...and Spain wants to accomodate these people?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Just when you though they couldn't get any more depraved-


MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- The body of a Spanish police officer who was killed in a raid on suspected Islamic terrorists was removed from its tomb Sunday night, dragged across a cemetery, doused with gasoline and burned, a Spanish police official told CNN.

Police do not know who committed the crime, and an investigation is under way.

Francisco Javier Torronteras, a special operations police officer, died April 3 during a police raid in a Madrid suburb where police believed suspects behind the March 11 Madrid train bombings were hiding.

The suspected terrorists set off a bomb during the raid and seven of them died, of whom four have been identified.

Police said the suspected ringleaders of the train bombings were among those killed.

Torronteras was not buried underground, but in an above-ground tomb at Madrid's Southern Cemetery.

Assailants Sunday night used a long pole to pry the tomb open, dragged the body about 200 meters, covered it with gasoline and set it on fire.

The cemetery's night watchman spotted the fire and alerted authorities, a police official said.

Spain's new interior minister Jose Antonio Alonso, at a previously scheduled event Monday, did not discuss what had happened to Torronteras' body.

But he called the slain officer an example of the bravery exhibited by all the Spanish officers who have died in the line of duty.

But he said: "I want to express my heartfelt recognition for the police special operations officer who died in the line of duty in the well-known operation on Saturday the 3rd in Leganes.

"In a way, he is the symbol of so many police officers and civil guards who have died earlier in the line of duty."

[StarvingStudent47]

Sick bastards.

[mack pl]

:cantbeli: Qrwa :cantbeli:What a sick perver could do that.

[Aeron]

We want to accomodate no one ¬¬ and less this ****ing bastards, that only deserve death.

Hope they end dead or in jail ASAP...

Really sad :(

:|

[usa320]

im disgusted. I wont even comment.

[Trident-za]

That is completely.... despicable. :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

...and Spain wants to accomodate these people?
Who are these people you assume Spain wants to accommodate Muslims, Iraqis maybe Nazis. I would not jump to any conclusions on this one there has been a spate of attacks on memorials and cemeteries across Europe the Swastikas painted were not done by Nazis but by Muslims in this case it could be an attempt to inflame public opinion. Maybe an act committed by persons unknown that may not agree with the new governments policies.

[-Max2-]

It's shameful. Really sickening...

[Uncle Chô]

Correction : his coffin was dragged from its tomb, doused with fuel and set on fire.

From what I've red, they did not removed the body itself :roll:

:| This is a disgusting act anyway. Who ever commited it.

[fdt]

Respect and condolences to the family... it's not the place and time to say anything more.

[Brozozo]

Uncivilized people shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to civilized countries...

[Uninen]

Of course possibility of American "black operation" didnt cross any of your minds?

(Americans trying to make Spaniards overtly hostile agaisnt "supposed terrorists" that "did this"... so that they would stay in Iraq and fight "terrorists" there.....)

When in fact the real crims might be from CIA or alike......

As things like that arent new or unheard for them...... doing something hoorrible and trying to make it seems like it was somebody else.....

So that they would gain something from the reactions of the victim.... (USA that is.......)

[Brozozo]

Of course possibility of American "black operation" didnt cross any of your minds?

(Americans trying to make Spaniards overtly hostile agaisnt "supposed terrorists" that "did this"... so that they would stay in Iraq and fight "terrorists" there.....)

When in fact the real crims might be from CIA or alike......

As things like that arent new or unheard for them...... doing something hoorrible and trying to make it seems like it was somebody else.....

So that they would gain something from the reactions of the victim.... (USA that is.......)

:roll:
Maybe the f*cking toothfairy did it.

[Brozozo]

Of course possibility of American "black operation" didnt cross any of your minds?

(Americans trying to make Spaniards overtly hostile agaisnt "supposed terrorists" that "did this"... so that they would stay in Iraq and fight "terrorists" there.....)

When in fact the real crims might be from CIA or alike......

As things like that arent new or unheard for them...... doing something hoorrible and trying to make it seems like it was somebody else.....

So that they would gain something from the reactions of the victim.... (USA that is.......)

:slap:

[Fox2]

Of course possibility of American "black operation" didnt cross any of your minds?

(Americans trying to make Spaniards overtly hostile agaisnt "supposed terrorists" that "did this"... so that they would stay in Iraq and fight "terrorists" there.....)

When in fact the real crims might be from CIA or alike......

As things like that arent new or unheard for them...... doing something hoorrible and trying to make it seems like it was somebody else.....

So that they would gain something from the reactions of the victim.... (USA that is.......)

Ever read "The Cather in the Rye," Uninen? :lol:

[Uninen]

It is no big secret that USA:s (and other nations too..) troops, police and intel services have used and still used terror tactics to fight "terrorists" and guerillas etc....

And also target like terrorists too, some 3rd party to gain something... IE allies, symphaty, understanding etc........

[foxtrot023]

...and Spain wants to accomodate these people?

Pray tell which people? Vandals, muslims, hoodlums, leftists, rightists, because the police haven`t found yet who did it. On the other hand, define what you mean by accomodating?

If you do not know the answers then Mr. Jackson shut up!! (Are you related to Michael Jackson? because that would explain several things)

The police do suspect some form of extremist muslim group might have done it (think what happened to those 4 american security contractors in Faluja) as a form of ¨revenge¨ for the operation in which 6/7 terrorists blew themselves up (if only ALL terrorists would go to the desert and blow themselves up....)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

...and Spain wants to accomodate these people?

Who are these people you assume Spain wants to accommodate Muslims, Iraqis maybe Nazis. I would not jump to any conclusions on this one there has been a spate of attacks on memorials and cemeteries across Europe the Swastikas painted were not done by Nazis but by Muslims in this case it could be an attempt to inflame public opinion. Maybe an act committed by persons unknown that may not agree with the new governments policies.

Well yeah, I suppose this could have been comitted by some unknown group trying to inflame opinion against the radical Islamists. But they've been doing a bang-up job themselves, don't you think?

I mean - they've got no problem intentionally obliterating innocent civvies to meet their goals...why should they consider this to be too much? Just another day at the office at Jihad Inc.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

...and Spain wants to accomodate these people?

Pray tell which people? Vandals, muslims, hoodlums, leftists, rightists, because the police haven`t found yet who did it. On the other hand, define what you mean by accomodating?

If you do not know the answers then Mr. Jackson shut up!! (Are you related to Michael Jackson? because that would explain several things)

The police do suspect some form of extremist muslim group might have done it (think what happened to those 4 american security contractors in Faluja) as a form of ¨revenge¨ for the operation in which 6/7 terrorists blew themselves up (if only ALL terrorists would go to the desert and blow themselves up....)

