MagPul Factory Tour---Part one: The Masada

[SMGLee]

2007 Shot Show kicked off the New Year with a bang from MagPul. The team of hard working crew at MagPul put together a new rifle within a 3 months time spam at the cost of less then 70k. The Masada was hit within the Law enforcement section, bring record crowd to the MagPul booth for the entire length of the show. Rich at MagPul will admit first that the new rifle are still a full year away from production and they will work to get it to the market unless a much larger company with more resources to take the project under their wings.

The Masada is only a code name, but this rifle not only brought a fresh air to the clustered AR market, but also show the capability of a smaller company to produce a weapon that can compete with the big boys with a budget that seem minuscule compare to the what some of the price it cost the military to bring in new weapon system. The Masada started with a machined aluminum receiver which is the serialized part. This machined receiver has a continuous rail that extends all the way to the integrated folding front sight. The front sight uses a standard M16 front post. The front sight deploys manually but requires a push of a button to fold it back down. Masada has what is in vogue right now, which is a quick change barrel with the capability for multiple calibers within one system. A harden barrel trunnion is at this time screwed into the receiver with interrupted threads much like what you would find on an artillery piece. This harden piece will ensure longevity with the barrel to trunnion interface under heavy use. The barrel of the Masada is a standard M4 affair, but with modified pieces to fit the quick change barrel locking collar and also the gas piston. In the production model, the Masada will feature an adjustable gas port where now an Allen screw resides for research to determine the proper gas port size.

Since the Masada receiver is the serialized part of the weapon, the lower trigger housing is a polymer non-impact component which contains the ambidextrous magazine release, bolt release and also the trigger group. The stock of the Masada is attached to the trigger housing by a captured pin. This method of componentry ensures the modularity of the weapon system. An operator can select a range of different stock option to best fit the mission perimeter. Currently a PRS style stock is part of the SPR offering. Back to the trigger housing, Rich and I discussed some of the short comings of the M16 selector and he stated the current selector design are something he is not satisfied with, it remain one of the biggest weak point of his Masada design. A future development of the selector will be forth coming to possibly alter the rotation of the selector to make it more ergonomic to the operator. The ability to incorporate the M16 trigger system means an operator in country can easily find trigger components such as pins and springs to supplement this weapon without having to find logistic in a remote battle field.

The Masada stock is nice touch with wide range of adjustability. The stock will fold much like the FN SCAR to reduce size for transport and also adjust for length of pull to best fit someone with armor. The cheek piece is also adjustable with two different heights. The folding mechanism utilizes a spring to retain the stock while it is folded and a latch to secure the stock while it is extended. A recoil buffer can be fitted to the stock if necessary. The stock as mentioned before it independent from the trigger housing.

With is modularity, the system can go from 5.56 to 5.45 with a simple change of the trigger housing, bolt carrier group and also the barrel. Currently a 5.56, 5.45, 6.8 are scheduled for this version. A possible development of the 7.62x51 and 7.62 x 39 are in the future but with various project under work, MagPul has no time table to those calibers as of yet. The 5.45 trigger housing will have a thumb lever release without the bolt held open release, but the 5.56 and the future 6.8 will have the ambidextrous magazine release and also the bolt held open release. The bolt held open device is a lot like the XM8 or even the older FN FAL. It is right where your finger is at and it is easily manipulated.

Masada will be a piston driven unit, with the piston system as part of a self contain unit with the barrel. If you change the caliber, you do not have to worry about changing piston, each barrel will have its own piston much like the SCAR.

Here is an interesting part of the Masada. The trunnion has two harden steel rails riveted to it. Those two rails are then riveted into the aluminum receiver. The Bolt carrier travels on the steel rail to create a steel to steel interface. This interface yields the smoothest bolt travel in the industry. The design of the trunnion and the rail also ensure under heavy use, the heat transfer will not affect accuracy like what happened with the XM8. With the rail firmly secured to the receiver, it will make sure the trunnion will not be able to shift in the aluminum receiver under extreme heat.

The bolt carrier is much like the G36 or the SCAR. But the charging handle are interchangeable for right or left. A runner that secures the charging handle also locks into the bolt carrier to engage it for chambering a round or it can be used for malfunction clearance. The non-receptacle charging handle can be locked in to act as a forward assist.

A new rail system is also optional for those that require accessories to be attached to the Masada. The rail system retains the free float of the barrel and has sling swivel attachment points build in on both side.

MagPul has a few things to figure out like the recoil spring rate, piston setup, manufacturing process and sub-contractors. I think the more MagPul is having to answer calls and reply e-mails, the less time they would have to work on the rifle. They already know how well received this rifle has been, let's give them time to get this to the market.

