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LaoSexMachine
12-28-2006, 07:41 PM
Democrats to revisit detainee issues

Story Highlights

•Democrats to use majorities in House, Senate to address detainee laws
•Key Republicans -- Specter, Snowe -- likely to join in
•Right of habeas corpus will be primary focus

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Senate Democrats plan to use their newfound power to revisit one of the most contentious national security matters of 2006: Deciding what legal rights must be protected for detainees held in the war on terrorism.
In September, Congress passed a bill that gave President Bush wide latitude in interrogating and detaining captured enemy combatants. The legislation, backed by the White House, prompted three months of debate -- exposing Republican fissures and prompting angry rebukes by Democrats of the administration's interrogation policies.
With the November 7 elections handing control to the Democrats, the issue is far from settled. A group of Senate Democrats and one Republican, Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, want to resurrect the bill to fix at least one provision they say threatens the nation's credibility on human rights issues.
As Democrats plan to revisit detainees' rights, Saddam Hussein's chief lawyer is trying to cast doubt on the U.S. handling of the ousted leader. Hussein is expected to remain in a U.S. military prison until he is handed over to Iraqi authorities on the day of his execution. Hussein's lawyer, Khalil al-Dulaimi, said Thursday that international law should protect Hussein from being handed over to his enemies.
Human rights groups contacted on Thursday said that while they have expressed concerns about the Iraqi legal system, this latest claim has not been one of them.
The proposed revisions to the terrorism detainee bill could surface in the new Congress early in the year, staffers say -- with new sympathetic ears in leadership and a slim Democratic majority in Congress.
Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nevada, who will take control of the Senate as majority leader next year, "would support attempts to revisit some of the most extreme elements of the bill," including language stripping detainees of habeas corpus rights, although no immediate action is planned, said Reid spokesman Jim Manley.
Under the law, the president can convene military commissions to prosecute terror suspects so long as he follows certain guidelines, such as granting defendants legal counsel and access to evidence used against them. The bill also for the first time provides specific definitions of abusive treatment of prisoners, prohibiting some of the worst abuses like mutilation and rape but granting the president leeway to decide which specific interrogation techniques are permissible.
While the White House initially backed a harder line that would have left the president's interrogation policies virtually unchecked, Sens. John Warner, R-Virginia, Lindsey Graham, R-South Carolina, and John McCain, R-Arizona, insisted on language they said would protect U.S. international commitments on prisoner abuse.
But Specter, R-Pennsylvania, and Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, incoming chairman of the Judiciary Committee, say a disturbing provision left in the bill specifically prohibits a detainee from protesting his detention in court. This provision barring habeas corpus petitions means that only detainees selected for trial by the military are able to confront charges against them, leaving a vast majority of the estimated 14,000 military detainees in custody without a chance to plead their case.
"I think the courts are going to declare that part of the legislation unconstitutional," Specter said in an interview this month.
Leahy and other Democrats, led by Sen. Christopher Dodd, D-Connecticut, have another proposal that would go much further by eliminating other provisions of the White House bill. Among other things, Dodd's legislation would specifically bar coerced statements as testimony and limit the president's authority in interpreting international standards for prisoner treatment.
In contrast, the bill signed by Bush in October allows coerced evidence under narrow circumstances and leaves it up to the president to implement Geneva Convention standards.
Dodd and other Democrats say such protections should be afforded to terror suspects because the United States would want other nations to apply similar rights to U.S. troops captured in war.
"I strongly believe that terrorists who seek to destroy America must be punished for any wrongs they commit against this country," Dodd told Bush in a November letter, urging the president to delay implementation of the bill.
"But in my view, in order to sustain America's moral authority and win a lasting victory against our enemies, such punishment must be meted out only in accordance with the rule of law," Dodd added.
Both proposals were similar to ones shot down earlier this year by the Republican-led Congress. But while Dodd's proposal might not attract enough Republicans, who are reluctant to revisit the issue, Specter and Leahy's plan to restore habeas corpus rights to detainees could get through narrowly in the new Senate.
In September, a similar proposal offered by Specter as an amendment to the detainee bill was narrowly defeated in a 51-48 vote. Sen. Olympia Snowe -- a moderate Republican who this year expressed skepticism about the White House policy toward detainees -- did not vote.
With 49 Democrats in power next year, Snowe, R-Maine, and the four Republicans who supported the measure could tip the scales in another vote.
While the charge to revise the bill is expected to be led by the Senate, incoming House Speaker Nancy Pelosi also may want to take another look at it. Pelosi spokesman Drew Hammill said House Democrats "have a number of concerns about whether the bill is constitutional, and the impact that it will have on the treatment accorded our troops if they are captured in combat."

