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XASA
04-19-2004, 08:42 AM
Today's NY Times reports on the growing dependence on contractors in this very lenghty and in-depth article:



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April 19, 2004
Security Companies: Shadow Soldiers in Iraq
By DAVID BARSTOW

They have come from all corners of the world. Former Navy Seal commandos from North Carolina. Gurkas from Nepal. Soldiers from South Africa's old apartheid government. They have come by the thousands, drawn to the dozens of private security companies that have set up shop in Baghdad. The most prized were plucked from the world's elite special forces units. Others may have been recruited from the local SWAT team.

But they are there, racing about Iraq in armored cars, many outfitted with the latest in high-end combat weapons. Some security companies have formed their own "Quick Reaction Forces," and their own intelligence units that produce daily intelligence briefs with grid maps of "hot zones." One company has its own helicopters, and several have even forged diplomatic alliances with local clans.

Far more than in any other conflict in United States history, the Pentagon is relying on private security companies to perform crucial jobs once entrusted to the military. In addition to guarding innumerable reconstruction projects, private companies are being asked to provide security for the chief of the Coalition Provisional Authority, L. Paul Bremer III, and other senior officials; to escort supply convoys through hostile territory; and to defend key locations, including 15 regional authority headquarters and even the Green Zone in downtown Baghdad, the center of American power in Iraq.

With every week of insurgency in a war zone with no front, these companies are becoming more deeply enmeshed in combat, in some cases all but obliterating distinctions between professional troops and private commandos. Company executives see a clear boundary between their defensive roles as protectors and the offensive operations of the military. But more and more, they give the appearance of private, for-profit militias — by several estimates, a force of roughly 20,000 on top of an American military presence of 130,000.

"I refer to them as our silent partner in this struggle," Senator John W. Warner, the Virginia Republican and Armed Services Committee chairman, said in an interview.

The price of this partnership is soaring. By some recent government estimates, security costs could claim up to 25 percent of the $18 billion budgeted for reconstruction, a huge and mostly unanticipated expense that could delay or force the cancellation of billions of dollars worth of projects to rebuild schools, water treatment plants, electric lines and oil refineries.

In Washington, defense experts and some leading Democrats are raising alarms over security companies' growing role in Iraq.

"Security in a hostile fire area is a classic military mission," Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island, a member of the Armed Service committee, wrote last week in a letter to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld signed by 12 other Democratic senators. "Delegating this mission to private contractors raises serious questions."

The extent and strategic importance of the alliance between the Pentagon and the private security industry has been all the more visible with each surge of violence. In recent weeks, commandos from private security companies fought to defend coalition authority employees and buildings from major assaults in Kut and Najaf, two cities south of Baghdad. To the north, in Mosul, a third security company repelled a direct assault on its headquarters. In the most publicized attack, four private security contractors were killed in an ambush of a supply convoy in Fallujah.

The Bush administration's growing dependence on private security companies is partly by design. Determined to transform the military into a leaner but more lethal fighting force, Mr. Rumsfeld has pushed aggressively to outsource tasks not deemed essential to war-making. But many Pentagon and authority officials now concede that the companies' expanding role is also a result of the administration's misplaced optimism about how Iraqis would greet American reconstruction efforts.

The authority initially estimated that security costs would eat up about 10 percent of the $18 billion in reconstruction money approved by Congress, said Capt. Bruce A. Cole of the Navy, a spokesman for the authority's program management office.

But after months of sabotage and insurgency, some officials now say a much higher percentage will go to security companies that unblushingly charge $500 to $1,500 a day for their most skilled operators.

"I believe that it was expected that coalition forces would provide adequate internal security and thus obviate the need for contractors to hire their own security," said Stuart W. Bowen Jr., the new inspector general of the authority. "But the current threat situation now requires that an unexpected, substantial percentage of contractor dollars be allocated to private security."

"The numbers I've heard range up to 25 percent," Mr. Bowen said in a telephone interview from Baghdad. Mark J. Lumer, the Pentagon official responsible for overseeing Army procurement contracts in Iraq, said he had seen similar estimates.

But Captain Cole said that the costs were unlikely to reach that level and that the progress of reconstruction would eventually alleviate the current security problems.

Still, in many ways the accelerating partnership between the military and private security companies has already outrun the planning for it.

There is no central oversight of the companies, no uniform rules of engagement, no consistent standards for vetting or training new hires. Some security guards complain bitterly of being thrust into combat without adequate firepower, training or equipment. There are stories of inadequate communication links with military commanders and of security guards stranded and under attack without reinforcements.

Only now are authority officials working to draft rules for private security companies. The rules would require all the companies to register and be vetted by Iraq's Ministry of Interior. They would also give them the right to detain civilians and to use deadly force in defense of themselves or their clients. "Fire only aimed shots," reads one proposed rule, according to a draft obtained by The New York Times.

Several security companies have themselves been pressing for the rules, warning that an influx of inexperienced and small companies has contributed to a chaotic atmosphere. One company has even enlisted a former West Point philosopher to help it devise rules of conduct.

"What you don't need is Dodge City out there any more than you've already got it," said Jerry Hoffman, chief executive of Armor Group, a large security company working in Iraq. "You ought to have policies that are fair and equal and enforceable."

Company executives argue that their services have freed up thousands of troops for offensive combat operations.

But some military leaders are openly grumbling that the lure of $500 to $1,500 a day is siphoning away some of their most experienced Special Operations people at the very time their services are most in demand.

Pentagon and coalition authority officials said they had no precise tally of how many private security guards are being paid with government funds, much less how many have been killed or wounded. Yet some Democrats and others suggest that the Bush administration is relying on these companies to both mask the cost of the war and augment an overstretched uniformed force.

Mr. Rumsfeld has praised the work of security companies and disputed the idea that they were being pressed into action to make up for inadequate troop levels.

Still, the government recently advertised for a big new contract — up to $100 million to guard the Green Zone in Baghdad.

"The current and projected threat and recent history of attacks directed against coalition forces, and thinly stretched military force, requires a commercial security force that is dedicated to provide Force Protection security," the solicitation states.

Danger Zones: Rising Casualties and Deal Making

The words did not match the images from Iraq.

At a Philadelphia conference last week, a government official pitched the promise of Iraq to dozens of business owners interested in winning reconstruction contracts.

William H. Lash III, a senior Commerce Department official, said Baghdad was flowering, that restaurants and hotels were reopening. He told of driving around Baghdad and feeling out of place wearing body armor among ordinary Iraqis. In any case, he joked, the armor "clashed with my suit," so he took it off.

But the view from Iraq is considerably less optimistic, with contracting companies and allied personnel alike hunkering down in walled-off compounds. "We're really in an unprecedented situation here," said Michael Battles, co-founder of the security company Custer Battles. "Civilian contractors are working in and amongst the most hostile parts of a conflict or postconflict scenario."

