Czech Murders of Germans after the war!

[Hessian]

I came a cross this sight and was shocked by what I read, there is more available than you have time to read. I spoke to a old Czech fellow here at the local deli and he confirmed that he saw German woman and children murdered when he was 15 in Prag.

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/sginferno/sgi06.html

All of this is very sad and points a nasty finger at the Czech's.

[alfigel]

I came a cross this sight and was shocked by what I read, there is more available than you have time to read. I spoke to a old Czech fellow here at the local deli and he confirmed that he saw German woman and children murdered when he was 15 in Prag.

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/sginferno/sgi06.html

All of this is very sad and points a nasty finger at the Czech's.

The expulsion of the Sudeten Germans out of Czechoslovakia from May to December 1945 is very often used to relativize the crimes of the Nazi regime that happened in the years before. And coincidentally, "wintersonnenwende.com" is a well-known war-justifying and Holocaust-denying Nazi website.

[Indiana Jones]

While estimates vary, a minimum of 14 million ethnic Germans were expulsed from their homes in the Eastern provinces or chose to flee more or rather less voluntarily from late 1944-1950. Of those, at least 2 millions were killed. From 1944 to 1946, the Soviets annexed Polish territory in the East which constituted 43% of the landmass of the former 2nd Republic and displaced in excess of 1,2 million Poles in the process, who then mostly settled in the formerly German territory. Combined, this was the greatest ethnic cleansing in recorded history.

All of this is very sad and points a nasty finger at the Czech's.
No single nation as a whole splattered itself with glory during and after the second world war. There are several pogroms reported during the closing stages and immediatly after the war, for example in Ústí nad Labem (then Aussig an der Elbe), Brno, and elsewhere.

[TheSun_CZ]

This might sound hard but I really don't mind if our people killed some germans after the war. Why? Because, like it or not, most of them wasn't any better, sometimes even worse. Germans killed almost half of my town since a lot of judes lived here.

It's really funny how all these websites an organisations cry about these incidents. I guess that nobody of them really talked to somebody whos whole family died in concentration camps (not me, fortunately). I they'd did so, they wouldn't be really so active because the real crimes happened in the war.
I once talked to my grandmother about germans (civis) in czechoslovakia once germans sized our land. She told me that even their neighbours and friends untill then, (which had german parents or have been germans) started to ignore, inform against and become all happy when they could heil and offend czechs.

So if you really look at this from the point of czechs that had to live in this **** ( and that's what it was) it's not so scandalizing...but it will probably always look different from the outside....

[Thor]

This might sound hard but I really don't mind if our people killed some germans after the war.
So using the same logic I guess it would be ok for the germans to come back now and kill 1.6 million czechs (2-0.4)?

You're a retard.

[Indiana Jones]

@ Sun: Great attitude there, son. You're the man. They all had it coming, every last one them. Let God sort 'em out. :roll:
@Thor: The 2 million figure is the estimated total for German civilian dead during the cleansing. The figures for the Sudetenland are difficult to establish-according to the Czech-German History Comission, they certainly do not surpass 30 000 killed, although you will find figures of up to 270 000 dead in the older literature.

[Thor]

Great attitude there, son. They all had it coming, every last one them. Let God sort 'em out. :roll:
Retard x2

It's beyond my understanding how anyone can promote war crimes/genocide.

[Labud]

Those revenge killing didn't happened only in Czech Republic, but in all countries which was occupied by the Germans and their allies, especialy in those where nazists were more cruel to the people (Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, USSR, and Czechoslovakia).

[Indiana Jones]

Retard x2

Are we being overly eager, Thor ? Read again, carefully, please. Blue on blue.

[theholeinthedonut]

The expulsion of the Sudeten Germans out of Czechoslovakia from May to December 1945 is very often used to relativize the crimes of the Nazi regime that happened in the years before. And coincidentally, "wintersonnenwende.com" is a well-known war-justifying and Holocaust-denying Nazi website.

X3
Quoted for truth

Nonetheless there have been atrocities in all the countries occupied by the Nazis, many of the victims were completely innocent and much of the violence was completely unwarranted.
I guess that's in the nature of war and something very difficult to avoid.
Alltough all this might sound very relativistic and primitive, I 'm afraid that war crimes are part of war and you can't have one witout the other.
In the end it will allways be the winning side that organizes war tribunals and decides on what was right or wrong.

[Smok]

Killing people is always bad. But remember what Germans did during WW2. It is normal, that when WW2 was over people wanted to make some reaction - revenge. It is bad, but very, very normal. People who lost their families could take guns and punish "German masters". Normal reaction.

[MOSTEAKA]

X3
Quoted for truth

Nonetheless there have been atrocities in all the countries occupied by the Nazis, many of the victims were completely innocent and much of the violence was completely unwarranted.
I guess that's in the nature of war and something very difficult to avoid.
Alltough all this might sound very relativistic and primitive, I 'm afraid that war crimes are part of war and you can't have one witout the other.
In the end it will allways be the winning side that organizes war tribunals and decides on what was right or wrong.

Very true...

[theholeinthedonut]

Killing people is always bad. But remember what Germans did during WW2. It is normal, that when WW2 was over people wanted to make some reaction - revenge. It is bad, but very, very normal. People who lost their families could take guns and punish "German masters". Normal reaction.

Don't get me wrong here, i don't want to be judgemental. I agree with what you say but there are still some nuances.

[Kitsune]

As Indiana Jones pointed out, after WWII 14 to 15 million Germans were expelled out of Eastern Europe because of their ethnicity, by Poles, Czechs and Russians. The estimates how many were killed vary, but the lowest says 1.1 million, the highest 3 million and the usually mentioned middle ground is two million. And just for Guinness Book of Records - this is technically the largest ethnic cleansing of recent history. Committed on the Germans, not by them.

These are not disputed facts or something. But what is shocking is how few people know them, even in Germany, let alone worldwide. Everyone is first to point an accusing finger against Germans ("the Nazis"). And everyone knows about the 6 million Jews that have been killed (with all the documentaries, movies and books about it, one can hardly miss it after all.) But that millions of Germans have been killed, civilians, women and children, even after the war when no one can claim the necessity of it because of self defense or whatever - that is virtually unknown. Even more, if we Germans would make any move to commemorate those victims, protests would arise. A British journalists commented about the massive ethnic cleansing of the Germans from Eastern Europe (a region where they had lived for hundreds of years and which they had culturally influenced a lot) after WWII with the phrase "fair is fair" (what is so "fair" about killing one or two million civilians, I wonder) and was eveb allowed this opinion in a German magazine (the well known "Spiegel"). And a Czech on this forum openly delcared he wouldn't mind about Germans being killed and not regret it a bit.

Well, well. But we Germans are supposed to swallow all that and to continue to express our eternal sorrow about our eternal guilt...up to eternity. That demand may prove a bit too much in the long run. One sided justice isn't justice, after all.

[minimus]

So Kitsune, please remind us all: Who started the war?? Who committed first atrocities?

[Indiana Jones]

dfhapdifhfipa

[gilgoul]

And we get **** for kicking 300 000 arabs out? :)

BTW, so what?
Like the Germans at the time didn't deport, murder, looted and abused millions of people, plunging the whole freakin world in the most murderous world war?
Give me a break and let me cry for something else.
The card have been reshuffled in Europe?

There was jealousy too? Some good real estate opportunities?
Well, I don't want to belittle the suffering of the German people of those years, but excuse me if I lack a little bit of empathy.

Since, there is no issue over the Sudeten nor over Gdansk, it seems that ethnic cleansing is a good peace tool in the long term after all (this is a sarcasm : notice for the understanding handicapped)

[Pvt.Anderson]

So using the same logic I guess it would be ok for the germans to come back now and kill 1.6 million czechs (2-0.4)?

You're a retard.

As you have stated correctly he is indeed a retard . Well people , get over it but the german people or at least most of them (leaving out the neo nazi pricks and all) have learned from history and are still ashamed about what happend and most probably will be for eternity (as kitsune mentioned) . But you think you can justify those genocides because you haven't been the original aggressor of the conflict . Very weak attitude you've got there ,now YOU should be the one ashamed ; we're living in the 21st century

EDIT

And we get **** for kicking 300 000 arabs out? :)

BTW, so what?
Like the Germans at the time didn't deport, murder, looted and abused millions of people, plunging the whole freakin world in the most murderous world war?
Give me a break and let me cry for something else.
The card have been reshuffled in Europe?

There was jealousy too? Some good real estate opportunities?
Well, I don't want to belittle the suffering of the German people of those years, but excuse me if I lack a little bit of empathy.

Since, there is no issue over the Sudeten nor over Gdansk, it seems that ethnic cleansing is a good peace tool in the long term after all (this is a sarcasm : notice for the understanding handicapped)

Yes yes you jews like to swing the blame club ,your justification is also weak - it is legitimate to murder innocent people because the others have killed innocent people as well ; I am still searching for the sarcasm in this sentence of yours

@ "And we get **** blah ,the palestinians are partly to understand since you threw them out of their homeland they've been living in for several hundred hears since the state of isreal has been founded not even 60 years ago in 1948 . But obviously you are always the victims and therefor your actions are always legitimate

[Kitsune]

@minimus:

The orgins of WWII are a bit more complex than the common myth about the evil Germans starting it alone without anyone else having anything to do with it suggests. Britain, France, Poland and especially the Sovietunion were all involved in it. As far as the German people are concerned, the overwhelming majority of them did not want a war. Most of them fought in the belief to defend their homecountry.

About the question who committed the first astrocity - well it is quite possible that it have been Germans. But even while German troops were advancing into Poland, at least a thousand German civilians living there were massacred by their Polish neighbours as an act of preemptive revenge, so it could have also been somone else who committed the first massacre. Who can say?
But isn't it an equally interesting question to ask who committed the last massacre on helpless civilians? And that this could have been very much done by people who now since decades claim to be a mix innocent victims and heroes fighting evil? And shouldn't that at least noticed by the world?



