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Cougar1974
01-17-2007, 12:47 PM
He Guys remember him,.... the Grizzly man is back

with a full exoskeleton body suit of armour weights (only):roll: 18 Kilos
he spended 2 year in lab and $15.000 to build it, and he hopes to protect soldiers in A-stan with.

the suit reminds me of HALO the game

heres the story:http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=hamilton/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1168470616997&call_pageid=1020420665036&col=1014656511815

Anthony91
01-17-2007, 12:49 PM
RMM...........I don't see how the hell it looks like the Spartan's MJOLNIR armor?

Sabre
01-17-2007, 01:27 PM
The whole suit comes in at 18 kilograms. It covers everything but the fingertips and the major joints, and could be mass-produced for about $2,000, Hurtubise says.

So, it doesn't protect the brachial artery, the femoral artery or the popliteal artery...and it doesn't prevent traumatic amputations...

...despite 66% of 'preventable' combat deaths occuring due to extremity haemorrhage...


...oh, but hang on...


Its many features include compartments for emergency morphine and salt,

...perfect for when you've got the tequilla and slice of lemon!

This guys a nutjob.

xEDGEx
01-17-2007, 05:55 PM
He plays too much HALO.

Ol' Bob
01-17-2007, 06:07 PM
Imagine wearing that thing in a 110 degree desert

Roy Batty
01-17-2007, 06:10 PM
Discussed in some detail only 2 days ago folks.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=102544

ctcboy
01-17-2007, 06:13 PM
Here is another article about the suit.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/15/project-grizzly-inventor-crafts-real-world-halo-suit-for-militar/

Ratamacue
01-17-2007, 06:46 PM
So, it doesn't protect the brachial artery, the femoral artery or the popliteal artery...and it doesn't prevent traumatic amputations...

...despite 66% of 'preventable' combat deaths occuring due to extremity haemorrhage...To be fair, leaving the joints exposed is the only way for an armored suit to retain enough mobility to be practical, at least until technology advances enough for fully-enclosed and powered exoskeletons to become available. And even though it doesn't pretect the brachial and femoral arteries in the elbow and groin (respectively), it does protect them in the upper arm and thigh.

PvtPyle
01-18-2007, 12:53 AM
To be fair, leaving the joints exposed is the only way for an armored suit to retain enough mobility to be practical, at least until technology advances enough for fully-enclosed and powered exoskeletons to become available. And even though it doesn't pretect the brachial and femoral arteries in the elbow and groin (respectively), it does protect them in the upper arm and thigh.


Tell me, just how much experience do you have wearing armor? Because your statement is quite wrong. They figured it out a few hundred years ago with layered plate mail, and can do the same today. And they can do it lighter and better.

And personally I think the lumpy POS looks like hell.

Ratamacue
01-18-2007, 01:08 AM
Tell me, just how much experience do you have wearing armor? Because your statement is quite wrong. They figured it out a few hundred years ago with layered plate mail, and can do the same today. And they can do it lighter and better.So I take it that you've invented a new type of armor that can defeat modern ballistic threats while being as flexible as chainmail? You stand to make quite a profit.

The only kind of armor that meets all of those criteria are the in-development shear thickening fluids, and those aren't nearly ready for any kind of military usage. So I retract my statement that the only way to protect joints is when powered armor comes along, but the fact remains that with the technology he's using in his suit, exposing the joints is the best way to retain flexibility.

8thidpathfinderpower
01-18-2007, 02:04 AM
Tell me, just how much experience do you have wearing armor? Because your statement is quite wrong. They figured it out a few hundred years ago with layered plate mail, and can do the same today. And they can do it lighter and better.

And personally I think the lumpy POS looks like hell.

I would not want to insult you, but I am going to ask you what experience do you have with ballistic body armor? From what I have seen of the Intercepter OTV and armor system (kevalar pants included and with upper arm protection and side armor with inserts and groin protection) actually leaves alot of areas exposed. I know when I was in the army, we did not have the intercepter system, but we did have the old fiberglass and PASGT vest and helmet. And, you could bend and move with these, but the protection level was just for shrapnel and maybe, if you got lucky, a 9mm bullet.

I would not call this guys effort a total failure....but MAYBE a step in a right direction for protection. And,as for your remarks about the system, I would bite my tounge, because looks would be the last thing on my mind if I was getting shot at and had to fight for my life.

There is no perfect body armor system out there, and I am pretty sure that if one would be suddenly devoloped, some military or guerilla force would find a way to defeat the protection offered.:bash:

PvtPyle
01-18-2007, 02:07 AM
No, I am not an inventor. But I am an end user, and I have the state body armor contract for this Law Enforcement community here. And there is already several sets of very flexable armor out there that defeat most of the modern threats from small arms. So why re-invent the wheel. This guys system is crap based on what we can see from the article and videos. IMNSHO.