One measure of the growing danger comes from the federal Department of Labor, which handles workers' compensation claims for deaths and injuries among among contract employees working for the military in war zones.

Since the start of 2003, contractors have filed claims for 94 deaths and 1,164 injuries. For all of 2001 and 2002, by contrast, contractors reported 10 deaths and 843 injuries. No precise nation-by-nation breakdown is yet available, but Labor Department officials said an overwhelming majority of the cases since 2003 were from Iraq.

With mounting casualties has come the exponential growth of the little-known industry of private security companies that work in the world's hot spots. In Iraq, almost all of them are on the United States payroll, either directly through contracts with government agencies or indirectly through subcontracts with companies hired to rebuild Iraq.

Global Risk Strategies, one of the first security companies to enter Iraq, now has about 1,500 private guards in Iraq, up from 90 at the start of the war. The Steele Foundation has grown to 500 from 50. Erinys, a company barely known in the security industry before the war, now employs about 14,000 Iraqis.

In many cases companies are adapting to the dangers of Iraq by replicating the tactics they perfected on Special Forces teams. One, Special Operations Consulting-Security Management Group, has recruited Iraqi informants who provide intelligence that helps the company assess threats, said Michael A. Janke, the company's chief operating officer.

The combination of a deadly insurgency and billions of dollars in aid money has unleashed powerful market forces in the war zone. New security companies aggressively compete for lucrative contracts in a frenzy of deal making.

"A lot of firms have put out a shingle, and they're not geared to operate in that environment," said Mr. Hoffman, the Armor Group chief executive.

One security company, the Steele Foundation, recently turned down an $18 million contract for a corporation that wanted a security force deployed within only a few days; Steele said it simply could not find enough qualified guards so quickly. Another company promptly jumped at the contract.

"They just throw bodies at it," said Kenn Kurtz, Steele's chief executive officer.

Early on in the war, private security contractors came mostly from elite Special Operations forces. It is a small enough world that checking credentials was easy. But as demand has grown, so has the difficulty of finding and vetting qualified people.

"At what point do we start scraping the barrel?" asked Simon Faulkner, chief operating officer of Hart, a British security company. "Where are these guys coming from?"

When four guards working for a subcontractor hired by Erinys were killed in an attack in January, they were revealed to be former members of apartheid-era security forces in South Africa. One had admitted to crimes in an amnesty application to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission there. "We were very alarmed," said Michael Hutchings, the chief executive of Erinys Iraq. "We went back to our subcontractors and told them you want to sharpen up on your vetting."

Troops and Guards: Distinctions Are Hard to Keep

For private security contractors, the rules of engagement are seemingly simple. They can play defense, but not offense. In fact, military legal experts say, they risk being treated as illegal combatants if they support military units in hostile engagements.

"We have issued no contracts for any contractor to engage in combat," Mr. Lumer, the Army procurement official.

What has happened, Mr. Lumer said in an interview, is that the Pentagon has, to a "clearly unprecedented" degree, relied on security companies to guard convoys, senior officials and coalition authority facilities.

No one wants regular troops "standing around in front of buildings," he said. "You don't want them catching jaywalkers or handing out speeding tickets."

But in Iraq, insurgents ignore distinctions between security guards and combat troops. And what is more, they have made convoys and authority buildings prime targets. As a result, security contractors have increasingly found themselves in pitched battles, facing rocket-propelled grenades, not jaywalkers..

It is in those engagements, several security executives said, that the distinctions between defense and offense blur most. One notable example came two weeks ago, when eight security contractors from Blackwater USA helped repel a major attack on a coalition authority building in Najaf. The men fired thousands of rounds, and then summoned Blackwater helicopters for more.

In an interview, Patrick Toohey, vice president for government relations at Blackwater, grappled for the right words to describe his men's actions. At one moment he spoke proudly of how the Blackwater men "fought and engaged every combatant with precise fire." At another he insisted that his men had not been engaged in combat at all. "We were conducting a security operation," he said.

"The line," he finally said, "is getting blurred."

And it is likely to get more blurred, with private security companies lobbying for permission to carry heavier weapons.

"We will keep pressing for that," said Mr. Faulkner, the Hart executive — especially after four of his men spent 14 hours on a roof of their building in Kut fighting off 10 times as many insurgents. Another Hart employee was killed in the assault, his body later dismembered by the mob.

"I cannot accept a situation where four of our people are being besieged by 40 or 60 Iraqis, where they're talking to me on a telephone saying, `Who's coming to help?' " Mr. Faulkner said.

They are also seeking ways to improve communications with military units.

Two weeks ago, a team of private security guards fought for hours to defend a coalition authority building in Kut. They later complained that allied Ukrainian forces had not responded to their calls for help.

Even routine encounters between allied forces and private security teams can be perilous. Mr. Janke, the security company executive and himself a former Navy Seal, said that in a handful of cases over the last year, jittery soldiers had "lit up" — fired on — security companies' convoys.

No one was killed, but standard identification procedures might have prevented those incidents, Mr. Janke said.

Sorting out lines of authority and communication can be complex. Many security guards are hired as "independent contractors" by companies that, in turn, are sub-contractors of larger security companies, which are themselves subcontractors of a prime contractor, which may have been hired by a United States agency.

In practical terms, these convoluted relationships often mean that the governmental authorities have no real oversight of security companies on the public payroll.

In other cases, though, the government insists that security companies abide by detailed rules. A solicitation for work to provide security for the United States Agency for International Development, for example, contains requirements on everything from attire to crisis management.

"If a chemical and/or biological threat or attack occurs, keep the area near the guard post clear of people," the document states, adding in capital letters, "Remember, during the confusion of this type of act, the guards must still provide security for employees or other people in the area."

The words are emphatic, but empty.

Government contracting officials and company executives concede that private guards have every right to abandon their posts if they deem the situation too unsafe. They are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, nor can they be prosecuted under civil laws or declared AWOL.

Scott Earhart said he left Iraq because he was disgusted at the risks he was asked to take without adequate protection or training.

Mr. Earhart, 34, arrived in Iraq in October to work as a dog handler for a bomb-detection company hired by Custer Battles. A former sheriff's deputy in Maryland, he said that there were not enough weapons and that his body armor was substandard.

"If you didn't get to the supply room in time you wouldn't have a gun," he said.

Mr. Earhart said the breaking point came when he was asked to drive unarmed to Baghdad from Amman, Jordan. "I felt my safety was in jeopardy," he said.

Mr. Battles, of Custer Battles, said that it had taken longer than expected to get weapons shipments, and that the company had had "growth issues, like everybody else." But, he emphasized, "under no circumstances did we let people out into the field without proper equipment."

Clearer Rules: Search for Standards, Even a Philosophy

For more than a decade, military colleges have produced study after study warning of the potential pitfalls of giving contractors too large a role on the battlefield. The claimed cost savings are exaggerated or illusory, the studies argue. Questions of coordination and oversight have not been adequately resolved. Troops could be put at risk.

