US: Taiwan status negotiable

[Uninen]

Link! (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1AAA64C5-C680-4FC6-B49E-208431932212.htm)

--

US: Taiwan status negotiable

Washington has announced it would not oppose a change in the status quo between Taiwan and China, provided any change was mutually agreed.

Speaking at a security conference in Singapore on Thursday, the deputy assistant secretary of state underscored a US desire to see the two sides resume talks frozen for four years.

Matthew Daley said his announcement reinforced "the point ... that American policy is not simply one of insisting on the status quo".

Analysts said the statement was really a warning to Taiwan that unilateral moves toward independence could destroy its economic and democratic "miracle".

No military solution

Washington has also warned President Chen Shui-bian to take China's threats of military retaliation seriously.

Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly said: "We in the United States see these risks clearly and trust they are well understood by (Chen) and others in Taiwan."

But Kelly also said that if China moved militarily against Taiwan, Bush's three-year-old promise to "do whatever it took" to defend Taiwan would come into play.

China continues to deploy intimidating missiles opposite Taiwan and refuses to renounce the use of force despite US pleadings that it should do so.

Accepting reunification?

Kelly added the "one China" policy of having official relations with Beijing while maintaining unofficial ties with Taiwan had served the nation well for nearly three decades.

He also reiterated that the US does not support Taiwan independence.

"A unilateral move towards independence will avail Taiwan of nothing it does not already enjoy in terms of democratic freedom, autonomy, prosperity and security."

--

:roll:

If this is all true and they really mean what their saying, i think that this is good news.....

(i underlined the "good parts"....)

[ronin2172]

i'll bite, why is this good news?

I can see why it is for china but not for taiwan. If the Taiwanese don't want to be part of mainland china then leave them alone. If Taiwan wants to be an independant country so what? Considering that Taiwan/Formosa has never been a part of the PRC, i think their claim is tenuous at best. This is just an example of China being a bully.

If i was the Taiwanese i would be nervous as hell, china has gone back on it's promises in Hong Kong.

[Ghostwolf]

Uninen, what is your problem with Taiwan, and what does Taiwan got to hold against you?

What is so fun about watching a totaltarian communist regime bullying a young democratic state? Forgot your medication I presume?

[Uninen]

Why is this good news? Well.. as you know, great many of those that "we" call as Taiwanese are actually Chinese, and also, Formossa has been prior the Japanese occupation under mainlands "control"......

I think it would be great / good if they would someday unite cause they are basicly same people.

We dont need two Chinas, one nationalist and one "communist" ( :lol: ) we need united China.

(and lets face, as long as this thing remains unsettled, there is possibility of war, now we really dont need / hope for a another war do we?)

And also its good cause USA says that it wont no longer "mess with them" if they want to talk about what they wanna do.

Does my reply make any sense? I hope it does.... :P

[Uninen]

Uninen, what is your problem with Taiwan, and what does Taiwan got to hold against you?

What is so fun about watching a totaltarian communist regime bullying a young democratic state? Forgot your medication I presume?

As with China / Taiwan and with Koreas i just would love to see nations / peoples united, and not divided. That makes sense? No?

[Flagg]

This is just an example of China being a bully.

No it's a matter of national pride.....One China WILL happen....stopping it would be about as difficult as trying to boil an ocean.

I suspect the US deviation in policy is due to the following:

*China offering an solution with North Korea as they have the most influence over NK

*China offering assistance and/or political support regarding the situation in Iraq

In exchange.....China likely gets Taiwan sooner...at little to no real cost

[Ghostwolf]

I think it would be great / good if they would someday unite cause they are basicly same people.


Why don't you try telling that to the Africans, that they should unite and form a single African nation? Or yet tell the Americans to unite with Europe, because most of their ancestors were originated from Europe?

The U.S. still regards PRC as a potential future adversary, PRC helping the U.S. with the NK negotiation does not make them friends, and therefore it is highly unlikely that the U.S. will sell out Taiwan in return, otherwise the entire strategic balance will be tipped towards the communist side.

The so-called "one country, two systems" is nothing but a fairytale. Recently the Beijing government announced that it will retain the final decision on who will be elected as legislator, or governor of Hong Kong in the next coming elections in Hong Kong. By announcing that, the PRC has betrayed the Hong Kong citizens about maintaining freedom and democracy in that region for the next 50 year using the socalled "one country, two system" policy. The citizens of Hong Kong can do nothing but watching their freedom and rights being peeling away like an onion. As for Taiwanese people and politicians, after watching that happened, are certainly not stupid enough to fall for that trick.

