Mordechai Vanunu's release is today!!!

[Uninen]

Today is the release date.......

Yeah thats right ladies and gentlemen, and do you know what this means? WMD hunts next stop Israel.....

:P

That is if you really want to get rid of illegal WMDs on hands of madmen..... (Sharon....)

Link! (http://www.vanunu.freeserve.co.uk/)

[Fintin]

cant you just go away...for like a week atleast?...hell come to detroit...ill play nice

[SeanAshi]

Israel doesn't have nukes :lol: unofficialy that is.

[Uninen]

Israel doesn't have nukes :lol: unofficialy that is.

:lol: :P rofl :cantbeli:

I "think" that you actually got em all possible ones.. (Nuclear, Chemical and Biological...... and of various types of each.....)

;)

[IDFM203]

So the stupid traitor got released, and?

In truth Israel, while officially everyone was angry and appalled at him as they shpuld have been for his traitorous act not to mention the idiocy of what he tried to do, in private a lot (like me as well) werent that upset that SOME of the info came out ;)

The Arabs and those others that want to destroy us know they have no chance and its futile to even attempt to try it as these Nukes provide that awesome deterrent factor

Unlike Irans nukes, Israels are for defensive puposes only and the over thirty years of us not using that proves it!!!

Never Again really means Never Again!!!

Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

I "think" that you actually got em all possible ones.. (Nuclear, Chemical and Biological...... and of various types of each.....)

;)as does France, Britain, the U.S. Russia, etc............ and all of them with less of any national security threat as Israel faces!!

Chemical and biological, you got Syria as well (or perhaps some nuclear also ;) )

Shalom :D

[Uninen]

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap001.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap002.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap003.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap004.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap005.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap006.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap007.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap008.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap009.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap010.jpg

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/uninen/uploads/Dimona/bscap011.jpg

11 out of 60+ pictures that he took and made public........

[Fintin]

so israel has nukes....so does every other country that has someone who owns a tv.....showing us pictures doesnt make us know more.... :-*$

[Caraway]

Unlike Irans nukes, Israels are for defensive purposes only and the over thirty years of us not using that proves it!!!Shalom :D
How do you know that Iran would use it's possible nukes to offensive purposes? Do you really fear that the arab nations would wipe you off the map with nukes? If so, then the arab world would have to fear the same thing from Israel.

[MetalBoy]

I'm confused, who is this Mordechai dude.

[mustamato]

Never Again really means Never Again!!!

If the jews would have had nukes prior to world war 2, what would you have nuked?

[Caraway]

I'm confused, who is this Mordechai dude.
http://www.vanunu.freeserve.co.uk/

[Uninen]

I'm confused, who is this Mordechai dude.

He used to work at Israels "secret Dimona nuclear weapons plant"..... but was "fired" but before that he took many pics of that plant, and especially about its secrets and sold them to some UK news paper...... after that Mossad kidnapped him, and send him to jail for 18 year for treason and "spying".

Chechk the link i gave in my first post, theres lots of info about this..

[Ichhabe]

At least Israel is a responsible nation when it comes to Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons.

But when talking about Mordechai: I stay neutral. :D

[mustamato]

send him to jail for 18 year for treason and "spying"

And it can also be noted that the Israelis during all these year has not allowed
him to have any contact with other prisoners and so forth, "because of what he
know". Imagine all those years without being able to talk to somebody other
than some fatass guard that is not interested in talking.

I´m afraid that he might be severely fokked up mentally now. Maybe that is why he is
released. So much for democratic Israel. But we already know that :)


At least Israel is a responsible nation when it comes to Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons.

And except US, what have the other nations with nukes done that is so bad?

[SeanAshi]

Yeah it seems there is a double standard here, but exceptions can be made, until Israels security is guranteed, nukes serve as a deterrent and you don't see the Arab League sticking their nose in Israels business like in the past. Of course we do not want to see any country obliterated. But great photos Uninen, are those the pics Vanunu took?

[Ichhabe]

Never Again really means Never Again!!!

If the jews would have had nukes prior to world war 2, what would you have nuked?

Tell me mustamato; Wouldn't your parents give you a flamethrower when you were 6? Why the hell do you seek to start everything about Israel and the Palestinians in to a frigging flame war?

[Uninen]

Yeah,

And not mention that even after this "release" he will be under 24/7 surveilance, and not allowed to talk to "foreign people" or to travel out of Israel.... :|

Also i suspect that they wont also let him have phone / internet etc....

So basicly even when his let out of prison, he still will remain as prisoner..... in Israel. :|

[IDFM203]

Unlike Irans nukes, Israels are for defensive purposes only and the over thirty years of us not using that proves it!!!Shalom :D
How do you know that Iran would use it's possible nukes to offensive purposes? Becouse Iran’s Islamic fundamentalist leaders for years have publicly said their goal is to wipe out the whole Israel.

Israel never once ever said any such thing about Iran.

Do you really fear that the arab nations would wipe you off the map with nukes? If so, then the arab world would have to fear the same thing from Israel. No because contrary to them, Israel has never stated that it has a goal to wipe out any Arab nation and further is that we have had these weapons (allegedly ;) ) for over thirty years and yet not once have we used them!!

Shalom :D

[Uninen]

SeanAshi,

Yes they are..... ripped out of some Israel video clip i downloaded from somewhere.... (video clip of some show that showed 3D model of Dimona and of its "secrets"...)

[SeanAshi]

Some of that funding will be used to pay for the luxurious, sea-front apartment in Jaffa where Vanunu will reportedly reside. The Andromeda Hill complex has 170 flats, some worth millions of dollars, and is home to many foreigners.Well he has a nice place to stay

[IDFM203]

Never Again really means Never Again!!!

If the jews would have had nukes prior to world war 2, what would you have nuked?hmm intersting question and after much thought I think it would have been at Finland Sweden ;)

Oh and don’t worry mustamato, when we start lobbing nukes at Europe soon, we will first target Finland and Sweden and I guess then you can be the first to jump up and down and scream that you were right all along about the Jew’s and their intentions with the nukes p-) :lol:

Shalom :D

[Ichhabe]

This is to serious to joke about, but I do hope that the Israeli government hook him up with a cable and a huge wide screen TV. Or at least a deck of cards so he can play solitaire.

[SeanAshi]

Mossad could have made him vanished and avoid further more damaging Israels national security. Like I said before exceptions should be made in Israels case, Israel doesn't want to take over the arab world they want to live in peace, but you can't say the same thing about the arabs who talk about liberating Jersualem taking Israel and making it an Islamic state. besides Jerusalem was liberated in 67 ;)

[Kilgor]

Becouse Iran’s Islamic fundamentalist leaders for years have publicly said their goal is to wipe out the whole Israel.



And the PLO, HAMAS and how many other countless arab governments and terror organisations.

would MAD still work with one of the sides having a doctrine of suicide, agression and destruction at all cost ?

[ikurinturbiini]

Unlike Irans nukes, Israels are for defensive puposes only and the over thirty years of us not using that proves it!!!

In the official jargon, USSR was a Peace State of Free Workers, and the Red Army was the Army of Peace. Only West had offensive weapons...

:roll:

[Sergei]

Unlike Irans nukes, Israels are for defensive puposes only and the over thirty years of us not using that proves it!!!

In the official jargon, USSR was a Peace State of Free Workers, and the Red Army was the Army of Peace. Only West had offensive weapons...

:roll:
Considering that in the Russian civil war, Soviet Russia was invaded by 14 states along with white Russians, and then 25 years later by some more Germans, Romanians, Italians, Spaniards and other Scandinavian SS-men, who altogether killed over 30 million in two wars, you wouldn't consider a little bit of defensive paranoia a bad thing, would you?
I mean the threat from the West was real and they did attempt it twice to destroy the Soviet/Russian state.

[ikurinturbiini]

Unlike Irans nukes, Israels are for defensive puposes only and the over thirty years of us not using that proves it!!!

In the official jargon, USSR was a Peace State of Free Workers, and the Red Army was the Army of Peace. Only West had offensive weapons...

:roll:
Considering that in the Russian civil war, Soviet Russia was invaded by 14 states along with white Russians, and then 25 years later by some more Germans, Romanians, Italians, Spaniards and other Scandinavian SS-men, who altogether killed over 30 million in two wars, you wouldn't consider a little bit of defensive paranoia a bad thing, would you?
I mean the threat from the West was real and they did attempt it twice to destroy the Soviet/Russian state.

I'm not questioning a state's right to defend itself. I'm mocking the Orwellian doubletalk characteristic to the moribund CCCP of my childhood and youth.

I mean, the Red Army a defensive force? Gimmie a break!

I will suppress the urge to mention the wars started by CCCP to "maintain peace."

Back to nukes: here (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/rsa/nuke/stumpf.htm) is an interesting story about South Africa's nuclear deterrent. They gave it up. Some food for thought - this is why SA wanted a nuke in the first place:


Increasing international restrictions on the supply of conventional arms against South Africa, primarily due to its internal policies, also made the argument that the country virtually had no alternative but to develop its own nuclear deterrent to counter an external threat, probably convincing to the Government of the time.

There is no shortage of conventional weapons, and Israeli military is superior to any and all of its neighbours' armies. Then there's Uncle Sam who gives Israel permission to attack other nations with impunity: read this (http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeitung/meinung/333962.html) article in German. In short, it states that Israel can attack Syria anytime, anywhere, and nobody will interfere. Arabs will cry blue murder, US will veto any attempt to stop Israel in the UN Security Council.

All this while Israel has nukes and others don't.

Who's threatening who?

[Javehn]

Who's threatening who?

Tottally wrong point . You know why ? Couple of reasons .

First of all , population of Israel is about 5,000,000 , and the population of only Egypt is aprox 60 , 000 , 000 people . Only one Egypt , that's more then 10 times . Why is that important ? Hint : Man power for the Army .

Syria population is more then 17 , 000 , 000 people (that's 3 and plus times ) . Why is that important ? See above .

Even Lebanon , smallest country in the middle east , have almost the same number of people , 3 million . Jordain have aprox the same number of population , but the coutry is way way bigger then Israel . Theyhave strategic deapth , something we don't have .

When it's built , it ment as a MAD factor weapon , and even in the most hardest war for Israel (1973) , the wepon weren't used . When was the last time any country with Nuclear weapon had on a wage of destruction ? The country that did used Nuclears , was affraid to loose less then one percent of It's population . I would say we did the best job of kipping the d*ck inside our pence , wouldn't you say so ?

Israel has very big intollerance for loosing soldiers (because of small population) , and it was surrounded at the time with 3 enemies , and other Arab countries willing to send reinforsments . Like i said , it was ment as MAD , and nothing else .

Those days , the reactor almost doesn't produce Nuclear weapon , IMHO . By the way , what it does produce ? Probably that Germanium window your Leopard tanks using for night vision . Or the windows for the AA Missiles (There were program about it while ago in Israel ) . I would say that in matter of years , it would stop produce Nuclear arms .


I personally find fascinatic that fear and interest in Israel , that's so over grown . Is that form of Antisemetism ? Apparantly , the more i read the forum , the more i understand that non based over exadurating fear , from what ? One of the smallest countries in the middle east . You can't even find it on the attlass .
Chimical , and Biolocial , Uninen ? I know you read the "conspirasy forum" ("abovetopsecret" rofl ) , i visited there , but not everything in the world is fairytail .

