(Finnish) Foreign Minister Would Upgrade Defence Cooperation with Sweden

[joka]

Foreign Minister Would Upgrade Defence Cooperation with Sweden
Published 13.01.2007, 18.04

http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id51152_1.jpg
Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja says that Finland should consider considerable closer defence cooperation with neighbouring Sweden.

In an interview with YLE TV News on Saturday, Foreign Minister Tuomioja said that an examination should be made into whether Finland and Sweden could combine air and sea defence.

The foreign and defence ministers of Finland and Sweden will be holding an unofficial meeting in the city of Vantaa this coming Wednesday. It has been several years since such a gathering has taken place.

In Tuomioja's view, cooperation in controlling airspace, including air defence, with Sweden would be a natural move for Finland. He did stress, however that the meeting on Wednesday is an informal gathering which will review current issues.


Finland aware of Swedish-Norwegian plans


The Secretary of State at the Ministry for Foreign Affairs, Pertti Torstila, says that Finland is well aware of plans by Sweden and Norway to upgrade cooperation in the field of defence.

In a YLE TV discussion Saturday, Torstila said now that all three countries are involved in significant, major crisis management operations, it is a given that partners are being sought.

He pointed out that the threshold for cooperation between NATO and non-NATO countries is becoming lower all the time. Torstila added that he sees nothing dramatic about cooperation talks between Sweden and Norway. According to Torstila, Finland has been invited to take part in the discussions as well.


YLE
http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id51152.html

Finland and Sweden already share some maritime surveillance information real-time.

[Gluten]

sounds good

[Basillicus]

I think that would be a great idea. AFAIK Sweden has a lot better air defences that we do, but especially in the future our ground forces will be stronger and situated better (from Swedish view) against you-know-who.

[Bert]

Good to hear some that actually still see the bear as a strategical threat, our defence chief of staff is disestablishing everything in the north so that he can spend more money on UN missions.

[kosse]

Now this is common sense. I like this idea a lot more than NATO membership. It would be cost-effective and suit our needs well.

[oregano]

Would that mean in practice that Swedish and Finnish jets would patrol over both countries? I don't want Saabs flying in my airspace...

[Basillicus]

Would that mean in practice that Swedish and Finnish jets would patrol over both countries? I don't want Saabs flying in my airspace...

I guess the question to ask is that do you want Sukhois and MiGs flying in you airspace in a ****-hits-the-fan situation or not.

[signatory]

Would that mean in practice that Swedish and Finnish jets would patrol over both countries? I don't want Saabs flying in my airspace...

Each year the two airforces hold at least one cross territorial exercise in the north so they already fly there buddy. But since Finnish jets can't deal with the best Russia has to offer I otoh share that concern.

Also I can't see that many advantages for Sweden in a even deeper cooperation with Finland. What exactly do we have to gain from this?

[eugenlitwin]

I guess the question to ask is that do you want Sukhois and MiGs flying in you airspacerofl rofl rofl in a ****-hits-the-fan situation or not.

[kosse]

Each year the two airforces hold at least one cross territorial exercise in the north so they already fly there buddy. But since Finnish jets can't deal with the best Russia has to offer I otoh share that concern.

Also I can't see that many advantages for Sweden in a even deeper cooperation with Finland. What exactly do we have to gain from this?

I could imagine that at least financial savings. Today's aircraft aren't the cheapest to buy, operate or maintain. I suppose your security situation should be also better the stronger your eastern neighbor is. . As for Finnish jets not being able to handle russians...who says swedish jets can do it either? How many Sukhois or Migs has Gripen shot down?

[ozumn]

We don't have to shot them down, we just have to dive then pull up or we can do the "saxen" and see them crash :)

[signatory]

I could imagine that at least financial savings. Today's aircraft aren't the cheapest to buy, operate or maintain. I suppose your security situation should be also better the stronger your eastern neighbor is. . As for Finnish jets not being able to handle russians...who says swedish jets can do it either? How many Sukhois or Migs has Gripen shot down?