Uh yeah, I'm related to MJ. And I'm going to Wal-Mart 'cause all boys pants are 1/2 off.

The police suspect the Islamists? Oh, no, well, we musn't point fingers, we musn't anger the Islamists. Let's spend our time at airports frisking little old white ladies & making them take their shoes off. We all know how many buildings those grandmas have blown up.

Well, in an effort to be nauseatingly PC, I will for the moment pretend that it was not the Islamists who committed this act. It may well turn out that **** Cheney flew over in a converted SR-71, did the act, and flew back in time to opress the masses at home. I don’t know.

But the people who did it, no matter what group they're from are terrorists. That is who I'm speaking of. Terrorists as a group. Terror as a means of affecting political change.

It may be the Islamists this time, but next time another group will come to the fore. It doesn't matter the group, it is the method that's the point. It is unwise to reward their efforts.

By accommodate I mean-
Spain was ready to re-elect its' sitting government, who was a supporter of the war on terror & involved in rebuilding Iraq.

Islamists then murdered a whole pile of innocent folks, scared the crap out of the nation, and effected a political change via terror.

Dancing with the Devil is not a good idea. The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election. Why would they not continue to use violence & the threat of violence as a tool for getting what they want?

I don't mean to insult Spain, or the people of Spain. But for better or worse, they have bowed to the use of terror. They may well find it's more difficult to get out of this bed than in.

[Loco]

Pray tell which people? Vandals, muslims, hoodlums, leftists, rightists, because the police haven`t found yet who did it. On the other hand, define what you mean by accomodating?

Foxtrot023, you know like me who were the bastards that did it. Never in Spain since I have memory were done such things, even in the time of Civil War people was humilliated and killed, but they were respected after being dead. They are those bastards islamics integrists, they aren´t in Irak, they are living with us.
And before being me critized about blaming a whole religion, I don´t pretend it, I only critize those bastards, only that muslims seem to have a trend for humillliating and profaning deads of their enemies. That´s all.

[cut]

The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election.


:roll:

The terrorists had a stunning victory on 9/11 - they got the war between the west and islam they wanted.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election.


:roll:

The terrorists had a stunning victory on 9/11 - they got the war between the west and islam they wanted.

That's just dumb. They'd been at war with us for years...we just weren't fighting back.

[foxtrot023]

Pray tell which people? Vandals, muslims, hoodlums, leftists, rightists, because the police haven`t found yet who did it. On the other hand, define what you mean by accomodating?

Foxtrot023, you know like me who were the bastards that did it. Never in Spain since I have memory were done such things, even in the time of Civil War people was humilliated and killed, but they were respected after being dead. They are those bastards islamics integrists, they aren´t in Irak, they are living with us.
And before being me critized about blaming a whole religion, I don´t pretend it, I only critize those bastards, only that muslims seem to have a trend for humillliating and profaning deads of their enemies. That´s all.

I agree with you, but I was trying to make a point. We should seriously start changing inmigration laws in Europe or this could come back at us and bite us in the ass (as a spaniard you know what I mean).

[TALOS]

The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election.


:roll:

The terrorists had a stunning victory on 9/11 - they got the war between the west and islam they wanted.
And what would you suggest the US do Cut? Curious cuz its so much easier to sit on the side and say, "oh, thats wrong or this is wrong" but actually have a solution, heck, thats too tough. So please, you like to say the US was wrong but what should they have done? p-)

[nerdman]

XXXX

[nerdman]

Of course possibility of American "black operation" didnt cross any of your minds?

(Americans trying to make Spaniards overtly hostile agaisnt "supposed terrorists" that "did this"... so that they would stay in Iraq and fight "terrorists" there.....)

When in fact the real crims might be from CIA or alike......

As things like that arent new or unheard for them...... doing something hoorrible and trying to make it seems like it was somebody else.....

So that they would gain something from the reactions of the victim.... (USA that is.......)


On a similar note... where is the U.S. keeping its caputred UFOs?

[TALOS]

Of course possibility of American "black operation" didnt cross any of your minds?

(Americans trying to make Spaniards overtly hostile agaisnt "supposed terrorists" that "did this"... so that they would stay in Iraq and fight "terrorists" there.....)

When in fact the real crims might be from CIA or alike......

As things like that arent new or unheard for them...... doing something hoorrible and trying to make it seems like it was somebody else.....

So that they would gain something from the reactions of the victim.... (USA that is.......)


On a similar note... where is the U.S. keeping its caputred UFOs?

All captured UFO's were sent to northern alberta ;) we have a special containment area there with tunnels all the way to area 51 :D

[cut]

The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election.


:roll:

The terrorists had a stunning victory on 9/11 - they got the war between the west and islam they wanted.
And what would you suggest the US do Cut? Curious cuz its so much easier to sit on the side and say, "oh, thats wrong or this is wrong" but actually have a solution, heck, thats too tough. So please, you like to say the US was wrong but what should they have done? p-)

I think Iraq could have waited, I have said it before. I don't shy away from producing another solution.

I mean the war in Iraq was fine with me, but I think associating Saddam with 9/11 wasn't right though, and I don't think the threat was anywhere near immediate.

Weren't you suprised when there was such a strong shift away from Al qaeda and on to Saddam and Iraq. I think it was too soon after 9/11. I think Bush would have waited too if he was guaranteed a second term.

[FRO]

By accommodate I mean-
Spain was ready to re-elect its' sitting government, who was a supporter of the war on terror & involved in rebuilding Iraq.

Islamists then murdered a whole pile of innocent folks, scared the crap out of the nation, and effected a political change via terror.

Dancing with the Devil is not a good idea. The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election. Why would they not continue to use violence & the threat of violence as a tool for getting what they want?

I don't mean to insult Spain, or the people of Spain. But for better or worse, they have bowed to the use of terror. They may well find it's more difficult to get out of this bed than in.

Is there not the possibility that the incumbent government lost an election everyone had expected they would win because they outright lied to the electorate? From all accounts I have read, the government had plenty of information linking the attacks to Muslim extremists but still tried to blame the ETA--the Basque terrorist group. There have been accusations of pressure put on media to play the ETA card and ignore evidence--and the police spokespeople--who pointed to the Muslims. Whether these accusations are true or not, the Spanish populace heard them.

I honestly can't say for certain whether it was fear (of further terrorism) or outrage (that the government would use such a horrible crime to further their political goals) that caused the electoral shift, but considering Spain has dealt with terrorism before--though certainly not of this scope--I would be cautious before declaring the incumbent government lost due to the electorate's fear of further terrorism.

But that's just me. YMMV.

Take care all.