[Caraway]

When it's built , it ment as a MAD factor weapon , and even in the most hardest war for Israel (1973) , the wepon weren't used.
What if the Syrian tanks had broken your defences in 1973, as they almost did, how about then? I believe that your attitudes would have been towards using the nukes.

[Helly]

When it's built , it ment as a MAD factor weapon , and even in the most hardest war for Israel (1973) , the wepon weren't used.
What if the Syrian tanks had broken your defences in 1973, as they almost did, how about then? I believe that your attitudes would have been towards using the nukes.

What if... what if... what's up with the "what if" BS?

What if you're an Israeli?

[yiorgo]

Let me ask everyone this........especially the Jews posting here......if its not such a big deal, if we have Nothing to fear from isreal with these Nukes(and yes we know you have them) then WHY keep it a secret?? why was this gentleman arrested and sentenced to 18 yrs????.......FIRST off WHY the hell do u people have nukes in the first place???? becouse your an ALLIE? or becouse it is a deterant to other countries??? BULL****...that is the exact reason why so many other countries are pissed off at the US, you cant point fingers at one country for having supposably WMD....and turn a blind eye to another and let them do what they want....and really i dont want to hear your bull**** on how WE HAVE HAD these Nukes for soooooo long and have NEVER used them.........DOESNT MATTER!!! you shouldnt have the damn things in the first place....just like Iran, Iraq, China.......so use WMD to go into one country and let another do what they want hmmmmmm sounds REALLY fair.

[Flagg]

Those days , the reactor almost doesn't produce Nuclear weapon , IMHO . By the way , what it does produce ? Probably that Germanium window your Leopard tanks using for night vision . Or the windows for the AA Missiles (There were program about it while ago in Israel ) . I would say that in matter of years , it would stop produce Nuclear arms .

OF course it will stop producing weapons grade fissionable material...how much do you bloody need? It's been cranking it out for over 3 decades.



I personally find fascinatic that fear and interest in Israel , that's so over grown . Is that form of Antisemetism ? Apparantly , the more i read the forum , the more i understand that non based over exadurating fear , from what ? One of the smallest countries in the middle east . You can't even find it on the attlass .

I'm tired of hearing about the anti-semitism card or any other rascism/discrimination card for that matter.

If it's not truly warranted.....don't even think about pulling it out.

A big fear, if I were an Arab Muslim is the consistent policy of preemptive strikes by Israel......argue all you want about the justification for it(that's not my point), I'd be scared sh!tless of living near someone/something Israel is targeting and not even knowing it.....that's fear

I also think a big part of the issue that hasn't been appropriately conveyed yet in this thread is the seeming double standard that exists regarding nukes.

The 3rd world(including 1 billion Muslims) sees it's OK for Israel to have nukes, but their historical adversaries are punished for developing a deterrent.

You can all argue this issue until you die....the problem remains that the 3rd world perception of this double standard is extremely negative.

As far as Vanunu goes.....I think it's a significant political embarrassment for Israel.....what actual "loss" did Israel suffer from his leaks? None that I can think of Should he have done it? No......but he certainly doesn't seem to have harmed Israel's security.....should he have been punished ....yes...but it seems extremely severe treatment.

If anything, and I believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread...Israel may have gained from his leaks......it lent further credibility to the don't F with Israel concept

[FDF_Hemppis]

Never Again really means Never Again!!!

If the jews would have had nukes prior to world war 2, what would you have nuked?hmm intersting question and after much thought I think it would have been at Finland Sweden ;)

Oh and don’t worry mustamato, when we start lobbing nukes at Europe soon, we will first target Finland and Sweden and I guess then you can be the first to jump up and down and scream that you were right all along about the Jew’s and their intentions with the nukes p-) :lol:

Shalom :D
HEY!!!! Go point your nukes somewhere else, we don't want 'em here!:slap:

I mean, IF you can nuke Sweden without the fallout hitting Finland, then go for it ;)
But we Finns actually wouldn't that much like Israeli nukes to blow up here, we'd get mad, and we would have to take over your country :D :D

[SeanAshi]

US will veto any attempt to stop Israel in the UN Security Council.

Russia has used its veto far more then the United States.

[Caraway]

When it's built , it ment as a MAD factor weapon , and even in the most hardest war for Israel (1973) , the wepon weren't used.
What if the Syrian tanks had broken your defences in 1973, as they almost did, how about then? I believe that your attitudes would have been towards using the nukes.

What if... what if... what's up with the "what if" BS?

What if you're an Israeli?

I'd have probably used the nukes and poisoned my homeland (and people) with radioactive pollution for the next 10000 years?
Nowadays terrorism is your number 1 threat. You don't fight them with nukes, do you? You have the best equipped and trained army in the Middle-East, I think you can handle anyother army without using nukes.

[SeanAshi]

FIRST off WHY the hell do u people have nukes in the first place???? becouse your an ALLIE? or becouse it is a deterant to other countries??? BULL****Because Israel is surrounded by around 300 million arab/persian muslims who want to destroy the jewish state, yiorgo? you don't like it? well guess what..theres not a thing you can do about it, go crawl back under that bottle of vodka.

[Javehn]

I'm tired of hearing about the anti-semitism card or any other rascism/discrimination card for that matter.


Really ?? You are tired ?? Poor baby .
And i am not tired to read how Israel is evil , in almost every single thread ? My country takes about 1 percent of middle east , but people talk about it , like it's center of the world . Like it's the axis of the evil itself . You don't agree ? It's not true ? I am inventing this ?

Well , sorry , if i did put the Anti semitism "card" , i am writting about it first the first time . But i had ****ing enough to read every single ****ing thread on this ****ing board , how buit are we .

When your country would be smoothed like that , i would like to see , how much you will wine about it .

[Flagg]

Really ?? You are tired ?? Poor baby .
And i am not tired to read how Israel is evil , in almost every single thread ? My country takes about 1 percent of middle east , but people talk about it , like it's center of the world . You don't agree ? It's not true ? I am inventing this ?

Well , sorry , if i did put the Anti semitism "card" , i am writting about it first the first time . But i had f*** enough to read every single f*** thread on this f*** board , how buit are we .

When your country would be smoothed like that , i would like to see , how much you will wine about it .

Calm down and take a deep breath before you open your mouth and/or type.

What I wrote was:


I'm tired of hearing about the anti-semitism card or any other rascism/discrimination card for that matter.

If it's not truly warranted.....don't even think about pulling it out.

Was it warranted? I don't think so.......

Did I call Israel evil?

I don't think so......

If my home/country was involved in some of the most prominent conflicts of the last 50+ years and was constantly in the global headlines as a combatant in a seemingly never-ending conflict that has ramifications that impact the rest of the world....I'd have a bit thicker skin.

Try not to get so worked up over it...getting emotional will affect your jusgement and ability to produce an effective and cohesive argument/response.

[dacanadianbomb]

I think the double standard that has been addressed here is a little bit misundertood.
Yes one country can have WMD and will get the crap kicked out of it, another will and they will be treated nice.

The difference is the following : What is the chance they will use it on you ?
Israel attacking Finland ? Britan ? Germany ? The US ?
I dont think so.

So the superpowers of the world dont have to worry about Israel ( Not implying that the above mentioned countries are superpowers.).
The only people that would have to worry about them is the middle east.
Its controlled , not in the hands of maniacs.
The comparison is a bit like apples and pears, but owning a firearm is the same. A firearm is dangerous in the hand of a unprofessional psycholigically unstable angry person , yet perfectly safe in the hands of a stable minded, rational , professional handler.

North Korea on the other hand is a danger. But the World seems to handle the situation like with a hot potatoe. Iraq- WMD- gotta go , North korea - WMD- A psycho at its helm- lets go the diplomatic route.
That is a double standard.

Why not punish this guy severely? He gave away his countries secrets.
Security via obscurity is not the one and only security method, but in correlation with other measures it is vital to the overall security.
I think the only reason they didnt kill him is because he was Israeli. Or maybe not ?

[Javehn]

Really Flagg ? Because i had enough producing normal answers here . It's not the first post i do here , you see .

[Uninen]

Theres is actually a major problem about these "nukes" even in Israel..... as you see people (Israelis) nor even Knesset knows who actually controls them....

[Uninen]

Really Flagg ? Because i had enough producing normal answers here . It's not the first post i do here , you see .

Yes "Javehn", you see "Flagg" really wasnt saying anything "positive" or "negative" to a way or to a another...

Was just stating couple of well "formed" observations about the subject......

;)

[Flagg]

Why not punish this guy severely? He gave away his countries secrets.
Security via obscurity is not the one and only security method, but in correlation with other measures it is vital to the overall security.
I think the only reason they didnt kill him is because he was Israeli. Or maybe not ?

I disagree......if Vanunu had endangered or impaired Israel's security, what was the specific damage he caused?

The world(or at least it's political leadership) assumed Israel had a comprehensive nuclear capability......Vanunu validated it....so what?

At the cost of public embarrassment Israel's national security likely improved as a result of concrete proof of it's nuclear capability.....any remaining potential opponents who denied the existence of Israel's ultimate deterrent would have been proven wrong.

I agree he should have been punished......and I understand it may have been necessary to punish him to deter others in the future, but the sentence and the conditions of his sentence appear overly harsh.

I would be keen to learn if any who support the release of Jonathan Pollard opposed the release of Vanunu...

As it would appear they both acted as a result of ideology(not personal gain) and has caused no proven damage to national security.

I would find it quite ethically challenging for someone to support the incarceration of one but not the other.

[MolliG]

What is Israel's nuclear deterrent composed of? Are we talking free-fall bombs, 'short-ranged' missile systems and/or ICBMs?

[Flagg]

What is Israel's nuclear deterrent composed of? Are we talking free-fall bombs, 'short-ranged' missile systems and/or ICBMs?

It's entirely speculation, but I believe it's safe to assume Israel maintains an effective nuclear triad:

Air Delivered (F15 and/or F16)
MRBM (Jericho II)
SLCM (flash new subs launching Israeli made Popeye missiles)

I would also think Israel has the capability of constructing SADMs(suitcase nukes) if it desired.

I think any possible hope of Israel being overrun without an extremely high likelihood of nuclear retaliation went out the window for good with the deployment of the German made Dolphin subs a couple of years ago.

It's a shame though.....the amount of money invested in and still required annually to maintain the capability must be huge. It's money that could be spent on further developing Israel's technology industry through R&D...it could mean the difference between catching and missing the next tech wave(genetics and nanotech).

[Javehn]

It's a shame though.....the amount of money invested in and still required annually to maintain the capability must be huge. It's money that could be spent on further developing Israel's technology industry through R&D...it could mean the difference between catching and missing the next tech wave(genetics and nanotech).

I allready wrote , that it's also have civilian research center attached (except the one in Nachal Shorek ) . I allready mentioned several things made on the factory , i just don't remember exactly what else they do there .

[Uninen]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040421/i/r3083862792.jpg

Its official..... :P

[ikurinturbiini]

Who's threatening who?

Tottally wrong point . You know why ? Couple of reasons .

