View of US's global role 'worse'

[signatory]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6286755.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42480000/gif/_42480073_poll_gra2_203.gif


The view of the US's role in the world has deteriorated both internationally and domestically, a BBC poll suggests.

The World Service survey, conducted in 25 nations including the US, found that three in four respondents disapproved of how Washington has dealt with Iraq.

The majority of the 26,381 respondents also disapproved of the way five other foreign policy areas have been handled.

The poll, released ahead of President Bush's State of the Union speech, was conducted between November and January.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/americas_world_view_of_us/img/1.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/americas_world_view_of_us/img/2.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/americas_world_view_of_us/img/3.jpg


The number of those who said the US was a positive influence in the world fell in 18 nations polled in previous years.

In those countries, 29% of people said the US had a positive influence, down from 36% last year and 40% two years ago.

Across the 25 countries polled, 49% of respondents said the US played a mainly negative role in the world.

In Kenya, Nigeria, the Philippines and the US most of those polled said they thought the America had a positive role.

But among Americans, the number of those who viewed their country's role positively fell to 57% - six percentage points down from last year and 14 percentage points down from two years ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/americas_world_view_of_us/img/laun.jpg


Mid-East role

Respondents were also asked about the Bush administration's handling of six areas of foreign policy:

The war in Iraq: an average of 73% of respondents disapproved (57% in the US). Disapproval was strongest in Argentina and France, while people in Nigeria, Kenya and the Philippines were more likely to approve.

Detainees in Guantanamo: 67% disapproved (50% in the US). Backing for America on this issue was highest in Nigeria, where 49% approved.

Israeli-Hezbollah war: Washington's role met with approval from respondents in Nigeria and Philippines, but on average 65% disapproved across the 25 countries (50% in the US).

Iran's nuclear programme: again, support for US actions appeared strongest in Kenya (62%), Nigeria (53%) and the Philippines (52%). But, overall 60% of respondents disapproved (50% in the US).

Global warming: more than 80% of respondents in Argentina, France and Germany disapproved compared to 56% overall (54% in the US). But the White House had 50% or more support among those polled in Nigeria, Kenya, the Philippines and South Korea.

North Korea's nuclear programme: opposition to US policy was strongest among respondents in Argentina and Brazil. On average across the 25 countries 54% disapproved (43% in the US).

When asked about US military presence in the Middle East, an average of 68% of respondents across the 25 countries answered that it "provokes more conflict than it prevents".

In Nigeria, 49% of respondents said it was a "stabilising force", as did 41% in the Philippines, 40% in Kenya and 33% in the US.

The poll was conducted for the BBC World Service by GlobeScan and the Program on International Policy Attitudes (Pipa) at the University of Maryland. It has a margin of error ranging from +/-2.5% to +/-4%.

The questions were put to people in: Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Chile, China, Egypt, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Italy, Kenya, Lebanon, Mexico, Nigeria, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Russia, South Korea, Turkey, United Arab Emirates and the United States.

POLL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/23_01_07_us_poll.pdf

[sferrin]

Give 'em a few years with China or Russia in the driver's seat (so to speak) and they'll be whining about the good old days.

[signatory]

Give 'em a few years with China or Russia in the driver's seat (so to speak) and they'll be whining about the good old days.

With China or Russia in control, no one would be allowed to voice their opinion...

[Miles.]

We're not running a ****ing popularity contest, are we?

[BloodyTalon]

We're not running a ****ing popularity contest, are we?

x2

the last thing I want is a president who gives the opinion of a foreigner the same weight as an American.

[Miles.]

LOL

Foreigner.

That's the stupidest thing I've heard in about the last 2 hours.

[BloodyTalon]

LOL

Foreigner.

That's the stupidest thing I've heard in about the last 2 hours.
my bad.


To clarify (i.e. make it less redknecky), I believe a nation should put the interests and opinions of its own people before the opinions of citizens of another country. I don't care what the average Englishman thinks about how the US is run. I care about what the average American thinks about how the country is run.

[signatory]

my bad.


To clarify (i.e. make it less redknecky), I believe a nation should put the interests and opinions of its own people before the opinions of citizens of another country. I don't care what the average Englishman thinks about how the US is run. I care about what the average American thinks about how the country is run.

The opinion of Americans were also included in the survey, any comment on those numbers?

[LaoSexMachine]

Aint gonna be losing sleep over this tonight.

[BloodyTalon]

The opinion of Americans were also included in the survey, any comment on those numbers?
Again, the opinion of Americans on how the US is run, be it positive or negative, has more weight than the opinion of the French/British/Nigerians on how the US is run in my opinion.

[Kant]

Again, the opinion of Americans on how the US is run, be it positive or negative, has more weight than the opinion of the French/British/Nigerians on how the US is run in my opinion.

Yet U.S foriegn policy is exactly that.
How the U.S deals with the rest of the world. The people whom the policy effects have opinions, and they matter as well, as U.S foriegn policy effects them to a greater extent than it does Americans.

[mi35d]

I believe we heard the same crap back in the 80's.

Yawn!

[TheStorm]

Entirely unsurprising. Even if you only take our own interests into account, we've done a fine job of screwing ourselves.

[signatory]

Again, the opinion of Americans on how the US is run, be it positive or negative, has more weight than the opinion of the French/British/Nigerians on how the US is run in my opinion.

Afaik no one is forcing you to comment on the foreign numbers, the poll wasn't made for Americans only.

It will create debate in the UK, in France, in Russia and so on as to why THEIR countries feel this way.

You got the data for the Americans opinion too.

[Miles.]

I wonder why the Philippines and Nigeria love America.

Probably because it's the only two countries we don't interact with on a daily basis.

Cocksuckers. Hate me.

[jetsetter]

I wonder why the Philippines and Nigeria love America.

Probably because it's the only two countries we don't interact with on a daily basis.

Cocksuckers. Hate me.

Actually those are two nations in which the US military provided humanitarian assistance. Built roads, schools, food, lowered crime, etc. We have troops in both countries.

[Aztec Eagle 201st]

Give 'em a few years with China or Russia in the driver's seat (so to speak) and they'll be whining about the good old days.

A Mexican Citizen myself i would have to agree with you on this one.

I would better see the Americans at the helm then the Chinese or any other asian country.
American prosperity=Mexican prosperity.

Chinese prosperity= ?? we get sup and rice with our order.

Plus you guys are right this is NOT a popularity contest,if it was well you would be in much better shape then the French...really who likes the French??..LOL

P.S. Phillipinos have to love the U.S. half of there country serves in the U.S. Navy...juts kidding ,my Phillipino bros.


You see even the canucks agree http://images.google.com.mx/images?q=tbn:8I5uIRJX-3J0iM:http://www.isbe.state.il.us/profprep/images/arrow.jpg (http://images.google.com.mx/imgres?imgurl=http://www.isbe.state.il.us/profprep/images/arrow.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.isbe.state.il.us/profprep/&h=454&w=576&sz=8&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=8I5uIRJX-3J0iM:&tbnh=106&tbnw=134&prev=/images%3Fq%3Darrow%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D)

[Dakota435]

Give 'em a few years with China or Russia in the driver's seat (so to speak) and they'll be whining about the good old days.

Right on bro.

[RallyPointCebu]

its ok. time will provide for US to pick-up the trend. :D

[theholeinthedonut]

I love to quote Bismarck: "Vox Populi, Vox Rindvieh"
(Rindvieh=Bovine)

[annihilation]

Give 'em a few years with China or Russia in the driver's seat (so to speak) and they'll be whining about the good old days.

That or wait till we get a new president.... People will forget soon enough anyways. Hate us one day, love us the next.

[Rictor]

While it's all well and good to speculate about how things would be with China or Russia (or EU or India) at "the helm", may I ask: why the hell does anyone need to be "at the helm"? No one, no matter how benevolent or malevolent, is to be trusted with such a position in the world. Surely the goal should be to have no one, friend or foe, exert undue influence on the sovereign countries of the world. To have each nation chart its own course, as it sees best, and be neither gently lead nor brutally controlled by others.

[Olybrius]

Plus you guys are right this is NOT a popularity contest,if it was well you would be in much better shape then the French...really who likes the French??..LOL


i wonder ;)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0930/p01s04-woeu.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0930/csmimg/p5b.gif

[annihilation]

i wonder ;)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0930/p01s04-woeu.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0930/csmimg/p5b.gif

Its easy to be viewed better when you don't do anything in the international community.

[Atlantic Friend]

Its easy to be viewed better when you don't do anything in the international community.

But, but, I thought we were doing plenty of things, because we were the Backstabbing Enemy, you know, always opposing the US, etc ? ;)

Be a good sport and take the poll like a man - it's just a poll, after all.

[Sergei]

Give 'em a few years with China or Russia in the driver's seat (so to speak) and they'll be whining about the good old days.

The "good old days" is bombing civilians indiscriminately in a country of DoDs choice?
No wonder people call it quits.

[annihilation]

But, but, I thought we were doing plenty of things, because we were the Backstabbing Enemy, you know, always opposing the US, etc ? ;)

Be a good sport and take the poll like a man - it's just a poll, after all.

Hey I have no problems with the polls at all. Personally I hope this shapes our foreign policy so we take a more care free and less hands on approach to the worlds affairs. A little isolationism is not always so bad.

[apm]

Be a good sport and take the poll like a man - it's just a poll, after all.

this is absolutely my opinion. my intention is not to be offensive at some people here directly, but some comments sound more like a school´s break talk than like a serious forum, thus after the motto ' if we do not want to be friends anymore, then get lost! '. maybe it would be wiser to think about the reasons why this survey ended in such a way if even the people of countries which are tightly allied to the US like the british or the australians value the policy of the US as negative.

[SBL]

My sources indicate otherwise.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i228/Captainbadd/uspop.jpg

[GreySpawn]

your hand is shaking, snakebiteleader. feeling inferior?

[SBL]

your hand is shaking, snakebiteleader. feeling inferior?


Not so much as those who tend to lash-out bitterly. *ahem*

[Jobu]

These polls and $1 will buy you a nice, hot coffee from Dunkin' Donuts.