@gilgoul:

Yes, as you so aptly remark, the aftermarth of WWII could be seen as a proof that ethnic cleansing indeed works. There are those people who may say that nothing good could ever out of a gruesome crime of that size. But apparently they are mistaken. If one considers the situation in Europe of today as a good thing that is. But you are not the first to notice this. Ralph Peter's article "Blood Borders" comes to mind. And what also comes to my mind is a quote of a famous historian who said that the most important thing we learn out of history is that humans do not learn out of history.

[2RHPZ]

Although I rarerely engaged such a topic, I feel obligated, as a Czech, to contribute a bit on this forum.

According to the latest (and in the long run) survey, majority of Czechs (97%) approved the expelling of Germans from Sudettenland. I belong rather to the second part (minority) of our nation because I do not like "collective responsibility" term. Despite that I do not dare to judge our ancestors because I simply cannot fully understand their feelings and inducements. Of course, I can apply my own life experiences on that but those are mostly gathered from the point of view of a soldier among suffering people (Balkan, Iraq and other war areas). I have lack of many other stimuluses, created by the madness of world war and its consequenses.

I was once physically attacked due to my opinion that was the very first modern (1945+) ethnic cleasing in Europe. I do not mind, I still stand on this issue. Such a brutal way has no place in Europe and we must to do all we can to prevent it in the future.

The time, when we have to face this stain on our reputation, will come sooner or later, but it comes surely. I will feel very good if we resolve it in civilized manners.

And one more thing. I do not like the equation: Sudettenland = Kosovo = Palestina = Chechnya. That is odd. Each conflicts has its own background and different conditions, let alone the goals.

[Lokos]

Combined, this was the greatest ethnic cleansing in recorded history

No.

That would be the 20 million odd Soviet citizens who fled the German advance in 1941 all across the Soviet Union (the Baltic States, the Polish frontier, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia).

Lokos

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

Killing people is always bad. But remember what Germans did during WW2. It is normal, that when WW2 was over people wanted to make some reaction - revenge. It is bad, but very, very normal. People who lost their families could take guns and punish "German masters". Normal reaction.

exactly.......

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

I came a cross this sight and was shocked by what I read, there is more available than you have time to read. I spoke to a old Czech fellow here at the local deli and he confirmed that he saw German woman and children murdered when he was 15 in Prag.

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/sginferno/sgi06.html

All of this is very sad and points a nasty finger at the Czech's.


:cantbeli:only one big sudeten german lie. Name "sudeten" is 100x repated lie...

[TheSun_CZ]

And a Czech on this forum openly delcared he wouldn't mind about Germans being killed and not regret it a bit.


Well I'm sory if you took it like i wouldn't mind ANY Germans being killed. I was talking only about those in sudeten and those who betrayed even their own families (and trust me there was A LOT of such people). Again as someone said, killings after war are sad, but "normal" part of it.

And one note: What most people don't know, when germans seized sudeten many czechs lost their homes because the germans just simply took their homes from them. So, the question is...what were they expecting to happen especially if they saw that the war is already lost? They could have always go back to Germany, I'm sorry to say that but it was partly their mistake to stay in land where nobody wanted them.

[hauptman]

Both is a crime (German murders and Czech murders) and should be punished in a suitable way. Nothing more to say.

[paku]

@minimus:

The orgins of WWII are a bit more complex than the common myth about the evil Germans starting it alone without anyone else having anything to do with it suggests. Britain, France, Poland and especially the Sovietunion were all involved in it. As far as the German people are concerned, the overwhelming majority of them did not want a war. Most of them fought in the belief to defend their homecountry.

About the question who committed the first astrocity - well it is quite possible that it have been Germans. But even while German troops were advancing into Poland, at least a thousand German civilians living there were massacred by their Polish neighbours as an act of preemptive revenge, so it could have also been somone else who committed the first massacre. Who can say?
But isn't it an equally interesting question to ask who committed the last massacre on helpless civilians? And that this could have been very much done by people who now since decades claim to be a mix innocent victims and heroes fighting evil? And shouldn't that at least noticed by the world?


How puny mind you must have to fall victim of Goebbels propaganda 60 years after war ended. :cantbeli:

[Shadow]

Czechs killing German is just as bad as a German killing some other human being.
Accept it and grow a ****.

All this *mimimiimi* but the Germans started balbalbalaba Mimimi wäwäwäw
is just childish

[Indiana Jones]

How puny mind you must have to fall victim of Goebbels propaganda 60 years after war ended. :cantbeli:
Will you care to elaborate ?
As a matter of fact, according to Swedish Red Cross eyewitnesses, a minimum of thousand Germans were killed during what later became known as the "Bromberger Blutsonntag". This was accompanied by other Pogroms in Poland. Goebbels did indeed inflate the total numbers of killed to 55 000, while 3841 were confirmed, see de Zayas. However, since the records are incomplete, the total number of victims has been estimated to range from 4500-5000.

They could have always go back to Germany, I'm sorry to say that but it was partly their mistake to stay in land where nobody wanted them.
Gone back to Germany ? The Sudetenland in particular was an area of German settlement since the middle ages.

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

Gone back to Germany ? The Sudetenland in particular was an area of German settlement since the middle ages.

damn..
I m glad its our now. It would be very uncool to live in abridged protectorate.
Many germans died after war but nazi Germany was enemy regime in that time so obviously Czechs acted like it.

[Blumenteufel]

I´m fully on 10CRSDER´s side on that topic.

Put short, we Germans ****ed up badly but we did and keep on saying that we are sorry for what we did. I as a patriot can allow myself to take pride in that since in my opinion it takes a lot to stand up for the wrongs you did. The german public could simply have shoved the issue under the carpet as much as possible but it didn´t. In the contrary I doubt there are few countries who are giving themselves such a hard time with their own history.

I´m always pretty quick to click away those websites from, or influenced by, the far right. It´s just nationalist one sided jibberish. The fact that a lot of germans were expelled under often inhumane treatment still stands and all I would like to see is the admittance that it did happen and was a wrong. All in all we are talking about freaking civillians and families who were expelled from their homes by force and it doesn´t matter who did it, what counts is that it shouldn´t have happened and should never happen again.

Maybe someone here has read "The Armchair Generals Guide to Europe". I did when I was on vacation in Ireland and the book makes a actually pretty good proposal. For all the **** Europeans did to each other during the last centuries, the should be two Europe-wide holidays: The "We are sorry day" and the "we forgive you day". How about that? If you look at your own countries military history, I doubt no one can take the moral high ground through all of it.


As I said this issue should be debated in a civil manner and then we could get a Euro-Party going.

http://www.iserlohn.de/Stadtportraet/Partnerstaedte/europaflagge.jpg

[perdurabo]

Will you care to elaborate ?
As a matter of fact, according to Swedish Red Cross eyewitnesses, a minimum of thousand Germans were killed during what later became known as the "Bromberger Blutsonntag". This was accompanied by other Pogroms in Poland. Goebbels did indeed inflate the total numbers of killed to 55 000, while 3841 were confirmed, see de Zayas. However, since the records are incomplete, the total number of victims has been estimated to range from 4500-5000.

Gone back to Germany ? The Sudetenland in particular was an area of German settlement since the middle ages.
1. Our big German minority at that time was shooting at our soldiers going to front so if any killings happened, we are sorry if they where inocent but if they where traitors you know what is normally done to traitors at time of war...
2. "Sudetenland" was under slavic settelments from VI th century, moust of the older cities in Sudety and Silesia where build by Czechs or Poles

Blumenteufel 100% agreed!

[minimus]

I´m fully on 10CRSDER´s side on that topic.

Put short, we Germans ****ed up badly but we did and keep on saying that we are sorry for what we did. I as a patriot can allow myself to take pride in that since in my opinion it takes a lot to stand up for the wrongs you did. The german public could simply have shoved the issue under the carpet as much as possible but it didn´t. In the contrary I doubt there are few countries who are giving themselves such a hard time with their own history.

I´m always pretty quick to click away those websites from, or influenced by, the far right. It´s just nationalist one sided jibberish. The fact that a lot of germans were expelled under often inhumane treatment still stands and all I would like to see is the admittance that it did happen and was a wrong. All in all we are talking about freaking civillians and families who were expelled from their homes by force and it doesn´t matter who did it, what counts is that it shouldn´t have happened and should never happen again.

Maybe someone here has read "The Armchair Generals Guide to Europe". I did when I was on vacation in Ireland and the book makes a actually pretty good proposal. For all the **** Europeans did to each other during the last centuries, the should be two Europe-wide holidays: The "We are sorry day" and the "we forgive you day". How about that? If you look at your own countries military history, I doubt no one can take the moral high ground through all of it.


As I said this issue should be debated in a civil manner and then we could get a Euro-Party going.

http://www.iserlohn.de/Stadtportraet/Partnerstaedte/europaflagge.jpg

Nice one! I really mean it :-)
However:
Of course expelling civilians was wrong, especially if it was done brutally, but it did not happen out of the blue. It was a DIRECT result of the war often supported by those very ppl.
Wasn't this issue stirred up in Germany by Germans only recently? Whats the purpose?

[Indiana Jones]

1. Our big German minority at that time was shooting at our soldiers going to front so if any killings happened, we are sorry if they where inocent but if they where traitors you know what is normally done to traitors at time of war...
2. "Sudetenland" was under slavic settelments from VI th century, moust of the older cities in Sudety and Silesia where build by Czechs or Poles

Blumenteufel 100% agreed!
1. The IPN has claimed repeatedly that shots were fired at Polish soldiers in Bydgoszcz (Bromberg) during the timeframe in question by supposed German intelligence operatives of the Abwehr. There is no substantial evidence, archival or else, to support this conclusion. The IPNs reputation has suffered massively in consequence. It is however out of the question that shots were indeed fired in Bromberg. Elements of the Polish army were retreating in disorderly fashion throughout the city. Amidst this highly charged setting the massacre took place. In the defence of the Polish soldiers it can be argued that:
A: They had been made to believe that a German 5th column had been formed, and thus suffered from franctireur-phobia, not unlike the German troops 1914 in Belgium. ( Even though that has been dramatically blown out of proportion by Allied wartime propaganda)
B: Were in a state of general confusion following the initial debacle at the borders.
It furthermore has to be taken into account that this was hardly an isolated incident and had countless precedents during the interwar period. More than a million Germans were forced to leave their homes in the East following the treaty of Versailles. Of course, similar atrocities were by no means the prerogative of the Poles. Mutual racist hatred manifesting itself in killings, looting, raids etc. was quite widespread among both Germans and Poles, as well as the Czechs.
2. Certainly. However, the vast majority of the Sudetenlands population which originally was in question here was of German origin.

