Ukrainians are holding out for reunification with Russia

[Loki77]

56% of Ukrainians are holding out for reunification with Russia


More than half of Ukrainians are holding out for reunification with Russia. According to a recent opinion poll 56% of respondents conditioned their wellbeing on closer economic and cultural ties with neighboring Russia.
http://www.vor.ru/index_eng.phtml?view=news4_eng&id=1211

Ukranians prefer Russians.

[Sergei]

http://www.vor.ru/index_eng.phtml?view=news4_eng&id=1211

Ukranians prefer Russians.


Is it a surprise to you?

[Loki77]

Is it a surprise to you?

Yes. In Western Media always is placed that Ukranians hate Russians.

But I have a friend in my College that is Ukranian. She told me that Ukranians and Russians have a relation of love and distrust.

[Banko]

Yes. In Western Media always is placed that Ukranians hate Russians.

But I have a friend in my College that is Ukranian. She told me that Ukranians and Russians have a relation of love and distrust.
The only Ukrainian's that don't like Russians are the Western ones. Hell if you go to Lvov and 50% of the people there are too nationalistic and are quite moronic. They are just pissed off that Ukraine hasn't really produced anything, all the famous writers considered themselves Russian.

However Kiev and everything East of it likes Russia (Which is around 50% of Ukraine actually).

[Danik]

Would also be good to note that Ukraine holds the largest ethnic Russian minority in the world, so the East is all for it, and the West is against it.

[PIDARbIVSE]

Yes. In Western Media always is placed that Ukranians hate Russians.

You're brainwashed (by western media), indeed.

It is like this:

1) The majority of Ukrainians are pro-Russian.
2) The lesser part is pro Ukrainian independence with no real hate toward Russia.
3) The very small part of ukrainians don't like russians. They are in western part, and most of them were nazi collaborators during WW2 (Bandera, UNA UNSO, UPA).

[Loki77]

You're brainwashed (by western media), indeed.

It is like this:

1) The majority of Ukrainians are pro-Russian.
2) The lesser part is pro Ukrainian independence with no real hate toward Russia.
3) The very small part of ukrainians don't like russians. They are in western part, and most of them were nazi collaborators during WW2 (Bandera, UNA UNSO, UPA).


Thanx for information!

[fantomas]

I was in Kiev this past august, and people made it a point to speak ukrainian to me, not russian. Only after i looked at them with a blank stare did they start to understand that i dont speak ukrainian, but russian only.

Theres a lot of anti-russian resentement in ukraine, but historically the 2 nations are Slavic cousins, so its not hate, but just yearning to break out from underneath moscow's shadow.

[Schizo]

Yes. In Western Media always is placed that Ukranians hate Russians.

But I have a friend in my College that is Ukranian. She told me that Ukranians and Russians have a relation of love and distrust.

You can compare the Russian-Ukrainian relations of nowdays to your Scandinavian counterparts...quite similar actually...

[Thor]

They probably should split Ukraine into two parts.

[Schizo]

They probably should split Ukraine into two parts.

Western Ukraine would collapse, thank you very much... :|

[Sergei]

Yes. In Western Media always is placed that Ukranians hate Russians.

But I have a friend in my College that is Ukranian. She told me that Ukranians and Russians have a relation of love and distrust.

The western media purposefully plays this card in order to split one nation-two very close nations.
I can't speak of love and distrust as half of my relatives live in Russia and half of them live in Ukraine.

East and West Germans come to mind when they were artificially split into two countries.

[CPL Trevoga]

You can compare the Russian-Ukrainian relations of nowdays to your Scandinavian counterparts...quite similar actually...

Yeah very good comparison, it's similar to Nordic people.

[Pandy]

Yes. In Western Media always is placed that Ukranians hate Russians.

But I have a friend in my College that is Ukranian. She told me that Ukranians and Russians have a relation of love and distrust.

Sounds a lot like a loving relationship to me.

[BCE_CYKU]

I was in Kiev this past august, and people made it a point to speak ukrainian to me, not russian. Only after i looked at them with a blank stare did they start to understand that i dont speak ukrainian, but russian only.

Theres a lot of anti-russian resentement in ukraine, but historically the 2 nations are Slavic cousins, so its not hate, but just yearning to break out from underneath moscow's shadow.

yep, Kiev is getting more ukrainianized, Harkov and Donetsk are all pro russian, russian is spoken everywhere although the subway signs and ads were changed to ukrainian

but who gives a ****? Like my friend told me :ukrainian is the national language, but its not the native language

[Banko]

I was in Kiev this past august, and people made it a point to speak ukrainian to me, not russian. Only after i looked at them with a blank stare did they start to understand that i dont speak ukrainian, but russian only.

Theres a lot of anti-russian resentement in ukraine, but historically the 2 nations are Slavic cousins, so its not hate, but just yearning to break out from underneath moscow's shadow.
What parts of Kiev where you in? I was just in Kiev this August and that has never happened. Hell even at the market where you can hear the Ukrainian Russian accent and they didn't care.

[Russian_dude]

30% of Ukraine was GIVEN to it from Russia by Khruschev (an Ukrainian) I have NO problem with Ukraine being independent... But please, can we have Kharkov and Crimea back? They were NEVER Ukrainian territory or had ANY relation to Ukraine.

[Doublethinker]

Would also be good to note that Ukraine holds the largest ethnic Russian minority in the world, so the East is all for it, and the West is against it.

It is more complicated than that: the western part of Ukraine for the most part of its history was run by Poles, Germans and Austro-Hungarians.

While the eastern part was mainly run by Russians.

Ukrainians came to form a single nation only in the middle of the XXth Century - no wonder there's such a huge difference between eastern and western parts.

[Doublethinker]

30% of Ukraine was GIVEN to it from Russia by Khruschev (an Ukrainian) I have NO problem with Ukraine being independent... But please, can we have Kharkov and Crimea back? They were NEVER Ukrainian territory or had ANY relation to Ukraine.

Why do you want them? Would it somehow make you feel more importany?

History is history, get over it.

[Russian_dude]

1950s is not history. Besides those were highly industrylised zones, Russian people worked hard for them, why should a "samostiynaya" Ukraine get them for free? Britain didn't get over Falklands, Spain is still steaming about Gibraltar... Why should only the Russians "get over it".

[roland]

Good news for everybody, one potential problem solved.

But I would have prefered if the West had sold Ukraine to Russia instead of just giving it for free p-)

[Smersh]

30% of Ukraine was GIVEN to it from Russia by Khruschev (an Ukrainian) I have NO problem with Ukraine being independent... But please, can we have Kharkov and Crimea back? They were NEVER Ukrainian territory or had ANY relation to Ukraine.

This was while Ukraine and Russia made up one country. They shouldn't have disintergrated in the first place--then you would have these territorial,national, and ethnic problems and questions. People arguing over these issues which were decided during a different circumstances.

