Baader-Meinhof mercy plea revives German split over student terrorism

[Switek]

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/images/TIMESHeadBGLogo_1.gif


Baader-Meinhof mercy plea revives German split over student terrorism
Roger Boyes in Berlin
Gang killer seeks parole after 24 years
1970s attacks still haunt country

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,387418,00.jpg
There are concerns that releasing Brigitte Mohnhaupt on the 30th anniversary of the killings would turn her into a celebrity

A smiling couple arrived bearing a bouquet of roses on the doorstep of the chief executive of Dresdner Bank. As the banker, Jürgen Ponto, turned to call for a vase, he was shot five times through the flowers by a woman terrorist.

That was almost 30 years ago, and yesterday the woman, Brigitte Mohnhaupt, pleaded with German judges to be allowed out on parole.

Now Germany has to decide if it should make its peace with the terrorists of the 1970s. The Baader-Meinhof Gang — later known as the Red Army Faction — killed 34 people, many of them members of the political and business elite.

The State, the police and the judiciary reacted with surprising ferocity, imposing years of solitary confinement on some of the captured terrorists.

It is an issue that still divides German society. Many politicians came to maturity during the 1968 student revolt or the years of ideological terrorism that it spawned. Liberal leaders, such as the Green deputy Antje Vollmer, say that even Nazi war criminals have not had to serve the lengths of the sentences handed down to the Baader-Meinhof followers. Other politicians and relatives of the victims say that there can be no forgiveness.

Mohnhaupt and her fellow killer Christian Klar were hardcore members of the gang. Besides killing Mr Ponto, they also shot dead the West German prosecutor-general Siegfried Buback and abducted, tortured and killed Hanns-Martin Schleyer, head of the West German Employers’ Federation.

Mohnhaupt was sentenced to five life terms and an extra 15 years. The judges took the unusual step of ordering that she stay behind bars for at least 24 years before being allowed to apply for parole.

Those 24 years were up yesterday. The woman who was led by a phalanx of police in bulletproof vests into a fortified Stuttgart courtroom no longer resembled the woman of the “Wanted” posters. Then, she was a resolute-looking blonde with mascara and thin lips. Today the 57-year-old has greying hair, bonier features and the sallowness of someone allowed outside for only an hour a day.

The hearings were held in camera and the judges will decide only next month on her release. She has not made a public declaration of remorse. “I think it would be inappropriate to say now, ‘I regret my crimes’,” Franz Schwinghammer, Mohnhaupt’s lawyer, said. “It would come over as rather insulting to the families of the victims.”

The leaders of the anti- capitalist gang — Ulrike Meinhof, Andreas Baader and Gudrun Ensslin — committed suicide in jail in 1976 and 1977. Others who were convicted have gradually been paroled and returned to normal life. Mohnhaupt and Klar have served far longer than any of the others. A psychiatrist’s report presented to court yesterday testified that Mohnhaupt was extremely unlikely to commit a violent crime again.

The prosecutor’s argument against parole was a pragmatic one: with the 30th anniversary of the killings approaching, a free Mohnhaupt would likely become a frequent guest of television chat shows, an overnight celebrity. That, in turn, would violate the rights of the families of the victims. Indeed the 90-year-old widow of Mr Schleyer — who was shot in the head by the terrorists after being tortured for six weeks — was quoted by the tabloid press as saying: “Don’t free the killer of my husband!” Klar, now 54, has also served 24 years in jail, but according to his original sentence he must wait another two years before applying for parole. He has appealed for clemency from President Köhler, who has been consulting people across the political spectrum before making a decision.

Other German terrorists have been released by presidential decree, but only on the ground of ill health or active attempts to make amends for their past. If the President frees Klar, the last of the terrorists, he will in effect be closing the chapter on the painful years.

“I don’t see extenuating circumstances in Klar’s case,” Klaus Pflieger, the Stuttgart prosecutor-general, said. “Putting mercy ahead of justice — that should be a very rare exception to the rule.” Yet there appears to be a real need to reintegrate the old terrorists.