[sferrin]

The "good old days" is bombing civilians indiscriminately in a country of DoDs choice?
No wonder people call it quits.

In marked contrast to Eastern Europe during the days of the USSR?

[apm]

Not so much as those who tend to lash-out bitterly. *ahem*

lol, how ridiculous. if you do not want to occupy yourself with this topic in a more serious way, then just stop doing everything else. of course i have to allow an exception if you intend us to read your "diagramme" from the right to the left. p-)

[SBL]

lol, how ridiculous. if you do not want to occupy yourself with this topic in a more serious way, then just stop doing everything else. of course i have to allow an exception if you intend us to read your "diagramme" from the right to the left. p-)


What? You don't trust my source?

[apm]

In engrish, prease.

fool. happens quite often here, if you native english-speakers do not know how to continue a debate without losing your face you start making jokes about one´s grammar.

your-"diagramme"-post-is-only-funny-if-you-want-us-to-read-it-from-the-right-to-the-left-got it? woot

edit
:p to late, i already saw it

[SBL]

Hmm, personal attacks from the peanut gallery. Perhaps I was more right in my second post than you'd care to admit? If you can't understand or take a light-hearted joke, that's hardly my problem. You can always PM me with your slings if you'd prefer, rather than derail a perfectly good thread.

[apm]

i felt a right to react after you first posts because as i said that happens quite often here.
and if this is your point of view that the popularity of the US just increases all the time i have to tolerate this. my comment about your diagramme was maybe a kind of missundertanding, i thought that should be a joke. p-)

[Jobu]

I'd like to see a poll about how Americans feel towards foreigners.

[Switek]

I always knew that US had a bad PR personnel ;)

[shocker1]

They don't like us because every nation, tounge and race live here without burning down the house. I never even noticed this "problem" till I read it here. Conidering 99% of the local chamber members are posting record revenues, growth and customer base increases I could care less if our overseas visitors go somewhere else. It is hard to get a decent hotel room on short notice in the big vacation spots as it is.

Edit: We are arrogant warmongers too, that will keep em out.p-)

[mas-36]

I'd like to see a poll about how Americans feel towards foreigners.


Oh, they know all too well how "we" feel about them. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[Ordie]

It looks like United States needs a branding makeover.

Time to hire Lador Associates (branding experts)

Judging by the opinion poll, it seems that Sub-saharan Africa looks favoribly upon the US. Its not surprising since the US had little political and colonial interaction in Africa compared with Europe. Many South Africans still credit the US for speeding the end of Aparthied.

I'm not surprised by the Philippines. The largest ex-patriot Filipino population lives in the US. Many goods are sent directly to Filipino families by way of the "Balikbayan" boxes. (Lots of good feelings about the US). Compared with the current Filipino government and corruption, many are questioning whether independence was worth it.

I'm not surprised about South America. Too many empty promises, too much meddling. The last popular US president in Latin America was JFK. Many neighborhoods, streets and individuals are named after him. People always give him credit for building the Pan-American Highway.

I would have to agree that Americans and Mexicans make very good allies. The US can't afford to lose another friend in Mexico. Many Mexicans in the US have an overall positive image of the country and system. Many thrive in the transparency of business and government. The idea that one has the "freedom to fail" is very powerful in this community. Unfortunately this is underminded by the undocumented immigrant debate and nasty rehtoric.

[asch]

come on, guys, you still have Philippines backing your actions!
p-)

[Aztec Eagle 201st]

[quote=asch;2256445]come on, guys, you still have Philippines backing your actions!
p-)[/quote

Dont forget Nigeria!

The official language of Nigeria is English,theres no lenguage barrier, and Theres small minoritis of Americans,English Chinese,Japanase and las but not least Mexicans they live there, usually there Doctors or Engieners or there work for there countrys companys,i know that Mexico planing to open a large cement industry in that country CEMEX wich the second largest cement company in the world.Theres also a number of Cubans thatlive there as political refugess that got there after the Cuban Revolution.

[szr]

Don't hate us because we're beautiful.

[Ordie]

Nigeria

It depends which community the opinion is polled.

The Igbo and the Yoruba, Christians, have many kin living in the United States. Again lots of friends and familiy exchanges going on.

The Hausa on the other hand are Muslims and will do what the local Sultana ask them to do. They traditionally fill the ranks of the military.

The Igbo were very weary about European powers meddling during thier brief existance as an independant nation. American aid volunteers on the otherhand, risked their lives to save the Igbo during the Biafra War. Lots of good feelings about the USA.

[Sergei]

In marked contrast to Eastern Europe during the days of the USSR?

Ah, I see, so the world should always the remember the 40 year old events and don't mind the current homicidal maniacs in the White House who are a danger to the rest of the world. I see your point.

[wilhelm]

Who's next on the bombing list..?

[Aztec Eagle 201st]

Ah, I see, so the world should always the remember the 40 year old events and don't mind the current homicidal maniacs in the White House who are a danger to the rest of the world. I see your point.

Maniacs??

HOMICIDAL MANIACS! OOuch ! your in trouble now,my rusky comrade...lol

http://www.disordered.org/CDs/Maniacs.jpg

[wilhelm]

I think that the US should bomb Lesotho next. You never hear anything about them...which means they must be up to no good. Their silence is threatening..

[Sergei]

Maniacs??

HOMICIDAL MANIACS! OOuch ! your in trouble now,my rusky comrade...lol

http://www.disordered.org/CDs/Maniacs.jpg

Me? In trouble? Killing some 70 folks in Somalia and then some more folks in Afganistan, not mentioning killing indiscriminately countless people in Iraq. And this is called the "good old days"? I don't even want to imagine what the "bad days" will look like?
Maybe after Iranian adventure kicks in?

PS. I am not your rusky comrade, my aztec friend. I am from Ukraine.

[GreySpawn]

it's futile talking about geography with americans. i still remember that little flick from cnn "who should we bomb next".. http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1599/tpc1903200311163416vj.gif

[apm]

roflgood one. fits to the rule that average americans do only know countries which they bombed once upon a time.

[Createdeemcee]

I am a proud American and will always be till I die. I was in a discussion with some folks yesterday and pointed out to them how badly we need to change the world opinion of us. Like most republicans they dont care. They fail to understand life was better over all for us before this BS war began. Now we are a laughing stock. We used to be what others countries would dream of being. Bush tainted us with his idiocracy.

[annihilation]

I am a proud American and will always be till I die. I was in a discussion with some folks yesterday and pointed out to them how badly we need to change the world opinion of us. Like most republicans they dont care. They fail to understand life was better over all for us before this BS war began. Now we are a laughing stock. We used to be what others countries would dream of being. Bush tainted us with his idiocracy.

Pretty much, he has set us back alot. But hey maybe we can finally take a step back in interfering with the world. A little isolation isn't so bad.

[sferrin]

Ah, I see, so the world should always the remember the 40 year old events and don't mind the current homicidal maniacs in the White House who are a danger to the rest of the world. I see your point.

you sound like that b!tchy girl who whined about her dad buying her the wrong color car. What was being said was things could be a hell of a lot worse (and most likely would be) were China or Russia the leading power.

[GreySpawn]

What was being said was things could be a hell of a lot worse (and most likely would be) were China or Russia the leading power.
and that is a real bvllshlt. i doubt that russia or china would wage a war against whole world.

[Miles.]

and that is a real bvllshlt. i doubt that russia or china would wage a war against whole world.

Right. They have no history of that...



;)

[Atlantic Friend]

Hey I have no problems with the polls at all. Personally I hope this shapes our foreign policy so we take a more care free and less hands on approach to the worlds affairs. A little isolationism is not always so bad.

I'm not so sure. Last time it didn't work all that well, when all's said and done about it, and that's why every administration felt it couldn't fence itself from the rest of the world. It does sound like a 19th century policy, when vast oceans provided all the security you might want, and when nation-states played by very rational rules. As for now, I'm not sure it is even an option, to tell you the truth, even for arch-neutral countries.

[Atlantic Friend]

and that is a real bvllshlt. i doubt that russia or china would wage a war against whole world.

Probably not against the rest of the world at the same time. But China plays its cards nonetheless - they want what everybody want : wealth, influence, raw power. Military options are always on the table.

[annihilation]

I'm not so sure. Last time it didn't work all that well, when all's said and done about it, and that's why every administration felt it couldn't fence itself from the rest of the world. It does sound like a 19th century policy, when vast oceans provided all the security you might want, and when nation-states played by very rational rules. As for now, I'm not sure it is even an option, to tell you the truth, even for arch-neutral countries.

You can still have a minimalist policy. One of less interferance in other nations unless it has to deal with economic cooperation and trade agreements and less with taking the lead some global agenda that is in the now.

[GreySpawn]

military options were being on the table since birth of the firtst human.
russian or chinese aggression in foreign politics never riched the levels of usa. so assuming that situation might be worse if ussr or china holded global superiority is simple and clear bull.

[Atlantic Friend]

You can still have a minimalist policy. One of less interferance in other nations unless it has to deal with economic cooperation and trade agreements and less with taking the lead some global agenda that is in the now.

Maybe it is possible - I'm just wondering if the global economy we're living in really favors a more hands-off approach.

[Atlantic Friend]

military options were being on the table since birth of the firtst human.
russian or chinese aggression in foreign politics never riched the levels of usa. so assuming that situation might be worse if ussr or china holded global superiority is simple and clear bull.

Is it ? I'd rather live in a world where democratic nations have the upper hand militarily than in one where China has the finger of the global trigger.

[Miles.]

military options were being on the table since birth of the firtst human.
russian or chinese aggression in foreign politics never riched the levels of usa. so assuming that situation might be worse if ussr or china holded global superiority is simple and clear bull.

That's complete lunacy. ^^

The hammer and sickle is very appropriate for you. The symbol of wankers everywhere.

[SBL]

GreySpawn is making the critical error in thinking there is something fundamentally different about the humans governing one corner of the globe than another.
While having Russia or China in the driver's seat would certainly be be "different" for a while, it wouldn't be anything "new". Nations would still jockey for position and influence, and after a time, things would be sorted-out either by war or other means. Low-and-behold, you'd still have one, or a handful of powerful nations having their thumbs in everyone else's pies.

