John Kerry killed 20 terrorists in Vietnam

[mustamato]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,467133,00.html

My translation of the article below. Sorry for bad english. But one thing is for sure.
Kerry is a true American hero woot woot woot Vote for him people.

______________________________________________________

John Kerry killed 20 Vietnamese

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0404/22/kerry2.jpg
A picture of John Kerry when he left for
Vietnam that has now been published on
his homepage

The presidential candidate John Kerry killed atleast 20 enemies in Vietnam.
He was a eminent soldier, was injured three times and was decorated five
times. This is shown by the 130 documents that has been put up on his campain site.
The two presidential candidates military background has been a debated issue
in the election campaign in USA.

AWOL
The poisonous darts was first aimed at president George Bush - and it was said
that he ran away from the Vietnam war and took AWOL from the National guard.
But in the latest weeks republican debaters have all more violently accused
presidential candidate John Kerry. It has been said that he run away from the
Vietnam war with a minor injury, and that is the reason to why he has refused
to show the documents from his military duty.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0404/22/kerry3.jpg
John Kerry

First class soldier
But Jon Kerry - that served in four years before he travelled home and joined
the anti-war movement - answered those critizing him. And the 130 documents
now put up on his official homepage gives the picture of a first class soldier
and officer.
- He was very talented, well-bred and professioanl Navy officer, that in all ways
will get the best grades, writes a commander, that calls him very intelligent
and well-read. One of the documents about John Kerrys injuries has not been
released, but the news agency AP says that their reporters have seen it at
Kerrys campain HQ. Despite this it is clear that Kerry had the right to leave
Vietnam - that opportunity was given to all those that had been inured three
times.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0404/22/kerrypurple.jpg
Three times Kerry was awarded the Purple Heart,
for being wounded in action.

Commander on a patrol boat
John Kerry was awarded a Bronze Star, a Silver Star, and three Purple Hearts.
He was awarded the medals during his most hectic times in the war - as a commander
on a fast patrol boat. Kerrys own commander George Elliott writes:
- Involved in several of the enemy initiated gunfights, among them a ambush
during the truce at christmas, he managed to effectively fight back and is inofficially
recognized for killing 20 enemy soldiers.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0404/22/kerry1.jpg
John Kerry with his crew on the patrol boat

Chased, and killed him

In the documents several of the fights is portrayed in detail. Once during a heavy
gunfight it is depicted how a enemy soldier with a mortar run out from a hole
just a couple of meters from the boat. But John Kerry jumped out of the boat,
chased the man and shot him to death. In this event, in three different gunfights,
his squad chased and killed ten emenies. No one from the own squad was injured,
and John Kerry was decorated. Just two weeks after this event two mines exploded
near Kerrys boat. He was injured in the bottom and in the right arm, but when
he saw a injured comrade in the water Kerry jumped in to the water. In the
documents it is written that he saved the comrade, "without any care for own safety"
under the fire from enemy snipers.

http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/veterans/service.html
Here the documents can be found

Mattias Lundell
Publiced: 2004-04-22

[American Patriot]

I don't care if he killed Ho Chi Minh with his bare hands.

[American Patriot]

Also I believe he was in 'Nam for a whole month.

[mustamato]

Also I believe he was in 'Nam for a whole month.

November 17, 1968 – Upon completion of his training, Kerry
reports for duty to Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14, Cam Ranh
Bay, South Vietnam.
Early April, 1969 – Kerry departs Vietnam

[Midav]

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/yoyo.gif

exactly what I think of it...

[Jack Mehoff]

As a veteran myself, John Kerry can lick my ass and hang out with Hanoi Jane. I'd rather vote for Wesley Clark before Hanoi Kerry.

[budanski]

So I'm a terrorist now?

[ShotOver]

Yeah, it's mashedpotato trying to be a smartarse, by comparing this gulfwar with Vietnam, the idiot will never give it a rest.

But yeah, course your a terrorist Budanski, you little commie you, hahahaha

[MetalBoy]

So what is this campaign turning into, who's got a higher bodycount?
How about:

"Sgt. Carlos Hathcock For President, He Wasted Tons of Charlie (Literally)"

[Ghostwolf]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0404/22/kerry2.jpg

I thought he was in the Army, and not the Navy?

[obd]

Want to hear the latest Republican crap about Kerry: A spokesman for Bush has mockingly said that the only reason John Kerry was wounded 3 times in battle and got 3 purple hearts was so he could get out of Vietnam faster....

I have only one question for that Republican ****head: Was this at the same time that Kerry was risking his life to rush in and save a Commando under heavy fire and close to death when all others refused to do so for which he got the silver star??? I can think of easier ways to avoid Vietnam then get shot 3 times.......and George Bush's way is one of them.

Nah, it was probably at the same time that George Bush was serving 1 of his total of 3 days service in the National Guard..... ROFLMAO... I still cant get over the fact that Bush is proud of that... I mean, he showed up for 3 WHOLE DAYS!!!! ROFLMAO..... JEEZUS what a loser... I wonder if he played hooky for most of his Yale career too???? No wonder when asked, nobody in his NG unit remmembers him.... The asshole was NEVER THERE!!!

[obd]

Your no veteran Jack Mehoff so STFU

[mustamato]

Your no veteran Jack Mehoff so STFU

Exactly. But maybe he thinks that making some pull-ups in Korea in some base
gives him the right to call himself a veteran?

[Fintin]

Your no veteran Jack Mehoff so STFU

alot of use are soon to be veterans of kicking your ass :-*$

[shorty]

OMG......Take cover **** storm about to hit!!!!!!!!!!!!! woot http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Apr/20044226279043313720495.jpg

[Mark Sman]

The post that started this thread speaks to Kerry's war record. I don't believe that record has ever been in question.

Some comments have spoken to President Bush's service record. Inaccurately.

I don't believe either man's service record is in question. The facts are well known.

I wonder if this thread will devolve into a another bunch of unfounded BS, or turn into a real discussion. What do these men's service record have to say about their ability to lead now?

You will note, I hope, that the preceding is a question.

If you do not intend to provide rational opinions than please keep them to yourselves.

[Uninen]

I just dont get it mustamato.... "terrorists"?

[ShotOver]

Mate, it's just mashedpotato trying to make Iraq look like Vietnam, by calling them Terrorists, he thinks the VC/NVA were freedom fighters just like the Insurgents.
Basically, hes being his usual ****head self, and should be ignored by all people wanting their inteligence not to be insulted.

