Is Europe no longer serious?

[Jobu]

With news like this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101653
and this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101634

does it signal a continuing trend in Europe since the end of the Cold War to cede global strategic influence to the United States? Does it push the USA to look even more closely into partnering with Japan and India (perhaps Australia?) in the future rather than focusing so much on NATO?

Thoughts?

[BlitzCod]

Mayby it is just that we dont want to wage wars? And co-operating with nations like USA will take us to war with nations we dont want to be in war with. We have more serious matters to think like global warming and shait! (Its +5 out side and grass is green!!! Normaly it would be -20 and 40cm of snow!) Seeking for more money and economical growth will kill us all. Or not all, but many.

And, europe dont have any enemies at its borders at the time so politicians thinks that we dont need any of those expensive things.. Possible enemies would come from south-east? And there is many countries to slow the enemy, and buy us time to rearm our armies and get ready for total war. And then it will be a big ass conflict..

Il bet that people in mp.net will smak my ass because of this but its just my point.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

somebody smak this guys ass

[AK74]

Well for starters they have the EURO to get on with their economy.

Who needs to be serious when you can slack around eating Sphagetti and drink frence wine all day? And drive intercontinental in a Benz?

If you want to get serious, join the US army and go to iraq, show the iraqis your serious. rofl

[Loki77]

If you want to get serious, join the US army and go to iraq, show the iraqis your serious. rofl

roflroflrofl








Are you from China or Singapore, Mr.AK74???

[Loki77]

If you want to get serious, join the US army and go to iraq, show the iraqis your serious. rofl

roflroflrofl



You are a comedian....

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Mayby it is just that we dont want to wage wars? And co-operating with nations like USA will take us to war with nations we dont want to be in war with. We have more serious matters to think like global warming and shait! (Its +5 out side and grass is green!!! Normaly it would be -20 and 40cm of snow!) Seeking for more money and economical growth will kill us all. Or not all, but many.

And, europe dont have any enemies at its borders at the time so politicians thinks that we dont need any of those expensive things.. Possible enemies would come from south-east? And there is many countries to slow the enemy, and buy us time to rearm our armies and get ready for total war. And then it will be a big ass conflict..


Don't worry, you'll be under Iran's nuclear umbrella soon enough. If history is any guide, Europe will wait until it's just about too late before deciding to act, and it will be a first-class sh*tstorm. :|

[BlitzCod]

Yeap, but I think that Iran's nuclear missiles wont reach to here up north. :-)

Last time europe manage to stop "them" to the gates of Vienna. Hope they wont get that far next time.

[phoilme]

Some one tell me difinitively how we are causing global warming? Also, if this myth caused by man is "true," why are the democrats considered the saviors of global climate control? While republicans and Bush world wide are the dealers of global warming? Please use your best logic to explain what exactly are "we" doing to heat up Earth.

Also, NATO is dead to America. Still do the exercises, but the most pressing fear towards America is the dissolving of Nationalism in Europe and Russia's faint democracy.

[AK74]

roflroflrofl



You are a comedian....

Your welcome.woot

[Macs.]

Two great examples you got there...

Dutch Navy now bigger than Royal Navy

And why do they need to cut costs ? Because they are bonded with two "No-one-knows-when-they-will-end"-wars in which they both ally the USA... And you bitch that the US might has to look for other allies ? :roll:

Germany's defence cut

First of all this is old news, and secondly it is no surprise that this is happened. We no longer have to prepare for a war with the "red hordes", and thats the reason we don't need thousands of tanks and artillery standing around. We need to adopt to todays "typical" deployments. Of course there is still too less spent on our military, but in the last years it was increasing (More deployments.) and the politicans seem to use the Army more and more often, and they will sooner or later find out that they can't just stretch it and stretch it. (Might need a few dead to start their thinking progress, but I guess it will happen. :roll: )

Basically we are getting rid of our great amounts of old stuff, to get a smaller, much better equiped army. (For example we will only have A6s Leopard (And some A5s in storage), which are top of the standard.)

Hence, there just has been a 9.100.000.000 Euro contract to update the german armys IT systems.


Don't worry, you'll be under Iran's nuclear umbrella soon enough. If history is any guide, Europe will wait until it's just about too late before deciding to act, and it will be a first-class sh*tstorm. :|

No way, OIF stabilized the region, and showed every other evil nation to not mess with WMDs ! p-)

[Bitogno]

As far as it seems everyone is reducing the size of their army due to the cost. In addition you can bash Europe but at least we don't have probleme to recruit soldiers.

[thesuperdude]

Some one tell me difinitively how we are causing global warming?

if you really want the answer read this: http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/044.htm#131

if you arent satisfied with that nothing will ever make you change your mind

[RMRcallum]

To may liberal goverments are running down europe.

[BlitzCod]

Please use your best logic to explain what exactly are "we" doing to heat up Earth.

We are sendin gases to air which prevents energy from sun to get out from atmosphere. And that way heats earth. Like you would be in a green house (that is why it is called the green house effect)

Try wikipedia or something else to verify my info. Im not an expert in this, I used to draw guns and bikes at my time in school. :-)

And now to the night life of green winter wonderland. ->

[AK74]

Dutch Navy now bigger than Royal Navy



Anyone not using Euro's aint EUROpe!rofl rofl rofl

[Mr. JOSHUA]

EUROPE: "Ehhhhh, the Americans will come save our asses anyway so why bother".

[Vandervahn]

With news like this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101653
and this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101634

does it signal a continuing trend in Europe since the end of the Cold War to cede global strategic influence to the United States? ...

No..........

[phoilme]

How do Europeans live? With all your governments subsidize as well as the high tax rates on just functioning, you must all live in one room apartments. It's creeping in America too. My state (Iowa, the ethanol state) just announced that with current budget projections, we will still be $200 million short of general highway maintanance. The state is already overrun by the honorable industry of gambling so I guess the sin tax will have to be increased - for many false justifications. I also smell a state-wide sales tax increase. In my county it's currently 7 percent.

[Cedan]

Europe no longer has the Soviet union to worry about, so they downsize their militarizes to the current threat level.. What good is there to use XXX billions on your military when you could be well off using considerably less?

[Cedan]

Anyone not using Euro's aint EUROpe!rofl rofl rofl

I don't get whats so funny??

[Macs.]

How do Europeans live? With all your governments subsidize as well as the high tax rates on just functioning, you must all live in one room apartments. It's creeping in America too. My state (Iowa, the ethanol state) just announced that with current budget projections, we will still be $200 million short of general highway maintanance. The state is already overrun by the honorable industry of gambling so I guess the sin tax will have to be increased - for many false justifications. I also smell a state-wide sales tax increase. In my county it's currently 7 percent.

Our economy is getting a boom.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101471

[Kitsune]

2Sheds_Jackson wrote:

If history is any guide, Europe will wait until it's just about too late before deciding to act, and it will be a first-class sh*tstorm.
Well, if history is any guide, the US will ally with the worst dictator it can find to solve the problem with Iran in a huge war and will create an international situation afterwards that is thoroughly messed up in the long term. :|




But seriously, I am not overly concerned about this "should the US turn to the Pacific instead?" talk. Europe is the most important and dependent ally the US has and the only potent one that is really similiar culturally. For America, it is simply indispensable and most Americans know this. And if they should indeed forget it and turn east...it's their loss. ;-)

As far as its value for the USA is concerned, the East cannot compete with the Europeans, not even Japan or Korea. America's foothold there is simply to weak, in the foreseeable future, China will dominate the East Asian mainland, leaving Japan pretty isolated and even the Land of the Rising Sun may start to orbit China one day. Talking about "isolated" - that is precisely what Oceania is as well. Diggers and Kiwis may be fine soldiers, but even risking to sound arrogant, they are comparatively small nations as far as their population and economies are concerned. And, as said, rather inconviently positioned as well. Hardly a sound replacement for Europe, as old as it may be.

Laugh it off if you will. But Europe will play a very important role in the future. And if I read about "Old Europe's soon demise" in the American press again and again - I don't buy it for a minute. (We will see who of us two us getting in trouble over the next decade - I am not so convinced that it's us). For the time being, Europe is one of the most peaceful and stable regions in the world. And that is quite something these days.

Sure, I am disappointed about this constant European soft approach to everything. I don't like it and I don't make a secret of it that I hope this will change in the future. Thing is only that for now we can afford it. Once that changes (and it probably will) we will change as well. And, as a matter of fact, Europe's combined potential is downright titanic - laugh all you want, it's true. It is just a matter of tapping it.

[Jobu]

2.3% growth is an economic boom?

[AK74]

I don't get whats so funny??

You must be Brit.rofl

[AK74]

2.3% growth is an economic boom?

Better than negative i guess...woot

[Cedan]

You must be Brit.rofl

No, I'm not a Brit

???

[bluffcove]

2Sheds_Jackson wrote:
Quote:
If history is any guide, Europe will wait until it's just about too late before deciding to act, and it will be a first-class sh*tstorm.

- Yes because Europe was late into the last two wars wasnt it.

[Macs.]

AK74 - How about stopping to post these One-Liners if you have nothing to add ?

[AK74]

2Sheds_Jackson wrote:
Quote:
If history is any guide, Europe will wait until it's just about too late before deciding to act, and it will be a first-class sh*tstorm.

- Yes because Europe was late into the last two wars wasnt it.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Demonstrated perfectly by Senor member 2sheds-san.

rofl rofl rofl

[Jobu]

2Sheds_Jackson wrote:
Quote:
If history is any guide, Europe will wait until it's just about too late before deciding to act, and it will be a first-class sh*tstorm.

- Yes because Europe was late into the last two wars wasnt it.

I don't follow your logic. If you mean WWI and WWII, no Europe was not late. How can they be late for their own party? They hosted it.

[foxtrot023]

Don't worry, you'll be under Iran's nuclear umbrella soon enough. If history is any guide, Europe will wait until it's just about too late before deciding to act, and it will be a first-class sh*tstorm. :|

If by history you refer to 1936-40 and by Europe you mean France and the UK, then yes, I agree with you.

[Yaro]

Europe is dead.....nothing more needs to be said.

[foxtrot023]

EUROPE: "Ehhhhh, the Americans will come save our asses anyway so why bother".

Your knowledge of history is mindboggling

[AK74]

Europe is dead.....nothing more needs to be said.

More like the other way around, a ZOMBIE...

"Go get yer guns sonny, the zombies are invading town!!!"rofl

[Thor]

With news like this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101653
and this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101634

does it signal a continuing trend in Europe since the end of the Cold War to cede global strategic influence to the United States? Does it push the USA to look even more closely into partnering with Japan and India (perhaps Australia?) in the future rather than focusing so much on NATO?

Thoughts?
It's the opposite way around actually.

European nations are adopting their forces so they can be used in more expeditionary type of roles. Politicians of course combine this with new defence-cuts.

But there should absolutely be some concern. I saw a comment earlier were someone said: "We have an army that can do what? Ship a 1000 soldiers to some third world country to kill poorly armed and trained 15 year olds?"