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Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/28/democrats.detainees.ap/index.html

budgie
12-29-2006, 05:33 PM
Good start to cleaning up Bush's mess.

Jobu
12-29-2006, 06:52 PM
I have no trust whatsoever in the Democrats on matters of national security.

They're not serious about protecting this country.

budgie
12-30-2006, 08:47 PM
Is that what Rove has you believing? Not supporting torture or starting unnecessary wars might seem a little sissy to you, but I fail to see how the Republican policies of the past few years have improved "Security(TM)". Anything that has worked (Homeland Security for example) has been a bipartisan effort. Every policy of your beloved Neocons (invading Iraq, torturing detainees, ignoring the Geneva Convention and pissing all over the UN) has only created more enemies. I dunno about you but the fewer enemies I have, the more secure I feel.

exarmyguard
12-31-2006, 09:19 AM
I have no trust whatsoever in the Democrats on matters of national security.

They're not serious about protecting this country.

Interesting thought. Totally wrong, but interesting.

helomech
12-31-2006, 09:28 AM
The Dems' may be interested in the safety of our country but they are just not firm enough in dealing the dirtbags of the world today.Recent US history of Dem foreign policy showed lack balls in the form of the Clinton administration.....not trying to start a flame war over who is right/wrong just giving an example.IMO,Dem foreign policy for the last 30 years has been disastrous because we are now dealing with the ill effects of said policy...

dangerclose
12-31-2006, 02:22 PM
Is that what Rove has you believing? Not supporting torture or starting unnecessary wars might seem a little sissy to you, but I fail to see how the Republican policies of the past few years have improved "Security(TM)". Anything that has worked (Homeland Security for example) has been a bipartisan effort. Every policy of your beloved Neocons (invading Iraq, torturing detainees, ignoring the Geneva Convention and pissing all over the UN) has only created more enemies. I dunno about you but the fewer enemies I have, the more secure I feel.



You are a sissy if that's how you feel.

We get attacked and it's "why didn't you connect the dots?" We don't get attacked for 5 years so obviously someone has been connecting the dots and then the dems are whining about the terrorists having their non-existent rights violated.


Shut up and be thankful you don't have a prayer rug or aren't dead.


Once again, natural selection is a farce. There's still far too many idiots in the world.

Dasein
12-31-2006, 03:17 PM
History has shown time and time again that the biggest threat to both liberty and security is the state. I'd much rather take my chances against the odd terrorist attack every decade than against another Dirty War or Pinochet.

mailmannz
12-31-2006, 05:26 PM
Really? How many dirty wars have been waged INSIDE America?

Oh thats right...them government types are out to rule the world and only you can see the truth! :D

Mailman

Dasein
12-31-2006, 05:42 PM
Ah, the old 'it can't happen here' defense. The simple fact is that governments as a whole are far worse threats than any terrorist organization could be, and we can learn from the experiences of other countries. It's not that governments are out to rule the world (they already do, for the most part), but that the amount of violence a government can bring against it's own people is exponentially greater than what any terrorist group can hope to do.

Hunterhr
12-31-2006, 06:07 PM
Interesting thought. Totally wrong, but interesting.

How exactly can he be wrong? He stated that he has no faith that the democrats can protect the country. Plan on disproving that he actually holds that opinion?