[cut]

Mate, it's just mashedpotato trying to make Iraq look like Vietnam, by calling them Terrorists, he thinks the VC/NVA were freedom fighters just like the Insurgents.
Basically, hes being his usual ****head self, and should be ignored by all people wanting their inteligence not to be insulted.

There's no real reason not for them to be, it's just used as a buzz word by Bush. The way I see it terrorists are the people that attack civilians, and rarely like a bomb attack on barracks on soldiers. Those who are fighting with Israeli soldiers are percieved to be combatants by unboased western media and therefore I think the insurgents in Iraq are just that. Of course those who kidnap in Iraq and those bomb civilians in Israel or Iraq are terrorists, but that doesn't mean you can call all of those fighting for the same cause terrorists. Terrorists use terrorist means, therefore mustamato is wrong but then so are all the people on this sight that routinely reffer to iraqi insurgence as terrorist as a general label. I don't see why this should be ok for Iraqis and not for Vietnamese because there are more americans from Vietnamese descent.

[sethen]

Anybody with a clue knew Vietnam was a goatf@ck! So don't portray Kerry as being a traitor against a noble cause! If we would have commited to total war against Vietnam we would have won. Instead we conducted a pussyfoot political scherade, just like we are doing now in Iraq!!!!!!!!! This COMBAT veteran will vote for Kerry NOT Bush! I would much have a reluctant, conscious combat veteran, than a cocaine sniffing rich boy who joined the Air NG to get out Vietnam!!!!!!!!! Bush, *sniff sniff* sure got out of the Air NG at the right time, *sniff, sniff* umm, right before they started administering the Drug tests!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

[scm77]

If John Kerry was such a great soldier, how come he got wounded three times? rofl

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0404/22/kerry2.jpg
He even looks like a **** back then.

I'm not old enough to vote, and I live in another country. But if I did live in the US I wouldn't give a **** about what Kerry did in Vietnam. Just like I don't care what Bush did. That was 30 years ago and it doesn't matter.

[martinexsquaddie]

he was a sailor
so what do you expect a matlot with anything more dangerous than a pencil sharpener is best avoided :roll:

[Steve Andrews]

I'd vote for Carlos Hathcock.

[Truthsayer]

"Honor all veterans - as long as they are republican"


This thread make me sick. Your spitting on the very same veterans you claim to stand by in other threads.

[Grim]

I dont think there is any point in arguing about the candidates military records and lack of it.
Clearly G. Bush made every efort too avoid beeing sent to Vietnam.
On the other hand Kerry vent over became a hero and all that.

Wheter you like it or not the fact stands!
Bush has always been running away form his problems, and gotten away with it because of his father.

Recently it has been discovered that Bush lied too everyone about Iraq, is this really the guy you want leading your country?

[ibstolidude]

If John Kerry was such a great soldier, how come he got wounded three times? rofl

- Kerry supporter or not that was a pretty bold and ignorant statement

[ibstolidude]

Recently it has been discovered that Bush lied too everyone about Iraq, is this really the guy you want leading your country? - if one belives that he truly lied not was mistanken then why vote for JK - he too stated that Iraq had WMD, as did many politicians.

[cut]

"Honor all veterans - as long as they are republican"


This thread make me sick. Your spitting on the very same veterans you claim to stand by in other threads.

I thought you were banned-??

[scm77]

If John Kerry was such a great soldier, how come he got wounded three times? rofl

- Kerry supporter or not that was a pretty bold and ignorant statement

Notice the rofl after it. Just a little joke I heard.

[weedman]

Recently it has been discovered that Bush lied too everyone about Iraq, is this really the guy you want leading your country? - if one belives that he truly lied not was mistanken then why vote for JK - he too stated that Iraq had WMD, as did many politicians.Just look at Dean and you get the reason.

[scm77]

Bush didn't lie. British intelligence, irsraeli intelligence, german intelligence as well as the United Nations and just about every country all thought they had WMD.

What they disputed was if war was nescessary or not.

Somebody on TV a while ago said this. "Why would the US and Britain get together and say "let's lie about weapons of mass destruction, and then we'll go to war, find no WMDs and everyone will know that we lied!"?"

The intelligence was wrong. War was still right.

[ibstolidude]

If John Kerry was such a great soldier, how come he got wounded three times? rofl

- Kerry supporter or not that was a pretty bold and ignorant statement

Notice the rofl after it. Just a little joke I heard.
I have seen people get awarded purple hearts for being hit with a rock to having large pieces of their hand blown off. Being wounded is often about wrong place, wrong time...and alot depends on the job one fills. Sometimes avoidable, sometimes not; however I cannot make statements about Mr Kerry's purple hearts, last time I checked I was never in Vietnam w/him. No more so am I ready to critique Mr. Kerry's purple heart awards than am I to beleive claims the GWB was AWOL. The records are there, both offer factual support of their claims.

[hist2004]

It’s interesting to watch this debate about presidential candidates and their military backgrounds.
(Or lack there of). I suppose it’s natural to tout one’s military career for leverage. The fact that a
Presidential candidate has a military background, even a distinguished one doesn’t seem to sway the
voters in the United States, at least not in the elections of the recent past. Take for example:

Clinton defeated George H. Bush
Clinton defeated Bob Dole
Bob Kerrey (Medal of Honor) lost a bid in the 92 elections
George W. Bush defeated Al Gore (Vietnam Vet-non combat duties)

Regards,
Hist2004

[Rantanplan]

So I'm a terrorist now?

In my opinion "Yes"!!! http://home.htp-tel.de/svenreimann/smilies/fressehalten.gif

[fokket]

the term 'terrorist' is not suitable.

[mustamato]

the term 'terrorist' is not suitable.

Probably not. But since Kerry was based in the southern parts of Vietnam
he did not fight regular NVA, rather insurgents. And well, some think that
the insurgents in Vietnam is terrorists. So I just made it more interesting,
I don´t think that Vietnamese people are terrorists of course.

[LJK]

Your no veteran Jack Mehoff so STFU

Exactly. But maybe he thinks that making some pull-ups in Korea in some base
gives him the right to call himself a veteran?

rofl

[Jack Mehoff]

Your no veteran Jack Mehoff so STFU

rofl

Like really? Maybe you should take a trip to Utah and I'll show you.

[Navy]

The republicans on this thread REALLY makes me sick. Like trutsayer said: "Honor all veterans - as long as they are republican"

I dont know where Jack served and if he is a veteran or not, but he TRULY behaves like a fooking ignorant child.

