To those who oppose... What should be done now?

[fdt]

As not everything in Iraq is going as planned, it's a high time to ask those who were opposing the war "What should be done now and in given conditions. Ladies and Gentlemen time to voice Your opinion more complex way. Pls do not hesitate... feel free to give any advices. Time to listen to other part.

The idea of such thread came to my mind after yesterday's conversation on the topis with helex. Below a transcript (hope You don't mind that helex):

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fdt
I always wanted to ask some anti... guy. What should be done... What would You do now HELEX? Imagine You are Helex Almighty... what You do today and tomorrow... how do You deal with the Iraqi mess... huh? (pls spare me the talks that it shouldn't be started in first place ... because You can't turn back the time... treat it as a small exception of the Almightiness rule).

Feel free to write much...

Helex
Just move all Troops out of Iraq and let the Solution find itself. It wont be more bloody than now.
finished.

fdt
What makes You think that?

Helex
What makes you think that not? Because there is no military any more, the Majority will rule under a religious leader.

fdt
You mean smth like a "Vaticanisation"?

Helex
No, something like Iran with some more Freedom.

fdt
What kind of freedom?

Helex
Basically the same they had under Saddam.

fdt
What means....?
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As You can see the converstaion has ended with cliffhanger. I can't wait to continue lkearning the anti side point of view...

[aeternum]

What to do:

1.) Withdraw the US Marines form Iraq. Its the dumbest thing you can do to use the Marines to try to establish/keep peace.

2.) Learn from the British. Comparing to the US they are doing a way better job down there. The British have a history in occupying non-european (african, arabian, indian, ... ) countries since hundret of years, the US dont.

3.) Transfer all authorities to Al-Sistani. He is the only one right now who can establish peace and garantee the security and integrity of Iraq.

[fdt]

What to do:

1.) Withdraw the US Marines form Iraq. Its the dumbest thing you can do to use the Marines to try to establish/keep peace.

2.) Learn from the British. Comparing to the US they are doing a way better job down there. The British have a history in occupying non-european (african, arabian, indian, ... ) countries since hundret of years, the US dont.

3.) Transfer all authorities to Al-Sistani. He is the only one right now who can establish peace and garantee the security and integrity of Iraq.Problem witrh Sistani is; he's a leader of the shia majority. What about the Sadrist, Sunni and Kurdish? Wouldn't this cause the political unrest and probably the clashes the next day power is transferred to Sistani?

[Kicius]

fdt wrote:


Wouldn't this cause the political unrest and probably the clashes the next day power is transferred to Sistani?

You are probably right here. There are such great differences between visions of "Free Iraq" that it may end with "clans" war.

IMHO - Blue helmets could be better solution than leathernecks.

But as far as everybody wants a piece of "Iraqi cake" there are no good solution for the Iraqis.

[budanski]

What to do:

1.) Withdraw the US Marines form Iraq. Its the dumbest thing you can do to use the Marines to try to establish/keep peace.

2.) Learn from the British. Comparing to the US they are doing a way better job down there. The British have a history in occupying non-european (african, arabian, indian, ... ) countries since hundret of years, the US dont.

3.) Transfer all authorities to Al-Sistani. He is the only one right now who can establish peace and garantee the security and integrity of Iraq.

Wasnt it the Brits who, got this great idea of divving up the old ottoman empire without taking into consideration of nomadic tribal alliances? Who would of think that Sunnis, Kurds, and ****es would have a problem living with one another. :roll:

[HELEX]

That Conversation ended because I got offline.

They will not live in Democracy but it will be similar to the neighbouring countrys that are US-Allies. Just remember, Iraq was far more western orientated than Saudi-Arabia, Syria, Jordan or Iran.

[aeternum]

What to do:

1.) Withdraw the US Marines form Iraq. Its the dumbest thing you can do to use the Marines to try to establish/keep peace.

2.) Learn from the British. Comparing to the US they are doing a way better job down there. The British have a history in occupying non-european (african, arabian, indian, ... ) countries since hundret of years, the US dont.

3.) Transfer all authorities to Al-Sistani. He is the only one right now who can establish peace and garantee the security and integrity of Iraq.Problem witrh Sistani is; he's a leader of the shia majority. What about the Sadrist, Sunni and Kurdish? Wouldn't this cause the political unrest and probably the clashes the next day power is transferred to Sistani?

Well if the US does really want a true democracy in Iraq, Al-Sistani will be incharge anyway sooner or later. But honestly i doubt the US want to happen this. They will try to get sure just a pro-US puppet will get ellected, which would be another dumb move.

[fdt]

That Conversation ended because I got offline.

They will not live in Democracy but it will be similar to the neighbouring countrys that are US-Allies. Just remember, Iraq was far more western orientated than Saudi-Arabia, Syria, Jordan or Iran.So Your plan requires a strong man. Should it be a new one or Saddam should return?