This is not entirely true but it's true that things are starting to get too minimalistic.

[Knutsen]

How do Europeans live? With all your governments subsidize as well as the high tax rates on just functioning, you must all live in one room apartments

This is my new apartment. I paid €500K for it. It's bigger than i expected.

http://www.multiempaques.com/imagenes/carton/Caja.jpg

[Bitogno]

If by history you refer to 1936-40 and by Europe you mean France and the UK, then yes, I agree with you.

Sorry pal but the two countries you are quoting have their own umbrella.

[AK74]

Sorry pal but the two countries you are quoting have their own umbrella.

I guess the radioactive particles are covered under the "umbrella"!rofl rofl

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Your knowledge of history is mindboggling


I know, its almost creepy.

[bluffcove]

Im fairly sure Britian were on the ball against Nazi Germany from Poland + 2.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

2Sheds_Jackson wrote:

Well, if history is any guide, the US will ally with the worst dictator it can find to solve the problem with Iran in a huge war and will create an international situation afterwards that is thoroughly messed up in the long term. :|

If that was true, we would have allied with Hitler, right? The odds were certainly on his side. It is not the US that's preaching hate and intolerance, while simultaneously defying the UN and most likely developing nuclear weapons - and it's not the US that will find itself under the threat of Nuclear blackmail via short range ICBMs - so why are we talking about the US in any European equation? Wouldn't it be nice if some problems resolved themselves, where the nations who are at risk are the ones who actually prepare ahead of time...avoiding, rather than inviting a crisis? That's all I'm sayin' here. And that's exactly what Japan etc. appear ready to do - which probably explains why the US is rather chummy with them at the moment.


I don't follow your logic. If you mean WWI and WWII, no Europe was not late. How can they be late for their own party? They hosted it.

Well yes - but the only reason that Germany got to host those two parties in the last century was because everybody else was busy talking about how they had no enemies, had no security problems, did not need to spend any money on defense. Nobody attacks a nation that is prepared for war - it's pretty simple.

Europe, for the past 60 years, has had the good fortune (IMHO) of being under US protection, and has not needed to fund or field militaries of sufficient size to do the job. I'm obviously not saying that they can't do it - I'm saying that they won't do it...unless they are forced to...which seems to happen cyclically as a result of them not being prepared. I mean, how many times do you whack your head on the overhang before you learn to duck?

AK74 - are you under some sort of contractual obligation to keep inserting non sequitur one liners, then laughing at your own joke? Like this;

Looks like somebody farted near Europe's Cheerio box! rofl

[phoilme]

The USA hopes that European nations DO build up might armies. The way we FAIL when we apply ours is getting disgusting. Look at the mess we created in Iraq and Afghanastan. Don't give us no army.

[TheBelgian]

Europe just believes in soft (economic) power over hard (military power). Which will do fine in 99% of the cases, but the other 1% is when it really counts. I hate that everytime we have peace for a few decades we think we're completely safe. How about a little foresight? Just because everything is good now, and no rational leader would think about invading Europe doesnt mean some populist loonie cant suddenly be put into office in Russia or China or any other country that actually does have a strong military.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

EUROPE: "Ehhhhh, the Americans will come save our asses anyway so why bother".We created you for that very purpose, it was all planned you know.

[The_Frans_Bauer_3000]

This is my new apartment. I paid €500K for it. It's bigger than i expected.

http://www.multiempaques.com/imagenes/carton/Caja.jpg
€ 500 ?

That's like 1,5 million American Dollars with the current exchange rates.

p-)

[phoilme]

Looks like you plan on starting a family.

[Weasel]

Mayby it is just that we dont want to wage wars? And co-operating with nations like USA will take us to war with nations we dont want to be in war with. We have more serious matters to think like global warming and shait! (Its +5 out side and grass is green!!! Normaly it would be -20 and 40cm of snow!) Seeking for more money and economical growth will kill us all. Or not all, but many.

And, europe dont have any enemies at its borders at the time so politicians thinks that we dont need any of those expensive things.. Possible enemies would come from south-east? And there is many countries to slow the enemy, and buy us time to rearm our armies and get ready for total war. And then it will be a big ass conflict..

Il bet that people in mp.net will smak my ass because of this but its just my point.

Couldn´t agree more.

[Thor]

Last year there was snow like crazy... But people have short memories.

And about conflicts, you must go really way back to find a time with so many potential conflicts on the rise as now.

[Weasel]

2.3% growth is an economic boom?

Biggest boom since 20 years. Too strong groth is unhealthy. Go back to business school!

[Weasel]

Last year there was snow like crazy... But people have short memories.

And about conflicts, you must go really way back to find a time with so many potential conflicts on the rise as now.

One winter with snow disproves the theory (or better: fact) of global warmin, of course. rofl

[Thor]

Not as long as the rest of the parameters are ok. 2.3 percent is a quite moderate growth in a booming world economy.

[Thor]

One winter with snow disproves the theory (or better: fact) of global warmin, of course. rofl
On the opposite my obvious point was that one winter with less snow doesn't prove a thing.


And climate changes all the time anyway. 3000 years ago we had a present day mediterranean climate up here.

[Loki77]

This is my new apartment. I paid €500K for it. It's bigger than i expected.

http://www.multiempaques.com/imagenes/carton/Caja.jpg

Knutsen,
Oslo is not so bad..

[Weasel]

On the opposite my obvious point was that one winter with less snow doesn't prove a thing.


And climate changes all the time anyway. 3000 years ago we had a present day mediterranean climate up here.

True, but if the climate changes in 100 years as much as in 3000 years before it´s everything else than usual.

Btw. no serious scientist denies anymore the existance of human made global warming.

[sir-chimp]

Wait I have a problem with what the title of this thread is implying, because its implying that at some point Europe was serious.

[Thor]

True, but if the climate changes in 100 years as much as in 3000 years before it´s everything else than usual.
Says who? And living patterns changed very rapidly due to swift changes in the climate after the last ice age, after the bronze age etc.

Furthermore I don't think neither one of us is qualified to discuss this.


Btw. no serious scientist denies anymore the existance of human made global warming.
Sure there is, but I'll admit that they are few.


Wait I have a problem with what the title of this thread is implying, because its implying that at some point Europe was serious.
You could start by opening a history book.

One of the first chapters you will come across is the 20th century during which tens of millions died on the battlefields.

[sir-chimp]

You could start by opening a history book.

One of the first chapters you will come across is the 20th century during which tens of millions died on the battlefields.

precisely .

[Count Lippe]

To may liberal goverments are running down europe. I'm afraid that no european government is conservative by american standards...rofl

[BritSig]

With news like this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101653
and this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101634

does it signal a continuing trend in Europe since the end of the Cold War to cede global strategic influence to the United States? Does it push the USA to look even more closely into partnering with Japan and India (perhaps Australia?) in the future rather than focusing so much on NATO?

Thoughts?

Ok mate, for starters the reason (if you bother your arse to read the 1st article) that UK is parking up some of its boats is so that we can continue to supply our frontline troops with what they need to carry out business.
That business just happens to be alongside the US. Lets not forget the massive support the UK goverment threw behind the US. We deployed 50,000 troops for the invasion of Iraq in 2003, thats around 50% of our army whilst still honouring our commitments else where in the world (N.Ireland, Bosnia, Falklands, Afghan etc). We continue to fight alongside the US in these theatres of operations even though it means that most of our army are pulling tours more often (I personnaly have done 2 in the last 2 years, Iraq and afghan).

I can only stick up for a few nations in Europe (The Danes are involved in Iraq and the Afghan, the dutch who have been in Iraq and are in afghan and the estonians again in both Iraq and afghan) the rest have not supported the US as much as these. That is their luxury, that is democracy.
However, if you want my opinion on NATO then we should change the way the money is passed out to which nations. France and Germany seem to leech off of the subsidies without fully commiting their troops to afghan. The germans i spoke to out there would love to head down south and i think that if their government allowed it then it would give other nations the chance to relax their soldiers for a while. As for the french (excluding the mighty legion)........
NATO has only a few nations who fully commit, i would like to see these nations break away and form some kind of Coalition in the future.

P.S UK is geographically in europe but we are not European!!!!IMO

[Jaeger07]

Shouldn't this tread be named "why is Europe doing the only logical thing and question USA, after USA tricked Europe into fighting in Iraq based on false intel".

You Americans need to wake up. "The civilized world" has more important things to do than spreading democracy to the desserts of outback-stan.

Oh and about Iran: Is Iran a threat to the US? nope. Is Iran a threat to Europe? nope. Is it a threat to Israel? well yes, but who cares, Israel hasnt complied with international law in a decade, so in many peoples eyes that puts them right next to Iran.


My 2c (or 0.02 euro)

[Snoshi]

Shouldn't this tread be named "why is Europe doing the only logical thing and question USA, after USA tricked Europe into fighting in Iraq based on false intel".

You Americans need to wake up. "The civilized world" has more important things to do than spreading democracy to the desserts of outback-stan.

Oh and about Iran: Is Iran a threat to the US? nope. Is Iran a threat to Europe? nope. Is it a threat to Israel? well yes, but who cares, Israel hasnt complied with international law in a decade, so in many peoples eyes that puts them right next to Iran.


My 2c (or 0.02 euro)

Forced Europe to fight?Some EU countries sent their troops because they wanted to, not because they were "forced".

Iran is not threat to US? What if USA wants to build a military base in UAE? Iran says look we have nukes so i think you should stop... Iran is a very real threat to Europe... And by threat i dont mean that they will use nukes...i mean that they will use nukes to blackmail everyone and everything..
What "international" law havent we complied with? And who are "many" people that put us next to Iran?

[Jaeger07]

Forced Europe to fight?Some EU countries sent their troops because they wanted to, not because they were "forced".

Iran is not threat to US? What if USA wants to build a military base in UAE? Iran says look we have nukes so i think you should stop... Iran is a very real threat to Europe... And by threat i dont mean that they will use nukes...i mean that they will use nukes to blackmail everyone and everything..
What "international" law havent we complied with? And who are "many" people that put us next to Iran?

Well lets just say that im no Israel-hater. I can see you guys are in a lot of trouble, and much of it isnt your fault.

Still, Israel has waged a lot of dirty military campaigns thru the years. And with dirty i mean bombing inner city civilian centres, demoloshing the houses of suicide bombers' familiys etc etc. The UN has many times condemed these things. And its also this stuff that makes the EU not support Israel. Anyways my post was about the US, not Israel.

And when i say the US "forced" EU countries to fight in Iraq, thats very much how it happened. After the Iraq war started in 03 the US-ambassador in norway told media that if Norway did not send troops to Iraq, the US would not help if norway was in trouble, and that it would severely damage the US-Nor relationship. Now if Iraq was an article 5 NATO situation, this would have been a fair statement. But as we all know Iraq had never attacked the US, nor posed a threat in those days. The war was not an article 5 situation, it was a result of US-paranoia and false intel. Norway sent troops to Iraq anyway, but pulled them out after about a year.

To be sceptic towards the US after that is absolutely logical. Thats all I'm saying.