An advice to Jack: Grow the fook up!

[Jack Mehoff]

The republicans on this thread REALLY makes me sick. Like trutsayer said: "Honor all veterans - as long as they are republican"

I dont know where Jack served and if he is a veteran or not, but he TRULY behaves like a fooking ignorant child.

An advice to Jack: Grow the fook up!
In that case, **** YOU. A kettle shouldn't call any kettle black.



So will u, u f*cker!

I sure hope that u americans choose Kerry. He has actually done his duty in nam. What has Bush done, besides being drunk in texas?

A nice thing with europe is that u dont get elected because of the size of your wallet!

[Navy]

And your statement is? :backhand:

[Jack Mehoff]

Don't be hatin' because you can't vote and voice your opinion in this year election you Euro hippy. GWB gets my vote for sure. :D


http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/368/finger.jpg

[NcDeuce]

I sure hope that u americans choose Kerry. He has actually done his duty in nam. What has Bush done, besides being drunk in texas?

Your intelligence shines ever so brightly...all Bush does is drink at his ranch home in Texas :roll:

[Jack Mehoff]

Your no veteran Jack Mehoff so STFU

Exactly. But maybe he thinks that making some pull-ups in Korea in some base
gives him the right to call himself a veteran?

mashedpotatoes. Maybe you should provide the me the definition of "veteran".

[Uninen]

Jack,

veteran is somebody that has fought a war and survived. Have you? Cause if you have this is the first time that you mention it.

[NcDeuce]

the term 'terrorist' is not suitable.

Probably not. But since Kerry was based in the southern parts of Vietnam
he did not fight regular NVA, rather insurgents. And well, some think that
the insurgents in Vietnam is terrorists. So I just made it more interesting,
I don´t think that Vietnamese people are terrorists of course.

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc4.jpg

You should be banned for your indefatigable retardedness.

[Jack Mehoff]

Jack,

veteran is somebody that has fought a war and survived. Have you? Cause if you have this is the first time that you mention it.

rofl

veteran-->applies to ANYBODY who has served in the armed forces
war veteran-->duh, do i have to say more?
combat vetaran-->it's obvious
disable veteran-->i don't have to say anything


See, you learn something new every day.

[Uninen]

:roll:

No. If i would go to visit my grandpa and said that some American said to me that since ive served, its ok for me to call myself as "veteran"..... lol, the old man would kick my ass, or at least die trying... :|

"vetaran" is somebody that has fought a war, get that.

[Jack Mehoff]

:roll:

No. If i would go to visit my grandpa and said that some American said to me that since ive served, its ok for me to call myself as "veteran"..... lol, the old man would kick my ass, or at least die trying... :|

"vetaran" is somebody that has fought a war, get that.

Then what do you call people who served in the armed forces? Conscript? Pimp? Oh wait, we don't have conscript here in America.


Like i said: veterans, WAR veterans, COMBAT veterans, DISABLE veterans

More specific: WW2 veteran, Vietnam War veteran, Gulf War veteran, OEF veteran, OIF veteran etc.


http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=veteran

[NcDeuce]

:roll:

No. If i would go to visit my grandpa and said that some American said to me that since ive served, its ok for me to call myself as "veteran"..... lol, the old man would kick my ass, or at least die trying... :|

"vetaran" is somebody that has fought a war, get that.

Jack was in Afghanistan for Enduring Freedom. Go fight with your grandpa now...dumbf*ck

[Salty Dog]

So what is this campaign turning into, who's got a higher bodycount?
How about:

"Sgt. Carlos Hathcock For President, He Wasted Tons of Charlie (Literally)"

hey! show some respect for the Marine!

[Uninen]

Jack,

Here we call em as "reservists".



Jack was in Afghanistan for Enduring Freedom. Go fight with your grandpa now...dumbf*ck

NcDeuce,

Go choke yourself, before somebody else does it for you.

And he was not.

[Maine Finn]

:roll:

No. If i would go to visit my grandpa and said that some American said to me that since ive served, its ok for me to call myself as "veteran"..... lol, the old man would kick my ass, or at least die trying... :|

"vetaran" is somebody that has fought a war, get that.

My grandfathers did not fight in a war, but they both served in the military during World War Two. By your definition, neither one of them are veterans; and by your definition, my paternal grandfather - who did not actually fight in the war - should not be buried the Maine Veterans' Memorial Cemetary.

Thank you for dishonouring the past and present servicemen and women by your statement. I'll remember that after I get out of boot camp.

[NcDeuce]

Jack,

Here we call em as "reservists".



Jack was in Afghanistan for Enduring Freedom. Go fight with your grandpa now...dumbf*ck

NcDeuce,

Go choke yourself, before somebody else does it for you.

And he was not.

You obviously were not paying attention when we had a thread about Jack's CIB. Go choke your grandpa...

P.S. http://www.americal.org/awards/cib.gif
And I repeat...you're a dumbf*ck.

[obd]

Jack MEhof served 5 days in the Army so he could call himself a Veteran..

George bush served 3 days in the Air Froce national Guard so he could call himself an airman...and pussy out from Vietnam

I can see why Jerk Mehof likes him so much.... They are practically on the same page.... ROFLMAO

John Kerry served with honor according to all.. Even Republicans serve on his campaign because of his combat record and his selflessness in the Nam......3 purple hearts and a silver star and a gleaming review from all who he served under and above speak for themselves...... John Kerry is an American hero. George Bush is an American pussy.

[Maine Finn]

Jack MEhof served 5 days in the Army so he could call himself a Veteran..

George bush served 3 days in the Air Froce national Guard so he could call himself an airman...

I can see why Jerk Mehof likes him so much.... They are practically on the same page.... ROFLMAO

Correction: Jack has served, if I remember this right, six years in the Army and National Guard. He can correct me on the details if he so chooses, but I believe that's far more accurate than your statement.

[MEGR]

Shouldn't Mustamato, Duci, and Helex be calling the Vietnamese freedom fighters.. I mean, they always have a heart attack when we praise the deaths of terrorists. Why the change of heart there?

[Uninen]

Maine Finn,

Maybe you should remove the "Finn" part of your nick name. Because, if theres anybody in your famility that actually speaks Finnish ask him / her what does word veteraani (veteran) means....

They should tell you the same thing that i said, which is "somebody that has fought a war, somebody that has taken part in it." That is of course if they truly know what about their talking about.