[ronin2172]

i don't know if it will happen or not, and i don't see Taiwan breaking down any doors to 'reunite' with China.

The key statement was IF the two parties agree

u say pride i see a bully, a greedy one at that. i wonder if taiwan had a crappy economy and was in debt up to it's eyeballs if china would be so eager to 'reunite'.

Ask the people in Hong kong if they r happy at being part of 'one' china. From the reports i have seen they r dismayed that the freedoms that the chinese government said they would not tamper with too much, are being stripped away.

Why is this good news? Well.. as you know, great many of those that "we" call as Taiwanese are actually Chinese, and also, Formossa has been prior the Japanese occupation under mainlands "control"......

But formosa was never part of the PRC, it was part of a country that basically doesn't exist anymore (dynastic china).

I think it would be great / good if they would someday unite cause they are basicly same people.

That means squat. Hell at one point in time The USA and UK were 'one' people, does that mean they should be together? No, british pride was stung for a while but they learned to accept it and moved on.

We dont need two Chinas, one nationalist and one "communist" ( ) we need united China.

Is this East china versus west china? No last time i checked it is Taiwan and the PRC. So where is this two chinas? This was not one country seperated after a war (i.e. Korea) it was NEVER part of the PRC. If that is the case Mexico would have a helluva case for wanting texas back (Mind u they would have to overlook the whole texans don't want to be in Mexico thing). Or hell then Argentina should get the falklands back, but wait the people that live there don't want to be under argentine rule and haven't been under argentine rule ever. What the people want they should have, and so far the Taiwanese like what they have and they should be allowed to keep it if they want to. China needs to let things be and focus on internal problems.

(and lets face, as long as this thing remains unsettled, there is possibility of war, now we really dont need / hope for a another war do we?)

the first decent thing u have said, but if China was to let bygones be bygones there will be no war. What china is doing is intimidation plain and simple, unless u say staging military manuvers, test firing missles, and giving ominous warnings during taiwanese elections a normal part of doing things.

And also its good cause USA says that it wont no longer "mess with them" if they want to talk about what they wanna do

re read your original post- the US never said they would stop the two uniting, it said they would intervene IF China was to invade Taiwan. It also said the US would support any proposal that the TWO parties agreed on.

[J-10]

This is just an example of China being a bully.

No it's a matter of national pride.....One China WILL happen....stopping it would be about as difficult as trying to boil an ocean.

I suspect the US deviation in policy is due to the following:

*China offering an solution with North Korea as they have the most influence over NK

*China offering assistance and/or political support regarding the situation in Iraq

In exchange.....China likely gets Taiwan sooner...at little to no real cost

I add one point:
Bush said the US side fully recognizes the importance of economic and trade cooperation to the relationship between the two countries, and hopes to further expand trade with China and bring more benefits to the two peoples through continuous development of bilateral economic and trade relations.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-04/22/content_1434393.htm

[Flagg]

I add one point:
Bush said the US side fully recognizes the importance of economic and trade cooperation to the relationship between the two countries, and hopes to further expand trade with China and bring more benefits to the two peoples through continuous development of bilateral economic and trade relations.

Also J10..I think strictly NON MILITARY is the only way it will happen, but it will happen.....much sooner now than it would have been before this US policy change.

I think the biggest factor to accelerating the inevitable reunification is democratic reform on the part of China.

I think it would be in the best interest of China to ease up on HK....and make a similiar deal with Taiwan......semi-independence......and eventual full integration

As both nations are exclusively Chinese in ethnicity I think it's a strictly Chinese issue as long as the rights of Taiwanese are truly respected.

[J-10]

Every guy, Abraham Lincoln was a great president!!

Why? He united the U.S.A. !!!

If not, North U.S.A. and South U.S.A. would be exist side by side now.

[J-10]

I add one point:
Bush said the US side fully recognizes the importance of economic and trade cooperation to the relationship between the two countries, and hopes to further expand trade with China and bring more benefits to the two peoples through continuous development of bilateral economic and trade relations.

Also J10..I think strictly NON MILITARY is the only way it will happen, but it will happen.....much sooner now than it would have been before this US policy change.