But this guy is a fu@&tard. Watching this video made my head hurt. It is like a used car salesman with a mental illness.

http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/media_archive/jan-11-2007_a.html

And who's armor inserts did he use, and who has tested the balistics of this POS? I have yet to see any tests from this thing. So for now, it is just some freak's fantasy so he can play dress up.

8thidpathfinderpower
01-18-2007, 02:21 AM
Well, if you have the state contract for where you are from for body armor issued to lawenforcement agencies, anwser me this....I am not an expert on terminal ballistics, but, I will tell you what I do know.....there is a BIG difference between armor used for the everyday patrolman, and the everyday soldier in combat. A patrolman, has to either ride in his car, exit his car, and only depend on his vest in a rare event of getting shot at. The rounds used by most criminals would be either in the 9mm class, the .308 0r the 7.62x39mm class, or the .40,.45,.38,.357 and .22 and 5.56mm. class of weapons. Rarely would he encounter a .50 type round or other heavy type ordanince. Even the SRT/SWAT teams would not normally encounter heavy weapon rounds, and they are mostly equipped simular to most infantry units, body protection wise.

But my point I am trying to make is this....the typical flat foot cop will not have to get shot at possibly multiple times on a daily basis, and there fore military requirements are decidely different than law enforcement applications.

I think, that any attempt to make a armor system for soldiers should be applauded and taken very seriously, because it is not the guy who sells body armor to the police that has to depend on it, but the guy in the battle zone that has to fight for his life on a daily basis.

kilroy1911
01-18-2007, 08:08 AM
Well, if you have the state contract for where you are from for body armor issued to lawenforcement agencies, anwser me this....I am not an expert on terminal ballistics, but, I will tell you what I do know.....there is a BIG difference between armor used for the everyday patrolman, and the everyday soldier in combat. A patrolman, has to either ride in his car, exit his car, and only depend on his vest in a rare event of getting shot at. The rounds used by most criminals would be either in the 9mm class, the .308 0r the 7.62x39mm class, or the .40,.45,.38,.357 and .22 and 5.56mm. class of weapons. Rarely would he encounter a .50 type round or other heavy type ordanince. Even the SRT/SWAT teams would not normally encounter heavy weapon rounds, and they are mostly equipped simular to most infantry units, body protection wise.

But my point I am trying to make is this....the typical flat foot cop will not have to get shot at possibly multiple times on a daily basis, and there fore military requirements are decidely different than law enforcement applications.

I think, that any attempt to make a armor system for soldiers should be applauded and taken very seriously, because it is not the guy who sells body armor to the police that has to depend on it, but the guy in the battle zone that has to fight for his life on a daily basis.

Wow, wait a moment.... you wrote there a lot of calibers - from tiny pistol .22 to battlerifle .308 - which can the policemen encounter in the streets. Do your your ordinary cops carry bodyarmor able to stop .308? Even many swat teams didnt have such armor

PvtPyle
01-18-2007, 12:21 PM
I have worn the Interceptor and the BALCS, for an extended period, and now we have the CIRAS. Of course it leaves areas exposed, and they are trying to fix that (though I am not a fan of the side plates and other crap that they are sending down to us).

As for the rank and file law enforcement officer, they do not have near the ballistic protection that the SWAT teams have. but like the new military armor, they have gaps as well. But based on NIJ and DOJ reports, they do not face nearly the varriety of threats as the ones you list. Most common is still the 9mm. The rifle caliber rounds are used in a meer fraction of officer involved shootings. Where as the rifle caliber rounds are the most common ballistic threat to Military.

The Bomb Disposal armor we sell has much better protection, but is of course considerable more bulky and has less protection against high speed projectiles. But the material used to make up EOD armor is somewhat different than a bullet resistan vest due to the threat. I am curious how he has been able to over come that as he claims when Point Blank and Armor Holdings have not done so. Especially at the weight he claims it is.

The best things we have found so far is the Dragon skin. It remains flexable and relatively light, but will stop the common threats out there.

I agree that any step forward or attempt to protect the soldiers better should be taken seriously. But where has this thing been tested? I see no reports of in depth ballistic testing, or any documentation that it has been tested to NIJ standards. So for now, I could not consider it an attempt to protect anyone, it is just another suit for this guy to play dress up in. He says he tested it, show me the results.

Jsjoholm
01-18-2007, 06:15 PM
From article:
"Dangling between the legs, that would be a clock."

Makes me remember the discussion about Argyl and his 'package' a while back..