NcDeuce,

Nothing personal i assume? Thanks. :)

Futhermore, he still wasnt there.... Jack that is.

Oh and about my grandpa, he actually has "a bodycount" oof several dozens of men, his one tough SOB... (he was in infranty, as SMG gunner...) so i think ill pass.. ;)

[obd]

really wow. Congradulations Jerk Mehof. I retract my statement.... So why do you like George so much Mehof..... I mean after all he panzied out in Vietnam and only served 3 days of his national guard duty so he could take some pictures of himself in front of his jet for political reasons....... Arnt you offended that your leader is a fraud and a panzie and hides behind three days of NG duty like its an honor...... the man should be ashamed of himself....... his attempts to bring honor to what he did should sicken any veteran or people like me. I had four of my family members die in Vietnam while Bush was hiding from it.....Thats not what I call a leader...... Kerry was out there in the muddy rivers doing his service to his country with valor.....he is a true leader and not some stupid religious fool pretending to run the damn country and pretending to be an honorable veteran while he is really just a drunken college frat boy daddy, a ****load of money, a piss poor performance by Al Gore, and a fraudulant Florida voting scheme got into office!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[farmgirl]

quote:

Futhermore, he still wasnt there.... Jack that is.



Is it your mission in life to provoke the BTDTs on this board? Jack did serve in A'Stan. I don't understand why you insist on making statements like these day after day after day.

[Maine Finn]

Maine Finn,

Maybe you should remove the "Finn" part of your nick name. Because, if theres anybody in your famility that actually speaks Finnish ask him / her what does word veteraani (veteran) means....

They should tell you the same thing that i said, which is "somebody that has fought a war, somebody that has taken part in it." That is of course if they truly know what about their talking about.

You little bastard. My mother's family is Finnish and I'm proud of that. Who are you to tell me what my name should and shouldn't include, just because I am not fluent in the language of my grandparents? Who are you to suggest that my family - the Polvinen family - are not educated in that language enough to know what they are talking about? Who in the hell are you to talk about my family just because you have a better command and knowledge of the Finnish language than I do?!

I've been able to tolerate your posts before, but that was because you managed to have honour enough to avoid saying what you have just said. If you had held any worth to me, you have just lost it by dishonouring your fellow Finns. Great job, you ignorant ****head. I hope you get banned for that.

Go **** a log. Maybe it will like you more than the rest of us do.

~Emily

[MEGR]

Omg. My father didn't go to 'nam (even though he was of draft age), but i certainly don't think less of him. Kerry's war record is something we should praise, but just because Bush didn't go into 'nam doesn't mean he's a draft dodger. He was serving his country in his way, like my dad was. My dad was in the peace corp helping others around the world.

Also, and to think that we should vote for a guy based on the amount of people he killed is just plain retarded. For all you non-US people, Kerry has flip-flopped on so many issues. First he supported the war, now he doesn't, he just puts up his finger, and checks where the wind is blowing then follows. At least Bush has been consistant with this policies.

Of course, Mustamato, and all non-US citizens, you can't vote here, so it don't matter anyways.

[Uninen]

quote:

Futhermore, he still wasnt there.... Jack that is.



Is it your mission in life to provoke the BTDTs on this board? Jack did serve in A'Stan. I don't understand why you insist on making statements like these day after day after day.

Jack made a difference between "veteran" and "war veteran" and called himself as "veteran", which according by him is somebody that has "only" served in some armed forces.

Im just saying what he said. its within this topic. Go see.

[farmgirl]

You said he "wasn't there." He was. That's my point. That really has nothing to do with titles.

[TheBlackHand]

Kerry's war record is honorable and brave.

His postwar record is not.

During his time in the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (http://www.usvetdsp.com/jf_kerry.htm), Kerry basically said that everything he/we did in Vietnam was wrong. In the process he besmirched the service of everyone who served over there, including himself. While I agree with much of his 1972 statement (http://pages.xtn.net/~wingman/docs/kerryst.htm), it's the blanket statement regarding his fellow veterans that I take for an insult.

When Kerry threw his medals back at the Captial building he symbolically repudiated his prior military service and everything associated with it. At that point, Kerry gave up his right to reclaim that service for personal gain, i.e. a run for office.

Kerry now makes the claim that he threw someone else's medals away, not his own. IMO, that makes him not only a hypocrite, but a liar as well. How stupid does he think we are? Stupid enough to vote for him?

On the other hand, these attempts to question Kerry's first Purle Heart are every bit as mean spirited and politically motivated as were Kerry's comments before the commission in '72. I can't stand conservative chicken hawks (http://www.drastic.com/~scottb/misc666/politicians%20__%20who%20served.txt) any more than pinko liberal limp wrists.

[Uninen]

You said he "wasn't there." He was. That's my point. That really has nothing to do with titles.

I just got PM from Jack, and im waiting for a reply, but if he was in Afghanistan, should he then have called himself as "war veteran" and just not as "veteran" according his own logic that he posted earlier here on this topic?

But im sure that since ive asked Jack, he will soon enough educate us all of what has and what hasnt he done. ;)

[incubz5]

When liberals hyperventilate over their presidential candidate's combat medals instead of his draft dodging, it can only mean one thing: War is afoot. Although it takes a lot of work to stuff a New England liberal like Kerry into a Commander-In-Chief shirt, the alternative is far worse, just ask Howard Dean.

Let me remind the pro-Kerry camp of something: We're not sending John Kerry, purple hearts and all, back into the rice paddies of Vietnam, we're sending him into the marble halls of the White House, into the situation room, into Air Force One, Camp David, the Oval Office. Rather than patrolling the waters of the Mekong Delta, a President Kerry would instead decide United States foreign and domestic policy, set a budget for the military, and decide how that military is used. On these subjects, purple hearts are moot, and it's his voting recored that counts. Allow me:

In 1996, Kerry introduced a bill to slash Defense Department funding by $6.5 billion.Kerry's bill had no co-sponsors and never came to a floor vote.

In 1995, Kerry voted to freeze defense spending For 7 Years and slash over $34 billion from Defense. Only 27 other Senators voted with Kerry.

In 1993, Keery introduced a plan to cut numerous Defense Programs, including:

Cut the number of Navy submarines and their crews

Reduce the number of light infantry units in the Army down to one

Reduce tactical fighter wings in the Air Force

Terminate the Navy's coastal mine-hunting ship program

Force the retirement of no less than 60,000 members of the Armed Forces in one year.