There's of course 100'ds of parameters and details to discuss but simply put:

SU-30 and SU-27 series come with larger and more powerful radars than the APG-73 of the Finnish hornets, they can also stay on station for longer times and has a far better BVR capability. Especially the Australians have done quite a bit of research into how their F-18s would cope with the new Russian jets.

Compared to the Finnish Hornets the Gripen's have >30% longer intercept range, better acceleration, and can seperate BVRAAM missiles at a higher speed while at the same time bring a significantly lower RCS and its nice detection range to the table. It's also more agile for dogfights. In short, the jet has better fundamental chances to come out as the winner. Technology typically will win over blind faith.

They also have a funded upgrade path including M-AESA radar and METEOR missile integration.

[Nordmannen]

Sure looks good on paper...
Though it's weird how they get destroyed vs. norwegian F-16's in exercises.

[kosse]

There's of course 100'ds of parameters and details to discuss but simply put:

SU-30 and SU-27 series come with larger and more powerful radars than the APG-73 of the Finnish hornets, they can also stay on station for longer times and has a far better BVR capability. Especially the Australians have done quite a bit of research into how their F-18s would cope with the new Russian jets.

Compared to the Finnish Hornets the Gripen's have >30% longer intercept range, better acceleration, and can seperate BVRAAM missiles at a higher speed while at the same time bring a significantly lower RCS and its nice detection range to the table. It's also more agile for dogfights. In short, the jet has better fundamental chances to come out as the winner. Technology typically will win over blind faith.

They also have a funded upgrade path including M-AESA radar and METEOR missile integration.

Fair enough. So it looks like that the current aircraft you swedes have are more advanced and therefore it could be argued that cooperation would not make sense in short term considering your efficiency to fight our eastern "nemesis". How about in the future then? We need to get new aircraft at some point so this balance can change. Now I believe this joint air defense would mean almost surely getting common weapon systems once our current ones get too old. What would be a more natural choice than Swedish made aircraft? I think there are a lots to be gained for both sides in this if it's done right.

[Kaapeli]

Off topic question: What ground-to-air missile systems does Sweden have?

[Resurrection]

Off topic question: What ground-to-air missile systems does Sweden have?

RBS 70 (http://www.halmstad.mil.se/article.php?id=308) (low-altitude SAM)
RBS 90 (http://www.halmstad.mil.se/article.php?id=310) (low-altitude SAM)
RBS 97 HAWK (http://www.halmstad.mil.se/article.php?id=312) (high-altitude SAM)*

Under development: RBS 23 BAMSE (http://www.halmstad.mil.se/article.php?id=311) (medium-altitude SAM)


* Upgraded to Phase III standards.

[Sniffit]

Hmm are you sure that you don't read to much into this?
Sweden and Finland already have a high level of co-operation when it comes to sea-defence in that we share the burden when it comes to surveilance. We also stage alot of exercises between our maritime forces (mostly our amphibious ones).

I seriously doubt that it would be any different when it comes to airdefence and I really do doubt that the finnish or the swedish public would accept it even if "Finlands sak är vår".

@Resurrection: didn't we scrap the development of the RBS 23? I am quite sure that we did and only kept the UndE 23.

[Thor]

A closer cooperation is great, but what will it really mean? I believe that's the question here.


Intense threats against the stability in the whole northern region, from the Baltic to the Arctic, is on the rise and both Sweden and Finland need to start preparing for that with boosted defence budgets.

An interesting article written by a well-known, retired colonel and published in Svenska Dagbladet (in swedish).
http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/brannpunkt/did_14416956.asp




@Resurrection: didn't we scrap the development of the RBS 23? I am quite sure that we did and only kept the UndE 23.

Bamse is in serial production with deliveries starting in 2007.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bamse/

[Sniffit]

Quote:Originally Posted by Sniffit
@Resurrection: didn't we scrap the development of the RBS 23? I am quite sure that we did and only kept the UndE 23.