First of all , population of Israel is about 5,000,000 , and the population of only Egypt is aprox 60 , 000 , 000 people . Only one Egypt , that's more then 10 times . Why is that important ? Hint : Man power for the Army . .

Manpower, schmanpower. Israel has the US.

But I totally see your point, and I understand why Israel wanted a bomb.

[ikurinturbiini]

US will veto any attempt to stop Israel in the UN Security Council.

Russia has used its veto far more then the United States.

And?

[Flagg]

I allready wrote , that it's also have civilian research center attached (except the one in Nachal Shorek ) . I allready mentioned several things made on the factory , i just don't remember exactly what else they do there .

I don't deny the fact other commercial money-making opportunities could be pursued to bring in money to cover the massive overheads of running the Damona facility.

If I was plant management I'd be looking for way to help pay those big bills as well!

The point I was making is that if Israel eliminated or even dramatically reduced it's nuclear arsenal it would save HEAPS of money:

vetting and training people to operate as part of a nuclear weapons delivery system costs big money...remember.....occasionally the chain of command must practice using them(in the theoretical sense) that means a big time(therefor money) commitment by the chain of command

maintaining nuclear deterrents is expensive....maintaining a nuclear triad is huge money..as in many billions of dollars to develop and field......and a figure of at least "hundreds of millions" to maintain every year.

Money that could be spent on developing other commerical products, creating jobs, making money, improving the standard of living of Israelis.......

A nuclear deterrent could be viewed as the ultimate insurance policy.....but it carries a very expensive premium

Using that money to invest in Israeli business...that's an investment that will return even more money..and help secure Israel's financial future

that's what I'm talking about ;)

[gilgoul]

too bad we are a democracy, i could have been so simple to "disapear" the traitor.

[Haiw]

So the stupid traitor got released, and?

In truth Israel, while officially everyone was angry and appalled at him as they shpuld have been for his traitorous act not to mention the idiocy of what he tried to do, in private a lot (like me as well) werent that upset that SOME of the info came out ;)

The Arabs and those others that want to destroy us know they have no chance and its futile to even attempt to try it as these Nukes provide that awesome deterrent factor

Unlike Irans nukes, Israels are for defensive puposes only and the over thirty years of us not using that proves it!!!

Never Again really means Never Again!!!

Shalom :D
Gotta agree with you here. With the Arab nations having knowledge of the nukes they might have stopped an attack that might otherwise have happened, resulting in the usage of nukes. IMO it's unfair that the guy's been thrown in jail for 18 years. In fact the guy might be responsible for the lack of all-out wars around Israël since 1973.

[IDFM203]

Listen Israel nukes are solely for defensive purposes on a tiny nation that is surrounded by over 250 million where still most IMO still ant to see the whole Israel destroyed and nukes provide a added deterrent from them even trying again.

The fact that Israel has already had them for over thirty years and hasn’t used it once is proof that what I just said is true about only for defensive purposes. Some people here are asking all these what if Israel decides blah blah again if we didn’t decide for the past thirty some years to strike offensively we aren’t going to do so tomorrow.


And yeah I guess the same fear can be with the U.S. Russia, Britian , France etc…and all of them have nukes with much less vital security at stake as what Israel faces.


Another point I hear people make is that Israel is a very strong nation conventionally and as such we don’t need nukes well IMO that argument is missing the whole point of what deterrent means.

Our nukes are more for a deterrent for them to even start a war then to strike back after we are hit or almost defeated,

In other words we don’t even want a war to begin with and our nukes provide that deterrent from the Arabs even thinking again of starting a war to annihilate us for they realize that they cant.

For that deterrent is huge for even if Israel can win a conventional war the amount of lives loss to our tiny nation will be huge and its something that we want to avoid altogether,



Lastly I repeat Iran is an offensive threat as indeed Iran’s Islamic fundamentalist leaders for years have publicly said their goal is to wipe out the whole Israel.

Israel never once ever said any such thing about Iran now has ever said that it has intentions to annihlte any arab nation as they have said they want to do to Israel

Shalom :D

[Haiw]

Never Again really means Never Again!!!

If the jews would have had nukes prior to world war 2, what would you have nuked?
They should have nuked Scandinavia off the map, just to make sure you would never exist.

[IDFM203]

So the stupid traitor got released, and?

In truth Israel, while officially everyone was angry and appalled at him as they shpuld have been for his traitorous act not to mention the idiocy of what he tried to do, in private a lot (like me as well) werent that upset that SOME of the info came out ;)

The Arabs and those others that want to destroy us know they have no chance and its futile to even attempt to try it as these Nukes provide that awesome deterrent factor

Unlike Irans nukes, Israels are for defensive puposes only and the over thirty years of us not using that proves it!!!

Never Again really means Never Again!!!

Shalom :D
Gotta agree with you here. With the Arab nations having knowledge of the nukes they might have stopped an attack that might otherwise have happened, resulting in the usage of nukes. IMO it's unfair that the guy's been thrown in jail for 18 years. In fact the guy might be responsible for the lack of all-out wars around Israël since 1973.indeed IMO the knowledge of nukes more then anything is what drove Egypt to sign that “peace” deal and for Syria and others to not have attacked in thirty some years.

As for vannunu, well like I said I don’t exactly mind others knowing, though he did deserve to lcoked up for he was a traitor for he was assigned to this facility and there are strict rules that everyone knows and he broke them and he did so by going out of Israel and releasing some of our military secrets. That is a traitorous act!!

Also his intention was not as mine and he IMO wanted to weaken Israel and with our security situation anyone that attempts to weaken us deserves to get punished (that’s the least of what should have happened to him)

Understand that what he intended and what I am happy about aren’t the same thing but indeed some twist of fate, he did it and I am not so upset that what he released came out!!..but thats just me ;)

Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

The point I was making is that if Israel eliminated or even dramatically reduced it's nuclear arsenal it would save HEAPS of money:

Indeed and believe me if we eliminated a lot of military programs it would also save us money.

oh and come to think of it if we eliminated the draft that would also save us money.

My point is that indeed all this will save us money but when you are a small nation that is still surrounded by nations that still have large populations that want to see us destroyed, well we have no choice but to maintain a huge deterrent factor over any benefits of saving money.

Indeed the price that Israel’s pays for its mere existence is a huge price and burden on Israel to constantly pay.

Shalom :D

[gilgoul]

)[/quote]

In the best of the world i would tend to agree with you,, but therre is a problem :
from morocco to indonesia, there is a little more thn one billion people who wouldn`t shed a tear if we were to "disapear", and at least 2 countries are trying very hard to develop nuclear capacities, Iran and Pakistan, while all the other own or owned other WMD, like Syria, Egypt, Lybia etc..
Let s not forget that the Israeli nuclear program is an old one, started in the 50 s, born from the determination to not suffer an other holocaust, and to take down whoever would ever try to.
The economic cost of maintiaining those capacities is huge, but was justified as long as the soviet union was sponsoring th military activities of our neighbours, flloding the area with hardware and modern weaponry.
Today, the arsenal, real or imagined, is still a "ghost" with no officil existence.
And the threat is still present, what would prevent Iran from nuking us, if not for the threat of being themselve nuked in turn.
TO finish, it`s always funny to see the european hypocrisy demnstrated once again.
When after WW2 every single country rushed to aquire, develop and build WMd, and found it pretty normal and positive.
As long as the threat remained, and even after, nuclear countries are keeping their secret, denying access to investigations, develloping smaler bombs, and in the same time have the chutzpah to give lessons to Israel, while they are still out of reach of Iranian ballistics missiles, or syrians chemical scuds (not counting the Irakis WMD that Damascus hides).
The day every country will open their arsenal and dismantle their capacities, starting by France and UK, I will join the rank of the "anti nuke" dreaming of bringing those huges ressources to the promotion of whatever good cause is in need of financing, but as long as there s a single hostile regime missile pointed on me or my country, i don`t want my governement to lower the guard, and i want it able to deliver and vaporise whoever would dare to launch a nuclear weapon at my country.

[cut]

what's the point in having defensive nukes if you keep them a secret?

[S'13]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1082518208480


UK: 5 anti-nuclear protesters break into army base
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
LONDON

Five anti-nuclear protesters were arrested Wednesday after breaking into a military command center to draw attention to Britain's nuclear arsenal and mark the release of Israeli nuclear whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu.

The activists wore Vanunu masks as they entered the base, the group said.

Police said three men and two women had been arrested on suspicion of criminal damage after breaching the perimeter fence at the Northwood base north of London, a major NATO command center. They were being questioned at a police station nearby, Hertfordshire Police said.

The peace group Trident Ploughshares said the protest had been timed to coincide with the release of Vanunu, freed Wednesday after almost 18 years in prison.

"Today, we acted to continue with the vital work started by Vanunu, and to expose the hypocrisy and secrecy that is government policy towards Britain's own weapons of mass destruction," said spokesman Joss Garman.

:bash: :fork:

[Uninen]

what's the point in having defensive nukes if you keep them a secret?

Well you know.. the evil world is full of bad anti-semites that had they known would have come and taken the nukes away.. or something.. right? :cantbeli: WRONG!

[S'13]

what's the point in having defensive nukes if you keep them a secret?

It's much better when our enemies will be unsure of what we have...

[S'13]

what's the point in having defensive nukes if you keep them a secret?

Well you know.. the evil world is full of bad anti-semites that had they known would have come and taken the nukes away.. or something.. right? :cantbeli: WRONG!

:|

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203


Lastly I repeat Iran is an offensive threat as indeed Iran’s Islamic fundamentalist leaders for years have publicly said their goal is to wipe out the whole Israel.

Some Mullahs can say what their want, but their word doesn’t count, it’s their opinion not something official from the president or so.

The only official statement from Iran actually is from the defence minister which said that IF Iran gets attacked by Israel they will get an "unimaginable counter attack". The Revolutionary Guard sometimes write on their missiles that America and Israel can do nothing against them and so on but that’s some propaganda not more.

"Israel never once ever said any such thing about Iran now has ever said that it has intentions to annihlte any arab nation as they have said they want to do to Israel "

Israeli defence minister said few months ago that Israel prepared everything to attack Iranian Nuclear installations if Israel thinks it is needed, Iran never said something like this and what Arab country’s says has nothing to do with Iran.

Finally to the country to Israel, it is not proven that Iran has a nuclear weapon program, the whole program looks civilian, Israel’s Nuclear program on the other hand was right from the start like the Iraqi one a plutonium breeder reactor and to 80% not civilian. The same Mullahs which sometimes say Israel should get destroyed say that nuclear weapons are dirty and unislamic. So never say that Iran has a nuclear weapon program and is seeking one, if you have no proofs.

[Uninen]

Not including actual terrorists and some nations / peoples that "you have made mad" (your Arab neighbors...) the world is actually a quite friendly place for "you"... to Israel....

And just because people sometimes "bitch about" (IE Swedes....) some of "your" actions doesnt mean that they are anti-semites and ****..... :|

IE i think that people do understand that its vital for you to fight "terrorists" and "terrorism", but then again was it really wise to kill 2 of top HAMAS leaders? I mean that just made all the rest of Palestinians also mad to you, if they already werent........ :|

And about " -=P=- ":s post.....

The Iranian mullahs...... they just talk, but really dont mean ****, nor they would be willing able or daring enough to actually make anything about it......

And also if / when they get their nukes..... i think that they would also only use them as "self protection"..... after all USA has been (basicly) openly hostile against Islamic Iran ever since the fall of Shah.. :|

Anyhow, how active has Iran been in wars against Israel? Cause i really cant remember them sending any units / aircrafts etc during neither 1967 or 1973 war......

Only thing (supposedly) in which Iran has taken part to anti-Israeli operations is in (supposed) support of Hizbollah...... and even that is "only" a "war by proxy"...... Lebanese proxy, which again has blenty of reasons to be mad..... IE you occupied their nation, and contributed to the prolonged civil war in there..... :|

But what has happened in past is history, and i seriously hope that this thing called peace will reach every corner of mid-east ASAP!

[Mark_Aspen]

Gilgoul hit it on the head.

Let s not forget that the Israeli nuclear program is an old one, started in the 50 s,...
Think of historical context. Israel created her deterrent with her closest strategic ally of the time -- France. There was no strategic relationship with the US, no talk of being anyone's mutual ally. From the Israeli standpoint, there wasn't a choice, no one (meaning any other country) was going to step up to the plate on Israel's behalf as the military and diplomatic situations changed.
The backdrop of the Israeli nuclear program was the 1955 Czech arms deal with Egypt that precipitated the 56 war. In that operation Britain would barely acknowledge that the war was coordinatedwith the French and Israelis, such was British disdain for Israel. Further proof supporting Israel's contention that she had "no choice -- ein breira" was the inability of the international community, despite US and UK efforts, to break the Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran in May, 1967. As anyone knows, a blockade is a perfectly legitimate "causis belli", and the blockade alone justifies Israel's going to war in 1967.

Israel didn't effectively come under the US umbrella until A. the 73 airlift, and B. the Reagan years. I for one, think we'd be better off not being so tied to the US.

As to the prosecution of Vanunu. I hink most of you have hit it on the head: reinforcing the image (or reality) of screwing around with Israel. I also think there's an Element of Puzo's Godfather in our response:
"Fredo ... I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again. Ever."

[citizen-k]

send him to jail for 18 year for treason and "spying"

And it can also be noted that the Israelis during all these year has not allowed
him to have any contact with other prisoners and so forth, "because of what he
know". Imagine all those years without being able to talk to somebody other
than some fatass guard that is not interested in talking.

I´m afraid that he might be severely fokked up mentally now. Maybe that is why he is
released. So much for democratic Israel. But we already know that :)


At least Israel is a responsible nation when it comes to Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons.

And except US, what have the other nations with nukes done that is so bad?

He was a mental case BEFORE he was arrested...

A typical "lets use the local dumbass to distribute information" thing...

[citizen-k]

Not including actual terrorists and some nations / peoples that "you have made mad" (your Arab neighbors...) the world is actually a quite friendly place for "you"... to Israel....

And just because people sometimes "bitch about" (IE Swedes....) some of "your" actions doesnt mean that they are anti-semites and ****..... :|

IE i think that people do understand that its vital for you to fight "terrorists" and "terrorism", but then again was it really wise to kill 2 of top HAMAS leaders? I mean that just made all the rest of Palestinians also mad to you, if they already werent........ :|

And about " -=P=- ":s post.....

The Iranian mullahs...... they just talk, but really dont mean ****, nor they would be willing able or daring enough to actually make anything about it......

And also if / when they get their nukes..... i think that they would also only use them as "self protection"..... after all USA has been (basicly) openly hostile against Islamic Iran ever since the fall of Shah.. :|

Anyhow, how active has Iran been in wars against Israel? Cause i really cant remember them sending any units / aircrafts etc during neither 1967 or 1973 war......

Only thing (supposedly) in which Iran has taken part to anti-Israeli operations is in (supposed) support of Hizbollah...... and even that is "only" a "war by proxy"...... Lebanese proxy, which again has blenty of reasons to be mad..... IE you occupied their nation, and contributed to the prolonged civil war in there..... :|

But what has happened in past is history, and i seriously hope that this thing called peace will reach every corner of mid-east ASAP!

open a browser window
go to htttp://www.google.com
type "Hizbullah"
click search
read
come back and say "oh, I'm soory, I didn't know"

[Uninen]

citizen-k,

I know very much about Hizbollah and the "stunts" they pull, im just not all that convionced that Iran actually "controls" them like its claimed.

Sure they supply them with money and weapons, but do they actually "pull the strings" as Israelis are suggesting.... i doubt it.

And also, its no that different that what you did with Lebanese christian militias and others, during the Lebanese civil war...... you supported them, and they killed Lebanese civilians and soldiers, just like Hizbollah is doing to Israelis.

[Uninen]

And im also aware of Mossad's motto: "By way of deception shall you Conquer." ;)

[citizen-k]

And im also aware of Mossad's motto: "By way of deception shall you Conquer." ;)

The real motto is to your left ;)

[W(M)D]

And im also aware of Mossad's motto: "By way of deception shall you Conquer." ;)

The real motto is to your left ;)

Unfortunately he is too dumb to read :D Why do you guys try to explain and put over Israel's standpoint all the time to these people. People are either for or against, and those against like him are never convinced with all the arguements about good and bad, right and wrong, etc.
They believe only what they want to believe and no amount of putting over the point will make any difference, even if they saw some sense in the arguement today they would forget by tomorrow.
They flourish in their own ignorance and preconceptions, some of which are by way of their education, background, religion/beliefs but usually it is ingrained in their DNA.

[Ian H]

@W(M)D: If we accepted that there would be no point discussing anything.


I've noticed several Israelis mention that you feel surrounded by
"one billion people who wouldn`t shed a tear if we were to "disapear" to quote gilgoul, and without getting into how accurate this perception is (because I don't know) it doesn't really matter. It is the political leadership of a country that decides whether to go to war or not, and whilst the 'Arab street' might be quite keen to, their leaders know they wouldn't stand a chance militarily, and that they would be ostracised politically by international society.

To quote Javehn:

"First of all , population of Israel is about 5,000,000 , and the population of only Egypt is aprox 60 , 000 , 000 people . Only one Egypt , that's more then 10 times . Why is that important ? Hint : Man power for the Army .

Syria population is more then 17 , 000 , 000 people (that's 3 and plus times ) . Why is that important ? See above .

Even Lebanon , smallest country in the middle east , have almost the same number of people , 3 million . Jordain have aprox the same number of population , but the coutry is way way bigger then Israel . Theyhave strategic deapth , something we don't have . "

Strategically this makes sense, you are outnumbered, and have space against you, but diplomacy is also a factor.
Egypt (your main enemy in 67 and 73) has now signed a peace treaty with you, and in order to invade would have to get past US units in the Sinai. With Egypt now reliant on the US for military equipment, I can't see any Egyptian politician seriously advocating invasion. Jordan has no incentive to invade, they sat out the 73 war, why would they now attack, when Israel is much stronger than it was then. Lebanon is by no means strong enough to invade you, and nor is Hizbollah, they are a threat to your peace and security along the border area sure, but not your existence. Syria would therefore be isolated if it tried to invade you, and I doubt anyone in that state is stupid enough to try going it alone. Iran is a different matter, if only because of the rhetoric coming out of it. It doesn't share a border with you, so to attack you conventionally (ie. not using terrorist methods) would require it to at least inform one of the states previously mentioned in order to avoid it shooting down any aircraft/missiles that entered its airspace. A land invasion is unlikely for the same reasons.

The main physical threats Israel faces now (ignoring rhetoric) seem to be from low level terrorist/guerilla (in terms of tactics, not politics) organizations like Hamas or Hizbollah, against which nuclear weapons are pretty much useless.

You've won. They may not say so, but every Arab state has accepted your existence on one level or another.

Nuclear weapons are useful to have as an added insurance policy, and I have no problem with them, but I can't understand why Sharon doesn't just say 'we have nukes', it won't change anything strategically because everyone knows about them already, and should end at least some criticism.

I've quoted a few people here, nothing personal intended, just picking up on points made.

[AirZone]

And im also aware of Mossad's motto: "By way of deception shall you Conquer." ;)

The real motto is to your left ;)

Unfortunately he is too dumb to read :D Why do you guys try to explain and put over Israel's standpoint all the time to these people. People are either for or against, and those against like him are never convinced with all the arguements about good and bad, right and wrong, etc.
They believe only what they want to believe and no amount of putting over the point will make any difference, even if they saw some sense in the arguement today they would forget by tomorrow.
They flourish in their own ignorance and preconceptions, some of which are by way of their education, background, religion/beliefs but usually it is ingrained in their DNA.

I thing its one of the smartest things i ever read in a while.. well put ! :hug:

[Mark_Aspen]

The Mossad motto is actually:

By way of deception, thou shall wage war.

[big80a2]

Not really going in to everything...
but if Vannunu knew/knows more about the subject than it would be a bigger danger. He could for istance sell his knowledge.
You proberly all heard about that pakistani selling his knowledge to "BAD" states. Well he got the info from a dutch company and they didn't acted against him even after warnings.. :bash:
Well he also broke the code of in this case the company. And maybe they thought he wouldn't be as smart ass as he was, and so he could go his one way...
So locking Vannunu ain't that of a bad Idee.
Maybe the way it happend is open for debate.

It's in Israels interest nor to confirm they have WMS or to denai it

[ikurinturbiini]

Listen Israel nukes are solely for defensive purposes on a tiny nation that is surrounded by over 250 million where still most IMO still ant to see the whole Israel destroyed and nukes provide a added deterrent from them even trying again.

The fact that Israel has already had them for over thirty years and hasn?t used it once is proof that what I just said is true about only for defensive purposes. Some people here are asking all these what if Israel decides blah blah again if we didn?t decide for the past thirty some years to strike offensively we aren?t going to do so tomorrow.


And yeah I guess the same fear can be with the U.S. Russia, Britian , France etc?and all of them have nukes with much less vital security at stake as what Israel faces.


Another point I hear people make is that Israel is a very strong nation conventionally and as such we don?t need nukes well IMO that argument is missing the whole point of what deterrent means.

Our nukes are more for a deterrent for them to even start a war then to strike back after we are hit or almost defeated,

In other words we don?t even want a war to begin with and our nukes provide that deterrent from the Arabs even thinking again of starting a war to annihilate us for they realize that they cant.

For that deterrent is huge for even if Israel can win a conventional war the amount of lives loss to our tiny nation will be huge and its something that we want to avoid altogether,



Lastly I repeat Iran is an offensive threat as indeed Iran?s Islamic fundamentalist leaders for years have publicly said their goal is to wipe out the whole Israel.

Israel never once ever said any such thing about Iran now has ever said that it has intentions to annihlte any arab nation as they have said they want to do to Israel

Shalom :D

I'm sure you are being sincere when you say all this. However, judging from the way some Israelis and (I dare say) most Arabs have behaved, neither of them should have nukes. A religious nutcase is a religious nutcase, regardless of the religion. God knows there are many on either side of this conflict.

Soviets had nukes for over forty years and they did not use them. Did that make Soviet Union a reasonable, responsible player in world politics?

Giving up nukes now would be a PR coup for Israel, taking some wind out of anti-semites' sails. Your security would not be jeopardized and you would gain moral high ground.

Just a thought.