In 1993, Kerry voted against increased Defense Spending for Military Pay Raises. Kerry voted to kill an increase in military pay over five years.

In 1992, Kerry voted to cut $6 billion from Defense. Republicans and Democrats successfully blocked the attempt to cut defense spending.

Here are some of the weapons systems Kerry attempted to block or phase out over his 30 year career: F-16 Fighting Falcons, B-1Bs B-2As F-15, M1 Abrams, Patriot Missile, AH-64 Apache Helicopter, Tomahawk Cruise Missile, Aegis Air-Defense Cruiser.

Note that Kerry's most radical attempts at compromising our defense came directly after Gulf War 1, after the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing, and after the Khobar Towers Bombing. It is sickening to see individuals propping this radical defense-hating liberal up as some kind of tough war-cheif. He has voted for 30 years to compromise and weaken our military, not just its systems, but its men and women.

No one should ever trump a war record alone as evidence of good national leadership. Let me remind the Kerry Purple Heart Club that Adolph Hitler was also a wounded, and decorated veteran.

[Luxembourger]

I supported the war, I am just a bit disappointed that there was no good plan for the reconstruction of iraq. Who to blame? It s hard to say . I just think if the US had offered other more countries like India contracts to rebuild the country, India would have sent a lot of troops that would have replaced many US troops and may have avoided the fact that many US soliders were killed after the end of major combat operations in mai 2003.

it is a fact that all other coalition nations who contribute in the rebuilding process get a piece of the iraqi !Cake" I mean they get at least some contracts to do bunsiness over there.
Just bring in some nations in, give them contracts and you can have a bigger coalition.

NOw my point is , having spoken to some american soldiers coming back from IRAQ , and having seen myself American sevicemen s cars with bumper stickers " I vote JK " , is that many returning soldiers from OIF are surly not going to vote for Bush ....why? you will have the chance to speak to many returning US sodliers ask them .


I just think that voting for JK does not mean you are a bad american, your a communist, your are anti-military, ALTHOUGH I am fully aware that Democrats always had a lower military budget that those of the Republicans.

And calling Kerry a communist,,,,,,,come one ,,, just come to europe and I show you some nasty hardcore left guys .

PS : I am pro american but allow me to say what I think , I respect Bush , has done great job in Aghansitan ,I supported the OIF,,,just the plan after the war sucked and this cost lot of US Troops since 90% troops deployed in IRAQ are US:

If I were american and I would have to vote ? I would vote for the US troops in IRAq , and listen to them how they see the future-...of course you can t vote for soliders,,,,,,

[Navy]

LOL!

By american definitions about every swedish man is a veteran. Until a couple of years ago serving one year in the military was compulsary.

My dad is a veteran! Where is his medal? Beret?

This makes me really laugh.

And, by the way: Maine Finn, go fook yourself, and erase the word "Finn" in your name. You dont earn it.

[Maine Finn]

LOL!

By american definitions about every swedish man is a veteran. Until a couple of years ago serving one year in the military was compulsary.

My dad is a veteran! Where is his medal? Beret?

This makes me really laugh.

And, by the way: Maine Finn, go fook yourself, and erase the word "Finn" in your name. You dont earn it.

It's in my blood. I can't erase my genetics. "Finn" stays where it is.

[incubz5]

Luxembourger,

There was "no good plan for the reconstruction of iraq"?? You'll have to clarify that one. If there was no "good plan" then logic dictates that a "bad plan" is running the show. By all means, please share with me the details of what makes it bad. Because India wasn't invited to bid for contracts?

The reconstruction of Iraq is going swimmingly. Apart from US, British and Iraqi companies, firms from 60 other nations, described by the Pentagon as “coalition partners” and “force contributing nations”, have been deemed “eligible to compete for contracts funded with US appropriated funds for Iraq reconstruction”. Saudi Arabia is on the list, as are the tiny Pacific nations of Micronesia and Tonga (which have not sent troops).

So India's not on the list? Tragic. But let's ask ourselves why. Or, rather, let's ask the Pentagon why:

"...the exclusion of Indian companies was only from 26 principal reconstruction and relief contracts listed by the U.S. Deputy Secretary for Defence, Paul Wolfowitz, in a memorandum dated December 5 and posted on the Internet four days later. Both Government and U.S. Embassy officials said Indian companies were eligible to act as "sub-contractors" to those who were allocated the "principal projects."

Mr. Wolfowitz has invoked "national security" to prohibit non-troop contributing and "non-coalition partner" nations from participating in the American-funded reconstruction of Iraq:

"It is necessary for the protection of the essential security interests of the United States to limit competition for the prime contracts of these procurements to companies from the United States, Iraq, coalition partners and force contributing nations. Thus, it is clearly in the public interest to limit prime contracts to companies from these countries," he argued."

http://www.hindu.com/2003/12/12/stories/2003121204251300.htm

Sounds good to me.

As for the military voting for Bush, I don't know what soldiers you're talking to, but Bush (not to mention Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al) have been a hit with them and always has been. It's not for nothing that the Democrats attempted to block the military vote in Florida during the 2000 election. Think we'd ever see John Kerry touching down on a flight deck, spending Thanksgiving with the troops, picking up a bullhorn at Ground Zero and promising to kick arse?

Me neither.

[mustamato]

LOL!

By american definitions about every swedish man is a veteran. Until a couple of years ago serving one year in the military was compulsary.

My dad is a veteran! Where is his medal? Beret?

This makes me really laugh.

And, by the way: Maine Finn, go fook yourself, and erase the word "Finn" in your name. You dont earn it.

It's in my blood. I can't erase my genetics. "Finn" stays where it is.

From a racial point of view, I don´t think there is something called "Homo Sapiens Finlander",
especially not considering that the Nordic countries were covered with ice "not
so long ago", before that, well there has been found in example neandertals in
Finland that has been dated to about 120.000 years. But then came the ice, and
when the ice melted:

http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/images/wheredo2_b.jpg


Not long ago, cytogenetic experts stirred up a controversy with their ‘groundbreaking’
findings on the origins of the Finnish and Sámi peoples. Cytogenetics is by no means a
new tool in bioanthopological research, however. As early as the 1960s and ’70s, Finnish
researchers made the significant discovery that one quarter of the Finns’ genetic stock
is Siberian, and three quarters is European in origin.

http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/geeneng.html
More about Finnish genes here

http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/where_do.html
.. and where do finns come from?

http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/images/wheredo3_b.jpg

Thus we have now learned that there is not really something unique with Finnish
genes. So what is a Finn then? Well, I say that there is some basic demands that
must be met.