Klar has been promised a job as a stage technician by the head of the Berlin Ensemble, Claus Peymann. Politicians such as the former Justice Minister Klaus Kinkel — who tried to begin a dialogue with the jailed terrorists in the 1990s — say that Germans should be open and tolerant enough to accept old terrorists back in their midst. “Somebody who has served 24 years in jail has to be given the chance of returning to society,” he said.

The way of violence

1968 Andreas Baader and his girlfriend, Gudrun Ensslin, bomb two Frankfurt department stores

1972 The gang leaders, including Baader, Ensslin, Ulrike Meinhof and Jan-Carl Raspe, are arrested. Their followers kidnap and kill almost a dozen people over five years in attempts to secure their release

1975 The Stammheim trial, prosecuting the gang leaders, begins. It proves the longest and most expensive trial in West German history and is stalked by violent protest

1977 Baader, Ensslin, Raspe commit suicide in prison after the failure of a plane hijacking to secure their release. Irmgard Möller survives

1994 Möller is freed on the grounds of ill-health and that she is no longer a threat Source: baader-meinhof.com

The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2560700,00.html)

[Jobu]

I'm incapable of forgiving pieces of **** like her. If it were up to me she'd be executed.

[ArmedPacifist]

It should be up to the victims families.

[apm]

that can only happen because we have the most goddamn liberal laws in the world. but honestly, i am not sure what makes me more angry: the fact that she can expect her release soon or that today murderers who did similar serious crimes even don´t get such high sentences anymore - at least the most of them.

[Midav]

IMO the sentence should not be changed. What they did was wrong. Keep them locked up. Sending the wrong message.

[GazB]

She can have parole... when she brings the guy she killed back to life. Otherwise she should serve her full sentence.

[Esszett]

IMO the sentence should not be changed. What they did was wrong. Keep them locked up. Sending the wrong message.

What I thought.
As soon as she would be released she'd be a hero to the old and new wannabe-"revoltionary"-people.
Completely sending a wrong message.

You kill and spread terror out of boredom and narcism -> spend a lifetime in prison, partly in solitary confinement.
That's a clear and understandable message to those idiots.

[Fuschimuschi]

Brigitte Mohnhaupt will walk free on parole on March 27:


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2345252,00.html

[striker]

I don't get it. I always thought that the concept of handing out multiple life sentences, is to preclude parole before natural death of the subject. As in, you can be paroled for your first life sentence after let's say 20 years, but that just means you got 4 more lifetimes to serve. And you can apply for parole for the next one after another 20 years. That way the original judges decision cannot be overturned by a society, that forgot the cruel fate of your victims 20 years later.
Any law cogniscanti here that can shed some light on this?

[apm]

i call that a ridiculous decision and would like to add that we have a law which is pretty much too liberal. indeed, it´s not a mistake to integrate the possibilities on probation and untimely dismissal in it - not everybody commits a crime due to malice, a crime like manslaughter in rage for example. but brigitte mohnhaupt took part in the killings of the german general prosecutor siegfried buback, two of his bodyguards and the chief executive officer of the dresdner bank, jürgen ponto, furthermore in the murder attempt on us general frederick kroesen. she killed ponto presenting him a bouquet of roses before shooting him five times through the flowers...and now they call it a five-fold lifelong sentence plus 15 years, but after not even 25 years they set her free.
i really do not know what i shall fin worse: that they release a person that was once called the most dangerous woman in germany, far before the time she had deserved, or that nowadays criminals not even get so high sentences for similar heavy crimes.

she even manages to smile on her last search warrant photo. :cantbeli:

http://onnachrichten.t-online.de/c/10/18/88/32/10188832,tid=d.jpg

edit @striker
that is unfortunately not the way how they handle it in germany. if the judges come to the conclusion that untimely release should be prevented due to the serious crime one did, they can set up a minimum time the sentenced has to spend in jail. mohnhaupt got 24 years as this time. the court set´s her free now because she is not supposed to be a danger anymore due to her age. nevertheless she never asked for mercy and she never felt sorry for her actions.