[Blumenteufel]

Nice one! I really mean it :-)
However:
Of course expelling civilians was wrong, especially if it was done brutally, but it did not happen out of the blue. It was a DIRECT result of the war often supported by those very ppl.
Wasn't this issue stirred up in Germany by Germans only recently? Whats the purpose?

Glad to hear that, and I mean it, too :-]

No one denies that the reactions are not understandable due to all the suffering that was caused by us germans. The only thing that would be nice is to admit that it was a bad thing so that people can move on.

The saddest thing in my opinion is the tremendous ammount of culture lost on both sides. The topic is about the Sudeten Germans, a german "tribe" whose culture is mostly extinct.
A while ago I´ve seen a documentary about a mid aged Pole living in Gdansk who started to become interested in the german history the town had which could be seen in many places. And even if it´s now Polish, it has a common history influenced by both nationalities.

That issue was "stirred up" by a minor group who wanted the land back they were expelled from. They however don´t have support among the public and the government was quick to distance itself from that group´s claims. Such claims won´t be supported since prior to our unification, we accepted the Oder River as factual border between Poland and Germany.

[Indiana Jones]

Blumenteufel about sums it up. The Germans know that their land is lost, in all likelihood forever. All but a tiny minority do not want to reclaim it, mostly because it is too late and could not be done without more injustice or violence. It would still greatly contribute to the normalization of the German-Czech as well as German-Polish relationships if it could be officially acknowledged that the former German residents were wronged. This does in no way diminish the respective Polish or Czech suffering at the hands of the Germans.
Given that the hatchet has been buried between the "hereditary enemies" Germany and France I do not see why a similar development should not take place here.

[paku]

1. The IPN has claimed repeatedly that shots were fired at Polish soldiers in Bydgoszcz (Bromberg) during the timeframe in question by supposed German intelligence operatives of the Abwehr. There is no substantial evidence, archival or else, to support this conclusion. The IPNs reputation has suffered massively in consequence. It is however out of the question that shots were indeed fired in Bromberg. Elements of the Polish army were retreating in disorderly fashion throughout the city. Amidst this highly charged setting the massacre took place. In the defence of the Polish soldiers it can be argued that:
A: They had been made to believe that a German 5th column had been formed, and thus suffered from franctireur-phobia, not unlike the German troops 1914 in Belgium. ( Even though that has been dramatically blown out of proportion by Allied wartime propaganda)
B: Were in a state of general confusion following the initial debacle at the borders.

I'm somehow much more inclined to believe IPN (which has proven it's impartiality on numerous occasions), than some unspecified source, in fact you are not providing one at all. You are saying that "it is out of question" that German paramilitaries were attacking retreating Poles. How are you so sure? Because you want it to be that way?
I'm not saying that I don't belive some innocent Germans were getting hurt on the way of retreating military, I'm sure there were those singular cases, however they were never mass killings like some of people here are trying to prove for whatever reason.
And that (http://www.wintersonnenwende.com) site is got to be one of the most disgusting pages I've ever seen on internet. I would need much more credible source than that to even start considering taking these kind of claims seriously.

[Rumcajs]

hey hessian, if you want to post some material about murdering the Germans in the Czechlands after 1945 you musn´t lift the events from context. When you want to create a thread as this, so you must to start with description of murdering the Czech civilians and attacks against Czech policemen by the Germans members and voters of nazistic Sudetendeutsche Partai, members of illegal nazistic Freikorps and German agressive citizens in the Czech border areas since 1937. Furthermore you must include murdering the Czech people (women, children, old men as well) after occupation of Czech border areas after Munich dictate during bestial forcing out from their own country by German civilians (sic!!! Munich dictate didn´t say nothing about forcing out, only about seizing the area), not soldiers or SS units.

Furthermore you must include info about murdering after 15.3. 1939, after occupation of whole the Czechlands area. This murdering was continual and planed as "The final solution of the Czech question". In the frame of "the final solution" you must warn of special wave of murdering after 28.10. 1939, after silent protest against occupation in the day of Czechoslovak state anniversary. I am sure that you don´t anything about reason, why the Student´s international day is celebrate on 17th November in whole World, you know nothing about Jan Opletal and murdering Czech university students.

Furthermore you must include increased brutal terror against Czech civilians after 27.5.1942 during a martial law and you must note the name Lidice and Ležáky - small town and village where nazis of wehrmacht and SS murdered all men, children and women sent to death camps, town and village burned down totally.

More, you must besides note bestial SS and wehrmacht murdering in May 1945 during Prague´s Uprising. "Soldiers" of wehrmacht and members of SS (so the reason what I called them swi...nes in other thread for, because their behaving in Prague was bestial) murdered thousands civilians in Prague and Přerov town as "the tactics" in the fight against Czech resistance. Typical way was taking civilians in front of tanks and "soldiers" as live shields against barricades, murdering civilians as extording resistence figters for the fighter surrendering, or murdering inhabitans of whole houses as retaliation for killed German "soldier" in regular fight in bestial way (unpicked bodies with bayonets,to gauge eyes out, murdering children, pregnant women etc)

After including these and more crimes (what are in documents of Norimberg trial as well) after that you can start to relate the murdering German civilians during the first (wild) transports to Germany in summer 1945 (not during legal transports later) mainly by Czech civilians. This murdering was LOGICAL result of the German behaving in the Czechlands since 1918.

If you want to evaluate a historical problem or event you cannot do it as a beer tasting and taste valuing. The historical science has exact rules. Firstly is heuristics - to search the historical resources, secondly comparatistics - to compare historical resources and evaluating their relevance and veracity. Thirdly serious interpretation oh historical facts on the relevant historical resources without lifting from context. If you want to interpret historical facts seriously, you must take a look at events of that time, not the view of our today time with false moral or other feeling of superiority - it has even special term: "ahistorism". You can hear this base proposition in the first lecture in every history college anywhere (I have heard that as well). So on the base of the difference between these looks we can recognize a dilettante and expert in historiography (historical science).

Btw, the Germans civilians murdered during the the first transports in summer 1945 from the Czechlands were mainly the members of nazistic Sudetendeutsche Partai and its active voters. Democratic German citizens of Czechoslovakia were murdered or arrested by nazistic offices, what got admit to come in Czechoslovakia by these German civilians, already after 30.9. 1938 and after 15.3. 1939. These Germans civilians were murdered by the same Czechs, who were forced out and whom relatives were murdered by these Germans in Czech border areas seven yeas ago. It´s historical fact that about 75% Germans voted nazistic Sudetendeutsche Partai the last election before war in 1935.

About something as "Sudetenland". It´s a typical nazistic lie. The Sudety is very old Celtic name from the age of Celtic tribe what lived on Czech historical area (before the 6th century, in the 6th century the first Slavs came to the Czech area). The old Latin name for Czech area and state is "Bohemia" what came from the name of the Celtic tribe - Boemos/Boemes/Bohémes. "Sudety" means the "forest of boars" and the Czechlands have been always typical by large border forests. There is the question about range of the Sudety area. Some historian says that it´s mountain areas from Jizerské hory in the Czechlands to the Carpathians in Romania (white colour), the others say it´s only the area of nothern mountains from Jizerské hory to Beskydy in the Czechlands (red colour). Anyway Sudetenland was used by nazis only in the 30s of the 20th century for whole the Czech border areas as "the historical German land" even the south an western parts of the Czechlands. It´s intereisting, because you cannot to find this word in any German serious literature or documents before the start of the 30s of the 20th century.
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6513/centraleuropemapcawebrb1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


About the Germans in the Czechlands, you "expert" indiana jones. The first Germans came in the Czech Kingdom in the 13th century for the request of Czech King Přemysl Otakar I. as mining experts to establish mining settlement and small town as the opposition of the Czech noblemen properties and their political influence in the Nothern Moravia and the Czech Silesia (the first was Bruntál town in 1213). But these Germans were only a few and very soon they assimilated and historical sources knows nothing about some "German minority". Only the Germans, what we have info about, are from the 15th century when they were killed or forced out by Hussites during Hussite´s wars, but not as the Germans but as rich Catholic merchant in big Czech towns as Prague or Kutná Hora etc in central parts of the Czech Kingdom. we know even some their names and they were only a few persons not a minority.

Ancestors of the Germans in Czech border areas of the first half of the 20th century came in the Czechlands only in 17th century after the Czech Noblemen´s Uprising defeat in the 20s and after "30years war". There Germans got or bought for easy money properties and landed estates robbed by Catholic Habsburg´s family clan from the Czech noblemen and people of Lutheran, Utrakvist and Hussite religion (simply protestants) who had to run away from their country to western protestant Europe or else to be arrested or executed as 27 the most important Czech protestant noblemen in Prague 21.6. 1621. So these Germans started to live with robbed properties in the Czechlands. The majority of the descendant of these Germans didn´t want Czechoslovakia in 1918, they didn´t want to be minority in the Czech State, but in the 20s a lot of them worked for Czechoslovakia because they have hight level of living conditions and their rights as national minority were better than even of some minorities in Germany right now, though the feeling of "German blood" and nazistic propaganda were stronger than wisdom in the 1930s!!! Czechoslovak state even subscribed to border areas to the exclusion of central parts (without German minority) of Czechoslovakia!!! Then Czechoslovak politics releted to German and Hungarian minorities can be compared with today EU politics (but not to the Gipsies, but it´s other cause).

But the majority of Germans didn´t want to be Czechoslovak citizens and did for that a lot of in the 30s. They screamed "back to the Emripe" (it ment to Third Empire), so the Czechs allowed the wish after WW2 with the help of Allies, and the Germans went home after 3 centuries long visit. When the Germans wouldn´t start the murdering and persecution, the devastation of Czech state (even Habsburgs dind´t devastate the Czech state, because it was one of the three Habsbusrg Monarchy parts with own government and land parlament and they ruled in the Czech Kingdom as the Czech King officially) they could live here with us up to the date even with actually robbed properties.