Several senior American commanders in Iraq and Kuwait, or who have recently returned, expressed mixed feelings about the use of private security companies.

"The key thing is there are many requirements that are still best filled with combat units that can call on gunship support — Apache and Kiowa Warriors overhead — medevac, and just plain old reinforcements," one senior Army general wrote in an e-mail message to The Times. "Our task is to outsource what MAKES SENSE given the enemy situation."

In an unusual reversal of roles, the push for industry standards is coming from security executives themselves. In Washington, Pentagon lawyers are reviewing the rules governing security companies. At the same time, coalition authority and Iraqi officials are drafting operating rules for the private security companies.

The draft rules urge the use of "graduated force" — first shout, then shove, then show your weapon, then shoot. And they spell out when the guards may use deadly force. But they do not cover precisely how security operators will be screened and trained.

For now, companies are often writing their own rules and procedures for Iraq.

"It's an industry that if it's not careful could easily blend into what is usually referred to as war profiteers or soldiers of fortune or mercenaries," "It is a very ill-defined operating space right now," Mr. Battles said. "We draw the lines."

Custer Battles went so far as to hire an expert in military ethics, Paul Christopher, who taught philosophy at West Point. Mr. Christopher is helping the company define its place and policies in the chaos of Iraq.

"He's the anti-Rambo," Mr. Battles said. "This is a deep thinker."


Eric Schmitt contributed reporting from Washington for this article.



Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search | Corrections | Help | Back to Top

front
04-19-2004, 10:15 AM
Source for the above is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/19/international/middleeast/19SECU.html?ex=1082952000&en=6ee1433c827a195d&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/04/18/international/baghdad.184.1.jpg
Private security guards after an insurgent attack in Baghdad.

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/04/19/international/baghdad.184.2.heli.jpg
A Blackwater USA helicopter.

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/04/19/international/secu.184.chang.jpg
Trainees of the private security company Blackwater USA in Moyock, N.C., rehearsing an action.

UkrainianAmerican
04-19-2004, 10:19 AM
Is it just me, or is this article filled with sneering, and disapprovement at the use of PMC's? :|

front
04-19-2004, 10:25 AM
" In many cases companies are adapting to the dangers of Iraq by replicating the tactics they perfected on Special Forces teams. One, Special Operations Consulting-Security Management Group, has recruited Iraqi informants who provide intelligence that helps the company assess threats, said Michael A. Janke, the company's chief operating officer."

I wonder if the Iraqi informants have been vetted first by the Pentagon? Or even released for employment to the PMCs after a full debrief by the Pentagon?

It would be a strange day if Iraqi informants with important intel decided to hold onto the juiciest bits because they mistakenly thought they could get the highest price for their info from a PMC and not the Pentagon... to prove their worth perhaps.

The article constantly refers to "blurred lines". That is not good.

cheers

front

XASA
04-19-2004, 11:28 AM
I have no doubt that the men are qualified to do the job they were hired to do. My concern is the "privatization" of what should be a military function. I would rather see contractors hired to work in supply, transportation, messhalls, clerks, etc, which would free up soldiers, marines and airmen to fulfill the combat arms roles.

Putting civilians in harms way in a combat zone regardless of their military experience just doesn't seem to be a viable solution, especially since the occupation will probably be a years-long one.

TriggerPuller
04-19-2004, 12:04 PM
Just got a second here. I work for one of the companies mentioned and Iam 2nd in charge of a QRF.

TP

California Joe
04-19-2004, 12:06 PM
Hiya pal. Keep your powder dry.

XASA
04-19-2004, 12:36 PM
Well, just knowing you're in charge of a QRF TP means things will certainly get better. Good luck and keep your head on a swivel jarhead :P

army cadet_ngcsu
04-19-2004, 12:59 PM
Rumsfeld is a complete idiot. Why in the hell is he going to pay for someone to do a job for about $6,000 a week when you have plenty of soldiers who are willing to do it for $6,000 a month...where is his logic. He talks about cutting costs and use of man power, but I do not see the benefits in hiring these people and their companies. They are not uniformed military men who we can order around in time of need and it seems like they need the military more than the military needs them. And Rumsfeld and the Congress wonders where all the money went to that could have built two new divisions that they desperatley need.

NcDeuce
04-19-2004, 01:11 PM
soldiers who are willing to do it for $6,000 a month

Not even that,
unless you're an O-6 with about 12+ years under your belt.

WARPIG
04-19-2004, 01:14 PM
Rumsfeld is a complete idiot. Why in the hell is he going to pay for someone to do a job for about $6,000 a week when you have plenty of soldiers who are willing to do it for $6,000 a month...where is his logic. He talks about cutting costs and use of man power, but I do not see the benefits in hiring these people and their companies. They are not uniformed military men who we can order around in time of need and it seems like they need the military more than the military needs them. And Rumsfeld and the Congress wonders where all the money went to that could have built two new divisions that they desperatley need.

Grow up dip stick..
Contract shooters are paid big money because a private company foots the overhead. We pay for a contract, we don't cut checks to individuals.
What do you think the overhead for a platoon of similarly skilled/experienced grunts costs? Basepay/BAH/SGLI/TRICARE/BAS/COLA/Hazard pay/ uniforms/equipment/ retirement/ etc.
A contract has a visible price tag up front, hazards and such are the private company's responsibility, manpower is pulled by individual choice, not by DOD unit assignment.
Wake up man. Private contract is a bargain. Deployment and redeployment costs, support, peripherals are all bundled in the contract. Training and security clearance are also at the cost of the company.

pinkeye
04-19-2004, 02:09 PM
i do not know what the average dss officer (agent?) earns, but i'm assuming, and please correct me if i am wrong, that the pay is considerably lower than what these "contractors" earn, yet dss officers and the like provide the same type of services (i.e. protection) in equally dangerous environments. same goes for any government employee providing cp work.
what motivates highly-skilled and much-valued personnel to leave the military for the private sector? i think we all know the answer to this. there's nothing wrong with wanting to earn a decent salary, but i personally have more faith in the guys who do their jobs out of a sense of duty rather than a financial pay-off. it's my understanding that military pay is lousy, yet there are thousands of brave men and women who continue to serve their countries nonetheless. i would much rather spend my tax-dollars on the troops than on "contractors"...

front
04-19-2004, 03:46 PM
Some advice on the legality of armed civlian contractors in Iraq from an Army lawyer who is blogging from Iraq:

"This blog details my life in Iraq as an Army lawyer with the 1st Infantry Division's, 2nd (DAGGER) Brigade"

http://daggerjag.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_daggerjag_archive.html

"We have been dealing with the legal issues surrounding contractors for quite a while. In recent years the army has become more and more reliant upon contractors to do almost anything and everything for us when deployed. It really began getting big during Bosnia and Kosovo where all the basecamps and logistics functions were handled by KBR. But that really was a permissive environment compared to Iraq and the contractors were not as much at risk as they are now.