[Ivan le Fou]

Iran may be a threat for EU WHEN they have nukes.


The don't have nukes yet (instead of NK for example, which IS a REAL threat).


What if USA wants to build a military base in UAE? Iran says look we have nukes so i think you should stop...
And how would you react if a country you are not friend with wanted to build a military base next to your coutry?
Remember Cuba's Crisis? When Soviet Union decided to instal Nukes there?


edit: to "complete" Jaeger07's post, I remember (but I may be wrong) the US proposed financial (or whatever) support to the countries who will help them out in Irak. And they also offered financial support to african (or whatever) countries if they allied the US.
In that case you are not forcing someone, but it is some kind of "prostitution" (you do me favor, I give you something in return).

[Snoshi]

^^ Cmon.. NK cant feed its citizens.. They are not a threat to anyone... While Iran is ruled by ultra-religious nuts that called for destrcution of an other country...

[Knutsen]

Knutsen,
Oslo is not so bad..

I know, it's cheaper than Madrid when buying a flat/house.

[juliuspret]

P.S UK is geographically in europe but we are not European!!!!IMO

The words of a true Brit!

As long as your country is part of the European Union, then you are European!
Take a look at your passport!!!

[Ivan le Fou]

^^ Cmon.. NK cant feed its citizens.. They are not a threat to anyone... While Iran is ruled by ultra-religious nuts that called for destrcution of an other country...

Maybe but they have nukes, and balistic missiles.

Remember last sumer?

[MkH]

Some one tell me difinitively how we are causing global warming? Also, if this myth caused by man is "true," why are the democrats considered the saviors of global climate control? While republicans and Bush world wide are the dealers of global warming? Please use your best logic to explain what exactly are "we" doing to heat up Earth.

Also, NATO is dead to America. Still do the exercises, but the most pressing fear towards America is the dissolving of Nationalism in Europe and Russia's faint democracy.

Why do I even have to explain this? I suppose the Kyoto pact and the American lifestyle (excessively big trucks, disposable everything) don't say anything to you? Would you want me to find some statistics?

[Snoshi]

Maybe but they have nukes, and balistic missiles.

Remember last sumer?

Yeah.. But they are not a threat to anyone... They know that if they will do anything then the hole country will starve to death... Kim is a moron, but he is surly not suicidal.

[Ivan le Fou]

Yeah.. But they are not a threat to anyone... They know that if they will do anything then the hole country will starve to death... Kim is a moron, but he is surly not suicidal.

Do you think Kim cares about his people??

Aren't they dying from starvation yet??



And for Iran it would be the same. If they launch any nukes on Europe or even Israel, the response from other countries will be terrible.

[Amateur]

Yeah.. But they are not a threat to anyone... They know that if they will do anything then the hole country will starve to death... Kim is a moron, but he is surly not suicidal.

I think the South Koreans and the Japanese would disagree with you on that. And the mullahs in Iran (supposing they ever reach nuclear capability) not only know they will starve to death if they try anything, they also know Israel has a good anti-ballistic defence and a second strike nuclear capability that would turn Iran into a radioactive desert. The South Koreans and Japanese have neither.

[BoabDilDK]

my god what a crowd that gathers here during the weekend.

Most of you guys should stick to just posting cool pictures and leave foreign policy alone. Opinions are cheap.

[phoilme]

Is that your opinion?

[Ivan le Fou]

*I would just call it a post...*

[Cedan]

Wait I have a problem with what the title of this thread is implying, because its implying that at some point Europe was serious.

europe has always been serious, thats why we kicked out all those religious nutjobs

[Vandervahn]

As long as your country is part of the European Union, then you are European!
Take a look at your passport!!!

Being in the EU doesnt make you European, and vice versa. Still, there is no doubt that Britain is as European as any other nation in Europe, and anyone repeating this mantra of "Britain ain´t Europe" because it makes them feel special simply ignores the thousands of years of common culture and interaction within this continent. Britain is geographically, culturally and democratically as much a part of European continent as Manhattan Island is part of New York City.

[johanness]

Still, there is no doubt that Britain is as European as any other nation in Europe, and anyone repeating this mantra of "Britain ain´t Europe" because it makes them feel special simply ignores the thousands of years of common culture and interaction within this continent. Britain is geographically, culturally and democratically as much a part of European continent as Manhattan Island is part of New York City.

mhm...last time I was in Londonistan it looked pretty not European...
more like Pakistan,India,Africa and some Caribian.
The Europeans there can speak pretty good polish and romanien

[Sato]

The European countries seem to prefer the "soft" approach to handle international and regional conflicts.

But I am concerned that once diplomatic and economic pressure fails, the Europeans will be caught with their pants down.

[bluffcove]

Being in the EU doesnt make you European, and vice versa. Still, there is no doubt that Britain is as European as any other nation in Europe, and anyone repeating this mantra of "Britain ain´t Europe" because it makes them feel special simply ignores the thousands of years of common culture and interaction within this continent. Britain is geographically, culturally and democratically as much a part of European continent as Manhattan Island is part of New York City.

We drive on the other side of the road.
We have a monarchy.
Napoleon nor Hitler have paid us a visit.
We maintain a commonwealth.
Britain aint Europe.

[Hydro]

We drive on the other side of the road.
We have a monarchy.
Napoleon nor Hitler have paid us a visit.
We maintain a commonwealth.
Britain aint Europe.



Britain is like Ted Kennedy to Europes Jack Kennedy.

[hauptman]

It's the european way of war.
The basic idea is: Since we have the EU there is a transfer of expertise between the most capable states to the less proficient. However, this can only be done if the basic foreign policies converge. So, as time goes one it will become more natural to step up co-operation on military operations.

[Thor]

We drive on the other side of the road.
We have a monarchy.
Napoleon nor Hitler have paid us a visit.
We maintain a commonwealth.
Britain aint Europe.
Britain for sure is on the central-european axis and has always been a key member state in the EC/EU.

It's Scandinavia that isn't Europe. We have our own little thing going on and doesn't have the european identity you southerners have. We didn't even join the European Community until we reluctantly did in 1995 (had there been a referendum today that membership would have been revoked). And Norway and Iceland are still refusing to become members of your union.

[bluffcove]

I agree the scandinavian model is vastly superior to the British postiion at hte moent but no Briton would agree to Scandinavian levels of Socialism.

I think when you look closely enough, "Europe" is in fact france and germany, and the low countries, with various hangers on desperately trying to impress on the world stage.

Britain was conned into joining the European common market, and ever since the role of the EU has grown until it dictates what colour we have to paint our road signs!

[juliuspret]

We drive on the other side of the road.

As do we in Ireland!



We have a monarchy.

As do a lot of European countries....Netherlands,Spain,Sweden,Denmark...etc



Napoleon nor Hitler have paid us a visit.

As they did with Portugal?



We maintain a commonwealth.

Scandanivia has something similar.
And what use is the commonwealth please other than as a reminder of the long lost glory days of the "Empire".



Britain aint Europe.

Of course it isnt Europe....Europe is Europe and Britain(shouldnt you say UK!) is Britain....but Britain is most certainly European!

[ren0312]

I think the point here is that while the EU certanily does not need to spend as much as the US on its military, it clearly needs to spend more than what it is currently spending, I really think that 2 per cent for defense will not bankrupt any country in the EU, or am I wrong? As for the UK and France's response before World War 2, I do think that they were too late in their response, if they had opposed Germany's invasion of the Rhineland in 1936 with armed force, then Germany's military will have been defeated descisively, even with the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938, the German High Command was worried may happen if the Czechs resisted militarily, hence they wanted to occupy the Sudetenland first before occupying the rest of the Czech Republic. As for the question of Iran, Europe needs to decide whether the cost in lives in case of a military action to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons is worth the elimination of the threat of a nuclear Iran with Europe well within Iran's missiles range. A cardinal rule of diplomacy is to speak softly while carrying a big stick, of course that presupposes the presence of a big stick, i.e. an effective military deterrent in order to make diplomacy sucessfull, the worry appears to be that Europe wants to speak softly but refuses to acquire or make the sacrifices necessary for the acquisition of that big stick.

[Jaeger07]

I think the point here is that while the EU certanily does not need to spend as much as the US on its military, it clearly needs to spend more than what it is currently spending, I really think that 2 per cent for defense will not bankrupt any country in the EU, or am I wrong? As for the UK and France's response before World War 2, I do think that they were too late in their response, if they had opposed Germany's invasion of the Rhineland in 1936 with armed force, then Germany's military will have been defeated descisively, even with the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938, the German High Command was worried may happen if the Czechs resisted militarily, hence they wanted to occupy the Sudetenland first before occupying the rest of the Czech Republic. As for the question of Iran, Europe needs to decide whether the cost in lives in case of a military action to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons is worth the elimination of the threat of a nuclear Iran with Europe well within Iran's missiles range. A cardinal rule of diplomacy is to speak softly while carrying a big stick, of course that presupposes the presence of a big stick, i.e. an effective military deterrent in order to make diplomacy sucessfull, the worry appears to be that Europe wants to speak softly but refuses to acquire or make the sacrifices necessary for the acquisition of that big stick.

But the 3rd reich was a part of Europe, they followed your agressive foreign policy. Did that prove to be a good idea? Uhm eh... nope.

The united NATO/EU reacted promtly and decisively to the conflict on the Balkans in the late 1990s. The EU will react with force if threatened in the future. What bushians dont see is that Iran, Iraq and the likes dont really pose any threat to the EU these days, and so whats the point of supporting the US in war-flops like Iraq? Sorry USA we've become selfish and rich, and you have become paranoid...

Oh and scandinavia (vikingland) is not a part of Europe (hey i dont even live in the EU) *smell of sarcasm all around p-)

[Lancero]

Napoleon nor Hitler have paid us a visit.



As they did with Portugal?



Napoleon did came to Portugal - and has defeated by portuguese and english armys

[bluffcove]

Does any one other country share those features? NO.

Finally might I add, Summer 1940 - That is Britain!

[Sua Sponte]

[quote=Jaeger07;2209349]The war was not an article 5 situation, it was a result of US-paranoia and false intel.quote]

A paranoid is someone who knows a little bit about what's actually going on.

[Kant]

We drive on the other side of the road.
We have a monarchy.
Napoleon nor Hitler have paid us a visit.
We maintain a commonwealth.
Britain aint Europe.

Australia has all those.
I'm glad we're in Asia. Much warmer, and the food is better.

[Hydro]

Australia has all those.
I'm glad were in Asia. Much warmer, and the food is better.



Australians are just Brits who have been exposed to sunshine for too long.

[bluffcove]

So we have more in commmon with you than the warry sausage eaters and surrendering cheese eaters.

Vis a Vis ipso facto, Aussies and Brits are more closely related than Brits and wierd Europeans.

[Kant]

Australians are just Brits who have been exposed to sunshine for too long.

Rubbish!
We shower more frequently.
That's why Europe is glad that Britain's an island.
The stench!

[Kant]

So we have more in commmon with you than the warry sausage eaters and surrendering cheese eaters.