So if you want to write or relete about murders, you must start with the German murders...

Anyway I recognize the Germans and the nazis strictly, it´s not the same for me, as well as the Russians and boshevics are two different items for me as well.

only one example, some photos from Lidice, 10.6. 1942
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/7641/lidice1dk3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/5753/lidice1mih4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/6366/lidice2xu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5889/lidice2asl4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/584/lidice3clg8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5467/lidice1lj7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/4836/lidicepj1.gif (http://imageshack.us)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/1846/lidicecy7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/8238/lidicemassacredmenks1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5861/lidiceljlgu4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[cbreedon]

Well, well. But we Germans are supposed to swallow all that and to continue to express our eternal sorrow about our eternal guilt...up to eternity. That demand may prove a bit too much in the long run. One sided justice isn't justice, after all.

You could always show them who is really boss.... a few panzer divisions in Prague and Warsaw would do the job.... maybe even Koenigsburg

In the end with new Europe, I would think that families of German expellees could just buy back their houses. Is there anything to stop this?

[Anty komuch]

So true Rumcajs so true ...

[Indiana Jones]

Really, why should I bother.

[Blumenteufel]

Really, why should I bother.

I guess we´re thinking the same, thanks for your contribution.

[Pvt.Anderson]

I´m fully on 10CRSDER´s side on that topic.

Put short, we Germans ****ed up badly but we did and keep on saying that we are sorry for what we did. I as a patriot can allow myself to take pride in that since in my opinion it takes a lot to stand up for the wrongs you did. The german public could simply have shoved the issue under the carpet as much as possible but it didn´t. In the contrary I doubt there are few countries who are giving themselves such a hard time with their own history.

I´m always pretty quick to click away those websites from, or influenced by, the far right. It´s just nationalist one sided jibberish. The fact that a lot of germans were expelled under often inhumane treatment still stands and all I would like to see is the admittance that it did happen and was a wrong. All in all we are talking about freaking civillians and families who were expelled from their homes by force and it doesn´t matter who did it, what counts is that it shouldn´t have happened and should never happen again.

Maybe someone here has read "The Armchair Generals Guide to Europe". I did when I was on vacation in Ireland and the book makes a actually pretty good proposal. For all the **** Europeans did to each other during the last centuries, the should be two Europe-wide holidays: The "We are sorry day" and the "we forgive you day". How about that? If you look at your own countries military history, I doubt no one can take the moral high ground through all of it.


As I said this issue should be debated in a civil manner and then we could get a Euro-Party going.

http://www.iserlohn.de/Stadtportraet/Partnerstaedte/europaflagge.jpg

brilliant one ,i agree 100%

somebody has come up with "they could have gone back to germany anytime" ; i must say this argument is BULL ****e ,first of all it was a german region back then ,second it was their homeland .Imagine a guy from Hamburg having to move away to dortmund since the danes occupied it . You can't equal one's homeland with a country

[Indiana Jones]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana Jones http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2265938#post2265938)
Really, why should I bother.


I guess we´re thinking the same, thanks for your contribution.
My pleasure Sir.
It appears the ultranationalist contemporaries of ours are crawling out of the woodwork again.
Some people have apparently been so enthralled by their pathological hatred that they will disregard or bend whatever fact not supporting their beliefs.
I take it as a positive sign that there have been various voices of moderation- on both sides. There is hope.

Post scriptum:
Rumcajs....a rather impressive amount of unadulterated, entirely unfactual, somewhat cryptic nonsense.

[Rumcajs]

My pleasure Sir.
It appears the ultranationalist contemporaries of ours are crawling out of the woodwork again.
Some people have apparently been so enthralled by their pathological hatred that they will disregard or bend whatever fact not supporting their beliefs.
I take it as a positive sign that there have been various voices of moderation- on both sides. There is hope.

Post scriptum:
Rumcajs....a rather impressive amount of unadulterated, entirely unfactual, somewhat cryptic nonsense.


I don´t care about your ivectives, if the true and historical facts are the symbol of extremism and nonsense for you it´s your problem, so it´s waste of time to post the sources and literature. I can increase my English skills as you said, and I do it, unfortunately you already cannot increase your intelligence quotient skills and ability to recognize relevant information in its context. Note the first who talking about extremism etc. is the first who haven´t arguments and education and in a lot of causes is extremist
(it´s nice that you have edited that invectives)

[gjl0102]

I was assigned border patrol duty along the FRG/Czech border in the late 70s. I worked with the "West German" agencies responsible for border security (BGS,BBP and Zoll) and I always found the animosity between the Germans and the Czechs along the fronter interesting, lots of history, and that animosity went far beyond the Warsaw Pact vs NATO dynamic.

[AKS]

This thread is interesting as it made me question my own past experiances.

When I was living in Cezch Republic, Czechs mostly wanted to be considered Germanic or be associate with Germany in one way or another. Now when I read this it is kind of surprising, since from what I learned in my years there is that Czechs did not like the Russians that much but now I see this new anti German wave.

Is this a new trend?

[2RHPZ]

I worked with the "West German" agencies responsible for border security (BGS,BBP and Zoll) and I always found the animosity between the Germans and the Czechs along the fronter interesting, lots of history, and that animosity went far beyond the Warsaw Pact vs NATO dynamic.

You hit the nail on the head. That´s the neglecting fact, the most important one, of that animosity you mentioned. In fact, (we) Czechs used to live under Germans since 1526. During that reign, indeed done with velvet gloves mostly, the worse character ever - hatred - entered our genom.

Anyway, Soviets used to look at us down during communist era. They distrusted us and their opinion was not too far away of the Heydrich´s one. Ie., we had no the same access to their modern military technologies as Poles and Hungarians did in WP. They say that Slavs are divided into three groups - Russians, others and then Czechs. And this is the result of German´s influence, that brings, according to me, many good things especially on the culture field.

[Ren987]

As Indiana Jones pointed out, after WWII 14 to 15 million Germans were expelled out of Eastern Europe because of their ethnicity, by Poles, Czechs and Russians. The estimates how many were killed vary, but the lowest says 1.1 million, the highest 3 million and the usually mentioned middle ground is two million. And just for Guinness Book of Records - this is technically the largest ethnic cleansing of recent history. Committed on the Germans, not by them.

These are not disputed facts or something. But what is shocking is how few people know them, even in Germany, let alone worldwide. Everyone is first to point an accusing finger against Germans ("the Nazis"). And everyone knows about the 6 million Jews that have been killed (with all the documentaries, movies and books about it, one can hardly miss it after all.) But that millions of Germans have been killed, civilians, women and children, even after the war when no one can claim the necessity of it because of self defense or whatever - that is virtually unknown. Even more, if we Germans would make any move to commemorate those victims, protests would arise. A British journalists commented about the massive ethnic cleansing of the Germans from Eastern Europe (a region where they had lived for hundreds of years and which they had culturally influenced a lot) after WWII with the phrase "fair is fair" (what is so "fair" about killing one or two million civilians, I wonder) and was eveb allowed this opinion in a German magazine (the well known "Spiegel"). And a Czech on this forum openly delcared he wouldn't mind about Germans being killed and not regret it a bit.

Well, well. But we Germans are supposed to swallow all that and to continue to express our eternal sorrow about our eternal guilt...up to eternity. That demand may prove a bit too much in the long run. One sided justice isn't justice, after all.

I don't understand how you can actually compare the methodical extermination of the jewish people and the giant expulsion of germans living in eastern europe. Sure there were acts of revenge and killing of germans after WWII but it seems the majority of those who died were the result of ill-prepared German evacuation and chaotic flight (see wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II)). And the vast majority of the germans under soviet occupation survived (though expelled).

I wouldn't mind if the Jews in Europe were allowed the same traitement by Nazi-germany as the germans were, in the eastern territories liberated by USSR.

During the Spanish Inquisition, at least, the Jews were given the choice between leaving, dying or converting to catholicism...

If similar steps were taken by nazi-germany, you wouldn't be there, wishing that the guilt of your forefathers would weaken in the long run (my apologies if your relatives were underground resistants).

[Danik]

Intersting thread.

Im aware that millions of Germans were expelled after WWII, I was told that the tensions on the border arent as bad as some of you have said, and that the current Czech occupants of the confiscated houses allow Germans to come visit and tend to their family cemeteries which at times are on the individual house properties.

[Nebelwerfer.]

When I was living in Cezch Republic, Czechs mostly wanted to be considered Germanic or be associate with Germany in one way or another.

Errrr....what? :| :cantbeli:


Is this a new trend?

No, it's not a 'new' trend. Have you overslept Rumcajs' post? Read it carefully.

[Rumcajs]

Intersting thread.

Im aware that millions of Germans were expelled after WWII, I was told that the tensions on the border arent as bad as some of you have said, and that the current Czech occupants of the confiscated houses allow Germans to come visit and tend to their family cemeteries which at times are on the individual house properties.


really? occupants in own country??? So My grandfather and grandmother have confiscated a former German house in 1946. I am proud of this fact, because when my paternts and relatives liquidated old equipment of the house we found very interesting photos. Smiled nazi man in SS uniform with sweet child and even sweeter wife. You can be sure that we gave the photos to Czech state office.

[Zerodivider]

Killing people is always bad. But remember what Germans did during WW2. It is normal, that when WW2 was over people wanted to make some reaction - revenge. It is bad, but very, very normal. People who lost their families could take guns and punish "German masters". Normal reaction.


So if my neighbour comes over and rapes and kills my daughter, it's okay for me to go over and rape and kill his?

[perdurabo]

They say that Slavs are divided into three groups - Russians, others and then Czechs.
nah You are our brothers, western Slavs.
BTW i have been born in Sudety in city of Jelenia Góra (ger. Hirshberg) and i very often visited Czech cities Harahov, Trutnov etc... for me Sudety is the moust beutifull place on earth.

[johanness]

So if my neighbour comes over and rapes and kills my daughter, it's okay for me to go over and rape and kill his?