[striker]

@ apm, thanks
Ah, now I got it - judical mathematics:
5 x life + 15 years = 24 years without parole
So 5 x life = 9 years
life = 1 year 9 month and some 20 days
Life's pretty damn short in Germany :roll:

[SBL]

It should be up to the victims families.

X2. .............

[apm]

german law separates between limited prison sentences ("zeitige freiheitsstrafen") and lifelong prison sentences ("lebenslange freiheitsstrafen") . limited prison sentence amounts on a maximum of fifteen years and covers, for example, manslaughter or taking of hostages.

lifelong prison sentence amounts at least 15 years, and a maximum of 25 (between the 15. and the 25. year of custody the dismissal on probation is checked regularly).

the highest and only lifelong prison sentence german law knows is "lifelong with attached security custody" ("lebenslang mit anschließender sicherheitsverwahrung") what is a very rare sentence, and mostly only used against psychopaths, common-dangerous murderers or ****** delinquents. but even the security custody may be ended before the criminals life really ends. if the court decides that the criminal is not a danger anymore or he has regretted his actions and made a kind of reparation ("täter-opfer-ausgleich"), he can get free nonetheless.

well, can being ideologically blinded also mean being a psychopath? yes, says common sense. however the justice system does not share this opinion and finds thousands of reasons for someone to commit a crime.
and the five-fold lifelong sentence is interesting in that aspect that the base for it is missing. a german court normally only punishes the crime which is threatened with the highest sentence if a criminal commited several crimes before.
unfortunately security custody was only for ****** delinquents at the time of the trial against brigitte mohnhaupt, otherwise she had spent the rest of her days behind barks. :-(

[I Love GWB]

It's almost sure that she can leave prison



BERLIN, Germany (*******) -- A German court on Monday ordered the release of Brigitte Mohnhaupt, a former member of the Red Army Faction (RAF) who has spent 24 years in prison for her involvement in multiple kidnappings and murders in the 1970s[...]


http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/12/germany.meinhof.reut/index.html

IMO it's a shame to let someone out of jail who killed so many people on such a cruelly and brutal way :|

[Freibier]

There's no excuse for murder and lifelong should mean lifelong - mistake to let her out.

[variable]

Former German Terrorist Released

Brigitte Mohnhaupt, a former leader of the notorious Baader-Meinhof Gang, has been released from jail after 24 years following last month's controversial court decision to let her out on parole. Prison authorities shielded her from the media waiting at the gate, much to the anger of Germany's top-selling paper.

Former left-wing terrorist Brigitte Mohnhaupt was released early on Sunday morning after 24 years in jail for her role in a campaign of kidnapping and murder during the 1970s.

Mohnhaupt, 57, left the prison in the Bavarian town of Aichach shortly before two o'clock in the morning and was picked up by friends. The court decision last month to let her out on parole caused a storm of controversy with relatives of her victims and conservative politicians expressing outrage that she had not expressed remorse for her actions.

Prison authorities let her out two days before the official release date of Tuesday March 27, and appeared to have sent out a decoy vehicle to enable her to avoid reporters waiting at the prison gate. Shortly before midnight on Saturday night a van drove out and disappeared into the night. A little later the gate opened again and a car drove out with Mohnhaupt. She was handed over to friends at a secret location.

To spare her a media frenzy Mohnhaupt's departure was only announced after she had left. Friends have organized an apartment for her. Her lawyer urged the media to leave Mohnhaupt alone so that she could start leading a normal life.

Mass circulation newspaper Bild, part of the establishment the Baader-Meinhof gang, also known as the Red Army Faction, had tried to overthrow, ran a banner front page headline on Monday saying "Worst Terrorist Free!"

Fuming at having been prevented from seeing Mohnhaupt's release, the newspaper declared that she had been let out "in a government operation that was almost as big and secret as her arrest in 1982."

"And why? So as not to endanger her return to society! How generous of the state to protect the welfare of a dangerous criminal who was bent on destroying this state. Yes, sure, the release of Brigitte Mohnhaupt was legal. We have to bear it. But we are also allowed to feel anger."

