Ossetia, and the truth about it

[Alan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVpRr4JL5Eo

It's in Russian. It's the first video thread I'm making. I don't have the nessesary skills to translate it, but if somebody could, I'd be grateful.

For those that speak Russian, toyu might also want to see this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYQSIa1RUAs

I realise this isn't a well known conflict, but to be honest, this is the only one I honestlt give a damn about.

Thank you and have a good day.

[Ceriy]

I find it interesting that russia cares about lives of people in Georgia, but cant keep peace in Chechnya.

[nick_ua]

but cant keep peace in Chechnya.
can u be a bit more specific on how exactly you got to this point

[Grach]

I find it interesting that russia cares about lives of people in Georgia, but cant keep peace in Chechnya.
I don't see any logic in your statement. Elaborate please.

[Angrykirill]

I find it interesting that russia cares about lives of people in Georgia, but cant keep peace in Chechnya.

I think you should get out of this thread, besides looking at your location it would be best for you just to shut the **** up. Let's just look at the pictures now without all this "my e***** is bigger" crap

[DaGreatRV]

I find it interesting that russia cares about lives of people in Georgia, but cant keep peace in Chechnya.


I think teh RuSSiaStr0ngz!!11!! members caught your flame bait.


Good luck! :cantbeli:

[Grach]

I think teh RuSSiaStr0ngz!!11!! members caught your flame bait.


Good luck! :cantbeli:
Hush!!! It's a counter-bait! :)

[mannelig]

I find it interesting that russia cares about lives of people in Georgia, but cant keep peace in Chechnya.

Sounds same as "I find it interesting that America cares about lives of people all over the world, but cant keep peace in Iraq."

This is each other`s sick callus, maybe it would be better not to step on it?
Peace, guys:)

[Canuck Farrier]

Chechnya is a hell of alot more peaceful than it used to be.USA has alot of work ahead of them in Iraq to have any sort of peace comparable to Chechnya right now.Hopefully one day.!

[M4ko]

Even though its obvious that Georiga doesnt want Ossetia to separate from it and will try to prevent it, you should still not take those news reports seriously where one side is demonized and other is sanctified.

[Scrat335]

Could you guys write up some history and info on this? About all we have access to here in the west is what we are fed. I can find some facts on english websites but it is very hard to get good info.

As far as I know now, The S Ossetians (in Georgia) want to go with the north and Russia but the Georgians don't want to give them their independance. Just what is the situation there now?

Any history sites? I speak good Russian but I need to learn to read better and have a hard time understanding different dialects. Especially when they speak fast.

[Scrat335]

A question. Just how much value is the Ossetians lands to Georgia?

[M4ko]

Could you guys write up some history and info on this? About all we have access to here in the west is what we are fed. I can find some facts on english websites but it is very hard to get good info.

As far as I know now, The S Ossetians (in Georgia) want to go with the north and Russia but the Georgians don't want to give them their independance. Just what is the situation there now?

Any history sites? I speak good Russian but I need to learn to read better and have a hard time understanding different dialects. Especially when they speak fast.

from wikipedia

Ossetia (Ossetic: Ирыстон (Iryston); Russian: Осетия, (Osetiya); Georgian: ოსეთი (Oset'i)) is an ethnolinguistic region located on both sides of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, largely inhabited by the Ossetians, an Iranian people who speak the Ossetic language (an Indo-Iranian language). The Ossetic-speaking area south to the main Caucasus ridge is within the de jure borders of Georgia but is largely under the control of the Russian-backed de facto government of the unrecognized Republic of South Ossetia. The northern portion of the region consists of the republic of North Ossetia-Alania within the Russian Federation.


[edit] Recent history
In the last years of the Soviet Union, ethnic tensions between Ossetians and Georgians in Georgia's former Autonomous Oblast of South Ossetia (abolished in 1990) and between Ossetians and the Ingush in North Ossetia evolved into violent clashes that left several hundreds of dead and wounded and created a large tide of refugees on the both sides of the border.


Map of North and South Ossetia.Although a Russian-mediated and OSCE-monitored ceasefire was implemented in South Ossetia in 1992, the Georgian-Ossetian conflict still remains unresolved even though a recent peace plan proposed by the government of Georgia promised the South Ossetians larger autonomy and pledged expanded international involvement in the political settlement of the conflict. Meanwhile, the South Ossetian secessionist authorities demand independence or unification with North Ossetia under the Russian Federation while the international community refuses to recognize South Ossetia as an independent country and considers the area part of Georgia. In recent years, many South Ossetians have been granted Russian citizenship despite acute protests from the Georgian side and the OSCE.