We've received a number of requests from contractors to carry weapons. Not all of them are allowed to. International law prevents us from arming civilians accompanying the force. They are non-combatants who are not supposed to carry arms or wear a uniform. If we give them weapons and training then their status is even murkier. There is NO protection under international law for armed civilians in a combat zone, with one minor exception for a Levee en Masse. Otherwise they are unlawful combatants. (Note this is the same rationale applied to the detainees in Guantanamo and the reason they are called unlawful enemy combatants. We caught them in civilian clothes fighting us.)

In the case of the four contractors that were killed in Fallujah. They were authorized to carry weapons since they were hired as security contractors. The authorization has to come from very high up the chain of command but they work with no legal authority. They have weapons permits that allow them to carry their weapons but they really are in no way connected with the military. This is a very tricky legal issue since the military really can't do what we're doing without contractors but we really aren't allowed to let them protect themselves.

The Geneva conventions were designed to protect civilians and soldiers on both sides of a conflict. The assumption is that both parties to a conflict will observe the rules and regulations. In Iraq it is patently obvious that our enemies have absolutely zero regard for international law. So it is a bit ridiculous for us, in this circumstance, to prevent the civilians working for us to protect themselves."

army cadet_ngcsu
04-19-2004, 04:54 PM
Grow up dip stick..
Contract shooters are paid big money because a private company foots the overhead. We pay for a contract, we don't cut checks to individuals.
What do you think the overhead for a platoon of similarly skilled/experienced grunts costs? Basepay/BAH/SGLI/TRICARE/BAS/COLA/Hazard pay/ uniforms/equipment/ retirement/ etc.
A contract has a visible price tag up front, hazards and such are the private company's responsibility, manpower is pulled by individual choice, not by DOD unit assignment.
Wake up man. Private contract is a bargain. Deployment and redeployment costs, support, peripherals are all bundled in the contract. Training and security clearance are also at the cost of the company.

Ya right, you grow up asshole! How do you consider it a bargain when most of the men in those units were former military and many of them today are leaving SF units because they get better pay and benefits. And what, do you not think that the companies have to pay for uniforms/equipment/retirement/ etc just like our military has to also??? Yes, a contract has a visible price tag...that's why the DoD estimated that these private companies would suck up about 10% of the Iraq Aid Bill...now they're going to take up to about 25%, nice clear cut contract. They're not a better deal...they'll still do not have clear rules of engangement and other technicalities like that. Oh, and that is why Gen. Abizaid is asking for two more army divisions...not British or American private security companies. Also, history has proven the mercs are not always the best to employ.

And another thing...can you just debate with someone and not use personnal insults, its getting real ****ing annoying. After all, it is just your opinion and its not like you are absolutely correct and Mr. Warpig the all-knowing!

Beowulf
04-19-2004, 05:01 PM
The short term use of contractors is more cost effective in light of the temporary spending authorized by congress.

usa320
04-19-2004, 05:01 PM
Im really indiferent when it comes to the use of PMC's. I mean there are advantages and disadvantages. They get paid more and it adds to the number of forces availible. But on the other hand they dont have the same supporting elements that the military does, and it adds chaos to confusion in some cases.

MetalBoy
04-19-2004, 05:20 PM
Is it just me or does Custer Battles seem like one of the substandard security companies over there? I would hope that every employee would high-end equipment availible to them.

TP have your employers been treating you well over there?

kommando
04-19-2004, 06:29 PM
its amazing the amount of skill-level and money going out to contractors
there was a thing in the courier-mail today that said 5 ex-SASR soldiers and 2 NSW State Protection Group officers had travelled to iraq to do private security work and are earning in EXCESS OF $300,000 :| holy crap
thats alot more then what they would of been earning in the regiment.

i rekon good on em though, its in their blood why not go out and do what u want to do. (and get paid well aswell)

newho thats my 2cents.

WARPIG
04-20-2004, 09:29 AM
army cadet_ngcsu wrote

Ya right, you grow up asshole! How do you consider it a bargain when most of the men in those units were former military and many of them today are leaving SF units because they get better pay and benefits. And what, do you not think that the companies have to pay for uniforms/equipment/retirement/ etc just like our military has to also??? Yes, a contract has a visible price tag...that's why the DoD estimated that these private companies would suck up about 10% of the Iraq Aid Bill...now they're going to take up to about 25%, nice clear cut contract. They're not a better deal...they'll still do not have clear rules of engangement and other technicalities like that. Oh, and that is why Gen. Abizaid is asking for two more army divisions...not British or American private security companies. Also, history has proven the mercs are not always the best to employ.

And another thing...can you just debate with someone and not use personnal insults, its getting real f*** annoying. After all, it is just your opinion and its not like you are absolutely correct and Mr. Warpig the all-knowing!

Thanks for pointing that out Mr. Obvious...

If I'm an asshole, Rumsfeld is an idiot.. then your a dipstick. I can live with that. Sounds like besides an education, you need a hug.

Relax cadet. Most of us would rather see the muscle over there be uniformed Joes. As an MP.. MSR operations and security are my bread and butter. I know there is a need for help out there but the fact that there are free guns roaming out there kind of makes me uneasy too. Fact is, the conracted trigger is needed, cost effective, and relevent.

Look....Harry Palms is a big shot VIP who has to travel in Iraq. The PSD that Uncle Deep pockets has to provide can be a team of MPs. One full squad will be the close int babysitters. This squad is ordered to SRP, MOB, go to PSD school, and deploy to IRAQ. Half the squad is Married and has kids. That equals hundreds and thousands of dollars in insurance, benefits, and pay allowances. Training is pretty expensive. And all the equipment is provided by the Unit. They only carry what is on their TOE. They are not all hand picked. Not likely any of them have any special skills. Benefits, and support for these soldiers will go on for years after they return from duty, even if they get out of the service.
With contractors, you can hand pick a PSD Squad from former military, operators, swat, etc. Typical pay structure, benefits, maybe even 401K. Or.. more likely these guys are subcontracted. They are payed by contract and only some benefits are provided. Maybe all or maybe some equipment is furnished. When the contract is over, no more pay and benefits. Uncle Sam payed for your services up front. You don't get GI BILL, you don't get 30 days of paid leave, you don't get VA benefits. See the difference? Well whether you see it or not, flipping out because I was a little harsh on you is just typical of a cadet. Or maybe I am just hard on cadets. I have gone through 4 cadets in my platoon and none of them ever seems to make it in the platoon or get comissioned.

army cadet_ngcsu
04-20-2004, 12:28 PM
LOL, do you not think that the contractors have insurance or benefits? Do they pay for their own hospital bills when they get wounded? Why do you think that the down payment jumped from 10% to over 25%?

Rumsfeld is an idiot. The Stryker is not all it is cracked up to be, he cancelled the Crusader and Comanche weapons programs (**** we need), hassles the army with CAS and wants to decommission the A-10 further ****ing over the army's CAS, he basically fired Gen. Eric Shinseki for publicly stating that the occupation plan for Iraq is complete crap. He called for a minimum 750,000 troops and we've only got about 140,000 and look at how **** is going. So yes, Rummy is an idiot and you're definetly an asshole.

I do not consider myself a know it all like you and you even try to insult me because I am a cadet! Hahahaha...our cadets ****ing blow the competition away at Advanced Camp and our average cadet cadets his/her's top three picks for their branch. We have people here that are prior service who've been to basic and said that our FROG week was harder than any week in basic. How many cadets do you know of that train with Army Rangers at Camp Merrill and who have military advisors who are former Delta Force and Green Berets???

Argyll
04-20-2004, 12:32 PM
You should talk big when you're through with the program buddy,right now you know Jack **** about the Security contractors here in Iraq,and until you've proved you can cut the mustard when the **** hits the fan,then I'd act a bit more mature if I were you.

army cadet_ngcsu
04-20-2004, 12:44 PM
LOL, I'm not talking **** about the contractors or questioning their patriotism or their skills. I'm questioning whether or not the money and assets put into them is worth it when we can be investing it in permanent divisions, especialy being that is what the brass is calling for in Iraq, not more security contractors.

Also, I can get on a name in here and characterize myself as one of these fake hooah guys and say I've got my SF, Ranger, or atleast Airborne tab. For all you know WARPIG or even you can be Bantu tribesman with one leg. But yes, I am a cadet who attends a Senior Military College. From what our FTX's show (we use MILES and all the other cool ****) I should be able to hold my own pretty well, or atleast that's what Captain Duggan says (A GREEN BERET WHO SERVED IN A-STAN). When I'm insulted, do you think I'm just going to take that **** from some stranger I don't know??? **** NO!

Trigger
04-20-2004, 12:47 PM
Captain Duggan says (A GREEN BERET WHO SERVED IN A-STAN).
Do you mean a 'Special Forces Officer'?

army cadet_ngcsu
04-20-2004, 12:49 PM
Do you mean a 'Special Forces Officer'?

That's another name for them...but I'm old school Barry Sadler and like to call them Green Berets.

Argyll
04-20-2004, 12:56 PM
LOL, I'm not talking **** about the contractors or questioning their patriotism or their skills. I'm questioning whether or not the money and assets put into them is worth it when we can be investing it in permanent divisions, especialy being that is what the brass is calling for in Iraq, not more security contractors.

Also, I can get on a name in here and characterize myself as one of these fake hooah guys and say I've got my SF, Ranger, or atleast Airborne tab. For all you know WARPIG or even you can be Bantu tribesman with one leg. But yes, I am a cadet who attends a Senior Military College. From what our FTX's show (we use MILES and all the other cool ****) I should be able to hold my own pretty well, or atleast that's what Captain Duggan says (A GREEN BERET WHO SERVED IN A-STAN). When I'm insulted, do you think I'm just going to take that **** from some stranger I don't know??? f*** NO!


Very good.......................guess what you don't fokin bleed like a stuck pig when "playing" with Miles gear.............take a reality check kiddo,you're talking like this is a game,once you start seeing what an IED does to a human body,or what a 7.62 does to a head then you'll soon realise it's a whole new ball game.
Take a trip down to the Hospital here in Baghdad and see what effects war has...................oh that's right you can't .......................coz you're not in the fokin forces yet...............wise up,and once you do,then you can walk the walk,but until you've taken incoming .........just shut up!

army cadet_ngcsu
04-20-2004, 01:07 PM
OK, we can do this circular arguement all day. Like I said before...I'm a cadet, you're obviously a TRUE, GROWN UP, and CIB wearing soldier. I've never questioned your skills or patriotism, but I'm only saying...that I'm now going to class like the little cadet that I am and I'll be on again to read all of your glorious and uplifting messages in a couple hours!

Argyll
04-20-2004, 01:10 PM
NO CIB mate...................I'm a Jock.

You need to chill a little there will be wars to fight in the future,listen and learn,be the grey man,and listen to the SNCO's,take everything on board and don't act as if you're the dogs bollox,it only counts when the rounds are coming back at you.

Beowulf
04-20-2004, 01:15 PM
So yes, Rummy is an idiot and you're definetly an asshole. Well Cadet why don't you write the SECDEF a memo, and we'll get this mess sorted out then...

I do not consider myself a know it all like you reeeallly didn't you just call the Secretary of Defense an idiot...hmmm. yeah you're Mr. humility... ...


We have people here that are prior service who've been to basic and said that our FROG week was harder than any week in basic. Well my Drill Sgt at Benning (prior service) said our FTX was harder than any week at any ROTC..maybe that's something instructors tell trainees...


How many cadets do you know of that train with Army Rangers at Camp Merrill and who have military advisors who are former Delta Force and Green Berets??? Tiger Woods just trained at SWC for a week doesn't mean he knows more than an NCO w/ a few years experience... I also know a **** load of afghans that had SF and delta advisers and some of them weren't worth two ****s either....


Besides aren't you a weekend warrior and you want to run around like you're some hot shot. Talk to me if you've got a ****load of tabs on your arm... Ahh, I see you can only talk to NCO's with tabs...so you're that high speed that you don't even associate with non-triple canopy personnel is that it?

Yeah...you're gonna make a great officer alright, you tell that 1st sgt that you can't talk to him b/c he's not highly trained enough. I hope you end up in division (82nd) and some NCO skysharks your ass right into a medevac chopper.

Don't even get me started on that weekend warrior bull****...

Dennis G
04-20-2004, 01:18 PM
Argyll may I ask what firm your working for? You can PM if you wish. If you see anyone working with Meyer & Associates let me know.

Stay safe buddy

Dennis

WARPIG
04-20-2004, 03:13 PM
Kicking and screaming because he got called a dipstick. This is why I eat cadets for breakfast. Humility is the one lesson that they need the most because they think boyscout camp run by some tabbed staff makes them high speed.

Look junior... you don't have the experience or maturity to tell anyone which training program is better than another much less speak on what SECDEF spends money on. Your opinion is welcome but when you attatch insult to your Senior staff... it just proves that you haven't sworn the oath yet. I don't like all the decisions I have to put up with either but I don 't run around calling the brass idiots or assholes. General Shinseki being fired isn't all that sad to me but I won't be a disrespectful puke like you are. Ask the "high speed" cadets in my unit if they think their training is top notch and demanding. Their answer will be like yours. Ask the ones that have had the pleasure of working a mission with me if they think I am an asshole.. they might agree with you too. They will all say they learned something though. Some learn about how to lead.. some learn a little humility.. the all learn some perspective and where they measure up. You're welcome to come out and ruck up with me boy. If your skill and knowledge are as big as your mouth... I look forward to my lesson. If your not likeing the way I come at you.. tuff. Tell your cadre to suger coat your lesssons but I don't coddle anyone. Especially if they are training to be leaders.

NcDeuce
04-20-2004, 03:46 PM
I do not consider myself a know it all like you and you even try to insult me because I am a cadet! Hahahaha...our cadets f*** blow the competition away at Advanced Camp and our average cadet cadets his/her's top three picks for their branch. We have people here that are prior service who've been to basic and said that our FROG week was harder than any week in basic. How many cadets do you know of that train with Army Rangers at Camp Merrill and who have military advisors who are former Delta Force and Green Berets???

Top 3 branch choices = should happen at all 270 schools with ROTC, unless you just let your grades slip.

More than half of the cadets here are prior service. Actually have two guys who have gone through Ranger School and wear the real tab, not that Ranger Challenge for cadets. Actually also have one guy who fought with the 101st in the first Gulf War. Our battalion has trained with "high-speed" units as well...doesn't neccesarily mean we are better than other programs.

Bottom line, we are cadets...just cadets, nothing more; nothing less. If you graduate and get commissioned, you will be a 2nd Lt., nothing more; nothing less. You still won't know half as much when you're a 2nd Lt. compared to your senior NCOs. Try wearing your uniform with your cadet patches and all on post and try to strut your stuff like you're hot shi*. I guarantee you'll look like a f*cking idiot to the men who REALLY wear that uniform.

ibstolidude
04-20-2004, 03:49 PM
Captain Duggan says (A GREEN BERET WHO SERVED IN A-STAN).
Do you mean a 'Special Forces Officer'?
no he was a hat in during OEF.

ibstolidude
04-20-2004, 03:55 PM
NO CIB mate...................I'm a Jock.

You need to chill a little there will be wars to fight in the future,listen and learn,be the grey man,and listen to the SNCO's,take everything on board and don't act as if you're the dogs bollox,it only counts when the rounds are coming back at you.
nnaw - let him grow up to be the kinda officer that gets left behind when the soldiers know the **** will hit the fan
- man the radio, bitch;umm sir.

ibstolidude
04-20-2004, 04:04 PM
Besides aren't you a weekend warrior and you want to run around like you're some hot shot. Talk to me if you've got a ****load of tabs on your arm - man I hope this is a misquote -
kid, have your arguement if you want, but you know nothing - You sound like a walking liability. I suggest you repeat your comment to the bubbas who train you and see where it leads. I have sandals that have more time in hostile fire zones than you do time in service as a cadet. I would trust our mechanics before I put any faith in you.

So you did training with Rangers, and got a class from a long-tabber, sounds like you are on the fast track to secret squirrel-dom. I bet you consider yourself an honorary SEAL cause you saw the charlie Sheen movie?

NcDeuce
04-20-2004, 04:09 PM
I do not consider myself a know it all like you and you even try to insult me because I am a cadet! Hahahaha...our cadets f*** blow the competition away at Advanced Camp and our average cadet cadets his/her's top three picks for their branch. We have people here that are prior service who've been to basic and said that our FROG week was harder than any week in basic. How many cadets do you know of that train with Army Rangers at Camp Merrill and who have military advisors who are former Delta Force and Green Berets???

Besides aren't you a weekend warrior and you want to run around like you're some hot shot. Talk to me if you've got a ****load of tabs on your arm...


Top 3 branch choices = should happen at all 270 schools with ROTC, unless you just let your grades slip.

More than half of the cadets here are prior service. Actually have two guys who have gone through Ranger School and wear the real tab, not that Ranger Challenge for cadets. Actually also have one guy who fought with the 101st in the first Gulf War. Our battalion has trained with "high-speed" units as well...doesn't neccesarily mean we are better than other programs.

Bottom line, we are cadets...just cadets, nothing more; nothing less. If you graduate and get commissioned, you will be a 2nd Lt., nothing more; nothing less. You still won't know half as much when you're a 2nd Lt. compared to your senior NCOs. Try wearing your uniform with your cadet patches and all on post and try to strut your stuff like you're hot shi*. I guarantee you'll look like a f*cking idiot to the men who REALLY wear that uniform.

You know...there are countless men in the military who don't wear the tab or scroll and are just as good soldiers. The last four Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have been from ROTC programs, you certainly don't do it justice. Step down from that cadet high horse...err...donkey...

ibstolidude
04-20-2004, 04:11 PM
hey ease off the Triple Canopy Cadet : army cadet_ngcsu - he is a member of CAG - Cadets Are Glorious

He knows more than anyone short of SOF.

Actually I think I like "Triple Threat Cadet" better.

droopy
04-20-2004, 07:15 PM
soldiers who are willing to do it for $6,000 a month

Not even that,
unless you're an O-6 with about 12+ years under your belt.

One romanian died and another was wounded doing VIP detail last week near Al Hillal they were payed by 800$/month :(

mocking_loudly_died
04-20-2004, 07:50 PM
There are certainly a lot of mouthy young people with limited / no real experience military wise. The most logical thing to do in joining the armed services would be to keep your mouth in check and open those ears.
It could lead to a much more healthier existence.

California Joe
04-20-2004, 08:52 PM
It's like an arrogance bomb went off in here. Unbelievable.

ibstolidude
04-20-2004, 08:58 PM
It's like an arrogance bomb went off in here. Unbelievable.
Now that is a great line.

Flagg
04-20-2004, 09:02 PM
It's like an arrogance bomb went off in here. Unbelievable.

I reckon SNCOs should be issued a single monopoly-like "get out of jail free card" for dealing with arrogant know it all junior officers or officer-to bes.

Full discretion on it's use is up to the SNCO

Anything from a parade ground beating up to and including a dirt nap in extreme cases to avoid polluting the gene pool

And after reading this thread....no...I'm not joking ;)

California Joe
04-20-2004, 09:02 PM
Got cadets slagging BTDT's
people calling Royal Marines slang terms for ******'s
and Duci arguing English with an English teacher
Dogs and cats living together......

Flagg
04-20-2004, 09:16 PM
They're back

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/a/apocalypse.htm

http://www.marveldirectory.com/teams/apocalypseshorsemen.htm

...time to get on the horn and call Stan Lee

Pooterman
04-20-2004, 09:26 PM
I didnt watch my buddies die face down in NAM so this f*cking strumpet , this f*cking whore could waltz in here and talk ****.

Red
04-20-2004, 09:28 PM
this is the funniest thread in a long time.ngsu_cadet,you need to show respect, that is the number one quality of a good officer ;)

army cadet_ngcsu
04-20-2004, 09:40 PM
Well, I seem to be the quite the popular person on the forum today aren't I? Okay, first of all did I once ever say that NCO's or SNCO's are useless or that I know more than them or anything like that???NO! You're puting words in my mouth. It is the active duty NCO's that are at my school that make up the backbone of the Corps of Cadets and we learn a lot from them. They are our mentors and we greatly respect them. However, I am not going to respect some stranger off of the net WHO SAYS HE IS RAMBO that I do not know. Any NCO at my school can call me a dipstick or an arse if he likes and I won't say a word, hell, I might even tell him I agree with him.

Another thing, I voiced my opinion about security contractors in Iraq and slung some mud about Rumsfeld (Rummy sucks) and now all of a sudden I need some of my NCO's to beat me up?!?!?! What the hell, I never once said that I was Rambo or that I knew more than anyone in here in the military, I just simply stated that I believe that I can handle my own. As for WARPIG, you need to lighten up, let me get on another name on here if it is the "cadet" that you have to DISCRIMINATE against since you seem to have some sort of affinity for cadets. Hey you said it yourself..."I eat cadets for breakfast." I never said anything like that.

Haiw
04-20-2004, 10:01 PM
Hey you said it yourself..."I eat cadets for breakfast." I never said anything like that.
What does his diet have to do with anything?!

ibstolidude
04-20-2004, 10:02 PM
I would also caution your punking on Reserve and NG - SOF and SF units in the Army and Navy possess reserve and NG units. The AD would cripple with out the support of the NG and reserve. I personally know a reserve soldier that is retiring with 3 Wartime SSI's awarded, lord knows how many deployments (more than a dozen), almost approx 4000 points and has done **** with units you have never heard of, in his time in SOF and aviation - he also is/was an NCO. I will not even mention the prior service dudes in the reserve and NG and their former unit affiliations.
Tell shrek - an NG SF member and Senior NCO about what a bitch he is for being only a Nation Gaurdsman NCO - let him tell you the role he played fighting AQ and TB along the pakistani boarder, the kind of control & responsibility that goes with it - and the units and organizations with whom he worked. I have know NG troops to pull CP duties, in war zones, for the SECDEF, Com CENTCOM Gen Franks (former) and many other duties that I will not discuss.

Your arrogance and choice of comments drew the attention, not your opinion of Rumsfield. There is a reason cadets are in school NOT leading troops - There is a reason why intergallactic wing commanders have no legitimate rank in the military yet - there is a reason why your education does not end after ROTC. There is a reason why God gave you 2 ears and 1 mouth.

learn from it today or burn from it later. Either way the NCO's will be driving on.

Beowulf
04-20-2004, 10:03 PM
Just saw this:


All about army cadet_ngcsu

Rank 1 Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Total posts: 148
[0.07% of total / 0.70 posts per day]
Find all posts by army cadet_ngcsu
Location: Dahlonega, GA
Website:
Occupation: Killer in Training
Interests: Military and Politics


Killer in training??!!! HAAA. I hope you branch Chemical, you doofus.

Pooterman
04-20-2004, 10:07 PM
First of all Army cadet_negru****

:backhand:

Secondly

Somebody who is in medical school does not lecture established docters about procedure and protocal. You're probably 21 years old. The fact that you call our SECY of Defence an Asshole makes me think that you think you can do a better job. Am I wrong? Are we going to split hairs here? You are the definition of an armchair commando you ignorant piece of sheet. Go play in the street with your ROTC butt buddies.

Red
04-20-2004, 10:10 PM
I would also caution your punking on Reserve and NG - SOF and SF units in the Army and Navy possess reserve and NG units. The AD would cripple with out the support of the NG and reserve. I personally know a reserve soldier that is retiring with 3 Wartime SSI's awarded, lord knows how many deployments (more than a dozen), almost approx 4000 points and has done **** with units you have never heard of, in his time in SOF and aviation - he also is/was an NCO. I will not even mention the prior service dudes in the reserve and NG and their former unit affiliations.
Tell shrek - an NG SF member and Senior NCO about what a bitch he is for being only a Nation Gaurdsman NCO - let him tell you the role he played fighting AQ and TB along the pakistani boarder, the kind of control & responsibility that goes with it - and the units and organizations with whom he worked. I have know NG troops to pull CP duties, in war zones, for the SECDEF, Com CENTCOM Gen Franks (former) and many other duties that I will not discuss.

Your arrogance and choice of comments drew the attention, not your opinion of Rumsfield. There is a reason cadets are in school NOT leading troops - There is a reason why intergallactic wing commanders have no legitimate rank in the military yet - there is a reason why your education does not end after ROTC. There is a reason why God gave you 2 ears and 1 mouth.

learn from it today or burn from it later. Either way the NCO's will be driving on.
That pretty sums it up,There is a huge difference between training and the real thing.You can train with blanks but when the live rounds start to fly around,are you sure you wont freeze cause you know that if one of those lead "leeches" catches you,you might die?you dont have to take believe that these guys are real soldiers but please dont come on this board and tell us ****e cause you are a cadet,we dont have to be nice to you so deal with it.And if you do become an officer,it is these same NCO's that will teach you so if i were you i would shut up and listen,I have seen lots of guys like you and for the most part the either end up dead or "lost" ;)

army cadet_ngcsu
04-20-2004, 10:17 PM
Joined: 01 May 2003
Total posts: 1235
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Find all posts by Beowulf
Location: "Scooterjacking" Joes Quadrophenia scooter
Website: http://www.realultimatepower.net/
Occupation: Web Ninja/Internet Thug
Interests: Rugby, flipping out and killing whole towns


You want to make fun of me...ya right. The website is even better!

Red
04-20-2004, 10:23 PM
Joined: 01 May 2003
Total posts: 1235
[0.54% of total / 3.48 posts per day]
Find all posts by Beowulf
Location: "Scooterjacking" Joes Quadrophenia scooter
Website: http://www.realultimatepower.net/
Occupation: Web Ninja/Internet Thug
Interests: Rugby, flipping out and killing whole towns


You want to make fun of me...ya right. The website is even better!
wow beowulf,that website is extreme.Where can i sign up to be a ninja?do i get to walk on walls? :P

Tane Angle
04-20-2004, 10:23 PM
Looks like I missed this parade, and I don't know if I have time to go through the whole thread, but I'll try. I'll also try to be brief (for once :roll: :oops: ).

NGers-good.
NCOs-good
SF-good.
NG SF NCOs-three times the good.

I have great respect for them. They are heroes, and lets not bad mouth them. I consider more than a few to be good friends, on and off this message board. Let's back off them, shall we?

PMCs-I work for one, but I think we're bandaids for broken legs. The military needs to be bigger, and we're not a viable permanent fix.

By the way, even in professional circles, we will make jokes among friends, but we don't bash one another openly. Rarely does that happen. There are a few folks out there in the community who I haven't always gotten along with, but I still give them their dignity and respect.

Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

Tane Angle
04-20-2004, 10:36 PM
One more thing, since maybe it wasn't clear enough-lay off b, ib, and everyone else, ok?

Ballistic
04-20-2004, 10:39 PM
Sorry guys, I didnt read the whole thread but what is "NG's" ??? Excuse my ignorance on this.... :oops:

Red
04-20-2004, 10:50 PM
Sorry guys, I didnt read the whole thread but what is "NG's" ??? Excuse my ignorance on this.... :oops:
National Guard

Flagg
04-20-2004, 11:16 PM
Testimonial:

Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads ALL the time and don't even think twice about it. These guys are so crazy and awesome that they flip out ALL the time. I heard that there was this ninja who was eating at a diner. And when some dude dropped a spoon the ninja killed the whole town. My friend Mark said that he saw a ninja totally uppercut some kid just because the kid opened a window.


Ninjas are sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants.

I don't know which quote I like better......so hard to decide...they're both so awesome I just want to flip out

Red
04-20-2004, 11:21 PM
Testimonial:

Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads ALL the time and don't even think twice about it. These guys are so crazy and awesome that they flip out ALL the time. I heard that there was this ninja who was eating at a diner. And when some dude dropped a spoon the ninja killed the whole town. My friend Mark said that he saw a ninja totally uppercut some kid just because the kid opened a window.


Ninjas are sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants.

I don't know which quote I like better......so hard to decide...they're both so awesome I just want to flip out
I feel you, i tought i read something like this on SOCNET once

Ballistic
04-20-2004, 11:47 PM
Sorry guys, I didnt read the whole thread but what is "NG's" ??? Excuse my ignorance on this.... :oops:
National Guard

Ah ofcourse, thanks. :)

Andyman
04-21-2004, 12:14 AM
How does one become a MERC anyways. Top be honest I'm really interested cause I love the military but a lot of its aspects like saluting the flag and doing push ups for the queen and saluting some 13 year old officer who knows less than his subordinate section commanders oh and marching i f*cking hate marching!!!

Ichhabe
04-21-2004, 12:20 AM
How does one become a MERC anyways. Top be honest I'm really interested cause I love the military but a lot of its aspects like saluting the flag and doing push ups for the queen and saluting some 13 year old officer who knows less than his subordinate section commanders oh and marching i f*cking hate marching!!!

Good luck rofl

Andyman
04-21-2004, 12:27 AM
gee thanks for the sarcasm but i dont recall that being a part of my question so therefore dont respond. I mean what part of that dont u understand do u know me have u any idea what my background is...?

Exactly so STFU :bash:

Beowulf
04-21-2004, 12:29 AM
Joined: 01 May 2003
Total posts: 1235
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Find all posts by Beowulf
Location: "Scooterjacking" Joes Quadrophenia scooter
Website: http://www.realultimatepower.net/
Occupation: Web Ninja/Internet Thug
Interests: Rugby, flipping out and killing whole towns


You want to make fun of me...ya right. The website is even better!

Perhaps you didn't do enough research....at any rate:

My profile is for da' humor, my impression of you is that you're serious.....killa' :cantbeli:

Beowulf
04-21-2004, 12:33 AM
How does one become a MERC anyways. Top be honest I'm really interested cause I love the military but a lot of its aspects like saluting the flag and doing push ups for the queen and saluting some 13 year old officer who knows less than his subordinate section commanders oh and marching i f*cking hate marching!!!

I assume by MERC you mean PMC...
If you don't know..then chances are you won't be able to get into that kind of work.

I won't even get into the value of all the things that you don't like to do...

Ichhabe
04-21-2004, 12:40 AM
gee thanks for the sarcasm but i dont recall that being a part of my question so therefore dont respond. I mean what part of that dont u understand do u know me have u any idea what my background is...?

Exactly so STFU :bash:

Well, sorry for the sarcasm. But being a PMC means being a team player. And when you stated all those things that you did not like, you gave your self away as not being a team player.

Apogee
04-21-2004, 12:45 AM
guess I missed out on this one. Damn. Sucks being on the road without a computer. Hope you're staying safe over there guys.

farmgirl
04-21-2004, 12:48 AM
guess I missed out on this one. Damn. Sucks being on the road without a computer. Hope you're staying safe over there guys.


Are you back with us now, K?

Flagg
04-21-2004, 12:55 AM
How does one become a MERC anyways.

If you want to learn about PMCs I suggest researching this site extensively, then write a well written PM to one of the more experienced forum members here to learn of anything not already posted that may be relevant.


Top be honest I'm really interested cause I love the military but a lot of its aspects like saluting the flag

I always disliked seemingly worthless requirements like that...they seemed so automated and robotic from the outside. But I found it to be a really moving experience once I joined.

There's really nothing quite like being a part of it.


and doing push ups for the queen and saluting some 13 year old officer who knows less than his subordinate section commanders oh and marching i f*cking hate marching!!!

The salute is based on an old tradition where armoured knights would raise their visors to display their identity and also a way of showing they do not possess a weapon in hand and don't represent a threat......there are other possible reasons for the salute, but that is what I learned.

push ups are fun, unless you can't do very many...then they become very unfun.....and then DS(Directing Staff) learns your name.....and you don't want the DS to learn your name.

marching is fun...especially with a heavy pack...but this also becomes unfun if you can't do it for long without whinging about it....ditto with DS learning your name

I was told to show respect to the ruling monarch, the Queen, since she provides us with our ammunition(and I'm a member of a Commonwealth Army)...and we like ammunition......I'm not going to argue with DS WHERE my 5.56, 40MM, and high explosives comes from...they might take it away from me...and that would be unfun also.

Michael RVR
04-21-2004, 02:32 AM
I also think that public reaction is less when merc's get killed as opposed to a countries soldiers. :|

xjym2002
04-21-2004, 02:51 AM
I also think that public reaction is less when merc's get killed as opposed to a countries soldiers. :|

I guess so. Is there any statistics on PMC casualties?
BTW, has it been confirmed who is the 4th of the Falluja 4?

Haiw
04-21-2004, 09:11 AM
How does one become a MERC anyways. Top be honest I'm really interested cause I love the military but a lot of its aspects like saluting the flag and doing push ups for the queen and saluting some 13 year old officer who knows less than his subordinate section commanders oh and marching i f*cking hate marching!!!

I assume by MERC you mean PMC...
If you don't know..then chances are you won't be able to get into that kind of work.

I won't even get into the value of all the things that you don't like to do...
Come on...he'd still make a great chairborne computer game warrior. :D

Beowulf
04-21-2004, 04:32 PM
I also think that public reaction is less when merc's get killed as opposed to a countries soldiers. :|

This could be accurate, but only b/c it may not be publicly released when a PMC takes casualties. Although I could be wrong about that.

Flagg
04-21-2004, 04:47 PM
Michael RVR wrote:
I also think that public reaction is less when merc's get killed as opposed to a countries soldiers.



This could be accurate, but only b/c it may not be publicly released when a PMC takes casualties. Although I could be wrong about that

I think Columbia is a good example of that.....quite a large presence of PMCs or similiar pers.....with a number of fatalities and kidnappings(approximately 3-4 were captured and are still being held I think).

Media coverage has been light......the average American certainly hasn't noticed...so I reckon you guys are right