[Doublethinker]

1950s is not history. Besides those were highly industrylised zones, Russian people worked hard for them, why should a "samostiynaya" Ukraine get them for free?

Because we gave them away for free.

[Flamming_Python]

I was in Kiev this past august, and people made it a point to speak ukrainian to me, not russian. Only after i looked at them with a blank stare did they start to understand that i dont speak ukrainian, but russian only.

Theres a lot of anti-russian resentement in ukraine, but historically the 2 nations are Slavic cousins, so its not hate, but just yearning to break out from underneath moscow's shadow.

People in Kiev spoke Ukrainian quite a bit, even in the USSR (although Russian was still a very strong language there AFAIK, and still is now), so it's nothing new. There are many places in modern Russia where a language other than Russian is the dominant one. But between different ethinticities Russian is the dominant language.


It is more complicated than that: the western part of Ukraine for the most part of its history was run by Poles, Germans and Austro-Hungarians.

While the eastern part was mainly run by Russians.

Ukrainians came to form a single nation only in the middle of the XXth Century - no wonder there's such a huge difference between eastern and western parts.

Ruthenian/ Ukrainian cultural identity has been around for quite a while, a few centuries at least, although it has typically remained close to Russian identity.

In terms of "Ukranian" national identity, it started off in the XIX century AFAIK, but unity with Russia was still preferred; there was little nationalism among anyone other than the Cossack Atamans, Rich landowners and the far west of the country (mostly Lvov which was under Polish control for a long time). So much like it is now then :D


Good news for everybody, one potential problem solved.

But I would have prefered if the West had sold Ukraine to Russia instead of just giving it for free p-)

roflroflroflrofl

[Flamming_Python]

Double post sorry

[Sergei]

yep, Kiev is getting more ukrainianized, Harkov and Donetsk are all pro russian, russian is spoken everywhere although the subway signs and ads were changed to ukrainian

but who gives a ****? Like my friend told me :ukrainian is the national language, but its not the native language

Kiev is not getting more ukrainized, it is the capital flooded temporarily by west ukrainian villagers who think they "decided" something in the Orange coup-de-etat.
That's it. Once they get to Kiev, they start speaking russian.

The only impression is that all signs are in ukrainian, otherwise the city is as russian as it used to be.

I wouldn't be surprised if within a decade Russia will get bold enough to talk about a "split nation" like east and west Germany which finally reunited. I have lots of friends in east parts of Ukraine who think this will happen one day.

[Russian_dude]

Because we gave them away for free.


A Ukranian just changed the administration, Ukraine wasn not a country to be truly given something.

[kurlandlegionar]

So you can see, what is Russian chauvinism...:(

[Mr.K]

Western Ukraine would collapse, thank you very much... :|
And thats where Poles come in...

[daily666]

Why did you dig up a two year old thread? :roll:

[Mr.K]

Why did you dig up a two year old thread? :roll:
The Russia/Georgia conflict thread is exausted, and there is nothing new on MP.net entertainmentTV, so we play some re-runs p-)

[kurlandlegionar]

Why did you dig up a two year old thread? :roll:

I was searching for info and find this topic. There wasn't no good word about Ukrainians...so sorry.:oops:

[kurlandlegionar]

The Russia/Georgia conflict thread is exausted, and there is nothing new on MP.net entertainmentTV, so we play some re-runs p-)

Of course, I have spend many time in Russian forums, so I know all these opinions, nobody of boarder nations haven't their history, Belorussians, Ukrainians isn't nations, just Russians with dialect...so, nothing new I don't readp-)

Georgia made problem by self, so today they get back that.

[Kangars]

Visited Kiev in July. Russian language is dominating on the street, sometimes with Ukranian accent.
Kiev as a city doing much much better then Riga, nevermind we suppose to flourish in the EU. Some westerners on my flight where defenetly *** tourists (we loosing our market damn!). Noticed pro NATO propaganda on TV, never had it in Latvia or just dont remember.
My uncle lives in Crimea, works in the town Sudak major administration, to a question "Are you going to join Russia?" replied "Not now, maybe after 10 years when Russia will be strong!!!!!!!11111"

[kurlandlegionar]

Kiev are not all Ukraine:)
In Ukraine[visual] I felt like in Latvia before 10 years.

[Kangars]

Kiev are not all Ukraine:)
In Ukraine[visual] I felt like in Latvia before 10 years.

Riga is not all Latvia :)
You can fit all Latvian population in Kiev and some space will be left.

Point is Kiev without EU suppervision and subsidies doing better then Riga

[kurlandlegionar]

Riga is not all Latvia :)
You can fit all Latvian population in Kiev and some space will be left.

Point is Kiev without EU suppervision and subsidies doing better then Riga

Gde nas net, tam vsegda luche?:)


...Where we aren't, there always are better?

[Winger]

Ukraine should be left as is. Too many chefs running around with knives trying to slice the pie. Is it to hard to believe the ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukranians can't get along with the borders drawn as is?

After all, everybody and their brother has had a turn on calling these lands theirs. The Rus, then Ukranians, the Poles, the Lithuanians just to name a few. All a bunch of intermixed mutts if you go back far enough, like most of us. p-)

The West & Russia should just leave things be there. They seem to be getting allong OK.

[Ordie]

http://www.vor.ru/index_eng.phtml?view=news4_eng&id=1211

Ukranians prefer Russians.


Let me guess....the Eastern half.

I'm hungry for Chicken Kiev.

[Flamming_Python]

I think Ukraine should be left alone as well. But the government should stop trying to provoke Russia by joining NATO and Russians by instituting mandatory Ukrainian language in cinemas, on TV, etc... All of this is bound to breed resentment.

[Kaapeli]

I think Ukraine should be left alone as well. But the government should stop trying to provoke Russia by joining NATO and Russians by instituting mandatory Ukrainian language in cinemas, on TV, etc... All of this is bound to breed resentment.

Russian politicians (including Putin) are talking about annexing Ukraine's eastern parts and Crimea but you're saying that it's in fact Ukraine that provokes with NATO talk?
Don't you think they have a reason to be worried and seek for backup in the face of these threats and Russia's recent moves to aggressively split up other nations?

[Winger]

I think Ukraine should be left alone as well. But the government should stop trying to provoke Russia by joining NATO and Russians by instituting mandatory Ukrainian language in cinemas, on TV, etc... All of this is bound to breed resentment.

Some Ukranians have an interest in NATO for fear of Russia. Just look at Kazakhstan's behavior as a result of the incursion into Georgia. They are now marching to Putin's tune. I think if they truly want to be in NATO they should be heard. I don't however, think we should be actively trying to recruit them. I think Ukraine is better off not being in NATO with both NATO and Russia respecting it AS IS. Besides, they don't need to be in NATO to get help from NATO if they were ever coerced into seceding territory that is now theirs. The US might not go to war over Georgia, but the Ukraine is another story.