Vis a Vis ipso facto, Aussies and Brits are more closely related than Brits and wierd Europeans.
There are around 2 million Brits living here.
One of the few places besides Britain were you can drive on the left hand side of the road,hitting immigrants because you're to busy eating your fish and chips and sculling your beer(lager) at the same time, and not get in trouble.

[Hydro]

There are around 2 million Brits living here.
One of the few places besides Britain were you can drive on the left hand side of the road,hitting immigrants because you're to busy eating your fish and chips and sculling your beer(lager) at the same time, and not get in trouble.



I love Australia.

[bluffcove]

Oh those halcyon days!

[Kant]

I love Australia.
I do to.
It's also illegal to shoot Scotsmen over here.
Good point for you Jocks.

[Hydro]

I do to.
It's also illegal to shoot Scotsmen over here.
Good point for you Jocks.



Tickets are booked, I'm staying at yours.

[Kant]

Tickets are booked, I'm staying at yours.
I've got a pretty comfy fold out couch, and a not so comfortable bed.
Which would you prefer?

[Hydro]

Either or, not fussed.


There's usually a large Aussie transient population here, mainly at a ratio of one per pub. Coming back to the motherland for a pilgrimage of bar work and pissups.

[Kant]

Either or, not fussed.


There's usually a large Aussie transient population here, mainly at a ratio of one per pub. Coming back to the motherland for a pilgrimage of bar work and pissups.
I had a good time back in the motherland.Plan to go back soon.
When I got on the piss and caused a scene,I was a Kiwi.
Can't go around putting to shame the excellent reputation Australians have for behaving them......no,I can't even type that it's such bull****.

[perdurabo]

If EU succedes it will be much bigger player than Russia/India/China/USA just compare numbers on economics, building up big military isn't problem if you have realy big economics and EU is the biggest economics (just look at USA prior to WWII how in just few years they build up their military).
But EU must start playing togheter, cut farmer funds, spend more on education, and infrastructure, start combining militaries and foregin politics (in next 20-30 years not now, its too early for that, but planing and prepering should start)

[DaGreatRV]

You might better ask. Is China serious? They have 2.5 times the number of people the EU has like 1.3+mln troops, China 2.2mln troops. EU spends like $220Bln on defence, China $50Bln.
The EU(it's members) has a lot(way) more troops participating in foreign peace missions than China.
But do we concider China 'not serious'? No.

Europe is serious.

[Kitsune]

bluffcove wrote:
We drive on the other side of the road.
We have a monarchy.
Napoleon nor Hitler have paid us a visit.
We maintain a commonwealth.
Britain aint Europe.


Funny this attitude. Britain is geographically part of Europe. Politically it is part of the EU (otherwise get the hell out of the parliament in Brussels). Its most important trading partner is Germany, followed by France. Its people look very similiar to Germans (the Anglo Saxons actually came from here) and speak a related language. If one walks the English streets, they look very similiar to those in Northern Germany, Dutchland, or Scandinavia (if one ignores the cameras of course ;-)). People there didn't even recognize me as a foreigner at first. And you say you are not Europeans? What are you then? Africans? In that case, apply for membership in the African Union please.

And as far as "Napoleon and Hitler not paying a visit" is concerned - in Hitler's case that was not because of your own power. Thank Uncle Sam for it. Besides, the man didn't want a war with you, he sort of liked you British. Well, he was a lunatic after all.

And you "mantain a Commonwealth"? The British world-wide influence is really awesome to behold...just try to give one order to any member of this Commonwealth of yours and watch the middle finger going up. Today, England couldn't even change one streetsign in Hong Kong anymore.

One thing is correct, though. You really drive on the wrong side of the road. In more than one sense.
Have a nice day.

[bluffcove]

Britain doesnt want to be part of Europe, it never did it was conned by maastricht and various other treaties into selling off its sovereignty to an unelected board of committees in Europes favourite battlefield.

France and Germany despite previously having empires have no longer the influence over their former colonies that Britain does. the Commonwealth could be a poerful tradng force, except that the EU has made it impossible for the links to remiain competitive, look at NZ lamb and Butter, just one of the articles that was mutually beneficial prior to Brussles getting involved.

The Summer of 1940 is a cliche to many extents but it does show the Britain has a different ethos to its neighbours.

[Lancero]

Going back to the topic of this thread. Sometimes people just forget how - and were - it was all "putt to paper" (concerning invading Iraq). And they keep saying Europe doens't commit...

http://inet.sitepac.pt/20030316Azores01.jpg

[Hydro]

Today, England couldn't even change one streetsign in Hong Kong anymore


That would be tricky, considering HK is Chinese.


We just enjoy having many fingers in many pies. A bad thing IMO, because while we have the capability to maintain so many pies, our politicians won't effectively sustain the...pie...gluttony...



I'm hungry.

[Ivan le Fou]

That would be tricky, considering HK is Chinese.


We just enjoy having many fingers in many pies. A bad thing IMO, because while we have the capability to maintain so many pies, our politicians won't effectively sustain the...pie...gluttony...



I'm hungry.


Some kind of pie-laws...

[Kitsune]

@bluffcove:

I am sorry. The only thing that was different was that Britain is an island. Otherwise it would have not fared better than France or anyone else. Your different ethos is just a myth. A rather arrogant one, but a myth nonetheless.

And Britain doesn't want to be part of Europe and has been conned into membership? Is that so? Well, in that case, you should perhaps pay more attention to what you sign. But what keeps you in? One decision of the British parliament is all that is needed to leave. Just do it.

And as far as any influence about the colonies is concerned, you may be very much misinformed here. Germany is a bad comparision: we never had much of an Empire, those colonies were more of a pet project - Germany never earned money or power through them, quite the opposite, summed up they costed money. (They were basically those parts of Africa the established Imperial powers weren't interested out of good reason - plus Tsingtao in China and Samoa. All in all a very modest affair.) As far as the French are concerned: they have more influence in their African possessions than any other European power these days, including Britain. For whatever that's worth.

I admit, I find this British attitude "we are so much better than the other Europeans" obnoxious. On what is it based anyway? (If we Germans thought that way, now that would be understandable. ;-))
These days, the British Navy is smaller than the French one and the English can't even build a proper car or rifle without foreign help. There is really nothing that makes you different, special or superior. Certainly you aren't able to stand on your own feet, militarily or economic wise.

But, have it your way. By all means leave the EU if you want to and let yourself be ruled by Washington if you prefer that to Brussels (but you may find out that in contrast to the EU parliament neither the US Senate nor the Congress accpepts British members - you have been warned).

Just be upfront about it. If you want to stay a part of the EU you are actually welcome - but show some allegiance and be constructive for once. Otherwise, be honest and get the hell out. But stop this whining about you being oppressed. You are not. You became a member and stayed a member of the club entirely out of your own volition. There is really no one you have to blame but yourself.

[Hydro]

Going back to the topic of this thread. Sometimes people just forget how - and were - it was all "putt to paper" (concerning invading Iraq). And they keep saying Europe doens't commit...

http://inet.sitepac.pt/20030316Azores01.jpg


Some people can't understand that while bound by certain agreements to (allegedly) make life easier between member states, Europe is not a single entity. Iraq saw a good few European countries go in. It's way too easy to see Europe as France and Germany.

[Hydro]

@bluffcove:

I am sorry. The only thing that was different was that Britain is an island. Otherwise it would have not fared better than France or anyone else. Your different ethos is just a myth. A rather arrogant one, but a myth nonetheless.

And Britain doesn't want to be part of Europe and has been conned into membership? Is that so? Well, in that case, you should perhaps pay more attention to what you sign. But what keeps you in? One decision of the British parliament is all that is needed to leave. Just do it.

And as far as any influence about the colonies is concerned, you may be very much misinformed here. Germany is a bad comparision: we never had much of an Empire, those colonies were more of a pet project - Germany never earned money or power through them, quite the opposite, summed up they costed money. (They were basically those parts of Africa the established Imperial powers weren't interested out of good reason - plus Tsingtao in China and Samoa. All in all a very modest affair.) As far as the French are concerned: they have more influence in their African possessions than any other European power these days, including Britain. For whatever that's worth.

I admit, I find this British attitude "we are so much better than the other Europeans" obnoxious. On what is it based anyway? (If we Germans thought that way, now that would be understandable. ;-))
These days, the British Navy is smaller than the French one and the English can't even build a proper car or rifle without foreign help. There is really nothing that makes you different, special or superior. Certainly you aren't able to stand on your own feet, militarily or economic wise.

But, have it your way. By all means leave the EU if you want to and let yourself be ruled by Washington if you prefer that to Brussels (but you may find out that in contrast to the EU parliament neither the US Senate nor the Congress accpepts British members - you have been warned).

Just be upfront about it. If you want to stay a part of the EU you are actually welcome - but show some allegiance and be constructive for once. Otherwise, be honest and get the hell out. But stop this whining about you being oppressed. You are not. You became a member and stayed a member of the club entirely out of your own volition. There is really no one you have to blame but yourself.



Mmmm...yeah. We do have a different ethos. You are correct on most points, but the ethos is different. You can't just go from a total mindset change from 300 years of practically ruling the seas and a very large chunk of the world to what we are today in 50 years. We are changing, and evolving. Think of it as akin to puberty, we've just had radical change to this country (50 years is but a blink of an eye to history really), we're stuck between the US, who we owe a great deal to, and to Europe, who it seems yesterday was a smoking hole which bankrupted us.

It's a dangerous mindset to get into, "Oooh, which is it to be, Washington, or Brussels?". If I had my way, it would be neither. It would be London, with ties either way.

[Kitsune]

Hydro wrote:
We do have a different ethos. You are correct on most points, but the ethos is different. You can't just go from a total mindset change from 300 years of practically ruling the seas and a very large chunk of the world to what we are today in 50 years.

Every European power has its own ethos. Of course the British have, too. And your 300 years of ruling the seas (a bit of an overstatement that one) has of course influenced yours. Wether it has done so in a good sense can be doubted, however. In any case, you have to bake smaller buns these days. And you had more than 50 years to get used to that sad fact - the Suez affair in 1956 should have shown to the most Imperial minded Eglishman how and by whom things are played in this world. And by whom not anymore.




Hydro wrote:
It's a dangerous mindset to get into, "Oooh, which is it to be, Washington, or Brussels?". If I had my way, it would be neither. It would be London, with ties either way.
Well, try it with London for a time and see how far that gets you. It is possible that you will find out that, in the end, this mindset proves more dangerous than the other two. But it is your call.

[Hydro]

Hydro wrote:


Hydro wrote:
Well, try it with London for a time and see how far that gets you. It is possible that you will find out that, in the end, this mindset proves more dangerous than the other two. But it is your call.

It's more a mindset of feeling you are stuck between a rock and a hard place when you're not (Brussels v. Washington was just an example).


Unfortunately in our position, if we side with the EU, the Americans get unhappy and put on the Eurowussie hat. If we side with the USA, the EU go all Bush's lap dog on us. If we go our own way, we get slapped down with "You no longer have an Empire, get over yourselves, little dog!". But ultimately, it's advantageous for us to be doing so much. We just have to streamline how it happens.