Masada is a project that may grow larger then what MagPul can contain, this little monster that awe the show goers will no debut be the focus of may in the up coming year.

Here are some more photos of the gun taken during a trip to Colorado this past week.


http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-024.jpg
the 20 inch variant that could be a excellent replacement for the M16A4.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-023.jpg

Magpul with rail system
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-022.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-020.jpg
Complete free float system.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-019.jpg
From this photo you can clear see the ejection port is not blocked by the folding stock. The rail system adds some weight to the otherwise lightweight Masada. The standard Masada weights in at a feather 6lbs.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-018.jpg
Close up of the rail which replaces the standard handguard.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-016.jpg
Build in QD sling swivel point

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-017.jpg
The top rail is part of the integrated receiver, the rail handguard will provide the side and bottom rail. Note the front sight post. It is a standard AR15 affair which can be replace with any after market posts. The front sight are secured with a locking tab which require activation when you secure it back into the body of the receiver.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-013.jpg
This is harden steel trunnion interface with the receiver and bolt carrier rails. Currently all parts are screwed together, future MP version is still being determined.
Notice the steel rail that is riveted to the receiver. Those pieces all screwed together forms a solid platform for the barrel assembly which will not shift during heavy use. Since the two supporting rails extends the entire length of the receiver and they are riveted to the receiver, even if the aluminum receiver got super heated, the likely chance for the trunnion to shift with all the added structure support is nil.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-011.jpg
The two rails and the trunnion.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-009.jpg
More pictures of the trunnion with the locking collar for the QD barrel. Along with the recoil spring and rod.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-025.jpg
Gas block

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-021.jpg
The stock are pin together with a spring inside that help secure the stock in the folded position.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-014.jpg
Work table with a bunch of PMAG in the background

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-012.jpg
Rich putting together test sample of Masada.

[Frens]

awsome pics as always SMGLee! thanks for sharing!

[Hollis]

awsome pics as always SMGLee! thanks for sharing!


Yes!! Thanks for sharing. Maybe next Year, I will go.

[Gene2]

Just a question--

Does anyone here think there will be a chance of this rifle (if it is a possible M4 replacement) being loaded with Polymer cased ammunition in the near future? Since it is a program being pursued by AAI Corp, maybe it would be a good alternative to Brass ammo. But, just remember, I am JUST asking.

[devil99]

Another brilliant creation of MagPul.

[muttbutt]

Excellent photos as usual


Mr Lee for MODwoot

[chauncy republicans]

I'll stick with my ARs.

[Anthony91]

Great pics SMGLee. :D:D. I'm liking the 20-inch Masada variant.

[Paulinski]

Thanks for the great pics SMGLee. I can't wait for Magpul to mass produce the Masada although I would never get rid of my AR's I'm really exited about this project.

[TacoDelRio]

Thanks Chen. Looks friggin' snazzy!

[Createdeemcee]

Chen one question, Will those ribbed mags fit standard ar's?

Heres the info PDF of the weapons Charactoristics.

http://www.magpul.com/Masada_inside.pdf

[SMGLee]

While developing the CTR stock, MagPul team ran across a new polymer compound that was very tough. A quick idea came about on using this material for a new M16 magazine. Quickly the team went into brain storm mode and came up with the new PMAG. The PMAG is a rugged and durable magazine that can be used as a substitute for mil-std aluminum GI mags. The polymer construction ensures a uniformed magazine that is the same from one to the next. This could be curial for the soldier that does not number their magazines and have to return the magazines back to the armory once they are done. This new approach to the M16 magazine can guarantee each and every MagPul PMAG will be exactly the same from batch to batch.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-057.jpg
PMAG with the serial number 1 MagPul receiver.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-062.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-057.jpg
A little comparison photo on the PMAG vs. the old thermold.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-066.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-064.jpg

Notice how the Thermold used a clip that held in the floor plate? The MagPul uses a Steyr AUG style system to secure the floor plate in place. I never had any problem with the Steyr floor plates. Good move on MagPul’s part.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-065.jpg
Notice thge reinforced rib down the inside of the Magpul PMAG? Nice touch with out having to resort to the Thermold’s adding material to the body to compensate for the lack of material around the curve of the magazine. also notice the much beefier feed lips.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-051.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-068.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-046.jpg
Going full auto…

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-045.jpg
Drake of MagPul fame test firing the PMAG through a few different weapons for reliability and functionality test. And loading ….how do you load in the cold with out a LULA?
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-043.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-050.jpg
Mike the brains behind MagPul pull trigger.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-041.jpg
An unsighted XCR also were pressed into service to make sure the magazine is functional with various platform that utilize the AR magazine.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-002.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-001.jpg

By the way, this is Jake pulling me out of Snow…sigh!