[GreySpawn]

GreySpawn is making the critical error in thinking there is something fundamentally different about the humans governing one corner of the globe than another.

no, i do not asume the difference to be that deep, rather i look back at history and draw my conclusion from it.



While having Russia or China in the driver's seat would certainly be be "different" for a while, it wouldn't be anything "new". Nations would still jockey for position and influence, and after a time, things would be sorted-out either by war or other means. Low-and-behold, you'd still have one, or a handful of powerful nations having their thumbs in everyone else's pies.
yes, but it would've been different, that what it is now - one country blindly and aggresively trying to bend the world to her will. back there, ussr was not as aggressive as usa, but pulled it's strings thus counterbalancing usa to some extend. nor ussr nor china possed the economic or military strenght the usa had, so their influence would've been much lower and they would've been more open to disscussions and mutual agreements. it's the raw power(rather the lack of), that really differentiate possible ussr or china's influence over the world in this scenario.



I'd rather live in a world where democratic nations have the upper hand militarily than in one where China has the finger of the global trigger.
you mean the world where ones with power can bomb whoever they want. great. hope you have a good shelter nearby.

[annihilation]

Maybe it is possible - I'm just wondering if the global economy we're living in really favors a more hands-off approach.

I think it would manage just fine. Economics are a good driving force.

[annihilation]

you mean the world where ones with power can bomb whoever they want. great. hope you have a good shelter nearby.

Any nation has the right to bomb any other nation as they choose. There is legality to it, never was. But they do have to suffer the consequences of their actions.

[SBL]

yes, but it would've been different, that what it is now - one country blindly and aggresively trying to bend the world to her will. back there, ussr was not as aggressive as usa, but pulled it's strings thus counterbalancing usa to some extend. nor ussr nor china possed the economic or military strenght the usa had, so their influence would've been much lower and they would've been more open to disscussions and mutual agreements. it's the raw power(rather the lack of), that really differentiate possible ussr or china's influence over the world in this scenario.




So it's a matter of the Russians and Chinese being "cooler-heads" so to speak? Give me a break. Every country is after the same things- wealth and power. The USSR being, as you put it, "more open to disscussions and mutual agreements" has less to do with the rationality and good-will of the Russians than it does with the fact that the USA decidedly had the upper-hand.

[Lau]

it's futile talking about geography with americans. i still remember that little flick from cnn "who should we bomb next".. http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1599/tpc1903200311163416vj.gif

ROFLMAo.... That map must have been made by Bush... rofl

Seriously, how can anybody be surprised that nobody likes the US. They have failed in every war since WW2. Wich is really sad, 'cause they really like to interfer in everything all over the world. Sometimes the intetions are good, alltho' its more often to gain more influence, boost trade, kill commies, or support some evil dictator with lots of oil.

I may sound harsh, but be honest, when was the last time the US went to war for a noble cause? WW2...

[shocker1]

ROFLMAo.... That map must have been made by Bush... rofl

Seriously, how can anybody be surprised that nobody likes the US. They have failed in every war since WW2. Wich is really sad, 'cause they really like to interfer in everything all over the world. Sometimes the intetions are good, alltho' its more often to gain more influence, boost trade, kill commies, or support some evil dictator with lots of oil.

I may sound harsh, but be honest, when was the last time the US went to war for a noble cause? WW2...
You know I get so tired of the same old Bush lied america sux bs that I am on my second pot of coffee. There are those here who post opinions of a wide spectrum however they have some kind of logic behind their argument. So spare me the, your screwed because you have Bush and fight stupid war with phantom enemy. This same old line is done like a steak, suggest what you think the solutions are. That is a good place to start debate.

[apm]

ROFLMAo.... That map must have been made by Bush... rofl

Seriously, how can anybody be surprised that nobody likes the US. They have failed in every war since WW2. Wich is really sad, 'cause they really like to interfer in everything all over the world. Sometimes the intetions are good, alltho' its more often to gain more influence, boost trade, kill commies, or support some evil dictator with lots of oil.

I may sound harsh, but be honest, when was the last time the US went to war for a noble cause? WW2...

that is not the problem. i want to emphasize that we depend on the US leading role in all aspects of world community life, especially their political weight, but also their power in the economic branch as well as they need our economy as a trade partner and our political support. if they would not need it, they could have started their last wars without any coalition. in my humble opinion war is not the stuff to debate about.

their general attitude towards other nations is the point. the fact that Americans do not take care of the interests of others anymore, a thing which i personally find quite sad because we need the alliance with them, a fact which should be known inside the US, so we would hardly oppose if the things weren´t quite wrong.
i know, now it is possible to say "hey we do take care of others" and list the names of countries which still do support the US. but in former times the leaders of the US were quite interested in having good relations with everyone and tried to convince countries from whom they were criticised. this attribute was always the base of the US power and brought many good things for the world, like important alliances or treatys.

i do not like to judge about other countries politicians due to the fact that i cannot really have an opinion in this point if i do not live in this country. that is why i don´t want to say how good the today president is as well as i don´t want to say anything about his predecessors. but under clinton, the US were a more modest and friendlier nation towards others.

maybe it´s clearer now what i meant in my last posts, hope you can understand my very basical language. let me know if this is not the case p-)

[Lau]

You know I get so tired of the same old Bush lied america sux bs that I am on my second pot of coffee. There are those here who post opinions of a wide spectrum however they have some kind of logic behind their argument. So spare me the, your screwed because you have Bush and fight stupid war with phantom enemy. This same old line is done like a steak, suggest what you think the solutions are. That is a good place to start debate.

I can fully understand why you get tired. But since the subject is "view of US's global role 'worse', I find it very relevant to sum up why so many people is beginning to view the US as the "bad guy"
Its ok to make mistakes here and there, fight wars for the wrong reasons, support the wrong leader for the wrong reasons over and over again. The US has a long historie of that. You know it, and I know it.
But for some reason, a few members here fail to see it. All they see is all the great things the US does every time they go to war.
But at some point historie will catch up, and people start to mistrust the US. And who can blame them?

The old clorious WW2 picture of The United States of America as the protecter of freedom and equality, is disappearing.

[shocker1]

So here we go, you guys need to consider that most Americans do not base their political leanings on what you think is America. I am sorry to be so blunt as to say we really do not care at this point. All this political pandering you are getting here are in this forum of debate by no means shows how we are "sorry" and want to be loved again.

However there are masses of Americans that know what has been pin prickin us since the 1970's. This Islamic Terrorist threat has been boiling for a long time. Blame that on 911 cause we are gonna kill or submit those who wish to murder with a bomb belt or fly planes into buildings ect. They just had to go and force our hand.

Iraq is a 17 year old conflict in which there are many aspects of why we did what we did. This has been hashed out so I will make it short. We are there now, the radical Islamic terrorist is there now how we got there is a debate for after we help the decent people in Iraq. Who want a better future and mistake or not Saddam the butcher is gone and the chaos is our basket of eggs.

However when it comes to long memories when this is all over we will remember who had the balls to help us and who ran for the high minded hills. So in short think what you will, I will still go bass fishin this weekend like nothing is wrong.

[SBL]

that is not the problem. i want to emphasize that we depend on the US leading role in all aspects of world community life, especially their political weight, but also their power in the economic branch as well as they need our economy as a trade partner and our political support. if they would not need it, they could have started their last wars without any coalition. in my humble opinion war is not the stuff to debate about.

their general attitude towards other nations is the point. the fact that Americans do not take care of the interests of others anymore, a thing which i personally find quite sad because we need the alliance with them, a fact which should be known inside the US, so we would hardly oppose if the things weren´t quite wrong.
i know, now it is possible to say "hey we do take care of others" and list the names of countries which still do support the US. but in former times the leaders of the US were quite interested in having good relations with everyone and tried to convince countries from whom they were criticised. this attribute was always the base of the US power and brought many good things for the world, like important alliances or treatys.

i do not like to judge about other countries politicians due to the fact that i cannot really have an opinion in this point if i do not live in this country. that is why i don´t want to say how good the today president is as well as i don´t want to say anything about his predecessors. but under clinton, the US were a more modest and friendlier nation towards others.

maybe it´s clearer now what i meant in my last posts, hope you can understand my very basical language. let me know if this is not the case p-)

Good points, But I would have to take issue with the "under Clinton the US was a more modest and friendlier nation" remark. I think it's more a case of the US seeming to be more modest, etc. in the minds of foreigners due to a notable lack of controversy.

[ViktorNavorski]

Sit in on any trade talks and see how the world really think of us, the language is "sophisticated," but it get condescending and nasty real fast. For example, under Clinton, the Japanese really pushed us to talk to the PRC in regard to copyrights infringement. That we did, sure, the Japanese love us for it, but while we irritated the PRC on the issue, whatever shares U.S. companies lost with China, there was the Japanese right behind them, coming in and taking over those lost markets. So, I can stand not being love rather than a back to be stab. As "Scoop" Jackson had said, "I'm not a hawk or a dove. I just don't want my country to be a pigeon."

[Murray B]

All this begs the question, how can anyone who loves democracy hate the United States?

Indifferent, sure, but hatred, for the only country that has regularly promoted democracy.

These America haters really scare me because of what we don't see. What is their agenda anyway?

[Kant]

Americans, don't make yourselves out to be matyrs.
That poll is probably 10 people from a focus group.

I'm talking from an Australian perspective, but we aren't jealous of your democracy, your freedoms or multi-culturalism.
Because we in Australia have it as well.

Not only that, but we have been your closest ally in the world time and time again.
Don't tar all foriegners wih the same brush.

[Aztec Eagle 201st]

WoW!! Are you guys still talking about this subject!!

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"—Matthew 19:19.

I could NOT love democracy, freedom or be a Christian if i would hate the U.S. or its people, who in there common sense be so arragant that can judge a country of 300 million people.

The only thing i can tell the Americans is dont give these opinion any importance, its seem to me that Canadians dont hate the States since they have family and ties to the U.S. same goes for Mexico i could not hate americans my sister is an american citizen by birth,i have 1 cousing served in the Navy veteran of the gulf war,and i have another little cousing in the Army another cousing served in the LAPD and died in service 9 yrs ago,and uncles and a hole bunch of family in the States.