Putin and crew do need to tread lightly. Everyone "knows" he tried to or had a hand in having the current president assassinated and everyone knows that he wants certain lands back which are not theirs anymore. Hopefully they aren't trying to actively seed discord in Krymska, Donetska & Luhanska.

On the other hand I also think the government in Ukraine is too wise to fall for what Shaakashvilli fell for.

Over 78% of population is Ukrainian and 18% of population is Russian. There are 3 Oblasts out of the total of 25 in which over 50% of the population considers Russian its native tongue; Krymska, Donetska & Luhanska.

Ukraine is fine on its own and as is. Sorry if I seem biased toward Ukraine. We had a couple of Ukrainian exchange students at our Academy and we got to be really good associates. They brainwashed me with talk of cheap vodka and easy women. p-)

[0rphie]

Western Ukraine would collapse, thank you very much... :|
I believe that Poland will gladly annex Western Ukraine.

[Flamming_Python]

Russian politicians (including Putin) are talking about annexing Ukraine's eastern parts and Crimea but you're saying that it's in fact Ukraine that provokes with NATO talk?
Don't you think they have a reason to be worried and seek for backup in the face of these threats and Russia's recent moves to aggressively split up other nations?

I don't remember Putin talking about annexing Eastern Ukraine. The most high-profile statement I heard was from Luzhkov about Sevastopol rightfully belonging to Russia, but he is known as a populist.

I have no doubt these sort of issues will become more frequent, however it was American & Eastern European involvement that engineered this revolution in 2004 and put in place an irresponsible policy of seeking to antagonise Russia as much as possible and join NATO at all costs, even if the local population is against it and will only suffer from the ensuing conflict. Bringing a population into a political bloc against their will is reminiscent of Warsaw Pact attempts, in both cases the governments were legitimate, but ignored the actual concerns & will of the people, and justified this process by the end goal it was thought it would achieve; i.e. Democracy/Socialism.

Ukraine's population is splitting, whereas none of this rubbish was nearly as relevant 10 years ago. It wasn't Russia that initiated this revolution that threatens to destabilise the Ukraine.

[Flamming_Python]

Some Ukranians have an interest in NATO for fear of Russia. Just look at Kazakhstan's behavior as a result of the incursion into Georgia. They are now marching to Putin's tune. I think if they truly want to be in NATO they should be heard. I don't however, think we should be actively trying to recruit them. I think Ukraine is better off not being in NATO with both NATO and Russia respecting it AS IS. Besides, they don't need to be in NATO to get help from NATO if they were ever coerced into seceding territory that is now theirs. The US might not go to war over Georgia, but the Ukraine is another story.

Putin and crew do need to tread lightly. Everyone "knows" he tried to or had a hand in having the current president assassinated and everyone knows that he wants certain lands back which are not theirs anymore. Hopefully they aren't trying to actively seed discord in Krymska, Donetska & Luhanska.

On the other hand I also think the government in Ukraine is too wise to fall for what Shaakashvilli fell for.

Over 78% of population is Ukrainian and 18% of population is Russian. There are 3 Oblasts out of the total of 25 in which over 50% of the population considers Russian its native tongue; Krymska, Donetska & Luhanska.

Ukraine is fine on its own and as is. Sorry if I seem biased toward Ukraine. We had a couple of Ukrainian exchange students at our Academy and we got to be really good associates. They brainwashed me with talk of cheap vodka and easy women. p-)

lol Krymska, Donestska and Luhanska. I presume you mean Krym, Donetsk and Lugansk. I have never heard them called as Krymska, Donestska and Luhanska, not by Russians, not by Ukrainians. It has always remained our common land, home to both peoples, and everyone I know considers it as Russian as Voronezh or Vladimir. Actually when I was a kid I didn't differentiate between Ukrainian and Russian territories or people at all.

But now you have a bunch of phonies, who change the name, use some strange language and then proceed to see themselves as the rightful and exclusive owners, not the actual people who lived there for generations upon generations. How would you feel, I wonder, if I declared Floridavski independent, and told you were not welcome there anymore?

[Kaapeli]

I don't remember Putin talking about annexing Eastern Ukraine. The most high-profile statement I heard was from Luzhkov about Sevastopol rightfully belonging to Russia, but he is known as a populist.

I think he "warned" about Ukraine splitting if it joins NATO. Many see a veiled threat there.


I have no doubt these sort of issues will become more frequent, however it was American & Eastern European involvement that engineered this revolution in 2004 and put in place an irresponsible policy of seeking to antagonise Russia as much as possible and join NATO at all costs, even if the local population is against it and will only suffer from the ensuing conflict. Bringing a population into a political bloc against their will is reminiscent of Warsaw Pact attempts, in both cases the governments were legitimate, but ignored the actual concerns & will of the people, and justified this process by the end goal it was thought it would achieve; i.e. Democracy/Socialism.

Ukraine's population is splitting, whereas none of this rubbish was nearly as relevant 10 years ago. It wasn't Russia that initiated this revolution that threatens to destabilise the Ukraine.

Let's review what happened:
1. Ukraine has a presidental election
2. The winner is disputed because a major election fraud is reported
3. Some Ukranians protest peacefully
4. The Supreme Court decides there should be a new election
5. The other candidate wins that one fairly and lawfully

Looks like democracy, the rule of law and will of the people at work to me. Yet somehow you interpret this as a revolution initiated by Americans and other foreign powers.
How would it have been any less against the will of Ukrainians, more democratic and lawful if the fraudulent result had been accepted?

[Flamming_Python]

I think he "warned" about Ukraine splitting if it joins NATO. Many see a veiled threat there.

Let them see what they want. When Russia initiates a territorial claim against the Ukraine, then maybe you'll have a leg to stand on.


Let's review what happened:
1. Ukraine has a presidental election
2. The winner is disputed because a major election fraud is reported
3. Some Ukranians protest peacefully
4. The Supreme Court decides there should be a new election
5. The other candidate wins that one fairly and lawfullyThe problem is that this is all possible to set up. Major election fraud? When wasn't there a major election fraud in an ex-USSR country?

My point is that this wasn't a spontaneous sequence of events. It was engineered and went completely to plan.


Looks like democracy, the rule of law and will of the people at work to me. Yet somehow you interpret this as a revolution initiated by Americans and other foreign powers.
How would it have been any less against the will of Ukrainians, more democratic and lawful if the fraudulent result had been accepted?People are people, they get duped very easily. It wasn't the all-loving embrace of Uncle Sam and NATO that motivated people to come out of their homes and gather in the streets, it was the corruption and incompetence of the Kuchma government. The problem is that this revolution was hijacked from the very beggining. If people knew then that Yushchenko wasn't going to work for their interests but for American and Polish interests, he would have got then, about the same level of support he gets now; barely 10-15% of the population.