[vajt]

Maybe I missed it in one of the posts but what's the weight of the Masada rifle? It looks to be extremely light.

-----JT-----

[scrybe]

Awesome new set of toys. I gotta hurry up and get outta college so I can afford to buy some of these new toys.

[TacoDelRio]

Sold the Acura eh?

[Createdeemcee]

Thanks Again Chen, Summed that up very nicely. When will these mags be Civi Ready?

[GoSka37]

Great stuff!

[SMGLee]

Chen one question, Will those ribbed mags fit standard ar's?

Heres the info PDF of the weapons Charactoristics.

http://www.magpul.com/Masada_inside.pdf

those ribbed mags are Eastern bloc 5.56 magazine pattern off the AK74 mags.

the MagPul PMAG will fit any and all rifle that accepts a mil-std M16 magazine.


Thanks Again Chen, Summed that up very nicely. When will these mags be Civi Ready?

They will be shipping them soon. this magazine will be civilian legal in states that allows hi-cap magazines.

[Hydro]

Any reason why the "Eastern Bloc" Masada was designed without a hold open? If they're producing their own magazines for it, they could've designed them with followers that engaged a bolt hold open device.

Or is there an issue when interchanging MagPul mags and other EB magazines in either the Masada or AK variants?

[SMGLee]

Any reason why the "Eastern Bloc" Masada was designed without a hold open? If they're producing their own magazines for it, they could've designed them with followers that engaged a bolt hold open device.

Or is there an issue when interchanging MagPul mags and other EB magazines in either the Masada or AK variants?


The eastern bloc mag is what is on the market, this is not a MagPul designed magazine. it would be no use if the caliber conversion CAN ONLY BE USED WITH mAGpUL DESIGNED MAGS.

Their PMAG is only for M16 systems or any rifle that is designed to take a M16 magazine.

I can not go to MagPul and not do a review on the UBR. In my honest opinion, this UBR is one of the best stocks available. To be honest, I hated the M93B, it was complicated and it just did not feel right. I did not like the latching system, but that is the past. Now comes the much, and I mean much improved URB. First of all, the improved latching system is a cinch to operate; the mechanism has room for dirt and grit to clear out with out jamming the operation. The stock are made more robust with much better ergonomics. Although it lacks the storage compartment of the competitors but storage container is being design into the system. The latching system is a one hand operation. The force you place on the rifle with your strong hand and using the support side to activate the latch and the stock will slide freely on the redesigned buffer tube. And if you require a very précised placement of the stock on a certain notch on the buffer tube, you can grasp the stock like a pistol and activate latch and place the stock at the exact point that you desire.

Here are some pics of the UBR.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-052.jpg
Rich posing with his serial number 1 MagPul receiver, new PMAG and the UBR.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-060.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-061.jpg
Zak posing with the URB showing the very nice cheek weld the buffer tube provides.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-055.jpg
Getting some trigger time, getting a feel of the UBR.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-048.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-076.jpg
Grasping for the latch until Rich taught me the faster way to adjust the stock.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-074.jpg
Close up

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/Magpul-067.jpg
Drake catching brass from Mike.

Look for the UBR within the first quarter of this year. it is ready for production, just waiting for MagPul to sort out the final detail with a few sub-contractors.

[Hydro]

Aha. I see. I thought MagPul designed their own magazine for both variants.

I see what you mean about the calibre conversion, but so-called "battlefield pickup" magazines just wouldn't engage the hold open.

This is just me being picky, it does make sense to go with whats already out there than to complicate things. I still think MagPul are riding a winner there.

[Createdeemcee]

They will be shipping them soon. this magazine will be civilian legal in states that allows hi-cap magazines.


You tryin to break my heart here? just kidding. :)

Magpul as a company is really impressing me with the endless mods for AR's that they are coming with.

[Seiran]

That new stock (UBR) is lookin' really nice. Just one question (I might have missed this earlier as I read this at 3am) but what sort of receiver is that?

[Createdeemcee]

That new stock (UBR) is lookin' really nice. Just one question (I might have missed this earlier as I read this at 3am) but what sort of receiver is that?


I believe that is magpul as well.

[Seraphim]

Yes that is the Magpul lower.

[kongman]

man that masada is one awsome looking ass rifle

[Dan2004]

When will these mags be Civi Ready?

The mags are nice, but I'd like to know when the rifle its self will be civi ready. And I hope that I won't have to pay out the ass to obtain one.

[KevinNardelle]

Answer me this, the older AR polymer mags had a problem cracking in cold weather conditions, what makes these newer ones different?

[SMGLee]

Answer me this, the older AR polymer mags had a problem cracking in cold weather conditions, what makes these newer ones different?