Delta11
01-18-2007, 06:48 PM
From article:
"Dangling between the legs, that would be a clock."

Makes me remember the discussion about Argyl and his 'package' a while back..

AHAHAH yeahh, went from talking about his gear to his "package"....

8thidpathfinderpower
01-19-2007, 10:05 AM
Wow, wait a moment.... you wrote there a lot of calibers - from tiny pistol .22 to battlerifle .308 - which can the policemen encounter in the streets. Do your your ordinary cops carry bodyarmor able to stop .308? Even many swat teams didnt have such armor

Strange as that may sound, the calibers I mentioned are those calibers that are commonly found on the street, in the hands of criminals, ready to be used. Now, with that being said, here is a very interesting memorandum published on the www.peosoldier.army.mil website about the use of dragonskin armor, and the required useage to stop. The paper states, that the army has tested it, and found it to be unsatisfactory in the protection of soldiers that use them, good read.

Exoskeletons and full body armor is nothing new, in concept at least, and if this guy is even in the remotest chance on to something, hopefully someone takes a look at his ideas, they strangely may work.....

Redguy
01-19-2007, 10:08 AM
You just can't jump from a vest to a full space suit. Getting that thing on and off would be a pain in the ass.

8thidpathfinderpower
01-19-2007, 10:13 AM
You just can't jump from a vest to a full space suit. Getting that thing on and off would be a pain in the ass.

I would only begin to imagine the misery the poor soul would want to inflict on others after being in that suit for extended periods of time in the heat without cooling, or use of a toilet...but, I think that there may be help out there......

PvtPyle
01-19-2007, 12:53 PM
Now, with that being said, here is a very interesting memorandum published on the www.peosoldier.army.mil website about the use of dragonskin armor, and the required useage to stop. The paper states, that the army has tested it, and found it to be unsatisfactory in the protection of soldiers that use them, good read.

Actually it states:

A. There may be Soldiers deployed in OIF/OEF who are wearing a commercial body armor called "Dragon Skin," made by Pinnacle Armor, in lieu of their issued Interceptor Body Armor (IBA). Media releases and related advertising imply that Dragon Skin is superior in performance to IBA. The Army has been unable to determine the veracity of these claims.

B. The Army has been involved in the development of Dragon Skin and the different technology it employs. In its current state of development, Dragon Skin's capabilities do not meet Army requirements. In fact, Dragon Skin has not been certified by the Army for protection against several small arms threats being encountered in Iraq and Afghanistan today.


It does not say that it is not effective against the ballistic threat, it says the Army has not verified it.

It does say in B. that it does not meet the Army's requirements, but does not say that it is a ballistic issue. The basic armor does not include a groin protector and additional protection for areas off the body. That is an issue for the Army. And most people never wear those pieces anyway. Side plates? Forget it. I can not think of a single person who has been issued them in our unit that has them on their armor. Most guys would not even sign for them, they still sit in the Supply room. Thigh protectors and long sleeves for my arms? Not bloody likely.

A lot has happened with this issue since then. There is much more to the story than what is printed there. Reports from down range say that the Army is WRONG. But the military would never admit that they are buying an armor that is surpassed in effectiveness by one that is about the same price. Yet down range feed back from people being shot with it, says that this is the case. Keep in mind that Defense Review has been wrong on issues before, but they have followed this issue for some time now and nearly all of what they have reported has been back up independently. For those interested, I would start here:

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=925

FWIW, look inside the Interceptor and tell me what the rating is on the soft armor. My new armor does not have an NIJ rating anymore, but says it is only rated to 9mm SMG rounds or less. NIJ says that is only a level II and this has been confirmed by Point Blank. They use level II armor inside of it. (see http://www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/0101.04RevA.pdf ). We never bid level II for LEO's when the new level III is only a few dollars more (and in most cases the agency is not paying for it, we get them funding from another source). On December 20, 2006, the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) issued Pinnacle Armor, Inc. a "Notice of Compliance with NIJ 2005 Interim Requirements". Put into plain English, Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin flexible (anti-rifle) body armor a.k.a. flexible hard armor a.k.a. flexible armor system a.k.a. flexible body armor system is now officially certified at NIJ Level III.

From the document:

C. Soldiers may dispose of unauthorized body armor by sending the items directly to PEO Soldier or by turning them in to the local CIF who will ship the items to PEO Soldier. PEO Soldier will refund shipping expenses from anywhere in the world however, it cannot reimburse any purchase expenses for the items. Contact the PEO Soldier POC identified in paragraph 6 below for shipping instructions.

If they think the majority is going to send the armor to them without compensation, they must be crazy. I would never surrender MY property to them for any reason other than a criminal issue.