I think the biggest factor to accelerating the inevitable reunification is democratic reform on the part of China.

I think it would be in the best interest of China to ease up on HK....and make a similiar deal with Taiwan......semi-independence......and eventual full integration

As both nations are exclusively Chinese in ethnicity I think it's a strictly Chinese issue as long as the rights of Taiwanese are truly respected.

I hope China become more free and democratic with the economic development.

[Rakki]

If China does end up being a democratic country than "reunification" should be a non-issue - not because reunification is INEVITABLE, but because both countries' people can run their own affairs how they see fit.

And don't listen to the Chinese go on about "ethnicity" or whatever. Taiwan has its own distinct national character as anybody who has been to the two countries would know.

[Flagg]

If China does end up being a democratic country than "reunification" should be a non-issue - not because reunification is INEVITABLE, but because both countries' people can run their own affairs how they see fit.

And don't listen to the Chinese go on about "ethnicity" or whatever. Taiwan has its own distinct national character as anybody who has been to the two countries would know.

Unfortunately...the decision TO reunify isn't likely to be Taiwan's

The world is resigned to a One China policy

The biggest supporter of Taiwan is the US......and the US appears to be selling out support for Taiwan in exchange for China's support for something else:

Likely the resolution of the North Korean issue amongst other things

And without US support, any remaining strong support for Taiwan will fade as those supporters lose economically from the development of China.

And all China has to do is create a razor thin vaneer of democracy..and crank up the PR machine

[J-10]

it was part of a country that basically doesn't exist anymore (dynastic china).


Pls learn more history of China, specially to the part of Taiwan island. In fact, the history of China controlled Taiwan island was much longer than the history of U.S.A.

[J-10]

By the way, I remind that All kinds of cold war ideology are expired now.

[ronin2172]

Pls learn more history of China, specially to the part of Taiwan island. In fact, the history of China controlled Taiwan island was much longer than the history of U.S.A.

That is not the issue, u need to live in the here and now. The china that controlled taiwan/formosa DOESN"T exist anymore. If u look at it the last government to control it was that of Chang Kai Shek (or was that cash my check?lol).

And who pray tell formed what we now know as Taiwan, *gasp* the same Chang kai Shek (or however u spell his name).

The china u r talking about was the china ruled by who? The emperors, and won't u agree that this is a different China, or are u telling me that we have all been fooled all of this time. Ok i guess Mao and his succesors are in all actuality the heirs to the old dynasties? If u r gonna use that logic at one time i think Manchuria was it's own nation, looks like u better grant them independance. Oh yea what about Tibet? It's a shame that their rightful ruler has to live in exile because of the chinese occupation of his country. If i remember correctly China was once split into three kingdoms i guess u should revert to that. History cuts both ways if u use that as a justification.

Get over it. Taiwan has never been ruled or been a part of the PRC. The Taiwanese owe none of their economic success to the PRC. If they want to rejoin it should be up to them not the PRC.

[J-10]

I think it is a good news too, a wise Bush government. :D

[Ghostwolf]

Pls learn more history of China, specially to the part of Taiwan island. In fact, the history of China controlled Taiwan island was much longer than the history of U.S.A.

Yeah, I remembered that part alright. China was under the administration of the Nationalist Republic government and not by the communists. That is until the end of WWII, when communists started the civil war in an attempt to overthrow the Nationalist Republic government. The remaining Nationalist government officials retreated to Taiwan and set up new administrations there.

So if it wasn't for Mao Ze Tung's(whatever his name is called) stupid idea of starting a civil war to turn the country to red, the entire Chinese nation will still be in one piece.

Now the PRC wants Taiwan in the name of "reunification"? That is NOT reunification, that is call attempted annexation of another state. If PRC is using its armed forces to take Taiwan by force, that would be called invasion, not just some socalled "internal matters of the Chinese state".

The mistakes and hatred are already made, if PRC wish to coexist with Taiwan, the decision would be up to Taiwan to decide, not PRC. As I mentioned before, the policy of "one country, two system" WILL NOT work. Just look at what happen to Hong Kong right now, 6 years after returning to the PRC control, and all that democracy and freedom and individual rights are being taken away.

[ronin2172]

dayum j-10 u could at least say i'm full of it! Hell flagg gave a better arguement than u did and he isn't even chinese! (i think....LOL).

I think it is a good news too, a wise Bush government.