The Georgians say that the absence of a permanent political solution has made the area a safe haven for criminal activities, including counterfeiting (of American dollars) hostage taking, drug and arms trafficking and smuggling. These activities, Georgia's government alleges, are facilitated by the South Ossetian authorities. Georgia also accuses Russia of supporting the separatists and demands the withdrawal of the Russian peacekeeping force, while the Russian government insists on the continuation of the peacekeeping operation and pledges to defend its Russian citizens by any means.

[Scrat335]

Anythnig more specific in a military sense? Political?

[shuravee]

One more divided nation... sad...

Go on, Ossetians!

[lightfire]

This "truth" is only a point of view of an interested side, and all means of information/propoganda used (such as propogandist Leontjev) are only to keep ones faith in it's truth. Baisically these videos are merely for continueslly persuasion of russian speaking public. Those who did not understand what was said in videos did not loose much.

[Grach]

This "truth" is only a point of view of an interested side, and all means of information/propoganda used (such as propogandist Leontjev) are only to keep ones faith in it's truth. Baisically these videos are merely for continueslly persuasion of russian speaking public. Those who did not understand what was said in videos did not loose much.
На колени, козлик!

[mannelig]

На колени, козлик!
I think lightfire (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=15344) would understand that =)

[nick_ua]

Leontiev - is a smart guy, and if you want you can call any journalist on any TV - propagandist, I mean the one who at least have an opinion.

[lightfire]

Leontiev - is a smart guy, and if you want you can call any journalist on any TV - propagandist, I mean the one who at least have an opinion.

I didn't say he's stupid, he's certainly inteligent enough, though his oppinion.. well, lets say-it certainlly serves well as a hard line official voice of Kremlin. Inteligent enough to use Zhirinovskis' rhetorics in quite diplomatic means/words..


На колени, козлик!
je,je, RS one one eleven one note of exclamation one, go have some fun yourself.

[nick_ua]

I didn't say he's stupid, he's certainly inteligent enough, though his oppinion.. well, lets say-it certainlly serves well as a hard line official voice of Kremlin.
I remeber his reports in 99, when this official Kremlin position didn't exists, and he was pretty much in a same shape, so if his pont of view match Kreml point of view in some period of time it doesn't make him propagandist. That word kinda offend me
Amd common Leontiev and diplomatic words, u kidding right
The were famous his interview in Eho Moskva about situation n Ukraine and Georgia, man or man, there were nothing about diplomatic in his speech

[Alan]

So lightfire, what's your view on the situation there?

What's your solution?

Rather than make blanket statements about one individual, why don't you go and actually bother to argue some facts, make a cohesive point, you know, things that make for an actual counterpoint.

[Grach]

I didn't say he's stupid, he's certainly inteligent enough, though his oppinion.. well, lets say-it certainlly serves well as a hard line official voice of Kremlin. Inteligent enough to use Zhirinovskis' rhetorics in quite diplomatic means/words..

Honestly, this is ridiculous. Is he supposed to express only opinions matching yours? Is everything that doesn't fit your views is propaganda? What do you know that no one else does?

[lightfire]

I remeber his reports in 99, when this official Kremlin position didn't exists, and he was pretty much in a same shape, so if his pont of view match Kreml point of view in some period of time it doesn't make him propagandist. That word kinda offend me
What would you call the his "shape"?Esspecially, when it "accidentlly" matches with Kremlins' possition.

The were famous his interview in Eho Moskva about situation n Ukraine and Georgia, man or man, there were nothing about diplomatic in his speech
unfortunatelly didn't have a chance to hear that. Was that his "shape"? I still wouldn't put him in the same line with Zhirinovskij, though maybe I've missed too many of his "peredatchias"..


So lightfire, what's your view on the situation there?

What's your solution?

Ok, thats, how I see the situation:
first, start talking between conflict sides. The conflict is unresolved for years, neither the status qou,nor escalation is good for the region, but some interested groups seams to be willing of the conflict, since too much is on stake. Certain groups in S.Osetia, Georgia and Russia are not willing to resolve the crisis. Osetians are encouraged with independance, separation, without much thinking where that might lead, georgians want the teritory, which is de jure Georgias', back to their control(who wouldn't?), russians, as always unhappy with former republics seperate politics, and changed attitude, always ready to interfere to the "close border"...
I donno if UN would have the will and guts+means to do anything real, I doubt though..
But in this case I'd prefer third and least subjective side/force possible.

Honestly, this is ridiculous. Is he supposed to express only opinions matching yours?
not least ridiculous are the moments, when oppinions differ to russian official view(or to russia stroong !!11 team oppinion in general) are regarded as anti-russian, unfriendlly or in some very looney cases even ****azi possitions.

[Alan]

What would you call the his "shape"?Esspecially, when it "accidentlly" matches with Kremlins' possition.

Could it be, that some people, on their own accord, think the same as the Kremlin does? That maybe the Kremlin is right?

You know, that could happen.




Ok, thats, how I see the situation:
first, start talking between conflict sides. The conflict is unresolved for years, neither the status qou,nor escalation is good for the region, but some interested groups seams to be willing of the conflict, since too much is on stake. Certain groups in S.Osetia, Georgia and Russia are not willing to resolve the crisis. Osetians are encouraged with independance, separation, without much thinking where that might lead, georgians want the teritory, which is de jure Georgias', back to their control(who wouldn't?), russians, as always unhappy with former republics seperate politics, and changed attitude, always ready to interfere to the "close border"...
I donno if UN would have the will and guts+means to do anything real, I doubt though..
But in this case I'd prefer third and least subjective side/force possible.



And what would you prefer this side do?

Answer.

Would yo have

a. Ossetia become part of Russia.

b. Ossetia become independant.

or

c. Ossetia remain in Georgian control for good.

[nick_ua]

What would you call the his "shape"?Esspecially, when it "accidentlly" matches with Kremlins' possition
are u from baltic countries.
They guy had his own opinion far before the Kremlin officials position became on place, I'm talking about official position of Kremlin now.
In 99 he had his own opinion which didn't change much after new goverment came.
Basicaly you call the guy a propagandist just cause his opinion goes with official opinion and didn't mathc with your opinion.

[mannelig]

Why when somebody talks about independence сoncerning Ossetia, he means that Ossetia should join back to Georgia, cause it is one country. But when talking about Chechnya or smth else, they say "No f**king way! Freedom for chechens, russkies go away and bla-bla-bla".

If Leontjev is propagandist, maybe Novodvorskaya is the voice of democracy and freedom then?? Who wants to separate Russia to a small countries.
Why, you, people don`t like Russia so much? Have you ever been there? Or through the ocean it is much more clearly what is going on???

[nick_ua]

If Leontjev is propagandist, maybe Novodvorskaya is the voice of democracy and freedom then?? Who wants to separate Russia to a small countries.
Why, you, people don`t like Russia so much? Have you ever been there? Or through the ocean it is much more clearly what is going on???


didn't expect to hear this from Estonian:-)
+1

[SchwartzerPeter]

Maybe he's an russian living in Estonia?p-)

[mannelig]

Maybe he's an russian living in Estonia?p-)

That`s true. But does it make any difference?:) Estonia and Russia are both my nativ countries :)

[SchwartzerPeter]

Well, It does, are u gray pass owner or full citizen?
Dont get me wrong.

[mannelig]

full =)

[lightfire]

Could it be, that some people, on their own accord, think the same as the Kremlin does? That maybe the Kremlin is right?
surelly, lots of people in Russia think and talk the same as Leontjev, but what makes such oppinion unconditional TRUTH?

And what would you prefer this side do?
mediate, keep the hardliners as far as possible from each other, force the conflict sides to seek the best and common solution, offering benefits.


Answer.
Would yo have
a. Ossetia become part of Russia.
b. Ossetia become independant.
or
c. Ossetia remain in Georgian control for good.
at this moment?neither-first regulate the conflict, clear everything, find as much common agreement as posbl, and then it would be up to the people of Osetia to decide in FREE and OPEN referendum, not the circus we've seen. If it's trully the best for Osetians-let them have the independance, it's just they don't want it, nor do they know what to do with it-so shoutind loudly about independance, Osetia straight away sells it to Russian Federation. In that case, they dream of the same fate as North Osetia-an autonomus republic, right?Anyway, it's not time for that yet, but these frozen conflicts like in Abkhazia as well has taken too long when doing nothing, only flaming the separatist ideas from one side, and growing the hardliners of "return Osetia to Georgia" from another. Didn't Adzharija "wanted to be independent" as well? Look at them now-all that Adzharian separatism colapsed as the card house..

They guy had his own opinion far before the Kremlin officials position became on place, I'm talking about official position of Kremlin now.
you didn't answer me, what's that "shape" of the guy? Is it insulting other nations, talking lies, falsifying history or present situation, dezinforming and distorting information is his "shape". That's not only my oppinion of what he speaks, and he speaks all that openlly on TV. And what is propoganda? Maybe he's not Geobels and does not spread that kind of level, but still, the guys' "oppinion" smells with dezinformation, disrespect to other nations, willingnes to stimulate hostility against countries, that does not approve Russia and this old-new form of russian nationalism and chauvinism. I am not saying he's talking only about that and does not criticize Kremlin, he does, the times of soviet era propoganda is over, but today it's more subtle, yet still having much the same.

Why, you, people don`t like Russia so much?
nasty experiences in the past, that you would not probably understand makes many people not to like Russia too much. However, there's no need to overestimate and missinterpret-that's not hatred, nor it is "I don't like Russia with everything in it-people, places, food etc.". It's what russian governments' actions and loud words of certain political or social activists irritates many people, not the russian people or Russia in general.

[Alan]

at this moment?neither-first regulate the conflict, clear everything, find as much common agreement as posbl, and then it would be up to the people of Osetia to decide in FREE and OPEN referendum, not the circus we've seen.

What circus, we've said it time and time again, we want to be either with Russia or by ourselves.


If it's trully the best for Osetians-let them have the independance, it's just they don't want it, nor do they know what to do with it

Now that's just an idiotic statement. They don't want it, and who the FVCK are you to say that? They've certainly fought for it, died for it, struggled for it.

And you, some random guy with no clue as to the situation there, say they don't want it? Well then...

-so shoutind loudly about independance, Osetia straight away sells it to Russian Federation. In that case, they dream of the same fate as North Osetia-an autonomus republic, right?

Ayep, they've been shoutin, while being genocided, murdered, and fighting. Pity nobody listened.


Anyway, it's not time for that yet,

Who the fvuck are you to decide that?
Did your relatives die on Zarsk, in Tskhinval?
Did your people's villages get burned to ash?
Did your children get buried alive?
Did you have to bury loved ones in a schoolyard because the cemetary was getting mortared?

No, I didn't think so. You sat comfortably somewhere, while people died, and now you have the ****ing nerve to say it's not time for them yet?

Do you think you are god? Do you think you actually matter?


but these frozen conflicts like in Abkhazia as well has taken too long when doing nothing,

Well, maybe if the powers-that-be actually listened for once, or bothered, something would be done?


only flaming the separatist ideas from one side,

along with flaming villages and corpses of farmers burned on Georgian orders.


and growing the hardliners of "return Osetia to Georgia" from another.

Forgot more lines..

"Wipe out the ossetian snakes."

"Georgia for Georgians"

"Cleanse the non-Georgian filth to Russia through the Roksky tunnel."


Didn't Adzharija "wanted to be independent" as well? Look at them now-all that Adzharian separatism colapsed as the card house..

Piss poor comparison. Adjarians are ethnically Georgian, and no war of aggression or Genocide was ever waged against them.

[kakheli]

History


[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=South_Ossetia&action=edit&section=3)] Medieval and early modern period

The Ossetians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians) are originally descendants of Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_language)-speaking tribes from Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia). They became Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) during the early Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages), under Georgian influence. Under Mongol rule, they were pushed out of their medieval homeland south of the Don river (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River%2C_Russia) in present-day Russia and part migrated towards and over the Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus) mountains, to Georgia [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#_note-4) where they formed three distinct territorial entities. Digor in the west came under the influence of the neighboring Kabard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabard) people, who introduced Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam). Tualläg in the south became what is now South Ossetia, part of the historical Georgian principality of Samachablo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samachablo) [6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#_note-5) where Ossetians found refuge from Mongol invaders. Iron in the north became what is now North Ossetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ossetia), under Russian rule from 1767. Most Ossetians are now Christian (approximately 61%); there is also a significant Muslim minority.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=South_Ossetia&action=edit&section=4)] South Ossetia under Russia and the Soviet Union

The modern-day South Ossetia was annexed by Russia in 1801, along with Georgia proper, and absorbed into the Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire). Following the Russian Revolution, South Ossetia became a part of the Menshevik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menshevik) Georgian Democratic Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Democratic_Republic), while the north became a part of the Terek Soviet Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terek_Soviet_Republic). The area saw brief clashes between the Georgian governmental forces and Ossetians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian-Ossetian_conflict_%281918-1920%29) led by Ossetian and Georgian bolsheviks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolshevik) in 1920. The Soviet Georgian government established by the Russian 11th Red Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army) in 1921, created the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetian_Autonomous_Oblast) (i.e. district) in April 1922. Although the Ossetians had their own language (Ossetian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetic_language)), Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language) and Georgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_language) were administrative/state languages. [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#_note-6) At present, Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language) is the only administrative language[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] used by the separatist government in Tskhinvali. In the Soviet time, under the rule of Georgia's government, it enjoyed some degree of autonomy, including to practice (Ossetian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetic_language)) language and teach it in schools.

[Alan]

Nice article. It kinda forgets two things.

1. The dvalls, a people the ossetians integrated into their population.

2. The entire bit of history where Ossetia existed as Alania prior to the separation during the Soviet Union.