[Winger]

lol Krymska, Donestska and Luhanska. I presume you mean Krym, Donetsk and Lugansk. I have never heard them called as Krymska, Donestska and Luhanska, not by Russians, not by Ukrainians. It has always remained our common land, home to both peoples, and everyone I know considers it as Russian as Voronezh or Vladimir. Actually when I was a kid I didn't differentiate between Ukrainian and Russian territories or people at all.

But now you have a bunch of phonies, who change the name, use some strange language and then proceed to see themselves as the rightful and exclusive owners, not the actual people who lived there for generations upon generations. How would you feel, I wonder, if I declared Floridavski independent, and told you were not welcome there anymore?

Its not a matter of not being welcome. The ethnic Russians aren't being asked to leave.

[Flamming_Python]

Its not a matter of not being welcome. The ethnic Russians aren't being asked to leave.

However it is becoming less comfortable for Russians to feel Russian in the Ukraine. They must read in Ukainian, watch movies at the cinema in Ukrainian, do business in Ukrainian. And for what? Why do they own their state their loyalty; what does it have to offer in exchange for Ukrainisation and curtailing their cultural rights?

The last time this happened was in the 20's. Brezhnev was actually an ethnic Russian, who listed his ethnicity as Ukrainian, in order to avoid discrimination during his rise to power in the Ukrainian SSR.

[Kaapeli]

People are people, they get duped very easily. It wasn't the all-loving embrace of Uncle Sam and NATO that motivated people to come out of their homes and gather in the streets, it was the corruption and incompetence of the Kuchma government. The problem is that this revolution was hijacked from the very beggining. If people knew then that Yushchenko wasn't going to work for their interests but for American and Polish interests, he would have got then, about the same level of support he gets now; barely 10-15% of the population.

If the people are against Yuschenko now then why did his bloc win the 2007 September parliamentary elections clearly (48% vs 31%) 3 years after the presidental elections? Or has there been a major change in Ukrainian polls in 2008?

[Winger]

However it is becoming less comfortable for Russians to feel Russian in the Ukraine. They must read in Ukainian, watch movies at the cinema in Ukrainian, do business in Ukrainian. And for what? Why do they own their state their loyalty; what does it have to offer in exchange for Ukrainisation and curtailing their cultural rights?

The last time this happened was in the 20's. Brezhnev was actually an ethnic Russian, who listed his ethnicity as Ukrainian, in order to avoid discrimination during his rise to power in the Ukrainian SSR.

I can sympathize somewhat for them trying to reverse what happenend during the Soviet Union with the dying out of their language. I agree with you that imposing media restrictions on language type are ridiculous except for government and business. On that front, you have to be unified. Just like if I go to court here. The judges here speak only one language in the courts. Even in Floridavski p-) Anything else is unacceptable. Not the same situation I know but some parallels can be drawn.

[0rphie]

If the people are against Yuschenko now then why did his bloc win the 2007 September parliamentary elections clearly (48% vs 31%) 3 years after the presidental elections? Or has there been a major change in Ukrainian polls in 2008?
where did you get those numbers? U$chenko party got only 14%, while party of regions (pro Russian) got 34%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2007

[Kaapeli]

where did you get those numbers? U$chenko party got only 14%, while party of regions (pro Russian) got 34%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2007

You're right. My number was wrong. It's supposed to be 45%, not 48%

And I got the numbers from the coalition that supports Yuschenko's presidency and the "Orange Revolution" (Yulia Tymoshenko Bloc 30.71% + Our Ukraine–People's Self-Defense Bloc 14.15% = ~45%)

[Flamming_Python]

You're right. My number was wrong. It's supposed to be 45%, not 48%

And I got the numbers from the coalition that supports Yuschenko's presidency and the "Orange Revolution" (Yulia Tymoshenko Bloc 30.71% + Our Ukraine–People's Self-Defense Bloc 14.15% = ~45%)

Timoshenko is becoming more and more pro-Russian every day. This process has been going on for at least a year now.

The trouble with the Ukraine is that they have no credible politicians:

Yushchenko is a part-time CIA agent, part-time Ukrainian nationalist (I can't figure out if he is using nationalism to instate democracy, or democracy to instate nationalism in the Ukraine).

Timoshenko is a populist who owes her loyalty to the highest bidder.

Yanukovich is just a crook, plain and simple.

You have to understand that Ukrainians and Russians are very much a linked people. You have quite a broad spectrum in the Ukraine, from intense nationalist Ukrainians who owe allegiance to Kiev and view Russians as some alien, barbaric force from the steppes of Asia, to Ukrainians who are pro-Russian, speak Russian at home and see Moscow as a potentially better ruler than Kiev. Likewise there were plenty of ethnic Russians i'm sure who took part in the Orange revolution, not knowing the nationalist forces it would unleash that were until then kept hidden under the carpet.

Therefore any analysis of the pro-Russian forces in the Ukraine, should not be limited to just Krym, Donetsk and Lugansk where ethnic Russians are the majority, but also to many other areas in the East & South (Odessa, Kharkov, etc...), where pro-Russian sentiment is dominant despite Russians not forming a majority of the population there.

There were 2 discrete issues over the past 4 years. The first deals with Russia, and is a political issue concerning Russia's opposition to NATO membership. The second deals with Russians, and is a cultural issue concerning the rights of Russian-speakers to use Russian in all business, legal and beurocratic spheres in the Ukraine. Therein lies Yushchenko's mistake, in that ever since he came to power, he has alienated Ukraine's Russian-speaking population (both Russians and Ukrainians) so much, that now it is perceived that anything good for Russia (i.e. no NATO membership of the Ukraine, allowing Russian fleet to base in Sevastopol), is also good for Russian-speakers within the Ukraine. This was not completely the case 4 years ago, where many (although far from all) Russian-speakers were quite happy to owe their allegiance to Kiev so long as they weren't treated as a threat but an equal part of the Ukraine. Now it is too late, even if tommorow Yushchenko was to accept the Russian language, the people would still view him with too much suspicion and look towards the Russian Federation.

IMO, Yushchenko has dug his own grave, and discarded himself as a serious political force in the country. After this Georgia crisis, things look set to accelerate, with the Ukrainian government declaring that the South and East of the country should be patrolled with extra armed forces, putting pressure of the Russian Black Sea fleet, etc... If this Ukrainian nationalist current continues, the country would be in danger of splitting for real. The most realistic solution is for Timoshenko to ally with Yanukovich, withdraw plans for NATO membership, declare Russian language as at least a state language or regional language if not an official one, and try to mend ties with Moscow.

[Flamming_Python]

I can sympathize somewhat for them trying to reverse what happenend during the Soviet Union with the dying out of their language. I agree with you that imposing media restrictions on language type are ridiculous except for government and business. On that front, you have to be unified. Just like if I go to court here. The judges here speak only one language in the courts. Even in Floridavski p-) Anything else is unacceptable. Not the same situation I know but some parallels can be drawn.