Where is the good news? As i see it nothing has been resolved, u need to reread the statement.

BOTH parties have to agree, and the way China is acting now nothing is gonna happen.

[ronin2172]

me and ghostwolf r on the same wavelength...lol! i have no problem with the 2 countries uniting...if it is fair and equitable, and if most importantly the Taiwanese want that.

They have achieved a lot economically and democratically over the last 50+ years and they shouldn't have to give any of it up, just because big ol PRC doesn't like that

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

A threat of a rise in the price of white goods coming from China will have every western nation telling Taiwan to get with the program and reunify. :)

[J-10]

Just look at what happen to Hong Kong right now, 6 years after returning to the PRC control, and all that democracy and freedom and individual rights are being taken away.

Really?

I think no change as before.

[ronin2172]

A threat of a rise in the price of white goods coming from China will have every western nation telling Taiwan to get with the program and reunify. :)

lol so true! :lol:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Just look at what happen to Hong Kong right now, 6 years after returning to the PRC control, and all that democracy and freedom and individual rights are being taken away.

Really?

I think no change as before.
Got to agree with J-10 I know people who have bought retirement homes in my town but live and work in HK and I never hear them say anything bad about the place one couple have brought up their kids there and as far as I know the kids won't be coming back when they retire.

[ronin2172]

actually some stuff is starting up over there now, the chinese r begining to 'rethink' their whole stance on the political freedoms that Hong Kong was supposed to have, that and there are serious issues cropping up with Hon kong's press

[ronin2172]

HONG KONG, China (CNN) -- China's ruling that it has the sole power to initiate political change in Hong Kong is seen as the biggest step taken since 1997 to tighten reins over the pro-democracy movement.

In a clear message that China's central government is tightening its control over the rule of law, it has prohibited Hong Kong from initiating change without Beijing's approval.

"The right to amend the law belongs to the National People's Congress," Qiao Xiaoyang, deputy secretary-general of the NPC's Standing Committee, told a press conference.

"The central government has the deciding power on changes of Hong Kong's political structure in the entire process."

Beijing officials say there is no cause for alarm in their interpretation of Hong Kong's mini-constitution, known as the Basic Law.

Chinese lawmakers said they were propelled to carry out the interpretations on how the leader and politicians are chosen in Hong Kong to end disputes and confusion in the territory amid a rising tide of pro-democracy protests.

Before the ruling there was no clear-cut indication of who should initiate reform in the territory, but democrats in Hong Kong had assumed they just needed two-thirds of legislators to agree to move ahead.

The free-wheeling territory of 6.8 million people was given a high degree of autonomy when it was handed over to China in 1997 under the "one country, two systems" formula.

Beijing pledged to keep the special administrative region's capitalist systems and way of life "unchanged" for 50 years.

The Basic Law came into effect at the time of the handover allowing direct elections for the territory as soon as 2008, the year after unpopular Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa's term expires.

But the constitution also states Beijing has a final say over any electoral changes, and residents have been watching to see how China interpreted the Basic Law ahead of legislative elections in September.

Around half a million people rallied in July last year, and a smaller number this January, demanding political change in a city where the leader is handpicked by a committee loyal to Beijing and less than half the legislature is directly elected.

While Hong Kong put a controversial anti-subversion law on hold following the mass uprising, in his annual policy speech in January, Tung skirted growing calls for voting rights, disappointing activists who had hoped he would launch public consultations early in the year.

Instead, Tung said any consultations on democracy would be with Beijing first, and established a task force to consult with Chinese leaders.

Playing hardball

Outspoken democracy leader Martin Lee addresses demonstrators.
In recent months, Chinese President Hu Jintao's administration has played hardball, worried calls for more democracy in the territory will spill over to the mainland.

Beijing is also concerned about losing control over the territory, prompting it to issue rhetoric not seen in decades.

It stressed that Hong Kong's ruling elite must consist of "patriotic" elements and has labeled pro-democracy politicians "unpatriotic."

China's hard stance has cast into doubt Beijing's commitment to reform, and has also strained ties with Taiwan, the United States and the rest of the world. (Beijing jitters)

A visit by outspoken democracy leader Martin Lee to Washington in March rattled Beijing.

The United States has been upfront about wanting more democracy in Hong Kong, with the State Department repeating calls that it supports electoral reform and universal suffrage.

But China has responded by asking Washington to stop interfering in its internal affairs.