In the past 20 years, there has been a dramatic increase in plastic technology. with the latest compound, Magpul is pretty sure the PMAG can withstand the harshness of military operations.

Like i stated above, increased feed lip thickness, reinforce rib down the front of the mag, anit tilt follower and a AUG like floor plate, it all add up to form a pretty durable magazine on paper.. we will have to see how the mag really react under public use. I am waiting on a few from MagPul to run some tests on.




The Masada should....Again I said SHOULD be available in the next 18 months and it will cost at around 1400.00

[KevinNardelle]

Wow that is very reasonable!! I paid a big chunk of change for my AR but I never have seen one like it. I was told its the Canadian military model, I dont know, I do know I like it. I can't wait for them to come out although Jesus only knows what the dems will do to gun laws and semiautos, most likely widdle the 2nd down to the nub again - from what I see they are well on their way. I hope I can get me one of these bad boys before hand - god forbid..

[mcsplurry]

looks awsome but i still think that the hk416 will win the contract:)

[Seraphim]

looks awsome but i still think that the hk416 will win the contract:)

Man wtf are you talking about???

[mcsplurry]

never mind

[mohica]

looks awsome but i still think that the hk416 will win the contract:)

The 416 has already been rejected by SOCOM. Too bad so sad for HK. Other piston uppers are proving to be simpler i.e. Colt, which is basically the same unit that went through the SCAR trials with flying colors. Colt just got a contract for 200,000+ M4's so I wouldn't look for their piston upper any time soon though.

The LWRC piston system looks pretty good too.

[mcsplurry]

why was it rejected i havent heard anything about this

[SMGLee]

Because FN most likely wheeled their broad sword and stopped the further purchase by SOCOM personnel to upgrade the M4 to the 416. but this did not stop AWG and some other groups from purchasing them individually.

[mohica]

Because FN most likely wheeled their broad sword and stopped the further purchase by SOCOM personnel to upgrade the M4 to the 416. but this did not stop AWG and some other groups from purchasing them individually.


From what I understand, for several reasons. One being the system is NOT the best of what would be offered. It is more complicated than say the Colt (which was great in the SCAR trials) or the Leitner-Wise system. The HK system still has gas rings!! Second, like it or not because it was HK. No one likes to deal with them. I think when ready, a US designed system will be used. Third, with FN probably going to produce the SCAR-L, there would be no need to buy the HK item, even if it was just uppers for retrofit. Again, a US designed system would most likely get the deal even if for uppers only.

As for FN, if the pistol trials ever get going again, I don't believe FN will get it but you would never know it talking to them. They must have told me 3 or 4 times at their booth that their pistol was gonna be the next US sidearm. I believe S&W is the best of the genre from what I saw at SHOT and smokes the FN, HK, Glock, XD, etc. Taurus prabably came in second place.

[SMGLee]

From what I understand, for several reasons. One being the system is NOT the best of what would be offered. It is more complicated than say the Colt (which was great in the SCAR trials) or the Leitner-Wise system. It still has gas rings!! Second, like it or not because it was HK. No one likes to deal with them. I think when ready, a US designed system will be used. Third, with FN probably going to produce the SCAR-L, there would be no need to buy the HK item, even if it was just uppers for retrofit. Again, a US designed system would most likely get the deal even if for uppers only.


It was the best at the time of the purchase. that is if we are talking on the same subject. I am referring to the recent blockade of the 416 into SOCOM inventroy by management. The 416 would have been a great stop gap until a SOCOM designated system comes on line--FN SCAR.

Gas ring? HK 416 does not have gas rings....I am not sure I follow.
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ntoa2006/large/NTOA-117.jpg
416 is a more complex system then Colt M4 necause you are comparing the gas piston system to the DI GAS system of the Colt, the M5 submitted was not that simple. Besides, the Colt 1020 is not ready for production yet. The LWRC has more parts compare to the 416, compare to the 416, LW is not as well developed. what other piston system has been more fully developed and battle tested as the 416? NONE.

Yes.. FN is producing the SCAR-L but not in full deployment yet and to supplement the current need for a ultra reliable SBR, some groups within SOCOM decided to purchase the 416 until something better comes around, but that decision was terminated after the first batch was delivered.

[mohica]

It was the best at the time of the purchase. that is if we are talking on the same subject. I am referring to the recent blockade of the 416 into SOCOM inventroy by management. The 416 would have been a great stop gap until a SOCOM designated system comes on line--FN SCAR.

Colt's original gas piston upper, the model 703 was determined not necessary after it's development in 1979. This sat on the shelf for years. The 1020 has some similarities judging from photos of the old system. The 1020 smoked through the SCAR trials. I don't believe HK entered their piston version. I think HK jumped on this piston thing because their sales have been taking a nose dive and wanted to get in on some US gov't business. G36 series has basically tanked. PDW system seems to be going nowhere. HK's entry for the pistol trials is a revamped USP. HK doesn't seem to have much going for it right now.


