Do French bid for Turkish satellite, or don't they?

[Clearday-TRForce]

How about one-third are French bidders?

Burak Bekdil
ANKARA - Turkish Daily News


They don't, according to the Turkish press. A flurry of news stories in recent weeks happily told the Turkish audience that French satellite makers had been denied entry into the competition for the building and launching of Turkey's first military satellite in retaliation for French Parliament's resolution that criminalized the denial of Armenian genocide last year.

French satellite makers won't bid for the Turkish competition, according to the official list of bidders for the $200 million plus contract. According to that list, the bidders are: EADS Astrium, Britain; IAI, Israel; OHB-System, Germany; and Telespazio, Italy. So, no Frenchmen in Ankara chasing the deal? Not really.

Two of the four bidders are “one-third” French. EADS Astrium is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Europe's defense giant EADS. And EADS is owned 29.98 percent by French SOGEADE Lagardere and the French government, which together with Daimler Chrysler makes two of EADS' core shareholders.

“Italian” Telespazio is owned 67 percent by Italy's defense conglomerate Finmeccanica. The remaining 33 percent shares are under the disposition of Alcatel, the French satellite maker.

Last year, the Turkish General Staff repeatedly said that “all defense cooperation with France, including procurement programs, would be suspended” in retaliation for the genocide bill. So, no contracts to French weapons systems manufacturers? How about half, one-third or a quarter of French suppliers? Well, the General Staff did not say anything as regards to mixed-race companies.

All the same, simple logic tells that if the General Staff were so offended by the French parliamentary move as to freeze all defense ties with France, including procurement, the boycott should cover anything French, wholly, half, or one-third. Otherwise that would mean that the General Staff had actually got offended by the French genocide bill only by “half or one-third.”

In 2000, Alcatel had almost won the Turkish satellite contract after it managed to sign a preliminary deal. But in January 2001, the French parliament passed a resolution that recognized the Armenian genocide, and, in retaliation, Turkey scrapped the contract. Six years later, the Frenchmen are still chasing the same contract, this time under the shadow of an even more bitter parliamentary resolution but disguised as “Europeans,” not Frenchmen.

It will be up to the General Staff (and the Foreign Ministry) to view them as Frenchmen or Europeans when the time comes to decide which company should build Turkey's first military satellite. If the General Staff should think even “one-third are French,” the contract will narrow down to a German-Israeli competition. But not necessarily.

Two U.S. manufacturers, Lockheed Martin and Ball Aerospace, which did not bid as they failed to meet the contractual terms and conditions, are waiting for the right moment to offer solutions outside the competition, i.e., direct sale through the U.S. Foreign Military Sales (FMS) scheme.



The contract:

The original Request for Information (RfI) described the satellite program in three components:

* The Satellite: A very high-resolution, electro-optical reconnaissance and surveillance imaging satellite

* The System: The Satellite and ground systems

* The Project: The system, launch and early orbit operational services, integrated logistics support, technological transfer, localization, co-development and co-usage of the system and other necessary systems and services.

The program involves the development of an electro-optical reconnaissance and surveillance satellite system for the Turkish Air Force's space-based image intelligence architecture. Here, the architecture comprises of passive and active remote sensing satellite systems such as electro-optical and Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) systems and ground systems.

The program aims to provide modern and effective means of monitoring the land and littoral waters surrounding Turkey, establish a national database and improve industrial capability in space technology with special emphasis on remote sensing satellites.

Under the RfI, the mission requirements include geometric resolution better than 1-meter for panchromatic imagery; scale mapping and digital elevation model; assuming 4-meters for panchromatic imagery; scale mapping and digital elevation model; and, assuming 40 percent cloud factor and collecting at least 5,000 effective images a year.




regards,
CDTRF

[alfigel]

Wow. What an adult reaction.

[Bitogno]

Well now mono-country firms are no very common.

[AROUETLJ]

Yesm but who will launch the satellite? I mean which rocket and site are they using? At the end of the day none of the companies mentioned owns its own launching site.

[alfigel]

Yesm but who will launch the satellite? I mean which rocket and site are they using? At the end of the day none of the companies mentioned owns its own launching site.

My bet is that this task will be handed over to the Russians. They are the most reasonably-priced ones. Even the Germans went to the Russians to shoot up their first own recon satellite, even though they have their own launch system (Ariane 5).

[AROUETLJ]

My bet is that this task will be handed over to the Russians. They are the most reasonably-priced ones. Even the Germans went to the Russians to shoot up their first own recon satellite, even though they have their own launch system (Ariane 5).

Er, Ariane 5 is French.

[alfigel]

Er, Ariane 5 is French.

No, Ariane 5 is multi-national, i.e. ESA, of which Germany is a member state.

[Olybrius]

Arianespace

France: 60 %
Germany: 18,5%
others countries :21.5 %

http://www.arianespace.com/site/fr/infos/actionnaires_sub_index.html

[eugenlitwin]

regards,
CDTRF

Your point is ”do´t fu&k with us”? but I bet many in France and at list in 23 countries, would disagree with you

[Scourge]

In France nobody cares about Turkey, believe me ! French people as Europe don't want Turkey in EU, that's all.

[tooms]

It's your problem if there will be no real competition.

[Mahir]

In France nobody cares about Turkey, believe me ! French people as Europe don't want Turkey in EU, that's all.

O'rly ?
/cry

[Loki77]

In France nobody cares about Turkey, believe me ! French people as Europe don't want Turkey in EU, that's all.

...Yes in one point, but France as Europe want only businesses with Turkey...

[juliuspret]

O'rly ?
/cry

I hate to shock you but by 2050 if Turkey is in the EU it will be a miracle!

Personially I dont think there is a single member state of the EU which has even 25% of its population in favour of accepting Turkey!

[Clearday-TRForce]

In France nobody cares about Turkey, believe me ! French people as Europe don't want Turkey in EU, that's all.



Turkey too...nobody cares Frenchs...

[0verbyte]

i am american born and raised, but my heritage is turkish.

i am shocked by the amount of racist attitudes i see from alot of the european posters in regards to Turks and the Turkish Republic. i understand that Greeks and Armenians have grievences with the Turkish nation as do the Turks with the Greeks and Armenians.

but what is up with all these Scandinavian, French, German, Austrian, Dutch, Belgian and British posters.

Europeans like to view themselves are more enlightened and humanistic compared to us Americans, but this whole issue with Turkey joining the EU has sure evaporated this bull**** image of theirs.

it is disgusting.

would these people prefer to have Turkey aligned with Russian, or American, or even a dystopia situation where Turkey would actually have a co-dependent relationship with its Arab and Persian neighbors.


If Turkey truly doesn't have a realistic chance at joining the EU, then this whole farce should just end. because all that these political outbursts among EU politicians and Turkish politicians is generating so much animosity.

i am not saying that one day Europeans and Turks will be enemies, but certaintly not friends either the longer this **** goes on.

[Clearday-TRForce]

i am american born and raised, but my heritage is turkish.

i am shocked by the amount of racist attitudes i see from alot of the european posters in regards to Turks and the Turkish Republic. i understand that Greeks and Armenians have grievences with the Turkish nation as do the Turks with the Greeks and Armenians.

but what is up with all these Scandinavian, French, German, Austrian, Dutch, Belgian and British posters.

Europeans like to view themselves are more enlightened and humanistic compared to us Americans, but this whole issue with Turkey joining the EU has sure evaporated this bull**** image of theirs.

it is disgusting.

would these people prefer to have Turkey aligned with Russian, or American, or even a dystopia situation where Turkey would actually have a co-dependent relationship with its Arab and Persian neighbors.


If Turkey truly doesn't have a realistic chance at joining the EU, then this whole farce should just end. because all that these political outbursts among EU politicians and Turkish politicians is generating so much animosity.

i am not saying that one day Europeans and Turks will be enemies, but certaintly not friends either the longer this **** goes on.