Well in 'Krymska, Donetska & Luhanska' I don't ever remember Ukrainian being the dominant language, or people calling those places by those names.

In the meantime i'll go tell the judges in Floridavski that they are only allowed to speak Russian in the courts :D

[Thor]

The problem is that this is all possible to set up. Major election fraud? When wasn't there a major election fraud in an ex-USSR country?

My point is that this wasn't a spontaneous sequence of events. It was engineered and went completely to plan.
Did he poison himself as well? What can one say other than "through yourself you see others".

It's just a ridiculous conspiracy theory. But for the record:

All of the elections were monitored by a variety of independent international observers who passed their judgment. They were complemented by first-hand reports by journalists who said the same thing.

[Sergei]

I think he "warned" about Ukraine splitting if it joins NATO. Many see a veiled threat there.



Let's review what happened:
1. Ukraine has a presidental election
2. The winner is disputed because a major election fraud is reported
3. Some Ukranians protest peacefully
4. The Supreme Court decides there should be a new election
5. The other candidate wins that one fairly and lawfully

Looks like democracy, the rule of law and will of the people at work to me. Yet somehow you interpret this as a revolution initiated by Americans and other foreign powers.
How would it have been any less against the will of Ukrainians, more democratic and lawful if the fraudulent result had been accepted?

1.There is no such thing as 3rd tour in ukrianian presidential elections. Since both parties were guilty of vote rigging both USchenko and Yanukovich had to withdraw from presidential bid.
2. The rule of Supreme Court is unConstitutional because it violates Ukrainian Constitution. Everybody knows that judges in Supreme Court are on the take. The position is worth 30 mln bucks.
3. USchenko was pushed down everybody's throats despite half of ukrainians didn't vote for him and don't consider him president. The additional voting was also rigged by both parties so there is no way to find out who actually won.
As Joseph Stalin used to say "It doesn't really matter how people vote, it is important who counts the ballots".

[Sergei]

Its not a matter of not being welcome. The ethnic Russians aren't being asked to leave.

You are so wrong on this one.
There are more and more shizos in ukrainian ultra-nationalist government who are openly calling for russian speaking ukrainians and russians to pack their suitcases and leave for Russia. Despite the fact that these people are natives.

[Sergei]

If the people are against Yuschenko now then why did his bloc win the 2007 September parliamentary elections clearly (48% vs 31%) 3 years after the presidental elections? Or has there been a major change in Ukrainian polls in 2008?

It is much easier to rig the votes for "oranges" now.
In my district the votes were definetely rigged in favor of Tymoshenko. So no I don't believe in fair voting to appear in Ukraine any time soon. In fact that was my last I ever took part in that farce called "ukrainian elections".

[Berkut]

Exactly How Has the US Meddled in the Ukrainian Elections?

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD


Statement before the US House International Relations Committee, December 7, 2004

Mr. Chairman: President Bush said last week that, "Any election (in Ukraine), if there is one, ought to be free from any foreign influence." I agree with the president wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, it seems that several US government agencies saw things differently and sent US taxpayer dollars into Ukraine in attempt to influence the outcome.

We do not know exactly how many millions – or tens of millions – of dollars the United States government spent on the presidential election in Ukraine. We do know that much of that money was targeted to assist one particular candidate, and that through a series of cut-out non-governmental organizations (NGOs) – both American and Ukrainian – millions of dollars ended up in support of the presidential candidate, Viktor Yushchenko.

Let me add that I do not think we should be supporting either of the candidates. While I am certainly no supporter of Viktor Yushchenko, I am not a supporter of his opponent, Viktor Yanukovich, either. Simply, it is none of our business who the Ukrainian people select to be their president. And, if they feel the vote was not fair, it is up to them to work it out.

How did this one-sided US funding in Ukraine come about? While I am afraid we may have seen only the tip of the iceberg, one part that we do know thus far is that the US government, through the US Agency for International Development (USAID), granted millions of dollars to the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), which is administered by the US-based Freedom House.

PAUCI then sent US Government funds to numerous Ukrainian non-governmental organizations (NGOs). This would be bad enough and would in itself constitute meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation. But, what is worse is that many of these grantee organizations in Ukraine are blatantly in favor of presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko.

Consider the Ukrainian NGO International Center for Policy Studies. It is an organization funded by the U.S. government through PAUCI. On its Web site, we discover that this NGO was founded by George Soros' Open Society Institute. And further on we can see that Viktor Yushchenko himself sits on the advisory board!

And this NGO is not the only one the US government funds that is openly supportive of Viktor Yushchenko. The Western Ukraine Regional Training Center, as another example, features a prominent USAID logo on one side of its website's front page and an orange ribbon of the candidate Yushchenko's party and movement on the other. By their proximity, the message to Ukrainian readers is clear: the US government supports Yushchenko.

The Center for Political and Law Reforms, another Ukrainian NGO funded by the US government, features a link at the top of its website's front page to Viktor Yushchenko's personal website. Yushchenko's picture is at the top of this US government funded website.

This May, the Virginia-based private management consultancy Development Associates, Inc., was awarded $100 million by the US government "for strengthening national legislatures and other deliberative bodies worldwide." According to the organization's website, several million dollars from this went to Ukraine in advance of the elections.

As I have said, this may only be the tip of the iceberg. There may be many more such organizations involved in this twisted tale.

It is clear that a significant amount of US taxpayer dollars went to support one candidate in Ukraine. Recall how most of us felt when it became known that the Chinese government was trying to funnel campaign funding to a US presidential campaign. This foreign funding of American elections is rightly illegal. Yet, it appears that that is exactly what we are doing abroad. What we do not know, however, is just how much US government money was spent to influence the outcome of the Ukrainian election.

Dozens of organizations are granted funds under the PAUCI program alone, and this is only one of many programs that funneled dollars into Ukraine. We do not know how many millions of US taxpayer dollars the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) sent to Ukraine through NED's National Democratic Institute and International Republican Institute. Nor do we know how many other efforts, overt or covert, have been made to support one candidate over the other in Ukraine.

That is what I find so disturbing: there are so many cut-out organizations and sub-grantees that we have no idea how much US government money was really spent on Ukraine, and most importantly how it was spent. Perhaps the several examples of blatant partisan support that we have been able to uncover are but an anomaly. I believe Congress and the American taxpayers have a right to know. I believe we urgently need an investigation by the Government Accounting Office into how much US government money was spent in Ukraine and exactly how it was spent. I would hope very much for the support of Chairman Hyde, Chairman Lugar, Deputy Assistant Secretary Tefft, and my colleagues on the Committee in this request.

President Bush is absolutely correct: elections in Ukraine should be free of foreign influence. It is our job here and now to discover just how far we have violated this very important principle, and to cease any funding of political candidates or campaigns henceforth.