Quote:Bamse is in serial production with deliveries starting in 2007.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bamse/


I belive that when I see it. Army-technology.com doesn't say what sources they pull the info from nor when it was last updated. I really do hope that it isn't true, we have better things to do then to piss away our money on those.

[Thor]

In limited number it seems

http://www.halmstad.mil.se/attachments/sommartankar.pdf

I think they might opt for a Bamse Mark II with extended range instead

[oregano]

My friend once visited the Anti Air Regiment in Rovaniemi, and got to see how they work. Those guys can really kick some a**.

http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/00132_en.dsp

It's in English.

[exarmyguard]

Do Sweden and Finland have cultural and traditional ties? Are they're languages similar? Do they have cooperation as far as weapons systems are concerned? I noticed Finland uses Russian and American aircraft
(Mig-21 and F-18) rather then Swedish fighters.

[exarmyguard]

My friend once visited the Anti Air Regiment in Rovaniemi, and got to see how they work. Those guys can really kick some a**.

http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/00132_en.dsp

It's in English.

Any Swedish websites that show their equipment? Finland sure has alot of Russian stuff.

[Sniffit]

Do Sweden and Finland have cultural and traditional ties? Are they're languages similar? Do they have cooperation as far as weapons systems are concerned?

Yes, Finland was once a part of Sweden so we have cultural and historical ties. No, there are very few languages that are similar to finnish and although swedish is an official language in Finlad I am under the impresion that few are taught swedish today. We have begun to cooperate in the development of weapon systems.

[ren0312]

There's of course 100'ds of parameters and details to discuss but simply put:

SU-30 and SU-27 series come with larger and more powerful radars than the APG-73 of the Finnish hornets, they can also stay on station for longer times and has a far better BVR capability. Especially the Australians have done quite a bit of research into how their F-18s would cope with the new Russian jets.

Compared to the Finnish Hornets the Gripen's have >30% longer intercept range, better acceleration, and can seperate BVRAAM missiles at a higher speed while at the same time bring a significantly lower RCS and its nice detection range to the table. It's also more agile for dogfights. In short, the jet has better fundamental chances to come out as the winner. Technology typically will win over blind faith.

They also have a funded upgrade path including M-AESA radar and METEOR missile integration.

Was not there a plan by some minor party in Sweden to eliminate your air combat force similar to what New Zealand did, what is the level of support in Sweden for maintaining a large fighter force and an adequate (2-2.3% of GDP) defense budget anyway?

[kosse]

Yes, Finland was once a part of Sweden so we have cultural and historical ties. No, there are very few languages that are similar to finnish and although swedish is an official language in Finlad I am under the impresion that few are taught swedish today. We have begun to cooperate in the development of weapon systems.
Your information about swedish is incorrect. Swedish is compulsory in 7-9. grades and throughout the highschool. I think vocational schools have some mandatory courses too. All university degrees also include swedish courses - at least in my university they do. It's just that everyone is so much better in english since it's taught from 3. grade and seen all the time in television etc. that we rather use it with swedish speaking people. In addition, finnish version of swedish is somewhat different from yours which hampers understanding a bit.

[oregano]

We have begun to cooperate in the development of weapon systems.

Wouldn't it be just better if we both joined NATO. Both Finnish and Swedish troops actively take part in NATO peacekeeping operations and practices. Since Norway and the Baltic countries are also NATO members, the defence co-operation could be expanded even further. After all, everyone's just afraid of Russia.

[Sniffit]

Your information about swedish is incorrect. Swedish is compulsory in 7-9. grades and throughout the highschool. I think vocational schools have some mandatory courses too. All university degrees also include swedish courses - at least in my university they do. It's just that everyone is so much better in english since it's taught from 3. grade and seen all the time in television etc. that we rather use it with swedish speaking people. In addition, finnish version of swedish is somewhat different from yours which hampers understanding a bit.

May I ask what part of Finland you come from? Because most finns that i have met have been from some outback town in the forrests and they didn't speak or understand a word of swedish and claimed that they had never been taught any in school. But all the people from the south of Finland and the traditional swedish areas have been able to speak swedish.

This is totally OT but I read a quite intresting article about how officials from Åland were pissed because they were unable to communicate with government officials in Helsingfors since they didn't speak swedish well enough.

[Sniffit]

Wouldn't it be just better if we both joined NATO. Both Finnish and Swedish troops actively take part in NATO peacekeeping operations and practices. Since Norway and the Baltic countries are also NATO members, the defence co-operation could be expanded even further. After all, everyone's just afraid of Russia.

Of course but that is, atleast in Sweden, politically unacceptable.

[oregano]

It's Helsinki in English, btw. Åland is still a part of Finland, so the officials should be able to speak Finnish.

[oregano]

Of course but that is, atleast in Sweden, politically unacceptable.

Can you explain why. I'm not familiar with Swedish politics.

[kosse]

May I ask what part of Finland you come from? Because most finns that i have met have been from some outback town in the forrests and they didn't speak or understand a word of swedish and claimed that they had never been taught any in school. But all the people from the south of Finland and the traditional swedish areas have been able to speak swedish.

This is totally OT but I read a quite intresting article about how officials from Åland were pissed because they were unable to communicate with government officials in Helsingfors since they didn't speak swedish well enough.
I come from those "outbacks" in the eastern part of Finland, in fact you can't get more far away from Sweden anywhere else in Finland. p-)

As for being able to communicate in swedish..Everyone here has recieved same teaching but it's not nearly everyone who has really wanted to learn from it or master what they have been taught. Most ordinary guys just don't give a damn about education and especially about subject they don't see they will need in their lives. If you go to talk to some welder in the south Finland it's pretty safe to guess that he doen't speak any better swedish than the guys here in the outbacks. About yoiur own experiences..I don't know what kind of slimes you have met but there's no change to dodge swedish lessons because of compulsory education and that's same for everybody. So those guys have been lying or they have gone to school in some other country.

[Kaapeli]

I didn't know that Sweden had it's own modern Ground-to-Air missile designs. Have they been exported anywhere?

[Sniffit]

It's Helsinki in English, btw. Åland is still a part of Finland, so the officials should be able to speak Finnish.

No, actually according to the 1921 treaty mediated by the League of Nations Finland has to ensure the people of Åland their right to the Swedish language and culture, Åland also stand as a guarantee that the rights of the swedish minority in Finland is respected. If this is not met Finland lose the right to the islands.


Can you explain why. I'm not familiar with Swedish politics.

Because we have not been at war for 198 years and most swedes would like to keep it that way. Most swedes think that a NATO membership would only increase the risk of us having to fight wars for the USA and see no threat from Russia.


I come from those "outbacks" in the eastern part of Finland, in fact you can't get more far away from Sweden anywhere else in Finland. p-)

As for being able to communicate in swedish..Everyone here has recieved same teaching but it's not nearly everyone who has really wanted to learn from it or master what they have been taught. Most ordinary guys just don't give a damn about education and especially about subject they don't see they will need in their lives. If you go to talk to some welder in the south Finland it's pretty safe to guess that he doen't speak any better swedish than the guys here in the outbacks. About yoiur own experiences..I don't know what kind of slimes you have met but there's no change to dodge swedish lessons because of compulsory education and that's same for everybody. So those guys have been lying or they have gone to school in some other country.

HAHA ok, well they didn't speak english either so I had to have a finnish friend interprit for me.

I had a friend in Helsinki and he said that if you wanted to work as a salesman for instance you had to be able to speak swedish, so I just asumed that pople in the south spoke better swedish then they rest.

[Sniffit]

I didn't know that Sweden had it's own modern Ground-to-Air missile designs. Have they been exported anywhere?

No we don't even have it and hopefully never will get it.

[Gluten]

Would that mean in practice that Swedish and Finnish jets would patrol over both countries? I don't want Saabs flying in my airspace...

saab is the SH!T!!!

[Gluten]

There's of course 100'ds of parameters and details to discuss but simply put:

SU-30 and SU-27 series come with larger and more powerful radars than the APG-73 of the Finnish hornets, they can also stay on station for longer times and has a far better BVR capability. Especially the Australians have done quite a bit of research into how their F-18s would cope with the new Russian jets.

Compared to the Finnish Hornets the Gripen's have >30% longer intercept range, better acceleration, and can seperate BVRAAM missiles at a higher speed while at the same time bring a significantly lower RCS and its nice detection range to the table. It's also more agile for dogfights. In short, the jet has better fundamental chances to come out as the winner. Technology typically will win over blind faith.

They also have a funded upgrade path including M-AESA radar and METEOR missile integration.

The gripen is made for defending sweden aginst MIGs

[Lazarou]

Are they're languages similar?
No, they're not related. The bond between our nations is purely cultural and historical.

I noticed Finland uses Russian and American aircraft
(Mig-21 and F-18) rather then Swedish fighters.
The last FAF MiG-21 flew in 1998.

This is totally OT but I read a quite intresting article about how officials from Åland were pissed because they were unable to communicate with government officials in Helsingfors since they didn't speak swedish well enough.
Ålandians and other Swedish Finns have every right to cherish their language and culture, but IMO Finnish and Swedish should have an equal status in Åland and their officials should act accordingly. After all, Finnish is the No.1 language of the republic - Swedish is only spoken by a 5.6% minority. And one should also remember that Åland was (presumably) Finno-Ugric once upon a time... ;)

[Gluten]

finnish version of swedish is somewhat different from yours which hampers understanding a bit.

yep and thats because they developed different after Russia took finland away from us i belive, and finnishswedish has an finnish accent to.

[oregano]

I agree with Lazarou, why should 95% study Swesidh, when the 5% could study Finnish.

P.S. Lakupekka kiellettiin.

[Thor]

Of course but that is, atleast in Sweden, politically unacceptable.
For now at least. Unless both moderates and social democrats agree on it it won't happen.

But NATO may not be exactly what everyone think it is. As I see it really comes down to the US if and how defence guarantees are put into action (just look how unwilling Germany and others are to send even a few hundred troops to southern A-stan) and in that case we might just as well skip European NATO and pursuit a direct transatlantic tie.

[Gluten]

I agree with Lazarou, why should 95% study Swesidh, when the 5% could study Finnish.

P.S. Lakupekka kiellettiin.

thats true, but its a plus if u want to go to us and pic up some blond bombshellsp-)

[oregano]

In Finland the bombshells run away if u speak Swedish.

Although i agree that Victoria Silvstedt is hot.:)

[Sniffit]

I agree with Lazarou, why should 95% study Swesidh, when the 5% could study Finnish.

Read what I wrote:
According to the 1921 treaty mediated by the League of Nations, Finland has to ensure the people of Åland their right to the Swedish language and culture, Åland also stand as a guarantee that the rights of the swedish minority in Finland is respected. If this is not met Finland lose the right to the islands.

[oregano]

I was referring to the whole of Finland. Åland is a demilitarized zone, so I don't give a crap who controls it.

[Thor]

Because we have not been at war for 198 years and most swedes would like to keep it that way. Most swedes think that a NATO membership would only increase the risk of us having to fight wars for the USA and see no threat from Russia.
No, on the contrary people in general believe Russia is much more of a direct threat than some random Farawayistan country. The reason people want to stay non-alliant is because that policy has served us well for 200 years (long before US was a global player). And from a military standpoint it's much better to choose yourself if and when to enter a conflict, and not get drawn into some kind of global WWI domino effect type of alliance.

[kosse]

In Finland the bombshells run away if u speak Swedish.


I beg to disagree. Everything even a bit exotic works like gasoline at least here in the "outbacks" and I doubt a few nice sounding words to a woman'a ear in swedish is any different. It sounds so ghey that it's got to work. :)

Exhange students are good example. They'll pull more sledges in one week than you in a year no matter how ugly or stupid they are roflrofl

[oregano]

Finland got drawn into WW2, even though we were non-alligned. So it's not always about are you yourself alligned.

[Jippo]

Read what I wrote:
According to the 1921 treaty mediated by the League of Nations, Finland has to ensure the people of Åland their right to the Swedish language and culture, Åland also stand as a guarantee that the rights of the swedish minority in Finland is respected. If this is not met Finland lose the right to the islands.

Government and city officials have to speak both languages in all of the country AFAIK. Because Finland is officially bi-lingual country one has to be able to manage his/her matters in their own language where ever they are.

Åland has many excemptions and ways to preserve their culture, but I don't think this is another thing. In Åland a finnish speaking person should be able to go to the tax office for example, and mind their matters in finnish.

Back on topic, I find the idea of nordic alliance quite exciting! NATO is not going to defend nordic countries since it is not any kind of center of gravity looking from Paris or Berlin. Nordic countries are far more important to Nordic peoples than any bureacrat or general in forementioned places.

What would we all gain from it?

Finland:
- would gain secured trading routes via norway and sweden.
- would gain strength in airdefence since sweden has strong airforce.
- would gain secure link to tactical information on the north atlantic
- would gain a buffer zone for north and west.

Sweden:
- would gain buffer zone to east
- would gain tactical information on the finnish gulf and finnish and west russian airspace.
- would gain a lot of land force strength. As downsizing of the swedish land forces continue, soon Sweden will not have anymore effective landforce in sufficient scale.

Norway:
- same as Sweden.

In any case Nordic countries are dependable on each other and far more important to each other than they are to central european states.


-jippo

[oregano]

I beg to disagree. Everything even a bit exotic works like gasoline at least here in the "outbacks" and I doubt a few nice sounding words to a woman'a ear in swedish is any different. It sounds so ghey that it's got to work. :)

Here in the "West Side" (Oulu), it is "ghey".

[oregano]

For Åland we could do what Uuno Turhapuro suggested when he was secretary of defence:" Lahjotetaan koko roska hurreille."

As for the nordic alliance, there already is something going on, for example Finland has a "Department For Nordic Co-operation". It's just a matter of how much the countries are willing to share intel, e.g. the Finnish military is reluctant to share it's superior radio communications knowhow even with the Swedish military.

[kosse]

Back on topic, I find the idea of nordic alliance quite exciting! NATO is not going to defend nordic countries since it is not any kind of center of gravity looking from Paris or Berlin. Nordic countries are far more important to Nordic peoples than any bureacrat or general in forementioned places.

-jippo

I like this idea a lot for the same reasons you mentioned and don't believe in NATO for the same reasons you don't. NATO membership is just a piece of paper with countries that have no cultural ties with you nor real interest to step in in dire times.

[Thor]

e.g. the Finnish military is reluctant to share it's superior radio communications knowhow
Are you drunk?


Here in the "West Side" (Oulu), it is "ghey".
In Sweden finns are considered gayish. Mark Levengood, Pekka Heino, Tom of Finland etc.

[oregano]

More importantly, the nordic countries should improve e.g. common energy policies. As we have seen these past two new years, Russia is not a very reliable source of energy. The nordic alliance is a good idea, just like kossu explained.

Maybe the alliance could also develop it's own caliber, like NATO did.:)

[oregano]

Are you drunk?


In Sweden finnish is considered gayish. Mark Levengood, Tom of Finland etc.

I don't drink. If you've listened during your history lessons, you would now about Finland's succesful radio communications technology, even in WW2.

In Finland, Sweden is considered gay. Swedish language, you're avatar, Basshunter etc.

[Gluten]

Finland got drawn into WW2, even though we were non-alligned. So it's not always about are you yourself alligned.

thats because ur next to russia and stalin was crazy, but i think that the finns did a great job

[Gluten]

I don't drink. If you've listened during your history lessons, you would now about Finland's succesful radio communications technology, even in WW2.

In Finland, Sweden is considered gay. Swedish language, you're avatar, Basshunter etc.

Basshunter is destroying our reputatipn with his pro counter strike and bad music sh!t

[Kaapeli]

It's nice how you've managed to stay on topic. :)

Anyway I've been wondering is the Swedish defence industry doing well and profitable? I mean for a small country Sweden has a large and non-specialized defence industry. Most nations of this size have specialized in one or two areas so they can remain competitive.

[Hecatonchiros]

Basshunter is destroying our reputatipn with his pro counter strike and bad music sh!t

I don´t think he´s doing anything worse than Pandora, Ace of Base, Army of Lovers etc. have already done.... oh, and The Ark. Jesus, that stuff is gayer than a barrel full of monkeys on nitrous oxide.

But Sweden does produce some great bands too, so all is forgiven.

[Resurrection]

No we don't even have it and hopefully never will get it.

He's not referring exclusively to the Bamse; RBS 70/90 are also Swedish designs. The latter systems have been, as I'm sure you know, widely exported.

[Thor]

If you've listened during your history lessons, you would now about Finland's succesful radio communications technology, even in WW2.
I'm sure you're doing fine, but I dare to say that there is probably no country in the world has an edge over us in that field.


you're avatar
Only a homo****** would see something ****** in a man's bare chest. Hence I see nothing gay about my avatar.


Basshunter
He may be a ridiculous teenage character but he has probably humped more girls than most people around here. p-)


and The Ark. Jesus, that stuff is gayer than a barrel full of monkeys on nitrous oxide
The singer is gay, and his name is Ola Salo. :)

[Sniffit]

Åland has many excemptions and ways to preserve their culture, but I don't think this is another thing. In Åland a finnish speaking person should be able to go to the tax office for example, and mind their matters in finnish.


WHy would a finnish speaking person have to go to the tax office on Åland? He can't own property there.

Ontopic:

The idea of a nordic alliance has been brought up by Sweden before and not only did we mange to piss of the US but most of western europe as well with that one.

@Kaapeli: The swedish defence industry is very profitable (well except for the Gripen witch was a misstake)

THe RBS 70 is an ancient design and practically worthless since it's not an all weather system. RBS 90 is a decent system, however it has a very limited range.

[Hecatonchiros]

The singer is gay, and his name is Ola Salo. :)

O noes! Perhaps he is related to Tommy Salo, the other famous swedish-finnish butt pirate? p-)

Or maybe not, seeing as Ola Salos´ real name is "Rolf Ola Anders Svensson", at least according to Wikipedia.... can´t get much more swedish than that, without sticking a bunch of Å´s somewhere in that name. :)

[Thor]

(well except for the Gripen witch was a misstake)
Gripen was built for defence and industry purposes, not to become an export product.


THe RBS 70 is an ancient design and practically worthless
RBS 70 is a combat proven, extremely successful design. It's basically impossible to jam and countermeasures are useless. And with upgrades it's still great.

Australia, Czech Republic and Latvia bought systems in 2003 and 2004.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/rbs70/


Or maybe not, seeing as Ola Salos´ real name is "Rolf Ola Anders Svensson", at least according to Wikipedia....
According to Wikipedia.. I doubt he would choose a finnish name as a stage name, especially the name of a somewhat infamous hockey keeper. More likely he is a finnish immigrant.

[Jµµso]

http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/juttu.php?id=102477

Håkan Syrén says that Swedish army is too weak to defent itself. I dont understand how is that possible....they have everything more than Finland.

[Thor]

Lots of money spent on few units and defence industry projects. 10 years ago we spent the same money and had 10 times the size of today.

But I would like to see the exact quote of Håkan Syrén. It doesn't sound like he would actually say something like that.

[oregano]

According to Reserviläinen magazine, it would take 3 years to deploy the whole Swedish military to full defence capability.

Was it Bush who once said that Sweden doesn't have an army, it turned out that he was talking about Switzerland.:)

[Gluten]

I don´t think he´s doing anything worse than Pandora, Ace of Base, Army of Lovers etc. have already done.... oh, and The Ark. Jesus, that stuff is gayer than a barrel full of monkeys on nitrous oxide.

But Sweden does produce some great bands too, so all is forgiven.

thats true

[Gluten]

WHy would a finnish speaking person have to go to the tax office on Åland? He can't own property there.



@Kaapeli: The swedish defence industry is very profitable (well except for the Gripen witch was a misstake)


Misstake??? the gripen is not an misstake, it suits our purpouses ver very well and it is more cost effective then all our other planes, but when it comes to exporting it it has been hard.

[Kaapeli]

Well I guess the real question is has the Gripen been a cost effective choice not if it's a good weapon.
At the moment I have to say it looks like the answer is no.

I believe Sweden has to specialize more in the future to stay competitive in the defence industry. Finland has already done this (wheeled lightly armored vehicles and some other highly specialized products like electronics).

[Gluten]

Well I guess the real question is has the Gripen been a cost effective choice not if it's a good weapon.
At the moment I have to say it looks like the answer is no.

I believe Sweden has to specialize more in the future to stay competitive in the defence industry. Finland has already done this (wheeled lightly armored vehicles and some other highly specialized products like electronics).

not a good weapon, it´s a great weapon!

[Sniffit]

Gluten grow up. The Gripen has been all but cost effective, if we had use for around 200 of them they would have been cost effective now they aint. We had been better of buying american aircraft (economicaly, not politicaly or quality wise).

[Kippari]

I was under impression that FDF is going to upgrade the Hornets with some new radars or something. It's also interesting to see how the new intelligence network develops as Finland is clearly putting more effort building a more dynamic and more specialized defence plan with more long-range firepower and more developed air-control systems. Atleast the electronic-warfare center/school in Tikkakoski AFB looks pretty neat and modern. I obviously don't know how it looks like in the base below the ground, tho...
I think we should wait till the fifth gen. jets come available in free market and see which one is the best suited for us and buy it and sell the f-18 to somewhere else since it needs pretty much upgrading and money to do so.
Just my thoughts...:roll:

[Gluten]

Gluten grow up. The Gripen has been all but cost effective, if we had use for around 200 of them they would have been cost effective now they aint. We had been better of buying american aircraft (economicaly, not politicaly or quality wise).

I am but i still think its a great air craft but all this is offtopic

[stayr]

a little off =))
Hi from Pietari(Saint-Petersburg) guys
I like Finland! We would be living in peace
Levi - rulezzz

[anv2]

I was under impression that FDF is going to upgrade the Hornets with some new radars or something.

I remember seeing a notification of potential military sale to Finland in last autumn, which included AN/APG-73 Expand 4/5 upgrades for the F-18s. AFAIK this upgrade will mainly improve the presentation of radar data to the pilot. I'm not sure if actual capabilities of the radar are improved.

[Kaapeli]

RBS 70 is a combat proven, extremely successful design. It's basically impossible to jam and countermeasures are useless. And with upgrades it's still great.

Australia, Czech Republic and Latvia bought systems in 2003 and 2004.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/rbs70/

I read from the newspapers today that Finland is going to buy RBS 70 too with 67 million euros.
So can't be too obsolete since there were plenty of MANPADs to choose from...

[Maskirovka]

THe RBS 70 is an ancient design and practically worthless since it's not an all weather system. RBS 90 is a decent system, however it has a very limited range.



Originally Posted by Kaapeli
I didn't know that Sweden had it's own modern Ground-to-Air missile designs. Have they been exported anywhere?

No we don't even have it and hopefully never will get it.


And yesterday we could read that Finland is buying RBS-70 BOLIDE...

:) :) at Sniffit