No,naturally not...For chzechs and other slavic people equity is done when you rape and kill the neighours daughter,rape the mother,too and piss the father in the face.Then kill them all and burn the house.

Remember Yugoslavia?

[perdurabo]

No,naturally not...For chzechs and other slavic people equity is done when you rape and kill the neighours daughter,rape the mother,too and piss the father in the face.Then kill them all and burn the house.

Remember Yugoslavia?
And then you know why peaple hate Germans.

[johanness]

And then you know why peaple hate Germans.

Obviously you mean peeapple.

[Pvt.Anderson]

And then you know why peaple hate Germans.

oh come on you can whine as much as you want but isn't he partly right ? ( of course it is exaggerated )

you can not deny that ,still kids raised here in germany ,having an origin in former yugoslav countries are teached to hate each other , and most of them do . bosniaks saying they slice a serbian bastard's head off and so on

the poles are guests in many european police stations btw ,so much for the now you know why people hate germans crap

[Rumcajs]

No,naturally not...For chzechs and other slavic people equity is done when you rape and kill the neighours daughter,rape the mother,too and piss the father in the face.Then kill them all and burn the house.

Remember Yugoslavia?


No,naturally not...For chzechs

just significant




remeber Lidice, Ležáky and further towns an villages in Europe?
did you see photos from Lidice above? Do you want to see photos from the time when the Czechs were forced out from own country after 30.9. 1938 by geermmans neighbours???
just take a look at these authentic faces of children from Lidice (memorial in Lidice) murdered by the geermmans, and be quiet
http://www.kr-stredocesky.cz/data2/dep_22/Lidice_Uchytilova_pomnik_detskych_obeti_valky1.JPG

[Indiana Jones]

I'm somehow much more inclined to believe IPN (which has proven it's impartiality on numerous occasions), than some unspecified source, in fact you are not providing one at all. You are saying that "it is out of question" that German paramilitaries were attacking retreating Poles. How are you so sure? Because you want it to be that way?
I'm not saying that I don't belive some innocent Germans were getting hurt on the way of retreating military, I'm sure there were those singular cases, however they were never mass killings like some of people here are trying to prove for whatever reason.
And that (http://www.wintersonnenwende.com) site is got to be one of the most disgusting pages I've ever seen on internet. I would need much more credible source than that to even start considering taking these kind of claims seriously.
First off: In the case of Bromberg that is indeed out of the question. All casualties suffered by the SS, paramilitary formations, Brandenburger army special forces, etc. were reported via the normal channels and appear in the Heeresarzt ( Army medical services ) figures for Blutige Verluste. (literally bloody losses). Since there were several scuffles throughout Poland where similar formations were involved, and their losses meticulously reported, it is obvious that no such formations were present in Bromberg. There were also no decorations, wound badges etc. awarded that would indicate fighting on any scale.
The authoritative source on German "self-defence" units etc. is the following MFGA (Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt) publication:
Jansen, Christian u. Weckbecker, Arno: Eine Miliz im "Weltanschauungskrieg". Der "Volksdeutsche Selbstschutz" in Polen 1939/40. In: Wolfgang Michalka (Ed.) Der Zweite Weltkrieg - Analysen, Grundzüge, Forschungsbilanz. Munich, 1993.
Your formulation "that some got hurt" is an euphemism at best, and somewhat distateful if I may add. The total number of victims has been established by several sources and is waterproof.
See: Fischer, Hubert: Der deutsche Sanitätsdienst 1921-45, Vol. 1, Osnabrück 1982.
Eventual differences regarding the numbers of people killed in Bromberg itself arise from different methodology, that is, whether neighbouring parishes are included in the count or not. About a 1000 dead in Bromberg would be the middle ground.
The fact that these incidents were instrumentalised and beefed-up in German propaganda do not imply that they did not take place.

[johanness]

the geermmans




just significant

significant,too

[Indiana Jones]

Anderson+ Johaness:
You are not helping either. Do not resort to this kind of racist dribble. Please.

[Rumcajs]

significant,too

yes, after you and I made me to your level, man. (look above in my posts here)

[johanness]

Anderson+ Johaness:
You are not helping either. Do not resort to this kind of racist dribble. Please.

For me is's not about racism,it's about killing helpless civilians.
The butchers of Lidice,Oradour and all the other places should have be hanged the same way as the bastards who killed Germans civilians should be hanged.
War should be a job of men,not for cowards who kill civilians without protection.

[Godspeed]

There is no excuse to kill innocent civilians and POW´s if you do so you should ****ing hang!!!!!

[Pvt.Anderson]

well people ,seems like a proper discussion with rumcajs is impossible and nonsense ,he seems to be missing the point by force somehow .

[Danik]

really? occupants in own country??? So My grandfather and grandmother have confiscated a former German house in 1946. I am proud of this fact, because when my paternts and relatives liquidated old equipment of the house we found very interesting photos. Smiled nazi man in SS uniform with sweet child and even sweeter wife. You can be sure that we gave the photos to Czech state office.

Perhaps I should have rephrased that, I meant purchased/given. Was I misinformed about the Czechs allowing some German families to visit their old houses because sometimes they have family cemeteries on the property?

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

not all germans from Suddets vere innocent. It was after ww2, so people acted like it.
but killing innocents is filthy murder and should be punished
any further discussion is pointless

[Wodan]

I don´t see the point in this discussion... its a well known fact, everyone knows about the anti german genocid..


In Theresidenstadt concentration camp, which I visted some years ago with my school class, they clearly noticed that it has been renovated and enlarged post-WW2, to be filled with germans, so what?

They know what happend we know what happend, it was war, I don´t see the point in one side demanding reperations from the other, ... maybe in next war it will look different again.. who knows..

[daily666]

Reading this thread it came to me that most of the posters try to see the after-WWII situation throgh today's perespective. Yes it should be condemned that repressions and even killings occured, and killers should be punished, but you have to remember what people of Eastern Europe went through, during the war, thanks to Nazi IIIrd Reich. The Czechs were the first victims, while being sold by the western powers they lost the their soverignity and while being occupied they suffered a lot.

Also worth mentioning is that Communist propaganda, very active at that period, overused anti-German sentiment for it's own purposes so the people may have felt backed by the state officials. At least it's how it worked here.

It also must be said, that the movement of frontiers after the WWII done by USA/UK/USSR during their land deals also caused a lot of bad events. The People at that time, were really only tools of, than emerging, superpowers.

[Switek]

not all germans from Suddets vere innocent. It was after ww2, so people acted like it.
but killing innocents is filthy murder and should be punished
any further discussion is pointless

agree...

Such acts of individual or group violence against German civilians took place in many Eastern European countries just after WW@ wahtever happened all of them should be punished (in symbolic way) and condemned

But we will never forget German crimes made by uniformed or non uniformend Germans during World War 2

[johanness]

yes,sorry I forget...

-the brave resistance of the czech army
-their brave,but useless counterattacks by cavalary against superior german
tank forces ( one man without horse)
-the heroic defense of the czech airforce,downing 2 german aircrafts by
sending wrong landing markings

I was just joking!!!

Czech part of WWll was only happening after the fighting,against civilians.
Anyway,if you are czech,you would be proud of it.

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

yes,sorry I forget...

-the brave resistance of the czech army
-their brave,but useless counterattacks by cavalary against superior german
tank forces ( one man without horse)
-the heroic defense of the czech airforce,downing 2 german aircrafts by
sending wrong landing markings

I was just joking!!!

Czech part of WWll was only happening after the fighting,against civilians.
Anyway,if you are czech,you would be proud of it.

haha you re retard
You bet Im proud that I am Czech!

[jamaKinson]

yeeessss, those WWII threads are getting the best out of us Europeans. :roll:

Anyway, why that 'Hessian' guy started the thread and then disappeared?

I smell conspiracy!

[johanness]

yeeessss, those WWII threads are getting the best out of us Europeans. :roll:

Anyway, why that 'Hessian' guy started the thread and then disappeared?

I smell conspiracy!

I think you are right,jama

These 'hessian' was just a right wing proll ( maybe neo -nazi) ,who just want to provocate.

Anyway,there are still some wounds left in center europe,which have to be heal.Maybe in discussion like this we can find a way to be good neighbors.

[daily666]

I think you are right,jama

These 'hessian' was just a right wing proll ( maybe neo -nazi) ,who just want to provocate.

Anyway,there are still some wounds left in center europe,which have to be heal.Maybe in discussion like this we can find a way to be good neighbors.

We should start with a beer...

[cbreedon]

I think you are right,jama

These 'hessian' was just a right wing proll ( maybe neo -nazi) ,who just want to provocate.

Anyway,there are still some wounds left in center europe,which have to be heal.Maybe in discussion like this we can find a way to be good neighbors.

Bet you, he is an evil Bush loving American trying to get the Euros to fight amonst themselves... And not worry about Guantanamo... CIA Spies

[johanness]

We should start with a beer...

Agreed,antime you go near Baden-Baden send me a PM,we would have some
beer

johanness

[daily666]

Agreed,antime you go near Baden-Baden send me a PM,we would have some
beer

johanness

PM inbound :D

[johanness]

PM back to you :)

[Hessian]

yeeessss, those WWII threads are getting the best out of us Europeans. :roll:

Anyway, why that 'Hessian' guy started the thread and then disappeared?

I smell conspiracy!

No conspiracy just shocked at the comments made, not really sure how to respond to rude language and left over hate from WWII. I'm not sorry I started the thread just regret some of the feedback.

I don't think its helpful to say its ok because of what they did first... its not.

I think its a tragedy when people are murdered, more the children than anything. They are the victims of our hate and revenge. I find this event somehow interesting because I was able to talk to someone who was there and his comments caused me to search the internet for more information.

There is nothing more...

[Hessian]

I think you are right,jama

These 'hessian' was just a right wing proll ( maybe neo -nazi) ,who just want to provocate.

Anyway,there are still some wounds left in center europe,which have to be heal.Maybe in discussion like this we can find a way to be good neighbors.


Your accusation is unfair and untrue, please don't label me as you have. You don't know me nor have you taken the time to find my position or perspective.

