Hitler a cool hero to many Indians.

[LRPV]

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Hitler a cool hero to many Indians
A correspondent in Kharghar, India
28dec06

WHEN an Adolf Hitler-themed restaurant opened in a suburb of cosmopolitan Mumbai in August, many were horrified.

The restaurant, Hitlers Cross, changed its name a week later to the Cross Cafe, but it is not the only example of how favourably some Indians view Hitler and his legacy.
Hindu fundamentalist groups praise Hitler's leadership skills. A university poll some years ago showed he was seen as an ideal leader. Books and videos of him are top sellers.
Most patrons still call the Cross Cafe by its previous name. Plates and cups bear the Hitlers Cross logo, with a Nazi swastika in place of the "O".
"We call it 'Hitler' only," said Ashish Anant, 18, an aeronautics university student who likes to come to the cafe with friends. "We say, 'Let's go to Hitler'. It's a trendy name. It's different."
It is not clear why Hitler is popular in some Indian circles, but some experts say it is because of a belief Indians were the original Aryan race.
Others say it is because Hitler used the traditional Hindu good luck symbol, the swastika, rotating it slightly. And those who support India's rigid caste system may like Hitler's eugenics and race beliefs.
But any praise for Hitler is not reflected in national policy. India has strong ties with Israel and views it as an ally in the war on terror.
Jewish and non-Jewish Indians were horrified by Hitlers Cross. Israeli consul Daniel Zohar Zonshine was visibly upset when talking about the portrayal of Hitler in India, especially at Hitlers Cross.
He thought the owners wanted the free publicity that came with such controversy.
The consulate has tried to educate Indians about Hitler, sending a Holocaust photograph exhibit and education materials last year to the western state of Gujarat, where government textbooks have praised Hitler.
"It's not an Israeli issue," said Mr Zonshine, adding that World War II was not ingrained in the culture of India as it was in that of Europe or Israel. "It's not a Jewish issue. It's a humanitarian issue."
Interviews with many young Indians indicated they had little idea of what Hitler actually did. They described the Nazi dictator as "cool" or "trendy", and did not know what happened in the Holocaust.
"I don't know much," admitted Puneet Sabhlok, 22, one of the co-founders of Hitlers Cross, which serves only one marginally German item, German chocolate cake.
Hitler is glorified in other ways. A poll of 400 students from the country's most prestigious universities by a leading Indian newspaper in 2002 found Hitler was their third most requested ideal leader of India, behind independence leader Mahatma Gandhi and the country's then prime minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee.
In Gujarat, textbooks have praised Hitler's leadership abilities, fascism and the Nazi movement. Until recently, state social studies textbooks have featured chapters on "Hitler, the Supremo" and "Internal achievements of Nazism". The textbooks have been changed slightly this year, but still barely mention the Holocaust.
This is the state where Hindu-led riots led to the deaths of more than 1000 Muslims in 2002. Several investigations blamed the state government, led by a right-wing Hindu political party, for allowing the riots.
Bal Thackeray, founder of Shiv Sena, a Hindu fundamentalist party, has openly praised Hitler and said he was willing to wipe out the troublemaking Muslims. And Hitler's autobiography, Mein Kampf, still flies off the shelves of many bookstores.
MCT



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....and these people have nukes? :|

http://server-au.imrworldwide.com/cgi-bin/count?url=&rnd=1167276128091&cid=au_newscorp_0&ref=http%3A//www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0%2C20867%2C20980655-2703%2C00.html&sr=sr1280x1024:cd32:lgen-au:jey:cky:tz9:ctlan:hpn http://server-au.imrworldwide.com/cgi-bin/count?cid=au_newscorp_0

[Kitsune]

It's somewhat disturbing, sure. But then, many Chinese tend to think that Mao was cool, and they have nukes, too. And nowadays, many Russians seem to think that Stalin was cool, and they have more nukes then the Chinese and Indians taken together. So, it is not only India.