Gas ring? HK 416 does not have gas rings....I am not sure I follow.

The rings are on the piston in the gas block as I am told. I shot one but wasn't allowed to disassemble it. Same with example at SHOT.
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ntoa2006/large/NTOA-117.jpg

416 is a more complex system then Colt M4 necause you are comparing the gas piston system to the DI GAS system of the Colt, the M5 submitted was not that simple. Besides, the Colt 1020 is not ready for production yet. The LWRC has more parts compare to the 416, compare to the 416, LW is not as well developed. what other piston system has been more fully developed and battle tested as the 416? NONE.

Nope, I am comparing the HK piston system to the Colt system primarily. The 1020 is ready for production I was told but when is the issue. With the huge orders for M4's, Colt doesn't need to hang their hat on the 1020 - yet. The M5 was the one they were still looking into.

The LWRC has more parts? Not as well developed? I don't know. I think the LWRC system may end up being the best out there. Time will tell. I just don't buy into the HK mystique. I am not saying they can't put out a decent product, but they ain't all that.

I would venture to say the Colt system is more "developed" (if that is an accurate description) if based on nothing more than it's performance during the SCAR trials.


Yes.. FN is producing the SCAR-L but not in full deployment yet and to supplement the current need for a ultra reliable SBR, some groups within SOCOM decided to purchase the 416 until something better comes around, but that decision was terminated after the first batch was delivered.

Yeah, but I think if Colt ever gets it together, and they can fill all the orders for the M4, you might see some adoption of their piston system. Still don't count out LWRC.

[SMGLee]

Colt's original gas piston upper, the model 703 was determined not necessary after it's development in 1979. This sat on the shelf for years. The 1020 has some similarities judging from photos of the old system. The 1020 smoked through the SCAR trials. I don't believe HK entered their piston version. I think HK jumped on this piston thing because their sales have been taking a nose dive and wanted to get in on some US gov't business. G36 series has basically tanked. PDW system seems to be going nowhere. HK's entry for the pistol trials is a revamped USP. HK doesn't seem to have much going for it right now. [/img]
1020 was never in the SCAR trial, it was the earlier M5, it has a slightly different design then the currnet 1020. HK had a XM8R but it was not allowed since the XM8 was developed through Army funding.


[QUOTE=mohica;2272168]Nope, I am comparing the HK piston system to the Colt system primarily. The 1020 is ready for production I was told but when is the issue. With the huge orders for M4's, Colt doesn't need to hang their hat on the 1020 - yet. The M5 was the one they were still looking into.

The gas piston has gas rings but those are hardly a coincern for maintainace.

the 1020 are ready...maybe but not in production and no dates forth coming on this system. Colt is stalling, and part of the reason why HK can't get the 416 in country to civilian had probably a lot to do with the Colt lobbists. Banning the upper as a non-sproting firearm.. interesting.


The LWRC has more parts? Not as well developed? I don't know. I think the LWRC system may end up being the best out there. Time will tell. I just don't buy into the HK mystique. I am not saying they can't put out a decent product, but they ain't all that.

I am never a huge HK kool-aide drinker. I was once told by a HKPro poster to get lost because of I speak of my mind on line. I have drilled HK on the G36, the lackluster UMP and the XM8. but when it came to the 416, those guys got it right. I have shot the LWRC, I own one LWRC and I have shot it against the HK 416. due to some politics, I can't comment on the test but I can tell you the HK 416 was flewless and it ran all day long in full auto where the LWRC was good but it just did not feel like the better system. As far as civilian owners are concern, there is nothing currently on the piston market that can beat the LWRC. I have recommendate the LWRC to all my clients that wanted a piston upper.


I would venture to say the Colt system is more "developed" (if that is an accurate description) if based on nothing more than it's performance during the SCAR trials.
Not sure if teh Colt is more or less developed, I just know the Colt is not in production as of yet. I have not had a chance to put it on the range. From What Ken Elmore told me, the 1020 is an impressive system, and Ken Elmore carrys a lot of weight with me.

Then again.. i am known to talk out of my ass....:)

[mohica]

1020 was never in the SCAR trial, it was the earlier M5, it has a slightly different design then the currnet 1020. HK had a XM8R but it was not allowed since the XM8 was developed through Army funding.

The 1020 as we see it at the Colt booth, no, but it is generally the same system used in SCAR I was told by several of the reps.

I don't think anyone is thrilled with HK at the moment. They probably should have stayed with the tried and true weapons they had been building for years and just updated them with rail systems and such.