And i have to agree with KANT ,Don't tar all foriegners wih the same brush.

So if your neighboors and allies think in general that your ok. Well who cares about the rest.

Thats my 2 cents.

Huge Statue of Abraham Lincoln in my City Tijuana,Mexico i usually drive next to it wen i go to work.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/73095755_4ea9f70ee3.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/63/189105023_e31e83cdd8.jpg?v=0http://www.flickr.com/images/spaceball.gif







http://www.flickr.com/images/spaceball.gif

[shocker1]

Americans, don't make yourselves out to be matyrs.
That poll is probably 10 people from a focus group.

I'm talking from an Australian perspective, but we aren't jealous of your democracy, your freedoms or multi-culturalism.
Because we in Australia have it as well.

Not only that, but we have been your closest ally in the world time and time again.
Don't tar all foriegners wih the same brush.
How could we be mad at you Aussies? I mean every Aussie I ever met drank with me even though America has piss brew and that constant damn grin makes me laugh till my sides hurt. Then when a drawl talkin Southerner like me talks with an Aussie it is like a barrel of monkeys. Heck we are both outsiders to the crown, no way no Aussie hatin here. Carry on....

[Kant]

How could we be mad at you Aussies? I mean every Aussie I ever met drank with me even though America has piss brew and that constant damn grin makes me laugh till my sides hurt. Then when a drawl talkin Southerner like me talks with an Aussie it is like a barrel of monkeys. Heck we are both outsiders to the crown, no way no Aussie hatin here. Carry on....

Sorry.
My bad.
I'm Hypersensitive.

[Aztec Eagle 201st]

How could we be mad at you Aussies? I mean every Aussie I ever met drank with me even though America has piss brew and that constant damn grin makes me laugh till my sides hurt. Then when a drawl talkin Southerner like me talks with an Aussie it is like a barrel of monkeys. Heck we are both outsiders to the crown, no way no Aussie hatin here. Carry on....


America has piss brew ...That´s kindda true is it? :roll:

Victoria Beer from down under its pretty damm good,have you ever had one??

[shocker1]

America has piss brew ...That´s kindda true is it? :roll:

Victoria Beer from down under its pretty damm good,have you ever had one??
Oh that mass produced yellow water is piss brew. I have been around rednecks long enough to have my share of Bud. I do not drink much but the local Rhythm and Brews has some of the best house brew around. They imported the microbrewery from somewhere in Europe, their lager is my favorite, have not had Victoria beer.

We love Mexico too dispite what the news would have you think of conservative folks. The problems on the border will never get in the way of the family relationship we have. I hope we can get past the paranoia and enjoy our unique diversity of culture here in North America. Carry on....

[martyrad]

philippines is a former US colony so no surprise....

[sferrin]

and that is a real bvllshlt. i doubt that russia or china would wage a war against whole world.

Last time I checked Iraq and Afghanistan did not constitue "the whole world" :roll:

[gsm]

Give 'em a few years with China or Russia in the driver's seat (so to speak) and they'll be whining about the good old days.
bloody oath!

[Miles.]

Aztec, no one here thinks Mexico is an enemy.*

Not because we think you are inferior, but because we know you're some good family people and you're just like me. I live in Texas, my friend. No hatred here for Mexicans or Hispanics. Trust me on this.



*No one with half a brain.

[GreySpawn]

Last time I checked Iraq and Afghanistan did not constitue "the whole world" :roll:
man, you've got some serious history and memory holes..

[Miles.]

man, you've got some serious history and memory holes..

hahahaha

So tell me, comrade, who got poisoned last year?

[GreySpawn]

d*mn, i forgot - brezhnev?

[Atlantic Friend]

you mean the world where ones with power can bomb whoever they want. great. hope you have a good shelter nearby.

No I mean the world where incompetent leaders bombing whoever they want can actually be impeached, voted out of office, forced to resign, and by and large have to answer to the citizens and democratic institutions.

Which is remarkably NOT like China or Russia, I'm afraid, when all is said and done.

[Sergei]

you sound like that b!tchy girl who whined about her dad buying her the wrong color car. What was being said was things could be a hell of a lot worse (and most likely would be) were China or Russia the leading power.

Ah, I see you are some kind of Nostradamus prophet, right?
How do you know what would have happened?
Because the bitchy girl of yours told you so? rofl

[Sergei]

Is it ? I'd rather live in a world where democratic nations have the upper hand militarily than in one where China has the finger of the global trigger.

I hope you never ever appear to be on the receiving end of the "democratic" (what a misused word) nations, as did somalians, or iraqis or serbs for that matter.

[Sergei]

No I mean the world where incompetent leaders bombing whoever they want can actually be impeached, voted out of office, forced to resign, and by and large have to answer to the citizens and democratic institutions.



Oh, yeah? Give me one example of that happening?

[Sergei]

man, you've got some serious history and memory holes..

x2
I didn't know there are so many PNACers lurking on this forum.

[Miles.]

Oh, yeah? Give me one example of that happening?

Finland, East Germany, Czech Republic, Poland, along with the rest of Eastern Europe, Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, etc.

All ****holes, thanks to Mother Russia. Some have recovered nicely. Finland, CZ, Poland and Germany, as examples.

Get your head checked.

[GreySpawn]

Finland, East Germany, Czech Republic, Poland, along with the rest of Eastern Europe, Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, etc.
All ****holes, thanks to Mother Russia. Some have recovered nicely. Finland, CZ, Poland and Germany, as examples.
Get your head checked.
man, have you ever visited those countries? i myself been to almost all countries you mentioned from mid 80s. no shltholes there. so unless you have firsthand experience - i'll take you words as emty bragging..

some thought - you based you view on a movie "eurotrip" or what?

[Miles.]

man, have you ever visited those countries? i myself been to almost all countries you mentioned from mid 80s. no shltholes there. so unless you have firsthand experience - i'll take you words as emty bragging..

some thought - you based you view on a movie "eurotrip" or what?

So they weren't under Communist domination?

Damn.

[Aztec Eagle 201st]

So they weren't under Communist domination?

Damn.

Democratic contries vs Communist and former communist contries?:roll:

Well viewing this from a difrent perspective,i cant tell you guys that my opinon is that DEMOCRACY is the way to go,My country use to be called a Third world country only a few years ago but after democracy mature in Mexico and we have an open economy we moved fast like other nations in the same course,now whe are part of the so called newly industrialized nations,we are the 13th largest economy in the world and its getting better from why i can tell just last month i bought my first new car,a VW Pointer not luxury but its a start! theres still much to do because in my country there still 42% of our people in poverty and those are the ones bailing out going to the states,i hope we can get to them fast, but i also see some communist countrys fastly growing i wonder how real is there muscle??
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b6/NewlyIndustrializedCountries.png/400px-NewlyIndustrializedCountries.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NewlyIndustrializedCountries.png)

The category of Newly industrialized countries (NlCs) is a social/economic classification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorization) status applied to several countries around the world by political scientists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scientist) and economists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economist).
NICs are countries whose economies have not yet reached first world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_world) status but have, in a macroeconomic sense, outpaced their newly industrialized world (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Newly_industrialized_world&action=edit) counterparts. Another characterization of NICs is that of nations undergoing rapid economic growth (usually export-oriented). Incipient or ongoing industrialization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrialization) is an important indicator of a NIC. In many NICs, social upheaval can occur as primarily rural, agricultural populations migrate to the cities, where the growth of manufacturing concerns and factories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factories) can draw many thousands of laborers.
NICs usually share some other common features, including:

Increased social freedoms and civil rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights).
A switch from agricultural to industrial economies, especially in the manufacturing sector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_sector).
An increasingly "open" economy, allowing for free trade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade) with its enemies, such as that obtained by leaving a trade bloc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_bloc).However, political freedom is not always associated with economic freedom. In nations such as the People's Republic of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China), Internet censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Mainland_China), the suppression of religion, and other abuses of civil rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights) are common. See Human Rights in the People's Republic of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China). The Chinese government has responded to these accusations by arguing that China's increasing standard of living has provided a utilitarian social benefit that outweighs the detrimental effect of individual violations. Similarly, countries such as Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia) have human rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights) issues that have earned them the ire of organizations such as Amnesty International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International).
NICs often receive support from non-governmental organizations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-governmental_organization) such as the WTO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Organization) and other internal support bodies. However, as they are beneficiaries of globalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization), many fair trade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade) supporters and other protectionists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism) have balked at importing the products of NICs, especially from the People's Republic of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China)


Current examples of NICs in today global markets are:

Africa:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Flag_of_South_Africa.svg/20px-Flag_of_South_Africa.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_South_Africa.svg) South Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa)

North America:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Flag_of_Mexico.svg/20px-Flag_of_Mexico.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Mexico.svg) Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico) (OECD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD) member, 1994) G8 Participant

South America:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Flag_of_Argentina.svg/20px-Flag_of_Argentina.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Argentina.svg) Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina), http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Brazil.svg/20px-Flag_of_Brazil.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Brazil.svg) Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) G8 Participant

Asia:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Flag_of_China.svg/20px-Flag_of_China.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_China.svg) China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China), http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Int-GCC-flag.gif/20px-Int-GCC-flag.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Int-GCC-flag.gif) The GCC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperation_Council_for_the_Arab_States_of_the_Gulf) states, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Flag_of_India.svg/20px-Flag_of_India.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_India.svg) India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India), http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Flag_of_Malaysia.svg/20px-Flag_of_Malaysia.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Malaysia.svg) Malaysia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia), http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Flag_of_the_Philippines.svg/20px-Flag_of_the_Philippines.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_Philippines.svg) Philippines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines) and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Flag_of_Thailand.svg/20px-Flag_of_Thailand.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Thailand.svg) Thailand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand)

Europe:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Flag_of_Turkey.svg/20px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Turkey.svg) Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) (EU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) official candidate)






China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China) and India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India) are special cases: the immense population of these two nations (over two billion combined as of November (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November) 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006)) means that per capita income (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GDP_per_capita) will remain low even if either economy surpasses that of the United States of America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America). However, keeping PPP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_Power_Parity) in mind, the Chinese and Indian populations will enjoy significantly reduced costs of living (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost-of-living_index), as basic commodities tend to be less expensive in both nations.