[LRPV]

It's somewhat disturbing, sure. But then, many Chinese tend to think that Mao was cool, and they have nukes, too. And nowadays, many Russians seem to think that Stalin was cool, and they have more nukes then the Chinese and Indians taken together. So, it is not only India.

It's not the sane ones that bother me. It's the possibility of the insane ones obtaining government.

[Thor]

I believe Hitler in the beginning had no plans on supporting independence movements in India, as he sought peace in the west and wanted to divide up the world between Germany and Britain. Though as the war progressed things changed in 1941 when Germany, among other things, recognised a provisional indian government in exile.

A bit more on that
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3684288.stm

[Heron]

so...they are also one of the biggest customer of israel weapon industry...

[IraGlacialis]

So the young, dumb ones think Hitler's "trendy", while the old, crazy ones idolize his policies and want to utilize a Indian version of the Holocaust on Muslims. Isn't that just dandy?

[indian_irish]

So the young, dumb ones think Hitler's "trendy", while the old, crazy ones idolize his policies and want to utilize a Indian version of the Holocaust on Muslims. Isn't that just dandy?

I for one have been living in india since '97.from IIIrd through XIIth grades.until from 1947 to 1989 indians have had the secular congress party in power.when they became too corrupt the only other choice was the BJP,which many consider a hindu nationalist party,even though it has many muslim reps.

the only reason i can see for their ignorance is that we are not taught much about world history until college.i have read about hitler ,the holocaust and a i believe i am sufficiently aware of what happened.the period of 1857 to 1947 was mainly the time of our freedom struggle and we tend to be more occupied with that .that said many muslims do see hitler as a hero since he killed jews.

[Ordie]

This restaurant is an insult to the all volunteer Indian Army who served in World War Two. Out of the 2 million Indian volunteers, 87,000 lost thier lives fighting against the Facist, Nazi's, and the Japanese Warlords.

30 Indian soldiers recieved the Victoria Cross.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6a/Indian_Army_WWII.jpg/250px-Indian_Army_WWII.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Indian_Army_WWII.jpg)
Indian soldiers storm a German trench, after exploding it with hand grenades. Circa 1945

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian_Army

[firdaus_84]

No need to hate someone with great leadership. Win or lost, every **** still the same, if Nazi win WWII, we all will hate Americana and Allies and probably they will be Holodesk invented in 1970. Crapx...

[Durandal]

No need to hate someone with great leadership. Win or lost, every **** still the same, if Nazi win WWII, we all will hate Americana and Allies and probably they will be Holodesk invented in 1970. Crapx...

WTF?

I don't care who writes history, Hitler was a poor leader. He sucked. He had a cult of personality going in the 30s. That is it.

[Doublethinker]

Well, swastika is used in India as a sign of happiness and as a key symbol to understanding the Universal rotation of epochs, if I'm not mistaken.

Perhaps that's why he is so popular there. They don't care much about his historical or political input, I think.

[Con-man]

Hitler was actually a good leader, (Explain how Germany emerged defeated in WW1 and then proceeded make a speedy comeback for WW2 21yrs later under the leadership of Hitler) I'm not going to get into WW2 history too much, but I will say this, Hitler was a GOOD leader (as in how he led a country) BUT did terrible things to the world which can never be forgiven.

[oldsoak]

Hitler was actually a good leader, (Explain how Germany emerged defeated in WW1 and then proceeded make a speedy comeback for WW2 21yrs later under the leadership of Hitler) I'm not going to get into WW2 history too much, but I will say this, Hitler was a GOOD leader (as in how he led a country) BUT did terrible things to the world which can never be forgiven.

Good leaders dont take their countries to war with the rest of the world.
Hitler would have achieved nothing without the likes of Speer etc. He was the gremlin standing on the shoulders of ogres.

[Moledet]

so...they are also one of the biggest customer of israel weapon industry...
And there are a lot of Israeli tourists there, in some places there are more Israelis than Indians.

[Kant]

Hitler was actually a good leader, (Explain how Germany emerged defeated in WW1 and then proceeded make a speedy comeback for WW2 21yrs later under the leadership of Hitler) I'm not going to get into WW2 history too much, but I will say this, Hitler was a GOOD leader (as in how he led a country) BUT did terrible things to the world which can never be forgiven.

Maybe the combination of reparations, conscripting people to work wether they liked it or not and spending billions of dollars on setting up a war economy helped.
War economies need wars to survive, but the German government was by no means wealthy under "the little corporal".They spent more than they were making, which you can do if your a Dictatror.

[Kaapeli]

Good leaders dont take their countries to war with the rest of the world.

Good leaders don't lose while doing that.
Countless of brutal conquerors (conquest is very rarely a bloodless event where no one suffers) and empires are admired and even idolized around the world mainly because they won their wars. From Alexander the Great to the British Empire.

[Durandal]

Hitler was actually a good leader, (Explain how Germany emerged defeated in WW1 and then proceeded make a speedy comeback for WW2 21yrs later under the leadership of Hitler) I'm not going to get into WW2 history too much, but I will say this, Hitler was a GOOD leader (as in how he led a country) BUT did terrible things to the world which can never be forgiven.

Good leaders do not have to steal power rather than getting it, legitimately from the people (yeah, we can argue back and forth that he was elected, but ultimately he stole the power through manipulation and violence). Good leaders do not consolidate power using fear and violence upon their own people.

A good leader would take his nation too a war time economy the moment the first shot was fired.

A good leader would not have his fortunes told and follow some sort of nut ball mystic path.

A good leader would not have destroyed his nation.

Hitler was NOT a good leader. Not too sure what the ƒuck gives you the idea that he was.

[Vandervahn]

I simply wouldnt interpret too much into it. It is natural that a majority of people don´t care too much about stuff that doesnt affect them directly. For example, most American know about the Iranian hostage crisis. Now how many Americans could at least remotely recall the 40 years of political manipulation by the West before that?

The whole Nazi thing... well, it never had too much significance outside of Europe. For most people on the world, the war and the crimes were just yet another step in a history of bloody self-mutilation in and by Europe. India itself was predominantly affected by the Japanese threat - essentially a different war fought at the same time.

Add to that the element of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" (with the disliked British oppressors being a far more immediate enemy), pour in the Nazi mythology that lent some Indian symbolism, recognize that Judaism played only a small role in India... and it is quite understandable that India doesnt have too much of a negative view upon the Nazis.

Thats not "good", but also nothing to get headaches about. One cannot expect that WW2, this turning point in western history, is as important for less affected nations than it is for us.

[Hunterhr]

Hitler was actually a good leader, (Explain how Germany emerged defeated in WW1 and then proceeded make a speedy comeback for WW2 21yrs later under the leadership of Hitler) I'm not going to get into WW2 history too much, but I will say this, Hitler was a GOOD leader (as in how he led a country) BUT did terrible things to the world which can never be forgiven.

Hitler had occasional flashes of brilliance, but he was not a 'good' leader by any stretch of the imagination.

[Playtime]

I simply wouldnt interpret too much into it. It is natural that a majority of people don´t care too much about stuff that doesnt affect them directly. For example, most American know about the Iranian hostage crisis. Now how many Americans could at least remotely recall the 40 years of political manipulation by the West before that?

The whole Nazi thing... well, it never had too much significance outside of Europe. For most people on the world, the war and the crimes were just yet another step in a history of bloody self-mutilation in and by Europe. India itself was predominantly affected by the Japanese threat - essentially a different war fought at the same time.

Add to that the element of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" (with the disliked British oppressors being a far more immediate enemy), pour in the Nazi mythology that lent some Indian symbolism, recognize that Judaism played only a small role in India... and it is quite understandable that India doesnt have too much of a negative view upon the Nazis.

Thats not "good", but also nothing to get headaches about. One cannot expect that WW2, this turning point in western history, is as important for less affected nations than it is for us.

Well said.