Mohnhaupt, the leader of a second generation of Red Army Faction terrorists, was involved in the murders of federal prosecutor Siegfried Buback, employers federation chief Hanns Martin Schleyer and seven other people. She was caught in 1982 and sentenced to five life terms plus 15 years. She wasn't eligible for parole until this year.

The Stuttgart district court that ordered her release ruled that she no longer posed a threat to society. Her release is likely to fan debate about whether to free fellow terrorist Christian Klar, who does not come up for parole until 2009 but who has appealed to German President Horst Köhler for clemency.

His chances of freedom got a setback when it emerged that he had sent a letter to a left-wing conference in Berlin in January calling for a "defeat of the plans of capitalism," comments that some officials have interpreted as indicating he has not reformed in jail.

cro/AP/dpa/ddp

They did it.

[Liptow]

If the bitch wasn´t a leftist bitch, she would rotten in the prison to death. Todays european politicians are the same scum, just didn´t dare to go 110% in their trying to defeat capitalism and re-shape the society.

[variable]

....said the man from the former USSR :D

[Liptow]

Learn the geography again, or start to.

[variable]

I'm sorry. CSSR. Don't change my point though. Socialist is socialist. Left is left.

[loganinkosovo]

I'm sorry. CSSR. Don't change my point though. Socialist is socialist. Left is left.

A Commie by any other name.......is still running most of the EU!

:)

[Switek]

A Commie by any other name.......is still running most of the EU!

:)

bitter truth.... :|

[muck]

Mohnhaupt is very likely to see the end of her time in freedom soon. It was heavily criticised when she was granted parole earlier this year, that she still had withheld important informations about R-A-F crimes committed in the seventies. Federal prosecutors have requested coercive detention for her and other former members of the terror organization, which is supposed to force them to reveal the identity of a certain terrorist who had murdered Federal General Prosecutor Siegfried Buback in 1977. Coercive detention can last up to 6 months without trial according to German penalty law.

[muck]

Three of the former terrorists have been taken into coercive detention today.

[Switek]

Well a rather ambiguous but there are a good news...

[KoTeMoRe]

A Commie by any other name.......is still running most of the EU!

:)


You might have a look at the EU parliament...

[Mastermind]

Where is the responsibility for taking so many lives and disrupting society with cold blooded murdering terrorist activity?

Social Justice has a responsibiltiy...not to the murderers..but to society itself. The concern for this woman and her cohorts is sorely misplaced. She committed the acts, she chose her path willingly and has shown absolutely no remorse for her decisions and actions. Now society should see that she lives up to her accepted responsibility for her decisions. She should never be released. She should remain in prison until she dies and then she should be buried in an unmarked grave. This is the only way to demonstrate society will not tolerate her freely chosen behavior.

[toki]

Three of the former terrorists have been taken into coercive detention today.


Well a rather ambiguous but there are a good news...

It has nothing to do with the time they spend in jail before. It is, because they don't want to confess in another case.

What's really outrageous is that they show no remorse at all and still try to play that RAF game. Back to jail, till they die. :roll:

[Freibier]

yeah x2! People that show no remorse simply shouldn't be let out

[pacifist]

She should've followed Baader's and Ensslin's example:


http://www.kersplebedeb.com/blog/baader_ensslin_dead.jpg

[KoTeMoRe]

Where is the responsibility for taking so many lives and disrupting society with cold blooded murdering terrorist activity?

Social Justice has a responsibiltiy...not to the murderers..but to society itself. The concern for this woman and her cohorts is sorely misplaced. She committed the acts, she chose her path willingly and has shown absolutely no remorse for her decisions and actions. Now society should see that she lives up to her accepted responsibility for her decisions. She should never be released. She should remain in prison until she dies and then she should be buried in an unmarked grave. This is the only way to demonstrate society will not tolerate her freely chosen behavior.

Society...yeah that tiny shiny piece of word that gets hypocritically used from time to time.

Justice is actually professionnal and handed out using norms that do not always fit the social reality. Hence this case.

[Mastermind]

Well, try living without "society"...that's a grand thought. Men are social animals. Society means laws and order, established structured systems to allow men to live in peace within a group...otherwise, you have anrachy and chaos. Try accomplishing anything under those nonsocial conditions...you end up with Rwanda, the Congo or worse.