[S'13]

I'm sure you are being sincere when you say all this. However, judging from the way some Israelis and (I dare say) most Arabs have behaved, neither of them should have nukes. A religious nutcase is a religious nutcase, regardless of the religion. God knows there are many on either side of this conflict.

Soviets had nukes for over forty years and they did not use them. Did that make Soviet Union a reasonable, responsible player in world politics?

You should take into account that Israel is a western democracy, unlike our Arab neighbors and the USSR.


Giving up nukes now would be a PR coup for Israel, taking some wind out of anti-semites' sails. Your security would not be jeopardized and you would gain moral high ground.

I rather be alive and insure the existence of my country while not having the sympathy of many than been dead and having my country destroyed while having the sympathy of many.

No one can ensure the existence and security of our country but us...

[ExtraT]

... judging from the way some Israelis and (I dare say) most Arabs have behaved, neither of them should have nukes. A religious nutcase is a religious nutcase, regardless of the religion. God knows there are many on either side of this conflict.


I'm afraid you are mistaken, if you think that religion is the main factor in this conflict. And it certainly isn't for Israel, where most of population is not religious.

Religion is only a tool, and only in the hands of Arab nations.

Israel has the right to WMDs, because it's a responsible country. The structure of it's government ensures that such weapons will never be used in violation of an accepted doctrine, and the doctrine is built with a strict adherence to international law.

In short, there can be no correlation between Israeli WMDs and any Arab nation's WMDs, and presence of WMD in Israeli arsenals can't serve as an excuse for Arabs obtaining WMDs as well.

[ikurinturbiini]

I'm sure you are being sincere when you say all this. However, judging from the way some Israelis and (I dare say) most Arabs have behaved, neither of them should have nukes. A religious nutcase is a religious nutcase, regardless of the religion. God knows there are many on either side of this conflict.

Soviets had nukes for over forty years and they did not use them. Did that make Soviet Union a reasonable, responsible player in world politics?

You should take into account that Israel is a western democracy, unlike our Arab neighbors and the USSR.


Giving up nukes now would be a PR coup for Israel, taking some wind out of anti-semites' sails. Your security would not be jeopardized and you would gain moral high ground.

I rather be alive and insure the existence of my country while not having the sympathy of many than been dead and having my country destroyed while having the sympathy of many.

No one can ensure the existence and security of our country but us...

I hear you loud and clear. I would say the same words if my country was at stake.

Stay safe, maybe the future will be brighter.

[IDFM203]

@IDFM203


Lastly I repeat Iran is an offensive threat as indeed Iran’s Islamic fundamentalist leaders for years have publicly said their goal is to wipe out the whole Israel.

Some Mullahs can say what their want, but their word doesn’t count, it’s their opinion not something official from the president or so. well its a lot more then a mere “some” and also the mullahs in Iran have a lot of power.

Secondly they have military parades with death to Israel or March to Jerusalem banners on some of their missiles


I think based on their past statements and their clear attitudes against Israel to annihilate it, it IMO constitutes a offensive threat.


The only official statement from Iran actually is from the defence minister which said that IF Iran gets attacked by Israel they will get an "unimaginable counter attack".
First of all that’s officially been stated only recently and its only after the world finnlay started to pay it some attention.

Secondly official or not by one person doesn’t mean anything, for years many in their government have called for a complete annihilation of Israel and that is a offensive threat.

Anyways you can call all their words propaganda or what not, I however am reminded of what golda mair once said after Egypts Nasser in the 60’s had publicly threatened to annihilate Israel she said “ when Hitler said he wanted to destroy the Jews no one believed him, when Nasser said it we did” meaning we have no choice but to believe them on their offensive intentions.

Or rather we cannot afford not to believe them on their offensive threats to annihilate us




"Israel never once ever said any such thing about Iran now has ever said that it has intentions to annihlte any arab nation as they have said they want to do to Israel "

Israeli defence minister said few months ago that Israel prepared everything to attack Iranian Nuclear installations if Israel thinks it is needed, Iran never said something like this and what Arab country’s says has nothing to do with Iran. Iran and Arab nations have threatened to annihilate Israel, that is the type of offensive threats it has made over the years.

Israel has never said any such thing and all it has said is that it might go after that offensive threat only but that is it, it did not make any threats to annihilate Iran.

In short, they want to destroy Israel and we wont to destroy those arms that can do it

Big difference in both of the nations targeting and intentions.

Shalom :D

[ikurinturbiini]

... judging from the way some Israelis and (I dare say) most Arabs have behaved, neither of them should have nukes. A religious nutcase is a religious nutcase, regardless of the religion. God knows there are many on either side of this conflict.


I'm afraid you are mistaken, if you think that religion is the main factor in this conflict. And it certainly isn't for Israel, where most of population is not religious.

This part I agree with. I just wanted to point out that there are hard core religious zealots in Israel as well. It is not an Arab prerogative.


Israel has the right to WMDs, because it's a responsible country. The structure of it's government ensures that such weapons will never be used in violation of an accepted doctrine, and the doctrine is built with a strict adherence to international law.



Governments change. You can't know who holds the keys to the briefcase five years from now. I'm afraid I don't share your optimism.


In short, there can be no correlation between Israeli WMDs and any Arab nation's WMDs, and presence of WMD in Israeli arsenals can't serve as an excuse for Arabs obtaining WMDs as well.

I disagree, but I understand your POV. For his own country, any man would say what you're saying.

Not being Israeli nor Arab, that's all I have to say about this matter. I know perfectly well that my opinion means zip to those who live there. I can respect that.

[IDFM203]

Ok I see others already answered your post to me so I will just address one point.



I'm sure you are being sincere when you say all this. However, judging from the way some Israelis and (I dare say) most Arabs have behaved, neither of them should have nukes. A religious nutcase is a religious nutcase, regardless of the religion. God knows there are many on either side of this conflict.

The difference is that Israel’s government is secular and most Israelis are secular.

Of course we have some some elements in our society of religious fanaticism (as most nations in the world have elements in their population that is as such) but they are a extreme minority and for the most part, Israel is a secular nation and is mostly governed by secularists.

Iran’s government is not and it is run by religious Islamic fundamentalists and that is another big difference in both programs.

Lastly I repeat, the U.S. Russia, Britain, France and Israel IMO are responsible nuclear nations and also they (U.S. Russia, Britain, France)have nukes with much less of a vital national security threat that Israel faces.

Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

I would be keen to learn if any who support the release of Jonathan Pollard opposed the release of Vanunu...

As it would appear they both acted as a result of ideology(not personal gain) and has caused no proven damage to national security.

I would find it quite ethically challenging for someone to support the incarceration of one but not the other. and on the flip side those who supported a life sentence for Pollard should as well for vannunu...the same ethical problems you state with your argument can be said to what I just stated? ;)


Shalom :D

[Mark_Aspen]

I think it was Moshe Dayan and Abba Eban at a press conference or on a "Meet the Press" show who put Israel's nuke policy in perspective. When asked if Israel had nukes, one responded with the stock Israeli line
"Israel won't be the first nation to introduce nuclear weapons to the Middle East" (or something to that affect).

The other then chipped in, "nor will we be the second..."

[SeanAshi]

Why is it ok for Russians assianate Chechens terrorist and its not ok for Israelis to assianate Palestinian terrorist?
IE i think that people do understand that its vital for you to fight "terrorists" and "terrorism", but then again was it really wise to kill 2 of top HAMAS leaders? I mean that just made all the rest of Palestinians also mad to you, if they already werent........ Was it wise for Russians to kill Amir Khatabb?
I mean that just made all the rest of Palestinians also mad to youUninen they are just as mad if Yassin and Rantisi were still alive today.

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203


well its a lot more then a mere “some” and also the mullahs in Iran have a lot of power.

Well they can have as much power as they want, those who said it have no control about any of the Iranian forces not even the IRGC and that’s the point. Who can speak for the forces is the defence minister and he said that there will be a response not a attack, he could say Iran will attack Israel but he didn’t. As next Iran has not attacked any country around it, not even the Taliban which officially killed Iranian diplomats, so don’t think Iran is naturally aggressive.


Secondly they have military parades with death to Israel or March to Jerusalem banners on some of their missiles


I think based on their past statements and their clear attitudes against Israel to annihilate it, it IMO constitutes a offensive threat.

As I said this slogan in parades is normal for the IRGC, they had already problems with Israel and America, that’s why they write such things on their missiles, but its propaganda to show that the missiles can IF needed reach Israel, nothing serious when we look at it. The statements that Israel should get destroyed come from Mullahs which are not in the position to decide about such things (like an ex-president for example). But it is so that Iran doesn’t recognize Israel, as it is now, an illegal country can’t exist in the opinions of the Iranian leaders, that’s why Israel has the rights to see Iran as an enemy, both Iran and Israel have strategic interests.... (still one don’t must threat an enemy with an attack like the Israeli defence minister did).


Secondly official or not by one person doesn’t mean anything, for years many in their government have called for a complete annihilation of Israel and that is a offensive threat.

A threat would be if someone which is in the position in Iran say, Iran should or will annihilate Israel. Israel (someone there who is in the position to say it) said it will/should attack Iranian installations and any attack of Iranian ground will end in a full war.



Iran and Arab nations have threatened to annihilate Israel, that is the type of offensive threats it has made over the years.

Arab nations have as said nothing to do with Iran and if Iran said that, could you tell me who did that and when ?


In short, they want to destroy Israel and we wont to destroy those arms that can do it

Which arms nobody can destroy the Iranian Nuclear program with some attacks and if they try there will be a full war and the country which attacks should at least have a proof that Iran has a Nuclear arms program. the situation is namely so that, for Iran Israel is an illegal country and so has no rights to exist (at least not in the current form) but this country want to attack and destroy Iran’s civil Nuclear program, so Iran will counter attack if that’s happen.

[Flagg]

and on the flip side those who supported a life sentence for Pollard should as well for vannunu...the same ethical problems you state with your argument can be said to what I just stated?


Shalom

Agreed, Thanks for responding to that one IDFM203...I was about to ask the Pollard question again.

Back onto the topic of Vanunu

But you answered my question with a question......so I'll "ping pong" back another question:

If you agree with the ethical conundrum I presented:

Neither man has caused any proven damage to national security(USA for Pollard, Vanunu for Israel)

Both men likely improved the security of Israel:

Pollard by illegally sharing US data to Israel about her likely opponents helping to improve the intelligence picture

Vanunu by illegally sharing some photos of Israel's decades old weapons grade fissionable material production..proving to the world Israel's covert program everyone ASSUMED existed, REALLY existed. Any remaining opponents planning a major conventional attack on Israel were likely stopped cold

And both men acted out of ideology, rather than personal gain

Then if so many Israelis support the release of Jonathan Pollard(support has been gaining momentum over the last 2 decades, and you know better than I Israel doesn't like to "leave anyone behind") how can they NOT support the release(or at least oppose the harsh sentence) of Vanunu? It certainly looks like an indefensible and hypocritical stance.

[citizen-k]

and on the flip side those who supported a life sentence for Pollard should as well for vannunu...the same ethical problems you state with your argument can be said to what I just stated?


Shalom

Agreed, Thanks for responding to that one IDFM203...I was about to ask the Pollard question again.