December 9, 2004

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul223.html

[matthew.manhorn]

In fact Ukrainians (the real ones) are very anti-Russian. Even the most non-slavic ex-soviet country Estonia has got a Russian population that dominates 1/3 of its own...imagine Ukraine...most Eastern Ukrainians are simply Moscovites, most pro-Russian "Ukrainians" we refer to are simply Russians with Ukrainian citizenship.

Eastern Ukraine is simply the next South Ossetia.

Most Russians I know don't really like Ukrainians as much as the Russian media portrays....

[widi243]

I believe that Poland will gladly annex Western Ukraine.

You are wrong

[matthew.manhorn]

Polish had always mistreated and discriminated the Ukrainians during their previous annexation.

[Switek]

Polish had always mistreated and discriminated the Ukrainians during their previous annexation.

BS! Soviet propaganda seems still alive. Ukrainians suffered the most during soviet regime and "golden" years of USSR. You should learn more.

[Wall]

Soviet propaganda seems still alive.
Surprise? :roll:

[Mamont]

BS! I would be carefull if i were you.


Soviet propaganda seems still alive.Seems as polish too.


Ukrainians suffered the most during soviet regime and "golden" years of USSR. You should learn more.You should too. When during polish rule ukrainians had own philology, own universities, literature? When during russian rule ethnic russians went to slaughter ethnic ukrainians and the other way around? How about forced polonisation, catolicism? How about denial of using ukrainian language? Closure of ukrainian schools? We have so many years and so many events.. Man, you know all this i bet, yet you write nonsense..

[Switek]

I would be carefull if i were you.

Russia strong crewmen have long hands? rofl


Seems as polish too.

O'rly?


You should too. When during polish rule ukrainians had own philology, own universities, literature?

They had their own language religion tradition and culture. Don't mix 16/17th century with 20th.


When during russian rule ethnic russians went to slaughter ethnic ukrainians and the other way around?

so how you name this:


From 1932-1933 millions of Ukrainians starved to death in a famine, known as the Holodomor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor). Modern scholarly estimates of the direct loss of human life due to the famine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine) range between 2.6 million [32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians#cite_note-Vallin-31)[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians#cite_note-Vallin2-32) and 3-3.5 million[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians#cite_note-HowMany-33) although much higher numbers are sometimes published in the media and cited in political debates.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians#cite_note-finn-34) As of March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March) 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008), the parliament of Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada) and the governments of several countries have recognized the Holodomor as an act of genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide).[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians#cite_note-countriesmar2008-35) :cantbeli:


How about forced polonisation, catolicism

As I stated earlier it's a part of soviet BS!



How about denial of using ukrainian language? Closure of ukrainian schools? We have so many years and so many events.. Man, you know all this i bet, yet you write nonsense..

Are you talking about Soviet Union 1945-1980?...

[Sergei]

In fact Ukrainians (the real ones) are very anti-Russian.


OMG, the "pearl of wisdom" in itself. Care to elaborate who the "real ones" are?

[Sergei]

BS! Soviet propaganda seems still alive. Ukrainians suffered the most during soviet regime and "golden" years of USSR. You should learn more.

:cantbeli:

Is this the reason why Ukraine had more than 10 rebellions against the Poles during 17-18 century?

Get your head out of your butt hole.

[MZKT]

BS! Soviet propaganda seems still alive. Ukrainians suffered the most during soviet regime and "golden" years of USSR. You should learn more.

So what did UPA retaliated for by murdering Poles in Wolhyn? During polish occupation of westukraine 1921-1939 Ukrainains were anything else but happy.

[Mamont]

They had their own language religion tradition and culture. Don't mix 16/17th century with 20th. I presume you want to tell me, that in 20th century it was better? Let's see: closure of ukrainian schools in Ternopol, Drogobych, Rogatyn etc in 1930, order from 1924 that forbid the use of any language other than polish on all goverment levels, ~100k polish officers that received over 600k hectares of land in Western Ukraine, "pacification" along with collective responsibility.. I think this is already enough..


so how you name this:It's a famine. Result of several causes, yet none of them ethnic. What do you still not understand it that event?


As I stated earlier it's a part of soviet BS!Well, well.. Let's just look at the most recent moments in occupied territories, just before the outbreak of ww2:
- "prometean" program
- actualisation of Sokal cordon
- widen regions of guculs and lemks
- search for descendants of polish shljahta among ukrainians for polonisation
- colonising ukrainian lands through "osadniki"
- "revindication" - 200 pravoslav chirches were destroyed(91 in Holmshina, in all 127 cult building were destroyed), 150 were turned to costiols (out of 389 pravoslav chirches in 1914 only 51 left in 1939)
- polish program about "enforcing polonisation in western-ukrainian land", accepted 18 march 1939.
Not to mention that there were constant fight between ukrainians and poles.


Are you talking about Soviet Union 1945-1980?...Switek, you already exposed your absence of knowledge about soviet time numerous times.. Yet still you write senseless comments. For your information, children in schools had ukrainian language and ukrainian literature as a neccessary subjects. In Ukraine you also had to pass exams in ukrainian language(and literature if needed) when entering university. In Transcarpathia during university exams you could write essay in russian, ukrainian or hungarian for example. In 1980 a "Vocabulary of a ukrainian language", an over 10 years lenght work, was published, it received State prize in 1983. Regarding actual teaching - my grandfather, ethnic russian, after entering university in 1950 simply couldn't finish it because of his limited knowledge of ukrainian language, especially in mathematic therminology.

Forgot about being carefull - it's not about strong/far reaching hand, it's about baseless statements. If you don't know something - at least pretend you tried to learn.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

East and West Germans come to mind when they were artificially split into two countries.Bad example, many west Germans don't like east Germans much at all. )

Common saying is build the wall again, three times as high and twice as wide. But west Germans would like to have those Baltic sea beaches for themselves though. And Dresden too.

[Jagdtiger]

this shows some dangerous tendencies
one super power is enough for the moment i believe

[Sergei]

Bad example, many west Germans don't like east Germans much at all. )

Common saying is build the wall again, three times as high and twice as wide. But west Germans would like to have those Baltic sea beaches for themselves though. And Dresden too.

Bad example, I might agree. There is less difference between people in Belgorod and Kharkov. This is just getting rediculous - this is used to be one region (Slobodzhanshina) for many centuries with people having same surnames, same family ties, etc. Now it is two countries separated by border and ever-hungry for a bribe ukrainian customs officers. People are already scratching their heads - is it really what we are looking for?

[Musashi]

It is more complicated than that: the western part of Ukraine for the most part of its history was run by Poles, Germans and Austro-Hungarians.

While the eastern part was mainly run by Russians.

Not quite. If you knew history better you would realise even central and most of eastern Ukraine was ruled by Poland or Grand Duchy of Lithuania for longer, than it was ruled by Russia.