Democrats in Hong Kong see Beijing's move as an alarming sign of interference, China expert Willy Lam told CNN. They say it sets a bad precedent and allows China to step in as often as it wants in the territory's internal affairs.

China's tactic of muffling rising calls for voting rights has worked to lower expectations among the population.

Most opinion polls conducted last year showed 80 percent of the population supported universal suffrage by 2007, but now that number has fallen to around 60 percent, Lam said.

Meanwhile only 43 percent of 1,045 people interviewed in a poll conducted by the University of Hong Kong in February said they trusted Beijing, down from 50 percent at the end of December.

There u go Bcilluspolymyxa....mind if i call u bac? or poly? or myxa? lol

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

As far as details ronin2172 I really do not know what the Chinese Govt has in store for HK I can only listen to people who are staying there and they seem to be happy with the situation I don't think they are "window dressing". As far as I know there was a long running debate in HK before the UK handed it over to China about fair and proper representation but the British snubbed the people of HK many times on this issue. No I would not be surprised if the Chinese tried to influence the political machinery or media of HK we here in the UK did it for years.

[ronin2172]

i see what u r saying but like i said they were demonstrating in the streets and a lot of people seem to be nervous over the whole thing. One of Hong Kong's leading democracy leaders went to washington DC lately and the chinese issued the US a warning!

BEIJING, China (CNN) -- China has warned the United States against meddling in Hong Kong affairs as an outspoken democracy leader from the territory meets with top officials in Washington.

Opposition politician Martin Lee met U.S. National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice on Thursday and spoke to a U.S. Senate committee about democracy in the former British colony.

But the trip has irked Beijing, with the foreign ministry saying on its Web site (www.fmprc.gov.cn) that it opposes any attempts to interfere in China's internal affairs.

"China has enough wisdom to deal with the Hong Kong question according to the law and does not need external forces to make irresponsible remarks," ******* quoted the ministry as saying.

The free-wheeling territory of 6.8 million people was given wide autonomy when it was handed over to China in 1997 under the "one country, two systems" formula.

Under its constitution, the Basic Law, the territory could theoretically enjoy full democracy in 2007, the year when unpopular Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa's term expires.

But the constitution also says Beijing has final say over any electoral changes, and many residents are watching to see how China interprets the Basic Law and where it stands on direct elections in 2007.

Around half a million people rallied in July last year, and a smaller number this January, demanding political change in a city where the chief executive is handpicked by an election committee loyal to Beijing and less than half the legislature is directly elected.

But in his annual policy speech in January, Tung skirted growing demands for democratic reform, disappointing activists in the territory who had hoped he would launch public consultations early this year.

Instead, Tung said any consultations on democracy would be with Beijing first, and said he would establish a task force to consult with Chinese leaders.

Lose control
China is set to begin its annual session of parliament on Friday, and Hong Kong is likely to be high on the agenda amid concerns that calls for more democracy in the territory will spill over to the mainland. Beijing is also worried it could lose control over the special administrative region.

Chinese President Hu Jintao's administration has reacted by playing hardball with Hong Kong's pro-democracy activists, casting into doubt Beijing's commitment to reform and straining relations with Taiwan, the United States and the rest of the world. (Beijing jitters)


The protests on July 1 were the biggest ever seen in Hong Kong.
Lee, who is in favor of the reunification of Taiwan, has said his trip is not about stirring relations with China.

"Ultimately I believe the new leaders in Beijing will understand that what we are doing is actually good for Hong Kong and Taiwan."

"If Hong Kong does well under 'one country, two systems' then there is hope that there will be a peaceful solution in Taiwan which will lead to reunification.

China has issued blunt reminders to the United States, asking Washington to stop interfering in its internal affairs. Locally, it has stressed that Hong Kong's ruling elite must consist of "patriotic" elements and labeled pro-democracy politicians such as Lee "unpatriotic."

For its part, the United States has been upfront about wanting more democracy in Hong Kong. In January, U.S. State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said Washington supported electoral reform and universal suffrage in Hong Kong.

"Our belief is in democracy," Boucher said at the briefing in Washington. "The Hong Kong people and the Hong Kong government need to start addressing this issue."