Laws were made to help establish social order. When the laws and law makers go bad...so goes that order.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I've never really understood why many Germans still harbor sympathy for those people. Let 'em rot.

[toki]

I've never really understood why many Germans still harbor sympathy for those people. Let 'em rot.

As a kid i didn't understand it anyway, but i recall that in the 80's every traffic light pole was plastered with RAF stickers. I didn't even know what RAF was, but the gun and the star is really present in my memories.

http://www.antagoniste.net/WP-Uploads/2007/02/raf-logo.gif

I assume it was pro RAF, like free them blah blah.

One of the last RAF killings happened in my hometown btw.
I had a class mate who lived a few houses next to it. And he had the same family name as the victim, which was kinda funny for us. Even teachers asked him if he was related to him.

Early nineties: Detlev Karsten Rohwedder. He was sniped in his living room, at night. The street is parallel to the river bank and between the river and the street there's a little allot settlement, where the sniper hid. I played there quite often.
I think this murder is still not fully investigated and Monhaupt could have some infos on it.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

As a kid i didn't understand it anyway, but i recall that in the 80's every traffic light pole was plastered with RAF stickers. I didn't even know what RAF was, but the gun and the star is really present in my memories.



I assume it was pro RAF, like free them blah blah.
The argument I here is that by trying to blow up Karstadt or the Axel Springer Verlag and by kidnapping or killing German and American politicians or military personnel they were somehow fighting for some freedom from the remnants of the fascist past of Germany.

For me they were and remain common terrorists manipulating false ideals to justify their bloodlust. I'm not a fan of the 68 generation... but maybe you had to be there at that time to understand.

Sometimes I think that in order to escape it's fascist past, some Germans are ****e to embrace and accept any sort of left-wing radical.

[toki]

The argument I here is that by trying to blow up Karstadt or the Axel Springer Verlag and by kidnapping or killing German and American politicians or military personnel they were somehow fighting for some freedom from the remnants of the fascist past of Germany.

For me they were and remain common terrorists manipulating false ideals to justify their bloodlust. I'm not a fan of the 68 generation... but maybe you had to be there at that time to understand.

Sometimes I think that in order to escape it's fascist past, some Germans are ****e to embrace and accept any sort of left-wing radical.

It's an old discussion. I think it's undisputable that the 68er changed alot (not saying positive or negative atm), and my generation (born mid late 70's and early 80's) really felt it. Not conciously though. It begins with ultra liberal elementary school teachers and ends with super alternative education methods.

I have friends who went to a private 'alternative' Anti Authority(?) Kindergarten. They are now sometimes more conservative than their parents though. But the late 60's turned Germany upside down. I had a pretty normal upbringing though, but if your parents were very active in that time you really felt it, and you knew which kids in school had those aged student type parents. Everything was "Öko". When you slept over at their house or just had lunch there you felt that PC to the bone attitude, even though you didn't know what it was. :)

A friend of mine even has an alternative name. His parents decided to cut their names in the middle and create a new name. Attila + Heidi = Attei, no joke. Anti establishment to the bone, not really something kids need.

It was the same in other countries, but in Germany it had a distinct purpose in the sixties. To distance yourself from the parental 'Nazi' generation. And since 'Nazi' is bad, there were few counter arguments. Those left types later formed the Green Party. That's why Germany has the strongest Green Party, probably in the whole world.

Times have changed though. 1968 is now 40 years ago. If you reflect of recovering from the 'Nazi' Past you always have to reflect that we now recover from the 68er. And both are correlated 100%.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

It's an old discussion. I think the 68er changed alot (not saying positive or negative atm), and my generation (born 70's and 80's) really felt it. Not conciously though. It begins with ultra liberal elementary school teachers and ends with super alternative education methods. I have friends who went to a private 'alternative' Anti Authority(?) Kindergarten. They are now sometimes more conservative than their parents though. But the late 60's turned Germany upside down. I had a pretty normal upbringing though, but if your parents were very active in that time you really felt it, and you knew which kids in school had those aged student type parents. Everything was "Öko" when you slept over at their house or just had lunch there. :)
I missed the hardcore öko times in Germany, even though at certain universities in Germany you'll still find remnants of it, just as you find hippie colonies in the US. Hippies and German Ökos aren't exactly the same, but there are similarities.