I believe that Poland will gladly annex Western Ukraine.
What a BS!
There are almost no Poles in Western Ukraine. Besides we have a sufficient number of pay-me-I-am-poor regions in Poland. Your option is simply impossible. Our policy is to have the shortest border with Russia as possible, so annexing Western Ukraine would be against it.

[Sergei]

this shows some dangerous tendencies
one super power is enough for the moment i believe

One super power is not enough as it tends to abuse its power. Happened so many times in history.

[Musashi]

Polish had always mistreated and discriminated the Ukrainians during their previous annexation.
It depends what you mean, however you are partially right.
If you mean mistreatment of Ukrainian peasants in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth it is not the issue. Peasants were mistreated because of being peasants, not Ukrainians. Polish peasants were also mistreated in Poland and Russian peasats were mistreated in Russia even worse.
Remember that much greater number of Ukrainians died in 1931-1932 than during a few centuries of Polish oppression.

[daily666]

I agree with Musashi, Ukraine should be independent and I don't think there are any tendencies in Poland to get hand on western Ukraine. Also Poland shouldn't interfere in Ukrainian internal policies, it's too dangerous and some wounds are still unhealed.

And as for the original thread question, is that really the case that easteners would gladly join the Russian Federation? I think they're doing on their own preety well. Few of members of my family are doing business with Ukrainian people from that part and what they say is that incredible fortunes and wealth is to be found in the east. The average income is also higher there than in the west.

And if we talk about Polish annexation I think it's a bit of fault in thinking. Some forget that some parts of nowdays eastern Ukraine were simple a part of Poland (Polish Kingdom) for hundreds of years.

This is a map of 12th century Europe.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/europe_12thcentury_1884.jpg
15th Century
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/5414/Europe_15th_Small.jpg
17th Century
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/europe_1648_westphal_1884.jpg

The Polish frontiers have moved westward after the WWII and if you ask me it's actually a blessing for Poland and an unexpected gift from Stalin. But that's a story for another thread.

[Musashi]

Daily666, you should post a map from the time, when Kiev belonged to Poland (before 1669 IIRC).

[Sergei]

That map of 15th century is awesome. Republic of Novgorod sure was bigger than Muskovia.

[Doublethinker]

Poland sure used to be big.

Too bad that its democratical nature was more of a problem rather than blessing during the Age of Imperialism.

[daily666]

Poland sure used to be big.

Too bad that its democratical nature was more of a problem rather than blessing during the Age of Imperialism.

Agreed. It was more of a curse.

[Musashi]

Poland sure used to be big.

Too bad that its democratical nature was more of a problem rather than blessing during the Age of Imperialism.
I agree. Polish democracy for noblemen led to the total anarchy and collapse of the state. Polish kings did not have much power, they were just tools in noblemen's hands and were elected by the noblemen. Of course the noblemen used to elect such a king who gave them many privilleges and it had to end up bad for the state.
I see you are not braiwashed at least and you know quite much about history :hug:

Another two maps of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth including a map with the present borders.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Rzeczpospolita265.png/760px-Rzeczpospolita265.png


We must face the fact we were also bloody imperialists. We used to rule Tobago and Gambia ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Irp1635.png/765px-Irp1635.png

[Musashi]

Regarding Ukrainians, let them choose, what is good for them. If they want to be with Russia, it's their business, if they want to be a part of NATO, they are welcome.
Anybody who thinks, that Poland aims at regaining any part of our former territory is a brainwashed idiot. As I wrote above, it would make our border with Russia longer and it is definitely not our purpose ;)

EDIT
According to the Polish press, 47% of Ukrainians consider Russia a dangerous country for Ukraine and they think there might be a war with the 2 countries in the future. 56% of Ukrainians want to increase their defence budget.
Serhiy, is the Polish press wrong? ;)

[matthew.manhorn]

Saying that Russia's legitimate to annex Eastern Ukraine due to its Russian population is total BS, if so China can annex Vancouver as well.

[widi243]

Saying that Russia's legitimate to annex Eastern Ukraine due to its Russian population is total BS, if so China can annex Vancouver as well.

In China nobpody talks about Vancouver. If you ask about Taiwan you will find correct answer. And Russian politician are talking about annex of Crimea all the time. Secound sort of Russian politicians of course but it shows dispositions in Moscow very clear.

[Doublethinker]

I agree. Polish democracy for noblemen led to the total anarchy and collapse of the state. Polish kings did not have much power, they were just tools in noblemen's hands and were elected by the noblemen. Of course the noblemen used to elect such a king who gave them many privilleges and it had to end up bad for the state.
I see you are not braiwashed at least and you know quite much about history :hug:


Just read some interesting tidbits on history, including that of Poland.

Interesting period of history that was. I wonder, how the future of East Europe and the world would have played out, had Polish-Lithuania prevailed completely over Muscovia/Russia.



Another two maps of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth including a map with the present borders.


We must face the fact we were also bloody imperialists. We used to rule Tobago and Gambia ;)


Poland was also trying to colonize Liberia, if I'm not mistaken and even had a clash with the US over it prior to WWII.

[~~~~]

Poland was also trying to colonize Liberia, if I'm not mistaken and even had a clash with the US over it prior to WWII.

is this a joke or what?

[Karaahmetoglu]

30% of Ukraine was GIVEN to it from Russia by Khruschev (an Ukrainian) I have NO problem with Ukraine being independent... But please, can we have Kharkov and Crimea back? They were NEVER Ukrainian territory or had ANY relation to Ukraine.

Can I have Tatarstan back, Yakutia, Chuvasia, Tuva, Altai, Karacay? As these where never Russian Territory, or had any relation to Russia.

[Vorian]

Back where?

[AlexMartin2]

Can I have Tatarstan back, Yakutia, Chuvasia, Tuva, Altai, Karacay? As these where never Russian Territory, or had any relation to Russia.

Guys, you all forgot one small thing when you are trying to compare Russian-Ukranian territory "problem" with something like China-Vancouver, or Tatarstan-Turkey, or lets say Mongolia? :)

This problem is Russian-Ukrainian treaty of friendship, signed right after fall of Soviet Union. In this treaty Russia agreed that Crimea is Ukrainian region. And agreed that Sevastopol is Ukrainian also.
So, all what we have between Russia & Ukraine is that treaty. If this treaty would be breaked, Crimea & Sevastopol status would be legally disputed. Of course you can say that Ukraine had internationally agreed borders, but as we saw by Kosovo example, it doesn't matter anymore.

Recent Ukraine's actions to be in NATO and to make worse our mutual relations can give Russia reason to break the treaty.

If that happens, well, I dont know what will happen, but possibly Russia could append Crimea without Ukraine opinion.