China's bid to muffle rising calls for voting rights has dented confidence in the territory. Only 43 percent of 1,045 people interviewed in a poll conduced by the University of Hong Kong in February said they trusted Beijing, down from 50 percent at the end of December.

this type of stuff can't make Taiwan feel to confident

[ronin2172]

hopefully the climate has changed but i haven't seen any new news on it

[Ghostwolf]

I think no change as before.
Then read this. Does the name "Hong Kong Basic Law Article 23" ringed a bell to you?
If you still say no, you've been lying to yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law_Article_23
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Hong-Kong-Basic-Law-Article-23

If you can't read English, here's a simplified Chinese version.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF%E5%9F%BA%E6%9C%AC%E6%B3%95%E7%AC%AC23%E6%9D%A1

and those conscientious Hong Kong citizens who fought the "law", literally.
http://www.againstarticle23.org/en/

This is just the first step, there are plenty more of these attempts to follow, in order to restrict Hong Kong citizens' freedoms and rights and for the Chinese communists to gain more control.

[duck]

Any FILTH (Failed in London, try Hong Kong) people on this board? Heard it was quite common for less talented University graduates with good connections to head for HK during the colonial days. There was always a job in the colonial administration for a WASP guy or two. Easy working hours, Chinese service personnel, horse races, private clubs. Then came 1997.

It's not easy to accept working FOR the Chinese after those experiences, I guess.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Any FILTH (Failed in London, try Hong Kong) people on this board? Heard it was quite common for less talented University graduates with good connections to head for HK during the colonial days. There was always a job in the colonial administration for a WASP guy or two. Easy working hours, Chinese service personnel, horse races, private clubs. Then came 1997.

It's not easy to accept working FOR the Chinese after those experiences, I guess.
There is a good number of people from my area who may fall into this catagory, we seemed to export a lot of admin types to the colonies, it just seems to be people who done very well in banking that are coming back to my area to retire I was told that a lot of people who retire from jobs in HK and don't stay go to Oz.

[J-10]

I think no change as before.
Then read this. Does the name "Hong Kong Basic Law Article 23" ringed a bell to you?
If you still say no, you've been lying to yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law_Article_23
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Hong-Kong-Basic-Law-Article-23

If you can't read English, here's a simplified Chinese version.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF%E5%9F%BA%E6%9C%AC%E6%B3%95%E7%AC%AC23%E6%9D%A1

and those conscientious Hong Kong citizens who fought the "law", literally.
http://www.againstarticle23.org/en/

This is just the first step, there are plenty more of these attempts to follow, in order to restrict Hong Kong citizens' freedoms and rights and for the Chinese communists to gain more control.

I have seen all above. The Hong Kong Government proposed a law, but many Hong Kong peoples unlike it, so that the law did not become effective. OK? :)

So, You said:"Just look at what happen to Hong Kong right now, 6 years after returning to the PRC control, and all that democracy and freedom and individual rights are being taken away. " ---- is not in fact.

Now, nothing to be changed in Hong Kong as before, include "all that democracy and freedom and individual rights". :D

[ronin2172]

uhhh j-10 who r u? U sound like an official mouthpiece for the Chinese government.....

HONG KONG, China (CNN) -- Hong Kong's chief executive is defending a ruling by Beijing that the central government has the sole power to decide if the territory needs political change.

Beijing officials are expected to visit the former British colony on Wednesday to assure lawmakers and legal experts that the city is not losing its autonomy after the ruling on the scope and timetable of political development.

"[It] has not damaged the one country, two systems principle,'' Hong Kong's Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa said at a press conference.

The National People's Congress (NPC) committee ruling on Tuesday is being seen as the biggest step taken since 1997 to tighten reins over a pro-democracy movement.(China lays down the law in HK)

In the ruling, China's central government says it has the right to amend Hong Kong's law, and it has the deciding power on changes to the territory's political structure.

"A locality has no fixed power," said Qiao Xiaoyang, deputy secretary-general of the NPC's Standing Committee.

"All powers of the locality derive from the authorization of the central authorities."

Beijing officials say there is no cause for alarm in their interpretation of Hong Kong's mini constitution, known as the Basic Law.

The law follows the "one country, two systems" principle agreed upon when Britain handed over its former colony to China in 1997.

Chinese lawmakers were propelled to carry out the interpretations by what they said was a need to end disputes and confusion in the territory amid a rising tide of pro-democracy protests.
Democrats in Hong Kong see Beijing's move as an alarming sign of interference, China expert Willy Lam told CNN. They say it sets a bad precedent and allows China to step in as often as it wants in the territory's internal affairs.