Back onto the topic of Vanunu

But you answered my question with a question......so I'll "ping pong" back another question:

If you agree with the ethical conundrum I presented:

Neither man has caused any proven damage to national security(USA for Pollard, Vanunu for Israel)

Both men likely improved the security of Israel:

Pollard by illegally sharing US data to Israel about her likely opponents helping to improve the intelligence picture

Vanunu by illegally sharing some photos of Israel's decades old weapons grade fissionable material production..proving to the world Israel's covert program everyone ASSUMED existed, REALLY existed. Any remaining opponents planning a major conventional attack on Israel were likely stopped cold

And both men acted out of ideology, rather than personal gain

Then if so many Israelis support the release of Jonathan Pollard(support has been gaining momentum over the last 2 decades, and you know better than I Israel doesn't like to "leave anyone behind") how can they NOT support the release(or at least oppose the harsh sentence) of Vanunu? It certainly looks like an indefensible and hypocritical stance.

My point of view about both people is:

Vanunu is a mental case who was used by the Mossad&Shabak, so I don't care that he is out now nor I don't care that he was in prison for 18 years.

Polard is an American (although he got an Israeli citizenship a few years ago) traitor, and as such they can do what ever they want with him.
As an Israeli I'm mad at those who used him and not at those who caught him.

[Romulus]

Today is the release date.......

Yeah thats right ladies and gentlemen, and do you know what this means? WMD hunts next stop Israel.....

Bet your running for a jar of vasoline as we speak.

[Sayeret]

Uninen shut up. All your trying to do is start a flame war. About everything you have said so far has been intended to start a flame war. Stop acting like an imature 7th grader.

BTW that Russian Federation Site of yours is about the most bias piece of sh*t forum I've ever seen.

[SeanAshi]

BTW that Russian Federation Site of yours is about the most bias piece of sh*t forum I've ever seen.Its nice that someone agrees with me on that :D

[DLodge]

The thing I don't get is why on earth Israel kept its nukes secret. If the entire point of possessing nuclear weapons was to serve as a deterrant than that point is lost if you don't tell anyone about it.

Reminds me of the Doomsday machine from Dr. Strangelove.

[ExtraT]

The thing I don't get is why on earth Israel kept its nukes secret.

It's simple. The minute Israel acknowledges posession of nuclear arms everybody will start forcing it to sign some "nuclear nonprolifiration treaty", submint to inspections, and lots of other bull****.
The way it is right now, there is not sufficient cause for anything like that. On the other hand, those that need to know - do know, and fear.

Vaanunu is a patsy, of course - he has been used to leak credible evidence of a nuclear arms program.

[Uninen]

Uninen shut up. All your trying to do is start a flame war. About everything you have said so far has been intended to start a flame war. Stop acting like an imature 7th grader.

BTW that Russian Federation Site of yours is about the most bias piece of sh*t forum I've ever seen.

Sayeret,

Stfu! Im not trying to flame, but you it seems are trying to. Im just senserily interested in Vanunu and in things he has to say.

Secondly, "the site" isnt mine go talk to one of your country men... living in Ber Sheva..... :P

****head.

[Sayeret]

Uninen wrote:


Sayeret,

Stfu! Im not trying to flame, but you it seems are trying to. Im just senserily interested in Vanunu and in things he has to say.

Secondly, "the site" isnt mine go talk to one of your country men... living in Ber Sheva.....

****head.

your a moderator on that site.

[Kilgor]

Today is the release date.......

Yeah thats right ladies and gentlemen, and do you know what this means? WMD hunts next stop Israel.....

Bet your running for a jar of vasoline as we speak.

rofl

[Uninen]

:roll:

I dont ****ing get it, what the hell has "jar of vasoline" to do with anything......

You sick bastards.
:bash:

[Fintin]

so rainbows....go bad ugly...discuss

[weedman]

Its official..... :PFinally :)

[Uninen]

Link! (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1200163,00.html)

'I am proud and happy to do what I did'

Vanunu released by Israel after 18 years but fears for his safety remain

Duncan Campbell in Ashkelon, Israel
Thursday April 22, 2004
The Guardian

The hand that 18 years ago had the message "hijacked" scrawled across its palm was yesterday waving and making the peace sign as its owner passed through the blue and white bars of the gate of Shikma prison in Ashkelon.

It was the first sight the world had of Mordechai Vanunu, Israel's nuclear whistleblower, as he was released from jail 17 years and five months after being snatched by Mossad, the Israeli secret service.

It was clear that his prison years - 11 of them in solitary confinement - had not dimmed his spirit.

Chaotic scenes greeted the 49-year-old former nuclear technician. His supporters, who had travelled from as far away as Japan and Minnesota, threw pink and white carnations and waved welcoming placards proclaiming him a "peace hero".

Angry opponents tore up the flowers, threw eggs at the campaigners, made throat slitting gestures and chanted "Death! Death!" as he emerged from the jail, with his brother, Meir.

For a moment it seemed as though the police had lost control of the situation as anti-Vanunu protesters charged through the barriers and banged on the roof of his car, chasing him down the street. Mr Vanunu responded by making another peace sign from the back seat.

Before he stepped out of the main prison gates in this coastal city, Mr Vanunu made a defiant speech, saying that he had no regrets, that his treatment had been "very cruel and barbaric" and that he had no more secrets to tell. "I am Mordechai Vanunu," he announced. "I am proud and happy to do what I did."

He dismissed suggestions that he had to be forbidden from talking to foreigners in case he had further nuclear secrets to divulge. "I don't have any secrets," he said. "All this bull****, blah, blah, blah, about secrets is dead. Since the article was published [in the Sunday Times in 1986] there are no more secrets. All the secrets are in the hands of the world _ I don't want to harm Israel. I want to leave Israel and start a new life. I want to go to the United States, to marry and to start my life."

Looking fit and well, Mr Vanunu paused during his address to the media to listen to the noise from the street outside, a mixture of cheers from his supporters and boos from his opponents.

He said he still believed he had acted correctly in exposing Israel's nuclear weapons programme at Dimona where he worked until 1985.

A student radical who had been involved in the peace movement, he divulged details of the plant to the Sunday Times. But before the article appeared he was lured to Rome by a Mossad agent called "Cindy", drugged and shipped back to Israel where he was jailed for treason and espionage.

"I said Israel doesn't need nuclear arms, especially now that the Middle East is free from nuclear weapons," he said. "Iraq doesn't have nuclear weapons, Libya, Iran _ my message today is _ to open the Dimona reactor for inspections. Call Mohamed ElBaradei [of the International Atomic Energy Agency] to come and inspect Dimona."

After criticising his treatment in prison, which he blamed on Mossad, he said he would continue to speak out against nuclear weapons and called on George Bush, Tony Blair and Vladimir Putin to do the same.

"I want to tell you something very important," added Mr Vanunu, who converted to Christianity when in Australia in 1986. "I suffered here 18 years because I am a Christian, because I was baptised to Christianity. If I was Jewish, I wouldn't have all this suffering."

Before leaving the prison, he said he had survived despite attempts by the authorities to make him mad. "You _ Mossad didn't succeed. You didn't succeed to break me, to make me crazy. The target of 18 years in isolation is to make me crazy."

Dressed in a checked shirt and tie that his brother had brought in for him, he said that in the past few weeks he had been put back in isolation and many of his belongings had been taken from him. "They did a lot of things to try to destroy me."

Earlier, he had told his brother that he wanted to celebrate "with champagne" and meet all the people who campaigned for his release. Crowds of his supporters, including the MP Jeremy Corbyn, the actor Susannah York and the peace campaigners Bruce Kent and Pat Arrowsmith, had been outside the gates since just after dawn. "I am looking forward to hugging him and telling him how proud we are of him," York said. "I am very joyful."

A trumpeter played We Shall Overcome and 18 white doves were released as the 11am release time approached. Then opponents of Vanunu arrived, tore up posters and set fire to campaign banners chanting "Garbage! Garbage!" In shambolic scenes, police officers who pushed the counter-demonstrators back were called "traitors" and scuffles broke out.

Mr Vanunu, who is not allowed to leave the country for six months, went first to an old Anglican church in Jerusalem "to give thanks to God and my friends". There more chaotic scenes awaited him. His supporters are concerned for his safety, fears that were heightened yesterday by the number of death threats shouted at him.

Initial plans had been made for him to stay at the Andromeda Hill apartments on the coast in Jaffa but these were abandoned after the address was leaked to the media.

Some Andromeda Hill residents said they did not want him there. "If he's here, I'm going to leave this place," said Danny Hakim, 45, an Australian in the block.

"Vanunu is not welcome. What he has done is not correct. It is ironical that he wants to go to the United States which is the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons."

Lior Perry, 35, said he feared for the security of his family if Mr Vanunu moved in. "Can you imagine some mafia guy coming to live next door and people trying to kill him? There are crazy people who want to kill him."

Mr Vanunu's adoptive parents, Mary and Nick Eoloff, from St Paul, Minnesota, who were also outside the jail, hope that he will be eventually allowed to join them there. Mr Vanunu has said he would like a job as a history teacher.

Last night Mr Vanunu met supporters at a champagne reception at the cathedral in Jerusalem and identified people who had written to him from photos they had sent.

[HKFIN]

My opinion is Vanunu is a traitor on his country!

And killing Yassin, Rantisi and other TERRORISTS Israel make good job on this planet because HAMAS not want to peace in midle east!

[Uninen]

Kusipää :bash:

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Vanunu...is that not a Palestinian name? I am aware of a Senator's name who's name is Sununu and he is from Palestinian descent.

[Uninen]

He is from Morrocan Jewish famility that "moved" to Israel........

[MEGR]

He'll probably mysteriously end up dead soon. Courtesy of the Mossad.

[Javehn]

Kusipää :bash:

It's not nice to call someone "asshole" Uni , when he doesn't agree your conspirative ideas ;) . It's nice to see that not all your coutryman are crazy as you .

[UkrainianAmerican]

My opinion is Vanunu is a traitor on his country!

And killing Yassin, Rantisi and other TERRORISTS Israel make good job on this planet because HAMAS not want to peace in midle east!
woot

[Uninen]

You can hardly call me as "crazy"...... But my view of this world is certainly different than his or yours.... p-)

IE im thinking that you and he fail to see that violance and killings only result in more violence and killings, unless you do it properly and wont leave anybody alive, but then again, i think that "you" arent prepared or willing to do massacre on that ultimate scale......................

And also, i feel that Vanunu made the right thing by telling, well actually showing that you guys were up to no good.... ;)

[Javehn]

You can hardly call me as "crazy"...... But my view of this world is certainly different than his or yours.... p-)

IE im thinking that you and he fail to see that violance and killings only result in more violence and killings, unless you do it properly and wont leave anybody alive, but then again, i think that "you" arent prepared or willing to do massacre on that ultimate scale......................

And also, i feel that Vanunu made the right thing by telling, well actually showing that you guys were up to no good.... ;)

:lol:

Kusipää :roll: :bash:

[Uninen]

Nice argument there..... im speechless! rofl

*note*

Might i add that "kusipää" doesnt actually mean "asshole" but rather "urinhead".. ;)

[ikurinturbiini]

Nice argument there..... im speechless! rofl

*note*

Might i add that "kusipää" doesnt actually mean "asshole" but rather "urinhead".. ;)

Dammit boy, you blew the code! :bash: :bash: :bash:

[IDFM203]

-=P=

I have gone over this before and have done the Google search for a lot of their quotes (which do exists) already and I feel its futile to do it again.