Durandal
01-01-2007, 07:48 PM
You are a sissy if that's how you feel.

Well, not too sure here, but I like to think that we are above fear and letting it rule us...letting it force us into a corner that goes against the grain on what being an American is all about.

We have people in Gitmo that are innocent. We have HAD people in Gitmo that were innocent.

Yet we had them in jail for years doing god knows what to them.

That is nothing I am proud of...

...sorry to hear that you are. p-)

Kant
01-01-2007, 10:23 PM
You are a sissy if that's how you feel.

We get attacked and it's "why didn't you connect the dots?" We don't get attacked for 5 years so obviously someone has been connecting the dots and then the dems are whining about the terrorists having their non-existent rights violated.


Shut up and be thankful you don't have a prayer rug or aren't dead.


Once again, natural selection is a farce. There's still far too many idiots in the world.
You're right.
After all, look at your posts.

budgie
01-02-2007, 01:05 AM
We get attacked and it's "why didn't you connect the dots?" We don't get attacked for 5 years so obviously someone has been connecting the dots and then the dems are whining about the terrorists having their non-existent rights violated.

As I said anything that has worked has been a joint effort. You can't claim that no democrats at all have been involved in Homeland Security, implementing the 9/11 commission or serving in the military and intelligence agencies. Just because another 9/11 hasn't happened under a Republican administration doesn't mean that only they deserve the credit. After all, the first 9/11 happened under Bush didin't it?

sir-chimp
01-02-2007, 02:47 AM
Febuary 26, 1993

Durandal
01-02-2007, 08:04 AM
After all, the first 9/11 happened under Bush didin't it?

Idiots...

...left OR right, they fill this forum.

The first "9/11" wasn't on 9/11. As Sir Chimp pointed out it happened on February 26, 1993. 1993 was a Clinton year. Last time I checked, Clinton was a Democrat.

I am assuming you, like dangerclose, are not an American....or, hopefully, do not vote. Such ignorance is pretty much the norm here in the States, on both sides of the political fence.

dangerclose
01-02-2007, 08:36 AM
Idiots...

...left OR right, they fill this forum.

The first "9/11" wasn't on 9/11. As Sir Chimp pointed out it happened on February 26, 1993. 1993 was Clinton year. Last time I checked, Clinton was a Democrat.




And who was implicated in that attack in 1993? Hint: starts with Saddam and rhymes with Hussein.


Such ignorance is pretty much the norm here in the States, on both sides of the political fence.

Present company included.

Durandal
01-02-2007, 08:54 AM
And who was implicated in that attack in 1993? Hint: starts with Saddam and rhymes with Hussein.

Ummm, ok. Please feel free to post the U.S. government document proving this to be true. I'd love to see it myself.

Its sort of like blaming Saudi Arabia for 9/11.

Sure, there were some fake Iraqi passports and Abdul Rahman Yasin was Iraqi, but the Federal government has never released data that makes an obvious link between the event and the Iraqi government or Saddam.

Next you are going to be telling me Mossad and the U.S. government was responsible for 9/11.

:cantbeli: rofl

budgie
01-02-2007, 12:38 PM
Idiots...

...left OR right, they fill this forum.

The first "9/11" wasn't on 9/11. As Sir Chimp pointed out it happened on February 26, 1993. 1993 was a Clinton year. Last time I checked, Clinton was a Democrat.

I am assuming you, like dangerclose, are not an American....or, hopefully, do not vote. Such ignorance is pretty much the norm here in the States, on both sides of the political fence.

Sounds like you're changing the subject to me. I was aware of the 1993 attack. But the first 9/11 remains so or it wouldn't be called 9/11 would it? I used this example to illustrate how it could be argued that mere Republicanism is not a surefire defense against terror. And you still haven't proven how Dems are weak on terror, or incapable of defending the country.