The M5 is the latter of the two I was told. The gas bleed off the left side of the gas block was an improvement to get away from gas bleed around and under the handguards. The next step was to add the FAL style plug on the gas block a la 1020 for ease of maintainence.



The gas piston has gas rings but those are hardly a coincern for maintainace.

That is a matter of opinion. I wouldn't want gas rings in a system where they aren't necessary i.e. Colt, LWRC, POF. Why take them off the bolt and put them on the piston?


the 1020 are ready...maybe but not in production and no dates forth coming on this system. Colt is stalling, and part of the reason why HK can't get the 416 in country to civilian had probably a lot to do with the Colt lobbists. Banning the upper as a non-sproting firearm.. interesting.

I don't think Colt is realeasing the 1020 because of the backlog of M4's they need to deliver. I don't believe they are willing to defer resources needed to manufacture the M4 to the 1020.

As for the lobbyists? I don' know.


I am never a huge HK kool-aide drinker. I was once told by a HKPro poster to get lost because of I speak of my mind on line. I have drilled HK on the G36, the lackluster UMP and the XM8. but when it came to the 416, those guys got it right. I have shot the LWRC, I own one LWRC and I have shot it against the HK 416. due to some politics, I can't comment on the test but I can tell you the HK 416 was flewless and it ran all day long in full auto where the LWRC was good but it just did not feel like the better system. As far as civilian owners are concern, there is nothing currently on the piston market that can beat the LWRC. I have recommendate the LWRC to all my clients that wanted a piston upper.

You know there are alot of people that worship at the alter of Orbendorf.

I have shot the 416 also and it was nice, but don't know if it is currently the best. I don't know that I would pay the price for it as all HK items are overpriced.

I have not yet shot the LWRC piston yet but I like the engineering. I like the cup and the metered gas bleed. I think it is well thought out with one key "ingredient" being the lower mass of the sytem versus any other system I have examined. The whole thing operates in 6/10" of travel. That translates to minimal effect on accuracy due to movement of the sytem.

Not too sure what "feels like the better system" means but unless I had them side by side to shoot I don't think I could make that determination. Apparently you have done so, so I respect your thoughts until I am afforded the opportunity to try them both together.



Not sure if teh Colt is more or less developed, I just know the Colt is not in production as of yet. I have not had a chance to put it on the range. From What Ken Elmore told me, the 1020 is an impressive system, and Ken Elmore carrys a lot of weight with me.

Then again.. i am known to talk out of my ass....:)

I hope the Colt system is good also. I really would like to see Colt get a hand up in this endeavour.

[mcsplurry]

mohica what do you mean no one likes to deal with hk ,

they are a brilliant firearms company

[mohica]

This isn't intended to be an HK bashing thread, but HK is arrogant. They think they are the end all in firearms development. Well, they are finding out that isn't the case. In my opinion the MP5 is really their claim to fame, and rightfully so. Every other system they made/make, someone does it better. Pray you never need parts.

Tell me, what has HK done in the last decade or more that stands out? Something that has a chance of being adopted? Brilliant? Where?

[mcsplurry]

What do you think is the best firearms company then?

do you view the fn scar as a better system


ps: i view the mp7 as a weapon that stands out

[Hydro]

ps: i view the mp7 as a weapon that stands out


In all honesty, the MP7 hasn't come far enough to warrant adulation. The cartridge is the only part of the system that's "new", and ever since the P90 introduced the "PDW" cartridge concept there seems to be conflicting reports on effectiveness of such ammunition on unarmoured targets. Most, if not all of these, concern the 5.7x28 P90 round though, but the MP7's round has a smaller projectile and a marginally longer case (2mm). They are still broadly similar rounds designed for a similar purpose though.


H&K make some fine weapons, but since the abandonment of the very reliable roller locking system, nothings really stood out from the crowd.


There is no "Best" firearms company, just about every one of them comes out with some real gems and some real lemons.

[mcsplurry]

and is the 416 a gem or a lemon
compared to other carbines like the c8sfw,g36k or the m4


what i mean is have hk made a significant improvement over those weapons

[Hydro]

I've not fired any of those weapons, I can't say. It's looking good though. Bear in mind H&K took lessons learnt from the L85 upgrade programme and used them on the M4 to create the 416. So will it be better than the M4? Probably, like the L85A2 was an improvement on the L85A1. Will it be better than other piston driven derivatives of the M16/M4 system? Don't know.


SMGLee seems to have good things to say about the 416, and he IS in a position to know.

[mcsplurry]

thanks hydro :)http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1675/sfwvy4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[dacanadianbomb]

I wonder if there is going to be a package with which one can update a normal MP5 to accept 4,6X31mm cartridges.