[TALOS]

The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election.


:roll:

The terrorists had a stunning victory on 9/11 - they got the war between the west and islam they wanted.
And what would you suggest the US do Cut? Curious cuz its so much easier to sit on the side and say, "oh, thats wrong or this is wrong" but actually have a solution, heck, thats too tough. So please, you like to say the US was wrong but what should they have done? p-)

I think Iraq could have waited, I have said it before. I don't shy away from producing another solution.

I mean the war in Iraq was fine with me, but I think associating Saddam with 9/11 wasn't right though, and I don't think the threat was anywhere near immediate.

Weren't you suprised when there was such a strong shift away from Al qaeda and on to Saddam and Iraq. I think it was too soon after 9/11. I think Bush would have waited too if he was guaranteed a second term.
Hm,mm... what sux is that in all reality I agree with you *damn* . The US shoulda waited, it woulda been a good idea IMHO to concentrate on A-stan first, but I have always agreed that Iraq had to be dealt with and Bush musta felt the time was right. I also dont feel the move from alqueda to Iraq was a surprise, Saddam supported terrorists and funded groups, this isnt a war on alqueda, its a war on terrorism and anyone who supports aids etc...etc...
Which truly worries me living in Canada knowing our history with terrros. :|

[foxtrot023]

By accommodate I mean-
Spain was ready to re-elect its' sitting government, who was a supporter of the war on terror & involved in rebuilding Iraq.

Islamists then murdered a whole pile of innocent folks, scared the crap out of the nation, and effected a political change via terror.

Dancing with the Devil is not a good idea. The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election. Why would they not continue to use violence & the threat of violence as a tool for getting what they want?

I don't mean to insult Spain, or the people of Spain. But for better or worse, they have bowed to the use of terror. They may well find it's more difficult to get out of this bed than in.



Is there not the possibility that the incumbent government lost an election everyone had expected they would win because they outright lied to the electorate? From all accounts I have read, the government had plenty of information linking the attacks to Muslim extremists but still tried to blame the ETA--the Basque terrorist group. There have been accusations of pressure put on media to play the ETA card and ignore evidence--and the police spokespeople--who pointed to the Muslims. Whether these accusations are true or not, the Spanish populace heard them.

I honestly can't say for certain whether it was fear (of further terrorism) or outrage (that the government would use such a horrible crime to further their political goals) that caused the electoral shift, but considering Spain has dealt with terrorism before--though certainly not of this scope--I would be cautious before declaring the incumbent government lost due to the electorate's fear of further terrorism.

But that's just me. YMMV.

Take care all.

Well put, and shows that you have read. Thank you

[FRO]

By accommodate I mean-
Spain was ready to re-elect its' sitting government, who was a supporter of the war on terror & involved in rebuilding Iraq.

Islamists then murdered a whole pile of innocent folks, scared the crap out of the nation, and effected a political change via terror.

Dancing with the Devil is not a good idea. The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election. Why would they not continue to use violence & the threat of violence as a tool for getting what they want?

I don't mean to insult Spain, or the people of Spain. But for better or worse, they have bowed to the use of terror. They may well find it's more difficult to get out of this bed than in.



Is there not the possibility that the incumbent government lost an election everyone had expected they would win because they outright lied to the electorate? From all accounts I have read, the government had plenty of information linking the attacks to Muslim extremists but still tried to blame the ETA--the Basque terrorist group. There have been accusations of pressure put on media to play the ETA card and ignore evidence--and the police spokespeople--who pointed to the Muslims. Whether these accusations are true or not, the Spanish populace heard them.

I honestly can't say for certain whether it was fear (of further terrorism) or outrage (that the government would use such a horrible crime to further their political goals) that caused the electoral shift, but considering Spain has dealt with terrorism before--though certainly not of this scope--I would be cautious before declaring the incumbent government lost due to the electorate's fear of further terrorism.

But that's just me. YMMV.

Take care all.

Well put, and shows that you have read. Thank you

No need for thanks, just calling it like I see it. Considering your location, you likely have more first hand, "on the ground" experience than most. Any thoughts?

Edit: More specifically, thoughts on the election.

Take care all.

[cut]

The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election.


:roll:

The terrorists had a stunning victory on 9/11 - they got the war between the west and islam they wanted.
And what would you suggest the US do Cut? Curious cuz its so much easier to sit on the side and say, "oh, thats wrong or this is wrong" but actually have a solution, heck, thats too tough. So please, you like to say the US was wrong but what should they have done? p-)

I think Iraq could have waited, I have said it before. I don't shy away from producing another solution.

I mean the war in Iraq was fine with me, but I think associating Saddam with 9/11 wasn't right though, and I don't think the threat was anywhere near immediate.

Weren't you suprised when there was such a strong shift away from Al qaeda and on to Saddam and Iraq. I think it was too soon after 9/11. I think Bush would have waited too if he was guaranteed a second term.
Hm,mm... what sux is that in all reality I agree with you *damn* . The US shoulda waited, it woulda been a good idea IMHO to concentrate on A-stan first, but I have always agreed that Iraq had to be dealt with and Bush musta felt the time was right. I also dont feel the move from alqueda to Iraq was a surprise, Saddam supported terrorists and funded groups, this isnt a war on alqueda, its a war on terrorism and anyone who supports aids etc...etc...
Which truly worries me living in Canada knowing our history with terrros. :|

That's very galant of you to admit that. I'm not completely convinced yet about the Saddam terrorist connection, even if there was clear evidence I think Saddam would be halfway down the list. I think it's important not to get to carried away with the "war on terrorism" label, the US can't pick and choose, the terrorist should be those who want to attack the US, or US assets, otherwise what's to stop the US going after ETA?

[Haiw]

Whoever did this, they deserve a serious ass-whooping. Time to go Fallujah on those guys.

[seruriermarshal]

Sad news , In fact , to terrorists , we fight . but some people hope terrorists win , because they're afraid danger , They hope more brave people die ...... f**k these sh*t

:fork:

[foxtrot023]

By accommodate I mean-
Spain was ready to re-elect its' sitting government, who was a supporter of the war on terror & involved in rebuilding Iraq.

Islamists then murdered a whole pile of innocent folks, scared the crap out of the nation, and effected a political change via terror.

Dancing with the Devil is not a good idea. The terrorists had a stunning victory in Spain - they decided an election. Why would they not continue to use violence & the threat of violence as a tool for getting what they want?

I don't mean to insult Spain, or the people of Spain. But for better or worse, they have bowed to the use of terror. They may well find it's more difficult to get out of this bed than in.



