and now for something completely diferent, north Jenin

[gilgoul]

http://community.webshots.com/s/image13/2/88/29/134728829QyUszn_ph.jpg

Merkava 3 baz

http://community.webshots.com/s/image8/2/88/20/134728820edaJZG_ph.jpg

outpost

http://community.webshots.com/s/image11/2/88/72/134728872qPShaV_ph.jpg

in position

http://community.webshots.com/s/image13/2/89/27/134728927AtxFsP_ph.jpg

on m113


http://community.webshots.com/s/image12/2/89/40/134728940PsFSrL_ph.jpg

[Marmot1]

ooopps, pics to come
WTF?

[Javehn]

ooopps, pics to come
WTF?

STFU

[Operation Ivy]

woot

Lookin good in that M113 :D

[born_to_kill]

Forbidden
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Anyone else get that??

[ariweiner]

Interesting thing about Jenin was how a few ill-equipped gunmen were able to keep the entire Israeli army at bay for a significant length of time and they only retreated when their ammo ran out. Mofaz personally had to involve himself.

rofl rofl rofl

[Uninen]

I get forbidden..... :( No pics.......

[Javehn]

Interesting thing about Jenin was how a few ill-equipped gunmen were able to keep the entire Israeli army at bay for a significant length of time and they only retreated when their ammo ran out. Mofaz personally had to involve himself.

rofl rofl rofl

This entire forum is rewriting history , and fool of "i know it" idiots. Make i did a mistake to come back here . Shurely not a good place to post anything . And that's after i sat like a morron and tranlated information from Hebrew about this matter for this dumb forum , wasting hours for hours .

[ariweiner]

Jenin Inquiry Report (http://www.jenininquiry.org/Jenin%20Inquiry%20Report.pdf)

[Javehn]

Read that long time ago . Here is a bit more reliable information , i translated it (only part of the information ) , in this thread .

And you see, unlike you i know what's a fighting with Gorrilla forces mean , and how all technological advances dessepear . Apparantly you don't know **** , with your ****ing smillies .

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12344

[ariweiner]

Here is a bit more reliable information

From the Israeli Intelligence Center? Don't make me laugh.

[big80a2]

maybe this helps for those not able to see the pics:

http://community.webshots.com/album/134728411JmxReG

[Javehn]

Here is a bit more reliable information

From the Israeli Intelligence Center? Don't make me laugh.

Yes , and your source is faaaaar more reliable :roll:
No , don't make ME laugh
That's independent research center , you idiot , not what you think .

[Rantanplan]

Forbidden
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Apache/2.0.48 Server at community.webshots.com Port 80

Anyone else get that??


same here

[hey]

the entire Israeli army

ariweiner, Do you realy belive that some compneys of the Golany brigade+ few reservist units are the entire Israeli army ?
This qeustions the whole reliablety of your source.

[big80a2]

http://community.webshots.com/s/image13/2/88/29/134728829QyUszn_ph.jpg

Merkava 3 baz

http://community.webshots.com/s/image8/2/88/20/134728820edaJZG_ph.jpg

outpost

http://community.webshots.com/s/image11/2/88/72/134728872qPShaV_ph.jpg

in position

http://community.webshots.com/s/image13/2/89/27/134728927AtxFsP_ph.jpg

on m113


http://community.webshots.com/s/image12/2/89/40/134728940PsFSrL_ph.jpg

Gilgoul, I have a couple of questions:

Are you a riding the M113 technical vehicle??

and:

The merkava 3 seems to be a bit stript..... only one MG, you have some explanation for that?
Also it looks like a MK3 presented at the LIC show is that true???
(I like that one (LIC) it has this fireing port in the backdoor and the 360 degrees panorama camera on top woot woot )

thankzz

[hey]

born_to_kill wrote:

Quote:
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Apache/2.0.48 Server at community.webshots.com Port 80


Anyone else get that??


same here

and here

[big80a2]

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /s/image8/2/88/20/134728820edaJZG_ph.jpg on this server.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apache/2.0.48 Server at community.webshots.com Port 80

Anyone else get that??


same here

try this link:
http://community.webshots.com/album/134728411JmxReG

[ariweiner]

It doesn't look so independent to me. Why not go for the Human Rights organizations and the UN.