[Musashi]

Anyway, Soviets used to look at us down during communist era. They distrusted us and their opinion was not too far away of the Heydrich´s one. Ie., we had no the same access to their modern military technologies as Poles and Hungarians did in WP.
BS!
Compare number of MiG-29s in Czechoslovakia (I don't know the exact number, but as after the division the Czechs had 10 remaining, the Slovaks still must have at least 6, so it makes 16) comparing to 12 Polish MiG-29s, 55 Polish BMP-2s, comparing to hundreds of Czechoslovak, just a bit bigger number of Polish T-72s than Czechoslovak T-72s and if you take into consideration Poland's population was 2,5 bigger that Czechoslovakia's one, you SHOULD come to conclusion saturation of modern equipment was much bigger in the Czechoslovak Army. The reason was very simple - that army was a frontline WP army. The core infantry fighting vehicle in the Czechoslovak Army was BMP-2 at the beginning of 90s, while it was BMP-1 in case of the Polish Army.


They say that Slavs are divided into three groups - Russians, others and then Czechs. And this is the result of German´s influence, that brings, according to me, many good things especially on the culture field.
Another Bull***
The Slavic nations are divided into:
1) Eastern Slavs:
- Russians,
- Ukrainians,
- Belorussians.
2) Western Slavs:
- Poles,
- Czechs,
- Slovaks.
3) Southern Slavs:
- Serbs,
- Croats,
- Slovenians,
- Montenegrins (some people say they are Serbs),
- Macedonians (they are said to be Bulgarians inhabiting Yugoslavia),
- Bosnians (but it's hard to consider them a separate ethnic group as they are Croats and Serbs, who converted into Islam),
- Bulgarians (they are not Slavs in fact, but a Turkic nation, that adopted a Slavic language).

[*^*]

The estimates how many were killed vary, but the lowest says 1.1 million, the highest 3 million and the usually mentioned middle ground is two million.

Any non-German source about that ? :)

[*^*]

No,naturally not...For chzechs and other slavic people equity is done when you rape and kill the neighours daughter,rape the mother,too and piss the father in the face.Then kill them all and burn the house.

Remember Yugoslavia?

Stupid joke or you are simply a f*uckin retard ?

[2RHPZ]

BS!




Another Bull***


Well, I did not speak about this (well-known) theory. I spoke about their opinion.


Both "BS" based on my personal interview(s) with former CZ chief of military intelligence (with whom I shared one room in Military hospital in 1998). That man, by the way, was in Moscow to cancel our membership in WP on behalf of our goverment. Prior to that time he used to deal with Soviets since early 80´s.

Regards,
10CRSDER

[*^*]

Both "BS" based on my personal interview(s) with former CZ chief of military intelligence

He was simply wrong If he said that Poland was getting better military technology from the Soviets than Czechoslovakia.

[apm]

I came a cross this sight and was shocked by what I read, there is more available than you have time to read. I spoke to a old Czech fellow here at the local deli and he confirmed that he saw German woman and children murdered when he was 15 in Prag.

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/sginferno/sgi06.html

All of this is very sad and points a nasty finger at the Czech's.

for sure this unidentified person might have seen the corpses of murdered children. and even if i understand how the displaced thousands had suffered and even if it is a pity that they have no possibilty to get their rights back in view of the entire background of their fate, this goddamn facistic website avoids any word about the millions of innocent victims of the german eastern campaign.
better do not waste your time on sites like this one. the only thing you could do is to spend some thoughts about it´s name. :roll:

[perdurabo]

You know what guys, altough meany realy horible things happened here just after WW2 it also brought one good thing, All those CE nations have countries without any big minority, with quite good land enough for their population. Yes there are still wounds i can imagine pain of some german grandmas when they visit former Breslau, because i've seen pain of my grandmother when she was in former Lwów. But those borders are good.

[Blumenteufel]

You know what guys, altough meany realy horible things happened here just after WW2 it also brought one good thing, All those CE nations have countries without any big minority, with quite good land enough for their population. Yes there are still wounds i can imagine pain of some german grandmas when they visit former Breslau, because i've seen pain of my grandmother when she was in former Lwów. But those borders are good.

Unfortunately you´re right. It created borders within Europe that are ethnically homogenic, something that didn´t exist before when the idea of national states arose.

[perdurabo]

Unfortunately you´re right. It created borders within Europe that are ethnically homogenic, something that didn´t exist before when the idea of national states arose.
yes from something realy bad we have clear situation now and can biuld new future.

[daily666]

yes from something realy bad we have clear situation now and can biuld new future.

You can't, when still a lot of people have eyes clearly glued on the past.

[johanness]

WWll is just 1 or 2 generations away,many people have direct contact to people missing dear ones.
Maybe it needs one more generation to find the normal relationship between our countries.
With France it wasn't also as easy as it looked like from the actually point of view.

[Hessian]

Well I went to other sites and tried to be objective in selecting sites to read and found these.



http://english.pravda.ru/politics/2005/08/24/61670.html
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1664777,00.html
http://www.conklinhouse.com/genealogy/maternal/heliletter.html

[Freibier]

Well, didn't want to post in this thread because parts of my family were directly affected (not murdered but had to flee the Sudetenland).
All I can say is that some 60 years later there is nothing that stands against czech-german friendship.
I cross the border usually once a month when I visit my hometown (just 30km away from the border) and get cheap cigarettes and a bottle of booze. Then I always head to a nice restaurant and enjoy the czech cuisine which is very very similar to the cuisine I enjoyed at my grandparents house when I was a kid.
I remember driving to Waidhaus (border city) and the sad look on my grandfathers face when he looked east to where he was born.
Unfortunately the iron curtain went away a couple years after he died and he never saw his hometown again. Still makes me sad thinking about it

[Crassus]

Well, just to give balance to conversation, I want to point out what happened so-called "Warthegau".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warthegau

So who can blame Poles that they were little upset after war.

[Zerodivider]

You can understand it, but two wrongs still don't make a right...

[perdurabo]

You can understand it, but two wrongs still don't make a right...
but they can end with something good, bombing the **** out of Hamburg wasnt preaty, but it lead to victory,peace and later european union.
Freibier good to hear your words...

[daily666]

Well I went to other sites and tried to be objective in selecting sites to read and found these.



http://english.pravda.ru/politics/2005/08/24/61670.html
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1664777,00.html
http://www.conklinhouse.com/genealogy/maternal/heliletter.html

It's hard to be objective on those events that hurt so many individuals, who have the right to have very subjective feelings about it. All of my family was forced to leave Vilnius and Horodna after the war, they left everything there, but what can we do about it?

While we think about the people being forced out of their land in the west we should not forget those who were moved in the east.

We may hope that that era is long gone. I agree with perdurabo on this one.

[Mastermind]

The march from the Sudatenland was horrifying as was the civilian march from Danzig in winter of 1944 and the massive civilian cruelty at the hands of the russians in Berlin a few months later. This abject cruelty tells a story into itself. It is above all cold blooded reality. This is what happens to people (both victims and the abusers) when they fall into hell on Earth... It all sounds so impossibly cruel. But, this stuff is alive and quite well in our own age right now. Rwanda? How about what went on during the LA riots as blacks smashed cinderblocks into the head of a defenselss white truck driver? How about the outstanding example of base cruelty to humans exampled most recently by the Muslims sawing off heads on TV? Or dragging burned corpses through the streets and hanging them off bridges? You didn't get to see it (the media were elswere that day) but I did... in the relief of Hue in 1968...the hundreds of hands just barely above ground, bound in barbed wire... of civilians who had been buried alive by their communist brothers from the north while they controlled the city...many of the hands were of babies and young mothers trying to hold their babies heads above dirt level. Don't think this reality is not alive and well and quite possibly coming to a neighborhood near you some day. Of course, we can fantasize all this is now behind us...afterall, we are so much more enlightened now.
MM

[Godspeed]

but they can end with something good, bombing the **** out of Hamburg wasnt preaty, but it lead to victory,peace and later european union.
Freibier good to hear your words...

Wrong! The terror bombings on German cities had no effort at all to the victory.

[perdurabo]

Wrong! The terror bombings on German cities had no effort at all to the victory.
maybe but still they happened. Same is wih border changes, they happened, meany ppl suffered some suffer till today but nothing will change it. We can take notes on this lesson and build new future or go back again to the spiral of madness.

[alfigel]

Wrong! The terror bombings on German cities had no effort at all to the victory.

The example of Dresden is even more interesting than Hamburg. While Dresden had some districts full of important Wehrmacht-related facilities, these were mostly undamaged, and great parts of the residential area were hit extremely hard.

The original plan was to bomb residential areas to provoke a possible revolt. This was a complete failure, the contrary happened (people got more loyal to the Nazi leadership) and even Churchill admitted that.

[*^*]

Wrong! The terror bombings on German cities had no effort at all to the victory.

How do you know that ? BTW you fogot to add that It was a "war crime" rofl.

[Indiana Jones]

Today it is universally considered that the Allied air raids by and large contributed to strengthening German resolve, and had rather limited (although clearly noticeable) effects on German production.

[Godspeed]

How do you know that ? BTW you fogot to add that It was a "war crime" rofl.

Eeeeehh??? :cantbeli:

[Godspeed]

How do you know that ? BTW you fogot to add that It was a "war crime" rofl.

Read yourself you ignorant ****

Overall, Anglo-American bombing of German cities claimed between 305,000 and 600,000 civilian lives.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#_note-34) Whether these attacks hastened the end of the war is a controversial question.

It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land… The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.
The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive."[52] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#_note-48)[53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#_note-49)

Churchill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9641/dresden2cchurchilllettehd9.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dresden2cchurchilllettehd9.jpg)

[Kilgor]

Wrong! The terror bombings on German cities had no effort at all to the victory.

Albert Speer doesn't agree with that statement, and he was in the best person to ask about strategic bombing.

[Freibier]

Albert Speer doesn't agree with that statement, and he was in the best person to ask about strategic bombing.
Albert Speer was a opportunist and just told the allies what they liked to hear in order to be treated better.
In german we call this (his) attitude "Arschkriechen"

Oh, and I find "*^*"'s remark rather insulting ...

[Kilgor]

Albert Speer was a opportunist and just told the allies what they liked to hear in order to be treated better.
In german we call this (his) attitude "Arschkriechen"

Oh, and I find "*^*"'s remark rather insulting ...

statistics can be provided to backup his statements, thought they would never be accepted by revisionists bent on calling strategic bombing a war crime and nothing else.

[Mastermind]

How do you know that ? BTW you fogot to add that It was a "war crime" rofl.
It was a war crime only if Germany and Japan had won. They didn't...so it was merely an effort to shorten the war. Apparently, it contributed to some degree to that end. How much is certainly debatable.MM

[perdurabo]

Oh, and I find "*^*"'s remark rather insulting ...
agreed, i don't know if we can call those bombings war crimes, but big masses of civilians were hurt, yes they where enemy, nazis. Somone said "when fighting with demons you must be carefull to not become one of them"

[*^*]

Read yourself you ignorant ****

Yawn...



Whose fault was that most Germans were stupid enough to support their sub-human "fuhrer" until the very end ? "War criminals"... Those airmen bombing nazi Germany were heroes and any revisionistic propaganda can't change that.

[theholeinthedonut]

" Wollt ihr den Totalen Krieg............? "

[Indiana Jones]

Whose fault was that most Germans were stupid enough to support their sub-human "fuhrer" until the very end ? "War criminals"... Those airmen bombing nazi Germany were heroes and any revisionistic propaganda can't change that.
Following your reasoning, the bombing of Warsaw was an entirely acceptable practice of contemporary warfare ?
The amount of unqualified and immature nonsense posted on this board is plain astonishing. You are not by any chance a grown man, are you ?

[*^*]

Following your reasoning, the bombing of Warsaw was an entirely acceptable practice of contemporary warfare ?

Really ?:roll:

[daily666]

Since you mention Dresden, my Grandfather saw that bombing himself as he was in a forced labour camp near that city. His remarks about it are fearsome, but he never seemed very sad about that fact. This says a lot.

The most devastating bombing ever was carried out on Tokyo (phosphorus firebombing) and somehow nobody mentiones it here. There were more than 100.000 people died, more than Dresden or even nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But weren't Germany and Japan the war starters and agressors? All of the above events are portrayed by some as allied warcrimes, but than, the allies won, and the winners write the rules.

[Pvt.Anderson]

Yawn...



Whose fault was that most Germans were stupid enough to support their sub-human "fuhrer" until the very end ? "War criminals"... Those airmen bombing nazi Germany were heroes and any revisionistic propaganda can't change that.

you're just here to provocate and enflame the situation with your stupid ,heavily biased posts ,tell us where u're from even so we can differ if you're just a flamer without any connection to the thread or not what i doubt

[Switek]

Ok. It's really hard for me to admit that Dresden bombing was a crime. But I don't find any trouble to recognize all single or group killing of german civilians after May 8th 1945 as a obvious crime what this thread, among others, is about.

:|

[Mastermind]

Albert Speer was a opportunist and just told the allies what they liked to hear in order to be treated better.
In german we call this (his) attitude "Arschkriechen"

Oh, and I find "*^*"'s remark rather insulting ...
Speer was very candid about the Allied bombing and no, he did not color his recollections to get better treatment. In fact, if you look at the statistics as presented from official Nazi records, the truth about the Allied bombing campaign in Europe was rather disheartening. Speer was not ashamed to tell his captors about his successful efforts to expand German war production under the rain of Allied bombs. It is a well know fact that German aircraft production was at it's height at the same time the Allied bombing raids were also at their most extreme. The raids on Regensburg and Schweinfurt were actually military disasters for the Americans and the bombing campaign was dramatically changed after that...and in spite of the apparent success in the bomb patterns, the aircraft plants in Regensburg and the ball bearing plants in Schweinfurt were hardly put out of action for more than a few weeks. And the mass fire bombing in both Germany and Britian clearly demonstarted that you can not depend on a collapse of civilian morale due to very extenisve raids like the Dresden and Hamburg type. Don't forget the outrage the world spewed on the Germans for the little (by comparison) raid over Amsterdam at the beginning of hostilities. In less than a year, the Brits were bombing Berlin and the great fire raid of Coventry by the Germans actually defined terror bombing...to be "Coventry-ized" was really quite something for a city after that defining disaster.

The truth is, Germany brought the disaster upon herself by adhering to Hitler's version of "Total War"...in that every citizen and civilian enterprise of the enemy nation is considered a military target until complete surrender is achieved. This kind of war was how the Germans so quickly disposed of Poland, Belgium and France. In the onslaught facing the Parisians, they chose to go under the German yoke rather than allow Paris to suffer a similar fate as Amsterdam...the Allies did not develop this doctrine...Hitler and his Generals did. As a result of their seeding the whirlwind, they reaped the storm that followed.

In all honesty, the Allies could not be held liable for their totaly brutal response to the threat of utter annihilation by a barbaric enemy. The certainty is this...the Allies reacted properly and with no consionable guilt considering the victory they achieved for their people, especially in light of the consequinces of failure they were facing. Failure was simply not an option. MM

[Pvt.Anderson]

Since you mention Dresden, my Grandfather saw that bombing himself as he was in a forced labour camp near that city. His remarks about it are fearsome, but he never seemed very sad about that fact. This says a lot.

The most devastating bombing ever was carried out on Tokyo (phosphorus firebombing) and somehow nobody mentiones it here. There were more than 100.000 people died, more than Dresden or even nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But weren't Germany and Japan the war starters and agressors? All of the above events are portrayed by some as allied warcrimes, but than, the allies won, and the winners write the rules.

see ,you also miss the point . the allies and the russians :roll: have been pointing their finger towards germany ,saying how bad war crimes are and how cruesome the germans carried them out ( once again we do not deny the fact that german units have committed them in a large scale ) sounding like didn't do any themselves ,like they've always just been the victims and did everything correctly .
The whole gulag thing should be considered as a warcrime and human rights abusing .

[*^*]

The whole gulag thing should be considered as a warcrime and human rights abusing .

And who says It wasn't ?

BTW the whole "bombing holocaust" thing is just too funny rofl.

[Indiana Jones]

Germans for the little (by comparison) raid over Amsterdam [...] to suffer a similar fate as Amsterdam...
This is, to say the least, quite frustrating... Amsterdam was never bombed on any scale during Fall Gelb. Perhaps you are confusing it with Rotterdam ?

This kind of war was how the Germans so quickly disposed of Poland, Belgium and France.
Policies of "total war" were not remotely instrumental in the defeat of any of the mentioned countries.

...the Allies did not develop this doctrine...Hitler and his Generals did.
Neither the Allies no the Germans "invented total war" or strategic aerial warfare-nor were they the first to apply it. Sir Trenchard and General Douhet are universally considered to be the leading proponents of the concept.
With all due respect, your are profoundly misinformed and merely parroting myths here.

In all honesty, the Allies could not be held liable for their totaly brutal response to the threat of utter annihilation by a barbaric enemy. The certainty is this...the Allies reacted properly and with no consionable guilt considering the victory they achieved for their people, especially in light of the consequinces of failure they were facing. Failure was simply not an option. MM
As for your reasoning on the moral dimension of the area bombing, as a Christian (who rejects the idea of collective culpability), I find it eminently disgusting.

[RBull]

The saddest thing in my opinion is the tremendous ammount of culture lost on both sides.


So true.

Many Czechs do not realize how many German nationales were living in Czechoslovakia prior WW2. It does not really matters during which century came the german inhabitants to the lands later known as Czechoslovakia, but they were there and accounted for more than 90% of population in some areas (sometimes even 99%, when the only Czech nationalses were custom officers, gandares and teachers at local school, like for example Bohemian Forrest area).

I am obviously not advocating any german attrocities and harassement comited to czech population during the WW2 - quite in contrary.
But it can not justify the brutality of Czechs on the Germans either. Revenging barbarian in barbarous way makes you worth nothing more than another barbarian. In my opinion, the denial stance exhibited by Czech gvt. policy and czech public is just masked, or subconscious sign of guilt.

For the record, one of my grand fathers died in german concentration camps, the other survived the war as soldier in Red Army. But now is 2007 and we should not live in the past, although we shall never forgett it.

[Quietscheentchen]

good post, rbull. i'm a german, and my father's family also had to flee to germany at the end of the war (but not out of czechoslovakia, i may add). my father was 4 years old then. it is hard to hear the stories of my grandma, how they had to flee, how they had nothing to eat, how they saw people dying in the trek moving westwards. stories of pain, horror and fear. stories that could be told by many people, regardless if they were germans, polish, chech or russians, just to name a few.
i think this is the essential core that we have to remember, that humans are able to do such things to other ones.
in a few years, most of the people who actively saw and wittnessed such events, will be gone. it is important to remember them and what they experienced, and we are responsible for their remembrance, even if it may hurt.

[Blumenteufel]

So true.

Many Czechs do not realize how many German nationales were living in Czechoslovakia prior WW2. It does not really matters during which century came the german inhabitants to the lands later known as Czechoslovakia, but they were there and accounted for more than 90% of population in some areas (sometimes even 99%, when the only Czech nationalses were custom officers, gandares and teachers at local school, like for example Bohemian Forrest area).

I am obviously not advocating any german attrocities and harassement comited to czech population during the WW2 - quite in contrary.
But it can not justify the brutality of Czechs on the Germans either. Revenging barbarian in barbarous way makes you worth nothing more than another barbarian. In my opinion, the denial stance exhibited by Czech gvt. policy and czech public is just masked, or subconscious sign of guilt.

For the record, one of my grand fathers died in german concentration camps, the other survived the war as soldier in Red Army. But now is 2007 and we should not live in the past, although we shall never forgett it.

Thank you for that post. It´s people like you that give me hope that this bureaucratic monster called E.U. is in the long run going to work out because of the human beings residing in it and living the spirit.

[RBull]

I am digging for the figgures, but can not find them right now. There was total population of 13.5 million inhabitants in Czechoslovakia prior WW2, however split by nationalities, I think there were more Germans than Slovaks living in republic called Czechoslovakia (pls. correct me if I am wrong).

My favorite place here in Czech Republic is the Sumava (Bohemian Forrest). I am going there several times per year for few years in the row by now. During the Cold War, the area was off limit for most of population, heavily guarded to prevent Czechs flee to the West. Visiting these places today, you can sense how it might look back then, when there were villages small farms, glass works... Most of the villages are gone, you can walk on the exact spot, but will not find even remains of buildings, just nothing - grass, trees...

What was said as sarkasm before in this thread - the ethnical cleansing is most effectove tool to prevent the **** which is now going on in places like Kosovo, Palestina, you name it... But is that right?
I am not judging anyone, the matter is certainly too complex to be resolved in debate like this. Lets imagine the Kosovo as example, what would be the right and fair way to solve it? Are the two ethnically different elements able to burry their hatred and start to live next to each other even for the "price" that some act from the past remain unrevenged? Looking on the various hotspots around the world, one may actually doubt that. Maybe the next generation of Czechs and Germans may work that out and set an example - unless the new wave of nationalism on each side will take over the feelings again.

[Pvt.Anderson]

So true.

Many Czechs do not realize how many German nationales were living in Czechoslovakia prior WW2. It does not really matters during which century came the german inhabitants to the lands later known as Czechoslovakia, but they were there and accounted for more than 90% of population in some areas (sometimes even 99%, when the only Czech nationalses were custom officers, gandares and teachers at local school, like for example Bohemian Forrest area).

I am obviously not advocating any german attrocities and harassement comited to czech population during the WW2 - quite in contrary.
But it can not justify the brutality of Czechs on the Germans either. Revenging barbarian in barbarous way makes you worth nothing more than another barbarian. In my opinion, the denial stance exhibited by Czech gvt. policy and czech public is just masked, or subconscious sign of guilt.

For the record, one of my grand fathers died in german concentration camps, the other survived the war as soldier in Red Army. But now is 2007 and we should not live in the past, although we shall never forgett it.

i totally agree awesome post

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

So true.

Many Czechs do not realize how many German nationales were living in Czechoslovakia prior WW2. It does not really matters during which century came the german inhabitants to the lands later known as Czechoslovakia, but they were there and accounted for more than 90% of population in some areas (sometimes even 99%, when the only Czech nationalses were custom officers, gandares and teachers at local school, like for example Bohemian Forrest area).



But were this germans in reality 100% germanic people? You must not forgot about germanisation after batle of White mouintain in Czechlands, where for example everybody must change his slavic name to germanic or germanic form. In that time weren't in czechlands czech school, czech nationality and language was dead. There wasn't for 200 years czech books. First czech book was Czech-German vocabulary 1834-39 from Josef Jungmann. Jungmann, Němcová, Purkyně, Čelakovský{czech writers} they started learn czech language after 20, their family language was german.

[RBull]

But were this germans in reality 100% germanic people? You must not forgot about germanisation after batle of White mouintain in Czechlands, where for example everybody must change his slavic name to germanic or germanic form. In that time weren't in czechlands czech school, czech nationality and language was dead. There wasn't for 200 years czech books. First czech book was Czech-German vocabulary 1834-39 from Josef Jungmann. Jungmann, Němcová, Purkyně, Čelakovský{czech writers} they started learn czech language after 20, their family language was german.

And does this really matter? We are talking the 1945 here, when those people were forced out. And in case you are doubting the percentage of Germans in pre-WW2 Czechoslovakia, that was actually figure given by the people themselves - whether they are Czechs, or Germans. Although the germanisation you mention obviously did happen, it did not affect use of Czech language by "regular" population, but rather the middle and upper class and who have been using German language in their social environment, in all contacts with authorities and also in politics.
I am in no way putting down the efforts of re-surrection of czech langueage and its popularisation by czech literature and music protagonists you have mentioned - just different topic for different thread.

In my contribution above, I particulary ment the areas belonging to Sudeten around Bohemian Forrest area, where many of the setlements really were mostly populated by German nationales. In those areas most of the nationality mixing was happening in cities, where Czechs accounted for larger percentage than in Sudeten countryside. I have no knowledge how was the population split nationality in the other Sudeten areas than Sumava though.
However, for the sake of objectivity, in 1945 there was also large number of Germans who came to the Czech lands during the WW2, being sent there by nazi authorities, assigned for various positions in production, economy, defense...

[alfigel]

But were this germans in reality 100% germanic people? You must not forgot about germanisation after batle of White mouintain in Czechlands, where for example everybody must change his slavic name to germanic or germanic form. In that time weren't in czechlands czech school, czech nationality and language was dead. There wasn't for 200 years czech books. First czech book was Czech-German vocabulary 1834-39 from Josef Jungmann. Jungmann, Němcová, Purkyně, Čelakovský{czech writers} they started learn czech language after 20, their family language was german.

Does this really matter? Bohemia and Moravia have been part of the Austrian Empire (and Austria-Hungary later on) so there hasn't been any real ethnic separation for centuries. The Sudeten Germans have been there for a really long time, a lot of German-speaking Austrians moved to Bohemia, and Vienna was _the_ European melting pot in the 19th century because people from all over the empire (but especially Bohemia and Moravia) moved there (when you're in Vienna, try to get a phone book and read in it, you will find so many Slavic surnames).

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

The Sudeten Germans have been there for a really long time
Name "Sudetenland" begin in end of 19 century as answer to czech national revival.

[Switek]

Name of Sudetenland begin in end of 19 century.

So what? Germans had lived there long before this term was invented. That's a fact.

:roll:

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

So what? Germans had lived there long before this term was invented. That's a fact.

:roll:
Yes I know, firsth germans where invited by Premysl Otakar II. in 13. century.... And I'm also half czech and half german. I have family in Germany. I was every holidays one mounth in Germany. But nobody from my german family was murder by Czech. Nobody hurt they.

[Switek]

Yes I know, firsth germans where invited by Premysl Otakar II. in 13. century.

the national question was developed in 19th century. In middle ages there wasn't a national problem. For example in many cities in Poland under a Royal Crown the major population were Germans by origin,

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

the national question was developed in 19th century. In middle ages there wasn't a national problem. For example in many cities in Poland under a Royal Crown the major population were Germans by origin,
Yes, yes..... but don't like this question about "Czech killing Germans". Sometimes some germans uses lies from Goebls propaganda.

[alfigel]

Name "Sudetenland" begin in end of 19 century as answer to czech national revival.

A name is a name, nothing more. Germans have lived there a lot longer. Read my posting again: the Austrian Empire (and Austria-Hungary from 1867 on) was a multi-ethnic state, that's why there were German-speaking communities all over the empire, e.g. in Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary, Transsylvania, and also the other way round, like Slovenian communities in what is now Carinthia or Croatian communities in what is now Burgenland.

[alfigel]

Yes, yes..... but don't like this question about "Czech killing Germans". Sometimes some germans uses lies from Goebls propaganda.

The grandmother of a good friend of mine had to watch how her father had to dig his own grave and was then shot, and that was definitely after Goebbels committed suicide. So what's your point?

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

A name is a name, nothing more. Germans have lived there a lot longer. Read my posting again: the Austrian Empire (and Austria-Hungary from 1867 on) was a multi-ethnic state, that's why there were German-speaking communities all over the empire, e.g. in Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary, Transsylvania, and also the other way round, like Slovenian communities in what is now Carinthia or Croatian communities in what is now Burgenland.
Yes I know, firsth germans where invited by Premysl Otakar II. in 13. century.

[Switek]

Yes, yes..... but don't like this question about "Czech killing Germans". Sometimes some germans uses lies from Goebls propaganda.

No one blames Czech of being the same like nazists but the fact is fact. There was a criminal act agains Germans just afrer WW2. Such things happens but no one can deny them. That's all.

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

The grandmother of a good friend of mine had to watch how her father had to dig his own grave and was then shot, and that was definitely after Goebbels committed suicide. So what's your point?
My german grandmother after war was mark with white band and this was everything. And nobody hurt she, also her family.

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

No one blames Czech of being the same like nazists but the fact is fact. There was a criminal act agains Germans just afrer WW2. Such things happens but no one can deny them. That's all.
Crimes were, but not in so large number. That's all.

[alfigel]

Yes I know, firsth germans where invited by Premysl Otakar II. in 13. century.

Do you think that's the only way how Germans came to Bohemia? You're very naive.

[alfigel]

Crimes were, but not in so large number. That's all.

Prove it. You're not trying to justify the Beneš decrees, do you?

[Switek]

Crimes were, but not in so large number. That's all.

the volume of crimes is secondary matter...

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

Prove it. You're not trying to justify the Beneš decrees, do you?
My family is half german, we lose many by decrees. But I think, that benes decrees was good solution.

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

the volume of crimes is secondary matter...
crimes were, becouse hate was so big.

[Switek]

crimes were, becouse hate was so big.


The same was from Baltic to Black Sea, in every country which "tasted" german occupation .. there were crimes and assaults... many innocent were killed, sad but true... :|

[RBull]

Yes I know, firsth germans where invited by Premysl Otakar II. in 13. century.


Why are you insisting on those facts? Nobody is arguing about the period when and why the Germans came to Czech lands.
We are talking the 1945, so your points are irrelevant to this debate.
I think and have mentioned it before - revenge barbarian act in barbarian way and you are no more than barbarian yourself. That is my view.
All the arguments how many were the victims, how horrible were their deaths and such nonsense are just avoiding the confession. I, as a Czech, do feel that we have obligation to face the history and get even with it in a fair and honest way. But I also feel that at current time there is no political will (and social climate) in Czech Republic to that gesture. Please note I wrote "gesture".
I have many reasons for that, one of them is that when I was 19, I "escaped" to the Wast, ended in West Germany where they took care of me untill I returned back to Czechoslovakia not long after the fall of Iron courtain. I will never forget that "gesture".

On sidenote - German population was punished and harassed in literally every European country at the end of WW2. It happened in France, Holland, Poland, Romania - you name it. That is a fact and one can understand why the locals acted in such way - the WW2 was so brutal experience comparing to the previous conflicts, that people often reacted in brutal fashion.