[Snoshi]

This problem is Russian-Ukrainian treaty of friendship, signed right after fall of Soviet Union. In this treaty Russia agreed that Crimea is Ukrainian region. And agreed that Sevastopol is Ukrainian also.
So.. Georgia could not "break" the treaties that were signed after SU collapsed like the peacekeeper treaty etc.. But Russia can break treaties that concern large territoires?

[Codazo]

So.. Georgia could not "break" the treaties that were signed after SU collapsed like the peacekeeper treaty etc.. But Russia can break treaties that concern large territoires?
well it looks that way... having big guns helps in these situations.

[Kaapeli]

Recent Ukraine's actions to be in NATO and to make worse our mutual relations can give Russia reason to break the treaty.

If that happens, well, I dont know what will happen, but possibly Russia could append Crimea without Ukraine opinion.

You know what happens when a NATO member is attacked by someone? I assume you don't because you think that Russia would or could invade Ukraine after it joins NATO.

[AlexMartin2]

You know what happens when a NATO member is attacked by someone? I assume you don't because you think that Russia would or could invade Ukraine after it joins NATO.

The talk about it is pointless. Would NATO risk starting a nuclear war with Russia because of Ukraine, or would Russia risk starting a nuclear war with NATO because of Ukraine. How can we know the answer?

But I personally don't believe that Ukraine will join NATO. Not NATO interested in that (despite recent talks about it), not Ukraine will be interested in that after Uschenko lost his power next year.

[Flamming_Python]

Can I have Tatarstan back, Yakutia, Chuvasia, Tuva, Altai, Karacay? As these where never Russian Territory, or had any relation to Russia.

No. Most people there don't want to join a massive Turkic state. Sorry.

[Mr.K]

The talk about it is pointless. Would NATO risk starting a nuclear war with Russia because of Ukraine, or would Russia risk starting a nuclear war with NATO because of Ukraine. How can we know the answer?

But I personally don't believe that Ukraine will join NATO. Not NATO interested in that (despite recent talks about it), not Ukraine will be interested in that after Uschenko lost his power next year.

It's next year already? Sweet!
I expect lots of repression of the demostrators just like Saakashvili did, and "objective" election observers from Canada that have west-ukranian roots.

[Karaahmetoglu]

No. Most people there don't want to join a massive Turkic state. Sorry.


Ahh no most I talk to wish there was a great Turkic country and they say they are sick and tired of living on Russian rule.

[AlexMartin2]

Ahh no most I talk to wish there was a great Turkic country and they say they are sick and tired of living on Russian rule.

Kypchak are you sure you talked with people from Russia? Maybe they were from former SU republics? :)

[Karaahmetoglu]

No my aunt is a Tatar, I know a lot of Tatars I know Karacays, Nogays. don't know many from Yakutia though.

[Flamming_Python]

No my aunt is a Tatar, I know a lot of Tatars I know Karacays, Nogays. don't know many from Yakutia though.

I have talked to many Tatars, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Azeri's, etc... and I have never heard that crap before in my life.

Central Asian Turkics are usually pro-Russian (soviet mentality) as are Volga Turkics, Caucasian Turkics are usually anti-Russian, very nationalistic, but still I have never heard anyone brining up the idea of joining with Turkey to form a great empire.

[Doublethinker]

I have talked to many Tatars, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Azeri's, etc... and I have never heard that crap before in my life.

Central Asian Turkics are usually pro-Russian (soviet mentality) as are Volga Turkics, Caucasian Turkics are usually anti-Russian, very nationalistic, but still I have never heard anyone brining up the idea of joining with Turkey to form a great empire.

Well, you've heard a turk do the talking. Ain't it good enough? p-)

[Karaahmetoglu]

I have talked to many Tatars, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Azeri's, etc... and I have never heard that crap before in my life.

Central Asian Turkics are usually pro-Russian (soviet mentality) as are Volga Turkics, Caucasian Turkics are usually anti-Russian, very nationalistic, but still I have never heard anyone brining up the idea of joining with Turkey to form a great empire.


Well i have talked to many many Turks outside of Turkey and I found more of them that want Turan then many Turks in Turkey. I say Turan to some Turks in Turkey and they say I am a fool for wanting it. The ones outside of Turkey tell me there plans on how to create Turan. Kazkhs are surprisingly pro Turan. There are more Turan websites in Russian now then there where of Turkish.

[Doublethinker]

Well i have talked to many many Turks outside of Turkey and I found more of them that want Turan then many Turks in Turkey. I say Turan to some Turks in Turkey and they say I am a fool for wanting it. The ones outside of Turkey tell me there plans on how to create Turan. Kazkhs are surprisingly pro Turan. There are more Turan websites in Russian now then there where of Turkish.

good job. Please, continue this wonderful exercise in futility.

[Karaahmetoglu]

good job. Please, continue this wonderful exercise in futility.

Effort is not useless it is working, it is just going to take time, and the real problem is the Turks inside Turkey not enough from them is being done.

[widi243]

The talk about it is pointless. Would NATO risk starting a nuclear war with Russia because of Ukraine, or would Russia risk starting a nuclear war with NATO because of Ukraine. How can we know the answer?

But I personally don't believe that Ukraine will join NATO. Not NATO interested in that (despite recent talks about it), not Ukraine will be interested in that after Uschenko lost his power next year.

In that matter you have fifty/fifty chance that nato woudn't react maybe from your point of view it's enough to take that chance. But from the other side you have another fifty/fifty chance that NATO will react and what happen then?? NATO kick your ass or you start use nukes and respond of NATO will be the same. Are you ready to escalate this conflict to this level ?? I think if you have children you don't. And maybe In Your country your internal law means nothing but in the Western countrys people are treatig their internal law much seriously. And in most NATO countries Article 5 and the hall NATO treaty is concern of theirs interior law's. Don't mntion about credibility of NATO which is a pillar of western security system. If you think taht NATO only smiles and step down because of mighty Russia annexing large part teritory of their mambers you can be suprised.

[KilRemgor]

widi243 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=30768)> Unfortunately there's just a global West-vs-East misunderstanding going on.
Westerners, in general (with few examples though), value life and associated virtues (freedom, education, ...) above "The Idea".
Easterners often value "The Idea" more than their lives; remember China's 'Great Leap Forward', Japan's kamikaze, Stalin's (georgian origin) 'No Step Back' order during WWII, and many more; even recent readiness in Middle East to nuke and get subjected to nuking for ethic hatred and 'Great Imam'.
Russia is a mix of West and East, but it is sufficiently East to try to prove a point disregarding consequences and losses.
China can do this as well, having "The Party" and "The Idea" at its finest.
That's one of the factors explaining for example why France surrendered during WWII, while Iraqis do suicide bombings on Coalition troops. Different values there.
It's also the reason why any West-East relation ideally should be well-thought and with respect to others' principles and ways of life. Since when 'The Idea' and 'The Freedom' collide... things get bad.