For exactly the same reason, China/Korea especially (others too) is particularly pissed that while the western media/govts would never EVER allow Germany to cast doubt on the Holocaust or set up/visit a shrine with Hitler in it. Japan have ben allowed outrageous statements about the "comfort woman", Nanking massacre etc etc, with apparently little reaction from the western world.

Maybe, many in the east would just as much associate the WW2 german army with strength, professionalism and great fighting ability as they do the war crimes in europe.

[Saranof]

Hitler was NOT a good leader. Not too sure what the ƒuck gives you the idea that he was.


It's cool how a crap leader goes from living in the gutter to becoming singlehand dictator of a large country, getting the people to worship him and do his bidding. Sure, his henchmen did loads of that, but to say he sucked as a leader is grossly underestimating him.

And save us the "moral" leadership stuff. Lots, if not most of historic great leaders were complete b*stards when it came to those values

[Con-man]

****, can I nominate my first post for most qouted of the week?

Ok, I guess I'll change my statement to this: If Hitler hadn't of started WW2 or done any bad holocaust nasty things then he would've been considered a good leader.

He had the potential to be a good leader, but got way to ahead of himself and stuck his head up the arse we call his views towards non-German's, are the members of MP.net happy now?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Print this page (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:printable%28%29)
Hitler a cool hero to many Indians
A correspondent in Kharghar, India
28dec06

WHEN an Adolf Hitler-themed restaurant opened in a suburb of cosmopolitan Mumbai in August, many were horrified.
http://server-au.imrworldwide.com/cgi-bin/count?cid=au_newscorp_0

I love it when a writer shoots his own headline in the foot - so to speak :roll:.

[aartamen]

dumb humans

[SBL]

I'm sure you guys have seen this a million-and-one-times, and doesn't have a whole lot to do with this particular story, but I'm going to post it anyway.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i228/Captainbadd/space_heater_Hitler.jpg

[Reggie]

India was a colony of britain and was not given a say in the matter of joining of the war, given a choice i doubt they would have wanted to join other people's wars.

In any case, indians have a lot to thank Hitler. Thanks to him, british imperial domination was broken, leading to independance.

[Lamer]

Hitler was NOT a good leader. Not too sure what the ƒuck gives you the idea that he was.
First beeing a nobody and than a leader of one of the strongenst countries of all times.
Bringing Germany from a weak country after WWI to a superpower.
While he was on power the majority supported him with all their harts.
He had an extremely powerfull cult of personality

He did a lot of very nasty stuff but saying he was a bad leader and a nobody in s just wrong. If he is a nobody why every single man on the world knows him? He is a negative figire but that is just because he has lost the war- if he'd won UK, USA and Russia would be considered the bad guys and would probaly be trialed for war crimes (bombing civilian towns...) Of course that wouldt make him diffrent from the nazi criminal that he was but thats not the way the world would see him.

[Kant]

First beeing a nobody and than a leader of one of the strongenst countries of all times.
Bringing Germany from a weak country after WWI to a superpower.
While he was on power the majority supported him with all their harts.
He had an extremely powerfull cult of personality

He did a lot of very nasty stuff but saying he was a bad leader and a nobody in s just wrong. If he is a nobody why every single man on the world knows him? He is a negative fugire but that is just because he has lost the war- if he'd won UK, USAand Russia would be considered the bad guys and would probaly be trialed for war crimes (bombing civilian towns...)

He was infamous.
That is not on the criteria of what constitutes a good leader.
He was a genocidal ****.One of the most evil men that ever lived.
He had plans ,to be implemented by Reinhard Heidrich and Heinrich Himmler , to exterminate every single man, woman and child in the Balkans , and all other parts of Eastern Europe.When a man is remembered solely for his cruelty, sadism and almost single handedly losing a war,it seems a bit silly to think of him as a good leader, doesn't it?