I think the system that is being designed with the additional load bearing capabilities is much more interesting than this thing. A cod piece with a clock on it? WTF?

8thidpathfinderpower
01-19-2007, 03:16 PM
Actually it states:

A. There may be Soldiers deployed in OIF/OEF who are wearing a commercial body armor called "Dragon Skin," made by Pinnacle Armor, in lieu of their issued Interceptor Body Armor (IBA). Media releases and related advertising imply that Dragon Skin is superior in performance to IBA. The Army has been unable to determine the veracity of these claims.

B. The Army has been involved in the development of Dragon Skin and the different technology it employs. In its current state of development, Dragon Skin's capabilities do not meet Army requirements. In fact, Dragon Skin has not been certified by the Army for protection against several small arms threats being encountered in Iraq and Afghanistan today.


It does not say that it is not effective against the ballistic threat, it says the Army has not verified it.

It does say in B. that it does not meet the Army's requirements, but does not say that it is a ballistic issue. The basic armor does not include a groin protector and additional protection for areas off the body. That is an issue for the Army. And most people never wear those pieces anyway. Side plates? Forget it. I can not think of a single person who has been issued them in our unit that has them on their armor. Most guys would not even sign for them, they still sit in the Supply room. Thigh protectors and long sleeves for my arms? Not bloody likely.

A lot has happened with this issue since then. There is much more to the story than what is printed there. Reports from down range say that the Army is WRONG. But the military would never admit that they are buying an armor that is surpassed in effectiveness by one that is about the same price. Yet down range feed back from people being shot with it, says that this is the case. Keep in mind that Defense Review has been wrong on issues before, but they have followed this issue for some time now and nearly all of what they have reported has been back up independently. For those interested, I would start here:

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=925

FWIW, look inside the Interceptor and tell me what the rating is on the soft armor. My new armor does not have an NIJ rating anymore, but says it is only rated to 9mm SMG rounds or less. NIJ says that is only a level II and this has been confirmed by Point Blank. They use level II armor inside of it. (see http://www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/0101.04RevA.pdf ). We never bid level II for LEO's when the new level III is only a few dollars more (and in most cases the agency is not paying for it, we get them funding from another source). On December 20, 2006, the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) issued Pinnacle Armor, Inc. a "Notice of Compliance with NIJ 2005 Interim Requirements". Put into plain English, Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin flexible (anti-rifle) body armor a.k.a. flexible hard armor a.k.a. flexible armor system a.k.a. flexible body armor system is now officially certified at NIJ Level III.

From the document:

C. Soldiers may dispose of unauthorized body armor by sending the items directly to PEO Soldier or by turning them in to the local CIF who will ship the items to PEO Soldier. PEO Soldier will refund shipping expenses from anywhere in the world however, it cannot reimburse any purchase expenses for the items. Contact the PEO Soldier POC identified in paragraph 6 below for shipping instructions.

If they think the majority is going to send the armor to them without compensation, they must be crazy. I would never surrender MY property to them for any reason other than a criminal issue.

I think the system that is being designed with the additional load bearing capabilities is much more interesting than this thing. A cod piece with a clock on it? WTF?

I for one would actually trust the army when it came to the issue on armor. As amazing as it may seem, the only thing I have a problem with dragon skin on is the fact IT DOES NOT PROTECT like the interceptor system does. The concept of a flexible, soft armor capable of stopping most threats is great, even if it is on paper. But, when the facts are put down and my life is on the line, I would choose the system that is proven, and offers great protection in all areas..impact, fragmentation, and penatration, and that for US Forces, is the interceptor system. The Army actually tests these systems quite well before they would deploy them into combat, and there fore I would trust my life to it.

There is ALOT more to take into account when devoloping, and fielding a armor system that will save lives, and unfortunatly, on the flip side, the enemy has almost equal ways of defeating all armor systems, one way or another.

8thidpathfinderpower
01-19-2007, 03:20 PM
I would like to bring up one more point....the level of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan requires that the Army use level III and IV armor...even if troops like the flexibility of lighter armor.

Hey Pyle, here is one for you...PM Argyll, and ask him about armor useage in Iraq, and ask him which typeof armor he would use...he is there right now, and would probably help you out more.

PvtPyle
01-19-2007, 03:54 PM
I have not been to Iraq, but two of out instructors here have. But while I was in Afghanistan we worked with contractors and regular Army. I have a bit of field experience with the BALCS and the Interceptor. I, like many other guys used the flexability at the time (prior to the Army saying we could not) used other armor than the issue. If thats what you would choose, great. But I will still deploy again with other armor inside the issue cover.

But all that still does not show any kind of testing that this things has been subjected to.