Additionally the group composed of Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa meet annually with the G8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G8) countries to discuss financial topics, due to their economic importance in today's global market

[Flamming_Python]

my bad.


To clarify (i.e. make it less redknecky), I believe a nation should put the interests and opinions of its own people before the opinions of citizens of another country. I don't care what the average Englishman thinks about how the US is run. I care about what the average American thinks about how the country is run.

Well of course if America kept it's interests in America, than I would sympathise. But that's not how powerful countries work, and when you have a whole planet turning against you, it's time to re-think a few things.

[Jobu]

Well of course if America kept it's interests in America, than I would sympathise. But that's not how powerful countries work, and when you have a whole planet turning against you, it's time to re-think a few things.

Are you all taking up arms against us?

No? I doubt we're doing so poorly then.

It's my opinion that the United States needs only to do what is in the best interests of the United States. All of this talk about global leadership and our image abroad is nonsense. We do what's best for us, you do what's best for you. When we can work together for mutual benefit, fine. When we can't, we do it our way.

Finding consensus among the international community is not a lofty goal. It's not an achievement to be proud of unless that which is being agreed upon is favorable to our country. I don't want a weak government like the Clinton admin which signs horrible treaties for America simply to pander to Europeans and others for the sake of being liked. That's what Kyoto was, a horrible deal for America. It's always been a dog eat dog world and it always will be so when you give up your own best interests you will be taken advantage of.

In short:

US interests first.
Allies second.
Others third.

[Weasel]

Are you all taking up arms against us?

No? I doubt we're doing so poorly then.

It's my opinion that the United States needs only to do what is in the best interests of the United States. All of this talk about global leadership and our image abroad is nonsense. We do what's best for us, you do what's best for you. When we can work together for mutual benefit, fine. When we can't, we do it our way.

Finding consensus among the international community is not a lofty goal. It's not an achievement to be proud of unless that which is being agreed upon is favorable to our country. I don't want a weak government like the Clinton admin which signs horrible treaties for America simply to pander to Europeans and others for the sake of being liked. That's what Kyoto was, a horrible deal for America. It's always been a dog eat dog world and it always will be so when you give up your own best interests you will be taken advantage of.

In short:

US interests first.
Allies second.
Others third.

How does it fit to any christian value?

[apm]

How does it fit to any christian value?

i guess this was supposed to be sarcastic. it is not connected to any christian value but logical aspects. every country does this. but prefering the own interests does not mean to dammage the interests of others. and unfortunately the US do this if they think an ongoing conflict in whatever branch falls under their jurisdiction.

[SBL]

i guess this was supposed to be sarcastic. it is not connected to any christian value but logical aspects. every country does this. but prefering the own interests does not mean to dammage the interests of others. and unfortunately the US do this if they think an ongoing conflict in whatever branch falls under their jurisdiction.

So goes the old saying "you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs". Regardless of what the US does, it's going to inadvertantly smash someone elses' toes. It's impossible to keep everyone happy in the pursuit of your own interests. That's the cost of being the 500 lb. gorilla.

[sferrin]

So goes the old saying "you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs". Regardless of what the US does, it's going to inadvertantly smash someone elses' toes. It's impossible to keep everyone happy in the pursuit of your own interests. That's the cost of being the 500 lb. gorilla.

There's also the thing about sh!ttiest leaders are the ones who try to please all the people all the time.

[apm]

"you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs".

you can either get your eggs on friendly terms or just steal it.

@sferrin: that statement clearly indicates your "americanish" attitude then. because this is how the world should work. and just if all other methods are not enough to reach one´s goal and the one you have to deal with is bitching around you can take yourself what you want.

[sferrin]

you can either get your eggs on friendly terms or just steal it.

@sferrin: that statement clearly indicates your "americanish" attitude then. because this is how the world should work.

And Manna should rain from Heaven, and there should be a pot of gold at both ends of every rainbow. Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way.

[IronFinn]

So they weren't under Communist domination?

Damn.

Miles Miles, now you have done it. Just wait for the finns to jump on you :). Better find a deep hole to hide.

ps. Finland was NEVER dominated by communist or USSR.

[Doublethinker]

Miles Miles, now you have done it. Just wait for the finns to jump on you :). Better find a deep hole to hide.

ps. Finland was NEVER dominated by communist or USSR.

You had your chance with Kuusinen and you blew it! p-)

[Lau]

hahahaha

So tell me, comrade, who got poisoned last year?

Your' point being?

[Miles.]

Miles Miles, now you have done it. Just wait for the finns to jump on you :). Better find a deep hole to hide.

ps. Finland was NEVER dominated by communist or USSR.

Yall did get invaded.

Maybe ****hole wasn't the best choice of words, but come on, Russia and China aren't any more benevolent than the US.

[shocker1]

you can either get your eggs on friendly terms or just steal it.

@sferrin: that statement clearly indicates your "americanish" attitude then. because this is how the world should work. and just if all other methods are not enough to reach one´s goal and the one you have to deal with is bitching around you can take yourself what you want.
rofl"americanish" You did not even have the decency to use Capitols. I like that name, I may even write a song about the Americanish life. Good deal, thanks.

[SBL]

you can either get your eggs on friendly terms or just steal it.



They're not always on sale. And sometimes you just really gotta have an omellette.

[IronFinn]

Yall did get invaded.

Maybe ****hole wasn't the best choice of words, but come on, Russia and China aren't any more benevolent than the US.

Now Miles, since no one has yet step forward to educate you then I will.

Here is a site you can check to get the correct info:
http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/finland/summary.html

"Conclusions

Note that Finland didn't surrender and wasn't occupied (the sole country on the losing side that was not occupied by foreign troops). The front line at the time of the cease-fire was well in front of the current border.

As a result Finland saved its independence and could continue its development under a democratic government. "

Quoted from that page.

As for the other issue you mentioned, Russia or China haven´t had their change yet to be the dominant superpower so no one knows how it would turn out ;).

However, this is all pointless since when we will develope our wunderwaffen all will have to bow to the mighty Finland p-) .

[IronFinn]

You had your chance with Kuusinen and you blew it! p-)

hah hah, Kuusela made the vise choise and ran from the country after civil war :fork: p-) .

[Auzaider]

All this begs the question, how can anyone who loves democracy hate the United States?

Indifferent, sure, but hatred, for the only country that has regularly promoted democracy.

These America haters really scare me because of what we don't see. What is their agenda anyway?

I don't think that "hate" is the word, you don't need to hate someone in order to have a different point of view.
As for the US being an example for Democracy... US Governments supported Dictatorships on South America, they trained South American armies to torture and kill their own people, they even supported the overthrow of people elected Governments just for the benefit of US Companies... how can US expect to be trusted or approved in South America?

[Lau]

Yall did get invaded.

Maybe ****hole wasn't the best choice of words, but come on, Russia and China aren't any more benevolent than the US.

LOL "YALL"....

Guess you were wrong... Calling places you have never been to or apperently, dont know anything about "****holes" is not a good idea. As you can see, it made you look rather stupid... 'A´IGHT? rofl

But your right about one thing, Russia and China is no more benevolent than US.. But is the US more benevolent than Russia and China?

[SBL]

LOL "YALL"....

Guess you were wrong... Calling places you have never been to or apperently, dont know anything about "****holes" is not a good idea. As you can see, it made you look rather stupid... 'A´IGHT? rofl



^A bit like the pot calling the kettle black, imo. Please note the use colloquialisms as a point of derision.

[Jobu]

I don't think that "hate" is the word, you don't need to hate someone in order to have a different point of view.
As for the US being an example for Democracy... US Governments supported Dictatorships on South America, they trained South American armies to torture and kill their own people, they even supported the overthrow of people elected Governments just for the benefit of US Companies... how can US expect to be trusted or approved in South America?

Once those dictators were no longer useful in the fight against communism, we got rid of them and pushed for democratic leadership in those countries. It was a case of choosing the lesser of two evils during the Cold War.

We also sided with the Soviets against the Nazis. Does that mean we preferred Soviet communism over democracy in Russia? Don't be so naive. One size does not fit all.

[Miles.]

LOL "YALL"....

Guess you were wrong... Calling places you have never been to or apperently, dont know anything about "****holes" is not a good idea. As you can see, it made you look rather stupid... 'A´IGHT? rofl

But your right about one thing, Russia and China is no more benevolent than US.. But is the US more benevolent than Russia and China?

Take a look at countries that Communist Russia has subverted, attacked, harassed, or whatever.

There is plenty of historical evidence to support my assertion that Communism AND Russia have turned some nice places into economic and social toilets.

I used ****hole to describe what happened to the people and economies of these countries that Russia and China have dominated. It wasn't the right choice.

Using the wrong word doesn't make me stupid, saying "yall" does, right?

[Sergei]

Take a look at countries that Communist Russia has subverted, attacked, harassed, or whatever.

There is plenty of historical evidence to support my assertion that Communism AND Russia have turned some nice places into economic and social toilets.

I used ****hole to describe what happened to the people and economies of these countries that Russia and China have dominated. It wasn't the right choice.

Using the wrong word doesn't make me stupid, saying "yall" does, right?

Why don't you talk about "toilets" the US created? That would give you more credibility.
Philipines? Child prostitution and pedophilia?
And the fact that the US military personnel can draw weapon, kill a local and walk away with it (as the latest development in Kyrgyztan) tells me there are not that many willing participants to host your "toilets" any more.

[Lau]

Take a look at countries that Communist Russia has subverted, attacked, harassed, or whatever.

There is plenty of historical evidence to support my assertion that Communism AND Russia have turned some nice places into economic and social toilets.

I used ****hole to describe what happened to the people and economies of these countries that Russia and China have dominated. It wasn't the right choice.

Using the wrong word doesn't make me stupid, saying "yall" does, right?

Sorry for making fun of you writing "yall"... It was wrong of me and I apologize.