[HELEX]

No, Saddam has to be killed to several reasons.
My plan will work if Sadr is eleminated and some moderate People like Sistani get Power.

[dacanadianbomb]

The problem is that the US cannot pull back now.

If you were to leave the country, and let the people sort themselves out ,it will turn into utter chaos.
You will have a situation simular to Afghanistan right now. A central rule which has little to no bearing outside of the capitol. Warlords will control most of the provinces with their own agenda. The religous parties will separate into their own factions and fighting will most likely erupt again.
This is actually then a eral reason to go and take control over a country, since it would be the breeding ground for more extremists an terrorists.

edit : eliminating Sadr is not going to really change the situation for the better. You have acetain catch 22 situation with a prominent person like himself. he isnt just connected to the people because he is Iraqi and outspoken and defiant, he also is tied in with a religion.

Eliminating him is still a top priority in my eyes, to set an example of people who decide to be destructive and try to take control in the power vacuum. Yet by doing so you distance yourself even further away from the people of iraq.
The US will always have to bear the brunt of their actions and the future of iraq.

They should stick out, try and make the people prosper wth education, and jobs. Try to make them see the benefits of what they can do for themselves , without violence. That is the best thing they can do. But it wont be easy and there is no forum postable way to describe it.

[Mark_Aspen]

I don't see an upside for us, except maybe letting Haliburton or Perot have the country.

Getting the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds to live under one system isn't like getting the Amish, Lutherans and Catholics in a given US county to live together peacefully. We fail at nation building because we haven't got the patience to do it. We're the people who demand our corporations provide income and profit statements every 90 days. "Establishing" democracy (in the western sense) in Iraq will take a generation, and even then only has a 40-50-60% chance of succeeding; Islam and democracy aren't mutually exclusive, but they almost are in the Arab world. This isn't talking about radical or reactionary Islam, just regular run-of-the-mill Islam. It invests much authority in the Imam, more so than we're used to seeing in ministers, priests, etc.

If we said we're going to establish an independent,democrqatic Kurdistan, we might have more success.

As to the original intent of the question, we were against the war for the very reasons you ask us to provide a solution for. Other than removing Saddam, there is no good result to be seen anytime soon. Remember: me against my brother, my brother and I against my cousin, my cousin and I against the world.

[Ichhabe]

*dp*

[Ichhabe]

First: I was not opposed to the war at the start.

But as it has progressed in to what it is now; I really can't say that I like the smell of it.

Second: The fault of how this war has developed must be blamed on the American Governement.
I can't belive that they really thought that when "major fightings" were over on May the 1. that everything was to be a ball.
The advisors of the US President must be, to my knowledge in the top rank of education.
There must have be one of them, or by the use of other experts that could have foreseen different scenarios about the developments after May the 1. (CIA, ain't them the experts on such a field?)


Unfortunatly we cannot turn back time. But done is done.
USA cannot under any circumstances pull back now. If they do, they can never again fight for democracy around the world, and can therefore declare that they are going back to the pre-WW I of isolationism.

The biggest problem as for now, is that there are no Arab countries that are on the team. And I now mean Arab countries with political influence.
What about the use of "sharing power and influence"?
There is no secret that the USA doesn't like to use this. UK has almost no saying on the course that has been chosen.

But drastic times calls for drastic solutions.
Why not invite the larger Arab countries in. And heartfully share the "power" with them?
It is about time that the Arabs also learn that they must do their share, if they really want to have a stable region.
Egypt and Iran(technicly their Persians) are the first that comes in mind.
Throw the "Axis of Evil" overboard. That term is no good to bond on relations.
Iran is on it's slow way to being democracised and may look out for any life rope that is been thrown out. Why not invite them to the table. Listen to their views and opinions. And also, seeing Iranian soldiers patroling the streets of Fallujah with American soldiers would be a sight worth to see.

We in the western world do not have all the right answers on etichs and morale and whatever we value. Other nations on the oposite also have this. Why not listen?

[cut]

I don't think leaving it is a good idea, even if Sistani got power and created a Iran clone, that would not guarantee the safety of kurds and sunnis, and guess who will be blamed?

[MEGR]

What does it matter though.. The war is going. Support the men and women in uniform, anit-war or not.

[HELEX]

What does it matter though.. The war is going. Support the men and women in uniform, anit-war or not.

The best way to do that is to pull them out of a war that is not good or noble in its reasons.

They are loosing their honor there.

[Ichhabe]

What does it matter though.. The war is going. Support the men and women in uniform, anit-war or not.

For all it matters, I actually do.
But I do have the right to an opinion, and raise it from time to time. I've earned it. ;)

[MEGR]

Man you certainly do.. I'm just tired of discussing "what we should do."

[Fintin]

....and thats why i dont wear pants any more...

[HELEX]

Man you certainly do.. I'm just tired of discussing "what we should do."

As long as they are not doing what they should do, there will be discussion. And when they do, too. :lol: