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Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:07 AM
Get out now

Iraq - Invaders have ripped up the fabric of a nation that survived Saddam Hussein. This is a war of liberation and we are the enemy. By John Pilger

http://www.newstatesman.com/graphics/ns/images/cover.jpg

Four years ago, I travelled the length of Iraq, from the hills where St Matthew is buried in the Kurdish north to the heartland of Mesopotamia, and Baghdad, and the Shia south. I have seldom felt as safe in any country. Once, in the Edwardian colonnade of Baghdad's book market, a young man shouted something at me about the hardship his family had been forced to endure under the embargo imposed by America and Britain. What happened next was typical of Iraqis; a passer-by calmed the man, putting his arm around his shoulder, while another was quickly at my side. "Forgive him," he said reassuringly. "We do not connect the people of the west with the actions of their governments. You are welcome."

At one of the melancholy evening auctions where Iraqis come to sell their most intimate possessions out of urgent need, a woman with two infants watched as their pushchairs went for pennies, and a man who had collected doves since he was 15 came with his last bird and its cage; and yet people said to me: "You are welcome." Such grace and dignity were often expressed by those Iraqi exiles who loathed Saddam Hussein and opposed both the economic siege and the Anglo-American assault on their homeland; thousands of these anti-Saddamites marched against the war in London last year, to the chagrin of the warmongers, who never understood the dichotomy of their principled stand.

Were I to undertake the same journey in Iraq today, I might not return alive. Foreign terrorists have ensured that. With the most lethal weapons that billions of dollars can buy, and the threats of their cowboy generals and the panic-stricken brutality of their foot soldiers, more than 120,000 of these invaders have ripped up the fabric of a nation that survived the years of Saddam Hussein, just as they oversaw the destruction of its artefacts. They have brought to Iraq a daily, murderous violence which surpasses that of a tyrant who never promised a fake democracy.

Amnesty International reports that US-led forces have "shot Iraqis dead during demonstrations, tortured and ill-treated prisoners, arrested people arbitrarily and held them indefinitely, demolished houses in acts of revenge and collective punishment".

In Fallujah, US marines, described as "tremendously precise" by their psychopathic spokesman, slaughtered up to 600 people, according to hospital directors. They did it with aircraft and heavy weapons deployed in urban areas, as revenge for the killing of four American mercenaries. Many of the dead of Fallujah were women and children and the elderly. Only the Arab television networks, notably al-Jazeera, have shown the true scale of this crime, while the Anglo-American media continue to channel and amplify the lies of the White House and Downing Street.

"Writing exclusively for the Observer before a make-or-break summit with President George Bush this week," sang Britain's former premier liberal newspaper on 11 April, "[Tony Blair] gave full backing to American tactics in Iraq . . . saying that the government would not flinch from its 'historic struggle' despite the efforts of 'insurgents and terrorists'."

That this "exclusive" was not presented as parody shows that the propaganda engine that drove the lies of Blair and Bush on weapons of mass destruction and al-Qaeda links for almost two years is still in service. On BBC news bulletins and Newsnight, Blair's "terrorists" are still currency, a term that is never applied to the principal source and cause of the terrorism, the foreign invaders, who have now killed at least 11,000 civilians, according to Amnesty and others. The overall figure, including conscripts, may be as high as 55,000.

That a nationalist uprising has been under way in Iraq for more than a year, uniting at least 15 major groups, most of them opposed to the old regime, has been suppressed in a mendacious lexicon invented in Washington and London and reported incessantly, CNN-style. "Remnants" and "tribalists" and "fundamentalists" dominate, while Iraq is denied the legacy of a history in which much of the modern world is rooted. The "first-anniversary story" about a laughable poll claiming that half of all Iraqis felt better off now under the occupation is a case in point. The BBC and the rest swallowed it whole. For the truth, I recommend the courageous daily reporting of Jo Wilding, a British human rights observer in Baghdad (www.wildfirejo.blogspot.com).

Even now, as the uprising spreads, there is only cryptic gesturing at the obvious: that this is a war of national liberation and that the enemy is "us". The pro-invasion Sydney Morning Herald is typical. Having expressed "surprise" at the uniting of Shias and Sunnis, the paper's Baghdad correspondent recently described "how GI bullies are making enemies of their Iraqi friends" and how he and his driver had been threatened by Americans. "I'll take you out quick as a flash, mother****er!" a soldier told the reporter. That this was merely a glimpse of the terror and humiliation that Iraqis have to suffer every day in their own country was not made clear; yet this newspaper has published image after unctuous image of mournful American soldiers, inviting sympathy for an invader who has "taken out" thousands of innocent men, women and children.



What we do routinely in the imperial west, wrote Richard Falk, professor of international relations at Princeton, is propagate "through a self-righteous, one-way moral/legal screen positive images of western values and innocence that are threatened, validating a campaign of unrestricted violence". Thus, western state terrorism is erased, and a tenet of western journalism is to excuse or minimise "our" culpability, however atrocious. Our dead are counted; theirs are not. Our victims are worthy; theirs are not.

This is an old story; there have been many Iraqs, or what Blair calls "historic struggles" waged against "insurgents and terrorists". Take Kenya in the 1950s. The approved version is still cherished in the west - first popularised in the press, then in fiction and movies; and like Iraq, it is a lie. "The task to which we have set our minds," declared the governor of Kenya in 1955, "is to civilise a great mass of human beings who are in a very primitive moral and social state." The slaughter of thousands of nationalists, who were never called nationalists, was British government policy. The myth of the Kenyan uprising was that the Mau Mau brought "demonic terror" to the heroic white settlers. In fact, the Mau Mau killed just 32 Europeans, compared with the estimated 10,000 Kenyans killed by the British, who ran concentration camps where the conditions were so harsh that 402 inmates died in just one month. Torture, flogging and abuse of women and children were commonplace. "The special prisons," wrote the imperial histor-ian V G Kiernan, "were probably as bad as any similar Nazi or Japanese establishments." None of this was reported. The "demonic terror" was all one way: black against white. The racist message was unmistakable.

It was the same in Vietnam. In 1969, the discovery of the American massacre in the village of My Lai was described on the cover of Newsweek as "An American tragedy", not a Vietnamese one. In fact, there were many massacres like My Lai, and almost none of them was reported at the time.

The real tragedy of soldiers policing a colonial occupation is also suppressed. More than 58,000 American soldiers were killed in Vietnam. The same number, according to a veterans' study, killed themselves on their return home. Dr Doug Rokke, director of the US army depleted uranium project following the 1991 Gulf invasion, estimates that more than 10,000 American troops have since died as a result, many from contamination illness. When I asked him how many Iraqis had died, he raised his eyes and shook his head. "Solid uranium was used on shells," he said. "Tens of thousands of Iraqis - men, women and children - were contaminated. Right through the 1990s, at international symposiums, I watched Iraqi officials approach their counterparts from the Pentagon and the Ministry of Defence and ask, plead, for help with decontamination. The Iraqis didn't use uranium; it was not their weapon. I watched them put their case, describing the deaths and horrific deformities, and I watched them rebuffed. It was pathetic." During last year's invasion, both American and British forces again used uranium-tipped shells, leaving whole areas so "hot" with radiation that only military survey teams in full protective clothing can approach them. No warning or medical help is given to Iraqi civilians; thousands of children play in these zones. The "coalition" has refused to allow the International Atomic Energy Agency to send experts to assess what Rokke describes as "a catastrophe".

When will this catastrophe be properly reported by those meant to keep the record straight? When will the BBC and others investigate the conditions of some 10,000 Iraqis held without charge, many of them tortured, in US concentration camps inside Iraq, and the corralling, with razor wire, of entire Iraqi villages? When will the BBC and others stop referring to "the handover of Iraqi sovereignty" on 30 June, although there will be no such handover? The new regime will be stooges, with each ministry controlled by American officials and with its stooge army and stooge police force run by Americans. A Saddamite law prohibiting trade unions for public sector workers will stay in force. Leading members of Saddam's infamous secret police, the Mukhabarat, will run "state security", directed by the CIA. The US military will have the same "status of forces" agreement that they impose on the host nations of their 750 bases around the world, which in effect leaves them in charge. Iraq will be a US colony, like Haiti. And when will journalists have the professional courage to report the pivotal role that Israel has played in this grand colonial design for the Middle East?

A few weeks ago, Rick Mercier, a young columnist for the Free-lance Star, a small paper in Virginia, did what no other journalist has done this past year. He apologised to his readers for the travesty of the reporting of events leading to the attack on Iraq. "Sorry we let unsubstantiated claims drive our coverage," he wrote. "Sorry we let a band of self-serving Iraqi defectors make fools of us. Sorry we fell for Colin Powell's performance at the United Nations . . . Maybe we'll do a better job next war."



Well done, Rick Mercier. But listen to the silence of your colleagues on both sides of the Atlantic. No one expects Fox or Wapping or the Daily Telegraph to relent. But what about David Astor's beacon of liberalism, the Observer, which stood against the invasion of Egypt in 1956 and its attendant lies? The Observer not only backed last year's unprovoked, illegal assault on Iraq; it helped create the mendacious atmosphere in which Blair could get away with his crime. The reputation of the Observer, and the fact that it published occasional mitigating material, meant that lies and myths gained legitimacy. A front-page story gave credence to the bogus claim that Iraq was behind the anthrax attacks in the US. And there were those unnamed western "intelligence sources", all those straw men, all those hints, in David Rose's two-page "investigation" headlined "The Iraqi connection", that left readers with the impression that Saddam Hussein might well have had a lot to do with the attacks of 11 September 2001. "There are occasions in history," wrote Rose, "when the use of force is both right and sensible. This is one of them." Tell that to 11,000 dead civilians, Mr Rose.

It is said that British officers in Iraq now describe the "tactics" of their American comrades as "appalling". No, the very nature of a colonial occupation is appalling, as the families of 13 Iraqis killed by British soldiers, who are taking the British government to court, will agree. If the British military brass understand an inkling of their own colonial past, not least the bloody British retreat from Iraq 83 years ago, they will whisper in the ear of the little Wellington-***-Palmerston in 10 Downing Street: "Get out now, before we are thrown out."

Skaman
04-20-2004, 03:10 AM
source?

Fintin
04-20-2004, 03:10 AM
It is said that British officers

i just browsed over this thing, but....a statment like that doesnt have much weight to it...::puts on fire suit and runs::

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:12 AM
Before people jump on my throat with insults and abuse for posting this, please do take the time to actually read the article and think about it (key word being read and think).
Thank you.

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:12 AM
source?

http://www.newstatesman.co.uk/nscoverstory.htm

American Patriot
04-20-2004, 03:15 AM
:roll: :cantbeli:

BTW most people here can read (I hope).

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:16 AM
It is said that British officers

i just browsed over this thing, but....a statment like that doesnt have much weight to it...::puts on fire suit and runs::

I am sure he can verify if you personally ask him? I will try to find his email so anyone with questions can contact him personally.

seruriermarshal
04-20-2004, 03:16 AM
It's a joke , his meaning is Anti-American and terrorists are right , f**k this sh*t , He afraid terrorists , so say these

American Patriot
04-20-2004, 03:18 AM
BTW Is the author British? That would explain a lot.

Fintin
04-20-2004, 03:18 AM
im just say....when an artical has statments like that...with out direct quotes of actual people...it just carries a bit of shad over it....i used to do that when writing school papers...kinda maskes the fact i didnt have real sourses...just saying it happens ::closes oven door again and stops pokeing around::

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:20 AM
Oh and the article isn't meant as an offensive post against pro-war americans. It's meant to give those who haven't heard the other side of the story a taste of it. Please don't let nationalism or pride get in the way of your better judgement. We are humans before we are anything else....remember that....

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:21 AM
:roll: :cantbeli:

BTW most people here can read (I hope).

:cantbeli: oops....

Mr Gently Benevolent
04-20-2004, 03:25 AM
BTW Is the author British? That would explain a lot.
Elaborate please, if you can.

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:25 AM
BTW Is the author British? That would explain a lot.

I am Afghan and I wrote a 10 page essay on why the Taliban must be destroyed (this was prior to Sept. 11). The nationality of an author is often an excuse used to avoid ourselves from reading, facing, and addressing the strong arguments that author may have which may be against our firm views.

Skaman
04-20-2004, 03:25 AM
Not a bad article, I don’t agree with everything this journalist points out; the conspiracy theory of Israel having a hand in Iraq comes to mind.


And when will journalists have the professional courage to report the pivotal role that Israel has played in this grand colonial design for the Middle East?


Perhaps I am misreading that part, but it seemed to insinuate that idea.

Albeit, this is an important article to consider, particular for an audience on militaryphotos.net

Even for the most pro right individuals, there are some words of value here to consider.

Thanks for posting Rebel 7

Kilgor
04-20-2004, 03:25 AM
Pilger is a Aussie far lefty who blames the whole worlds problems on Americans and jews.

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:27 AM
Not a bad article, I don’t agree with everything this journalist points out; the conspiracy theory of Israel having a hand in Iraq comes to mind.


And when will journalists have the professional courage to report the pivotal role that Israel has played in this grand colonial design for the Middle East?


Perhaps I am misreading that part, but it seemed to insinuate that idea.

Albeit, this is an important article to consider, particular for an audience on militaryphotos.net

Even for the most pro right individuals, there are some words of value here to consider.

Thanks for posting Rebel 7

You are welcome bro....

btw...I don't agree with every point he makes...but he does have some very strong arguments...

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:30 AM
Pilger is a Aussie far lefty who blames the whole worlds problems on Americans and jews.

One can also say, "CNN and FOXNEWS is a network that blames the whole worlds problems on Islam and Arabs." Oops..am I allowed to say that publically?

seruriermarshal
04-20-2004, 03:33 AM
Pilger is a Aussie far lefty who blames the whole worlds problems on Americans and jews.

One can also say, "CNN and FOXNEWS is a network that blames the whole worlds problems on Islam and Arabs." Oops..am I allowed to say that publically?

In yahoo , MSN...... , more people support Islam and Arabs , and anti-U.S. ......

seruriermarshal
04-20-2004, 03:33 AM
Pilger is a Aussie far lefty who blames the whole worlds problems on Americans and jews.

One can also say, "CNN and FOXNEWS is a network that blames the whole worlds problems on Islam and Arabs." Oops..am I allowed to say that publically?

In yahoo , MSN...... , more people support Islam and Arabs , and anti-U.S. ......

Skaman
04-20-2004, 03:34 AM
I would rather dig through the excrement of a soiled diaper in a trash can to get my news. The Flag waving and biases of Fox-"news" are nauseating.

seruriermarshal
04-20-2004, 03:37 AM
I would rather get my news source from the bottom of a soiled trash-can diaper than go to Fox-"News". The Flag waving and biases are nauseating.

Perhaps your biases to FOX news ......

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:39 AM
Pilger is a Aussie far lefty who blames the whole worlds problems on Americans and jews.

One can also say, "CNN and FOXNEWS is a network that blames the whole worlds problems on Islam and Arabs." Oops..am I allowed to say that publically?

We are no better than the leftists whom we CLAIM (key word claim) are deviating from the facts. As some of them may blame the whole world's problems on Jews and Americans, we do no better except repeat their mistake by exposing ourselves ONLY to propaganda machines such as CNN, FOXNEWS, etc. and through insults and abuse exhibit the view that the whole world's problems are because of Islam and Arabs. I do believe it was during the Iraq war the people began converting from CNN to BBC and CBC and other broadcast companies that give a more neutral view.

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:44 AM
Pilger is a Aussie far lefty who blames the whole worlds problems on Americans and jews.

One can also say, "CNN and FOXNEWS is a network that blames the whole worlds problems on Islam and Arabs." Oops..am I allowed to say that publically?

In yahoo , MSN...... , more people support Islam and Arabs , and anti-U.S. ......

Bro, the issue here is not about pro-US or anti-Islam. Just because one is pro-US does not mean they are anti-Islam or vice-versa. I myself am a pro-US, pro-West person, yet at the same time I am a devout Muslim. The issue that is being addressed is that one must expose themselves to all sides of the story. From that, we must disect the fact from fiction and put together the facts of each side of the story to make a view that is not leaning towards one side illogically or without strong evidence and arguments. I am an Afghan who opposed the Russian invasion of my country, but I listen and read carefully the accounts of Russian soldiers in my country and the brutality they faced for being an invader.

seruriermarshal
04-20-2004, 03:45 AM
Pilger is a Aussie far lefty who blames the whole worlds problems on Americans and jews.

One can also say, "CNN and FOXNEWS is a network that blames the whole worlds problems on Islam and Arabs." Oops..am I allowed to say that publically?

We are no better than the leftists whom we CLAIM (key word claim) are deviating from the facts. As some of them may blame the whole world's problems on Jews and Americans, we do no better except repeat their mistake by exposing ourselves ONLY to propaganda machines such as CNN, FOXNEWS, etc. and through insults and abuse exhibit the view that the whole world's problems are because of Islam and Arabs. I do believe it was during the Iraq war the people began converting from CNN to BBC and CBC and other broadcast companies that give a more neutral view.

Example ...... if CNN and FOX news anti-Iraq war then they are neutral ?

seruriermarshal
04-20-2004, 03:53 AM
Pilger is a Aussie far lefty who blames the whole worlds problems on Americans and jews.

One can also say, "CNN and FOXNEWS is a network that blames the whole worlds problems on Islam and Arabs." Oops..am I allowed to say that publically?

In yahoo , MSN...... , more people support Islam and Arabs , and anti-U.S. ......

Bro, the issue here is not about pro-US or anti-Islam. Just because one is pro-US does not mean they are anti-Islam or vice-versa. I myself am a pro-US, pro-West person, yet at the same time I am a devout Muslim. The issue that is being addressed is that one must expose themselves to all sides of the story. From that, we must disect the fact from fiction and put together the facts of each side of the story to make a view that is not leaning towards one side illogically or without strong evidence and arguments. I am an Afghan who opposed the Russian invasion of my country, but I listen and read carefully the accounts of Russian soldiers in my country and the brutality they faced for being an invader.

Yes , we need neutral news , I hope Islam can show peace , maybe they think must believe Arabs brother , but if these brother is terrorist , they must anti them .

Rebel 7
04-20-2004, 03:59 AM
Pilger is a Aussie far lefty who blames the whole worlds problems on Americans and jews.

One can also say, "CNN and FOXNEWS is a network that blames the whole worlds problems on Islam and Arabs." Oops..am I allowed to say that publically?

We are no better than the leftists whom we CLAIM (key word claim) are deviating from the facts. As some of them may blame the whole world's problems on Jews and Americans, we do no better except repeat their mistake by exposing ourselves ONLY to propaganda machines such as CNN, FOXNEWS, etc. and through insults and abuse exhibit the view that the whole world's problems are because of Islam and Arabs. I do believe it was during the Iraq war the people began converting from CNN to BBC and CBC and other broadcast companies that give a more neutral view.

Example ...... if CNN and FOX news anti-Iraq war then they are neutral ?

No, it all depends on the logic and evidence of their arguments. If WMD were found, and direct links, funding by the Saddam regime to Al Qaida were found, and CNN and FOXNEWS said that the US had no reason to go to war, I'd be the first to criticize them as being biased against the US. Since the "evidence" the US used to justify its war (in Iraq) has yet to be found, hasn't that got people thinking what the basis for this war was anyways or whether they were justified in going to war in the first place? Its like finding out it wasn't Al Qaida or bin Laden all these years doing the terrorist attacks (embassy bombings in Africa, USS Cole, Sept. 11, etc), but that it was a crazy army of anti-mcdonalds trolls (sorry for the pathetic example) that did it. Wouldn't people start asking why the hell the US went to war in Afghanistan in the first place? Don't get me wrong, I am glad the Taliban are gone and even if Sept. 11 didn't happen, I would have preferred the US get invovled and help the Afghans rid their nation of the Taliban. My point is that an American who justified his nation going to war BASED ONLY ON THOSE PREMISES (ie. Sept 11 and other terrorist attack) must feel very dissappointed in how incorrect his judgment was. Those Americans who had other reasons to go to war against the Taliban(ie. helping the Afghans rid their nation of lunatics, helping Afghanistan become democratic, helping Afghanistan achieve peace and prosperity) besides the terrorist attacks may still be able to justify going to war even if lets say my pathetic example of the trolls ended up being true......

seruriermarshal
04-20-2004, 04:10 AM
Rebel 7 , I think saddam anti-U.S. , more year , He lie to Iraq people , then Iraq people hate freedom world , so AQ will can from Iraq people take support , Everybody will afraid .

Mark Sman
04-20-2004, 04:36 AM
Well, I read a good bit of the writting that started this thread. Enough to get the direction.

It is a point of view. I am willing to hear oppposing points of view, and an internet forum is a good place for that.

I do, however, disagree with a sizeable portion of this presentation.

I think the author presents the nature of war: Bloody, cruel and random. This is as it has always been.

The author advises "Get out now, before we are thrown out." I think this an idea of small responsibility.

The invading armies have a responsibility to maintain order in the teritory they have occupied. I believe that is enumerated in numerous places in international law.

Now, how to transfer order?

First, all the invading armies are responsible to help.

Second, the ultimate goal is a transfer to Iraqi civil authority.

Third, it may take additional help from nations and authorities not yet involved.

After that, the floor is open to suggestions ladies and gentleman.

Anyone can't point the finger back. Who will point foward?

Royal
04-20-2004, 05:56 AM
Dr Doug Rokke, director of the US army depleted uranium project following the 1991 Gulf invasion, estimates that more than 10,000 American troops have since died as a result, many from contamination illness. When I asked him how many Iraqis had died, he raised his eyes and shook his head. "Solid uranium was used on shells," he said. "Tens of thousands of Iraqis - men, women and children - were contaminated. Right through the 1990s, at international symposiums, I watched Iraqi officials approach their counterparts from the Pentagon and the Ministry of Defence and ask, plead, for help with decontamination. The Iraqis didn't use uranium; it was not their weapon. I watched them put their case, describing the deaths and horrific deformities, and I watched them rebuffed. It was pathetic." During last year's invasion, both American and British forces again used uranium-tipped shells, leaving whole areas so "hot" with radiation that only military survey teams in full protective clothing can approach them. No warning or medical help is given to Iraqi civilians; thousands of children play in these zones. The "coalition" has refused to allow the International Atomic Energy Agency to send experts to assess what Rokke describes as "a catastrophe".


Balls. DU in aerosol form is very dangerous - in sabot form it is about as dangerous as your TV set. Yes people have suffered from DU dust inhalation, but that settles and degrades quickly after use. It is an issue but Pilger's comments about 'hot zones' and required protection levels are crap. There is far more risk from discarded Iran-Iraq war era chemical munitions.


It is said that British officers in Iraq now describe the "tactics" of their American comrades as "appalling".

Yes I have heard that said. In private. We have issues with how the campagin is being run, in the same way that the US has issues with things that we have done.


No, the very nature of a colonial occupation is appalling, as the families of 13 Iraqis killed by British soldiers, who are taking the British government to court, will agree.

As with the case against Col Tim Collins - thrown out. Or for that matter the spurious claims of rape and injuries caused by UXO in Kenya. Encouraged by money grabbing lawyers and thrown out as without foundation.

BlackRain
04-20-2004, 08:58 AM
This article is one man's opinion.

After reading it, it must be true.

He quotes Amnesty International and al-Jazeera as his sources.

And.. In a non-biased manner, describes a "spokesman" for the USMC in Falluja as "psychopathic".

This seems like a balanced and fair piece of ****.

It's is red meat to the US Bashers and haters.


Oh and by the way, why does Dumiscus use the avatar of Che Guevara? Che was a Marxist pyschopathic killer that gunned down innocent men and women in the La Cabana fortress.

Here is a quote from Dumiscus's hero,""To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary,... These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon".

sierraone
04-20-2004, 09:22 AM
Dr Doug Rokke, director of the US army depleted uranium project following the 1991 Gulf invasion, estimates that more than 10,000 American troops have since died as a result, many from contamination illness. When I asked him how many Iraqis had died, he raised his eyes and shook his head. "Solid uranium was used on shells," he said. "Tens of thousands of Iraqis - men, women and children - were contaminated. Right through the 1990s, at international symposiums, I watched Iraqi officials approach their counterparts from the Pentagon and the Ministry of Defence and ask, plead, for help with decontamination. The Iraqis didn't use uranium; it was not their weapon. I watched them put their case, describing the deaths and horrific deformities, and I watched them rebuffed. It was pathetic." During last year's invasion, both American and British forces again used uranium-tipped shells, leaving whole areas so "hot" with radiation that only military survey teams in full protective clothing can approach them. No warning or medical help is given to Iraqi civilians; thousands of children play in these zones. The "coalition" has refused to allow the International Atomic Energy Agency to send experts to assess what Rokke describes as "a catastrophe".


Balls. DU in aerosol form is very dangerous - in sabot form it is about as dangerous as your TV set. Yes people have suffered from DU dust inhalation, but that settles and degrades quickly after use. It is an issue but Pilger's comments about 'hot zones' and required protection levels are crap. There is far more risk from discarded Iran-Iraq war era chemical munitions.

Here we had the 'Balkan syndrome' from DU. Opinions again are split mainly dictated where you stand politically. Of course right-wingers would say there is no such thing and lefties that it is a war crime and everyone else in between the two. The one I have heard and makes more sense is the advise that says do not go near destroyed enemy vehicles however curious you may be.



It is said that British officers in Iraq now describe the "tactics" of their American comrades as "appalling".

Yes I have heard that said. In private. We have issues with how the campagin is being run, in the same way that the US has issues with things that we have done.

I have heard too that Brits are critisizing americans for 'heavy-handedness' but I think the brits are not policing the same people as the US. The south was opressed more than anyone by Saddam and al-Sadr doesn't have a stronghold there. People are friendly to the British not because of the soft approach but they are truly being liberated. If the sectors were reversed the Brits would have same problems and they would then be critisized for being 'heavy'. And before you mention Northern Ireland it is not the same.



No, the very nature of a colonial occupation is appalling, as the families of 13 Iraqis killed by British soldiers, who are taking the British government to court, will agree.

As with the case against Col Tim Collins - thrown out. Or for that matter the spurious claims of rape and injuries caused by UXO in Kenya. Encouraged by money grabbing lawyers and thrown out as without foundation.

Well the Albanian families got compensation for the shooting by the british paratroopers. The british army has left itself open to such claims and every soldier in the british army has to have a lawyer with him to tell him when he can shoot. I have heard also the compensation culture is the largest within any army in Europe and claims are made by injured soldiers all the time. The americans wisely have unilateraly excluded themselves from any prosecution in any international court on grounds of war crimes. But then can you argue with them?

rokus2595
04-20-2004, 10:11 AM
"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary,... These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon".

sources??

shrek
04-20-2004, 10:27 AM
Rebel7! PM!

Royal
04-20-2004, 10:40 AM
Dr Doug Rokke, director of the US army depleted uranium project following the 1991 Gulf invasion, estimates that more than 10,000 American troops have since died as a result, many from contamination illness. When I asked him how many Iraqis had died, he raised his eyes and shook his head. "Solid uranium was used on shells," he said. "Tens of thousands of Iraqis - men, women and children - were contaminated. Right through the 1990s, at international symposiums, I watched Iraqi officials approach their counterparts from the Pentagon and the Ministry of Defence and ask, plead, for help with decontamination. The Iraqis didn't use uranium; it was not their weapon. I watched them put their case, describing the deaths and horrific deformities, and I watched them rebuffed. It was pathetic." During last year's invasion, both American and British forces again used uranium-tipped shells, leaving whole areas so "hot" with radiation that only military survey teams in full protective clothing can approach them. No warning or medical help is given to Iraqi civilians; thousands of children play in these zones. The "coalition" has refused to allow the International Atomic Energy Agency to send experts to assess what Rokke describes as "a catastrophe".


Balls. DU in aerosol form is very dangerous - in sabot form it is about as dangerous as your TV set. Yes people have suffered from DU dust inhalation, but that settles and degrades quickly after use. It is an issue but Pilger's comments about 'hot zones' and required protection levels are crap. There is far more risk from discarded Iran-Iraq war era chemical munitions.

Here we had the 'Balkan syndrome' from DU. Opinions again are split mainly dictated where you stand politically. Of course right-wingers would say there is no such thing and lefties that it is a war crime and everyone else in between the two. The one I have heard and makes more sense is the advise that says do not go near destroyed enemy vehicles however curious you may be.

We have it too as do (to my knowledge) the French. I'm not saying that it's not dangerous, but that Pilger is talking bollocks when he describes 'hot areas'.




It is said that British officers in Iraq now describe the "tactics" of their American comrades as "appalling".

Yes I have heard that said. In private. We have issues with how the campagin is being run, in the same way that the US has issues with things that we have done.

I have heard too that Brits are critisizing americans for 'heavy-handedness' but I think the brits are not policing the same people as the US. The south was opressed more than anyone by Saddam and al-Sadr doesn't have a stronghold there. People are friendly to the British not because of the soft approach but they are truly being liberated. If the sectors were reversed the Brits would have same problems and they would then be critisized for being 'heavy'. And before you mention Northern Ireland it is not the same.

I've got no intention of mentioning NI - I've served in a few other places too ;) Yes, we have an 'easier' sector (or at least those of us that work in that area), and yes we would have similar problems if the AORs were reversed. But we would NOT act in the same way. For a start we wouldn't have the manpower, but perhaps more importantly we have a different culture (honed in part by NI, as well as places like the Oman and Borneo). The comments are taken (to some extent) out of context because we have that different culture/way of doing things. We happen to think that our way of doing things is the best, the US disagree...




No, the very nature of a colonial occupation is appalling, as the families of 13 Iraqis killed by British soldiers, who are taking the British government to court, will agree.

As with the case against Col Tim Collins - thrown out. Or for that matter the spurious claims of rape and injuries caused by UXO in Kenya. Encouraged by money grabbing lawyers and thrown out as without foundation.

Well the Albanian families got compensation for the shooting by the british paratroopers. The british army has left itself open to such claims and every soldier in the british army has to have a lawyer with him to tell him when he can shoot. I have heard also the compensation culture is the largest within any army in Europe and claims are made by injured soldiers all the time. The americans wisely have unilateraly excluded themselves from any prosecution in any international court on grounds of war crimes. But then can you argue with them?

The Albanians got compensation because the Paras exceeded their ROE. It's as simple as that. As to a compensation culture - show me some evidence, because that's absolute bollocks. Just for example, I have a mate who now works for a PMC who lost a leg - he proved that he could do all the required physical tests but was forced to retire. On a recent occasion 3 members of an 8 person team had broken their backs in a/c crashes or parachute accidents. All continue to serve.

BlackRain
04-20-2004, 11:18 AM
"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary,... These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon".

sources??

For all ye Che Lovers Out There! Sorry to burst your bubble...

Guevara made it a policy for his men to parade the families and friends of the executed before the blood-, bone- and brain-spattered paredon.

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/chde.htm


The exact toll of victims in the paredon cannot be established, but figures vary from 7,876 calculated by anti-Castro exile reports to Che's own admission of at least 1,500 deaths. 4 Che perceived no injustice in this sys-tematic slaughter of "enemies of the people", particularly since most were former members of the "oppressor army". The specific charge against a defendant meant little in Che's judgement; the accused stood before him guilty of the much larger crime of serving in the ranks of Batista's regular army. The massive blood-letting revealed Che's willingness to deal with foes ruthlessly.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1985/SDR.htm

front
04-20-2004, 11:22 AM
" Balls. DU in aerosol form is very dangerous - in sabot form it is about as dangerous as your TV set. Yes people have suffered from DU dust inhalation, but that settles and degrades quickly after use. It is an issue but Pilger's comments about 'hot zones' and required protection levels are crap. There is far more risk from discarded Iran-Iraq war era chemical munitions. "

How about this? Take all the DU out of Iraq, in whatever form, and sprinkle it across England, in the same concentrations. Then... go and live in the "hottest" part of England and bring up your children. No? Not like that idea?

"Hot zones"? I define them as anyplace were there is even a hint of DU in any shape or form. I would NOT want to live near, or within, any "hot zone" for any reason no matter how "hot" it would be.

The Iraqi people do not deserve to either.

It's a bloody disgrace.

From the British MOD page on DU

http://www.mod.uk/issues/depleted_uranium/gulf_safety_instructions.htm

"13. Entry into DU Contaminated Areas. When it is necessary to enter DU contaminated areas, exposed skin is to be covered and especially any exposed wounds. If practicable, NBC rubber gloves or leather gloves and a dust mask, such as Mask, Air Filtering Disposable (NSN 4240-99-156-3608) should be worn. If no mask is readily available, a handkerchief, shemaugh or sweat rag (wet better than dry) should be used to cover nose and mouth. Full NBC IPE is not necessary unless prolonged dust-raising activities are to be carried out, such as extensive repair or vehicle recovery activities. As little time as practicable should be spent on the task, attempting to keep general dust disturbance to a minimum. As soon as possible after task completion, dust should be brushed off clothing in a controlled and marked site, any nose/mouth and glove protection being maintained until contaminated clothing has been removed. Outer clothing should be changed at the first convenient opportunity and laundered in the normal way before being worn again. Hands should then be washed before eating, drinking or smoking. "

cheers

front

HELEX
04-20-2004, 11:29 AM
This article is one man's opinion.

After reading it, it must be true.

He quotes Amnesty International and al-Jazeera as his sources.

And.. In a non-biased manner, describes a "spokesman" for the USMC in Falluja as "psychopathic".

This seems like a balanced and fair piece of ****.

It's is red meat to the US Bashers and haters.

So, what is a better Source? Newsmax, Foxnews or Sun? rofl

Royal
04-20-2004, 11:54 AM
Front - having worked in DU contaminated areas of Bosnia and Kosovo (as well as possibly Iraq), Pilgers comments are still bollocks.I'll say it yet again - yes DU dust is nasty and should be avoided if possible. Are full chemical protection suits and the like necessary? NO

BTW I'm Scottish (as most of the board are well aware), you can do what you like with England.

As to the MoD advice - the Air Filtering Disposable (NSN 4240-99-156-3608) is no longer issued and if they, in the litigous state we live in now do not even consider full IPE a requirement in such areas, then I reckon it's fairly safe.

sierraone
04-20-2004, 12:58 PM
The Albanians got compensation because the Paras exceeded their ROE. It's as simple as that. As to a compensation culture - show me some evidence, because that's absolute bollocks. Just for example, I have a mate who now works for a PMC who lost a leg - he proved that he could do all the required physical tests but was forced to retire. On a recent occasion 3 members of an 8 person team had broken their backs in a/c crashes or parachute accidents. All continue to serve.

Well I have to admit that I can't of course defend my arguments about the british army with you.. :( It is just little bits I have heard on the news about women in the british forces being paid big bucks as compensation for previous ****** harassment, soldiers suffering injuries from service and getting lawyers to defend their cases and get money again. We had some british soldier magasines when I was in Bosnia last year and had some advertisement in it about 'if you were injured during service please call us blah blah' as you get on your television.

khukuri
04-20-2004, 07:20 PM
nice avatar rebelseven