Toyota, an All American car company?

[ViktorNavorski]

Toyota, an All American car company? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6247479.stm)
By Steve Schifferes
Economics reporter, BBC News, Detroit Motor Show

Having made tremendous headway in the US market with its small, energy efficient petrol-electric hybrid cars, Toyota is getting ready to take on its US rivals on their home turf with an American model of its own.

Toyota's Tundra pick-up truck is the Japanese company's first all-American vehicle, completely designed and manufactured in the good 'ol US of A.

"The Asian automakers have cornered the market on vanilla," says Global Insight automotive analyst Rebecca Lindland.

"Now they're adding the hot fudge chocolate with cherries on top, which is what they have to do to progress in the US market."

Toyota has built a spanking new assembly plant for the Tundra in San Antonio, Texas, which is supported by a slew of design and development centres across the country.

It hopes its US branding will attract truck buyers in the American heartland in the West and South and help it achieve sales of 200,000 Tundras this year alone.

"Toyota is going after a new segment with its truck - heartland America, NASCAR drivers, who are more patriotic [and] not Toyota drivers typically," says Ms Lindland.

"It is good to base production in Texas - heartland of this group."

Climbing the ladder

Toyota knows that for it to reach these NASCAR-watching men, being patriotic has to be part of the pitch.

If it succeeds here, the company that would be hurt most would be Ford, the market leader in pick-up trucks.

Pick-up trucks are big business in America, where trucks (including minivans - or people carriers - and sports utility vehicles - or SUVs) outsell cars by some margin.

And although demand for big SUVs is falling, demand for smaller so-called crossover models - or CUVs - is growing sharply.

Success could also elevate Toyota from third position in the US, to second after General Motors, knocking Ford into third place in terms of the number of cars and trucks sold.

Boosting capacity

Toyota is deadly serious about building up its US manufacturing capacity to match its rising sales.

The company already produces more than 1.5 million cars in the USA, but it sells 2.4 million.

The number of locally produced Toyota models is set to soar as the car maker is planning to open another two new plants next year, and probably at least another two by 2011.

In total, this should add at least 500,000 to its production capacity.
"We are a global company, but we have to apply our global lessons locally and to localise production,"

Toyota's US president Jim Press tells BBC News.

"Our goal is produce all the cars we sell in the US within US."

Toyota's strategy of designing globally but manufacturing locally is characteristic of the new global division of labour in the car industry.

GM has also merged its design teams around the world, creating common platforms for different sizes of cars, while modifying the designs to local conditions.

Toyota, however, also has a broader political purpose in mind.

No unions

In the 1980s, after pressure from the Big Three automakers and their unions, Toyota's exports from Japan to the US were limited by a so-called Voluntary Export Restraint agreement.

That was when Toyota decided to build up as much manufacturing capacity in the US as possible, opening its first plant in Kentucky in 1988.

Toyota is keen to stress that it is still adding jobs, while GM, Ford and Chrysler are axing the jobs of thousands of unionised workers.

Workers in Toyota's US plants have never voted for a union, and some observers believe that union work rules would impede its vaunted just-in-time production system.

But with the Democrats now back into control of Congress, and the 2008 Presidential race up for grabs, there have been renewed calls by the unions to give preferential treatment to American-owned carmakers like Ford and GM.

One proposal is for a special tax-break for petrol-electric hybrids built in the USA, aimed at attracting Toyota's Prius model, which is still only made in Japan.

Toyota is already converting the rest of its range to offer a hybrid option, and expects to sell more Camry hybrids than Prius hybrids in the future.
In the past 30 years there has been a dramatic change in the US car industry, which at that time had 90% of its cars built by US companies in the USA.

Now foreign owned companies - mainly Japanese and Korean, though there are also a fair few Europeans doing well here - sell and build nearly half of all cars sold in America.

This has caused a certain amount of unease among Americans, and not just in Detroit.

Yet, the trend is likely to continue as the likes of Honda and Nissan, Hyundai and Kia, follow suit and start branding their cars as Made in the USA.

[Hellfish]

Oh my god, its 1985 all over again! American companies can't make cars that people want to drive and Japan Inc will take over all of our companies! THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

[ViktorNavorski]

Oh my god, its 1985 all over again! American companies can't make cars that people want to drive and Japan Inc will take over all of our companies! THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!Granted the article is a bit...melodramatic...but I disagree with you about it being "The sky is falling!" The differences with the 80's is that today, while the Big Three has seen decline in sale, closing down productions and cutting personnel, the Japanese are doing the opposite while keeping everything IN the U.S. contrary to the what happen in the 80's. It's a matter of competing businesses and one is doing a lot better than the others.

Another point would be the involvement of the federal government, the Voluntary Export Restraint back then help the Japanese get to where they are today and realistically challenge the Big Three in their own backyard. Now, they want the government to intervene again, a lot of good that's going to do.

[CG51]

What’s ironic is that the Japanese learned all aspects of the auto industry by studying the U.S. automakers and now we are studying their business model (hopefully before our automakers fold).

[2Sheds_Jackson]

What’s ironic is that the Japanese learned all aspects of the auto industry by studying the U.S. automakers and now we are studying their business model (hopefully before our automakers fold).

Yup. Of course I happen to think The single most important thing they learned was how expensive unions are. If you can keep unions out, you can put that money back into the product, back into R&D, and lower prices...seems to have worked pretty well.

[CG51]

Unions are like a two edge sword. They have increased wages and benefits (as in medical) and made safer work areas. But it’s the pensions that are killing the automakers here in the U.S.

[BadKarma26]

Toyota is the best car company in the world

[ZoneOne]

In order to label a car domestic made it has to contain over 70% of the parts that were made in the country. A 2005 Ford Mustang only contains 65% domestic parts where as a Toyota Camry contains 80%

[CG51]

Oh, they make a damn fine product. My next car will be a Toyota. There are some Camry's out there with 300,000 + miles and still running strong. Hate to say it, but you won't find many Chevy's or Ford's on the road with that kind of milege.

[sir-chimp]

Unions are like a two edge sword. They have increased wages and benefits (as in medical) and made safer work areas. But it’s the pensions that are killing the automakers here in the U.S.

Unions have done more than anything else to run businesses out of my state.

[Ghostryder]

Yup. Of course I happen to think The single most important thing they learned was how expensive unions are. If you can keep unions out, you can put that money back into the product, back into R&D, and lower prices...seems to have worked pretty well.

I think for once 2sheds, I'm gonna have to go ahead and agree with you. Artificially high wages and pention plans aren't exactly helping the big three along.

FYI, when it comes time to look for my first car, i'm beelining it straight for the used toyota lot, and its all thanks to top gear, a hilux, and the entirety of Bristol

[digrar]

Toyota is the best car company in the world

What are you basing that on? Total sales, build quality, range quantity, profitablility, a collection of all those factors? Just wondering.

[CG51]

Unions have done more than anything else to run businesses out of my state.

Yeah, like I said a two edge sword. There is a person that I work with said if it wasn't for the union, she would have been fired without just cause. The upper management had given her notice of action (two weeks) and stated that she was terminated from employment. The union called a hearing and it was favorable for her. That’s not to say the management isn't looking for other ways to can her but in this case her union dues paid off.

[Ratamacue]

What are you basing that on? Total sales, build quality, range quantity, profitablility, a collection of all those factors? Just wondering.My personal experience, as well as that of most of the people I know who've owned Toyotas, is that they don't seem cheaply made at all, they require very little maintenance, and they last a very long time. My 1998 Corolla has 100k miles on it, and it still runs like new. Never had to have any major repairs done on it, despite having made multiple cross-country trips between New York and Colorado in it.

[nullterm]

My friend's wife has a 1985 Toyota Camry. He & his wife agreed to get a new car when the old one starts breaking down. But the thing refuses to die and still keeps running just fine. At this rate it'll be in service as long as the B-52 fleet.

[BadKarma26]

What are you basing that on? Total sales, build quality, range quantity, profitablility, a collection of all those factors? Just wondering.

quality, reliability, simplicity, marketing (lexus, toyota, scion), price, style, efficiency, low maintenence, and re-sale value

the fact that the bad guys and the good guys are using Tacomas in the Stan prooves my point.

I've got a 95 Tacoma 4x4 with 140,000 miles and I still take it off roading and have never ever had a problem from it.

[ViktorNavorski]

What are you basing that on? Total sales, build quality, range quantity, profitablility, a collection of all those factors? Just wondering.Not that I agree with the original statement (I'm partial to Honda myself, but that's due more to the racing history they have). Consumer Reports best and worst used cars list isn't the definitive standard, but it's a quick Google search that show why the brand is broadly considered to be reliable. The best and worst used cars (http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/best_and_worst_used_cars.html)


My personal experience, as well as that of most of the people I know who've owned Toyotas, is that they don't seem cheaply made at all, they require very little maintenance, and they last a very long time. My 1998 Corolla has 100k miles on it, and it still runs like new. Never had to have any major repairs done on it, despite having traveled multiple times between New York and Colorado in it.One exception, the Prius, sure, it's fancy hybrid and save you gas money, but the interior, cheaply made it is.

[Abolith]

What’s ironic is that the Japanese learned all aspects of the auto industry by studying the U.S. automakers and now we are studying their business model (hopefully before our automakers fold).

they ARE our auto makers now... "Jap" cars are made more in the US then the big three are these days.. just go by a dealership and check the manufacturing stickers on the windshields, I have seen toys and nissans as high as 85% US made... but the Ford dealership I worked with ..well average was 65%.

[CG51]

they ARE our auto makers now... "Jap" cars are made more in the US then the big three are these days.. just go by a dealership and check the manufacturing stickers on the windshields, I have seen toys and nissans as high as 85% US made... but the Ford dealership I worked with ..well average was 65%.

So where is the other 35% made, Mexico? :|

[ZoneOne]

they ARE our auto makers now... "Jap" cars are made more in the US then the big three are these days.. just go by a dealership and check the manufacturing stickers on the windshields, I have seen toys and nissans as high as 85% US made... but the Ford dealership I worked with ..well average was 65%.

So like I said in my post on the first page - 70-75% is required to claim a vehicle as "domestic"

These "domestic companies" aren't producing "domestic" vehicles. I know a few rednecks w/ "these colors don't run" stickers on their trucks that would be mighty upset if they did their homework.

[Angelino]

My 2006 Ford Mustang V6 has the engine made in Germany and the transmission made in France. She was assembled in Flatrock, MI though. Wonder if the process of assembling her here makes her a "domestic" car :)

[digrar]

I got this from an Australian car mag this month.


Yaris- Needs $750 pack to get good safety gear; engines buzzy and characterless; 4 speed auto clunky and indecisive; not as roomy as its best rivals; a good car, the Yaris, but not a great one.

Corolla- Engine outruns chassis in non sportivo models; flawed driving position; flawed ride; poor body control; highway engine noise; no steering reach adjustment; no centre rear lap sash seat belt in hatch.

Camry- Styling still lacks impact; steering a little dead at straight ahead; average interior quality; too bright centre console lighting; will inevitably be coveted by money conscious accountants.

Aurion- low speed ride lacks compliance; stability control can't be turned off and is calibrated very conservatively; rear seat set too low; exterior looks too much like a Camry from many angles.

PriusII- Still fairly bland to drive; still not exactly cheap; low speed ride harshness; artificial steering; takes a lot of fuel saving to pay the difference; performance not competitive at this price.

Avensis- Steering arrangement hardly clever; manual GLX has been canned; probably better off in a Kluger.

Tarago- Engine lacks torque and needs to be worked too hard for comfort.

Rav4- Did we really need a bigger SUV?Rear seat lacks under thigh support; non switchable ESP a pain in sand and occasionally on the road; bloated styling a caricature of Ravs former self.

Kluger- Dumpy styling; daggy cabin; pointless centre console hole; lack of grip from crap base tyres; non switchable stability control is far too intrusive; fake wood dash inlays are vomitous.

Prado- Construction and live rear axle far from cutting edge; size hampers it in the city ; separate chassis compromises crash safety; V6 thirsty; doesn't handle; sloppy body control.

Land Cruiser (wagon)- Not a sensible alternative to a car, though far too many will buy this for the school run. V8 is thirsty and not that quick; while diesel power saves fuel but a heavy premium over petrol models.



They make solid cars, mechanically very sound, their commercial vehicles (utes and vans) are top notch. But it's been a long time since I looked at one of their cars and thought "that looks alright". I don't think they are the best car manufacturer in the world.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Hmm

I've owned 3 LandCruisers

1974 Fj40

1988 LandCruiser Bundera

1992 80 Series LandCruiser

The 1st went through hell and back and by the time I traded up it was still going dam strong nearly 30 years later.

2nd one was the same. Although being the 1st coil sprung cruiser I did have some issues with the suspension bushels but put that down more to the punishment I gave it then actual reliablity and build quality

3rd despite having 275klm's on the clock has not missed a beat.

All in all considering how I treat the things. I can't complain with the cost of upkeep with them. Thirsty for fuel though. Even with the 4cyl Bundy. But I didn't buy them for economy.

Toyota make the best 4wd's on the market. Not to keen on the latest models but they still make awsome utes and Troopcarriers which are still 75 series Cruisers.

[Moledet]

If the Americans improve the overall safety of their vehicles (that includes active-safety, i.e. proper handling, ESP) and get rid of their crappy reputation after buying some crappy companies (like Daewoo) and manufacturings some of the worst cars in terms of driving and safety. They might be able to re-enter and compete in Europe.

[XShipRider]

If Toyota gets screwed by unions as the Big Three have God
help us, we'll lose them too.

Unions have outlived their usefulness in many industries. They stopped
ensuring "fair wages" many years ago, going for the jugular and ever-
increasing wages instead. This action literally helped drive inflation
at times.

Ford was a prime example oh so many years ago. They made a cool
$B in profit one year. That year they became the next "strike target"
(no surprise here). The union sought and got profit sharing. Many
will say this was the right thing to do. Unfortunately this was not a
one-time deal. It was instituted as a permanent clause in UAW
contracts for all auto companies. This was money destined and due
the shareholders. It was also money which could have been better
spent to shore up future retiree funds. Not to mention the money
which could have been used for future R&D. But unions only think
of the here and now as evidenced by the massive layoffs and buyouts
currently underway at the Big Three (I have quite a few uncles, brothers
and cousins pondering their futures after serving these companies
for 20-30 years).

GM wasn't called Generous Motors facetiously. It truly was generous,
too much so, for so long they shot themselves in the foot. The
same for Chrysler and Ford. Thank the unions.

Somewhere along the way they forgot that US autoworkers were
already the highest paid per hour in the global auto industry. They
also enjoyed more medical, dental and unemployment benefits than
any other carmaker on earth. And these wage and benefit packages
covered the UNSKILLED labor force, the bulk of auto workers, to
such a degree they're paying the price now.

All that said, people will think I'm against unions. I'm not. I'm against
unions which forget their original intent - to barter a fair wage for
a fair day's work and ensure a safe workplace.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Blame the unions again?

A union looks after it's workers and tries to get the best possible deal for them nothing more nothing less.

The fact of matter is the American auto makers have been making an inferior product to the Japanese. Combined with higher fuel costs saw the decline in sales in SUV's at the same time as the Japanese were making inroads into the American market.

If a company goes bad they only have themselves to blame for bad management. It is management who decide on cost structures, product design and placement, market strategy, and finance.

This is why the union movement is against globalisation in the way the so called experts and governments want it. Companies see globalisation as a means to lower "real wages"

I've got no problems with free trade between say the EU,US,Japan,South America (to a point), and Australia/NZ. Our wages, education and living standards are all comparable.

You put in the cost of labour in India/China/Malaysia combined with governments lowering tarriffs and it's very clear that globalisation/free trade is a gross failure and bad governance by both corporations and governments.

[vryhpyammoadded]

I buy foreign cars now because of every American car I’ve ever owned, built after 1971, has succumbed to engineered planned obsolescence about a month or three after the major warranty had terminated, literally falling apart in some cases.
I do not desire having a life long car loan payment nor do I desire dolling out thousands a year in replacing worn out widgets. Hell, I’ve got an old British sports car to cover that hobby.
The foreign cars I now own, accepting the spridget, cost me less to purchase, maintain and use. When US manufacturers can match them or do better for a similar product, I’ll consider them.

As for unions, I can go either way. I’ve been in a few and been against a few and pretty much think one should study them case by case. In my opinion, about any organization eventually turns into a racket requiring vicious, bloody purging of the riff raff periodically to invigorate new integrity.

[mi35d]

manufacturings some of the worst cars in terms of driving and safety

Could you give us some examples as compared to the always awesome offerings from Fiat, Renault and the likes of the Yugo and nearly every British car that ever had Lucas electronics?

[Happy]

GM, Ford, and Chrysler pay the medical bills and retirement for at least 5 million Americans, and that is a huge expense. GM is really a pension fund that makes cars on the side. I think it is about $2000 from every GM car that goes directly to a retirees medical payment. Without that expense, Toyota, Honda etc can spend a lot more on engineering, and less on medical, so obviously they have an advantage. That said, it is obvious that companies like Toyota are planning on the US taxpayer to provide the medical for their retirees, and not Toyota. It is a great deal for Toyota, but a bad deal for the taxpayer.

Ford was just like Toyota for 30 years, they treated their employees great, and they were nonunion. But Ford could not keep up that niceness during the entire Great Depression, and the Unions got in. If the union ever gets in at Toyota, I can bet that there would be changes.

Any way you look at it, the big three spend most of their money on Americans, and if they go broke, then the taxpayer will have to pay for those 5 million retirees that are presently the ward of the big three. Toyota and Honda can make cars cheaper, but the biggest reason is because they do nothing to support America like the big three do.

[Moledet]

manufacturings some of the worst cars in terms of driving and safety

Could you give us some examples as compared to the always awesome offerings from Fiat, Renault and the likes of the Yugo and nearly every British car that ever had Lucas electronics?
Chevrolet Optra, Aveo, Epica, and the rest of the Daewoo family. Especially the Aveo, it's the worse car in the world IMO, I don't understand how Chevrolet agreed to put their emblem on it. With 6 airbags it scored 1.5 stars in EURONCAP test and the worst ever front crush score. I've also driven it, good thing there was a yamulka in the gloves compartment since I prayed in every corner. And then there's the fuel consumption, 1:10 (1 liter per 10km), that's a lot for a 1.4L engine. In addition, the plastic is cheap and noisy, there's wind noise over 90kmh and the steering wheel starts shaking when it hits 100kmh and get very shaky and unstable at 120-130kmh. This car is not American engineering and isn't made in the US but Chevrolet chose to put their sign on it and by that they hurt their reputation.
Another example is the H2/H3, it's a good car offroad but in terms of safety it is seriously lacking, it has a 50% chance to flip over on the road according to American insurance agencies.

[mi35d]

the rest of the Daewoo family

Then its not really a Chevy engineered product, is it?

(Sort of like saying all Porches are crap because of the VW based 914.)

And I agree...Daewoo is pretty much crap.

[oldsoak]

Anyone ever owned a Toyota Troopie ?

[Moledet]

the rest of the Daewoo family

Then its not really a Chevy engineered product, is it?

(Sort of like saying all Porches are crap because of the VW based 914.)

And I agree...Daewoo is pretty much crap.
Ofcourse it's not, I said so, but Chevrolet puts their sign on it and sell it in Europe as an American car, this wrecks Chevrolet reputation.
I can tell you that there's no word about Daewoo in the brochure and the salesmen don't say a word about Daewoo either.

BTW, I've heard that your new minister of transportation is going to make things a bit tougher for the American manufacturers, they are going to make car safety tests a lot harder and compare them to EURONCAP level. From 2009 all American cars will need to have curtain airbags and from 2011 all cars will need to have ESP.

[Hollis]

Personally, I don't see a problem. Corporations, for good or bad, have been going international for a long time. There is a view that Peace through trade is effective. I guess if you owe someone a bunch of money, they are not going to blow you up.

British Motor companies have been involved in the Japanese companies for a long time. Mazda and Ford, Isuzu and Chevy.. Now Jaguar and Ford. Our world is just getting smaller in many ways, this is just another indicator of it.

The USA is a big mixture of people and cultures, not saying they don't rub each other in a bad way once in a while, but most tend to live together OK. So can the world do it. Look at the EU, two hundred years ago the EU would have been a "pipe" dream.

Some unions are falling apart some unions are forming. The unions that are falling apart where those held by force.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Blame the unions again?

A union looks after it's workers and tries to get the best possible deal for them nothing more nothing less.

The fact of matter is the American auto makers have been making an inferior product to the Japanese. Combined with higher fuel costs saw the decline in sales in SUV's at the same time as the Japanese were making inroads into the American market.

I won't argue that Japanese quality is still better...but you must ask yourself why it's better. There is a reason. I maintain it's better because they have more money to spend on it. They can afford more employees, better parts, more thorough engineering, because their costs are billions less because they don't have to pay extortionist union wages.



If a company goes bad they only have themselves to blame for bad management. It is management who decide on cost structures, product design and placement, market strategy, and finance.

You just said that the function of a union is to get better wages and bennies....where do you think that money comes from? Every dollar that unions cost the company is a dollar that comes out of some department's budget.

Consider a Toyota car and a GM car, both competing in the same segment, say around $17,000. They both cost the same, offer the same features, performance etc. They are both made in the US. The materials used to make them cost the same. The Toyota, due to far lower labor costs, will either yield the maker more profits, or, Toyota could choose to make the same profit that GM does, but spend the difference on higher quality materials, more R&D, more time-consuming build processes to put it together better. There is no mystery here, the non-union companies have a huge advantage, and can spend far more on product, which in the end is what counts.



This is why the union movement is against globalisation in the way the so called experts and governments want it. Companies see globalisation as a means to lower "real wages"

I've got no problems with free trade between say the EU,US,Japan,South America (to a point), and Australia/NZ. Our wages, education and living standards are all comparable.

You put in the cost of labour in India/China/Malaysia combined with governments lowering tarriffs and it's very clear that globalisation/free trade is a gross failure and bad governance by both corporations and governments.

I completely agree with you here. The system can work, so long as labor is all in the same bucket. By that I mean that we all compete in a world where there are comparable environmental, safety, labor laws.

[VansRV]

That said, it is obvious that companies like Toyota are planning on the US taxpayer to provide the medical for their retirees, and not Toyota. It is a great deal for Toyota, but a bad deal for the taxpayer.
Thats because that is the way it is done in Japan, they have a national pension system. Also American Toyota autowokers are not unionized but Japanese Toyota autoworkers are. They take better care of their own.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

All of Australia's auto workers are unionised to. With the exception of Mitsibushi they are all doing alright.

The parts business business is suffering because of competition from China though.

[Seiyuuki]

Toyota proves union-resistant
After latest Ky. attempt, UAW is sent packing
By Brett Clanton
The Detroit News

GEORGETOWN, Ky. - Milt Sizemore has had enough of the United Auto Workers union. He's tired of the annual recruiting drives and all of the promises that come with them. Like hundreds of other workers at Toyota Motor Corp.'s massive factory here, he just wants to do his job and go home.

He may get his wish.

Late last month, national UAW organizers pulled out of town after yet another failed recruiting drive.

For nearly two decades, the UAW has been trying to win the right to represent workers at Toyota's Georgetown plant. And for nearly two decades, a majority of them have said, "No, thank you.''

It's a critical setback for the UAW, which has endured steep membership declines since the 1980s and needs to gain a foothold in new auto plants in the South to replenish its ranks.

The defeat in Georgetown also threatens to further erode the power and influence of America's largest industrial union, putting it at risk of becoming irrelevant to a new generation of U.S. auto workers.

"Our company has issues and problems like any other place,'' said Sizemore, 39, who works in production control for Toyota. "But I don't feel like the UAW is going to do any better for us.''

Nonunion auto plants in the South, mainly run by foreign automakers, have been careful to pay workers as well or better than workers in Midwest union factories run by Detroit's Big Three.

Toyota, which has its North American manufacturing headquarters in Erlanger, and other foreign makers with Southern factories, have been capturing a growing portion of U.S. auto sales.

General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group, fighting to stay competitive, have been looking for ways to cut soaring health care and pension costs.

Pro-union forces in Georgetown warn that the fortunes of the foreign automakers could turn overnight, leaving workers vulnerable to pay cuts or layoffs.

The arguments have yet to gain traction with most Toyota workers.

National UAW representatives abandoned their headquarters in a Georgetown hotel last month after only 37 percent of workers signed cards supporting UAW representation during a recruiting drive that began in November.

If the union collects cards from more than 50 percent of workers, it can hold what's called a "card check'' election and demand recognition from the National Labor Relations Board as the official bargaining agent for the workers.

Pro-union workers at Toyota say they will continue the organizing drive, noting that signed cards remain valid through this November. And they insist the UAW is still involved in the campaign.

"We're not on our own,'' said Gene Toler, a production worker at Toyota who is a member of the voluntary organizing committee, a pro-union group. "We're in constant communication with the national office.''

The pro-union forces have their work cut out for them.

An organized opposition movement emerged this year at Toyota. Calling themselves the "Truth Finders,'' the group has a Web site and monthly newsletter.

"This is really like a second job,'' said Marvin Robbins, 35, a founding member of Truth Finders and five-year veteran of Toyota's assembly shop.

Truth Finders' main mission is to remind workers at Toyota how good they have it.
How many other plants have a 24-hour day care, discount pharmacy and a credit union onsite?

Truth Finders also tries to clear up misconceptions about worker pay, which - at $24 an hour for most employees - is less than the hourly rates in most unionized plants in the Midwest.

But when benefits and biannual bonus payouts are added, Toyota's compensation package is the second highest in the country, trailing only DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz plant in Vance, Ala., according to Truth Finders.

"People like to complain about their jobs,'' said Daisy Lowe, 37, a 14-year veteran of Toyota. "But nobody quits.''

Link... (http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/05/18/biz_biz1toy.html)

[ViktorNavorski]

Thats because that is the way it is done in Japan, they have a national pension system. Also American Toyota autowokers are not unionized but Japanese Toyota autoworkers are. They take better care of their own.And it's called Social Security in the U.S. and it's not Toyota fault the system is completely mess up.

[AK74]

Truth Finders' main mission is to remind workers at Toyota how good they have it.
How many other plants have a 24-hour day care, discount pharmacy and a credit union onsite?


unions vs benefits, i'll take the latter. ^^

[Thor]

quality, reliability, simplicity, marketing (lexus, toyota, scion), price, style, efficiency, low maintenence, and re-sale value
Great cars, except for the fact that you will become a hearing-impaired person from riding in a Toyota.

Lexus excluded

[plato]

And it's called Social Security in the U.S. and it's not Toyota fault the system is completely mess up.
don't forget the health care system, too. They don't need to pay huge health care costs for workers. They have univsersal health care.

[ViktorNavorski]

don't forget the health care system, too. They don't need to pay huge health care costs for workers. They have univsersal health care.Medicare/Medicaid, just one of several examples. The U.S. government spends twice as much as other developed countries on health care, approximately $7,129 per capita. Unfortunately, the bureaucracy alone consume one-third of that cost. Another example of a system that desperately need fixing, but instead, all any politicians is intered in is selling rhetorics to the masses about reinventing the freaking wheel instead of fixing it.

[plato]

Medicare/Medicaid, just one of several examples. The U.S. government spends twice as much as other developed countries on health care, approximately $7,129 per capita. Unfortunately, the bureaucracy alone consume one-third of that cost. Another example of a system that desperately need fixing, but instead, all any politicians is intered in is selling rhetorics to the masses about reinventing the freaking wheel instead of fixing it.

Japan spends about $4000 per capita, and the quality of care is better than US. They get more for less money.

[plato]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/bufanler/blog/cost_longlife75.gif

[ViktorNavorski]

Japan spends about $4000 per capita, and the quality of care is better than US. They get more for less money.Yes, so it's not Toyota and Japan fault the U.S. health care system has been messed up for a while now.

[Kaapeli]

Does anyone here have actual statistics on wages in different car factories or are you all just speculating? For example 2Sheds here has an entire economical model built there based on what exactly?

[helomech]

I hope Toyota does good on their latest venture;you can't argue the fact they make a good prduct whether it be car,truck,minivan or SUV.

The whole thing with the union is too bad for those who want one.I think they've outlived their usefulness.Where is the union when they tell you to strike and the union wages they pay you can't pay your bills?I have not ever joined a union nor will I.

[plato]

Does anyone here have actual statistics on wages in different car factories or are you all just speculating? For example 2Sheds here has an entire economical model built there based on what exactly?
I don't have any statistics on wages of auto workers in Japan or US. But, I am guessing it should be about the same as American wages if not more, becasue wealth seems to be more evenly distributed in Japan than in US.

Japan is the 2nd largest economy, but there are no Japanese in the top 100 richest people list, and there are only 15 Japanese in the top 500 richest list. Compare to US, there are 39 Americans in the top 100, and 203 Americans in the top 500 list. Also, let us compare Japanese with German, there are 14 Germans in the top 100, and 43 Germans in the top 500.

Also consider this: I heard on public radio that the main goal of Japanese car makers is to satisfy car buyers, while it is to satisfy shockholders and investors for American car makers. I am not sure how much truth is there to this statement by the expert. But, I do know that Toyota made $9.2 billion profits while all top three American car makers only made $4.5 billion profits combined. Something is terribly wrong with American car makers, I don't think union is the main problem.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/Citizenship_9.html

[ViktorNavorski]

I don't think union is the main problem.It is one of the main problems.

[mudbunny]

I applaud what toyota is doing, I simply pray that when they start out on the advertising path that they don't pick some artificial/cheesy/horrible John Melloncamp song for their commercials.

[CG51]

Looking at this chart, we need to lean Cuba's secret.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/bufanler/blog/cost_longlife75.gif

[annihilation]

Unions only plays a small part of the overall downfall of American car companies. Poor management, poor car design, poor quality, stock investors (in this day in age, the stock market wants a quick fix to bring the stock up another dollar, in the short term its great but in the long term it is questionable) also plays a role in the downfall. When there is a recall for a ford car, its not because it was assembled poorly but it was designed poorly with the wrong part.

I will agree the age of unions in America is on it downfall. There isn't that much need in the US anymore but I can not say that for the rest of the world, where labor laws and safety is that of what it was in the US in the first decade of the 1900's.

[plato]

Why would anyone join the union if your health care is covered by the government? or, if your CEO doesn't get $210 million severance package after screwing up the company?

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/01/04/embattled_home_depot_ceo_resigns/

I am interested to see how much they actually pay the Japanese workers.

[Horizon]

I'm not an expert at American cars but for me it is one of the very features of America, a part of its legend, beautiful as visiting the U.S just to see them, I guess movies helped a lot about promoting them.

I don't consider Japanese cars as cars but rather domestic appliances having the same capabilities as cars.Japanese cars have no soul at all, and you can hardly know the model when viewing one.Now you're free to buy one, but remember it is at the expense of your economy and sadly we know the consequences since the last twenty years of "global economy", and nightmare for too many.

In the West our governments have chose the very high profits on short terms by deciding to open wide their markets to Asia investments while Asia constricting their market regulations.Our patents have been robbed when not sold for so called new global market, then it was the problem of wages, suddenly our workers were too costly another trick to relocate business abroad.


The future of American cars is the will to produce them in the U.S with citizens buying it as a kind of patriotic act, the same apply in E.U, and if someone argues that is a stupid idea, one could ask how many American or European cars are exported to Asia...

Riding in a Japanese car is riding with Osama Ben Laden!

[plato]

Riding in a Japanese car is riding with Osama Ben Laden!

You can do better than that! Osama Ben Laden? What is your major malfunction? I guess the Japanese are helping Ben Laden in Iraq.

[Durandal]

Unions are like a two edge sword. They have increased wages and benefits (as in medical) and made safer work areas. But it’s the pensions that are killing the automakers here in the U.S.

Only because the auto companies did not keep a locked pension fund. Like most companies and the U.S. government (as in Social Security) these funds have been (usually) part of a general fund and for use for things other than pensions.

Earning interest alone these funds and the pensions that were paid into them should have become self funding to a certain point years ago, but that is in fact, not what happened.

People cry about pensions, but ultimately American greed and ignorance are the culprits.

[Moledet]

And another blow to American car companies reputation, Chrysler is going to manufacture cars in China through a Chinese crappy cars company called Cherry. The cars will be sold under the name of Dodge.

[annihilation]

And another blow to American car companies reputation, Chrysler is going to manufacture cars in China through a Chinese crappy cars company called Cherry. The cars will be sold under the name of Dodge.


Well then I wont be buying a dodge and I always wanted the ram truck too. Have to love clinton for this one....

[plato]

Have to love clinton for this one....
CCP loves Bush more than Clinton. But, the Chinese people love Clinton more than Bush. So, I am not so sure who to love for this one, yet.

[tuercas]

And another blow to American car companies reputation, Chrysler is going to manufacture cars in China through a Chinese crappy cars company called Cherry. The cars will be sold under the name of Dodge.
so dodge is going chinese now, guess the made in india Atos was not cheap enough.
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q124/elguaje/gifs/96a8044f.jpg

[annihilation]

I heard some american business man trying to strike a deal with a chinese car firm to ship cars to america made in China. He said that they would go for around 9k to 11k. God damn cheap but then again when you pay your workers 1 dollar an hour you can do that.

[Durandal]

I heard some american business man trying to strike a deal with a chinese car firm to ship cars to america made in China. He said that they would go for around 9k to 11k. God damn cheap but then again when you pay your workers 1 dollar an hour you can do that.

Actually, 9 to 11K is NOT cheap considering how cheap they actually are. I expect under 10K for them...

Then again, till they get their safety issues together no CHinese cars will be imported or made here.

[Thor]

Actually, 9 to 11K is NOT cheap considering how cheap they actually are. I expect under 10K for them...

Then again, till they get their safety issues together no CHinese cars will be imported or made here.
Actually, I just read that the chinsese just had a little breakthrough on the european market... One manufacturer for the first time managed to meet emission and safety standards (four stars in EuroNCAP), so expect them in large scale soon.

[plato]

Actually, I just read that the chinsese just had a little breakthrough on the european market... One manufacturer for the first time managed to meet emission and safety standards (four stars in EuroNCAP), so expect them in large scale soon.
It's funny how this thread became about Chinese cars instead. Anyway, can you show us where did you read this news? Thanks

[Thor]

It's funny how this thread became about Chinese cars instead. Anyway, can you show us where did you read this news? Thanks
http://english.cri.cn/2946/2006/09/05/191@135076.htm

[Seiyuuki]

Thanks to 2Sheds for these articles...

Made in America? Hard to tell (http://www.boston.com/cars/news/articles/2006/09/24/made_in_america_hard_to_tell/)
Toyota, Honda Strain to Build More as U.S. Sales Rise (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&refer=japan&sid=aSymzae0tuc4)
The Cars.com American Made Index (http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=more&story=amMade&referer=&aff=national)

[Durandal]

http://english.cri.cn/2946/2006/09/05/191@135076.htm

Sounds there was a lot of German and Japanese auto help there...

I would hardly call 500 cars to Italy as the same as selling to million s of Americans (the point I made).

[AK74]

manufacturings some of the worst cars in terms of driving and safety

Could you give us some examples as compared to the always awesome offerings from Fiat, Renault and the likes of the Yugo and nearly every British car that ever had Lucas electronics?

Jeremy Clarkson's Ford GT?

[Thor]

Sounds there was a lot of German and Japanese auto help there...

I would hardly call 500 cars to Italy as the same as selling to million s of Americans (the point I made).
I'm not aware of that discussion.

But getting an approval to sell cars in the EU is a huge step. As a consumer I welcome the competition.

[Angrykirill]

I'm not aware of that discussion.

But getting an approval to sell cars in the EU is a huge step. As a consumer I welcome the competition.

They are well on the way, I remember seeing an article about a Russian reporter wrote after his visit to the Chery factory, they are getting all the new western production equipment + they have foreign companies such as Italdesign and STEYR to design/construct the vehicles. It reminds me of the birth of the Japanese automobile industry

[Seiyuuki]

Jeremy Clarkson's Ford GT?I remember that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/CNpbTKueKFE

[plato]

China's double-digit economic growth has created a burgeoning market for cars, fast food and other consumer goods. The country overtook Japan last year to become the world's second-biggest vehicle market after the U.S., with 7.2 million cars sold, a 37 percent growth.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070119/ap_on_bi_ge/china_mcdonald_s