^A bit like the pot calling the kettle black, imo. Please note the use colloquialisms as a point of derision.

^^

[Miles.]

Why don't you talk about "toilets" the US created? That would give you more credibility.
Philipines? Child prostitution and pedophilia?
And the fact that the US military personnel can draw weapon, kill a local and walk away with it (as the latest development in Kyrgyztan) tells me there are not that many willing participants to host your "toilets" any more.

Wow.

Running out of ideas?? Now, you are blaming the US for Filipino child prostitution? Who's to blame when a child becomes a prostitute in the Ukraine?

This is getting ridiculous.


Sorry for making fun of you writing "yall"... It was wrong of me and I apologize.

No worries.

[GreySpawn]

Wow.
Running out of ideas?? Now, you are blaming the US for Filipino child prostitution? Who's to blame when a child becomes a prostitute in the Ukraine?

if we speak about ukraine - when ussr still was life was waaaaay more better.. and there were no child prostition whatsoever. but under the banner of democracy we got it all... talk about western high values..



This is getting ridiculous.

indeed.

[Miles.]

if we speak about ukraine - when ussr still was life was waaaaay more better.. and there were no child prostition whatsoever. but under the banner of democracy we got it all... talk about western high values..

The famine that the Communists caused, that killed nearly 1 million Ukranians in the early 1920s...

100,000 families deported from the Ukraine to Siberia and elsewhere in the mid-1930s...

Life was grand.

[Macs.]

Communists... Its like talking to a wall. (Oh the irony.)

Don't waste your time on them.


United States is the biggest terrorist organisation in the world and actually is the source of all the world's problems.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2220834#post2220834

[pascalywood]

[quote=Macs.;2265561]Communists... Its like talking to a wall. (Oh the irony.)

rofl rofl good one

[Miles.]

A strong Dumbarse of the Week contender...

Anybody want to make some bets? I got five on it.

That was a good find, Macsler.

[Hunterhr]

if we speak about ukraine - when ussr still was life was waaaaay more better.. and there were no child prostition whatsoever. but under the banner of democracy we got it all... talk about western high values..


indeed.

Democracy. Now with built in child prostitution rings.

[Kilgor]

if we speak about ukraine - when ussr still was life was waaaaay more better.. and there were no child prostition whatsoever. but under the banner of democracy we got it all... talk about western high values..


indeed.

Its called economic collapse. How was life in the USSR in the famines in the early 20's ?

GS, your obviously a few beers short of a sixpack.

[GreySpawn]

The famine that the Communists caused, that killed nearly 1 million Ukranians in the early 1920s...

do you want me start about american indians, slavery?



Life was grand.
man, if you had lived in ukraine i'd took you words. but it seems that you know very little about it.

it's really entertaining to see, how deep and vast knowledge about ussr western auditory has, and it seems that all western knowledge about russia is engulfing only period 1920-1950 with bits about peter the great or ivan the terrible. no wonder that comments are so stupid and arrogant and main argument is syberia or stalin. retarded way of thinking..

[LaoSexMachine]

Nothing like looking back at history with rose colored glasses.

[GreySpawn]

Nothing like looking back at history with rose colored glasses.
yep, true. but not in my case. and if you want to teach me history of my own country - you're on the wrong track..

[LaoSexMachine]

yep, true. but not in my case. and if you want to teach me history of my own country - you're on the wrong track..

How old are you? If you want to bad mouth my country then you are on the wrong track yourself. Easy to nitpick the bad. Do you live in the Ukraine?

[szr]

...It's not even like you're just taking the piss because you don't like America; you actually seem to believe the crap you write. If you realised how goofy you sound, you'd step back from the keyboard and just walk away. But you don't, so I look forward to more off-the-wall responses.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[GreySpawn]

How old are you? If you want to bad mouth my country then you are on the wrong track yourself. Easy to nitpick the bad. Do you live in the Ukraine?
man, i'm old enough to have a doughter which goes to highschool. and yes i'm old enough to compare life in ussr with "life" today. small fact - in ussr my grandparents were able to by cars, a house with only grandfather working. and man - in ussr i've never seen a poor to dig through garbage.. so if you or anyone else happened to compare life in late ussr with life in modern ukraine - learn at least some history besides words like communism bad, stalin and syberia

and yes - i leave almost in the center of europe, i guess it's a nice hint.

[LaoSexMachine]

man, i'm old enough to have a doughter which goes to highschool. and yes i'm old enough to compare life in ussr with "life" today. small fact - in ussr my grandparents were able to by cars, a house with only grandfather working. and man - in ussr i've never seen a poor to dig through garbage.. so if you or anyone else happened to compare life in late ussr with life in modern ukraine - learn at least some history besides words like communism bad, stalin and syberia

and yes - i leave almost in the center of europe, i guess it's a nice hint.

Laos is communist and life is so great that everyone wants to leave. The only people I see that are able to buy things in Laos are high in the politburo. While the rest of the comrades have to walk or pile on a moped.

[Macs.]

man, i'm old enough to have a doughter which goes to highschool. and yes i'm old enough to compare life in ussr with "life" today. small fact - in ussr my grandparents were able to by cars, a house with only grandfather working. and man - in ussr i've never seen a poor to dig through garbage.. so if you or anyone else happened to compare life in late ussr with life in modern ukraine - learn at least some history besides words like communism bad, stalin and syberia

and yes - i leave almost in the center of europe, i guess it's a nice hint.

Well, duh, would you think for a second why the UDSSR ceased to exist ? :cantbeli:

Because anything worked out so great ? The whole system was built to collapse.

[shocker1]

Well, duh, would you think for a second why the UDSSR ceased to exist ? :cantbeli:

Because anything worked out so great ? The whole system was built to colapse.
My Grandfather who fought in Korea once told me when I was little, that Communist countries only allow John Wayne TP.rofl Lighten up Spawn we all have dirty laundry.

[GreySpawn]

It's not even like you're just taking the piss because you don't like America; you actually seem to believe the crap you write. If you realised how goofy you sound, you'd step back from the keyboard and just walk away. But you don't, so I look forward to more off-the-wall responses.

ease up man. i really do not like america, mainly for it's goverment's deeds and foreigh politics with media bullsh*t. and i see it's the same other way around. well and about 1/3 of americans i've met and spoke to in person were not as nice persons as i expected them to be from my past experiences with western europe residents(mainly italians and austrians).. you know - that feeling of insincerity, with those glued plastic smiles and blank faces when you talk to them... but other bunch, mainly old people were indeed nice and open..

macs - it was not that simple, really.

ezekiel - d*mn, what laos has to do with ukraine?

shocker - yes i agree.. and what is "TP"?

[Kilgor]

ease up man. i really do not like america, mainly for it's goverment's deeds and foreigh politics with media bullsh*t.

And I guess the soviet unions deeds and state controlled media were alot more moral than america's :roll:

[shocker1]

well and about 1/3 of americans i've met and spoke to in person were not as nice persons as i expected them to be .
Every former USSR person I ever met was funny as hell and fun to be around. Lots of jokes, cool accent and great my country is better than yours arguments that are in good fun. But I have not met you so there must be negative people in former USSR too just like in USA.


i totally agree - United States is the biggest terrorist organisation in the world and actually is the source of all the world's problems. if they less stick their noses in foreign affairs - the world will be much cooler and safer.
Nice......:|

[GreySpawn]

And I guess the soviet unions deeds and state controlled media were alot more moral than america's :roll:

don't go there, kilgor, you'll be blown to pieces.. soviet union was not so moral and right, but compared to usa in the heat of a cold war it was way better.. at least it did not killed so many foreighn people in pursuit of world domination..

shoker, yes we have here really many open haters of usa or russia for that matter. but they are mostly young bunch - about 16-20, which knowledge of history is limited to official channels or myths, and they really do not need any data wich could weaken their beliefs in what's right and what's wrong. but fromer ussr residents, though nostalgic as they are really understanded flaws of the russian economics, simply because education in former soviet union was really far better then what we have now, with language grammar and history changing every year at the whim of current dominating political party. i always divided people and goverment wich leads them, guess it's a heritage of ussr system, so really - one does not must take it to personal what i wrote against us official course.. simply becouse the gap between ordinary people and those in power is too great..

[Miles.]

don't go there, kilgor, you'll be blown to pieces.. soviet union was not so moral and right, but compared to usa in the heat of a cold war it was way better.. at least it did not killed so many foreighn people in pursuit in world domination..

Pure gold...pure gold.

[SBL]

ease up man. i really do not like america, mainly for it's goverment's deeds and foreigh politics with media bullsh*t. and i see it's the same other way around. well and about 1/3 of americans i've met and spoke to in person were not as nice persons as i expected them to be from my past experiences with western europe residents(mainly italians and austrians).. you know - that feeling of insincerity, with those glued plastic smiles and blank faces when you talk to them... but other bunch, mainly old people were indeed nice and open..



Sounds like a personal problem to me.

[shocker1]

shocker - yes i agree.. and what is "TP"?
TP is toilet paper, John Wayne is some rough shiat. It tends to chap your arse, hence the joke.

[GreySpawn]

Sounds like a personal problem to me.
same to you, same to you..

[LaoSexMachine]

ezekiel - d*mn, what laos has to do with ukraine?




- learn at least some history besides words like communism bad, stalin and syberia




You mention communism and how great it was for your family. Laos is communist so there is the relevancy.

[szr]

soviet union was not so moral and right, but compared to usa in the heat of a cold war it was way better.. at least it did not killed so many foreighn people in pursuit in world domination..
I'll be you buddy and make an argument for your statement rather than against it:



The Soviets respected foreigners far more than the Americans did. What about those Hungarians in 1956, you ask? Well they weren't foreigners. You see, when the USSR consumed people and territory in its lawful and rightful expansion, those people and that land became Soviet people on Soviet land. So those "Hungarians", as you ignorant westerners mistakenly call them, by that time weren't Hungarians, but were in fact Soviets.