"They have now changed the goal posts," lawmaker Martin Lee, Hong Kong's best-known opposition figure, who has been branded a traitor by Beijing, told The Associated Press.
In Hong Kong, several dozen activists chanted, "Unite and fight back!" as they marched to government headquarters before dispersing peacefully.

Around half a million people rallied in July last year, and a smaller number this January, demanding political change in a city where the leader is handpicked by a committee loyal to Beijing and less than half the legislature is directly elected

Nothing has changed......interesting

[J-10]

I have a question: Why the Hong Kong leaders were not directly elected by Hong Kong people before 1997 ? I think it was not democratic, a bad precedent was set by UK government.

[ronin2172]

that has no bearing on what we r talking about. we r talking about the here and now, not what the UK did six years or sixteen, or sixty years ago.
Maybe the UK wasn't fair but that doesn't excuse chinese behavior now.

[Ghostwolf]

So, You said:"Just look at what happen to Hong Kong right now, 6 years after returning to the PRC control, and all that democracy and freedom and individual rights are being taken away. " ---- is not in fact.

Now, nothing to be changed in Hong Kong as before, include "all that democracy and freedom and individual rights". :D

You know, you can deny all you can about what's going on in Hong Kong, but it will not change the truth.
Here's one more pin prick to your dream bubble......

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040421/wl_afp/hongkong_china_politics_040421072515

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040421/capt.sge.iyf76.210404072515.photo00.default-357x384.jpg

Hong Kong democrats slam China for reform talks 'shut-out'


Wed Apr 21, 3:25 AM ET

HONG KONG, (AFP) - Hong Kong pro-democracy legislators are claiming senior Chinese officials have ignored their requests to attend a forum on the city's electoral reforms.

One of the legislators, Frederick Fung, said he was "disappointed" not to be invited to the meeting between Qiao Xiaoyang, deputy secretary general of China's parliament, mainland officials and local delegates.

The 22 democrats from the former British colony said they had asked for invitations to the two-day meeting, which opened Wednesday just over the border in Shenzhen, but received no response.

Qiao said he had received a letter from the Hong Kong politicians but it was too late to fit them into his already full diary.

"I have only received (their requests) when I arrived yesterday afternoon and it's now too rushed to have them at the forum," Qiao told Cable TV in Shenzhen.

"We have opened the door for public opinions. Representatives from different sectors are coming and I'm sure they would be able to reflect (the democrats') views," said Qiao.

However, Fung said: "We are very disappointed for not being invited. It's not too rushed to have us in tomorrow's meeting. Only last week, (Qiao) said we need communications.

"I don't think they are very serious about it. I feel that the relationship between Hong Kong and China has gone backward."


According to pro-Beijing newspaper Wen Wei Po, up to 80 academics, businessmen and representatives from 10 different sectors of Hong Kong were invited to attend the second day of the forum Thursday.


The forum comes ahead of the April 25-26 meeting of the National People's Congress Standing Committee, China's top legislative body, which ruled earlier this month that it had the final say on political reform in Hong Kong.

The committee will discuss a report submitted by the city's Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa last Thursday, which recommended "gradual" electoral change but imposed nine conditions on any reforms which analysts said would make universal suffrage in 2007 and 2008 almost impossible.

Speaking to reporters in Shenzhen, Qiao refused to comment on whether universal suffrage by 2007 would be allowed.

[J-10]

uhhh j-10 who r u? U sound like an official mouthpiece for the Chinese government.....


I am young man of 27-year-old and working in a pravite comany in Beijing. I have some friends from U.S.A., Germany, UK, and Turkey. I knew them in working or in Bars. I don't think my brain have too much different to these people.

In fact, everyone are free to do anything in normal in China. You could ask any American who had been to China in these years to prove what I said. The level of freedom and democracy is much lower than U.S.A. but you know how long(more than 2,000 years) the history of autocracy feudalism(not only the C.P. in before) in China, so that people need a longer time to get used to the "new" democracy progress. The huge wheels already moved slowly, will go forward fast and fast, not stop.

The radical way of promoting democracy is not good in China, I think.

[J-10]

Hi, ronin2172 and Ghostwolf: :D

I am glad to discuss with you, you are all polite and reason.

But it is too later, 1:14am Apr. 23, 2004. haha, :lol: See you tomorrow.