Is there not the possibility that the incumbent government lost an election everyone had expected they would win because they outright lied to the electorate? From all accounts I have read, the government had plenty of information linking the attacks to Muslim extremists but still tried to blame the ETA--the Basque terrorist group. There have been accusations of pressure put on media to play the ETA card and ignore evidence--and the police spokespeople--who pointed to the Muslims. Whether these accusations are true or not, the Spanish populace heard them.

I honestly can't say for certain whether it was fear (of further terrorism) or outrage (that the government would use such a horrible crime to further their political goals) that caused the electoral shift, but considering Spain has dealt with terrorism before--though certainly not of this scope--I would be cautious before declaring the incumbent government lost due to the electorate's fear of further terrorism.

But that's just me. YMMV.

Take care all.

Well put, and shows that you have read. Thank you

No need for thanks, just calling it like I see it. Considering your location, you likely have more first hand, "on the ground" experience than most. Any thoughts?

Edit: More specifically, thoughts on the election.

Take care all.

Specifically, that people were pissed at the government for saying that ETA did it (even sending a note to all embassies for them to point out that ETA did it). As to being scared of terrorists, I found more anger than fear, that is why 30% of the country population marched the next day after the bombings to protest (and mind you, they made for some very packed targets for terrorists to attack) against terrorists.

The PP appeared to have the lead, but many people who didn`t vote last time came out (10% more people voted than last election) and voted- against the PP for the way information was handled.

regards

[budanski]

This one with a little more detail...


Officer's body burnt in 'Islamic
Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/20/wmadr20.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/20/ixworld.html)
By Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid
(Filed: 20/04/2004)

The body of a police special forces officer who died when Islamic terrorists blew themselves up in Madrid was taken from its grave, mutilated and burnt yesterday.

The coffin and body of special agent Francisco Javier Torronteras were pulled from the tomb in Madrid Sur cemetery in Carabanchel and pushed 1,000 yards in a wheelbarrow before being doused with petrol and set alight.

The body was found with a pick driven into its head and a spade dug into its chest.

Although no motive was immediately apparent, police speculated that it could be the work of sympathisers of the Moroccan terrorist group that carried out the train bomb attacks in the Spanish capital on March 11, killing 192 people and injuring 1,900.

The interior ministry said the act of desecration could have been part of "an Islamic rite of revenge".

Agent Torronteras, 41, was killed leading a Special Operations Group team to dislodge terrorists suspected of the Madrid massacre last month.

The seven terrorists blew themselves up in a flat in the Madrid suburb of Leganes a fortnight ago as police moved in to arrest them, injuring 11 other policemen. At least three had been accused of the railway bombings.

Police said the attack on the grave was carried out by at least two people who prised the marble headstone off with a jemmy.

Security was strengthened at the cemetery, where the smell of burning still lingered yesterday afternoon.

Police have provisionally charged 18 people over the railway bombings.

Mutilating dead bodies must make them heroic. Must be a cultural thing. :roll:

[AFG]

HOLY ****ing ****... thats just really sad....

[Fintin]

what is wrong with this world....are people trying to make it a living hell?

[springwheat]

It is no big secret that USA:s (and other nations too..) troops, police and intel services have used and still used terror tactics to fight "terrorists" and guerillas etc....

And also target like terrorists too, some 3rd party to gain something... IE allies, symphaty, understanding etc........But there is such a thing as respect for the dead. Desecration of the dead is regarded as somethign animals, not people, do.

[seruriermarshal]

It is no big secret that USA:s (and other nations too..) troops, police and intel services have used and still used terror tactics to fight "terrorists" and guerillas etc....

And also target like terrorists too, some 3rd party to gain something... IE allies, symphaty, understanding etc........

Ok , No terrorists in the world , 911 is U.S. lie to you , because It's no anti - terrorists war . Now I know why this war hard , Because allies no attack those support terrorists's sh*t .
:fork:

[cut]

This one with a little more detail...


Officer's body burnt in 'Islamic
Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/20/wmadr20.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/20/ixworld.html)
By Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid
(Filed: 20/04/2004)

The body of a police special forces officer who died when Islamic terrorists blew themselves up in Madrid was taken from its grave, mutilated and burnt yesterday.

The coffin and body of special agent Francisco Javier Torronteras were pulled from the tomb in Madrid Sur cemetery in Carabanchel and pushed 1,000 yards in a wheelbarrow before being doused with petrol and set alight.

The body was found with a pick driven into its head and a spade dug into its chest.

Although no motive was immediately apparent, police speculated that it could be the work of sympathisers of the Moroccan terrorist group that carried out the train bomb attacks in the Spanish capital on March 11, killing 192 people and injuring 1,900.

The interior ministry said the act of desecration could have been part of "an Islamic rite of revenge".

Agent Torronteras, 41, was killed leading a Special Operations Group team to dislodge terrorists suspected of the Madrid massacre last month.

The seven terrorists blew themselves up in a flat in the Madrid suburb of Leganes a fortnight ago as police moved in to arrest them, injuring 11 other policemen. At least three had been accused of the railway bombings.

Police said the attack on the grave was carried out by at least two people who prised the marble headstone off with a jemmy.

Security was strengthened at the cemetery, where the smell of burning still lingered yesterday afternoon.

Police have provisionally charged 18 people over the railway bombings.

Mutilating dead bodies must make them heroic. Must be a cultural thing. :roll:

how can you even suggest it's something to do with their culture?

[gilgoul]

It is no big secret that USA:s (and other nations too..) troops, police and intel services have used and still used terror tactics to fight "terrorists" and guerillas etc....

And also target like terrorists too, some 3rd party to gain something... IEallies, symphaty, understanding etc........

no limit to the conspiracy theory a..holes.

Maybe it was the body itself that decided that cremation was better than above ground decomposition :slap:

[gilgoul]

This one with a little more detail...


Officer's body burnt in 'Islamic
Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/20/wmadr20.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/20/ixworld.html)
By Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid
(Filed: 20/04/2004)

The body of a police special forces officer who died when Islamic terrorists blew themselves up in Madrid was taken from its grave, mutilated and burnt yesterday.

The coffin and body of special agent Francisco Javier Torronteras were pulled from the tomb in Madrid Sur cemetery in Carabanchel and pushed 1,000 yards in a wheelbarrow before being doused with petrol and set alight.

The body was found with a pick driven into its head and a spade dug into its chest.

Although no motive was immediately apparent, police speculated that it could be the work of sympathisers of the Moroccan terrorist group that carried out the train bomb attacks in the Spanish capital on March 11, killing 192 people and injuring 1,900.

The interior ministry said the act of desecration could have been part of "an Islamic rite of revenge".

Agent Torronteras, 41, was killed leading a Special Operations Group team to dislodge terrorists suspected of the Madrid massacre last month.

The seven terrorists blew themselves up in a flat in the Madrid suburb of Leganes a fortnight ago as police moved in to arrest them, injuring 11 other policemen. At least three had been accused of the railway bombings.

Police said the attack on the grave was carried out by at least two people who prised the marble headstone off with a jemmy.

Security was strengthened at the cemetery, where the smell of burning still lingered yesterday afternoon.

Police have provisionally charged 18 people over the railway bombings.

Mutilating dead bodies must make them heroic. Must be a cultural thing. :roll:

how can you even suggest it's something to do with their culture?

Yes it has to do,
from the Tabors of ww2 and the tirailleurs who where cuting the ears of dead german bodies, through the algeria war, all israelis wars, afghanistan, Irak, chechnya and so on.
It might be a question of different taboos, but body desecration and post mortem mutilation are a comon and accepted practice in the muslim or arabo muslim world.
It dosen`t serve any cause to pretend that the problem is not cultural or doesn`t exist, it`s PC bull**** that doesn`t help real understanding and action against those kind of acts.
:roll:

[cut]

you are biased as anyone else would be in your position but that is not something you would find in all muslims, like with anyone else it is a case of the inidvidual, far more than it is a case of the culture.

[droopy]

Of course possibility of American "black operation" didnt cross any of your minds?

(Americans trying to make Spaniards overtly hostile agaisnt "supposed terrorists" that "did this"... so that they would stay in Iraq and fight "terrorists" there.....)

When in fact the real crims might be from CIA or alike......

As things like that arent new or unheard for them...... doing something hoorrible and trying to make it seems like it was somebody else.....

So that they would gain something from the reactions of the victim.... (USA that is.......)

Hmm Pearl HArbor, 11/9/2001, Chernobl,Roswell ;)

[TALOS]

you are biased as anyone else would be in your position but that is not something you would find in all muslims, like with anyone else it is a case of the inidvidual, far more than it is a case of the culture.
Hmmm .... barbarism in general for sure would be individual but there IS an element of socially acceptable actions that has to be considered. There are societies where in it is more acceptable to mutilate the bodies of the enemy, whereas there are other cultures where it may happen from individual to individual but ISNT acceptable to the population in whole. Just like in some societies the dead are revered and others they are just dead. So I think its fair to say if a connection can be shown where a particular culture has a consistent history of accepting these practices then we can assume that would affect and influence the population as a whole. IMHO

[cut]

you are biased as anyone else would be in your position but that is not something you would find in all muslims, like with anyone else it is a case of the inidvidual, far more than it is a case of the culture.
Hmmm .... barbarism in general for sure would be individual but there IS an element of socially acceptable actions that has to be considered. There are societies where in it is more acceptable to mutilate the bodies of the enemy, whereas there are other cultures where it may happen from individual to individual but ISNT acceptable to the population in whole. Just like in some societies the dead are revered and others they are just dead. So I think its fair to say if a connection can be shown where a particular culture has a consistent history of accepting these practices then we can assume that would affect and influence the population as a whole. IMHO

The vast majority of muslims would not accept these practices IMO.

[MaDuce]

Of course possibility of American "black operation" didnt cross any of your minds?

(Americans trying to make Spaniards overtly hostile agaisnt "supposed terrorists" that "did this"... so that they would stay in Iraq and fight "terrorists" there.....)

When in fact the real crims might be from CIA or alike......

As things like that arent new or unheard for them...... doing something hoorrible and trying to make it seems like it was somebody else.....

So that they would gain something from the reactions of the victim.... (USA that is.......)
Yes and they are hiding why Elvis is still alive. Talk about generalizations.. You automaticly blame the US for everything. You try to gain creditabilty but you won't sucede by putting out offesnive conspiracy theroies.

[gilgoul]

you are biased as anyone else would be in your position but that is not something you would find in all muslims, like with anyone else it is a case of the inidvidual, far more than it is a case of the culture.


first, what is my position?

I admist my prejudice and bias, might it positive or negative, toward some segments of population.
From that, if I recognise culturals traits, it doesn`t mean that I apply them to every person of any cultural or ethnic background.
But I don`t withdraw from the fact that we are often the product of our culture and environment.
I you grew up in the country side and were used to hunt, hunting will probably not be shocking to you, while for a lot of citadins it`s an abhorent practice. For us jews it`s ritual to practice circumcision while it`s an abomination for the swedes that are equaling it to excision.
For muslim warriors, it`s a comon practice to display, ridicule andmutilate the bodies of ennemies, and that s a fact that has be recorded since the crusades.
It doesn`t mean that europeans, or christians, or whatever fighting people are not doing the same kind of thing, they are, when boundaries of morale and comon values are broken.
Body desecration is present in all society and culture, and express the deep hatred and contempt for the enemy,and we have numerous example of atrocities and desecration committed during ww2 and the balkans war of the 1990`s) but in the western world it`s a reprehensible act, that draws condemnation and often punishement, while it`s a comon and apreciated practice in the muslim world.
For example, what is the most courteous act for a western soldier?
To dispose properly of your ennemy`s body, if possible in a orderly manner
What did the algerians, egyptians, Syrians, afghans, Irakis etc do with the bodies of fallen ennemies?
At best, dumped the bodies somewhere to rot (with a notable exeption of the egyptians in 1973 kippur war, who buried some of the fallen israeli soldiers of barlev line), usually, the body had been disfigured, mutilated, with part (usually genitals) cut off and placed in "funny" positions.
Those practices are simply permissible in the muslim world while they became taboo in the western world.
I don`t think that this is a sign of racism or deep bias to talk about this. :|

[cut]

you are biased as anyone else would be in your position but that is not something you would find in all muslims, like with anyone else it is a case of the inidvidual, far more than it is a case of the culture.


first, what is my position?

