Senator says US may need compulsory service to boost Iraq fo

[MetalBoy]

Wow, what a retard. :lol: I don't want losers like anti-war people and hippies fighting for my country. Wouldn't caualty rates be much higher in a drafted army anyway?


WASHINGTON (AFP) - A senior Republican lawmaker said that deteriorating security in Iraq (news - web sites) may force the United States to reintroduce the military draft.


"There's not an American ... that doesn't understand what we are engaged in today and what the prospects are for the future," Senator Chuck Hagel told a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on post-occupation Iraq.


"Why shouldn't we ask all of our citizens to bear some responsibility and pay some price?" Hagel said, arguing that restoring compulsory military service would force "our citizens to understand the intensity and depth of challenges we face."


The Nebraska Republican added that a draft, which was ended in the early 1970s, would spread the burden of military service in Iraq more equitably among various social strata.


"Those who are serving today and dying today are the middle class and lower middle class," he observed.


The call to consider a imposing a draft comes just days after the Pentagon (news - web sites) moved to extend the missions of some 20,000 of the 135,000 US troops in Iraq.


Some critics of the US-led occupation complain that military planners used too few troops to subdue Iraq, and insist that more military muscle will be needed to restore order.


The US-led military coalition was put under further strain by the announcement this week by coalition members Spain and Honduras that they would withdraw their military contingents from Iraq.


Meanwhile, witnesses at the hearing, including academics and former US officials, expressed concern about ongoing flareups of violence in Iraq this month -- the bloodiest yet for US troops.


"I think it's clear that pressures in Iraq have reached the boiling point," said Samuel Berger, national security adviser during the Bill Clinton (news - web sites) administration, who called for an increase in troops there, and a "genuine, non-grudging effort to internationalize the enterprise in Iraq, both military and civilian."


"We've got to be prepared to give up our hammerlock on decision making in exchange for genuine burden sharing."


Richard Perle, a former White House adviser who currently serves as a fellow at a conservative think tank, advised against adding troops or extending the date of handover of Iraqi sovereignty beyond the currently-set June 30 date.


"It is essential that we not delay the handover of sovereignty set for the end of June, even if there is continuing violence by those who know they have no place in a decent, democratic Iraq," he said.


Perle also warned against entrusting the United Nations (news - web sites) with the post-occupation administration of Iraq, saying UN involvement should be kept at "an absolute minimum."


"A large UN contingent in Iraq ... would do more harm than good," Perle said.


"It would discourage the assumption of sovereignty by Iraqis themselves. It would drain resources urgently needed for the development of Iraq's economy," Perle said.


A senior Democrat meanwhile, lashed out at the White House for failing to send a top administration official to appear before the panel.


"I think it is outrageous that the administration has not provided every witness we've asked for," said Senator Joseph Biden, the highest-ranking Democrat on the committee.

"The fact that they are not prepared to send a witness means that they are either totally incompetent and they don't have anything to tell us ... or they're refusing to allow us to fulfill our constitutional responsibility" of congressional oversight, Biden said.

The committee's Republican chairman, Richard Lugar, also slammed the White House for "inadequate planning and communication related to Iraq."

[UkrainianAmerican]

Another option would be to remove troops from Germany, and put em in Iraq. (I would say Korea and Japan too, but then those countruies sent a pretty respectable contigent, so there is no need fo rhtat)

[Haiw]

Another option would be to remove troops from Germany, and put em in Iraq. (I would say Korea and Japan too, but then those countruies sent a pretty respectable contigent, so there is no need fo rhtat)
Removing troops would propably hurt you more than them...
Sure, you could pull down all your bases in Germany, but things are way easier for you when you just keep Rammstein and all. (The airfield, not the band)

[Tane Angle]

From what I understand, this is the current situation regarding the draft:

It's no longer a question of if, but when. We are going to begin a limited draft within the next 6-18 months, focusing on citizens with special skills, particularly in the language and technical fields. While there remains a strong possibility that we will begin a general draft, I don't know if it will happen as quickly.

Personally, I think drafted militaries should be avoided if at all possible. However, extreme situations call for extreme measures. I wish the situation weren't like this, but it is.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[fred_engles]

I wonder if my credits will transfer to McGill...

[MetalBoy]

Oh ****, does that mean I'll be drafted, because I took an Arabic class last year? Just kidding, but if and when I decide to join the military I'd rather enlist.

[usa320]

It's no longer a question of if, but when

Hate to say it, but you are completely and utterly wrong.

Ive spoken to people in the military, and they made it quite clear that the top brass WILL NOT allow conscription to take place at any level.

The reason being the same one cited after veitnam. Guys that dont want to be there just drag down the morale of those that do, and they do not put in the effort or care about what they are doing.

Will the military make an effort to re-allocate forces and re-organize to make for a more efficient and effective force? Absolutely.

Will the military close down bases in Germany that it no longer needs? Absolutely. There are plans to close all the US Airbases in Germany except Ramstein. A large amount of forces have already been redeployed elsewhere from germany.

Will the military make an effort to boost recruitment? You can bet on it.

And the military, as always will do everything it can to increase the gap between numerical advantage and technological advantage.

But will the military be willing to place kids with poor training, complete lack of motivation and maturity in its ranks? Absolutely not.

A draft could also very easily compromise security. If the wrong person got drafted to the wrong position, you could have information getting to the enemy or a third party that is less than friendly to the United States.

And to be honest, i think the situation in Iraq seems to be improving for the moment, assuming the cease-fire in Fallujah holds, and the Clerics continue to pressure the people not to resort to violent means. I think once June 30th roles around, we wont be on centerstage as much as we are now. Sure we will still have 100,000 troops in country to provide security, aid and stability, but i think the number of offensive operations will decrease, and with the turnover of power, i think the need for such raids will also decrease.

Thats not to say that if Drafted i wouldnt go. As a male American Citizen, of decent medical fitness it would be my duty to do so.

Ive already considered signing up, but based on reccomendations from people i know in the service, as well as my physician, i opted not to, as it was suggested to me that i would have an extremely hard time keeping up physically because of my knee.

But if a draft was started, i would probably enlist, this way i at least get to choose what im doing. I would more than likely apply for the airforce, as im quite fond of flying. Though ive also though of Coast Guard, working with a VBSS team.

[Tane Angle]

How's it going, usa? Hope all is well on your side of the screen.

Buddy, I hope to God that what I wrote above is wrong. I really do. But now's not the time to dance around the problem, and it's a big, whopping problem. And I've spoken to people in the military too, and no one's too sure that there is another option.


But will the military be willing to place kids with poor training...

How many recruits do you think have training going in?

And thanks for the word on security, bud. :D Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[gaz]

Just as a matter of interest, the draft during Vietnam - Was that brought in specifically during Vietnam or had it continued from WWII and through Korea?

[usa320]

How many recruits do you think have training going in?


Very few.

But Conscript training would more than likely be done in a quick fashion, not giving the recruits any experience as far as the extensive war-games that our current forces engage in.

Another thing im thinking about is Intelligence. Ive long though of applying with the CIA or NSA, even if its a job flipping through papers all day looking for things of interest, its still serving the country. My original plan was to serve with AFSOC and then after a few years apply with the CIA SAD, but that will never happen, ever.

Plus ive got extensive computer skills, i have a massive knowledge of religion, culture and politics, so that would only help, not to mention i know 3 languages.

[Mamon]

If a draft were instated I would enlist at once.

[obd]

Yes, I would rather volunteer than be drafted for duty in Iraq. But of course, if that were the case it would be more like compulsory voluntary service heheheheh....... It sure was in Vietnam...But I know many people, my uncle included, who decided to volunteer when it became clear he would be drafted to 'Nam.... He didnt imediately volunteer, and neither did my dad, because thier father (my grandfather) died in a plane crash and they needed to take care of thier mother who was ill....They felt that this would keep them out of the draft but it didnt.... Luckily, my father was not accepted due to a pin in his ankle and a permanent limp from his days playing lacrosse at Ohio State University (all time leading scorer in the nation by the way heheh)..... His brother however served on the front lines as an infantryman and then transfered and worked with PBR's in some way... He came back messed up and spent the rest of his life a drunk until he died while in Ireland where he was put to rest....

But anyway, dont bash a conscript army metalboy.... World War 2 was fought by an American conscript army and they did damn well.... Of course, nearly every single man new exactly what they were fighting for and believed in the war's cause.....something that cant be said for Iraq....

[Mark Sman]

There will be no draft. Take it to the bank.

Recruitment goals are being met. The next step is an authorization of increase in size for the overall force structure, and serious efforts at increasing retention.

I believe that a country that can't defend itself with a volunteer force deserves to go down the drain anyway.

[Ichhabe]

This may also prove the Patriotic stance that so many loud speakers have endourced. Now that they have yelled the yell, they now can walk the walk. :D

[Sergei]

From what I understand, this is the current situation regarding the draft:

It's no longer a question of if, but when. We are going to begin a limited draft within the next 6-18 months, focusing on citizens with special skills, particularly in the language and technical fields. While there remains a strong possibility that we will begin a general draft, I don't know if it will happen as quickly.

Personally, I think drafted militaries should be avoided if at all possible. However, extreme situations call for extreme measures. I wish the situation weren't like this, but it is.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

I think a drafted army is a great idea. Maybe the folks will know what they are fighting for or if they don't, they will be less inclined to start a war and die in it no matter what their stupid government is telling them.
Draft will be the end for Bush and his rabid neocons.

[Jack Mehoff]

The Olsen Twin and I will have a three-some if Congress reinstates the draft. :roll:

[Jack Mehoff]

From what I understand, this is the current situation regarding the draft:

It's no longer a question of if, but when. We are going to begin a limited draft within the next 6-18 months, focusing on citizens with special skills, particularly in the language and technical fields. While there remains a strong possibility that we will begin a general draft, I don't know if it will happen as quickly.

Personally, I think drafted militaries should be avoided if at all possible. However, extreme situations call for extreme measures. I wish the situation weren't like this, but it is.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

I think a drafted army is a great idea. Maybe the folks will know what they are fighting for or if they don't, they will be less inclined to start a war and die in it no matter what their stupid government is telling them.
Draft will be the end for Bush and his rabid neocons.

Only Congress is allow to reinstate the draft. The President has no power to do that. Please do a little research before engaging your keyboard.

[Tane Angle]

Well, he may have a point, Bush would be blamed for it.

By the way, I sincerely don't want to see a draft. It's a heck of a lot better to retain the people already trained than to lose them and have to train new ones. It's not effecient in terms of money or time. But, I don't think we're doing enough to keep retention rates up. And where's that increased force size? It takes a year or more to adequately train troops for Iraq, so we need to start increasing the size now, so that they'll be ready in a year.

Anyways, have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[Hellman109]

They will try to pull in people who quit the military and old commanders in preperation if a draft was ever made.

If you dont see them doing this or pulling back a few people to go as trainers when the recruitment doesnt change that will be a pre-cursor.

A draft doesnt make a president popular, so he will wait till AFTER elections to say anyting.

[Sergei]

From what I understand, this is the current situation regarding the draft:

It's no longer a question of if, but when. We are going to begin a limited draft within the next 6-18 months, focusing on citizens with special skills, particularly in the language and technical fields. While there remains a strong possibility that we will begin a general draft, I don't know if it will happen as quickly.

Personally, I think drafted militaries should be avoided if at all possible. However, extreme situations call for extreme measures. I wish the situation weren't like this, but it is.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

I think a drafted army is a great idea. Maybe the folks will know what they are fighting for or if they don't, they will be less inclined to start a war and die in it no matter what their stupid government is telling them.
Draft will be the end for Bush and his rabid neocons.

Only Congress is allow to reinstate the draft. The President has no power to do that. Please do a little research before engaging your keyboard.
And if Congress decides in the favor of draft, I hope to see Congressmen's kids in the front row of those getting drafted. They talked the talk, but can they walk the walk?

[HELEX]

rofl

[MaDuce]

rofl
Yes HELEX drafting more people in the military is very entertaining for you. More people to die that way. And asfar as you are concerned more dead Amercians are good becuase you can brag about.

The Olsen Twin and I will have a three-some if Congress reinstates the draft.
*Observes Jack in the corner praying for the draft.

[panzrman]

Another option would be to remove troops from Germany, and put em in Iraq.

They are already there and have been there. 1st Armored and 1st ID.

[front]

When you have Senators like Hagel:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/natlib/afc2001001/service/02230/ph0001001r.jpg

talking about the draft you had better take notice. Sure the memories of Vietnam are still crystal clear in the generation who were around for it but think about this next point for a second.

IF the civilian paymasters in Washington decide that more troops are needed (and they may have already) then do you really and honestly think that a deeply unpopular move such as the draft is going to stop them?

These guys can sell anything to anyone. All they have to do is wrap it in the flag and appeal to their hardcore supporters.

Look at the words which were used, and even more importantly reported, by Hagel.

"""Those who are serving today and dying today are the middle class and lower middle class," he observed. "

Hagel is following the usual script here of battering away at one section of society to bring another onboard. It is implied here that the "lower" classes are not doing their bit. Lets use an example here. Jessica Lynch was not in the middle or even the lower middle class. She has said that she joined up because she could not even get a job at Wal-Mart in Palestine, West Virginia. There is already a "poverty draft" in operation in the US.

This is how the propaganda starts.