[shocker1]

shoker, yes we have here really many open haters of usa or russia for that matter. but they are mostly young bunch - about 16-20, which knowledge of history is limited to official channels or myths, and they really do not need any data wich could weaken their beliefs in what's right and what's wrong. but fromer ussr residents, though nostalgic as they are really understanded flaws of the russian economics, simply because education in former soviet union was really far better then what we have now, with language grammar and history changing every year at the whim of current dominating political party. i always divided people and goverment wich leads them, guess it's a heritage of ussr system, so really - one does not must take it to personal what i wrote against us official course.. simply becouse the gap between ordinary people and those in power is too great..
I can understand your logic from the other side of the fence. All the dirty little blows we inflicted on each other during the Cold War. These actions had negative impacts on people who had nothing to do with it except for nuclear annihilation.

However you should tone down your anti-US tone because we do not seperate goverment as you described here. Due to constant electons and our society we are responsible for our goverments actions. Though I am not proud of many of those actions, I as you do not appreciate mean spirited derogatory statements about my country, people or goverments. Be critical of policies and what ever you like but do it in a repectful manner and you will receive the same. Otherwise your just another flamer on this board who's days are numbered.

[GreySpawn]

The Soviets respected foreigners far more than the Americans. What about those Hungarians in 1956, you ask? Well they weren't foreigners. You see, when the USSR consumed people and territory in its expansion, those people and that land became Soviet. So those "Hungarians" as you ignorant westerners mistakenly call them, by that time weren't Hungarians, but in fact Soviets.


ok. in hungary there were about over 2000 dead and you forgot to mention us involvement. at the same time usa supported south vietnam wich then erupted to what and with how many casualties?

[LaoSexMachine]

ok. in hungary there were about over 2000 dead and you forgot to mention us involvement. at the same time usa supported south vietnam wich then erupted to what and with how many casualties?

USSR supported N. Vietnam and Pathet Lao in Laos. So what's your point?

[GreySpawn]

USSR supported N. Vietnam and Pathet Lao in Laos. So what's your point?
how many soviet troops were in n.vietnam, laos? how many soviet soldiers/advisors were killed? answers do exist, you can find them easily.

[szr]

ok. in hungary there were about over 2000 dead. at the same time usa supported south vietnam wich then erupted to what and with how many casualties?Russia had no involvement in Vietnam? Right. And the US had no involvment in Afghanistan... :roll:

Face it: we, us, the USA and the USSR, me and you--collectively screwed the world in the ass everywhere we ran into each other, for the better part of 50 years. You'd expand outwards and make incursions somewhere, and we'd rush to plug the gap and hold the line. And wherever that line was, people and countries usually suffered.

I think, however, an objective observer can determine which side of the line was the better side to be on and which side wasn't, by following the movement of people and ideas between the two sides. By far, more people fled the Soviet side, westward. And, by far, more western ideas flowed eastward than Soviet ideas, the converse.

Belgium and Norway aren't trying to join the Warsaw Pact or the CIS, but NATO and the EU are expanding.

[LaoSexMachine]

how many soviet troops were in n.vietnam, laos? how many soviet soldiers/advisors were killed? answers do exist, you can find them easily.

Support without getting your hands dirty doesn't give you a free pass. It's all the same if it's your troops doing it or the money and equipment that you provide. Like I said what's your point?

[szr]

Support without getting your hands dirty doesn't give you a free pass. It's all the same if it's your troops doing it or the money and equipment that you provide. Like I said what's your point?
Yep. Take a look at all the conflic areas in the world today, where people have slaughtered, and continue to slaughter each other without reprieve. The tools with which they do it have something overwhelmingly in common: their origin. Eastern and Soviet Bloc weapons are the ubiquitous implements of third world conflicts across the globe. This is one area where I'll concede that eastern arms thoroughly outgun anything from the west.

[GreySpawn]

Face it: we, us, the USA and the USSR, me and you--colectively screwed the world in the ass everywhere we ran into each other, for 50 years. You'd expand outwards and make incursions somewhere, and we'd rush to plug the gap and hold the line. And wherever that line was, people and countries usually suffered.

i said the same, and before, and in several threads. but there is a difference - you can look at the map i posted in that flaming thread about abm's - military presence around the globe, and direct involvement in military conflicts. usa is in the clear lead. and ussr was more soft and weak in this matter simply because it did not had possessed necessary power and did not have the necessary time and means to aquire such, while us do and did all to gain as much advantage as it could. and that was the reason for all those intrusions and killing. ww2 really crippled ussr badly. only in mid 60s country finally overcome all consequences and with such drastic measures as deportations and labor camps.. and is still paying for the land-lease(you can look farhter into the matter - interesting usa/ussr relations there).. looking back i really do not see any other possible ways of such quick rebuilding of a ravaged country in such a short time in the face of a possible new war.



I think, however, an objective observer can determine which side of the line was the better side to be on and which side wasn't, by following the movement of people and ideas between the two sides. By far, more people fled the Soviet side to come to the west, and by far, more western ideas flowed eastward than Soviet ideas the converse.

yes, true. i have no objections to that. but if we look more deeply in the matter, it's not only soviet system is to blame - the mass campaigh of alienation and demonizing of soviet union and communism in general really played big part of it. you see the traces even now, after all years since soviet union, propaganda clishes still live. and now more people leaving former ussr then ever..



Belgium and Norway aren't trying to join the Warsaw Pact or the CIS, but NATO and the EU are expanding.
those were never gived any propositions to join wu(simply because in 1949 they already joined nato, wu was formed in 1955), which was crumbling aftet start of 60s. because soviet grip begins to loosen.. the main mistake of soviet goverment was to pump funds and equipment into western countries - germany, chechslovakia, etc, while all those resources were really needed inside. if you look how people lived in those "occupied" western europe countries you'd be surprized.. after all the big artist, poet, and generally outstanding person vladimir vysotskiy after his return from voyage to europe said "but it's we who won the war"..

[Hunterhr]

Personally I find it fascinating whenever someone shows up who's so mired in some broken down system of belief that they can't tell which way is up.

[Kilgor]

In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. And what was terrifiying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable—what then?

[GreySpawn]

In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality, was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense. And what was terrifiying was not that they would kill you for thinking otherwise, but that they might be right. For, after all, how do we know that two and two make four? Or that the force of gravity works? Or that the past is unchangeable? If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable—what then?
http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/6953/1165558436293lw6.jpg

[Hunterhr]

In case you haven't noticed, that's pretty much been the universal reaction to your posts.

[bthest86]

Nigeria loves us because we fall for their stupid scams.

[GreySpawn]

In case you haven't noticed, that's pretty much been the universal reaction to your posts.

i invite you to see with your own eyes what was i talking about. brave enough to face the democracy the ukrainian way?

[SBL]

i invite you to see with your own eyes what was i talking about. brave enough to face the democracy the ukrainian way?

I'll bite. What is the Ukranian way?

I don't see your making any definative point, other than you really really don't like America.

[GreySpawn]

I'll bite. What is the Ukranian way?
I don't see your making any definative point, other than you really really don't like America.

several points about democracy west is so concearned with:
- nearly total destruction of social support system.
- beurocracy and corruption on the levels never before seen
- the gap between rich and poor never been so wide
- crime levels rise every year
- populations growth halted - we are simply diyng out. families simply cannot support more than a one child in the family.

and many small things like safely walking at night(never was an issue in ussr), garbage cleaning, building repairs, door locks, street lights, even theft of hatch caps. man, really when we compare life in ussr and today - things will be in favor of ussr.. and i do not talked about ideology, morality and education..

so western influence on the ukraine is at least as destructive as an early ussr. and while under ussr country rebuilds itself, i see no positive movements under "democratic" and "independent" rule.. man, mobile phones, internet and ****ography magazines at every corner cannot substitute normal and happy life.

[Kilgor]

i suggest you read orwell's 1984 gs. It is a work of such Brilliance not because of the genius of eric blair, but how it reflected to truthfully on the whole Stalinist/soviet system.

[GreySpawn]

i suggest you read orwell's 1984 gs. It is a work of such Brilliance not because of the genius of eric blair, but how it reflected to truthfully on the whole Stalinist/soviet system.

man, who do you think you're speaking to? but nevertheless i read the book and even watched the film.. and it's really do not have any exact similarities with what was happening in ussr. well it is an exagerrattion of things, which really might come to live, but they didn't. it is a general picture of totalitarian system with several aspects that can be found in every political system - democratic, tyranic or else.. and slogan "war is peace" - any similarities? no? it is really strange, that you trying to teach me about my country's history. and as i already said before - ussr is not only stalin, if you lack any knowledge besides several common words, do not even try to argue with someone who knows situation from the inside...

[SBL]

several points about democracy west is so concearned with:
- nearly total destruction of social support system.
- beurocracy and corruption on the levels never before seen
- the gap between rich and poor never been so wide
- crime levels rise every year
- populations growth halted - we are simply diyng out. families simply cannot support more than a one child in the family.

and many small things like safely walking at night(never was an issue in ussr), garbage cleaning, building repairs, door locks, street lights, even theft of hatch caps. man, really when we compare life in ussr and today - things will be in favor of ussr.. and i do not talked about ideology, morality and education..

so western influence on the ukraine is at least as destructive as an early ussr. and while under ussr country rebuilds itself, i see no positive movements under "democratic" and "independent" rule.. man, mobile phones, internet and ****ography magazines at every corner cannot substitute normal and happy life.



While certainly these problems are not uniquely to Ukrainian (I presume that's where you live?), You can't only blame the west. From what I understand, these are problems that stem from Ukraine being in a state of transition. Ukraine is labeled as being a "hybrid regime" or a "psuedo-democracy", meaning there is a great deal of authoritarianism still in place. Thus, political reform and development of a private sector which could fill the gaps left by an insufficient government system is restricted/stagnated. But this is largely a Ukranian issue to be solved by the Ukranians, blaming the west and the US in particular sounds suspiciously like scapegoating to me.

[Hunterhr]

i invite you to see with your own eyes what was i talking about. brave enough to face the democracy the ukrainian way?

Love the nationalistic posturing. It just adds to what's been said. You talk and talk and talk, but without actually saying anything. It's almost a skill.