I admist my prejudice and bias, might it positive or negative, toward some segments of population.
From that, if I recognise culturals traits, it doesn`t mean that I apply them to every person of any cultural or ethnic background.
But I don`t withdraw from the fact that we are often the product of our culture and environment.
I you grew up in the country side and were used to hunt, hunting will probably not be shocking to you, while for a lot of citadins it`s an abhorent practice. For us jews it`s ritual to practice circumcision while it`s an abomination for the swedes that are equaling it to excision.
For muslim warriors, it`s a comon practice to display, ridicule andmutilate the bodies of ennemies, and that s a fact that has be recorded since the crusades.
It doesn`t mean that europeans, or christians, or whatever fighting people are not doing the same kind of thing, they are, when boundaries of morale and comon values are broken.
Body desecration is present in all society and culture, and express the deep hatred and contempt for the enemy,and we have numerous example of atrocities and desecration committed during ww2 and the balkans war of the 1990`s) but in the western world it`s a reprehensible act, that draws condemnation and often punishement, while it`s a comon and apreciated practice in the muslim world.
For example, what is the most courteous act for a western soldier?
To dispose properly of your ennemy`s body, if possible in a orderly manner
What did the algerians, egyptians, Syrians, afghans, Irakis etc do with the bodies of fallen ennemies?
At best, dumped the bodies somewhere to rot (with a notable exeption of the egyptians in 1973 kippur war, who buried some of the fallen israeli soldiers of barlev line), usually, the body had been disfigured, mutilated, with part (usually genitals) cut off and placed in "funny" positions.
Those practices are simply permissible in the muslim world while they became taboo in the western world.
I don`t think that this is a sign of racism or deep bias to talk about this. :|

I agree with what you are saying, but I think that it would make it more acceptable not necessarily acceptable to most muslims, this person had already been buried, I'm sure that muslims recognise removing a body from it's final resting place is not acceptable. Also this guy was not fighting them in a war, which muslims would take into account (of course some would see this as a war but in this case I'm sure it's a small minority).
And finally because something is acceptable to soldiers doesn't mean it will be acceptable to a general population. In all wars soldiers do things that would be considered wrong by regular folk. Take for example the footage of British soldiers kicking iraqi prisoners that would not move and generally treating them roughly, many Brits would consider that wrong but to soldiers it's fine. That kind of sentiment would be magnified by the severity of the incident. Therefore taking what arab soldiers did to foreign soldiers is not a reliable benchmark for arab society. Although it may be indicative.

That is why I think it risky amd even wrong to blame it on culture.

[gilgoul]

And finally because something is acceptable to soldiers doesn't mean it will be acceptable to a general population. In all wars soldiers do things that would be considered wrong by regular folk. That kind of sentiment would be magnified by the severity of the incident. Therefore taking what arab soldiers did to foreign soldiers is not a reliable benchmark for arab society. Although it may be indicative.

That is why I think it risky amd even wrong to blame it on culture.[/quote]

fisrt, thanks for not starting a flame war or dirty argument, I don`t think it`s your style either.
But permit me to disagree deeply and even be offended
in the following extract:
Take for example the footage of British soldiers kicking iraqi prisoners that would not move and generally treating them roughly, many Brits would consider that wrong but to soldiers it's fine.

As a former conscript soldier and present reservist, I have to disagree, it`s not fine to kick a prisoner, it`s not fine to humiliate him, to steal from him, to abuse him in a general manner.
Soldiers are the product of their society, the more violent and frustrated the society, the more violent and frustrated thesoliers.
But in any way, there is a huge difference between kicking a POW and desecrating a cadaver.
As for the "state of war", maybe a lot of muslims living in europe are not feeling that way and that is a great chance for europe, but the extremists are rottening the fruit, and muslim comunities ough to police themselves or endure the policisation of their comunities instead of crying against a supposed "racism", if Lapons where blowing up trains, they would be the rightfull target of intelligence and police operations.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Is there not the possibility that the incumbent government lost an election everyone had expected they would win because they outright lied to the electorate? From all accounts I have read, the government had plenty of information linking the attacks to Muslim extremists but still tried to blame the ETA--the Basque terrorist group. There have been accusations of pressure put on media to play the ETA card and ignore evidence--and the police spokespeople--who pointed to the Muslims. Whether these accusations are true or not, the Spanish populace heard them.

I honestly can't say for certain whether it was fear (of further terrorism) or outrage (that the government would use such a horrible crime to further their political goals) that caused the electoral shift, but considering Spain has dealt with terrorism before--though certainly not of this scope--I would be cautious before declaring the incumbent government lost due to the electorate's fear of further terrorism.

But that's just me. YMMV.

Take care all.

A good point - the Spanish gov't did point fingers at the ETA. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the government didn't come out and say that their investigation concluded the ETA did this. It was more along the lines of a couple of emotional off-the-cuff remarks made right after the attack, no? And since the ETA is a terrorist organization, and has killed people before, is that not a reasonable place to start?

For example, this story from CNN, dated 12 MAR-


MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Spanish government officials have pinned the blame on the Basque separatist group ETA for Thursday's blasts in Madrid that killed at least 192 people, but investigators were also exploring a lead with Arabic and Islamic links.

The brazen morning rush-hour terror strikes at city train stations also wounded at least 1,400.

The initial belief among officials was that ETA, designated a terror group by the United States and the European Union, was responsible.

But Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes said authorities were investigating a van found in the town of Alcala de Henares, outside Madrid, with at least seven detonators and an Arabic tape with Koranic teachings.

In the very first sentence, it's made clear that the ETA may not be to blame.

And this from BBC on 11 MAR-

Mr Aznar made it clear he believed the armed Basque separatist group Eta was behind the co-ordinated blasts.

But Interior Minister Angel Acebes later revealed that an Islamic tape had been found with detonators in a stolen van recovered near Madrid.

The van was found in the town of Alcala de Henares - where three of the four bombed trains originated. The other train passed through the town.

Mr Acebes said the tape - one of seven discovered in the van - contained verses of the Koran, in Arabic, relating to education.

"Because of this, I have just given instructions to the security forces not to rule out any line of investigation," he said.


Personally, from what I saw following the story as it evolved in the US media - suspicion of the ETA was very short lived, and was more emotionally driven than an official statement. Maybe it was different in Spain.

All the post attack TV interviews I saw featured Spaniards who were not commenting about how the government lied to them, but about how Spain should leave Iraq. That terror & Iraq's stability was not their fight. That things should go back to "the way they used to be". These were not people mad at their government for lying - they were mad because they knew Spain’s foreign policy had brought the terrorists wrath down on them.

I guess we can argue the details of the electorate's decision making process...but I don't think that there's any question that without the violence of 11 MAR, the sitting government would have been re-elected.

[cut]

And finally because something is acceptable to soldiers doesn't mean it will be acceptable to a general population. In all wars soldiers do things that would be considered wrong by regular folk. That kind of sentiment would be magnified by the severity of the incident. Therefore taking what arab soldiers did to foreign soldiers is not a reliable benchmark for arab society. Although it may be indicative.

That is why I think it risky amd even wrong to blame it on culture.

fisrt, thanks for not starting a flame war or dirty argument, I don`t think it`s your style either.
But permit me to disagree deeply and even be offended
in the following extract:
Take for example the footage of British soldiers kicking iraqi prisoners that would not move and generally treating them roughly, many Brits would consider that wrong but to soldiers it's fine.