I mean I dont really have a clue about all this, but what can a MP7 do, that a MP5 couldnt do with the new caliber and a bit of body work.Minus the length thing because mag is in pistol grip and not infront of it.

Sorry for going off topic.
I am wondering, why do they thermold mags have a box like shape at the front of the mag, whilst the AUG/Magpul mags have a more round front.
Wouldnt the rounded front offer a nicer "slide" of the rounds towards chamber ?
as you can see I have no clue lol.

[mcsplurry]

sounds like a good idea

[mcsplurry]

sorry for double posting but i have heard that the 416 and the c8sfw are
some of the best carbines ,what i want to know is which one is better
in terms of ruggedness and accuracy :)

thx

[SMGLee]

The 1020 as we see it at the Colt booth, no, but it is generally the same system used in SCAR I was told by several of the reps.

There are changes to the system but you are right the 1020 is a very close relative of the Colt SCAR gun.


I don't think anyone is thrilled with HK at the moment. They probably should have stayed with the tried and true weapons they had been building for years and just updated them with rail systems and such.
HK need a new infusion of weapons, maybe a further developed system based on the roller lock to incorporate better egronomics and overall size.


The M5 is the latter of the two I was told. The gas bleed off the left side of the gas block was an improvement to get away from gas bleed around and under the handguards. The next step was to add the FAL style plug on the gas block a la 1020 for ease of maintainence.
The SCAR gun was initially called the M5. colt revived the name plate for this new design. I saw it at the Shotshow and I took some pictures, but no detail breakdown as offered since I could not locate Ken at the booth.

[QUOTE=mohica;2272698]That is a matter of opinion. I wouldn't want gas rings in a system where they aren't necessary i.e. Colt, LWRC, POF. Why take them off the bolt and put them on the piston?
The piston which is on my G36 is pretty simple to clean, just wipe it down after a good shooting.




You know there are alot of people that worship at the alter of Orbendorf.

I have shot the 416 also and it was nice, but don't know if it is currently the best. I don't know that I would pay the price for it as all HK items are overpriced.

I have not yet shot the LWRC piston yet but I like the engineering. I like the cup and the metered gas bleed. I think it is well thought out with one key "ingredient" being the lower mass of the sytem versus any other system I have examined. The whole thing operates in 6/10" of travel. That translates to minimal effect on accuracy due to movement of the sytem.

Not too sure what "feels like the better system" means but unless I had them side by side to shoot I don't think I could make that determination. Apparently you have done so, so I respect your thoughts until I am afforded the opportunity to try them both together.

HK made some great firearms, they apperared in many movies, and used by some of the most elite forces. but that did not give them the right to mistreat their customers, and ignor the market which they are famous for. What did HK ever made that was great...let's see... MP5.. that is the only gun i can really think of. The G11 is revolutionary but met an ending that it did not deserve.

As far as feels better, the 416 just shot smoothier and shoot better then the LMTbased LWRC I had. I am currently playing with recoil spring rate and also buffer weight to find a good match for the LWRC to further enhance its chartistics.

We will see if the 1020 make it to the market to give the piston some infusion. a side from that, the LWRC is the best choice out there for the Civilian and LE custoemrs.

[mcsplurry]

so what are the pros and cons of both the 416 and the g36

[dacanadianbomb]

Chief, your location is correct, you are lost. Use the search function. Noone here is your personal weapons tester.

[maple.leaf]

H&K make some fine weapons, but since the abandonment of the very reliable roller locking system, nothings really stood out from the crowd.

Hmmm, yes - I never did understand the rationale for the G36; or why they were so wrapped up in the G11. Both seem like technological cul-de-sacs to me.

I like the G36 - somewhat - but what does it really offer that other 5.56mm weapons don't? And why oh why did they abandon the HK33/G41 idea? Okay, the 33 didn't accept M16 STANAG magazines, and the G41 had that ugly, useless bolt-assist welded onto the side. But apart from that....

Instead, they abandoned a graceful weapons system that really worked (the 33 series) for basically trivial reasons and brought out something that looks like its just trying to be modern for the sale of looking modern - and that still doesn't accept NATO STANAG magazines. :cantbeli:

At least I can stick a STANAG magwell adaptor on my airsoft G36 and feed it with M16 mags no problem... Can they do the same with the real steel one?

[Hydro]

At least I can stick a STANAG magwell adaptor on my airsoft G36 and feed it with M16 mags no problem... Can they do the same with the real steel one?


They can, but it's not common, certainly not in the military world. On a global scale, the G36 hasn't really gained a lot of acceptance outside of the Police and Law Enforcement industry (Spain and Germany are the only ones that really adopted them on a national scale). It's making inroads to a few Eastern European and Baltic countries, and a few SOF's use them on a limited basis. The only STANAG adapted "G36's" I've seen are civilian owned SL8/SL8 conversions.