I maintain that Iran’s government and a lot that have power there has stated that one of its main goals is to wipe out Israel. That’s an offensive threat

Iran already constantly offensively attacks Israel for years now through its various proxies event though Israel has never attacked Iran

They have military parades with death to Israel and other themes imbedded in their military armaments on display there


Now you can claim that all that is mere propaganda and that’s your assertion, though after Hitlers assertion that at first a lot didn’t believe and then it came to fruition, now when it comes to our vital national security we simply have no choice but to take them on their word for their offensive threats or rather to put it more forcibly we cant afford not to take them seriously on what a lot in their government has stated (not to mention a lot in their population holds as well).

As for their program being for civilian purposes, yeah please :roll: , yeah at the same token I guess Israel’s is as well ;)

Btw didn’t the UN recently come out with a report that they were lying and that there are clear signs that their program is not for civilian use.

Anyway again you can believe that it’s for civilian use, me personally I find it very hard to believe that is its main intention and purpose.



and on the flip side those who supported a life sentence for Pollard should as well for vannunu...the same ethical problems you state with your argument can be said to what I just stated?


Shalom


But you answered my question with a question......so I'll "ping pong" back another question: .ok and now I will answer it and as such I expect (or rather hope) you to answer what I said as well.



If you agree with the ethical conundrum I presented:

Neither man has caused any proven damage to national security(USA for Pollard, Vanunu for Israel) .ok I do NOT agree.

For indeed as a unintended consequence, vannunu IMO helped the security of Israel, however he damaged the governments policy significantly and even though me personally I am not a big fan of that policy, that’s a moot point for there was a government policy and he broke it outright.

Secondly his intentions were to weaken Israel’s nuclear arms deterrent and in fact his goals are to have Israel eliminate them altogether and besides that being very stupid, it’s a traitors act for him to act as such also it is in direct opposition to what most Israelis hold about that.

There are security laws and procedures that he flat out broke and there is no argument to that!!!!

As such he is a traitor and IMO his act was an act of treason and the minimum should have been life in prison.

Now pollard in the eyes of the U.S. was also a traitor, however he didn’t hurt the U.S. in any way nor did he spy on the U.S. (he gave over satellite info of Israel’s enemies and not on the U.S. itself)

Anyways whether he did or didn’t and the fact that he got punished is a moot point to me and is not what I have a problem with (and many others as well)

Now here is my big problem with what happened to pollard.

My problem is that IMO he got treated unfairly and got a harsher sentence then other spies that the U.S. has caught.

For example, former U.S. FBI agent Robert Hansen got 20 years and he is implicated in the deaths of three U.S. agents as a result of the info he passed on to the soviets.

There are other spies over the years that the U.S. has caught that caused much more damage to the U.S. security then what pollard did and they however got much lighter terms then he did.

That is my problem with the pollard case and that is why I don’t see how they both (him and vannunu) should get the same sentences or how there is a correlation to both.


Now I answered the question, how about you answer me about those that (and it appears that you as well) support him (vannunu) being released but yet want pollard to spend the rest of his life in jail, shouldn’t in your view pollard be released now?!!!


Lastly back to the Nukes.

Again Russia, Britain, France, China and the U.S. all have larger nuclear stockpiles then Israel and in fact they all have it with much less vital nation security and threats to their existence as what Israel faces.

Israel has a right and IMO even more of a right (or justification) then those nations to maintain a strong nuclear deterrent to its enemies that still wish to see it destroyed.

Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Flagg,

Well as reluctant I am to do this (for I usually let unanswered questions die out and not insist on a reponse), however after seeing your impatience before when you wrote “Agreed, Thanks for responding to that one IDFM203...I was about to ask the Pollard question again” well I figured I can play that as well ;)

So as is clear, I answered your question but as of yet you have not answered mine and well I figured perhaps I should ask again.

So I repeat “how about you answer me about those that (and it appears that you as well) support him (vannunu) being released but yet want pollard to spend the rest of his life in jail, shouldn’t in your view pollard be released now?!!! ???

For its clear that with YOUR logic that YOU made to me before, YOU have made a case that pollard should not get life in prison and should be released NOW!!

Shalom :D

[Flagg]

Flagg,

Well as reluctant I am to do this (for I usually let unanswered questions die out and not insist on a reponse), however after seeing your impatience before when you wrote “Agreed, Thanks for responding to that one IDFM203...I was about to ask the Pollard question again” well I figured I can play that as well

So as is clear, I answered your question but as of yet you have not answered mine and well I figured perhaps I should ask again.

So I repeat “how about you answer me about those that (and it appears that you as well) support him (vannunu) being released but yet want pollard to spend the rest of his life in jail, shouldn’t in your view pollard be released now?!!! ???

For its clear that with YOUR logic that YOU made to me before, YOU have made a case that pollard should not get life in prison and should be released NOW!!

Shalom

The only reason why I haven't responded is because I've been away the last few days and spent this morning at our ANZAC memoral service.

You'll see my answers below:


Quote:
If you agree with the ethical conundrum I presented:

Neither man has caused any proven damage to national security(USA for Pollard, Vanunu for Israel) .
ok I do NOT agree.


For indeed as a unintended consequence, vannunu IMO helped the security of Israel, however he damaged the governments policy significantly and even though me personally I am not a big fan of that policy, that’s a moot point for there was a government policy and he broke it outright.

How do you KNOW what Vanunu intended or didn't intend?

Wouldn't what you wrote on another thread be relevant now?


I don’t understand how you can say this?

We don’t know how she feels and certainly its not incumbent on anyone to assume what’s likely or not and certainly not for you or anyone to assume that its likely she regrets it.

I think a stronger case can be made that she does not at all, but either way it’s a bit absurd to say that its likely that she does when you cant possibly back that up in any way.

Take your own advice or substantiate it......


if he's bright enough to be vetted, recruited, trained, and employed in one of Israel's most important programs couldn't he be bright enough to have come to the conclusion that his actions would accomplish BOTH his goal of breaking the secrecy on Israel's deterrent AND improve it's security?

I don't KNOW, nor do YOU


Secondly his intentions were to weaken Israel’s nuclear arms deterrent and in fact his goals are to have Israel eliminate them altogether and besides that being very stupid, it’s a traitors act for him to act as such also it is in direct opposition to what most Israelis hold about that.

I agree what he did was criminal.....read my posts....both Vanunu AND Pollard are criminals...that's not the question I raised


There are security laws and procedures that he flat out broke and there is no argument to that!!!!

I never argued it...why are you?


As such he is a traitor and IMO his act was an act of treason and the minimum should have been life in prison.

Life in prison for validating Israel's nuclear deterrant, IMPROVING Israel's security situation with it's historical opponents, at the cost of WHAT EXACTLY?

According to you he damaged "government policy". That's a bit too nebulous for me to understand.....what tangible damage did he cause?


Now pollard in the eyes of the U.S. was also a traitor, however he didn’t hurt the U.S. in any way nor did he spy on the U.S. (he gave over satellite info of Israel’s enemies and not on the U.S. itself)

He didn't hurt the US? It could be argued that he passed highly classified technical capabilities to a foreign nation, thus debilitating future US surveillance efforts against the same foreign nation...as you mentioned yourself in open and PM....nations spy on one another....Israel would be able to counter US efforts to surveil Israel because it better understood US capabilites by obtaining intelligence illegally.....

BUT, that's as weak an argument as Vanunu damaging Israeli policy.....hence my comparing the two.


Anyways whether he did or didn’t and the fact that he got punished is a moot point to me and is not what I have a problem with (and many others as well)

Agreed


Now here is my big problem with what happened to pollard.

My problem is that IMO he got treated unfairly and got a harsher sentence then other spies that the U.S. has caught.

Seems like it.......he was treated harshly given the "damage" he caused.....same with Vanunu being locked in solitary for the "damage" he caused.


For example, former U.S. FBI agent Robert Hansen got 20 years and he is implicated in the deaths of three U.S. agents as a result of the info he passed on to the soviets.

There are other spies over the years that the U.S. has caught that caused much more damage to the U.S. security then what pollard did and they however got much lighter terms then he did.

That is my problem with the pollard case and that is why I don’t see how they both (him and vannunu) should get the same sentences or how there is a correlation to both.

The correlation is:

NEITHER has caused proven tangible damage.

They were BOTH punished more severely than necessary.

They BOTH likely imprived Israel's security

They BOTH acted out of idiology, not personal gain

That's the correlation.


Now I answered the question, how about you answer me about those that (and it appears that you as well) support him (vannunu) being released but yet want pollard to spend the rest of his life in jail, shouldn’t in your view pollard be released now?!!!

First off I NEVER argued for the release of Vanunu, and the continued incarceration of Pollard....

READ MY POSTS

What exactly did I write to make you ASSUME I believed Pollard should be imprisoned and Vanunu released? It would take more than a LEAP to jump to that conclusion.

WHAT I DID POST is:


I would be keen to learn if any who support the release of Jonathan Pollard opposed the release of Vanunu...

As it would appear they both acted as a result of ideology(not personal gain) and has caused no proven damage to national security.

I would find it quite ethically challenging for someone to support the incarceration of one but not the other.

then you posted:


and on the flip side those who supported a life sentence for Pollard should as well for vannunu...the same ethical problems you state with your argument can be said to what I just stated?


Shalom

then I posted:


Back onto the topic of Vanunu

But you answered my question with a question......so I'll "ping pong" back another question:

If you agree with the ethical conundrum I presented:

Neither man has caused any proven damage to national security(USA for Pollard, Vanunu for Israel)

Both men likely improved the security of Israel:

Pollard by illegally sharing US data to Israel about her likely opponents helping to improve the intelligence picture

Vanunu by illegally sharing some photos of Israel's decades old weapons grade fissionable material production..proving to the world Israel's covert program everyone ASSUMED existed, REALLY existed. Any remaining opponents planning a major conventional attack on Israel were likely stopped cold

And both men acted out of ideology, rather than personal gain

Then if so many Israelis support the release of Jonathan Pollard(support has been gaining momentum over the last 2 decades, and you know better than I Israel doesn't like to "leave anyone behind") how can they NOT support the release(or at least oppose the harsh sentence) of Vanunu? It certainly looks like an indefensible and hypocritical stance.

ALL I did was attempt to portray the distinct similiarities that exist between the two cases(Vanunu and Pollard) and how it would appear quite difficult to reconcile with the freedom of one and the continued punishment for the other.

I believe I have been fair and impartial in my assessment.

MY OPINION IS:

BOTH the US and Israel should be ashamed of how they have treated both prisoners......they both deserved punishment...that is NOT the question....but the severity and condition of imprisonment has been, in my opinion, unacceptably harsh.

Please consider a different approach than the one you used in this case.

If you wish to get my attention...consider sending a PM, rather than a public challenge...I'm always happy to reply when available.

Check the other thread...as I have responded to your post there as well.

[IDFM203]

This is going to be a bit strange but since the other thread was locked I figured I will post my response that I had intended to do there, to post it here then follow up after the response with my response to what you said in this thread.






I don’t understand how you can say this?