As a former conscript soldier and present reservist, I have to disagree, it`s not fine to kick a prisoner, it`s not fine to humiliate him, to steal from him, to abuse him in a general manner.
Soldiers are the product of their society, the more violent and frustrated the society, the more violent and frustrated thesoliers.
But in any way, there is a huge difference between kicking a POW and desecrating a cadaver.
As for the "state of war", maybe a lot of muslims living in europe are not feeling that way and that is a great chance for europe, but the extremists are rottening the fruit, and muslim comunities ough to police themselves or endure the policisation of their comunities instead of crying against a supposed "racism", if Lapons where blowing up trains, they would be the rightfull target of intelligence and police operations.

I didn't mean kicking in a particularly bad way, like kicking someone imprisoned, the footage I'm talking about was from a raid. Nothing particularly bad. A bit like this photo:

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/3158828.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=322BF4A0B982F6BBA3E83A696B2679C5

There's nothing wrong in this incidence.(or at least I thought so correct me if I'm wrong) But you can see why people who aren't in the military behaviour might find this harsh.

Also I was not comparing the examples as equals but more to illustrate why the general publice would not agree with action by the military, in the Britsh soldiers case it was nothing major, obviously nowhere near as bad as what the arab soldiers you mentioned did, but appropriate, I thought, to explain the point I was trying to make.

You used the example of the view of muslims in Europe being not typical of the average muslim, no doubt more moderate, I think that is probably true but muslims in the vecinity of Israel are no doubt more extreme on the scale.

[DPGLAW]

So I guess that this is the security that removing their troops in Iraq brings them......See what giving in to terrorism brings you, absolutely nothing, now all the terrorist groups out there know that if they kill a bunch of innocent people the new leaders who have no balls will happily meet their demands and d whatever the terrorists ask for.....Now thats Progress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

[cut]

So I guess that this is the security that removing their troops in Iraq brings them......See what giving in to terrorism brings you, absolutely nothing, now all the terrorist groups out there know that if they kill a bunch of innocent people the new leaders who have no balls will happily meet their demands and d whatever the terrorists ask for.....Now thats Progress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

they didn't remove the troops from iraq because of terrorists..point finale

[2Sheds_Jackson]

So I guess that this is the security that removing their troops in Iraq brings them......See what giving in to terrorism brings you, absolutely nothing, now all the terrorist groups out there know that if they kill a bunch of innocent people the new leaders who have no balls will happily meet their demands and d whatever the terrorists ask for.....Now thats Progress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

they didn't remove the troops from iraq because of terrorists..point finale

Oooop well that's it then. Why did't you just say that in the first place?

Let me try that. The Brits faked Princess Di's death so she could go live on a secret estate in the Falklands...point finale. Sweeeeet.

[FRO]

A good point - the Spanish gov't did point fingers at the ETA. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the government didn't come out and say that their investigation concluded the ETA did this. It was more along the lines of a couple of emotional off-the-cuff remarks made right after the attack, no? And since the ETA is a terrorist organization, and has killed people before, is that not a reasonable place to start?

For example, this story from CNN, dated 12 MAR-


MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Spanish government officials have pinned the blame on the Basque separatist group ETA for Thursday's blasts in Madrid that killed at least 192 people, but investigators were also exploring a lead with Arabic and Islamic links.

The brazen morning rush-hour terror strikes at city train stations also wounded at least 1,400.

The initial belief among officials was that ETA, designated a terror group by the United States and the European Union, was responsible.

But Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes said authorities were investigating a van found in the town of Alcala de Henares, outside Madrid, with at least seven detonators and an Arabic tape with Koranic teachings.

In the very first sentence, it's made clear that the ETA may not be to blame.


I actually think that this quote illustrates the divide quite well. "Spanish government officials have pinned the blame on the Basque separatist group ETA" and then at the end of that sentence "but investigators were also exploring a lead with Arabic and Islamic links." The government certainly didn't indicate that the ETA was not to blame, rather the even-handed reporting did.



And this from BBC on 11 MAR-

Mr Aznar made it clear he believed the armed Basque separatist group Eta was behind the co-ordinated blasts.

But Interior Minister Angel Acebes later revealed that an Islamic tape had been found with detonators in a stolen van recovered near Madrid.

The van was found in the town of Alcala de Henares - where three of the four bombed trains originated. The other train passed through the town.

Mr Acebes said the tape - one of seven discovered in the van - contained verses of the Koran, in Arabic, relating to education.

"Because of this, I have just given instructions to the security forces not to rule out any line of investigation," he said.


Personally, from what I saw following the story as it evolved in the US media - suspicion of the ETA was very short lived, and was more emotionally driven than an official statement. Maybe it was different in Spain.


From what I had heard on the radio and read in the newspapers the next day, there was suspicion that the Spanish government had attempted to pressure news media into following the ETA line. Again, these were only rumours, but such rumours have a life of their own.

Based on what I have heard and read, I just don't feel that one can simply state "the Spanish were frightened by the terrorists and so voted their government out." The articles that I remember pointed at the loss due to electorate outrage, but that kind of spin is based on the agenda of the newspaper.



All the post attack TV interviews I saw featured Spaniards who were not commenting about how the government lied to them, but about how Spain should leave Iraq. That terror & Iraq's stability was not their fight. That things should go back to "the way they used to be". These were not people mad at their government for lying - they were mad because they knew Spain’s foreign policy had brought the terrorists wrath down on them.

Well, I can't speak to what I haven't seen. From the polls that I saw, the majority of Spaniards were against joining the coalition in Iraq to begin with. I did not read, not did I hear--I don't watch the TV, so I can't comment on TV news reports--any comments after the bombing of the sort you've mentioned. Again, this is likely spin based on the agenda of the news outlet. Ask enough people the same question and you are bound to get the answer you want to hear. That's not directed at the sources you use, I'm saying that as a general rule, which is why I honestly don't think we have enough information to make a call like what caused the downfall of the government. Maybe in ten years, with distance, it might be possible, but even decisions made in WWII are still argued about, so who knows?



I guess we can argue the details of the electorate's decision making process...but I don't think that there's any question that without the violence of 11 MAR, the sitting government would have been re-elected.

I mean, I heard a lot about how they were expected to win, but I hadn't been following the election previous to the terrorist attack, so--again--I'd be careful of commenting on that. However, if we accept that the incumbent was favoured to win the election, then I would agree that without the terrorist attack they likely would have won. I would also be interested in turning back the clock and seeing how it would have turned out if the government had been honest with the populace.

I think, if we look at reactions to terrorism in most European countries, especially since the 1980s, we would find that accomodation and placation are not usually the initial responses. Terrorism--in many parts of Europe--has been something that has been relatively common.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Take care all.