B'tselem (http://www.labournet.net/world/0204/palest12.html)

Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/)

The UN report (http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/)

[Javehn]

I am not answering any question about Merkava , until winner here would explain me how ENTIRE , AND THE WHOLE IDF ARMY WITH EVERY SINGLE RESERVE OF IT was stoped by those poor equipted , but determined freedom fighters in Jenin .


It doesn't look so independent to me. Why not go for the Human Rights organizations and the UN.

Ah , so now you will start telling me , is it independent or not . Offcorse , you know it better then me . Why not read Betselem , and to desert with Amnesty, they shure know what they talk about , even if they haven't been in the city one time in the operation .


You know what actually ? Don't answer me . I think this will not contribute to me or anyone , and perhaps i really should leave this forum , this time forever .

****ing forum .

[big80a2]

It doesn't look so independent to me. Why not go for the Human Rights organizations and the UN.

B'tselem (http://www.labournet.net/world/0204/palest12.html)

Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/)

The UN report (http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/)

about the UN stuff .... didn't they say it wasn't that bad at all and look at your one link to them and read it!!!

from the UN link:

The report was written without a visit to Jenin or the other Palestinian cities in question and it therefore relies completely on available resources and information, including submissions from five United Nations Member States and Observer Missions, documents in the public domain and papers submitted by non-governmental organizations

well they sure know it good :roll: :roll:

[big80a2]

I am not answering any question about Merkava , until winner here would explain me how ENTIRE , AND THE WHOLE IDF ARMY WITH EVERY SINGLE RESERVE OF IT was stoped by those poor equipted , but determined freedom fighters in Jenin .


It doesn't look so independent to me. Why not go for the Human Rights organizations and the UN.

Ah , so now you will start telling me , is it independent or not . Offcorse , you know it better then me . Why not read Betselem , and to desert with Amnesty, they shure know what they talk about , even if they haven't been in the city one time in the operation .


You know what actually ? Don't answer me . I think this will not contribute to me or anyone , and perhaps i really should leave this forum , this time forever .

f*** forum .

HEY DON"T LEAVE !!!!
your tha man woot woot

[ariweiner]

how ENTIRE , AND THE WHOLE IDF ARMY WITH EVERY SINGLE RESERVE OF IT

It was a figure of speech. It was "whatever the Israeli's threw at them" which I think could be called "Israel's military might."


well they sure know it good

The reason for that was the the UN was prevented by the Israeli's from entering Jenin...now why on earth would they do that?
:roll:

[hey]

now why on earth would they do that?

to save thier ****ing life!!!
It's unbelievable. how stupid a man can be??!!!

[Javehn]

The reason for that was the the UN was prevented by the Israeli's from entering Jenin...now why on earth would they do that?


You know who would blame , if they would be get in cross fire ?? That's right you guessed it , IDF . You know what would happend if they pass IDF movement info ? That's right , nothing good .

You know what is that ? That's my Ethical code book . Every combatant soldier in IDF have one . 22 soldiers in Jenin didn't die because they were forced to search from house to house , and not use heavy equipment at first . They didn't die later to be accused in cleansing . One of our bttl . Co's wasn't shot on the streets while he helped evacuated little children from the scene of fighting , and got shot by Palestinan sniper , so you , Marmot1 or Mustamato or whoever whould **** on their jobs and names .
People didn't fought in inpossible condittions in order to preserve the moral , so half of the world would accuse us without a stop. I take my Ethical code seriously .

I want take that **** from no one , ever , and you can find another one to "debate " on those matters .


http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/etical.jpg

[ariweiner]

You know who would blame , if they would be get in cross fire?

Ooh cross fire? This was AFTER the Israeli military operation. The only reason was that Israel sought to cover up the atrocities committed by it's forces.

[big80a2]

you know what I think since all the critizism on IDF operations in Jenin.
That the air strike on militants has rissen because of critizism in the world and the death of so many soldiers. The airstrikes make less damage in total (some here still don't believe). And there for all critizism also led to these airstrike.
So the point:
mustamato and marot, ariweiner and others somehow helpt in the choise of tactics to eliminate terrorists..... so maybe when you condem these strikes on the way they are being used.... you contributed

[gilgoul]

http://community.webshots.com/s/image13/2/88/29/134728829QyUszn_ph.jpg

Merkava 3 baz

http://community.webshots.com/s/image8/2/88/20/134728820edaJZG_ph.jpg

outpost

http://community.webshots.com/s/image11/2/88/72/134728872qPShaV_ph.jpg

in position

http://community.webshots.com/s/image13/2/89/27/134728927AtxFsP_ph.jpg

on m113


http://community.webshots.com/s/image12/2/89/40/134728940PsFSrL_ph.jpg

Gilgoul, I have a couple of questions:

Are you a riding the M113 technical vehicle??

and:

The merkava 3 seems to be a bit stript..... only one MG, you have some explanation for that?
Also it looks like a MK3 presented at the LIC show is that true???
(I like that one (LIC) it has this fireing port in the backdoor and the 360 degrees panorama camera on top woot woot )

thankzz


Yes it`s me :oops: on the m113, thing that I don`t like that much actually, it`s a real bullet magnet, but I was there on a static to secure a transit area next to some check point.

About the tanks, I am not a tankist, my job was recon, not sitting on a confy chair in a climatized 15 million $ box (no offense javhen and op Ivy woot , just kiddin, respect to the tankists)
I actually just had a ride in one of those big toys, and i can tell you one thing, you feel much more secure than in the soap box that is the m113, even the surprotected one. p-)

[Javehn]

About the tanks, I am not a tankist, my job was recon, not sitting on a confy chair in a climatized 15 million $ box (no offense javhen and op Ivy , just kiddin, respect to the tankists)


Yes , but some guys (hhmhmhm) have to stick their god damn heads outside , and all the armor , chairs and conditioners don't help much when a sniper with a big gun makes a move . And i have no respect for those who keep their bodies inside , they are not real tankers for me . ;)

Sorry for off topic . woot

[IDFM203]

Yes it`s me :oops: on the m113, If that’s you then who is the soldier in your avatar pic? p-)

Shalom :D

[gilgoul]

Yes it`s me :oops: on the m113, If that’s you then who is the soldier in your avatar pic? p-)

Shalom :D

Me too, more than a year ago, when my hairdresser was still alive p-)

Ahlan

[IDFM203]

About the tanks, I am not a tankist, my job was recon, not sitting on a confy chair in a climatized 15 million $ box (no offense javhen and op Ivy woot , just kiddin, respect to the tankists)

haha :D this reminds me of a story one of my commanders in basic training told me when once in "emun" (advanced training) after a long combined exercise with tanks, and after storming the "enemy" positions on foot, he was exhausted and breathing heavily and was almost out of breath etc...and was standing next to a tank and all of a sudden he heard inside the tank the "whoosh" sound, you know the sound of opening a can of soda :D

Boy you gotta love those tankers p-)

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Ok guys , that's really not fair , some people have a life here and they must run away :lol:
Unfortunatly i can't comment this one , but wait for tommorow , for Tankers anger .

[gilgoul]

Ok guys , that's really not fair , some people have a life here and they must run away :lol:
Unfortunatly i can't comment this one , but wait for tommorow , for Tankers anger .


woot woot woot woot woot

me too have to go out, mike`s place, here i am p-) p-) p-)

[S'13]

Interesting thing about Jenin was how a few ill-equipped gunmen were able to keep the entire Israeli army at bay for a significant length of time and they only retreated when their ammo ran out. Mofaz personally had to involve himself.

rofl rofl rofl

Yes just like the Jenin "massacre" and other Jenin myths... :cantbeli: :lol:



What happened during the battle of Jenin in April 2002?

On April 3, 2002 Israeli troops, tanks and helicopters surrounded the area of Jenin in the northern West Bank, part of Israel's Operation Defensive Shield that followed a series of deadly bombings against civilians in Israel. Many Palestinian suicide bombers had originated from the refugee camp at Jenin and the Israeli army was determined to "smoke out the terrorist nest". Nine days of ferocious fighting followed.

Anti-Israel media sources in the Middle East and Europe, and to a lesser extent elsewhere in the world, had a field day. Headlines screamed "Massacre", "War Crimes", "Atrocities", "Genocide" and worse. Every unsubstantiated rumor of Israeli misdeeds was given the status of truth as reporters looked for the big story they were convinced was happening. Palestinian sources were quoted without any fact checking while Israeli versions went unreported.

For example, Nasser al-Kidwa, the Palestinian representative to the United Nations, was given time on CNN to say:
There's almost a massacre now taking place in Jenin. Helicopter gun ships are throwing missiles at one square kilometer packed with almost 15,000 people in a refugee camp. . . . Just look at the TV and watch, watch what the--what the Israel forces are doing. . . . This is a war crime, clear war crime, witnessed by the whole world, preventing ambulances, preventing people from being buried. I mean this is an all-out assault against the whole population.

Adding fuel to the fire, the Palestinian Arab mayor of Jenin stated:
What I saw with my own eyes can't be described with words, I just can't understand how human beings are capable of committing nefarious crimes as such. ... decomposed bodies of children and old people were scattered everywhere and two thirds of the camp has been reduced to rubble.

But when the fighting ended, quite a different picture emerged. Witnesses observed that the town of Jenin was untouched and most of the refugee camp was at most lightly damaged (See photo on this page and Sources below). Only the terrorist center of the camp, where intense house-to-house fighting took place, was extensively damaged.

From the Boston Globe, April 29, 2002:
Palestinian Authority allegations that a large-scale massacre of civilians was committed by Israeli troops during their invasion of the refugee camp here appear to be crumbling under the weight of eyewitness accounts from Palestinian fighters who participated in the battle and camp residents who remained in their homes until the final hours of the fighting. In interviews yesterday with teenage fighters, a leader of Islamic Jihad, an elderly man whose home was at the center of the fighting, and other Palestinian residents, all of whom were in the camp during the battle, none reported seeing large numbers of civilians killed.
The final toll of the battle was 52 to 56 Palestinian Arabs dead, mostly armed fighters, while Israel lost 23 of their soldiers. A tough urban pitched battle, but in no way a massacre.

United Press International (UPI) published a three part series of articles (see Sources below) examining the media's treatment of the phony Jenin massacre story, describing how the US news outlets did relatively well in containing the false rumors while their uncritical acceptance constituted a "humiliation for Western European governments and left-leaning media leaders."

The after-battle reports made clear that the IDF took great care to avoid civilian casualties, the opposite of Palestinian claims, and took higher Israeli casualties as a result. When faced with strong resistence in a congested urban area filled with explosives, snipers, and ****y-traps the easy course for Israel would have been a massive air attack to flatten the area. Instead, the IDF engaged the terrorists in house-to-house fighting that spared civilians as much as possible. Non-combatant casualties would have been even lower if the Palestinian terrorists had not used civilians as shields and decoys.

Initially the United Nations called for an investigation of Israel's actions in Jenin, but dropped the probe when it became clear that there was no massacre or atrocities. In counterpoint, American congressmen and others called for an investigation of the United Nations whose UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) was in charge of the Jenin refugee camp. How did Jenin become a world center for recruiting and training suicide bombers under UN supervision?

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_jenin_2002.php

[TALOS]

what I would like to know is how do they say mostly civilians in the report ari had? I mean really, do civilians look different when they are dead?
If it is a little baby or really young child ok, but I have seen pictures of fairly young children armed with rifles and pistols shooting at the israelis.
Also I have seen pictures of older people shooting at them. Not to say civilians werent killed but the fighters imbedded themselves in amongst "civilians" who screened them. There have been repeated photos here of young children all around palestinian gunmen who are at that moment engaging the Israelis. So go figure, some civilians are gonna ger killed. Maybe when the Pal parents start loving their children they wont let them go to the battle lines.

[Undo]

Yes it`s me :oops: on the m113, thing that I don`t like that much actually, it`s a real bullet magnet, but I was there on a static to secure a transit area next to some check point.


Couldn't agree more with you. The non Isreali 113 is even scarier. Spalling from even 7.62 sometimes.

[One?]

Just end the fighting already. Holy **** do people have to start fighting in every thread. No one knows what happened in Jenin each side says its own story. So it will remain a myth.


The fighters held the idf longer than the arabs in the 6 day war. But thats because they were fighting in a very dense urban area. You can't just drive a tank around a 1KM camp.

[el_kab0ng]

Christ...the point counter-point nonsense in here is as bad as reading the tons of debunks of Micheal Moore and his bull**** Bowling for Columbine.