We don’t know how she feels and certainly its not incumbent on anyone to assume what’s likely or not and certainly not for you or anyone to assume that its likely she regrets it.

So you're entitled to making assumptions when it suits IDFM203 and I am not?

Check your own post history on your own comments........have YOU not made ANY assumptions? :roll: With all due respect flag, you have overreacted here with your hostile tone.


Secondly I don’t outright assume things but rather if and when I do assume things I at least do so based on a case that I make with all sorts of facts and other things to back it up

To me what you did seemed like an outright assumption with nothing to back it up.

I guess having the acrimony of your birth nation directed against you, maturity, and 3 decades of hindsight isn't going to result in regret? first of all she knew when she went that she would get a lot of flack and yet still she did so and that’s tells me that she was sure in her convictions.

Secondly has anything she has said till now led you believe that she has regretted going there DURING that war, for if not, then there is nothing to base on a assumption that she regrets it when she has given you noting to base that assumption.


I think a stronger case can be made that she does not at all,

So in YOUR OPINION, it's LIKELY Jane Fonda has NO regrets getting photographed behind a Russian Made North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun being used to shoot down and kill her fellow Americans?

Funny that...I think it's LIKELY you are wrong in YOUR OPINION. No IMO its likely nothing nor did I say anything is likely.

Secondly I think we have a bit of confusion (perhaps my fault for not being more clear).

I am referring to in general her going to Vietnam DURING that war and my comments are on that in general and not on specifically that pic.

I didn’t outright assume anything and I made it clear before that its wrong to assume what’s likely or not, all I said that if you are doing it, I would think a stronger case can be made against it however I didn’t say that it is as such.

Thirdly I repeat, I wasn’t responding to that pic, but rather overall and IMO her actions to go there in a time of war IMO that is a clear act of treason!!!


but either way it’s a bit absurd to say that its likely that she does when you cant possibly back that up in any way.

How's this? I found this quite quickly on Google using (Jane Fonda Vietnam Apology keywords) and now you made a case!!

Before you did not.

Remember I already admitted I do not know much about her, though simply saying that she likely regrets something when you did not say anything more concrete before to back that up is what I had a problem with.

Secondly I am not referring to that pic as I explained before.











How do you KNOW what Vanunu intended or didn't intend? . that’s what he clearly stated!!!

When he gave over those pics to the brit newspapers that’s what his stated goals were.

Secondly a logical case is that when someone gives over nuclear pics to a foreign paper, which is in direct violation of his nations policy and security laws, and indeed he knows its in stark contrast to government and security laws, well there can be only one intention and that is what I outlined before.


Wouldn't what you wrote on another thread be relevant now? .

Take your own advice or substantiate it...... first of all I did.

Secondly I think there is a difference in stating what his intention is based on what he DID as his actions bear out somewhat what a persons intentions is, then making a claim that someone regrets something based on nothing (when you wrote it I had nothing to base it on)

if he's bright enough to be vetted, recruited, trained, and employed in one of Israel's most important programs couldn't he be bright enough to have come to the conclusion that his actions would accomplish BOTH his goal of breaking the secrecy on Israel's deterrent AND improve it's security?

I don't KNOW, nor do YOUWRONG!!!!! I do know that!!!

Its clear that HIS intentions AND ACTIONS indeed is that he thought he could accomplish both but more so as he believes an elimination of Israel’s nukes does enhance our security.

Those are his stated goals!!!

That’s doesn’t mean he is right and many many more (not to mention MOST Israelis) that are bright and are accepted into etc… disagree with him.

Secondly regardless of what he thought, it makes no difference, he broke our security laws on one of the most vital national security issues we have and he did so in a foreign land and that is treason!!


Secondly his intentions were to weaken Israel’s nuclear arms deterrent and in fact his goals are to have Israel eliminate them altogether and besides that being very stupid, it’s a traitors act for him to act as such also it is in direct opposition to what most Israelis hold about that.

I agree what he did was criminal.....read my posts....both Vanunu AND Pollard are criminals...that's not the question I raisedfirst of all I never said the word criminal and I think the act of treason is a little more then the mere lable of crminal.

Secondly what I am saying here is in the MIDST of a OVERALL CASE I am making to answer YOUR question.


There are security laws and procedures that he flat out broke and there is no argument to that!!!!


I never argued it...why are you? I would ask that next time you get this aggressive and hostile you remember that you asked a question and all I am doing now is answering it by making a case.


I mean I am allowed to make a case now or is that too much for you to tolerate…gees :roll:

As such he is a traitor and IMO his act was an act of treason and the minimum should have been life in prison.


Life in prison for validating Israel's nuclear deterrant, IMPROVING Israel's security situation with it's historical opponents, at the cost of WHAT EXACTLY? no he broke clear security laws, fact!!! As such regardless of what happened as an unintended consequence (and even if it was his intended consequence….no difference in the respect of that he should get punished to the full extent) he broke clear top secret laws and not only that but go over to a foreign nation and do it, that is treason and treason IMO deserves a minimum life sentence!!


According to you he damaged "government policy". That's a bit too nebulous for me to understand.....what tangible damage did he cause? government policy of not disclosing anything about our nukes which is THE most important national deterrent we have and regardless of whether we agree with it or not, that was its policy.

Secondly he flat out broke security laws of which nucks falls under as well.

Now pollard in the eyes of the U.S. was also a traitor, however he didn’t hurt the U.S. in any way nor did he spy on the U.S. (he gave over satellite info of Israel’s enemies and not on the U.S. itself)


He didn't hurt the US? It could be argued that he passed highly classified technical capabilities to a foreign nation, thus debilitating future US surveillance efforts against the same foreign nation...as you mentioned yourself in open and PM....nations spy on one another....Israel would be able to counter US efforts to surveil Israel because it better understood US capabilities by obtaining intelligence illegally..... BIG difference in damaging Israel’s nuclear deterrent (as was his intentions were) which is one of the bigger deterrents to our SURVIVAL that we have, to pollard damage or supposed damage he could have done to the U.S.




BUT, that's as weak an argument as Vanunu damaging Israeli policy.....hence my comparing the two. listen in truth I believe any spy should get a minimum of life in prison.

Even pollard.

However the fact is that many caught spies in the U.S. did not get life and he did.

That is my problem!!!

As for you comparing the two, indeed the case you made it seemed like both are correlated as you say and the fact is that vannunu got released and if both are correlated then shouldnt the logical assumption based on your case be that pollard should be released as well?



Now here is my big problem with what happened to pollard.

My problem is that IMO he got treated unfairly and got a harsher sentence then other spies that the U.S. has caught.


Seems like it.......he was treated harshly given the "damage" he caused.....same with Vanunu being locked in solitary for the "damage" he caused. no vannunu and pollard were not treated harshly acc. to my principles for I believe indeed both should get a minimum of life in prison based solely on the fact of a spy’s sentence IMO should get that terms (even if I think pollard caused much less damge), however in the U.S. they don’t consult me for prison terms and as such they have given out 20 years or lighter sentences for caught spies that caused much more damage while they gave pollard life and that is harsher.



MY OPINION IS:

BOTH the US and Israel should be ashamed of how they have treated both prisoners......they both deserved punishment...that is NOT the question....but the severity and condition of imprisonment has been, in my opinion, unacceptably harsh. this is a still little to vague to answer my questions, so I am going to ask a yes or no question.

BOTTOM LINE....................

[b]do you support vannunu being released now? YES or NO ????……………do you also support pollard being released NOW? YES or NO???



Please consider a different approach than the one you used in this case.

If you wish to get my attention...consider sending a PM, rather than a public challenge...I'm always happy to reply when available.

Yes indeed I had thought about PM’ing you however I remembered your line that you were going to ask again on that thread and like I said before, I as well can play that game.

Secondly I had noticed that much later on in that day after I posted my post, you had posted in another thread so regardless of you being away or not, you were on the net later on that day after my post and well I felt after I put in that effort to answer your question the same courtesy should be shown to my question as well.



ok with that said I will like to say that indeed in truth I will concede that it was a mistake for me to do it publicly and I regret it and I apologize to you for it, I understand that we got ourselves into a bit of a hostile tone here and well you aren’t a poster that I want to do that with for I felt that we got along on this forum in the past and well I would prefer not to go down a path that this forum is famous for. I like to save that kind of energy for people I really don’t respect or like and not for ones I do.

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

"I have gone over this before and have done the Google search for a lot of their quotes (which do exists) already and I feel its futile to do it again.

I maintain that Iran’s government and a lot that have power there has stated that one of its main goals is to wipe out Israel. That’s an offensive threat "

Ok, but then there are only claims, as you cant even say who said such things and what exactly. In Iran its so that some Mullahs lead the country but not all of them are in the position to make decisions, a powerful Rabbi in Israel can also say what he want about Iran, things like what the Israeli defence minister said counts.

"Iran already constantly offensively attacks Israel for years now through its various proxies event though Israel has never attacked Iran "

One could say that Israel and Iran had a proxy conflict in Lebanon to expand the their might, Israel did invade Lebanon and as it is one of the few Arab countries which are Shias like Iranians, the Mullahs couldn’t ignore this, early during the First Persian Gulf War, Iran and Israel had even close (tactical) intelligence exchange, as long both could benefit from it and weaken Iraqis.

"They have military parades with death to Israel and other themes imbedded in their military armaments on display there "

They can say death to Israel, as long they don’t say we will kill Israel, America and Israel also dislike the Mullahs and would which their end would come, nobody said Iran and Israel are friends.

"Now you can claim that all that is mere propaganda and that’s your assertion, though after Hitlers assertion that at first a lot didn’t believe and then it came to fruition, now when it comes to our vital national security we simply have no choice but to take them on their word for their offensive threats or rather to put it more forcibly we cant afford not to take them seriously on what a lot in their government has stated (not to mention a lot in their population holds as well). "

Believe me Israel knows what is serious and what not, professionals don’t take propaganda like things printed on parades serious, something like an official statement by the government would be taken serious (or satellite and Mossad information’s ;) ).

"As for their program being for civilian purposes, yeah please , yeah at the same token I guess Israel’s is as well

Btw didn’t the UN recently come out with a report that they were lying and that there are clear signs that their program is not for civilian use. "

No we cant say the Israeli program is peaceful, nuclear programs are characteristic, the Israeli one is like that of Saddam in the early 80's, the Iranian program is similar to the German or Japanese and when we look at the parts of the program we see that its to 80% for civilian use, 20% could be used for a bomb but Germany and Japan could also build a bomb with their program.

As said I claim that the Israeli is a weapon and research program, as the only reactor is the Dimona which is used a plutonium breeder and useless for energy generation. What do you say about the Iranian program ?

The UN said that the centrifuges could be used for building a bomb, that’s true but also Germany and Japan could use their centrifuges for that, but without centrifuges they cant run their civil nuclear reactors. Iran one time didn’t, say on what kind of centrifuges it work, but which country wants to tell about what kind of new industrial high-tech systems which are in the design phase, they work ? The UN never said that the Iranian program is a weapon program, it is only so that the tech for things like centrifuges are not openly available for Iran so it had to find other ways to get it and with centrifuges bombs can be build, but without them no civilian reactor can run.

[UoUo]

Oh...you people really belive yourselves? :lol: