The first Modern War?

[obd]

Hmm well my vote goes to either the Crimean War or the Civil War but I would have to say the Civil War for the following reasons:

1. First war to fully utilize advances of Industrial Revolution

2. First war where Army sizes reach 100,000 and above. Previously Army sizes hovered closer to 10,000-15,000 for individual army groups due to logistics issue for such large concentrations of men..... In the civil war, several seperate armies existed, a few at over 100,000 men and others at arond 60,000-80,0000. No other nation previously managed to supply such huge numbers of large armies fighting battles in different areas........(this is primarily the Union I'm talking about as the south couldnt muster as many men in one place for long periods mostly although they did have a few large armies)

3. First extensive use of railroads (over 22,000 miles of rail in the border states alone)

4.First large scale use of steam powered navies.( which allowed upstream navigation of rivers which were the primary invasion routes of Union army in some areas)

5 Largest increase in productivity per time period in economic world history (this award goes to the north)

6. First use of submarines (the Henley) and also first use of the torpedo

7. First use of spotter balloons in war as forward observers

8. First large scale use of rifled weapons (although had limited use prior to Civil War) and also first large scale naval use of explosive shells

9. First large scale use of trench warfare (again, this had been seen in Europe but was not perfected and no coherant strategy existed for them because it was so new. The Civil war saw the first ever large scale use of trenches as well as trench warfare doctrine developed for first time)

10. First use of scoped rifles...and first large scale units of dedicated snipers (this award goes to the South)- a few marksman had been seen in previous wars, especiially on naval vessels to try to take out officers in close combat but this was the first time true snipers were employed who could hit targets without beeing seen... Scoped rifles in the civil war could hit a man out to 300 yards and in some cases longer.... Up until the civil war by far the most often used firearm was the smoothbore musket with very limited range but quicker reloads anf it was easier to train men to use them..............

11. first ever use of "Ironclads" in war.

12. First wartime large scale use of telegraph for military communications

13. Largest single gunpowder factory in world history, including up to today. (in Augusta, Georgia)

14. First use of active duty employment of African American soldiers in the regular army. (this one Im not 100% about) Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanx in advance.

15. Frist war that was a true "total war" of modern times... Example: South mobilzaed 75% of white men between 15-50 years of age. North mobilized 50% (which is reason for productivity increase due to mechanization of labor to make up for lost men ot the war) No other such large scale mobilization has ever occured, even in WW2 in terms of percentage of population mobilized for active military duty..... In ww2 more wore mobilzed for the total war effort but not as front line troops in terms of % of population.....

Anybody got more please mention... Also anybody have other contenders for "First modern war" feel free to give your opinion and backup. Thanx in advance......

[cut]

depends what you mean, true joint warfare has only just started.

[big_les]

Interesting topic, but shouldn't it be in 'Military History'? You're probably right about the American Civil War... I'll have a think.

[hist2004]

Good links on this subject-

http://www.aeragon.com/03/

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/WestTech/x1stmodw.htm


Regards,
Hist2004

[Sabre]

Hmm well my vote goes to either the Crimean War or the Civil War but I would have to say the Civil War for the following reasons:

Ahem! The American Civil War thank you very much, many other countries have had civil wars too.

[foxtrot023]

The 3 main wars that ushered the modern era-

The Crimean War 1850s
The American CW 1860s
The Franco German war of 1870

In chronological order

[obd]

Well I agree that the Crimean was important but it wasnt anywhere near the level of true modern warfare that the American Civil War represented... The list I compiled of advancements during the civil war is long but give me time and I will come up with about 50 more hehehe.....Why do you think the Civil War saw more foreign military observers than any other war to that point: There were so many new things going on that European militaries didnt want to fall behind so they watched it quite closely.........

At first I would have picked the Crimean war but after I did a little research I changed my mind and see the American Civil War as the first truly modern war where so many of the new technologies ushered in during the Industrial Revolution were used....... The Crimean war just doesnt come close in the level of rapid advancement, inter service cooperation, new technologies, new strategies etc..........I mean army, sea, and air power were used..... Snipers, River patrol boats, spotter balloons, explosive shells, scoped rifles, the rilfe itself hehe, trench warfare doctrine etc etc etc... So much that hands down the ACW wins in my book......The Crimean war cant match the ACW in any category relavent to modern war.....am I wrong anyone? Please post some if I am wrong.....

If you have a differnt opinion and think the Crimean war was the first truly modern war feel free to post reasons. I would be interested to hear them....Im sure there are others out there who know more than me about the Crimean war..........

[obd]

I mean, the American Civil War basically incorparatd nearly every aspect of what we consider to be modern warfare today....... The Crimean War did not. It saw only limited advances in certain areas but by now means the sweeping revolutionary changes in warfare seen in the American Civil War...........

[Royal]

While I, and every military historian I've read on the subject agree that the American Civil War was the first 'modern' war your assertation that...


1. First war to fully utilize advances of Industrial Revolution

Has to go to the Peninsula Campain 50 years earlier. Although the Springfield Armoury was certainly the worlds first 'production line' factory. Combat boots for example were mass produced for the British Army after the fiasco of poor footwear exposed on the retreat to Corunna (sound familiar to anyone? ;) ) ...


6. First use of submarines (the Henley) and also first use of the torpedo

IIRC that goes right back to the War of Independance...


8. First large scale use of rifled weapons (although had limited use prior to Civil War) and also first large scale naval use of explosive shells.

again goes back to Sir John Moore and the Peninsula Campiagn - the Rifle Brigade any one?


9. First large scale use of trench warfare (again, this had been seen in Europe but was not perfected and no coherant strategy existed for them because it was so new. The Civil war saw the first ever large scale use of trenches as well as trench warfare doctrine developed for first time)

Not sure what you mean here, trench works have been used in seiges since time immemorial...


10. First use of scoped rifles...and first large scale units of dedicated snipers (this award goes to the South)- a few marksman had been seen in previous wars, especiially on naval vessels to try to take out officers in close combat but this was the first time true snipers were employed who could hit targets without beeing seen... Scoped rifles in the civil war could hit a man out to 300 yards and in some cases longer.... Up until the civil war by far the most often used firearm was the smoothbore musket with very limited range but quicker reloads anf it was easier to train men to use them..............

Sir John Moore and the Rifle Brigade again. The Brigade's tests at the time required every Rifleman to hit a man sized target at 300m. There were cases recorded at Badajoz where Riflemen took out French officers from positions over 600m from the walls.

[Gordon]

Interesting fact concerning sniping, the Peninsular War and the Rifles. During the Retreat to Corunna Rifleman Thomas Plunkett killed the French Commander, General Colbert and, although the distance is not excatly known, has been put between 400m to 800m.

Anyway this guy became a bit of a legend in the 95th because of this shot but unfortunately he, like most of the soldiers then, liked his drink a bit too much which resulted in things like this happening:


While in camp at Campo Mayor, just after the battle of Talavera, Plunkett, a sergeant at the time, was caught drunk on parade by his captain, the Hon. Captain Stewart, and placed under arrest. Despite being a man 'noted for his good humour and humanity' when sober, in his drunken state Plunkett became bent upon revenge. As soon as he was left alone in the guardhouse, he barricaded the door and seized a rifle and vowed to shoot Captain Stewart. Forewarned, the Captain stayed away and Plunkett was persuaded to surrender by Lieutenant Johnston. Court martialled, he was sentenced to the loss of his stripes and three hundred lashes, of which he received thirty-five. The sentence was cut on account of his previous actions and popularity, with even the colonel, Sydney Beckwith, being reluctant to impose the punishment.

[usa320]

The American Civil war, and to some degree, even World War I. That is when you saw tanks, and airplanes, and gas, and heavy arty...

[ExtraT]

I've heard some people mention Anglo Boer war as one of the first modern wars. But I'm not versed enough in it, to make a conclusion.

Anybody has any thoughs about this?

[ikurinturbiini]

One could argue that Napoleon started modern warfare by introducing conscription, creating "people's armies". Hence the immense scale of Napoleonic battles. Apart from peasant risings, war had been a professionals' game where the largest treasury chest normally wins.

The evolution of warfare is a continuum. The answer depends on what one means by "modern."

My guess is that the Boer War is mentioned because of the concentration camps, but I think that the Boer War's real signifigance is psychological: the world's leading military power was (initially) humiliated by the much smaller Boer army, using the tactics of "savages", i.e. not fighting like gentlemen. Ring any bell?

But guerrilla warfare was nothing new. Look up "snapphanar" if you know any Swedish.

I'd say WW1 because of the global scale and the advent of air and armoured warfare. They even introduced WMD! Besides, WW1 had a more profound impact on societies and people's perception on war than any other conflict before or since. Talk about an eye-opener! There was no going back to the ancien regime like after Napoleonic wars; a heap of new states were born, old empires overthrown.

Some argue that WW1 did not end until 1945.

[ExtraT]

One could argue that Napoleon started modern warfare by introducing conscription, creating "people's armies".


Hmmm.. I think you're wrong here: Russia has been conscripting soldiers long before Napoleon.

[Kitsune]

obd's list is somewhat arbitrary.

In the 19th century technology made quite some progress, so in nearly every larger war there were new weapons or tactics used.

The question which was the first "modern" war depends first and foremost on your definition of the word "modern".

If its about the new technologies and tactics...compare obd's list of the American civil war to one of WWI...which would have an sheer endless list, indeed (aeroplanes...a topic by themselves with MGs, parachutes and what not), tanks, flamethorwers, poison gas (chlorine, phosgen, mustard gas)...real artillery, real submarines (the Henley, ah well )...an endless list.

All in all, I would give the title of "first modern war" more to WWI...here you could see many things that would shape war in the modern age for the first time. But again...it depends on what you call "modern".

[Lobo]

Concentration camps were employed by Spanish General Valeriano Weyler in Cuba years before the Boer War.

[foxtrot023]

Well I agree that the Crimean was important but it wasnt anywhere near the level of true modern warfare that the American Civil War represented... The list I compiled of advancements during the civil war is long but give me time and I will come up with about 50 more hehehe.....Why do you think the Civil War saw more foreign military observers than any other war to that point: There were so many new things going on that European militaries didnt want to fall behind so they watched it quite closely.........

At first I would have picked the Crimean war but after I did a little research I changed my mind and see the American Civil War as the first truly modern war where so many of the new technologies ushered in during the Industrial Revolution were used....... The Crimean war just doesnt come close in the level of rapid advancement, inter service cooperation, new technologies, new strategies etc..........I mean army, sea, and air power were used..... Snipers, River patrol boats, spotter balloons, explosive shells, scoped rifles, the rilfe itself hehe, trench warfare doctrine etc etc etc... So much that hands down the ACW wins in my book......The Crimean war cant match the ACW in any category relavent to modern war.....am I wrong anyone? Please post some if I am wrong.....

If you have a differnt opinion and think the Crimean war was the first truly modern war feel free to post reasons. I would be interested to hear them....Im sure there are others out there who know more than me about the Crimean war..........

The ¨modern era¨ in warfare was introduced in the 1850s due to several factors:

1. The congress of Vienna facilitated 40 years free of mayor confrontations, however during that time period several technological advances helped to enter the modern era of warfare (also known as total wars). Those were
2. the train,
3. the industrial revolution (which allowed for better farming techniques) and
4. the rise of nationalism and large conscripts armies.

Hence, due to chronological reasons, the Crimean War is the first ¨modern era¨ war, but both the American Civil War and the Franco Prussian War introduced more new concepts and ideas, abeit done later.

Regards

[ikurinturbiini]

One could argue that Napoleon started modern warfare by introducing conscription, creating "people's armies".


Hmmm.. I think you're wrong here: Russia has been conscripting soldiers long before Napoleon.

Other countries, including Sweden, have had a system of writing peasants into the army's scrolls in the 17th century, if not earlier. And not always voluntarily... Common farm-folk has always been coerced into following knight, mercenary and professional armies, that's an age-old tradition. And then we have Sparta where every man was a soldier. I think that conscription as such is accredited to post-Revolution France, but I'd be interested to know more about the Russian system.

edited for bad English

[ikurinturbiini]

Concentration camps were employed by Spanish General Valeriano Weyler in Cuba years before the Boer War.

I think that again, it's a far older invention than that. Maybe Brits were the first ones to call them that?

[obd]

Hmm Royal, very interesting response (and everyone else responses too).

With regard to "Scoped rifles", Royal, do you mean literally two pieces of glass with etched cross hairs?? Im pretty sure the American Civil War saw the first use of maginified etched scopes.... I probably should have been more clear but correct me if I am wrong... I did not know scopes were used prior to American Civil War. In fact ,all sources I went to said that scopes were first used by military in the ACW....... Can you give me a source for that Royal... I really know nothing about the war you mentioned but what you said made me want to know more..... Not just about scopes but about the war in general... Seems like a rather interesting one....thanks in advance...

Also you right about the subs... I mixed up the American Revolution and the ACW on that one hehe.. Thanks for the correction....

[obd]

Hmm Royal, very interesting response (and everyone else responses too).

With regard to "Scoped rifles", Royal, do you mean literally two pieces of glass with etched cross hairs?? Im pretty sure the American Civil War saw the first use of maginified etched scopes.... I probably should have been more clear but correct me if I am wrong... I did not know scopes were used prior to American Civil War. In fact ,all sources I went to said that scopes were first used by military in the ACW....... Can you give me a source for that Royal... I really know nothing about the war you mentioned but what you said made me want to know more..... Not just about scopes but about the war in general... Seems like a rather interesting one....thanks in advance...

Also you right about the subs... I mixed up the American Revolution and the ACW on that one hehe.. Thanks for the correction....

[obd]

damn why did it double post?? I only hit the damn button ounce...... Argh, then again its 3:00 AM where I live and I have been awake the past 20 hours so I realy cant say anything for sure.....jeez I need sleep.. Goodnight all......

[ExtraT]

I think that there are two components that define the "modern war":

- Mass mobilization
- Industrial effort

And success in both gives a chance to be victorious.

Wars of old mostly relied on professional soldiers, and weapons stockpiled for years before the war began. Later all out wars relied on mobilized "peoples' armies", and mobilized industrial assets to produce weapons.