However one of your assumptions is right, although you must surely be the last on these forums to know. I am not American.

sir-chimp
01-02-2007, 01:08 PM
January 25, 1993

Febuary 26, 1993

April 19, 1995

June 25, 1996

October 12, 2000

Mr Gently Benevolent
01-02-2007, 02:06 PM
And who was implicated in that attack in 1993? Hint: starts with Saddam and rhymes with Hussein.You make me laugh as much as USA320, stick around your a comic.:)

Durandal
01-02-2007, 06:57 PM
Sounds like you're changing the subject to me.

Not at all, merely correcting an error on your part.


I was aware of the 1993 attack. But the first 9/11 remains so or it wouldn't be called 9/11 would it? I used this example to illustrate how it could be argued that mere Republicanism is not a surefire defense against terror. And you still haven't proven how Dems are weak on terror, or incapable of defending the country.

I am not defending Republicans. The dropped the ball just as much as the Democrats did and the did a godawful job, as Congress Majority leaders by following the Constitution AND reigning in the Executive Branch's powers.


However one of your assumptions is right, although you must surely be the last on these forums to know. I am not American.

You assume I pay attention to where everyone is from. I rarely converse with you and usually I just scan the plethora of posts on any particular topic that concerns me.

budgie
01-03-2007, 06:08 AM
Not at all, merely correcting an error on your part.



I was aware of the 1993 attack. But the first 9/11 remains so or it wouldn't be called 9/11 would it? I used this example to illustrate how it could be argued that mere Republicanism is not a surefire defense against terror. And you still haven't proven how Dems are weak on terror, or incapable of defending the country.

I hate to get bogged down in semantics here, which Is why I'm quoting myself word for word. I fail to see the 'error' you speak of.

Durandal
01-03-2007, 08:01 AM
I hate to get bogged down in semantics here, which Is why I'm quoting myself word for word. I fail to see the 'error' you speak of.

You got called out, you were wrong, not quit bitching.

The "first 9/11" implies one of two things...that there was a second, similar, event that followed the first, or you were describing the first similar event as a the first 9/11 style event.

I understand what you are TRYING to say, but your attempt sucked.

Macs.
01-03-2007, 08:23 AM
And who was implicated in that attack in 1993? Hint: starts with Saddam and rhymes with Hussein.


So we finally got a reason for OIF ! woot

Mastermind
01-03-2007, 08:48 AM
The Dems are stuck on Bush...they will now do all they can to re-live all their greatest moments, like this "Detainee Issue"...but this time with the Majority in their favor. They are devoid of any reasonable ideas either on foreign policy or on domestic issues. The two big issues they will want to avoid is the Permanent Tax Cut and the Illegal Mexican Immigration issues...why? To avoid looking like Republicans in 2008...So, the strategy is to smoke screen, to obfuscate, to pretend like they are doing "something" when they are not. If they get sniffed out over this (which I doubt very seriously they will considering their "lap dog" relationship with the main stream media), they will begin Impeachment Hearings in the House....anything to keep them from facing the real issues. They will most certainly be leading day-by-day and poll-by-poll. MM

budgie
01-03-2007, 09:10 AM
I understand what you are TRYING to say, but your attempt sucked.

Thank you, at least I'm sure now you're not trying to put words in my mouth or 'qualify' my statements for the good of our readers. Truth is I did disregard the 1993 attack when I was thinking of 9/11. Perhaps if I reword my original statement slightly we can all move on instead of bitching about who got 'caught out' on silly semantics:


As I said anything that has worked has been a joint effort. You can't claim that no democrats at all have been involved in Homeland Security, implementing the 9/11 commission or serving in the military and intelligence agencies. Just because another 9/11 hasn't happened under a Republican administration doesn't mean that only they deserve the credit. After all 9/11 happened under Bush in the first place didn't it?

I've simply removed the words 'the first 9/11' from the last line to make you happy. I've also added 'in the first place' which might not make you happy. The message hasn't changed.

Oh and I fixed a typo as well. Wanna get on me over that one or can we move on?

Jobu
01-03-2007, 12:35 PM
The Democrats in Congress will stick their heads in the sand and pretend we have no enemies like Clinton did in the White House for 8 years.