The point here is, I really wish more people would do research on a topic before they go spouting off about what they claim to "know".

I'm a non-jewish American who supports Israel's right to defend itself from ALL attacks. I've felt that way for years now, and I've never once felt that Israel has lost control of it's forces as a whole. I for one respect the IDF for it's great restraint in keeping Arafat alive when so many others wanted him dead. Granted, the Palestinians have endured some hardships, but let's wipe out 6 million Palestinians and then tell them what to do.

Some would say that Palestinians were there before the Jews, so why should they leave? Well, to them I say you had your chance...twice...and you blew it both times. If you don't like it, either try again or get out... But don't complain when you blow yourselves up and then get the wrath of the IDF. What would YOU do in Israel's situation? I know of several cases where Palestinians have left Israel and done very well for themselves in other countries.

I for one have no say in Israel's affairs, so I can only hope that the Jewish state is doing what it feels best for their country. I only wish some of you would see that about America and leave us the hell alone about our own affairs. If you can't vote in this country, you can't change anything. You are entitled to your opinions on this forum because as Americans we give you that right that we were born with. But for those that have nothing but hatred for America, you could spout your nonsense somewhere else.

Now that the US has suffered the same sort of loses as Israel over the years, American opinion has changed quite drastically. For some of us, it's nothing but a series of "I told you so's".

[AirZone]

Christ...the point counter-point nonsense in here is as bad as reading the tons of debunks of Micheal Moore and his bull**** Bowling for Columbine.

The point here is, I really wish more people would do research on a topic before they go spouting off about what they claim to "know".

I'm a non-jewish American who supports Israel's right to defend itself from ALL attacks. I've felt that way for years now, and I've never once felt that Israel has lost control of it's forces as a whole. I for one respect the IDF for it's great restraint in keeping Arafat alive when so many others wanted him dead. Granted, the Palestinians have endured some hardships, but let's wipe out 6 million Palestinians and then tell them what to do.

Some would say that Palestinians were there before the Jews, so why should they leave? Well, to them I say you had your chance...twice...and you blew it both times. If you don't like it, either try again or get out... But don't complain when you blow yourselves up and then get the wrath of the IDF. What would YOU do in Israel's situation? I know of several cases where Palestinians have left Israel and done very well for themselves in other countries.

I for one have no say in Israel's affairs, so I can only hope that the Jewish state is doing what it feels best for their country. I only wish some of you would see that about America and leave us the hell alone about our own affairs. If you can't vote in this country, you can't change anything. You are entitled to your opinions on this forum because as Americans we give you that right that we were born with. But for those that have nothing but hatred for America, you could spout your nonsense somewhere else.

Now that the US has suffered the same sort of loses as Israel over the years, American opinion has changed quite drastically. For some of us, it's nothing but a series of "I told you so's". hehe thanks buddy nice to hear some one that still with us :hug: woot

anyway thats why i dont answer to all those trolls. did thier friend got killed by some insane terrorist in a bus.. or a coffe shop or in a night club each... (i personally knew 2 girls in KAV 37 bus suicide bombing.. one died another wounded with medium injuries if im not wrong)

anyway all the trolls know like everything... they WERE in jenin they saw everything... FFS guys shut the **** up you read info from peeps that werent in there and those who were in there said it wasnt a massacre

and you know what really piss me off ?

while the french had a very ugly war with algeria
or while euro countries thought they could wipe us out
or while USA (with all due respect mates) killing more unarmed peeps in a week then we killed in a month

and and and...

if you ask me if IDF werent that human we could have ended this conflict long time ago with couple of Merkava's and F-15/F-16 to finish the job and some artillery work... but we are HUMANs not like those guys in euro countries that want oil for themself so they condem us

I want to see what you will feel when every day some one dies from a terrorist acts people you know... when you dont feel safe walking in the street FFS !!!! i want to see your army being so human without wiping thier ass like every other country in the world did in a very ugly way...

****ING HYPOCRITES.. you live in your house infront in your pc without any problems about terrorists as such you read/see the news and you think you know everything

FFS.. thats why i hate europes they think they know all for themself (and sorry for i say europes... i mean some of them in the forum not all of you are bad some of you are realistic like the rest of the world)