IMO the 68 generation brought a lot of positive change to Germany... Germany was still searching for it's new identity in the late 60s and 70s... however as with any ideal religiously followed, it initiated some negative change as well, particularly when some took the spirit of revolution too far and fixed some things that weren't broken, exaggerated some positive change to the extent of corrupting it and in many cases (still felt among it's left-wing political elite) entered into a self-serving, self-satisfying culture of reality denial.

Ultimately history casts a positive light on the 68 generation I believe, however some of it's unpleasant after-effects plague the country today.

You're on target about some liberally-raised kids being quite conservative or even worse, hyper-capitalistic... ))) It's THEIR form of rebellion.

[toki]

You're on target about some liberally-raised kids being quite conservative or even worse, hyper-capitalistic... ))) It's THEIR form of rebellion.

Hehe, the worst megalomaniac capitalist in my elementary school (LOL) was one of the Öko brothers. He forced his mother to buy him Transformers and Masters of the Universe figures. Since he was pretty relentless and dominant in his "anti authority upbringing" his mother just gave in, LOL. And later when the first Star Wars trilogy figures collected dust in our Kinderzimmer he ripped us all off and we sold him our figures for 1 DM a piece. When he later had a complete collection he laughed at us in a Dr. Evil way. Muahahaha, you fools.
I still claim, "You bastard, that was my Boba Fett".

[muck]

I've never really understood why many Germans still harbor sympathy for those people. Let 'em rot.

They never had a reason to hate them with passion. The RAF hardly killed people which weren't on their target list, they directed their attacks against the Bonzen, the top brass of the hated military, the financial sector, the armament- and nuclear economy. Being confronted with a peaky state ready to the endmost battle, the average German regarded heavily armed police controls and isolation inprisonment as the major threat to the national security than the actions of the RAF.The majority of them had never been able to realize how much this terrorist group threatened the stability of the German nation.
And last but not least - even today the combined left holds more than 250 seats in the Bundestag. There is still support for socialism in Germany. Many politicians which supported the regime of Eastern Germany and radical leftism in the West are still so-called honorable representatives of the German people. Take Hans-Christian Stroebele as an example (he is an green though). He has a seat in the diet despite having been convicted before for helping the RAF. I wasn't suprised when he called to ignore the court-decisions against the anti-G8-protesters last june.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

The majority of them had never been able to realize how much this terrorist group threatened the stability of the German nation.
And last but not least - even today the combined left holds more than 250 seats in the Bundestag. There is still support for socialism in Germany.
Yeah, this is painfully obvious among that very 68 generation. They just won't let go.... listening to Claudia Roth, Stroebele makes me ill, as do "die Linken" LaFontaine and Gysi (even if they aren't 68 generation but some other aberration).

On the other hand, I really liked Fischer. Seems to me he usually had a fairly intelligent view of things. A recovering Grünoholic... )

[KoTeMoRe]

Well, try living without "society"...that's a grand thought. Men are social animals. Society means laws and order, established structured systems to allow men to live in peace within a group...otherwise, you have anrachy and chaos. Try accomplishing anything under those nonsocial conditions...you end up with Rwanda, the Congo or worse.

Laws were made to help establish social order. When the laws and law makers go bad...so goes that order.

That's my point, "society" (or better said the group) is a breathing, emotional, senseless crature, it is in some ways the last animal survivance among men, laws are the attempt to quench this survivance. So sometimes rules and society run into eachother.

As for the law makers... they're long dead before the said crash happens.

Social animals, I will refrain my self from answering thouroughly but would add just that men are men, and animals are animals, all similarities between them are related to their back ground and territory.

When a wolf would think investing in a lawyer to defend these leftist detainees then I'll probably back my statement down.

Anyway I'll stop the whole off topic rant here. Thanks for the reply.

Cheers.