[Knutsen]

Just be upfront about it. If you want to stay a part of the EU you are actually welcome - but show some allegiance and be constructive for once. Otherwise, be honest and get the hell out. But stop this whining about you being oppressed. You are not. You became a member and stayed a member of the club entirely out of your own volition. There is really no one you have to blame but yourself.

I remember watching a BBC show once about european stereotypes or something like that. The thing is that the guy was talking about how Spain is a modern country with nice and efficient transport networks but at the same time he was whining about how EVERYTHING (which is false) was paid with EU funds. The funny thing was when he was about to pay in one of the highways and said: "I'm british, i have already paid".
I don't have to say that the British EU rebate was never mentioned in that documentary...

[hauptman]

Mmmm...yeah. We do have a different ethos. You are correct on most points, but the ethos is different. You can't just go from a total mindset change from 300 years of practically ruling the seas and a very large chunk of the world to what we are today in 50 years. We are changing, and evolving. Think of it as akin to puberty, we've just had radical change to this country (50 years is but a blink of an eye to history really), we're stuck between the US, who we owe a great deal to, and to Europe, who it seems yesterday was a smoking hole which bankrupted us.

It's a dangerous mindset to get into, "Oooh, which is it to be, Washington, or Brussels?". If I had my way, it would be neither. It would be London, with ties either way.

Long ago Austria had been an empire where the sun would never go down (geographically seen) ...

Do you really think the UK would be competetive all alone with their Commonwealth?
For example, the most important export partners of Australia are Japan, Korea, China, Taiwan ...

And: Monarchy and Aristocraty are just obsolete and useless.
From this perspective the United Kingdom is pretty underdeveloped.

[bluffcove]

So is Austria still in close political contact with its former colonies?
Or the ottoman empire theirs?
or Germany theirs?
or France theirs?

We are different.

and having a European telling me to have a group hug and a bonding session to tell us we are all the same, with crap emental cheese and naff bread wont make me feel any closer to you.

[hauptman]

So is Austria still in close political contact with its former colonies?
Or the ottoman empire theirs?
or Germany theirs?
or France theirs?

We are different.

and having a European telling me to have a group hug and a bonding session to tell us we are all the same, with crap emental cheese and naff bread wont make me feel any closer to you.

And the only connection between the nations in the Commenwealth is the allegiance to the British Crown. The Commonwealth practically only exists on the paper. England should focus more on the EU.
And basically seen, if British aren't european, then why have they influenced and took part in european history?

[bluffcove]

because we live near by and we are co signatories of the common market, in itself not a regreetable franchise except for the malignant fashion in which the role of the Economic Union(EU), has expanded to the quasi-European community(EC).

[Kitsune]

@bluffcove



So is Austria still in close political contact with its former colonies?
Or the ottoman empire theirs?
or Germany theirs?
or France theirs?I fail to see in which way the British have so much more "political contact" to their former colonies than anybody else. Are there any plans to send troops to India in case of a war with Pakistan or China then? As I see it, Canada and Australia are nowadays de facto part of an American Commonwealth. South Africa is now Black African, before that it was Boerish (and therefore more akin to the Dutch than to the English which were actually hated by many Boers) and India may have some sympathies but certainly would not consider to return to the days when it was a British colony.
The Commonwealth is neither a political nor a military nor an economic entity of any potence (Britain isn't the largest trading partner of either Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or India for example). And it has no power whatsoever.

As far as the comparision to other nations are concerned: we Germans, as said, are different indeed, we never had an Empire. Only a few so called "protectorates" between 1885 and 1914, that is it. Nonetheless there are still some contacts to Namibia (where still some German settlers live) and Tanzania (despite the fact that all German settlers there have been disinherited and expelled by the British after 1919). The Austrians have contacts to the regions they once dominated, the French, Portuguese, Belgians, etc, have contacts to their former colonies in Africa and especially in the French case they are every bit as ****ounced as the British ones. As far as the contacts of the Turks to their former Ottoman subjects are concerned, I don't know much about it nor do I care.




We are different.

Of course are the various Europeans nations different from each other. And every one has its special history or gifts. The British had their glorious Empire that spanned the world. But so had the Spanish or the Portuguese. The French history is almost as glorious as the British one (with the "almost" possibly getting me into trouble with some French here). The Greeks have their ancient history, the Italians their great cuisine, the Swedish a lot of beautiful blond women, the Fins have Nokia. And we Germans are the master race with the highest average IQ in Europe (which is also something of a curse - believe me, to constantly have to lower oneself to the standards of others is really trying). There is even a nation somewhere in eastern Europe whose special gift it is to be so unassuming that one tends always to forget them...what was its name...?
Anyway, as you can see, we all are special in some way. I just don't see how the British are more different than anybody else.




and having a European telling me to have a group hug and a bonding session to tell us we are all the same, with crap emental cheese and naff bread wont make me feel any closer to you.
Come to think of it, in the case that you should be a representative case for a British citizen, I do not feel very close to you either. Nor do I feel many sympathies. And if your opinion is really the opinion of the overwhelming majority of Englishmen then it should not be difficult to get your parliament to leave the EU - one decision is all it needs. Perhaps you could even convince the Royal Geographic Society to rule that Britain isn't part of Europe anymore and to turn you into the eighth continent or something. Continue your role as American pilotfish or become an island version of Switzerland, whatever.

[bluffcove]

Diddums, did we upset the German because we didnt want to be in his gang.
Its not a problem being part of a common market, its jsut a problem having thirty llama farmers in the pyrennees decide that beef farming isnt fair and impose sanctions.

Or Spanish fishermen turn up cutting our nets in our territorial but no longer national waters.

or French wankers block a port whenever they want to cause a scene.

or impose rules on livestock handling that they never follow but police ruthlessly at their channel entry points.

[Kitsune]

Diddums, did we upset the German because we didnt want to be in his gang.

No. Upsetting is that you voluntarily joined "the gang" and voluntarily stay in but whine all the time that you would be oppressed. If you don't like it get out and shut up.

[Sharp]

the Swedish a lot of beautiful blond women

lol
100% agree
finally a thing that is *universal* in the european minds ahah :p

european exception? p-)

[Knutsen]

Diddums, did we upset the German because we didnt want to be in his gang.
Its not a problem being part of a common market, its jsut a problem having thirty llama farmers in the pyrennees decide that beef farming isnt fair and impose sanctions.

Or Spanish fishermen turn up cutting our nets in our territorial but no longer national waters.

or French wankers block a port whenever they want to cause a scene.

or impose rules on livestock handling that they never follow but police ruthlessly at their channel entry points.

Or thousands of british retired people go to spain to get free health care with that small and oppresive card which says "European health card".

[Pvt.Anderson]

Diddums, did we upset the German because we didnt want to be in his gang.
Its not a problem being part of a common market, its jsut a problem having thirty llama farmers in the pyrennees decide that beef farming isnt fair and impose sanctions.

Or Spanish fishermen turn up cutting our nets in our territorial but no longer national waters.

or French wankers block a port whenever they want to cause a scene.

or impose rules on livestock handling that they never follow but police ruthlessly at their channel entry points.

Have you been taking part in the "Hooligans 2006 - The Untold Story" which was posted in the Offtopic section some weeks ago ?
The facts you're providing that Britain is not European are more than ridiculous .

-First of all watch your language : Did you even know that modern day was heavily influenced by french while your country was occupied by them after 1066 ? ( William the Conqueror ) and has many many words in common with english spanish italian and german ?

-Have you ever heard of the term "Anglo" and "Saxon" , Germanic tribes (some of them still here living unforunately :D )

-Architecture : Ever seen architecture in your country ? All influenced by the european mainland


See i could go on and on but those 3 facts already overwhelm yours , so why going on .

[Thor]

the Swedish a lot of beautiful blond women
Good to see that you have such a vaste historical knowledge! :D

Just remember that we were always the ones invading, occupying, and annexing you. Not the other way around.


(And that average IQ argument is pretty lame. Let me know if you can't figure out why yourself.)

[Amerikosskiy_xyu]

With news like this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101653
and this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101634

does it signal a continuing trend in Europe since the end of the Cold War to cede global strategic influence to the United States? Does it push the USA to look even more closely into partnering with Japan and India (perhaps Australia?) in the future rather than focusing so much on NATO?

Thoughts?

Europe is staying off the warpath just like smart European countries have done so already.

[Count Lippe]

No. Upsetting is that you voluntarily joined "the gang" and voluntarily stay in but whine all the time that you would be oppressed. If you don't like it get out and shut up.
x2

harden the **** up, or stfu!p-)

[Bitogno]

Or thousands of british retired people go to spain to get free health care with that small and oppresive card which says "European health card".

Or the queen of England receiving a lot of money ( in England she is the one that receive the most ) from the Common Agricultural Politic.

[bluffcove]

We didnt make money out of the CAP!

and the civil list gives the Queen her money for the most past, not taxes.

[Bitogno]

We didnt make money out of the CAP!

and the civil list gives the Queen her money for the most past, not taxes.

Maybe but as owner of a lot of farmland she is the one that receive the most from the CAP.

[bluffcove]

The CAP doesnt make the Uk any money.

Just this week Tw@tty Bliar has announced that the role of the UK farming industry is not food production but countryside maintenance. We've been undercut by Europe to the point we are not competitive.

The CAP did nothing for the UK.

(the Queen doesnt run farms, she is a landowner any (hypothetical) cash would have gone to the tenant farmer not the landlord)

[toki]

Have you been taking part in the "Hooligans 2006 - The Untold Story" which was posted in the Offtopic section some weeks ago ?
The facts you're providing that Britain is not European are more than ridiculous .

-First of all watch your language : Did you even know that modern day was heavily influenced by french while your country was occupied by them after 1066 ? ( William the Conqueror ) and has many many words in common with english spanish italian and german ?

-Have you ever heard of the term "Anglo" and "Saxon" , Germanic tribes (some of them still here living unforunately :D )

-Architecture : Ever seen architecture in your country ? All influenced by the european mainland


See i could go on and on but those 3 facts already overwhelm yours , so why going on .
And that your Queen is basicly german. Hannover anyone? P.S.: It's in lower Saxony. The brits can argue as long as they want. They may "feel" so different. But in so many ways (language, culture, ethnics) they're european. Oh well, geographically as well. And if you join the EU please tell me how you're not european on a political level. I understand that this isolationism is part of the pride. It's an Island after all, but the differences are not bigger then between any other european nations. Maybe they're even lesser.

Btw our chavs look just slightly different.

[bluffcove]

Im not saying we dont have a common heritage just that the British people |(ive spoken to all of them and checked) have no wish to follow practices put into law by MEP's. Primarily because our involvement with 'Europe@ as a homogenous political body is based on the belief tht we were entering a common market, not an overblown county council.

to quote "that bloke" In Europe, not led by Europe.

[ando]

Right from a personal point of view.I and many others couldnt give a monkeys.It seems the us and its retarded leader are in the proccess of global bulls*** just so that he can do what his daddy did not do.I mean he doesnt want to agree with world discussions on the matter and reduce emissions .Id prefer to make sure that my children and there children and so on can live in a peacefull society and with gloabal stabilisation.War is always the last resort and only and measure that comes last.Us Eurofags as you like to say prefer to talk rather than your gun ho pull the trigger attitude.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

And we Germans are the master race with the highest average IQ in Europe (which is also something of a curse - believe me, to constantly have to lower oneself to the standards of others is really trying).

I'm assuming this is the famed German sense of humour in operation:)

[bluffcove]

Us Eurofags as you like to say, prefer to talk rather than your [/b]gun ho[/b] pull the trigger attitude.

Im not taking the piss, that is a brilliant typo!

[ando]

Its fooking right thaugh aint it !!!

Imagine if we all got fat and grew beards and drive round in turds.We'd be taxed by blair and his chronies.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Have you been taking part in the "Hooligans 2006 - The Untold Story" which was posted in the Offtopic section some weeks ago ?
The facts you're providing that Britain is not European are more than ridiculous .

-First of all watch your language : Did you even know that modern day was heavily influenced by french while your country was occupied by them after 1066 ? ( William the Conqueror ) and has many many words in common with english spanish italian and german ?

-Have you ever heard of the term "Anglo" and "Saxon" , Germanic tribes (some of them still here living unforunately :D )

-Architecture : Ever seen architecture in your country ? All influenced by the european mainland


See i could go on and on but those 3 facts already overwhelm yours , so why going on .

The logical extension of your argument is that the USA or Australia or NZ or Canada should also be part of Europe - which is patently ridiculous.

Linguistic origins in the Dark Ages post the fall of the Roman Empire etc are irrelevant.

The point is that UK legal and political systems, traditions, structures have evolved in different ways from the European ways of doing things. For example, European Code Napoleon type laws are completely alien to the UK.

The EU is rapidly becoming 'passe' as its ideology is completely rooted in the old 1950s/60 Western European obsession with avoiding future Franco German wars. It is completely irrelevant to the realities of the modern political world.

Ad hoc alliances in line with ruthless pursuit of our national interest and free trade should be the way forward for the UK not chaining ourselves to a rotting European corpse. The truth is that the EU is far more insular as a political body than our little offshore island which has been a global trading nation for the best part of 500 years.

[Pvt.Anderson]

I can understand your thoughts leaving the EU i mean come on this is a **** pit of bureaucracy , the death to europe if you want ( economically ) .

And now comes the big BUT :
Some of you are declining your european heritage which is ridiculous , here you go


In Europe, not led by Europe.

[bluffcove]

I was quoting someone else. when I was at pains to understand my viewpoint in simple soundbites. Quote it in context next time.

[Bitogno]

(the Queen doesnt run farms, she is a landowner any (hypothetical) cash would have gone to the tenant farmer not the landlord)
Sorry but in 2005 the Royal family received 1,000,000.00 £ from CAP.

[bluffcove]

Id love to see your reference for that?

[Bitogno]

Id love to see your reference for that?
Be my guest ( google is your best friend ) :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/monarchy/story/0,2763,1443893,00.html

[bluffcove]

That is nothing to do with the common agricultural policy.

Our farmers are on subsidies* because the EU has crippled our market to the point that we cannot sell at a competitive rate.

*subsidies are covered by our domestic budget!

[Bitogno]

That is nothing to do with the common agricultural policy.

Our farmers are on subsidies* because the EU has crippled our market to the point that we cannot sell at a competitive rate.

*subsidies are covered by our domestic budget!

No ? Read the first 3 lines :

The Queen and Prince Charles received a total of more than £1m in EU farm subsidies in the past two years, it was revealed yesterday.

[bluffcove]

Gutted!

I still stand by the fact that money went to the Duchy of Cornwall etc, but anyway. Im not a European Im British.

[foxtrot023]

Gutted!

, but anyway. Im not a European Im British.

The thing is, went I worked for Cable and Wireless PLC overseas, all the brit expats and any other european, like myself, had more ties than with each other than, per example, with the yanks. We went to see the CL games, we took the piss out of each other, like 2 world wars one world cup type of fun. We europeans really have a lot in common, but it is the differences that I find more enjoyable. We are like a disfunctional sitcom family.

[Knutsen]

The thing is, went I worked for Cable and Wireless PLC overseas, all the brit expats and any other european, like myself, had more ties than with each other than, per example, with the yanks. We went to see the CL games, we took the piss out of each other, like 2 world wars one world cup type of fun. We europeans really have a lot in common, but it is the differences that I find more enjoyable. We are like a disfunctional sitcom family.

100% agreed. I've lived priceless situation with european friends like a finnish guy telling a german girl that germans have no sense of humor. In the end, being spanish myself i found out that the germans have a better sense of humor for me than the finns.

Also making dinner with 2 italians, 1 german , 1 finn and 1 dane mixing english, a bit of french, a bit of italian and some spare german and danish words are things i'm happy i'm currently living. Those are the small details building europe, not our arguments over the CAP

[perdurabo]

Im not a European Im British. can't you be both? I'm Pole and European.

[bluffcove]

Im a Brit first and foremost.

being European is an unfortuante state of affairs that means my passport is a silly colour.

[toki]

100% agreed. I've lived priceless situation with european friends like a finnish guy telling a german girl that germans have no sense of humor. In the end, being spanish myself i found out that the germans have a better sense of humor for me than the finns.

Also making dinner with 2 italians, 1 german , 1 finn and 1 dane mixing english, a bit of french, a bit of italian and some spare german and danish words are things i'm happy i'm currently living. Those are the small details building europe, not our arguments over the CAP

International binge drinkings are the best. Especially when you're the only person representing your country. Had that quite a few times.

And yes, if you put europeans of 10 nationalities and the same amount of americans in one room you'll soon find out what is typical european above your own nationality. Beginning with sports, but there's of course alot more.

[bluffcove]

Admittedly Domestic European teams compete in international competitions!

Anyone know what happenend in the world series recently? did a European team win?

[Knutsen]

International binge drinkings are the best. Especially when you're the only person representing your country. Had that quite a few times.

And yes, if you put europeans of 10 nationalities and the same amount of americans in one room you'll soon find out what is typical european above your own nationality. Beginning with sports, but there's of course alot more.

I have them at least twice a week and after a couple of them you realise europeans are separated basically by the language. Other than that, we are pretty much the same .

[Kitsune]

I'm assuming this is the famed German sense of humour in operation:)

I can imagine that, for one who is equipped with the almost equally famous British sense of humour, this might be difficult to decide. ;-)

[tsuri]

I have waited for the thread to come as far

http://www.abload.de/thumb/the_perfect_europeanolz.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=the_perfect_europeanolz.jpg)

[Pvt.Anderson]

can't you be both? I'm Pole and European.

that's the way europeans must think :)

[perdurabo]

that's the way europeans must think :)
i wouldn't say must, rather "it would be good if they think that way"p-)

[Zeon]

I love this one , that's our strenght.. "Vive la difference!"

European and proud to be...

Zeon

I have waited for the thread to come as far

http://www.abload.de/thumb/the_perfect_europeanolz.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=the_perfect_europeanolz.jpg)

[Pvt.Anderson]

did you even know that Liverpool receives funds from the EU as being one of Europe's poorest regions ?

[tsuri]

did you even know that Liverpool receives funds from the EU as being one of Europe's poorest regions ?

The EU paints with a broad brush here. It is relatively wealthy when compared with some of the Middle and Eastern European countries. But still such areas in western Europe recieve quite a lot of money, yes.


Our farmers are on subsidies* because the EU has crippled our market to the point that we cannot sell at a competitive rate.
Missed this the last time.
Actually there was virtually no farming in the UK to speak of when they joined the EC(was mostly done abroad in the commonwealth), this is why Thatcher got her famous rebate (as her country would recieve virtually no subsidies)
Thanks to subsidies there is now more farming in the UK and rural areas profit from that.

[11 Bravo]

Wow...what intelligent arguments for poppycock global balogney... phooey !.
This planet of ours is bigger and older than mankind..we are but a stain on it and to think we ARE the cause of any tempurature change and or magnetic shift of poles is just as stupid as holocaust denying knuckle draggers.
Do some deep reading on geology and anciet weather trends...and you'll soon see some light through the global baloney "mayonaisse sammiches" that's been fed your weak skulls full o'mush.

[Kant]

Wow...what intelligent arguments for poppycock global balogney... phooey !.
This planet of ours is bigger and older than mankind..we are but a stain on it and to think we ARE the cause of any tempurature change and or magnetic shift of poles is just as stupid as holocaust denying knuckle draggers.
Do some deep reading on geology and anciet weather trends...and you'll soon see some light through the global baloney "mayonaisse sammiches" that's been fed your weak skulls full o'mush.

What to say?
I'd suggest that you read some books on what's actually happening.

[Amateur]

Wow...what intelligent arguments for poppycock global balogney... phooey !.
This planet of ours is bigger and older than mankind..we are but a stain on it and to think we ARE the cause of any tempurature change and or magnetic shift of poles is just as stupid as holocaust denying knuckle draggers.
Do some deep reading on geology and anciet weather trends...and you'll soon see some light through the global baloney "mayonaisse sammiches" that's been fed your weak skulls full o'mush.

Have a good look at this
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/044.htm
before posting any more ignorant "baloney" comments. The devastating human influence on the earth's climate is a proven fact and no serious scientist denies it. If you don't wanna give up your SUV- lifestyle or elect a president with a better environmental agenda, at least spare us your redneck ignorance...
To everybody else here: I know the link has been posted before, sorry about that, some people just need some repetition. I 'm slowly beginning to understand what kind of people elected Dubya; I 'm depressed :-(

[kenshiroIT]

Admittedly Domestic European teams compete in international competitions!

Anyone know what happenend in the world series recently? did a European team win?

italy won the world cup :)

[Vorian]

This planet of ours is bigger and older than mankind..we are but a stain on it and to think we ARE the cause of any tempurature change and or magnetic shift of poles is just as stupid as holocaust denying knuckle draggers.

This little stain is responsible for the extinction of, god kows how many, animal and plant species. If you really want to see an example of the insignificance of humans on this planet, bear in mind that some centuries ago, central Europe was nothing but a huge forest.

[Jobu]

did you even know that Liverpool receives funds from the EU as being one of Europe's poorest regions ?

Maybe now they can buy a striker.

[Pvt.Anderson]

Maybe now they can buy a striker.

they better can cause obviously they suck ( talking of the defeat gainst arsenal's second choice team )

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Actually there was virtually no farming in the UK to speak of when they joined the EC(was mostly done abroad in the commonwealth), this is why Thatcher got her famous rebate (as her country would recieve virtually no subsidies)
Thanks to subsidies there is now more farming in the UK and rural areas profit from that.

You have got to be kidding! No farming in the UK!?
Since before WW2 the UK has had the most intensively used agricultural land in Western Europe.

[ando]

I dont consider myself european well not as much as our fellow eu statesman.Well were all put under one roof by the peeps across the pond but the cultural differences are huge.From a personal point of view i dont know if this correct but countries on the mainland may consider themselfs more european due to the fact that they have frace spain germany italy etc... on there doorstep and on there borders.

Maybe someone could agree with me i dont know ?

[Lancero]

Since before WW2 the UK has had the most intensively used agricultural land in Western Europe.

Very few rural areas (therefor agriculture) considering all the other EU countrys

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5057/farmingeujs9.jpg

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6108/farmingeu1uk9.jpg

http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/agrista/rurdev2006/RD_Report_2006_Chapter3.pdf

[perdurabo]

I dont consider myself european well not as much as our fellow eu statesman.Well were all put under one roof by the peeps across the pond but the cultural differences are huge.From a personal point of view i dont know if this correct but countries on the mainland may consider themselfs more european due to the fact that they have frace spain germany italy etc... on there doorstep and on there borders.

Maybe someone could agree with me i dont know ?
what are those cultural difrences?
you have difrent food? hey difrent Italian regions have way bigger difrences
you have monarchy? so as spain, luxemburg, sweeden, denemark etc... (there still lives in Switzerland grand grand...grand son of Polish kings...)
strenght of EU are those small difrences, thats why you can allways find best place to live -it is not allways place where you born...

[DaGreatRV]

Just like the EU motto says: 'United in diversity'

I kinda like it. :)

I do feel european and the EU would just not be the same without the UK.

We all have our own traditions, languages and histories.
That won't be lost in the EU because there really is no EU identity.

I think we can all work it out. :hug:

[a_very_ex_STAB]

[quote=Lancero;2225566]Very few rural areas (therefor agriculture) considering all the other EU countrys[quote]

That map is BS for example it shows large areas of northern scandinavia as rural but how much real farming goes on there. You missed out where I said Britain is 'intensively' farmed!

How do you think we managed to avoid starving in 2 World Wars when the U Boats were sinking our supply ships for fcuks sake?

[tsuri]

Britain is 'intensively' farmed!
Intensity was not real important for the recieved money. The money you recieve is based on the area of land you have and not how many crops you produce. The more area, the more money. The British isles are small and therefore have smaller space. This results in less subsidies and there you are.

The insignificance of the British farming can be seen easily at the rebate which returns 2/3 of their membership fees. (Was also done because of the UKs relative poverty but you see the point)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Intensity was not real important for the recieved money. The money you recieve is based on the area of land you have and not how many crops you produce. The more area, the more money. The British isles are small and therefore have smaller space. This results in less subsidies and there you are.

The point I was responding to was the assertion that agriculture was somehow at a low level in the UK. Intensity of cultivation in the UK means that agricultural output is actually high.

[Lancero]

Intensive farming done in the UK for the last 30 years or so, it's good for the economy and also a good way to make soil erosion a early problem - and that can get the UK in trouble in a couple of decades (IMHO).


A few more maps

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l224/Lancero1/economic.jpg


http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l224/Lancero1/jobs.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l224/Lancero1/land.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l224/Lancero1/farms.jpg

[tsuri]

The point I was responding to was the assertion that agriculture was somehow at a low level in the UK.
Employees in Agriculture. Source is Eurostat

EU 15: 4,2%
Germany 2,5%
France 4,2%
UK 1%

[Jippo]

100% agreed. I've lived priceless situation with european friends like a finnish guy telling a german girl that germans have no sense of humor. In the end, being spanish myself i found out that the germans have a better sense of humor for me than the finns.


Interestingly enough (being Finnish) I have had the experience that Finnish and British sense of humour is well matched. Somewhat twisted, cynical & dirty. :) And I have to say Germans couldn't follow that. Finns and Britons were laughing and Germans were thinking if a joke was told.

I find Germans truly nice people but they just didn't follow. Then again, Russians have similar jokes as Finns and Britts, just less ****. There seems to be very little sense in telling dirty jokes to Russians. Joking with Swedes ends in disaster as well, since I know too many jokes about them. :) And they get upset... ;)


-jippo

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Intensive farming done in the UK for the last 30 years or so, it's good for the economy and also a good way to make soil erosion a early problem - and that can get the UK in trouble in a couple of decades (IMHO).A few more maps

No problem. We'll just invade some of our Eurowussie neighbours and steal their land.

[Pvt.Anderson]

No problem. We'll just invade some of our Eurowussie neighbours and steal their land.

pff if somebody plays the invasion game then it's us , but next time we will conquer the island ;)

[Gluten]

Some one tell me difinitively how we are causing global warming? Also, if this myth caused by man is "true," why are the democrats considered the saviors of global climate control? While republicans and Bush world wide are the dealers of global warming? Please use your best logic to explain what exactly are "we" doing to heat up Earth.

Also, NATO is dead to America. Still do the exercises, but the most pressing fear towards America is the dissolving of Nationalism in Europe and Russia's faint democracy.

Well, the us gouvernment didnt sign the Kyoto protocoll

[Gluten]

pff if somebody plays the invasion game then it's us , but next time we will conquer the island ;)

No dude their army is to big!!!!!!!!!!

[Gluten]

2Sheds_Jackson wrote:
Quote:
If history is any guide, Europe will wait until it's just about too late before deciding to act, and it will be a first-class sh*tstorm.

- Yes because Europe was late into the last two wars wasnt it.

first of all dont say Europe because that sounds like we are just one bi country, we arent and we are verry different! and second the US didnt exactly act qucikly in the great wars. WWI started 1914 US joined in 1918! WWII started 1939, US joined 1942 and that was because u got attacked but the japaneese and because hitler declared war on U

[tyovan]

No, we entered WW1 on 6 April 1917.

[Gluten]

Britain for sure is on the central-european axis and has always been a key member state in the EC/EU.

It's Scandinavia that isn't Europe. We have our own little thing going on and doesn't have the european identity you southerners have. We didn't even join the European Community until we reluctantly did in 1995 (had there been a referendum today that membership would have been revoked). And Norway and Iceland are still refusing to become members of your union.

im 4 a Scandinavian union, but not like when the danes ruled it

p-)p-):cantbeli:p-)p-)p-)p-)
p-)p-):cantbeli:p-)p-)p-)p-)
:cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli:
p-)p-):cantbeli:p-)p-)p-)p-)
p-)p-):cantbeli:p-)p-)p-)p-)

[Gluten]

No, we entered WW1 on 6 April 1917.

oh, okay got the info wrong

[Pvt.Anderson]

reading this makes me wonder why we even have the EU . Nobody feels european but is proud of the nation/region he comes from .

maybe there should be 3 or 4 unions in europe like a scandinavian union , a german union ,a slavish union and whatnot ... really sad it is

[tsuri]

reading this makes me wonder why we even have the EU . Nobody feels european but is proud of the nation/region he comes from .
You dont have to feel european to enjoy the Union. It helps but it is not mandatory. Just look at the individual nations, regions and cities also have a very strong sense of patriotism.

EU acceptance is quite high because of the practical advantages it offers not because everyone is idealistic about it :)

Multiple Unions have disadvantages and fewer advantages.
One EU gives Europe a stronger voice in the world, extends the common market to more people and distributes wealth better.

A slavic union, for instance, would be the poorhouse of the continent as it would solely consist of former eastern bloc states , whereas a german union could hardly find any members.

Europeans do have more in common than they want to admit as they spent the last couple hundred years distinguishing themselves from the others and stressing what made them different which leads them to be a bit blind about the things that unite them. (Europe forcing the whole world to act like them by kicking their variously coloured behinds also helped a lot to add confusion)


And Norway and Iceland are still refusing to become members of your union.
They are in EFTA which is even better. No voice but have to swallow everything we feed them and they have to pay too. Ripoff of the century so their populations can feel free ;)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Employees in Agriculture. Source is Eurostat

EU 15: 4,2%
Germany 2,5%
France 4,2%
UK 1%

That just means that the UK farms more efficiently

[a_very_ex_STAB]

pff if somebody plays the invasion game then it's us , but next time we will conquer the island ;)

What with?
Bring it on :)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

They are in EFTA which is even better. No voice but have to swallow everything we feed them and they have to pay too. Ripoff of the century so their populations can feel free ;)

But somehow they manage to be the richest nations in Europe. Maybe the EU isn't what it's cracked up to be.

[kosse]

EU acceptance is quite high because of the practical advantages it offers not because everyone is idealistic about it :)


I haven't noticed any practical advantages where I live. On the contrary, stupid laws are making life harder here in the northern ass of Europe.

[kosse]

But somehow they manage to be the richest nations in Europe. Maybe the EU isn't what it's cracked up to be.
I take it that they don't have to pay billions every year to paupering ex soviet bloc countries.

[Doublethinker]

I don't know whether Europe is still serious or not, its up for Europeans themselves to decide, but it has surely gotten too soft on some issues like cultural integrity, immigration, etc.

Its rotting from the inside and nobody plans to do anything about it, while the ones who do get killed like that Pim Fortyne fellow.

If Europe doesn't choose a more nationalist path and doesn't start addresing REAL problems, it may meet its doom in less than 50 years pretty much the same way like the Roman Empire did.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I take it that they don't have to pay billions every year to paupering ex soviet bloc countries.

That sounds like an excellent idea. I'd sign up for that.

[Loki77]

I don't know whether Europe is still serious or not, its up for Europeans themselves to decide, but it has surely gotten too soft on some issues like cultural integrity, immigration, etc.

Its rotting from the inside and nobody plans to do anything about it, while the ones who do get killed like that Pim Fortyne fellow.

If Europe doesn't choose a more nationalist path and doesn't start addresing REAL problems, it may meet its doom in less than 50 years pretty much the same way like the Roman Empire did.
Good point...

...In my opinion Europe is apprehensive about your growing Muslim population, it is not the welfare state that is to blame.


...For me is contrary, it is the very attempt to systematically dismantle it that is causing the crisis.


...And another more complex problem is Multiculturalism's mistake. Multiculturalism is the model adopted by many social democratic nations in 60's with no forward thinking about ethnic tensions in Europe.

[Pvt.Anderson]

I haven't noticed any practical advantages where I live. On the contrary, stupid laws are making life harder here in the northern ass of Europe.

Quite right you are , maybe it's advantegous for the rather poor european countries , but the richer ones ( to which the scandinavian countries belong to ) are ruined by it .

There's way , way too much useless and senseless bureaucarcy in this ****ty union


What with?
Bring it on :)

Well I've heard Leo2s are submersible ;)

[perdurabo]

I take it that they don't have to pay billions every year to paupering ex soviet bloc countries.
tsk tsk Norway has Oil and Gas, this is why they are ritch, they are paying to EU budget, thats one thing. Other, 1.ex soviet block countries pay 100% of their share not like UK that has rebate! Moust of CAP funds goes not to eastern countries as their farmers get only like 50% but to France. Also i would be quite happy if i would be German that they don't have to pay us their war reparations as they would eat up their country, instead they can inwest money here and earn lots of cash.

[kosse]

tsk tsk Norway has Oil and Gas, this is why they are ritch, they are paying to EU budget, thats one thing. Other, 1.ex soviet block countries pay 100% of their share not like UK that has rebate! Moust of CAP funds goes not to eastern countries as their farmers get only like 50% but to France. Also i would be quite happy if i would be German that they don't have to pay us their war reparations as they would eat up their country, instead they can inwest money here and earn lots of cash.
So Norway is rich and can afford to throw money away. So what? The rest of us don't have the oil and there would have better use for the money than donate it to other countries. And I believe you pay that 100% of your share..it doesn't change the fact that in the end you are net beneficiaries while we lose money. It's rather interesting actually that you seem to hate everything socialist so much in the eastern Europe but have no problem taking our money.

[JoaMei]

tsk tsk Norway has Oil and Gas, this is why they are ritch, they are paying to EU budget, thats one thing. Other, 1.ex soviet block countries pay 100% of their share not like UK that has rebate! Moust of CAP funds goes not to eastern countries as their farmers get only like 50% but to France. Also i would be quite happy if i would be German that they don't have to pay us their war reparations as they would eat up their country, instead they can inwest money here and earn lots of cash.

Actually its vice versa, if Poland would have to pay for all the former german ground they have gotten after WW2 or give it back they would be eaten up.

Its worth far more than any reparations you probably would ever get.

This is why the polish goverment doesnt dare to ask for reparations.

[tsuri]

That just means that the UK farms more efficiently

Not quite. With a fraction of the area comes only a fraction of production. Let us compare France, traditionally the foodbasket of the Union, with the UK.

http://www.abload.de/thumb/pflanzenrsg.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=pflanzenrsg.jpg)
This is the generation of money, based on plant based agriculture. From trees over wheat to corn.

Left is france, right is the UK, figures in Millions of ECU and Euros for the recent times.

I picked three early dates and three recent ones. Data from the 1980ies was not available sadly.

http://www.abload.de/thumb/tiere7xh.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=tiere7xh.jpg)
Same game for Animals.



But somehow they manage to be the richest nations in Europe. Maybe the EU isn't what it's cracked up to be.

Richest Nation in Europe?

In absolute terms this would be Germany(highest overall GDP), in relative terms this is Luxembourg(Highest GDP per capita). Both EU members if I may say ;)


I haven't noticed any practical advantages where I live. On the contrary, stupid laws are making life harder here in the northern ass of Europe.

You can travel the Union without visa, you can work, settle and vote anywhere you´d like. You can trade without taxes etc. Europe is not only the stupid laws the states produce there, but also the good ones.


I take it that they don't have to pay billions every year to paupering ex soviet bloc countries.

Money which is well invested. It is not in our interest that our eastern neighbours turn into third world countries. Also countries like Ireland greatly profited from these payments in the past, whereas poorer regions in the UK, Germany or say, the Netherlands have something from that as well.
Beggar of yesterday is the customer of tomorrow. (Besides EFTA Members pay too, Switzerland just recently sent a Billion Euros to the 2004 joiners)

Not to mention the council of regions which gives subnational entities more control and money than individual states.




...In my opinion Europe is apprehensive about your growing Muslim population, it is not the welfare state that is to blame.

The EU has no control over such policies. I blame nation states that were unable to handle the cultural shock brought to them by immigrants from outside of Europe. The common market can be a means to solve that by filling european vacancies with european workers.

[kosse]

You can travel the Union without visa,

I thought the credit for easier travelling belonged to the Schengen agreement.


you can work, settle and vote anywhere you´d like. You can trade without taxes etc. Europe is not only the stupid laws the states produce there, but also the good ones.
Well, I don't see how I'll personally benefit from these laws. Besides, trading and working could be arranged without going for a tight socialist superstate. As for voting..does somebody actually vote in europarlamentary elections roflrofl



Money which is well invested. It is not in our interest that our eastern neighbours turn into third world countries. Also countries like Ireland greatly profited from these payments in the past, whereas poorer regions in the UK, Germany or say, the Netherlands have something from that as well.
Beggar of yesterday is the customer of tomorrow. (Besides EFTA Members pay too, Switzerland just recently sent a Billion Euros to the 2004 joiners)

They did not turn into a 3rd world circus under Soviet rule so why would they turn now that they can govern themselves and do what they want with their countries. I think it's up to them to develop industrial capability to compete on international market.


Not to mention the council of regions which gives subnational entities more control and money than individual states.

Never heard of it.

[Crankep]

To the people who talked about global warming:

To say that Global Warming isn't at all occuring is not true, but saying that nobody does anything about it and that the world will end soon because of it is complete bull****. All these so called enviromentalists who cry about everything all day and how everyone should live selflessly and be kind to the nature, they should do better things than tell us how bad we are.

And that we, mankind is having a super big devestating effect on Mother Nature well no. Things change, I'd bet my left nut that even without us the world would be getting warmer because we are moving further away from the ice age, and then it would reach a point where it will go down again (wich according to Penn And Teller: Bull****, was sometime in the 1980's) and we'd go into and ice age again. The thing is that Earth dosn't really give a rats ass about us. Earth is 4.5 billion years old, it has been through disasters that wiped out most of the living things on it. It survived. Even a full out nuclear war would not bother Earth too much. Earth has all the time in the world. Now here's the problem, we don't. That's why people are whining, they just are calling it something that sounds very nice and selfless.

Now that most people have internet, television that can freak them out by saying that earth will be a wasteland in 10 years if we don't stop this and that, we get these reactions. Media only reports what makes them money, and saying that the world will end soon makes alot more profits that saying "Hey everything is kinda ok". Bad news sell.

Now I'm not saying that we aren't affecting anything at all, of course we do. But not in the same catastrophicl scale as people would like us to think.
We should of course continue to improve everything that reduces the emittance of crap into the nature. Hey I love nature. :)

[tsuri]

I thought the credit for easier travelling belonged to the Schengen agreement.

Which was initially an agreement of EU states, opened to other European states because it made sense to be able to travel through Switzerland etc.


Well, I don't see how I'll personally benefit from these laws. Besides, trading and working could be arranged without going for a tight socialist superstate. As for voting..does somebody actually vote in europarlamentary elections
Socialist Superstate LMAO. Proof that the EU works? Left groups call it too rightwing,too liberal(european sense of the word!) right groups call it a socialist empire.
If both hate it, it must be in the middle, therefore it is good. Maybe you profit from other things such as tight environmental regulations or food safety laws.

1)If you don´t influence EU policy, you have no right to complain.
2) You have passive and active voting right in local elections in any EU country which is your place of residence.


They did not turn into a 3rd world circus under Soviet rule so why would they turn now that they can govern themselves and do what they want with their countries.
Because under soviet influnce their states worked(as far as socialism defines that), for capitalism they lack the infrastructure and ability to compete internationally. EU Membership helps with infrastructure, standardisation, creation of a legal framework for a democratic society.

EU membership perspective was the main motor of reform for those states.

I got the english name wrong, it is the COMMITTEE not the Council :)
http://www.cor.europa.eu/en/index.htm


Keep in mind the following: The EU is no state but a collection of various supranational and international organisations. It´s main purpose is to ease integration of european states without having to start from scratch again all the time.



To the people who talked about global warming:

Earth surely does not care but I, for one, am very interested in the survival of humans as a species.

[Loki77]

The common market can be a means to solve that by filling european vacancies with european workers.

Not Tsuri, I'm a pround Social Conservative.

...I find that in our current system a welfare state is necessary to protect europeans from the tyrannies of the international capitalists.



....Please Tsuri, look tragic risks of European countries about poverty and ethnic tensions, the insane neoliberalism don't care on this questions.

[roland]

Alone, each countries would get focked one by one by the US, China, Russia.
But together nobody can mess with us.

Sometime we have to accept compromises but each member's influence on fellow member is superior to the influence any one could dream to have on the US or China.

Take the Brits: they like to dream of there supposed "special relationship" with the US. But in the end, when national interest is involved they are just a dwarf compared to the US just like any EU country. But in the EU they are among the big voice.

Now sure everything is not perfect. It's up to us to improve this nice tool for peace and power our father built.

[kosse]

Which was initially an agreement of EU states, opened to other European states because it made sense to be able to travel through Switzerland etc.

"The Schengen Agreement was created independently of the European Union in part due to the lack of consensus amongst EU members, and in part because those ready to implement the idea did not wish to wait for others who were not ready."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_treaty


Socialist Superstate LMAO. Proof that the EU works? Left groups call it too rightwing,too liberal(european sense of the word!) right groups call it a socialist empire.
If both hate it, it must be in the middle, therefore it is good.

Nazi Germany worked despite many people hated it, therefore it must have been good?


Maybe you profit from other things such as tight environmental regulations or food safety laws.

As far as I know our environmental regulations and food safety laws have always been more advanced than most of EU. So this doesn't bring us any benefits other than more bureucracy. Then there are environmental laws that don't work in our local conditions like the ban of hunting wolves.


1)If you don´t influence EU policy, you have no right to complain.
2) You have passive and active voting right in local elections in any EU country which is your place of residence.

I influence by voting people who have brains to pull brakes with this nonsense.


Because under soviet influnce their states worked(as far as socialism defines that), for capitalism they lack the infrastructure and ability to compete internationally. EU Membership helps with infrastructure, standardisation, creation of a legal framework for a democratic society.

Thank god big EU countries like Germany, Spain and Italy have so long traditions of democracy. They are just the perfect examples in telling how to do things. :lol:

Seriously, do you really believe ex. Soviet bloc countries coud not have pulled their sh1t together themselves? You seem to treat them as stupid children who cannot mind their own business. Still, it isn't so long ago when you were on you faces in the mud of the Eastern front.


EU membership perspective was the main motor of reform for those states.
You are giving EU too much credit. I think they would have started reforms quite happily even without the prospect of EU membership.


I got the english name wrong, it is the COMMITTEE not the Council :)
http://www.cor.europa.eu/en/index.htm (http://www.cor.europa.eu/en/index.htm)

Sounds good but I'm afraid it's not working. EU laws are always compromises and hardly ever better than the ones made inside the member country tailored to meet local requirements.


Keep in mind the following: The EU is no state but a collection of various supranational and international organisations. It´s main purpose is to ease integration of european states without having to start from scratch again all the time.

Well, the way I see it we are already integrated enough.


Earth surely does not care but I, for one, am very interested in the survival of humans as a species.

You have some very funny replies. :hug: This was news to me -EU being about the survival of the human race. rofl

[foxtrot023]

Well, no matter what you think about the EU, but the most important fact is that we have had not a single war in Western Europe in the last 60yrs, thanks in no small part to the EU and its ancestors unions like the EEC. Not only that, but having the euro as a common currency practically guarantees that no conflict will arise internally, as it will amount to shooting your own economic foot.

[Doublethinker]

About global warming:

Well, we are experiencing it right here right now. Can you imagine Moscow, Russia in January with no snow and positive celcium degree?

Well its today's reality.