[SMGLee]

I wonder if there is going to be a package with which one can update a normal MP5 to accept 4,6X31mm cartridges.

I mean I dont really have a clue about all this, but what can a MP7 do, that a MP5 couldnt do with the new caliber and a bit of body work.Minus the length thing because mag is in pistol grip and not infront of it.

Sorry for going off topic.
I am wondering, why do they thermold mags have a box like shape at the front of the mag, whilst the AUG/Magpul mags have a more round front.
Wouldnt the rounded front offer a nicer "slide" of the rounds towards chamber ?
as you can see I have no clue lol.

Why?

4.6 is a PDW cartridge, it is not a really good man stopper, unlike a well developed 9mm HP. the only advantage of the 4.6 is its ability to penetrate hard armor.

the idea is the MP7 is so compact that it can be used like a handgun or equipe a down airman with it as a survivor gun. by adding the 4.6 to the MP5, you just basically increase the size without any added benefit.

[dacanadianbomb]

Good stuff, thanks for the answer.

[SMGLee]

and is the 416 a gem or a lemon
compared to other carbines like the c8sfw,g36k or the m4


what i mean is have hk made a significant improvement over those weapons



sorry for double posting but i have heard that the 416 and the c8sfw are
some of the best carbines ,what i want to know is which one is better
in terms of ruggedness and accuracy :)

thx

In your quest for answer... you need to know one thing. what are you base your questions on? what kind of task do you require of your equipment.

HK 416 is an improvement over the standard DI gas guns, because the piston driven weapon can exceed the normal operating perimeter of the DI gas gun.

C8 is a good weapon along side to its brother that is what you normally call the M4. there isn't a big difference in the C8 vs. the Colt M4 except the barrel. the C8 barrels are all cold hammer forged which is suppose to give great accuracy. Currently the FN SCAR utilize the hammer forged barrels and the L version are punching 1MOA all day long. the FN SCAR is a seriously accurate weapon.

Only comparison between the M4, C8 and the 416 is the operating system. if you are some one that run it short barrel with suppressor and shoot the gun in full auto like a SAW. yes.. the HK 416 will be much better choice then the standard M4 or C8. if you dislike giving your weapon the proper loving care, much like those third world buckleheads, you might want an AK. if you are just a normal shooting fool that expand no more then a few thousand rounds a week, the M4 is not a bad idea. it is lighter and it is easier to get parts down the supply chain.

So what is your ticket?

[Macs.]

Hmmm, yes - I never did understand the rationale for the G36; or why they were so wrapped up in the G11. Both seem like technological cul-de-sacs to me.

I like the G36 - somewhat - but what does it really offer that other 5.56mm weapons don't?

Simple - It was a weapon made for the german army, so we could use NATO standard .223 (5,56 x 45 mm) munition.

Other aspects were: Reasonable Price, easy use/maintance.


Instead, they abandoned a graceful weapons system that really worked

... and the G36 doesn't really work ? :roll:


At least I can stick a STANAG magwell adaptor on my airsoft G36 and feed it with M16 mags no problem...

Good news, good news.

[maple.leaf]

Simple - It was a weapon made for the german army, so we could use NATO standard .223 (5,56 x 45 mm) munition.

Other aspects were: Reasonable Price, easy use/maintance.


No **** Sherlock.

But if you re-read my post, you'll see that I was commenting on the technology of it and the discussion was about why they abandoned the roller-locking mechanism of the G3 and its derivatives.

And in case you hadn't noticed, the HK33 is also a 5,56mm NATO chambered rifle - which was also reasonably priced and easy to maintain.



... and the G36 doesn't really work ? :roll:


Did I say it doesn't work? NO.

Has this just turned into an intelligence-free zone? :bash:

[mcsplurry]

im just interested and i cant find any of this information anywere
thanks for the answer

[mohica]

Simple - It was a weapon made for the german army, so we could use NATO standard .223 (5,56 x 45 mm) munition.

Other aspects were: Reasonable Price, easy use/maintance.



... and the G36 doesn't really work ? :roll:



Good news, good news.

Not so fast my friend! The G36 was not done so the German Army could use 5.56x45mm ammunition. The HK 33 series already did that. The G36 was done to bring HK into the new century, a new weapon. I will give HK that, they will try and develop cutting edge stuff. Whether it is viable or not is another story. Obviously if you are gonna go through the trouble to design a new weapon, it would make sense to use the M16 mag. By the way, the bolt/carrier group in the G36 is basically an AR18 group, so not totally "new".

They have been using polymers longer than anyone I can think of.