[Wilco]

It is no big secret that USA:s (and other nations too..) troops, police and intel services have used and still used terror tactics to fight "terrorists" and guerillas etc....

And also target like terrorists too, some 3rd party to gain something... IE allies, symphaty, understanding etc........


You really hate the US, stop trying to poke at it and tell everyone, then leave, it would be for the best of this forum.

Don't stay on one topic, it get's unhealthy after awhile.

[cut]

So I guess that this is the security that removing their troops in Iraq brings them......See what giving in to terrorism brings you, absolutely nothing, now all the terrorist groups out there know that if they kill a bunch of innocent people the new leaders who have no balls will happily meet their demands and d whatever the terrorists ask for.....Now thats Progress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

they didn't remove the troops from iraq because of terrorists..point finale

Oooop well that's it then. Why did't you just say that in the first place?

Let me try that. The Brits faked Princess Di's death so she could go live on a secret estate in the Falklands...point finale. Sweeeeet.

the americans faked JFKS death so that he could become a communist, wtf is point? for an old guy you really act childish

[TALOS]

So I guess that this is the security that removing their troops in Iraq brings them......See what giving in to terrorism brings you, absolutely nothing, now all the terrorist groups out there know that if they kill a bunch of innocent people the new leaders who have no balls will happily meet their demands and d whatever the terrorists ask for.....Now thats Progress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

they didn't remove the troops from iraq because of terrorists..point finale

Oooop well that's it then. Why did't you just say that in the first place?

Let me try that. The Brits faked Princess Di's death so she could go live on a secret estate in the Falklands...point finale. Sweeeeet.

the americans faked JFKS death so that he could become a communist, wtf is point? for an old guy you really act childish

I think he was referring to your point finale thing Cut. Kinna like " Ive said it so there" you just gotta know thats gonna get a response

[foxtrot023]

A good point - the Spanish gov't did point fingers at the ETA. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the government didn't come out and say that their investigation concluded the ETA did this. It was more along the lines of a couple of emotional off-the-cuff remarks made right after the attack, no? And since the ETA is a terrorist organization, and has killed people before, is that not a reasonable place to start?

For example, this story from CNN, dated 12 MAR-


MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Spanish government officials have pinned the blame on the Basque separatist group ETA for Thursday's blasts in Madrid that killed at least 192 people, but investigators were also exploring a lead with Arabic and Islamic links.

The brazen morning rush-hour terror strikes at city train stations also wounded at least 1,400.

The initial belief among officials was that ETA, designated a terror group by the United States and the European Union, was responsible.

But Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes said authorities were investigating a van found in the town of Alcala de Henares, outside Madrid, with at least seven detonators and an Arabic tape with Koranic teachings.

In the very first sentence, it's made clear that the ETA may not be to blame.


I actually think that this quote illustrates the divide quite well. "Spanish government officials have pinned the blame on the Basque separatist group ETA" and then at the end of that sentence "but investigators were also exploring a lead with Arabic and Islamic links." The government certainly didn't indicate that the ETA was not to blame, rather the even-handed reporting did.



And this from BBC on 11 MAR-

Mr Aznar made it clear he believed the armed Basque separatist group Eta was behind the co-ordinated blasts.

But Interior Minister Angel Acebes later revealed that an Islamic tape had been found with detonators in a stolen van recovered near Madrid.

The van was found in the town of Alcala de Henares - where three of the four bombed trains originated. The other train passed through the town.

Mr Acebes said the tape - one of seven discovered in the van - contained verses of the Koran, in Arabic, relating to education.

"Because of this, I have just given instructions to the security forces not to rule out any line of investigation," he said.


Personally, from what I saw following the story as it evolved in the US media - suspicion of the ETA was very short lived, and was more emotionally driven than an official statement. Maybe it was different in Spain.


From what I had heard on the radio and read in the newspapers the next day, there was suspicion that the Spanish government had attempted to pressure news media into following the ETA line. Again, these were only rumours, but such rumours have a life of their own.

Based on what I have heard and read, I just don't feel that one can simply state "the Spanish were frightened by the terrorists and so voted their government out." The articles that I remember pointed at the loss due to electorate outrage, but that kind of spin is based on the agenda of the newspaper.



All the post attack TV interviews I saw featured Spaniards who were not commenting about how the government lied to them, but about how Spain should leave Iraq. That terror & Iraq's stability was not their fight. That things should go back to "the way they used to be". These were not people mad at their government for lying - they were mad because they knew Spain’s foreign policy had brought the terrorists wrath down on them.

Well, I can't speak to what I haven't seen. From the polls that I saw, the majority of Spaniards were against joining the coalition in Iraq to begin with. I did not read, not did I hear--I don't watch the TV, so I can't comment on TV news reports--any comments after the bombing of the sort you've mentioned. Again, this is likely spin based on the agenda of the news outlet. Ask enough people the same question and you are bound to get the answer you want to hear. That's not directed at the sources you use, I'm saying that as a general rule, which is why I honestly don't think we have enough information to make a call like what caused the downfall of the government. Maybe in ten years, with distance, it might be possible, but even decisions made in WWII are still argued about, so who knows?



I guess we can argue the details of the electorate's decision making process...but I don't think that there's any question that without the violence of 11 MAR, the sitting government would have been re-elected.

I mean, I heard a lot about how they were expected to win, but I hadn't been following the election previous to the terrorist attack, so--again--I'd be careful of commenting on that. However, if we accept that the incumbent was favoured to win the election, then I would agree that without the terrorist attack they likely would have won. I would also be interested in turning back the clock and seeing how it would have turned out if the government had been honest with the populace.

I think, if we look at reactions to terrorism in most European countries, especially since the 1980s, we would find that accomodation and placation are not usually the initial responses. Terrorism--in many parts of Europe--has been something that has been relatively common.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Take care all.

Actually, the one thing that pissed voters in Spain was when the ruling party PP send through the Foreign Minister Palacios a note to all embassies in which the diplomatic personnel were to blame the attack on ETA, and this note became public in the newspapers 1 or 2 days before the elections (and at the time the tape with islamic verses was also found) so 2+2 didn`t add to 4, hence the voters turned the anger on the attempt to cover up against the ruling party. To use it in an american environment as an example, the voters in Spain felt this way:
Imagine that elections in the US were to happen in sept. 15, 2001 and 4 days ealier, the 9/11 attacks happened, and Mr. Bush (or any other president) says that Islamic terrorists did it and there was no way in knowing an attack was coming, but on Sept.13, a newspaper publishes the now famous memo, that warns of an incoming attack, how would the american public have reacted?

As Cut says, what would have happened if the PP had handled information in a different manner?

Regards