Your nostalgia for a system that was flawed essentially from it's realization in the real world, to eventually collapsing under its own weight is nothing short of astounding.


i see no positive movements under "democratic" and "independent" rule.. man, mobile phones, internet and ****ography magazines at every corner cannot substitute normal and happy life.

Yep, I can just see all those people jumping the Berlin wall to escape a normal and happy life.

[GreySpawn]

Love the nationalistic posturing. It just adds to what's been said.
than i take it, you don't have anything useful to say?

[Hunterhr]

than i take it, you don't have anything useful to say?

Are you man enough to settle this the Pennsylvanian way? :)

[GreySpawn]

Are you man enough to settle this the Pennsylvanian way? :)

so i take it that you chikened? or you have guts to come here and see for yourself?

snakebite - i'll answer a bit later..

[shocker1]

You guys need to cut the electron boxing match and discuss the issue at hand. Grey Spawn lighten the hell up, I mean you are here defending Soviet system in a " View of US Global Role Worse" thread. I 'm not going to tell you how things are or were in your abode because I really do not know. Do you have any idea what "real" America is like? Judging from your comments I think not.

[Miles.]

It's probably part of his comedy act.

[CG51]

It should be mandatory when you sign up here to at least verify where you live so you know who the hell you are talking to. Most of the defenders of mother russia live right here in the states. I just don't get it.

[Miles.]

than i take it, you don't have anything useful to say?

How is saying "the United States is a terrorist organization" useful?

[shocker1]

It should be mandatory when you sign up here to at least verify where you live so you know who the hell you are talking to. Most of the defenders of mother russia live right here in the states. I just don't get it.


hmm, every time russia demonstrate it's grasp for influence media starts bragging about rising soviet union, comunism, dictatorship and so on. guess russian bears scares west quite alot.

usa took part in more than 160 conflicts in late half of XX century, from china in 1945 till now in somali.
and from what i've read usa killed more people in those wars than any other country. only france and britain comes to mind when trying to compare.


At the same time, however, they must be made to understand we will never compromise our principles and standards. We will never give away our freedom. We will never abandon our belief in God. And we will never stop searching for a genuine peace."
He is no Communist like I have seen in the movies.p-)

[Sergei]

While certainly these problems are not uniquely to Ukrainian (I presume that's where you live?), You can't only blame the west. From what I understand, these are problems that stem from Ukraine being in a state of transition. Ukraine is labeled as being a "hybrid regime" or a "psuedo-democracy", meaning there is a great deal of authoritarianism still in place. Thus, political reform and development of a private sector which could fill the gaps left by an insufficient government system is restricted/stagnated. But this is largely a Ukranian issue to be solved by the Ukranians, blaming the west and the US in particular sounds suspiciously like scapegoating to me.

Tell me about it :) Why do we have US puppet USchenko in charge then if it was solely a ukrainian issue?

[Sergei]

Take a look at countries that Communist Russia has subverted, attacked, harassed, or whatever.

There is plenty of historical evidence to support my assertion that Communism AND Russia have turned some nice places into economic and social toilets.

I used ****hole to describe what happened to the people and economies of these countries that Russia and China have dominated. It wasn't the right choice.

Using the wrong word doesn't make me stupid, saying "yall" does, right?

US is certainly in the lead. We are talking about 30 major invasions and some 50 small in the last 50 years.

Panama, Granada, Somalia, Iraq, Columbia, Nicaragua, we are not talking about Iraq, Afganistan or Viet Nam. Shall I go on?

And get out of that box of yours, stop thinking SU for one second. Russia today is the second country in net immigration to US. More than 2 million people each year settle in Russia either legally or illegally. If that was such a bad and evil place, why would people go there, huh?

[Sergei]

I'll bite. What is the Ukranian way?

I don't see your making any definative point, other than you really really don't like America.

You want to know what is the ukrainian way?

Who is your next candidate for president? I will hook him up with a ukrainian wife and she will lead the US policy most favorable for Ukraine. ;) How does that sound?

Oh, and once USchenko is gone from his failed presidency, you can have him, he will probably immigrate to US to read some stupid tripe at the university lectures, just like Gorbachev.

[bthest86]

US is certainly in the lead. We are talking about 30 major invasions and some 50 small in the last 50 years.

Panama, Granada, Somalia, Iraq, Columbia, Nicaragua, we are not talking about Iraq, Afganistan or Viet Nam. Shall I go on?

Yes. Please list the 30 "major US invasions" and the 50 "smaller ones" since 1957 you speak of.:roll:

[SBL]

Tell me about it :) Why do we have US puppet USchenko in charge then if it was solely a ukrainian issue?

Because you voted him into office. I recall a surge in his popularity after the poisoning, correct?

[GreySpawn]

so, the big man hunterhr backed up, and unfortunately i do not earn enough money to afford trip to usa. and if i want one i'd have to work for 6-10 month without eating food, water and paying bills.. that's another part of democracy you guys are so concearned with..


How is saying "the United States is a terrorist organization" useful?
why it must be "usefull"? i don't get it. it's a statement, with wich if you cannot agree with - proove otherwise. or at least try, without pointing to others..


While certainly these problems are not uniquely to Ukrainian (I presume that's where you live?), You can't only blame the west. From what I understand, these are problems that stem from Ukraine being in a state of transition.

that state of transition you speak of is turning into state of degradation in past 5-7 years.. i'm not only blaming the west, as you presume, but it's mainly the west(particularry usa, and major players in eu) fault not to support adequatly, exept for empty talks about building democracy, free market and draining resources, and giving money wich are constantly being plundered by high-ups and now a burden to pay back.. and not to forget all those tryings to break ukraine from russian influence.. it's hard to explain in detail because i know general english alittle and lack the knowledge of special ecomical and political terms..



Ukraine is labeled as being a "hybrid regime" or a "psuedo-democracy", meaning there is a great deal of authoritarianism still in place. Thus, political reform and development of a private sector which could fill the gaps left by an insufficient government system is restricted/stagnated. But this is largely a Ukranian issue to be solved by the Ukranians, blaming the west and the US in particular sounds suspiciously like scapegoating to me.
you really do not know anything about our internal affairs.. when kuchma was in power, everything settled down, people found their places in life and began building a life, or at least they're trying to.. kuchma's rule was not a democratic one, but country was relatively quiet and there were little clashes between political parties and such. even organized crime with blatant killings had started to fade. it can be safely said that country found it's way.. but kuchma and his successor yanukovich were not desired by west becouse of their movs between eu/nato/russia, so wesr openly supported man, who promised integrate ukraine in nato/eu as quickly as possible. uschenko even had the arrogance to say, that he do it during the first year of his rule. but with uschenko and his western support we received almost break of country into two parts. with him in power we had several major crisises, to name petroleum and sugar.. the relations with russia is worse then ever after ussr break up with stupid accusations in almost all problems country has. we have a steep rise of different nationalistic organizations several of them being extreme, crime again on the rise with about open wars between different gropus.. d*mn, i can go on and on.. so if i look at western influence - it was always bad for the country..


you are here defending Soviet system in a " View of US Global Role Worse" thread.

that's because instead of showing otherwise people start pointing fingers. and demostrating to about zero knowledge about what they are speaking about. so what do you expect? even in this tread you see the diffenece in modus operandi of western people - instead of looking at themselfes they started attacking others..



Do you have any idea what "real" America is like? Judging from your comments I think not.
and i never stated that i know "real" america. i only described how i perceive her foreign actions as an outsider. do i make things clear?


Yes. Please list the 30 "major US invasions" and the 50 "smaller ones" since 1957 you speak of.:roll:
and why since 1957? better look at whole post ww2 us activity. i bring the link again.
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

well, if i remember correctly there is an article in wiki too..

[bthest86]

and why since 1957? better look at whole post ww2 us activity.

Did you not read the post I was quoting. Apparently not.:roll:

Maybe you can list the 30 major invasions he is talking about instead of linking to site that lists every minor troop deployment in 300 years of history.

[shocker1]

and i never stated that i know "real" america. i only described how i perceive her foreign actions as an outsider. do i make things clear?


.
No you do not comrade. I saw Red Dawn last nite on Spike and it upset my sense of humor. You are no longer funny.

[GreySpawn]

Did you not read the post I was quoting. Apparently not.:roll:

Maybe you can list the 30 major invasions he is talking about instead of linking to site that lists every minor troop deployment in 300 years of history.
http://safety.spbstu.ru/book/hrono/hrono/1900.html

go there , it's a list of wars and conflicts of a XX century. read and compare.

[bthest86]

Sorry, I can't read gibberish.

I'm still waiting for you tell me what the 30 major invasions in the last 50 years were.

[GreySpawn]

Sorry, I can't read gibberish.
I'm still waiting for you tell me what the 30 major invasions in the last 50 years were.

what i am - you mother, teacher? educate yourself.

[Hunterhr]

so, the big man hunterhr backed up


You crack me up. :) I'm sure everyone here is very impressed by the internet tough guy act.


No you do not comrade. I saw Red Dawn last nite on Spike and it upset my sense of humor. You are no longer funny.

You know, finally having spent a couple of winters in the mid-west, if the Cubans want to occupy it, they can go right ahead. Those damn kids were fighting for a frozen wasteland.

[SBL]

s

1)that state of transition you speak of is turning into state of degradation in past 5-7 years.. i'm not only blaming the west, as you presume, but it's mainly the west(particularry usa, and major players in eu) fault not to support adequatly...



Ah, the old "stay out of our business!/you didn't help us!" routine.

Like I said, these are issues best left to be solved by Ukrainans. You can pine for the good old days, but no system is without its flaws. The truth is, any nut can selectively choose what he or she wants to remember about the past. If Ukraine really wants to go back to the old system, then you should run for office. I think you'd win.

[Alex-L]

what i am - you mother, teacher? educate yourself.

I think you need to determine what you consider Major, cause to me major operations would be ousting a regime or govt and it has been what 4?

And if I do count all the conflicts that we did some sort of hostile action, weither it be bombing, troops on the ground, missles, or actually shooting down a jet, its closer to 50 total and that is not by far major.

Also, counting our troops on the ground as apart of Nato/UN request, that is not US intervention, that is lending our troops to the cause.