[TheBelgian]

I guess if your country wants involved or ravaged by WWII, people just dont really take not of the magnitude of Hitler's crimes. Either that, or they just dont know what the man stood for. I was in Mexico a few weeks ago, and there was this market for hippies and commies, but between all the Ché and Castro parafinalia, they sold loads and loads of Swastikas and SS logos! These punk kids would have a patch of Ché's face sewed on their backpack, right next to a patch of a Swastika. They didnt have a real idea what the Swastika stood for, they just thought it looked cool.

[Lamer]

Beeing nice or evil (like he was) does not effect the fact of how good a leader is- He had a strong support from his nation who didnt turn on him even when he started the war. IMO thats good leadership when people gladly follow you even if you are doing very ****ty things. If was a bad leader his dictatorship would fall before it even started.

[Kant]

Beeing nice or evil (like he was) does not effect the fact of how good a leader is- He had a strong support from his nation who didnt turn on him even when he started the war. IMO thats good leadership when people gladly follow you even if you are doing very ****ty things. If was a bad leader his dictatorship would fall before it even started.

That's true.
But he built his power solely on opressing and killing others.
He started a War, lost it, and managed to cause the death of over 50 million people.People followed them because they would die if they didn't.
Hardly the hallmarks of a great leader.
The fact is, if he'd been a great leader,most europeans wouldn't be around any more

[Con-man]

If he was a bad leader then he wouldn't have gotten anywhere in the first place..

[J-Bags]

I did a few essays on him at school and to some up basically; he had the right ideas as a leader during the 20's and 30's when it came to gaining support and being made Chancellor. After his 1933 victory in the Reichstag and the death of President Hindenburg, he became grossly over confident and just downright lazy and a lot of his leadership skills went down the tubes.

Nazi C0ck socket.

That's 3 years history lessons in 5 lines...

[Playtime]

He was infamous.
That is not on the criteria of what constitutes a good leader.
He was a genocidal ****.One of the most evil men that ever lived.
He had plans ,to be implemented by Reinhard Heidrich and Heinrich Himmler , to exterminate every single man, woman and child in the Balkans , and all other parts of Eastern Europe.When a man is remembered solely for his cruelty, sadism and almost single handedly losing a war,it seems a bit silly to think of him as a good leader, doesn't it?

Can that also be used in describing say....

General Custer Vs Indians.
British Vs Zulus.
Crusaders Vs Muslims.

Tricky defining what "leadership" is.

[rajkhalsa]

India is probably the single most un-anti-semetic nation in the world. Jews had been living in India as refugees longer than they have been living in Europe. After Israeli independence, many Indian Jews went back to Israel, and Indian-language speaking Israeli-Indian Jews are the 3rd largest language block in Israel. In India, even under the Muslim yoke, there was never anti-semtism, or persecution of Jews. One of India's greatest war heros, General Jacob (http://www.despardes.com/newsmakers/gen-jacob-sep8.htm), is Jewish.

It was well publicized that a couple years ago, an Israeli defense minister (I forgot whom exactly, and am too lazy to google) travelled to India, and made the comment at a press conference that this is the only country in the world where there is no anti-semitism. When a reporter asked him what exactly is 'anti-semitism', the minister started crying and came down and hugged the man.

It's for this reason so many Israelis come to India. In India, no one cares if you are Israeli or Jewish, and you don't face hostility.


In this context, it may seem odd that Indian's aren't as knowledgeable as Europeans and Americans about the nazi genocide, even though the Indian army raised the largest volunteer army (over two million strong) in human history to liberate countries from facism far, far from its shores.

It's simple: Indian (and East Asian, for that matter) wasn't civilizationally affected/scarred by the Nazi invasions as European. The genocide by the Muslims against the Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists (the very former of whom they tried to eradicate, and the very latter of whom they completely did) was far, far more scarring.

In East Asia, regimes like Maoist China, which killed more people than Hitler and Stalin combined, and that of Imperial Japan are just as civilzationally scarring. Even regimes like the Khmer Rogue performed ethnic clensing and killed nearly as many people...

...yet these holocausts are glossed over in the West, and people here are just as flippant to the Asian holocausts as equally-clueless-about-Hitler Indians and East Asians are to the nazi.



Think of the wounds and the passionate outrage the average American/European/Israeli feels towards the nazi genocide. That finds its equal in India by the Muslim genocides, and in Far East Asia by the Japanese occupation.


I wonder if the author of that piece of drivel would be just as outraged over the West's seeming ignoring of the Muslim genocides of India? Hypocrite.


Cheers,
Raj

[Herrmannek]

One likes Che one finds Hitler an Idol... One without guilt should throw first stone...

[toki]

He was a convincing speaker, a populist. But not a good leader. At least not in the military sense. He just threw everything he had. Of course it was alot at a time. But strategically he just overstretched everything. What made him strong was his ability to create a cult, but that has not much to do with leadership, not at all. He was basicly creating his own religion.
And he created a structure of fear. That was his accomplishment. Good leaders don't need this.
tens of thousands of people were executed in the later period of the third reich. And i'm not speaking about the holocaust, but the "legal" system. Fear replaces respect. And good leaders are carried by respect.

For me per definition he was not a good leader. Not in any sense.

[Xaito]

He was a convincing speaker, a populist. But not a good leader. At least not in the military sense.
right - not in the military sense - but a man who raised from nothing to his position is a good leader.
Its right that he created a cult and so on but thats also something only a leader type can do - so imo he was a skilled leader - not one I would wish to lead my country and he was a war criminal and sucked at military strategy (his generals were the skilled ones) - but he had skills as a leader no doubt.

[Doublethinker]

Well, after all Hitler just like Stalin, Mao, Washington, Big Gay Al, South Park etc. is part of world culture of consumerism and is nothing more than a trendy brand which sells.

Moralists should begin to cope with reality and just take a look around.

[Freedom-Fries]

India was stuck between a rock and a hard place back then, burtal British colonailism on one side and then a new rise of German/Japanese fascism on the other, which is why many of them didn't really see Hitler as such a bad guy and the Indian National Army and the Indische Freiwilligen-Legion got thousands of supporters

[Jagdtiger]

it´s sad that a person like hitler can be an idol or hero to anyone if these people really knew what he did and would come to understand what he was they shure wouldn´t think of him as a hero

[a_very_ex_STAB]

India was stuck between a rock and a hard place back then, burtal British colonailism on one side and then a new rise of German/Japanese fascism on the other, which is why many of them didn't really see Hitler as such a bad guy and the Indian National Army and the Indische Freiwilligen-Legion got thousands of supporters

LOL

A few thousand renegades as opposed to the 2.5 million volunteers who joined the British Indian Army in WW2.

As for brutal British colonialism it was no worse (and often a lot better) than the rule of local Indian leaders before and after the British colonial era.
Back to school for you matey :roll:

[AK74]

It's somewhat disturbing, sure. But then, many Chinese tend to think that Mao was cool, and they have nukes, too. And nowadays, many Russians seem to think that Stalin was cool, and they have more nukes then the Chinese and Indians taken together. So, it is not only India.

haha!

the majority wins under a republic i guess , even if they are idiots.rofl

[AK74]

I did a few essays on him at school and to some up basically; he had the right ideas as a leader during the 20's and 30's when it came to gaining support and being made Chancellor. After his 1933 victory in the Reichstag and the death of President Hindenburg, he became grossly over confident and just downright lazy and a lot of his leadership skills went down the tubes.

Nazi C0ck socket.

That's 3 years history lessons in 5 lines...

i guess its just 3 words for me. rofl rofl rofl

[J-Bags]

i guess its just 3 words for me. rofl rofl rofl

I concur. You make me rofl

[Reggie]

A few thousand renegades as opposed to the 2.5 million volunteers who joined the British Indian Army in WW2

A country of 300 million poor people starving to death in the 1940's famines and massive unemployment (thanks to the British) , I'm quite sure most of them were in it for careers and food rather than fighting a white mans war.