Say what you want about Bush but at least he's chosen to confront our enemies rather than appease them. It makes him unpopular in the polls and he knows this but he does it anyway. I don't see any Democrats with that kind of political will.

dj_1911
01-03-2007, 12:38 PM
WASHINGTON (*******) - FBI (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=FBI) agents at Guantanamo saw a military interrogator squat over the Koran in order to anger a prisoner and observed a detainee whose head was wrapped in duct tape, according to recently released FBI documents from a 2004 internal inquiry.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070103/ts_nm/guantanamo_fbi_dc

Oh the humanity!

budgie
01-03-2007, 02:02 PM
The Democrats in Congress will stick their heads in the sand and pretend we have no enemies like Clinton did in the White House for 8 years.

Say what you want about Bush but at least he's chosen to confront our enemies rather than appease them. It makes him unpopular in the polls and he knows this but he does it anyway. I don't see any Democrats with that kind of political will.

Firstly it's stretch to say the Clinton administration ignored enemies. They went out and made a few news ones in fact if you consider, say, Yugoslavia. And on the topic of making new enemies, Bush has written a whole new 'How To...' book on that.

And judging a President's success rate by his lack of popularity? Well that's what elections are for and I believe Bush's party lost the last one.

Hunterhr
01-03-2007, 02:02 PM
and observed a detainee whose head was wrapped in duct tape

Sounds like they took a wrong turn and ended up at a frat party.

Dasein
01-03-2007, 03:04 PM
Sounds like they took a wrong turn and ended up at a frat party.

And frats get busted and their members sent to jail for hazing.

ElHombre
01-03-2007, 03:04 PM
Say what you want about Bush but at least he's chosen to confront our enemies rather than appease them.

The facts don't support your statement. Why didn't Bush do anything about AQ before 9/11? The first meeting about it didn't occur until a wekk before 9/11, nine months after he took office.


It makes him unpopular in the polls and he knows this but he does it anyway. I don't see any Democrats with that kind of political will.

What's made him unpopular is his incompetence. He's created more enemies for the US and has proven that he can't even handle the enemies we already had. The Dems are going to have their hands full just trying to clean up this mess.

Macs.
01-03-2007, 03:17 PM
Say what you want about Bush but at least he's chosen to confront our enemies rather than appease them. It makes him unpopular in the polls and he knows this but he does it anyway. I don't see any Democrats with that kind of political will.

Uhh yes, we all remember how he for example confronted the Saudis...

I believe he rather head-over-heels confronted the next best and created more trouble instead of confronting the real enemies.

dangerclose
01-03-2007, 03:20 PM
Some Gitmo detainees are facing an obesity problem because their daily calorie allowance is that high. Our guards are wearing gloves while handling tax-payer bought korans (where's the ACLU on this one?) so as to not defile them all while being compared to the nazis of the concentration camps and the communists of the gulag.



Civil war please.

Dasein
01-03-2007, 04:13 PM
dangerclose, is the FBI lying about reports of abuse their people witnessed?

Mastermind
01-03-2007, 04:57 PM
Being a staunch believer in "One wrong seemingly justifying another"...I wonder how Christain detainees are fairing in Saudi or Iranaian jails...one must wonder. ;-) MM

Dasein
01-03-2007, 06:04 PM
Have those hypothetical Christian detainees been tried and convicted under Saudi or Iranian law, and are they treated differently than Muslim prisoners?

budgie
01-04-2007, 06:47 AM
Being a staunch believer in "One wrong seemingly justifying another"...I wonder how Christain detainees are fairing in Saudi or Iranaian jails...one must wonder. ;-) MM

I'm not a believer. We in the west, including America, are supposed to be better than our 'enemies'. Gitmo brings us all down to the level of the Saudis and Iranians.

Dronetek
01-04-2007, 07:53 AM
I'm not a believer. We in the west, including America, are supposed to be better than our 'enemies'. Gitmo brings us all down to the level of the Saudis and Iranians.

"Welcome to real life".