:roll: ,yeah you deadly right...I am very suprised to see them in this level against Turks...It must be teached in schools in europe...but why? we have no bad feelings against USA or Europeans. But I have seen many bad posts,ugly statements from them. For what? nobody teaches us to stay racist against europeans...but As you see,this story is very different amongthem.

[Mahir]

I hate to shock you but by 2050 if Turkey is in the EU it will be a miracle!

Personially I dont think there is a single member state of the EU which has even 25% of its population in favour of accepting Turkey!

:cantbeli:

[eugenlitwin]

Turkey too...nobody cares Frenchs...

It is not true, in EU France is decisive county, EU is main point of Turkish foreign policy politic in 30 years and 30 forward

[Ergnkon]

EU is main point of Turkish foreign policy politic in 30 years and 30 forward

Totally false and not related with the reality in Turkey.

Most of the Turks don't care about the EU any longer and their numbers are rapidly raising. :)

Support for EU plunges in Turkey, survey says

Friday, July 7, 2006

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News


Public support for Turkey's bid to join the European Union plunged over a six-month period that ended at the beginning of May, according to an EU survey released yesterday.

The Eurobarometer poll of just over 1,000 people in Turkey conducted through April found that the percentage of respondents “with a positive image of the EU” dove to 43 percent from 60 percent six months earlier, the poll showed.

“The spring 2006 survey shows a significant negative development in opinion in Turkey,” the poll said, without giving specific reasons for the drop.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=48212

More than two thirds of Turks oppose ceding to EU on Cyprus: poll

ANKARA - More than two thirds of Turks say membership talks with the European Union should be suspended if the bloc maintains demands for Ankara to give ground in a trade row over Cyprus, a poll released Tuesday showed.

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=150338

[Canadian2urk]

It is not true, in EU France is decisive county, EU is main point of Turkish foreign policy politic in 30 years and 30 forward


what the **** do you mean "it is not true"?

when was the last time you were in Turkiye to know what Turks thought about the French?:roll: troll...

[eugenlitwin]

what the **** do you mean "it is not true"?

when was the last time you were in Turkiye to know what Turks thought about the French?:roll: troll...

When last time you have been on Mars planet? How could you know that it is pretty chilly place…

PS
And everyone in EU know about greatest sacred Turkish dream (in city Dresden) , your guys never told it to foreigners, it is only for inner circle, anyway everyone here knows it, that is why your guys make world record - 30 years on the line…

[roland]

i am american born and raised, but my heritage is turkish.

i am shocked by the amount of racist attitudes i see from alot of the european posters in regards to Turks and the Turkish Republic. i understand that Greeks and Armenians have grievences with the Turkish nation as do the Turks with the Greeks and Armenians.

but what is up with all these Scandinavian, French, German, Austrian, Dutch, Belgian and British posters.

Europeans like to view themselves are more enlightened and humanistic compared to us Americans, but this whole issue with Turkey joining the EU has sure evaporated this bull**** image of theirs.

it is disgusting.

would these people prefer to have Turkey aligned with Russian, or American, or even a dystopia situation where Turkey would actually have a co-dependent relationship with its Arab and Persian neighbors.


If Turkey truly doesn't have a realistic chance at joining the EU, then this whole farce should just end. because all that these political outbursts among EU politicians and Turkish politicians is generating so much animosity.

i am not saying that one day Europeans and Turks will be enemies, but certaintly not friends either the longer this **** goes on.

May be you saw some racism on forums but all in all I don't think there is much racism againt Turks. At least in France.
If we don't want Turkey in the EU it's not because of racism but rather simple interest: Turkey is simply too big, numerous, poor and powerfull, to make it worse with a superpower mentality. I don't see why France would let enter a competitor while it's so easy to keep it out.

Now the interest of everybody is to have good relations and do good business each other and I don't see how Turkish unfriendly attitude could help her in anything (we got used enough with drama with the americananglos, be sure Turkish hysteria doesn't impress anybody here).

[Canadian2urk]

@Overbyte

judging by your first post on MP.net, i can tell you seem pretty offended by members on this forum. no worries, i'm a Canadian born an raised Turk an my first post on this forum was pretty similiar to your first post. I was also shocked/disgusted after reading some posts on here, i was just tempted to join.:)

Maybe the more Turks that join this Forum, the more people will keep their ignorance to themselves fearing to get ridiculed.

enjoy your stay.p-)

[Canadian2urk]

And everyone in EU know about greatest sacred Turkish dream (in city Dresden) , your guys never told it to foreigners, it is only for inner circle, anyway everyone here knows it, that is why your guys make world record - 30 years on the line…


huh? is this another one of your conspiracies?

were you thought this in school?? I think CDTRF was right...rofl

[Loki77]

And everyone in EU know about greatest sacred Turkish dream (in city Dresden) , your guys never told it to foreigners, it is only for inner circle, anyway everyone here knows it, that is why your guys make world record - 30 years on the line…
Explain me.. I'm curious about this comment...

[turan8]

Yeah we need more Turks on this forum, if you guys have any friends tell them...We always get ganged up on here cause its mostly yunan and ermeni sympathizers here

[Bert]

Turkey too...nobody cares Frenchs...

You can't counter such a statement with a counter-statement. You see, France is a founding member of the EU, while your country desires membership in the EU. If they don't care about you, your plans are ****ed. If you don't care about them, there won't exactly be a storm. It's like trying to spit back at someone who has the wind in their back.

[Loki77]

Posted by 0verbyte http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2227769#post2227769)would these people prefer to have Turkey aligned with Russian, or American, or even a dystopia situation where Turkey would actually have a co-dependent relationship with its Arab and Persian neighbors.
...Turkey is in Asia, and as such should not be admitted to the European Union...

....Turkey is not ethnically, religiously or economically European. Turkey has a population of 72 millions, which would make it the second largest (after Germany) in the EU, and equal to the combined population of the 15 smaller countries in the EU.

...That's the point. It's too big and too different, so it'd have too much weight and would radically unbalance the EU at all levels...

[Vorian]

Yeah we need more Turks on this forum, if you guys have any friends tell them...We always get ganged up on here cause its mostly yunan and ermeni sympathizers here

Lol. I don't know about greek, but are you refering to those that accept the Armenian Genocide as "armenian sympathisers"? If tha's so, then Armenia has many friends indeed.

[Ergnkon]

Most Turks don't favor EU membership already and their numbers getting greater with each day. At the end of this year, the current (pro-EU gov't) will go and and the elected new gov't will officially put an end to this madness.

Turkey's place is not in the EU.

[Canadian2urk]

...Turkey is in Asia, and as such should not be admitted to the European Union...

Agreed.

Cyprus is not in Europe, why did they get membership?

it makes it seem soooooo obvious they (Germany, France) let Cyprus into EU just for the sole purpose of putting even more obstacles in the way of Turkiye.

just like you mentioned, the EU powers do not want competition.



....Turkey is not ethnically, religiously or economically European. Turkey has a population of 72 millions, which would make it the second largest (after Germany) in the EU, and equal to the combined population of the 15 smaller countries in the EU.

Ethnically? maybe not.
Religion? no, because supposedly religion does not matter for accession.
Economically? :cantbeli: last year, 52% of exports and 42% of imports were with EU in Turkey.(wiki)



...That's the point. It's too big and too different, so it'd have too much weight and would radically unbalance the EU at all levels...

i'm surprised you didnt use the cheap Cyprus excuse. :)

so in other words, Germany/France are afraid of Turkiye's potential IF they were join...

[Loki77]

Agreed.

Cyprus is not in Europe, why did they get membership?

Cyprus is 77% greek(european)


Ethnically? maybe not.
Religion? no, because supposedly religion does not matter for accession.
Economically? :cantbeli: last year, 52% of exports and 42% of imports were with EU.(wiki)

...The Turks began to arrive in Anatolia in the 11th century, and like most conquerers, killed or enslaved or absorbed or displaced the previous population.
...Currently over 80% of the population of Turkey is ethnic Turks. About 99% of the population is Muslim.

...Turkey is not ethnically, religiously or economically European.



i'm surprised you didnt use the cheap Cyprus excuse. :)

so in other words, Germany/France are afraid of Turkiye's potential IF they were join..
Realpolitik....p-)

[Bert]

Agreed.

Cyprus is not in Europe, why did they get membership?

it makes it seem soooooo obvious they (Germany, France) let Cyprus into EU just for the sole purpose of putting even more obstacles in the way of Turkiye.

just like you mentioned, the EU powers do not want competition.



Ethnically? maybe not.
Religion? no, because supposedly religion does not matter for accession.
Economically? :cantbeli: last year, 52% of exports and 42% of imports were with EU.(wiki)



i'm surprised you didnt use the cheap Cyprus excuse. :)

so in other words, Germany/France are afraid of Turkiye's potential IF they were join...

Not so much Turkey's potential as much as 72 million muslims being elected into the EU parliament and the same 72 million muslims exercising their newfound Four Freedoms, which I must admit is scary.

[0verbyte]

1. To All Posters: I am an American above all, I am turkish with a lower case t.

2. To The Turkish Posters: I think its hysterical that some of the turkish posters here feel that they are being ganged up on. Guys its just a messageboard. and it doesnt matter if one turkish poster posts it or 20 Turkish Posters post the same thing. Its just childish. Grow a thicker skin.

3. To The French Poster: The Turkish government does not have delusions of being a superpower. A regional power certainly. Perhaps the French feel threatened because they still have an inflated view of French Hegemony. Monsieurs, France is only relevant in the Franco-phone countries, and even then the American's are considerably involved. Lebanon, West Africa, South East Asia...

4. To Loki - What difference does it make when the Turks have settled in Europe. If you are concerned with the historical aspects of Turkish existance then it is just a moot point. All Humans, can pretty much trace thier ancestry to Eastern Africa if you go far enough. The fact that Turks have been in contact with western cultures since the 11th century. is enough. was there some sort of application period for European-ness that we missed by a century or so. Its rediculous. the fact is Turkish Civilizations have been heavily involved in the shaping of Europe, just as much as Russia, France, England, the Holy Roman Empire. etc. etc. etc

5. Furthermore Ragnorak: your statements of the notion that Turkey's economy, religion and ethnicity make them uneuropean? That is just inflammatory and racist. what exactly is a European economy. Last i check Turkey is a capitalist nation with a free-market, is that un-European.

In terms of ethnicity, The Ottoman Empire expanded through war, (as did every other midieval civizliation. ethnically pure turks numbered few in the very beginning. Even though Turkey is populated by 80% ethnic turks, realize that there is literraly a 1000 years of people intermarrying and mixing. The modern Turk is the progeny of a milleniu of mixing of hellenic, slavic, byzantine, hittie, lydian, illyrian, arabic, georigian etc. Anatolia is the crossroads of the ancient world. people have been screwing for a long time on the peninusla.

Religion, now this is borderline racist. What is European religion then? Christianity? more specifically is it Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Protestant, or more likey whatever religion you aspire to. maybe its the druids, or the greek gods, or the roman gods, or maybe the norse gods? honetly what claim do Europeans have over religion? and last i checked there is no state sanctioned religion in the Turkish Republic. Remember Ataturk and all that?

6. The other more politically correct version as to why Turkey should be allowed into europe is also interesting. Turkey is toooooooooo Big, toooooo poor, tooooo many human rights abuses. according to Rand McNally Turkey is on Asia Minor, thus its Asian Right?

well, then how do you explain Bulgaria and Hungary? these are poor countries, agree? Poland is pretty large, agree? hell there are talks about russia joining. furthermore, human rights? pretty convenient that France is pushing the Armenian issue, especially with the large population of Armenian voters in France. and dont get me started on human rights, in the last 15 years, human rights abuses have been commited by... drumroll please. every freaking balkan nation, (good to see that even Serbia is a possible candidate for the EU), Italian peacekeepers in the UN mission in Somalia. Russia in the Caucus, Armenians and Azeri's in Nagorno-Karbah. it can go on and on. interesting Armenia which is well outside of Europe is part of the copenhagen criteria. yada yada yada

7. Human Rights: furthermore, i accept that fact that a ****load of armenians died in ww1, I cannot say if it was managed by a state apparatus, but yes there were alot of dead armenians. so. moving on. guess what the ottomans killed them yes. the The government of the Turkish Republic order it, No. why, because the Turkish Republic did not exist until 1923.

now, if the Turkish Republic was to admit guilt (never will happen) i wonder will the United Kingdom accept its warcrimes in the Boer War (thanks for inventing the Concentration Camp guys, those Afrikaaner women and children had it coming to them). and the French pay reparations to Algerians, etc. etc. etc. you know what I am getting at. why is something that happened almost a hundred years ago affect policy in 2007? what happened to RealPolitik? or is EU diplomacy all just a bunch of hot air to make it seem like it means anything.

Furthermore, I as an ethnic turk seek reparations too. My ancestors lived all across the balkans. they were simple farmers. in what is today Kosova and Macedonia, my girlfriends ancestors were from what is today Bulgaria. I want my ancestral land back please, or a nice fat check from the Greek, Serbian, and Bulgarian governments. it was not nice how you guys butchered civilians, but mostly just forced them off THEIR LAND in your quaint little balkan wars pre-WW1. i know, i know. (turks are invaders, blah blah blah) i am sure my great great grandfather was just flaunting it in your face when he was farming his land. land that passed down the countless generations for over 500-600 years in the Balkans.)

Now What about that ethnic cleansing huh? Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs massacered turkish civilians, forced them out of thier land. Not Ottoman land, but the land of these farmers. the land that they lived off of and respects. * i know i am repeating myself hear, im just a little tired and i dont want to post in this thread again *

Armenia can get any reperations, and land if it wants. who needs eastern turkey anyway with all those troublesome villages. i think Turkey should agree to get some of its land back. namely eastern macedonia, southern bulgaria, and western thrace.

how about it Euros, fair?

then again, who gives a **** about those guys right? the deserved it. genocide in the 20th century europe didnt begin in Armenia, It began in the Balkans. it was ethnic cleansing, no doubt about it. just like Serbian actions in the early 90's against bosnians, croats, slovenes and later albanians.

7. basically its all a bunch of double standards


anyway, i am to tired to make some kind of concluding statement so ill just end it with....

"we often hate others, simply because we see the same characterstics in ourselves)




*EDIT* damn that was a long rant. i didn't realize i actually cared. or maybe i am just delusional.

[Loki77]

.
4. To Loki - What difference does it make when the Turks have settled in Europe. If you are concerned with the historical aspects of Turkish existance then it is just a moot point. All Humans, can pretty much trace thier ancestry to Eastern Africa if you go far enough. The fact that Turks have been in contact with western cultures since the 11th century. is enough. was there some sort of application period for European-ness that we missed by a century or so. Its rediculous. the fact is Turkish Civilizations have been heavily involved in the shaping of Europe, just as much as Russia, France, England, the Holy Roman Empire. etc. etc. etc

5. Furthermore Ragnorak: your statements of the notion that Turkey's economy, religion and ethnicity make them uneuropean? That is just inflammatory and racist. what exactly is a European economy. Last i check Turkey is a capitalist nation with a free-market, is that un-European.

In terms of ethnicity, The Ottoman Empire expanded through war, (as did every other midieval civizliation. ethnically pure turks numbered few in the very beginning. Even though Turkey is populated by 80% ethnic turks, realize that there is literraly a 1000 years of people intermarrying and mixing. The modern Turk is the progeny of a milleniu of mixing of hellenic, slavic, byzantine, hittie, lydian, illyrian, arabic, georigian etc. Anatolia is the crossroads of the ancient world. people have been screwing for a long time on the peninusla.

Religion, now this is borderline racist. What is European religion then? Christianity? more specifically is it Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Protestant, or more likey whatever religion you aspire to. maybe its the druids, or the greek gods, or the roman gods, or maybe the norse gods? honetly what claim do Europeans have over religion? and last i checked there is no state sanctioned religion in the Turkish Republic. Remember Ataturk and all that?

...Ethnic- Turkey is an Asian country because Turks are ethnically Turkic peoples(Northern and Central Asians peoples who speak languages belonging to the Turkic family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages), and who, in varying degrees, share certain cultural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture) and historical traits).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/Turkic_language_map3.PNG

Religion – Turkey is 99% muslim.

...Economy -Turkey is not at EU standards economically, consider the US$28,000 GDP per carpts PPP the EU has, and the US$6,900 for Turkey.
Turkey should get their 7.7% inflation rate closer to the EU average because it is far too high, the EU's is about 2.2%. The inflationary environment is usually a good metric for determining economic stability, something Turkey should work a bit more on.

....However, Turkey have different beliefs, religion, traditions and I also know of no country of the EU which is governed by the military. The military's involvement in political decisions in Turkey is immense.

[INAT]

Maybe European countries are anti-Turkey becuase they see what problems a Turkish minority has thus far on European culture and values.Trying to mix Islam and European values does not seem to work.It is like oil and water if Turkey were to join EU it would have a huge impact(even though Turkey is promoted as secular).
There is also the little problem of admitting the Armenian genocide which understandably Turkey has a
diffuclt time doing so.The EU as it is already has enough
poor countries joining or are going to join in the next decade that the sheer size of Turkey would have a negative economic effect.I am not trying to bash Turkey but they can be an important regional power and economic partner without joining the EU.

[Scourge]

Religion – Turkey is 99% muslim.
Without being racist, there are already enough muslims in Europe.

I think this is why most EU populations don't want Turkey. Most of people don't think to economic problems.

When a lambda citizen thinks to Turkey, what do they see ?
They see a muslim country, a weak democracy, ridiculed human rights (women who don't have rights, you have your hand cut when you steal something etc.).

I don't say it is true but it is the image that the majority of common people get of Turkey.

[eugenlitwin]

Explain me.. I'm curious about this comment...

Somehow exist in this old city, they already declared on this forum - "in 2030 or 50 t we would be majority in Germany", "we last one in this county who can make kids" actually this Comment was very offensive to German men) but it is just my opinionp-) .

PS
yes we gota lot of new Turkish members but I am waiting for day when Kurds are join us)) it would be real funrofl rofl rofl :slap: rofl …

[Mahir]

you have your hand cut when you steal something


roflroflroflrofl
good one =)

[eugenlitwin]

1. To All Posters: I am an American above all, I am turkish with a lower case t.

2. To The Turkish Posters: I think its hysterical that some of the turkish posters here feel that they are being ganged up on. Guys its just a messageboard. and it doesnt matter if one turkish poster posts it or 20 Turkish Posters post the same thing. Its just childish. Grow a thicker skin.

3. To The French Poster: The Turkish government does not have delusions of being a superpower. A regional power certainly. Perhaps the French feel threatened because they still have an inflated view of French Hegemony. Monsieurs, France is only relevant in the Franco-phone countries, and even then the American's are considerably involved. Lebanon, West Africa, South East Asia...

4. To Loki - What difference does it make when the Turks have settled in Europe. If you are concerned with the historical aspects of Turkish existance then it is just a moot point. All Humans, can pretty much trace thier ancestry to Eastern Africa if you go far enough. The fact that Turks have been in contact with western cultures since the 11th century. is enough. was there some sort of application period for European-ness that we missed by a century or so. Its rediculous. the fact is Turkish Civilizations have been heavily involved in the shaping of Europe, just as much as Russia, France, England, the Holy Roman Empire. etc. etc. etc

5. Furthermore Ragnorak: your statements of the notion that Turkey's economy, religion and ethnicity make them uneuropean? That is just inflammatory and racist. what exactly is a European economy. Last i check Turkey is a capitalist nation with a free-market, is that un-European.

In terms of ethnicity, The Ottoman Empire expanded through war, (as did every other midieval civizliation. ethnically pure turks numbered few in the very beginning. Even though Turkey is populated by 80% ethnic turks, realize that there is literraly a 1000 years of people intermarrying and mixing. The modern Turk is the progeny of a milleniu of mixing of hellenic, slavic, byzantine, hittie, lydian, illyrian, arabic, georigian etc. Anatolia is the crossroads of the ancient world. people have been screwing for a long time on the peninusla.

Religion, now this is borderline racist. What is European religion then? Christianity? more specifically is it Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Protestant, or more likey whatever religion you aspire to. maybe its the druids, or the greek gods, or the roman gods, or maybe the norse gods? honetly what claim do Europeans have over religion? and last i checked there is no state sanctioned religion in the Turkish Republic. Remember Ataturk and all that?

6. The other more politically correct version as to why Turkey should be allowed into europe is also interesting. Turkey is toooooooooo Big, toooooo poor, tooooo many human rights abuses. according to Rand McNally Turkey is on Asia Minor, thus its Asian Right?

well, then how do you explain Bulgaria and Hungary? these are poor countries, agree? Poland is pretty large, agree? hell there are talks about russia joining. furthermore, human rights? pretty convenient that France is pushing the Armenian issue, especially with the large population of Armenian voters in France. and dont get me started on human rights, in the last 15 years, human rights abuses have been commited by... drumroll please. every freaking balkan nation, (good to see that even Serbia is a possible candidate for the EU), Italian peacekeepers in the UN mission in Somalia. Russia in the Caucus, Armenians and Azeri's in Nagorno-Karbah. it can go on and on. interesting Armenia which is well outside of Europe is part of the copenhagen criteria. yada yada yada

7. Human Rights: furthermore, i accept that fact that a ****load of armenians died in ww1, I cannot say if it was managed by a state apparatus, but yes there were alot of dead armenians. so. moving on. guess what the ottomans killed them yes. the The government of the Turkish Republic order it, No. why, because the Turkish Republic did not exist until 1923.

now, if the Turkish Republic was to admit guilt (never will happen) i wonder will the United Kingdom accept its warcrimes in the Boer War (thanks for inventing the Concentration Camp guys, those Afrikaaner women and children had it coming to them). and the French pay reparations to Algerians, etc. etc. etc. you know what I am getting at. why is something that happened almost a hundred years ago affect policy in 2007? what happened to RealPolitik? or is EU diplomacy all just a bunch of hot air to make it seem like it means anything.

Furthermore, I as an ethnic turk seek reparations too. My ancestors lived all across the balkans. they were simple farmers. in what is today Kosova and Macedonia, my girlfriends ancestors were from what is today Bulgaria. I want my ancestral land back please, or a nice fat check from the Greek, Serbian, and Bulgarian governments. it was not nice how you guys butchered civilians, but mostly just forced them off THEIR LAND in your quaint little balkan wars pre-WW1. i know, i know. (turks are invaders, blah blah blah) i am sure my great great grandfather was just flaunting it in your face when he was farming his land. land that passed down the countless generations for over 500-600 years in the Balkans.)

Now What about that ethnic cleansing huh? Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs massacered turkish civilians, forced them out of thier land. Not Ottoman land, but the land of these farmers. the land that they lived off of and respects. * i know i am repeating myself hear, im just a little tired and i dont want to post in this thread again *

Armenia can get any reperations, and land if it wants. who needs eastern turkey anyway with all those troublesome villages. i think Turkey should agree to get some of its land back. namely eastern macedonia, southern bulgaria, and western thrace.

how about it Euros, fair?

then again, who gives a **** about those guys right? the deserved it. genocide in the 20th century europe didnt begin in Armenia, It began in the Balkans. it was ethnic cleansing, no doubt about it. just like Serbian actions in the early 90's against bosnians, croats, slovenes and later albanians.

7. basically its all a bunch of double standards


anyway, i am to tired to make some kind of concluding statement so ill just end it with....

"we often hate others, simply because we see the same characterstics in ourselves)




*EDIT* damn that was a long rant. i didn't realize i actually cared. or maybe i am just delusional.

Did you tape it by own fingers? Or force somebodyp-) ? Anyway welcome on the board friend:)

By the way
1) do you like Kurds (do they have right to exist, as human being?)
2) what do you think about greatest Armenian tragedy (90 years ago)?
3) in modern world women´s "place" is?

[Ergnkon]

Not so much Turkey's potential as much as 72 million muslims being elected into the EU parliament and the same 72 million muslims exercising their newfound Four Freedoms, which I must admit is scary.

Are you so much out of touch with today's reality? There is NO EU membership for Turkey in the future. It is already stopped informally and it'll be officially ended at the end of this year by the newly elected gov't in Turkey. :)



yes we gota lot of new Turkish members but I am waiting for day when Kurds are join us)) it would be real fun

You're doing just fine as a "Swede" by posting terrorist pictures. I thought terrorist propaganda was not allowed on this site...or do they have to be Iraqi insurgent to be called "terrorist" ?


Originally Posted by Scourge
you have your hand cut when you steal something

Some ppl are so ignorant, they don't even deserved to be racist.

Painfully sad...

[Mahir]

Did you tape it by own fingers? Or force somebodyp-) ? Anyway welcome on the board friend:)

By the way
1) do you like Kurds (do they have right to exist, as human being?)
2) what do you think about greatest Armenian tragedy (90 years ago)?
3) in modern world women´s "place" is?

as a Türk can i answer your questions ?
1)yes i like Kurds, they are our brothers. (You posted some terrorist photos, if you are referring to terrorist groups, you don't have right to exist if you kill babies, children, women, doctors,... as "human being")
2)There isn't a file in any government's archieves about it. We, Turks opened our archieves to anyone who wants to work on it, but when we said share your documents with us and let people work on your archieves too, hehe guess what? They don't have anything to prove their ideas.(dreams) =)
3)Women have the same rights as men have in our country.

[Canadian2urk]

Somehow exist in this old city, they already declared on this forum - "in 2030 or 50 t we would be majority in Germany", "we last one in this county who can make kids" actually this Comment was very offensive to German men) but it is just my opinionp-) .

PS
yes we gota lot of new Turkish members but I am waiting for day when Kurds are join us)) it would be real funrofl rofl rofl :slap: rofl …


so basically..... you are trying to say you can judge a whole race by comments of A member on MP.net...is this where you came up with this a "Turkish dream" conspiracy.
kinda like the ol "Zionist Dream" of the Jews? rofl

seriously, Can mods on this forum not see this member's rash hatred for Turks everytime he posts his arrogance?

That is not your average Kurd btw....it is a Terrorist.
Kurds are our Brothers, Same with Armenians, we have all lived in Anatolia for centuries. although Armenians decide they want to play the "blame game" an ruin the relationship.

here is an interesting Interview of several Armenian officials an politicians.
(including FM Vartan Oskanian)
http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-19908.html



[quote]Due to the need to resolve the issue relating to genocide allegations as soon as possible, in April 2005 Turkey proposed to Armenia that this matter be analyzed by historians and other experts, but Armenia didn't accept this proposal. This time Turkey has begun inquiring into the possibilities of resolving this issue by deferring it to a mechanism of international justice. However, the stance of the Armenian foreign minister with respect to resorting to international justice has also been negative. Although it may appear that this reluctance stems from disinclination to debate the "reality of the genocide," it's the case that the Armenians are apprehensive about not being able prove the existence of genocide before a judicial body.

Oskanian has described the proposal for establishing a joint commission of historians as a smokescreen for Europeans to think that Turkey has taken a positive step forward on this matter. The foreign minister has based this opinion on various grounds. The first reason advanced by Oskanian is that such a commission is already existent and that Turkish, Armenian and foreign scholars have debated and declared their position vis-a-vis this issue. These scholars wrote a letter to Prime Minister Erdogan and stated that the issue has been studied, that the conclusion is clearly genocide and that there's no need for further discussion.

On this matter Oskanian is displaying a degree of confusion. No commission bringing together Turkish, Armenian and other scholars has been set up. Although negotiations were carried out in Vienna between members of the Turkish Historical Society and an Armenian historian of Austrian citizenship, among whom an exchange of documents was carried out, this group hasn't been able to continue their work. On April 16, 2005, the International Association for Genocide Scholars, by way of a letter sent to Prime Minister Erdogan, stated that the existence of the Armenian "genocide" was the general view not only of Armenian but also of other scholars examining this issue. However, the institution in question doesn't comprise all nor even the majority of scholars specializing in this area of study. Furthermore, not a single Turkish scholar that is a member of this institution is known. Also, it's clear that for a party siding with the allegation of the existence of the Armenian "genocide" to send a letter to his prime minister crosses the line between scholarly and political action.

No one convicted for recognizing 'genocide'





By the way
1) do you like Kurds (do they have right to exist, as human being?)
2) what do you think about greatest Armenian tragedy (90 years ago)?
3) in modern world women´s "place" is?


1) Yes i like kurds, not seperatist Terrorist organizations like PKK, Dasnak, Hinchak.
2) what do you think about the Turkish Tradgedy (90 yrs ago)? are Armenian lives more important? its well documented that around the same number of Muslims (Turks, Kurds) also died at the same time frame.
3) same place as men... Maybe you should find a Kurd from S.E Turkey an ask him where a womens "place" is.. they call Sexism "tradition"

[Canadian2urk]

you have your hand cut when you steal something


you are thinking of Iran...

In Turkye, you get locked up after you are found guilty in a court of law.p-)

[0verbyte]

Economically speaking

Turkey: GDP: 612.3 billion, Per Capita GDP : $7,950

Romania: GDP 199.2 billion, per capita gdp : $8,785

Bulgaria: GDP 71.235 billion, per capita gdp: $9,600

2006 estimates ofcourse.

now where is the EU standard for GDP Per Capita. Romainia got in with have in a GDP percapita only $835 more. where is the dividing line?

why is it that inflation in Turkey is such an obstacle but the volatilty in greek and italian financial markets so conveniently ignored. get real, double standards

[alfigel]

In Turkye, you get locked up after you are found guilty in a court of law.p-)

For example for stealing stones from a beach. But that just on a sidenote.

[Canadian2urk]

For example for stealing stones from a beach. But that just on a sidenote.

another misconception by another euro...

as you know, Turkey has more ancient artifacts then Greece.. so its not really "a stone from the beach". :roll:

[Scourge]

Maybe cutting hand is not used (anymore ?) in Turkey but it is what common people (like me) associate Turkey to.

[Canadian2urk]

Maybe cutting hand is not used (anymore ?) in Turkey but it is what common people (like me) associate Turkey to.

Globalization...

You need to update yourself my friend... just like people who STILL(after 600 yrs) call Istanbul "constantinople". rofl

[Scourge]

Globalization...

You need to update yourself my friend... just like people who STILL(after 600 yrs) call Istanbul "constantinople". rofl

Sorry to disappoint you but I never heard anyone using that name nowadays.

It's up to Turkey to improve it's image. Not accepting simple critics as those ones only deteriorate Turkey's image. :D

[alfigel]

another misconception by another euro...

as you know, Turkey has more ancient artifacts then Greece.. so its not really "a stone from the beach". :roll:

Tourists were indeed convicted of trying to illegally export "ancient artifacts". I can understand that Turkey is paranoid about historical pieces brought out of the country, but automatically declaring every single stone on a beach an ancient artifact can't be the solution to this problem, and especially not when you're pissing off tourists. That's how you make your country look bad abroad.

[Scourge]

Tourists were indeed convicted of trying to illegally export "ancient artifacts". I can understand that Turkey is paranoid about historical pieces brought out of the country, but automatically declaring every single stone on a beach an ancient artifact can't be the solution to this problem, and especially not when you're pissing off tourists. That's how you make your country look bad abroad.

Yes, this is what I said. It's all about image.

[alfigel]

just like people who STILL(after 600 yrs) call Istanbul "constantinople". rofl

Sorry to disappoint you, but Constantinople was officially renamed to Istanbul in 1930, not "600 years ago". Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1023189.stm

Also, as mentioned by another poster, I have never witnessed anybody using the name Constantinople (except for using it in a historic context).

[alfigel]

Yes, this is what I said. It's all about image.

Oh, and I've found more specific information on that stone-tourist issue:
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/de/Laenderinformationen/Tuerkei/Sicherheitshinweise.html#t8 (sorry, German)


Also prosecuted very hard (jail sentence up to 10 years) are the acquisition, ownership and exportation of "cultural and natural assets", as they are considered state-owned properties. [...] Police and Customs interpret the term "antiquities" very broadly. Any processed stone could fall under this [definition].

They also mention that remands of several months of bails of about EUR 9000 (US-$ 11610) are very common for tourists, and that tourist have no chance of recognizing whether an asset is protected as antiquity or not, and so they disadvise tourists to take any stones or similar with them, or alternatively to try to get an export permission from a Customs office.

Anyway, not really cool, and quite hazardous for families with children who want to take an innocuous-looking stone from the beach as a souvenir with them.

[roland]

3. To The French Poster: The Turkish government does not have delusions of being a superpower. A regional power certainly. Perhaps the French feel threatened because they still have an inflated view of French Hegemony. Monsieurs, France is only relevant in the Franco-phone countries, and even then the American's are considerably involved. Lebanon, West Africa, South East Asia...


Even irrelevant as we can be, if we say NO Turkey wont enter period.
Now that's quite funny to see Turkey using the same means that didn't work when used by the US: threat and bullsh:t propaganda.
Let me tell you that we are so impressed that most people aren't even aware of it. Like we say: that speak to one ball but the other doesn't even notice.
I'm sure Turkey would have much better result being friendly.

[Canadian2urk]

Sorry to disappoint you but I never heard anyone using that name nowadays.

It's up to Turkey to improve it's image. Not accepting simple critics as those ones only deteriorate Turkey's image. :D

As the number of Turkish members increase here on MP.net, the number of times the old name(constantinople) is used is decreasing...:)

How do you improve your image without any interaction? or when people think you are a lier? (armenian "genocide"), cuz in all honesty, Turkiye will NEVER admit there was a genocide.. its just NOT going to happen..The mature thing for a common solution in order to improve relations is to sit down, trade historical documents and not be afraid to dig up the past. I know people will say this has been done.. but it surely has NOT. Negotiations in Vienna were held by the Turkish Historical Society and an Armenian Historian of Austrian citizenship, among whom an exchange of Historical documents was carried out, but unfortunately, for some mysterious reason, this group hasnt been able to continue their work..

Everytime an offer for a Joint-commission (Armenian-Turkish) Historians is brought up from the Turkish side, it is automatically slammed in their face. so how do you possibly even improve your image to these people if they dont even want talk to you an clarify what exactly happened?

with opposing views, i really dont see how the 2 countries are going to improve relations? even when you have a family-argument, how do you find a common solution? you compare views, right??

FM of Turkiye, Abdullah Gul, has already said publicly that "Turkiye will accept ANY outcome from the joint-commission"... that just tells you that Turkiye is atleast willing to face its past... but does Armenia?

You cant really change your "image" when you brothers are putting a blindfold over the worlds eyes.

[Ergnkon]

Hahaha...this is getting more and more intersting :)


Originally Posted by Scourge
you have your hand cut when you steal something


For example for stealing stones from a beach. But that just on a sidenote.

They must be feeding you some serious stuff in your schools :)

Austrian fear of the Turk, however, appears hardwired into the national psyche. Every Viennese school pupil learns of the ordeal inflicted on the city by the Turks in 1683 when the Hapsburg capital nearly fell to the Ottoman besiegers.

Austria stood against Turkey. The siege was lifted and Vienna saved Europe and Christendom from the Islamic invader. Of course, it was a Polish Roman Catholic king, Jan Sobieski, who saved Vienna by descending from the hills above Vienna to scatter the besieging Turks. But still.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/austria/article/0,,1585511,00.html

After all, you didn't even know your country is to hold referandum for Turkey's EU membership.

One positive thing can be produced from the level of all this ignorancy is that; Turkey is guaranteed NOT to become a member in your cub :)

[Vorian]

About the Instabul thing, people can call cities whatever they like. Personally I call it Constantinople even though I try to avoid it in international forums since I get flamed by Turkish members, (hasn't happened here, yet) but you can't dictate anyone about their language. I will call Instabul Constantinople as I call New York, "Nea Iorki" and I beg the American members to forgive me for that. :D :D

[Ergnkon]

About the Instabul thing, people can call cities whatever they like. Personally I call it Constantinople even though I try to avoid it in international forums since I get flamed by Turkish members, (hasn't happened here, yet) but you can't dictate anyone about their language. I will call Instabul Constantinople as I call New York, "Nea Iorki" and I beg the American members to forgive me for that. :D :D

Right. in a same way, I'm sure you won't mind the Turks calling Thessaloniki, "Selanik" :)

[alfigel]

Hahaha...this is getting more and more intersting :)





They must be feeding you some serious stuff in your schools :)

Austrian fear of the Turk, however, appears hardwired into the national psyche. Every Viennese school pupil learns of the ordeal inflicted on the city by the Turks in 1683 when the Hapsburg capital nearly fell to the Ottoman besiegers.

Austria stood against Turkey. The siege was lifted and Vienna saved Europe and Christendom from the Islamic invader. Of course, it was a Polish Roman Catholic king, Jan Sobieski, who saved Vienna by descending from the hills above Vienna to scatter the besieging Turks. But still.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/austria/article/0,,1585511,00.html

After all, you didn't even know your country is to hold referandum for Turkey's EU membership.

One positive thing can be produced from the level of all this ignorancy is that; Turkey is guaranteed NOT to become a member in your cub :)

Ergnkon, could you please stop mixing my statements with the ones from scourge? Thank you.

BTW, I backed up my statements with cold, hard facts. You may want to respond to that, thank you.

[Loki77]

Economically speaking

Turkey: GDP: 612.3 billion, Per Capita GDP : $7,950

Romania: GDP 199.2 billion, per capita gdp : $8,785

Bulgaria: GDP 71.235 billion, per capita gdp: $9,600

2006 estimates ofcourse.

now where is the EU standard for GDP Per Capita. Romainia got in with have in a GDP percapita only $835 more. where is the dividing line?

why is it that inflation in Turkey is such an obstacle but the volatilty in greek and italian financial markets so conveniently ignored. get real, double standards Sorry for my grammar, english is not my native language...
...These economic arguments do not justify that Turkey is a “European country”. What you says on Iceland, Norway? Of course, they are outside of EU.

...My arguments against Turkey in EU...
Turkey is not a European country (No offense to anyone).
Turkey is a culturally and religiously Islamic country, does not fit into 'Pagan-Greek-Christian' Europe
Turkish membership will lead to a influx of new migrants
Islamophobia is a great problem at present in Europe
Anti-EU sentiment in Turkey has risen
Turkey still has to implement many laws and especially military under civilian control
Turkey discriminates Kurdish minority which amounts 20% of the country’s total population.

How valid my arguments?
...Turkey is situated in Asia(93%), the Orient and the Islam are not part of Europe. EU have 4% Muslims with Turkish membership they would have more than 18%. This would have a strong impact cultural, politically and economically for EU. Europe would have to reduce the aid to some EU regions in order to give priority to Turkey’s economy. Turkey would be among the most important political players in Europe Union since it would be one of the most populated members. Turkey has frontiers with some of the most rogue countries in the Middle East it will be much easier for drugs and terrorism to reach Europe (mainly heroin from Central Asia).

...I agree with you that Turkey has been an important "geopolitical player" in Europe for more than nine centuries, as a threat which Martin Luther wrote his pamphlet "On War Against the Turk", i remember The Siege of Vienna in 1529 , The Battle of Vienna in 1683 and Greek War of Independence. In the last half century Turkey was a close European ally in NATO(because American missiles against the URSS was in Turkey).


Even irrelevant as we can be, if we say NO Turkey wont enter period. Now that's quite funny to see Turkey using the same means that didn't work when used by the US: threat and bullsh:t propaganda.
Let me tell you that we are so impressed that most people aren't even aware of it. Like we say: that speak to one ball but the other doesn't even notice. I'm sure Turkey would have much better result being friendly. I agree...

[Sato]

Some facts about Turkey's neighbours;


border countries: Armenia 268 km, Azerbaijan 9 km, Bulgaria 240 km, Georgia 252 km, Greece 206 km, Iran 499 km, Iraq 352 km, Syria 822 km
It's hard to imagine the EU is looking forward to share borders with some of the underlined countries. The term buffer state is approriate in my opinion. Although I think both the EU and Turkey have much to gain with a partnership

One specific Turkish law;



Constitution /Türkiye Cümhuriyeti Anayasas (No. 2709, Adopted November 7, 1982)
Preamble, (Amended: 1995/4121.1)
(Paragraph 5)
No protection shall be given to thoughts or opinions that run counter to Turkish national interests, the fundamental principle of the existence of the indivisibility of the Turkish state and territory, the historical and moral values of Turkishness, or the nationalism, principles, reforms, and modernism of Atatürk, and that as required by the principle of secularism there shall be no absolutely no interference of sacred religious feeling in the affairs of state and politics;

This would seem to contradict some basic values of the EU

EU member states disputes with Turkey;

complex maritime, air, and territorial disputes with Greece in the Aegean Sea,Turkey does not recognize North Cyprus

This obviously a serious issue.


So given these facts and the fact that the European comission already suffers from bureacracy and indedecision, I don't think the whole racisme and "Europeans hate Turks" makes much sense. There clearly are more practical reasons why the EU is reluctant to let Turkey join.

[Vorian]

Right. in a same way, I'm sure you won't mind the Turks calling Thessaloniki, "Selanik" :)

Not at all, it doesn't change the fact that it's Greek, as Constantinople is Turkish now.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Sorry for my grammar, english is not my native language...

Thats ok, I hope you will understand what I write now...p-)


[QUOTE=Loki77;2233709]...These economic arguments do not justify that Turkey is a “European country”. What you says on Iceland, Norway? Of course, they are outside of EU.

Actually, it is a good signal about scale of Turkey to compare to more poor countries of new EU members.Who will give a good market place to EU? Turkey or Bulgaria or Romania?



...My arguments against Turkey in EU...
Turkey is not a European country (No offense to anyone).


Sorry but Turkey is somehow,partly a European country, both culturally and historically. (long wars - long aliens and enemies agaist European countries)You can find many same points from European values into Turkey.



Turkey is a culturally and religiously Islamic country, does not fit into 'Pagan-Greek-Christian' Europe

Turkey is not an I S L A M I C country. Turkey is a democratic secular country. But I see you look at this issues from the religion minded way.


Turkish membership will lead to a influx of new migrants. Islamophobia is a great problem at present in Europe

How? the rules are rigid. Who will break the rules? it is illusional



Anti-EU sentiment in Turkey has risen

So, Anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe decrease? really? I dont think so...It is mutual. (and it is a very funny in modern world acting like a mideaval world)



Turkey still has to implement many laws and especially military under civilian control
Turkey discriminates Kurdish minority which amounts 20% of the country’s total population.

Now,you step on ethnical minorities issue again...Why? what is your priority with them? could you discuss Greek and French minorities, or Turkish minorities in Europe, Balkans, Iraq and Iran?

How valid my arguments?
...Turkey is situated in Asia(93%), the Orient and the Islam are not part of Europe. EU have 4% Muslims with Turkish membership they would have more than 18%. This would have a strong impact cultural, politically and economically for EU. Europe would have to reduce the aid to some EU regions in order to give priority to Turkey’s economy. Turkey would be among the most important political players in Europe Union since it would be one of the most populated members. Turkey has frontiers with some of the most rogue countries in the Middle East it will be much easier for drugs and terrorism to reach Europe (mainly heroin from Central Asia).


what...oranges and apples conversion...


...I agree with you that Turkey has been an important "geopolitical player" in Europe for more than nine centuries, as a threat which Martin Luther wrote his pamphlet "On War Against the Turk", i remember The Siege of Vienna in 1529 , The Battle of Vienna in 1683 and Greek War of Independence. In the last half century Turkey was a close European ally in NATO(because American missiles against the URSS was in Turkey).


Accept or not, Eu or not, Turkish influence will always be in the Middle east-Caucasus-Balkans and EU.

[Loki77]

Sorry but Turkey is somehow,partly a European country, both culturally and historically. (long wars - long aliens and enemies agaist European countries)You can find many same points from European values into Turkey.

.....Ethnically, religiosly Turks are not europeans. Turks are culturally and ethnically asians.

.....Do You know that the Turks are still in Central Asia, even today? One of the states there is called Turkmenistan. Turkey is trying to form and lead a Pan-Turkic league in the area....
LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples)



Turkey is not an I S L A M I C country. Turkey is a democratic secular country. But I see you look at this issues from the religion minded way. Maybe not..


How? the rules are rigid. Who will break the rules? it is illusional Many people in Europe(mainly Scandinavia) concern about is the potential influx of Turks cheap labor into welfare states. Member states are not prepared to fully fund Turkey's accession costs.
READ (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magazine/05muslims.html?ex=1296795600&en=722dbb00a718b0f9&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)



Accept or not, Eu or not, Turkish influence will always be in the Middle east-Caucasus-Balkans and EU. Explain me...

[cinoeye]

Economically speaking

Turkey: GDP: 612.3 billion, Per Capita GDP : $7,950

Romania: GDP 199.2 billion, per capita gdp : $8,785

Bulgaria: GDP 71.235 billion, per capita gdp: $9,600

2006 estimates ofcourse.

now where is the EU standard for GDP Per Capita. Romainia got in with have in a GDP percapita only $835 more. where is the dividing line?

why is it that inflation in Turkey is such an obstacle but the volatilty in greek and italian financial markets so conveniently ignored. get real, double standards

Agree.
So all that typing form Overbite goes to drain ;)

And he also said Hungary is poor-
GDP -$16,300

[eugenlitwin]

as a Türk can i answer your questions ?
1)yes i like Kurds, they are our brothers. (You posted some terrorist photos, if you are referring to terrorist groups, you don't have right to exist if you kill babies, children, women, doctors,... as "human being")
2)There isn't a file in any government's archieves about it. We, Turks opened our archieves to anyone who wants to work on it, but when we said share your documents with us and let people work on your archieves too, hehe guess what? They don't have anything to prove their ideas.(dreams) =)
3)Women have the same rights as men have in our country.

1)No you can’t, I bet you are not ones bit sh”t out of your younger brothers oppressors…


2) O Men it is explain everything…if something is not found in Turkish archives it never was…

PS Austrian fear of the Turk, however, appears hardwired into the national psyche. Every Viennese school pupil learns of the ordeal inflicted on the city by the Turks in 1683 when the Hapsburg capital nearly fell to the Ottoman besiegers.

I think fear is wrong world…

[Clearday-TRForce]

1)No you can’t, I bet you are not ones bit sh”t out of your younger brothers oppressors…


2) O Men it is explain everything…if something is not found in Turkish archives it never was…

PS Austrian fear of the Turk, however, appears hardwired into the national psyche. Every Viennese school pupil learns of the ordeal inflicted on the city by the Turks in 1683 when the Hapsburg capital nearly fell to the Ottoman besiegers.

I think fear is wrong world…




Same posts, same wagonist,same train...same troll.p-)

[Canadian2urk]

Same posts, same wagonist,same train...same troll.p-)

couldnt have said it better myself...:backhand:

in the late80's/early 90's, PKK began to heavily brainwash Kurds through propaganda into believing the TSK was after the Kurdish race as a whole. Some gullable Kurds started whining about "genocide/discrimination", others were more mature an never fell for the horsecrap. (currently living happily in Turkey)

in the early 1900's, Dasnak/Hinchak began to heavily brainwash Armenians through propaganda into believing the Ottoman Govt was after the Armenian race as a whole. Some gullable Armenians started whining about "genocide/discrimination", others were more mature an never fell for the horsecrap. (currently living happily in Turkey)

afterall, what is a revolting seperatist groups most powerful tool?


P_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ A.

[Canadian2urk]

BTW, I backed up my statements with cold, hard facts. You may want to respond to that, thank you.


you call some German site "facts"?

about the whole Tourist/stone thing, Tourist destinations in Turkey has its own souvenier shop where you would PURCHASE this souvenier, therefore you will recieve a RECIEPT to show for it.

Souveniers are not free anywhere these days...

kid gettin arrested for taking a stone off the beach? get real... have you been watching to much Midnight Express?

[alfigel]

you call some German site "facts"?

This is not "some German site", this is the official website of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where they publish all the important travelling information, including travel warnings and such. And basically every guidebook about Turkey contains such warnings too. So, what's correct now? The version of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, or yours, and all those warnings by so many people and institutions are just a huge conspiracy against Turkey?


kid gettin arrested for taking a stone off the beach? get real... have you been watching to much Midnight Express?

I can remember a case where an German tourist was put into prison on remand for doing just that: http://www.wdr.de/themen/panorama/3/antiker_stein/index.jhtml

[angry cow]

The more ways you europeans try to justify why Turkey has been on the wating list for almost 50 years, the more racist you seem.

Turkey has just as strong of a heritage in Europe as it does in the Middle East. For that matter so did Islam before you guys managed to wipe them out. Europe won't be able to live in a little fortress forever, America tried it and the rest of the world came knocking.

Accepting Turkey's membership gives you guys a golden opportunity to become stronger and more influential, while gaining a more diverse perspective. The EU as it currently stands seems to be talking out of its ass whenever it comments on current conflicts because it has such a long history of being so UNaccepting of others. (Muslims, Jews, etc . .) You will have more credibility, ESPECIALLY in the middle east when you accept a culture that is truly different from your own.

Most of the Turkey-Greece disagreements would become irrelevant were Schnegen to be implemented between them anyways . . . Still important symbolically of course, but I bet the Turks and Greeks would probably be the EU's best dogfighters after all their scrambling against each other . . .

[Canadian2urk]

This is not "some German site", this is the official website of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where they publish all the important travelling information, including travel warnings and such. And basically every guidebook about Turkey contains such warnings too. So, what's correct now? The version of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs, or yours, and all those warnings by so many people and institutions are just a huge conspiracy against Turkey?



I can remember a case where an German tourist was put into prison on remand for doing just that: http://www.wdr.de/themen/panorama/3/antiker_stein/index.jhtml

Your link is dead, troll.

[Canadian2urk]

The more ways you europeans try to justify why Turkey has been on the wating list for almost 50 years, the more racist you seem.


even when Turkey met the "Copenhagen Criteria" like all other E.U members, they still found other excuses.(cyprus)

how long has Cyprus been a part of EU an how long has Turkey been on the waiting list?




Turkey has just as strong of a heritage in Europe as it does in the Middle East. For that matter so did Islam before you guys managed to wipe them out. Europe won't be able to live in a little fortress forever, America tried it and the rest of the world came knocking.

Accepting Turkey's membership gives you guys a golden opportunity to become stronger and more influential, while gaining a more diverse perspective. The EU as it currently stands seems to be talking out of its ass whenever it comments on current conflicts because it has such a long history of being so UNaccepting of others. (Muslims, Jews, etc . .) You will have more credibility, ESPECIALLY in the middle east when you accept a culture that is truly different from your own.

Most of the Turkey-Greece disagreements would become irrelevant were Schnegen to be implemented between them anyways . . . Still important symbolically of course, but I bet the Turks and Greeks would probably be the EU's best dogfighters after all their scrambling against each other . . .


agreed word for word. But after seeing the Double Standards of the E.U, screw the membership.p-)

[Canadian2urk]

One specific Turkish law;

This obviously a serious issue.


it WAS an issue 12 yrs ago....

"(Amended: 1995/4121.1)"

Turkey met the Copenhagen criteria for a reason....

[eugenlitwin]

The more ways you europeans try to justify why Turkey has been on the wating list for almost 50 years, the more racist you seem.

Turkey has just as strong of a heritage in Europe as it does in the Middle East. For that matter so did Islam before you guys managed to wipe them out. Europe won't be able to live in a little fortress forever, America tried it and the rest of the world came knocking.

Accepting Turkey's membership gives you guys a golden opportunity to become stronger and more influential, while gaining a more diverse perspective. The EU as it currently stands seems to be talking out of its ass whenever it comments on current conflicts because it has such a long history of being so UNaccepting of others. (Muslims, Jews, etc . .) You will have more credibility, ESPECIALLY in the middle east when you accept a culture that is truly different from your own.

Most of the Turkey-Greece disagreements would become irrelevant were Schnegen to be implemented between them anyways . . . Still important symbolically of course, but I bet the Turks and Greeks would probably be the EU's best dogfighters after all their scrambling against each other . . .

Take them all:) as presentp-) , Canada USA Mexico + turkey why not ) why do you push them in to EU so strong?

[Sato]

it WAS an issue 12 yrs ago....

"(Amended: 1995/4121.1)"

Turkey met the Copenhagen criteria for a reason....

So this particular law is no longer in effect? Was it canceled? Or was it adapted? Maybe I meant Article 301 of the Turkish penal code. Wich is, to my knowledge, still in effect.

Anyway, my point was that the Europe Union is not ready to grant Turkey membership (there's no constitution,the European parliament is a bureacratic monster etc...). And Turkey is not ready to join the EU either (see my previous post).
So the fact that Turkey isn't becoming a member of the EU has, in my honest opinion, nothing to do with Islamofobia or racisme...

[Vorian]

n WC in Dresden
shorty barbarian man I bet, you never call North male “troll” in a face only behind …

I hope that was a joke...

[eugenlitwin]

I hope that was a joke...


sort ofrofl:slap:

[Vorian]

You should be careful though, these jokes are the kind that make you banned. And not all have a sense of humour.

[Horizon]

Turkey joining the EU is not an option, not because EU leaders abhor the idea but simply because EU's 457 million people do not want an islamic country flooding our already fragile stability.EU has large muslim population to know the burden if not the nightmare that could represent 70 million plus flooding in.

In essence as what I could see in person, and articles on Germany turks have no interets in western values, do not integrate, and tend to live between
themselves.