Let's look at another public relations tactic.

Hagel stated:

""Why shouldn't we ask all of our citizens to bear some responsibility and pay some price?" Hagel said,"

Try to argue against that. You can't. That's what he wants. No arguments. The price will be set and Hagel and the rest will figure out a way to get you young US men to pay for it. Not Halliburton.

I don't understand how you people try to figure out that the draft will not be brought back. It will be brought back if either Bush or Kerry are in power next year and they still need extra troops for Iraq.

Right now they figure that maybe they can hold on but what they are doing is laying the groundwork for a draft just in case they need it.

Need. That is the main point. The civilians in the Whitehouse and the Pentagon may not WANT a draft, and they will do everything and say anything via the media to get that point across, but when they run out of troops and face a near-revolt over deployments they will NEED one.

Neccessity is the mother of invention. They are quite capable of inventing new and complex reasons for a draft when they need one and they only need 51% of the American Public to go along with that.

Bread and circuses anyone?

cheers

front

[panzrman]

Another option would be to remove troops from Germany, and put em in Iraq.

They are already there and have been there. 1st Armored and 1st ID.

[Jack Mehoff]

what is the maximum age to get draft?

[usa320]

could not even get a job at Wal-Mart

wow...thats...errr...very bad for her....

[nerdman]

Personally... I think things (Iraq) will have to get a lot worse or start trending towards the events of the last couple of weeks for many Congresspersons to even consider talking about a draft. Currently:

Draft = Political Suicide

[nerdman]

could not even get a job at Wal-Mart

wow...thats...errr...very bad for her....

Hey man, not just anyone can work at the Wal-Mart. It takes that special someone… who looks good in a blue vest.

[hahaha]

Why not recruit from these forums ? With all the fvcking heroes here you guys should win the war in no time at all...

[Jack Mehoff]

Why not recruit from these forums ? With all the fvcking heroes here you guys should win the war in no time at all...

I would have to wait until my ETS expires. Plus, i'm out of shape from whoring this forum.

[front]

Quote:
could not even get a job at Wal-Mart

"wow...thats...errr...very bad for her...."

Yes it was. It's not a reflection on her abilities per se but on the fact that Palestine, West Virginia has one of the highest unemployment rates in the West Virginia. She really believed that she did not have a choice and the military was the only way out.

"Palestine, located about 70 miles north of Charleston, is a farming community in sparsely populated Wirt County, which had a 15 percent unemployment rate in January -- one of the state's highest. "

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/03/24/missing.soldier.ap/

cheers

front

[Abolith]

what is the maximum age to get draft?

from what Read it would start at age 20 and go to 25, after which it would drop to 19 and then 18. IF after all of those were drafted it would start going up in age from 26. Somehow I doubt it would ever get that high tho.

[radon]

To reduce the damage done by pothead hippies in the draft mak the draft as volunteer as possible. In conscription armys there are places where the hippy level is like 0 . Try to put the people with high morale in one place (many of them likely enlist anyway) in one place , and you have fine people. There have always been quality troops from drafted armies.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I get the feeling that if they ever do introduce the draft in the US, European colleges and universities will be full of rich American kids and the less well of will become PT instructors at Swiss finishing schools before embarking on a promising acting career usually typecast as a war hero. :)

[fred_engles]

Front: I think you're actually misinterpreting part of Hagel's words.
Look at the words which were used, and even more importantly reported, by Hagel.

"""Those who are serving today and dying today are the middle class and lower middle class," he observed. "

Hagel is following the usual script here of battering away at one section of society to bring another onboard. It is implied here that the "lower" classes are not doing their bit. Lets use an example here. Jessica Lynch was not in the middle or even the lower middle class. She has said that she joined up because she could not even get a job at Wal-Mart in Palestine, West Virginia. There is already a "poverty draft" in operation in the US.I think Hagel is actually in agreement with you that there's a "poverty draft." Americans have a curious tendency to call practically everyone "middle-class": if you're poor, but not homeless, you're 'lower-middle class,' and if you're rich, but aren't one the forbes 'richest people' list, you're 'upper-middle class.' (This is, as far as I know, a uniquely american phenomenon). When Hagel was talking about how the "middle class and lower middle class" were overrepresented in the military, he's talking about poorer half, not the richer half, of society. He's talking about Wal-mart middle class, not the Williams-Sonoma middle-class. And that's certainly a very real phenomenon - students from my (public but relatively wealthy) school district enlisted at a very low rate (I can think of only one or two people [from my graduating high school class, or even from my acquaintances in general] who may have entered the military).