1.) The person feels like a Finn obviously, which Maine Finn seems to do.
2.) Knows about Finnish culture and traditions, preferrably follows them.
3.) Preferrably knows the language, since language is connected to point two.
4.) Does something positive for the country/people.

Etc, etc. I´m not saying that you are not a Finn good old Maine Finn, but well,
you are not a Finn only because your aunt is. Me thinks not atleast.

[Maine Finn]

LOL!

By american definitions about every swedish man is a veteran. Until a couple of years ago serving one year in the military was compulsary.

My dad is a veteran! Where is his medal? Beret?

This makes me really laugh.

And, by the way: Maine Finn, go fook yourself, and erase the word "Finn" in your name. You dont earn it.

It's in my blood. I can't erase my genetics. "Finn" stays where it is.

From a racial point of view, I don´t think there is something called "Homo Sapiens Finlander",
especially not considering that the Nordic countries were covered with ice "not
so long ago", before that, well there has been found in example neandertals in
Finland that has been dated to about 120.000 years.

Thus we have now learned that there is not really something unique with Finnish
genes. So what is a Finn then? Well, I say that there is some basic demands that
must be met.

1.) The person feels like a Finn obviously, which Maine Finn seems to do.
2.) Knows about Finnish culture and traditions, preferrably follows them.
3.) Preferrably knows the language, since language is connected to point two.
4.) Does something positive for the country/people.

Etc, etc. I´m not saying that you are not a Finn good old Maine Finn, but well,
you are not a Finn only because your aunt is. Me thinks not atleast.

It's not just my aunt. It's my mother, her parents, their parents, and so on.

But, going by your list, I'm not truly a Finn. So, I recant what I said in response to Navy's insult, and will soon be removing "Finn" from my nickname. I would hate to besmirch the good reputation of the country by having a title that I "didn't earn".

[Russian Texan]

It's in my blood.

I'd say it's in your looks... :lol:
jk

[Uninen]

This is all so very "Oh so much BS"! Can we just cut it and get along, and futhermore, Maine Finn you totally misunderstood my post about "your family", or maybe i miss- "spelled" or/and "wrote" it......

Cause the post wasnt "about your family" but about a meaning of the word "veteran" which you and many others havent got right.......

And about you asking somebody that knows, cause my knowledge it seemed, wasnt "good enough" for you..

:|

[Luxembourger]

no good plan for the reconstruction of iraq

the invasion was excellent well planed ,,,,,but the plan after the iraq war lacked , other nations could join the coaltion if they could get any contract .
I don t want etiher UNO troops there ,,,,since UNO disappointed me a lot in the 90s and during the iraq crisis.

There could be plenty more nations being involved in the reconstruction of IRAq if the US adminstration or some of the administtration were not so reluctant on certain points.......which I confess don t know.

Concerning Kerry I mentioned myself that I know that denmocrats always have a little military budget compared to the Republicans one. And tha sucks belive me , But my point is 1) there will American soldiers who came home from iraq who will vote for Kerry......would that make them unpatriotic or communist? I don t think so


Concerning voting the troops ,,,,I just said that in order to remind you that may be they know better what s best for iraq since they are there .

[Luxembourger]

And I just cannot belive the fact that there are not anymore nations in the world which would like to send troops there if some of their little or big demands were met....this would really help give the US troops a break to take breath .

[mustamato]

But, going by your list, I'm not truly a Finn. So, I recant what I said in response to Navy's insult, and will soon be removing "Finn" from my nickname. I would hate to besmirch the good reputation of the country by having a title that I "didn't earn".

Well I think point 1 is the only one that matters, if you feel like you are a Finn,
then I guess you are. Most people doesn´t only have one identity of course,
so it wouldn´t be a revolution in the history of mankind if you felt like an American,
a Finn, a girl, a Maine local patriot etc all in one. Personally I feel 50% Finnish,
49% Swedish and 1% Ruskie. As well as having multiple other identities (student,
male, tall etc).

[Maine Finn]

But, going by your list, I'm not truly a Finn. So, I recant what I said in response to Navy's insult, and will soon be removing "Finn" from my nickname. I would hate to besmirch the good reputation of the country by having a title that I "didn't earn".

Well I think point 1 is the only one that matters, if you feel like you are a Finn,
then I guess you are. Most people doesn´t only have one identity of course,
so it wouldn´t be a revolution in the history of mankind if you felt like an American,
a Finn, a girl, a Maine local patriot etc all in one. Personally I feel 50% Finnish,
49% Swedish and 1% Ruskie. As well as having multiple other identities (student,
male, tall etc).

Right now, what I feel like is ****. It irritates me to no end that some people think they can come here and say whatever they feel like about others and then wonder why those same people get angry.

F*** it. If I could change my nickname, I would, because quite frankly, I'm tired of the crap that I get because of it.

[Jack Mehoff]

Maine American > Maine Finn

[Russian Texan]

1% Ruskie.
Go fook yourself, we don't want your lame looser ass...


As well as having multiple other identities
That is called multiple personality disorder, rather sad actually

[Maine Finn]

1% Ruskie.
Go fook yourself, we don't want your lame looser ass...


As well as having multiple other identities
That is called multiple personality disorder, rather sad actually

I knew there was something wrong with me. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

[incubz5]

"but the plan after the iraq war lacked"

We've liberated a country of 30 million with under 1000 (thus far) US deaths, are turning over power to this freshly minted democracy in a region that has only ever had one other democracy in the history of mankind (Israel), the country has better water and electricity than before, the torture chambers and rape rooms are closed forever...all in about a year; there are no massive civil wars or mass starvation, and those 30 million individuals are humming along fine regardless of a small contingent of radicals who would bomb their children (as happened the other day) to prove a point.

When, I ask you, in the history of warfare, has anything like this ever been done this fast?

MacArthur did not turn sovereignty over to the Japanese after a year of occupation. We lost 50,000 troops in Korea, a non-victory, and another 50,000 in Vietnam, another loss. Those wars took years and years and years.

The simple fact is this: This is as good as war gets. Gulf War 1 was a textook victory sure, but that only involved defeating the 4th largest army in the world. Occupation is a much different story. I remember military analysts predicting upwards of 3000 coaltion casualties from streetfighting in Baghdad alone a year ago. Hasn't happened and it won't.

"There could be plenty more nations being involved in the reconstruction of IRAq"

If 70 or so aren't enough, I don't know what to tell you. Also, as my previous post pointed out, those 70 or so nations were awarded the most sensitive contracts, the subcontracting is open to everyone, and India, France, et al already have a slice of that pie.

"there will American soldiers who came home from iraq who will vote for Kerry......would that make them unpatriotic or communist? I don t think so"

I never referred to anyone as a "communist", so let's put that comment to rest. As for soldiers voting for Kerry, they will be in the minority. The military has always overwhelmingly voted GOP. That's just the way of it.

"that may be they know better what s best for iraq since they are there"

The military sites I go to have comments from soldiers that are of a different sort than what you're saying here. I quite confident the vast majority of them feel good about what we're doing in Iraq.

[Luxembourger]

what we're doing in Iraq.

OF course what the american troops did and are doing in IRAq is amazing and I fully support their action , their are risking their lives so that a nation like iraq can have a new future like Europe had. I am fully aware of this, I just think that the seek for international help after the war could have done better ..by this statment I absolutly don t criticise the american troops who are in my eyes performing in a great way I just think that in the adminstration they could have done better for mor international help that s the point.

And concerning the american soldiers I am refering too are those stationed in western europe , 1Armored Div , 18 MP Bde ,,, etc
everybody of those I talked wants the mission accomplished in iraq and still support the cause ,,but those I talked too did also complain a little bit about how the after war period was managed by the adminsitration -> telling them is a 6 month duty , then it s 8 month , then it s a year etc....

[Luxembourger]

70
70 nations , how many troops are they providing ? 5% ?
italy and other european nations are the 2nd larged troop contributor
that are only a couple of nations which is already great.

But those other 64 nations thy provide not much


now about the reconsturtion of iraq, restoring water electiricity......yes that s great and I complain that the MEDIA does not show that stuff and only the casualties and the bad stuff .

I just think that the number of causalties of US troops could have been avoided .

[Maj C]

I did my graduate thesis on how Marine officers voted in the 2000 election...it was about 8 to 1 for Bush. Although he doesn't have the greatest service record Bush is still popular with the military. (at least officer wise - might be slightly different for enlisted/minority) For the most part, because of the volunteer force - more conservative people tend to join than liberals hence the imbalance. The military as a whole however is apolitical and is prohibited by law from getting involved.

anecdotally I would say Kerry is not so popular - despite his war record - mainly because of his post-Vietnam activities and his voting record...and if we're complaining that the only reason Bush got elected is because he's a rich white man - what do you think Kerry is????

[Luxembourger]

I quite confident the vast majority of them feel good about what we're doing in Iraq.

I would even say every one feels good about what the brave soldiers are doing there


I said --> DOes every soldiers agree on how the Bush administation handled the after war concerning the long deployments and seek of more internatiional troops

I am not a guy sitting here and watching the news as if it s entertaining me like a war movie . I really take it very personnal when Us troops die even if I am not american, because I know what your boys did during WW1+WW2
and during cold war for Europe and I will never forget that.

But I think I have big concerns about the rising death toll of US troops

[incubz5]

"I just think that the seek for international help after the war could have done better"

Bush convinced France, Germany, and Russia to drop the billions in debt Saddam Hussein had incurred with those nations. They grumbled initially, but they did. Quite frankly, if you want to know why they postured they way they did at the UN Security Council prior to the war, just remember that Hussein was one of their biggest business partners. He bought oodles of arms from Russia and actually sold the French oilfields in Iraq (France has no domestic oil, the country runs on nuclear energy, they relied on Hussein for much of their oil) and supplied all three nations with oil irrespective of the embargo.

So, the nations Iraq was most indebted to, the very ones who opposed Hussein's removal, forgave billions in debt.

Then there is the International Iraq Reconstruction Fund. Virtually every nation worth its salt on the planet has ponied up millions for that, India included.

What more do you want?

"I just think that the number of causalties of US troops could have been avoided"

We got as much help as we could from the feckless UN nations. Bush deliberated with the UN for 15 or so months before even going into this. He gave them every chance to back it, and every chance to help once we went in.

As for American casualties, like I said, it doesn't get any better than this. My grandfather got shot up at a place called Guadalcanal when he served in WWII. There were more American casualties on the fighting on that little island than there have been so far in this entire war. We must have perspective when we discuss this. The liberation of Iraq has gone about as good as the liberation of a nation of 30 million comprised of three disctinct sets of peoples is going to go.

[incubz5]

"But I think I have big concerns about the rising death toll of US troops"

We're all concerned about any troops getting killed, but this is war, and in a war Marines might get killed. Imagine that! Pat Tillman did not turn down millions to enlist because he thought it would be like a desk job, much less safe. Nor did any Marine duking it out with killers in Fallujah right now. At least we have, unlike Vietnam, an all-volunteer force.


But on the subject of the numer of dead. like I said, no country this size has ever been liberated with this low a body count. And one must understand something about these deaths. They're not just in the name of liberating Iraq, but they're also sacrifices in the name of winning the war on terror. It's evident to everyone now that many foreign fighters (READ: Terrorists) are pouring into Iraq to fight us. In a sense, it's no different than our efforts in Afghanistan.

[Parzival]

John Kerry is a hero!
I hope he will win the electrion.

[mustamato]

1% Ruskie.
Go fook yourself, we don't want your lame looser ass...

Well actually, my mothers father had Loganoff as surname. So it´s more than
1%, but I´m denying the rest of it. I mean... Russian :oops:

But I guess this means that I can call you my brother :hug:

[usa320]

he spent a year driving boats around nam. From what i read he made a ton of stupid moves and mistakes durring that year that could have cost lives.

I also find it disgusting that less than a year after he got home, he was protesting against the very men he fought along side.

[Macs.]

he spent a year driving boats around nam. From what i read he made a ton of stupid moves and mistakes durring that year that could have cost lives.

I also find it disgusting that less than a year after he got home, he was protesting against the very men he fought along side.

Well, after all I think this is better than running away like Bush did. :roll:

And the Vietnam war was an ugly war, with thousands of civilan deaths, so it was right to protest against it !

[NcDeuce]

Everyone has a past. Just because Kerry won a bunch of medals is fine and dandy but look what he did after the war. Those badges and wounds sure didn't look like they meant much when he was attending those anti-war rallies, huh?

[Merik]

First off, Mustamato why are you even posting this crap? You live in Europe and arent even an American citizen so why do you even give a flying flip who John Kerry is? Secondly, you have no influence in making the American citizen's(like me) vote for the wrong guy who happens to be Kerry. And lastly, a veteran is ANY ONE THAT HAS SERVED IN THE ARMED SERVICES, whether it be during peacetime or wartime. If its war time they are war vets, hence the title.

[Merik]

he spent a year driving boats around nam. From what i read he made a ton of stupid moves and mistakes durring that year that could have cost lives.

I also find it disgusting that less than a year after he got home, he was protesting against the very men he fought along side.

Well, after all I think this is better than running away like Bush did. :roll:

And the Vietnam war was an ugly war, with thousands of civilan deaths, so it was right to protest against it !

How did Bush run away? Seriously, just because he joined the National Guard doesnt mean he "ran" away so tell me how did he run away.

[Maine Finn]

[How did Bush run away? Seriously, just because he joined the National Guard doesnt mean he "ran" away so tell me how did he run away.

Good point. I'm joining the Guard. Am I "running away" because I'm not able to go AD?

[Merik]

[How did Bush run away? Seriously, just because he joined the National Guard doesnt mean he "ran" away so tell me how did he run away.

Good point. I'm joining the Guard. Am I "running away" because I'm not able to go AD?

Your joining the Guard MF? Sweet, whats your MOS? I dont know if Maine or any other state has the new S.E.A.R.s recruit program but if they do you will enjoy it.

[Maine Finn]

[How did Bush run away? Seriously, just because he joined the National Guard doesnt mean he "ran" away so tell me how did he run away.

Good point. I'm joining the Guard. Am I "running away" because I'm not able to go AD?

Your joining the Guard MF? Sweet, whats your MOS? I dont know if Maine or any other state has the new S.E.A.R.s recruit program but if they do you will enjoy it.

MOS = MP. I doubt Maine has anything "new". Everything's so bass-acwkards around the State right now, it's crazy. Our governor is an idiot. :|

But yeah, it's great. I was going to go AD straight out of high school, but then I got accepted to college, so it's M.N.G. for this kid.

[HELEX]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/jd/2004/jd040423.gif

[incubz5]

Touting war credentials as being tantamount to how someone will serve as President is ridiculous and crass. Let me roll out some names here for the Kerry Purple Heart Club:

Abe Lincoln

Franklin Delanor Rooosevelt

Ronald Reagan

Now let me roll out three more.

Dwight D. Eisenhower, JFK, Jimmy Carter

The first three are not war veterans, two of the last three are and one (Carter) was a naval officer. Which three would you want running the country in a time of war? Korea, Bay of Pigs, Iran...those ring any bells? After the capture of Gary Powers, the pilot of a U2 spying on the USSR, Ike denied the incident at first, then referred to himself as a kid caught w/ his hand in the cookie jar when the Soviets produced a living Gary Powers. I don't remember Bush doing any waffling when one of our spyplanes collided w/ a Chinese mig. I remember him being resolute and sending the Chinese a message regarding our captured operators: Let them go.

The mental toughness necessary to deal with hot situations, global threats and murderous thugs is not something that comes from purple hearts or service, it comes from a singular vision, and a firm character resolve.

Look at Kerry's back-and-forth waffling on every vote he's ever cast. The guy has all the resolve of a goldfish in shark-infested waters. He's not a leader, he's a bureaucrat, and to suggest that someone who has spent 30 years attempting to cut every military budget that came his way, every major weapons program, even military pay...to suggest that this Beacon Hill liberal is going to be a firm Commander-In-Chief able to do the dirty work that we need done, is sheer nonsense.

[Luxembourger]

France, Germany, and Russia
yup you are right on that , but I didn t mean those countries for the reconstruction of iraq but other like countreis from moderate arabian states .

The fact that germany was against the war is excusable
Belive me I am quite mad too at FRance that they did not join the coaltion since they had still economic ties together.

The fact that soldiers die in a war , I mean that s understandable, but if you can reduce the death tolll would be a good thing.

I am just convinced that there are still many other nations ready to send troops there if the US government reaches a deal with them.
what about if moderate arab states send each 5000 troops there ? would be great .

[incubz5]

"moderate arabian states"

There's no such thing.

"The fact that germany was against the war is excusable"

How so? They were motivated by greed just like the French and Russians were. The Chinese were just being thorny, but the French, Russians, and Germans were doing big buisiness with Hussein. Illegally, I might add, as far as oil goes. The Russians, well, there's no dictator they wouldn't sell a MiG to.

"but if you can reduce the death tolll would be a good thing"

Agreed. I've got an idea to that end: How about we kill the enemy?

"what about if moderate arab states send each 5000 troops there ? would be great"

Name one possible contender.

[sethen]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/jd/2004/jd040423.gif

rofl rofl rofl

[Luxembourger]

Agreed. I've got an idea to that end: How about we kill the enemy?


agree on that too , but the media will then show only one side , showing images of civilians accidentaly killed because they were used as human shields....

I think sometimes the media should not show everything , just let the marines do their job whitout the media covering everything.



concerning the moderate states,,,,,,jordan , maroco , egypt,,,,,,,yes I must agree that a lot of people living in those states don t like America.....but we could make an attempt with that.




"The fact that germany was against the war is excusable"

How so? They were motivated by greed just like the French and Russians were

Germany did not join OIf because the country is still haunted by the WW2 feeling, so I think they didn t like seeing themselves invading a country.

[mustamato]

First off, Mustamato why are you even posting this crap? You live in Europe and arent even an American citizen so why do you even give a flying flip who John Kerry is? Secondly, you have no influence in making the American citizen's(like me) vote for the wrong guy who happens to be Kerry. And lastly, a veteran is ANY ONE THAT HAS SERVED IN THE ARMED SERVICES, whether it be during peacetime or wartime. If its war time they are war vets, hence the title.

I´d say that most Europeans that wants Kerry to become prez in USA is not
really pro-Kerry, they are just anti-Bush. It is of course not that Kerry will become
some pacifistic prez that doesn´t harm rest of the world in any way. But I do
think that he is interested in re-establishing old friendship, and signing treaties
that is to the benefit for the whole world. In example Kyoto and so forth.

And it´s naive to say that we as Europeans shouldn´t care. The problem is that
US have this "worlds police"-role they have taken upon themselves, this is foreign
policy. And foreign policy usually means that people get killed. Not we Europeans
though, but of course these eternal Arabs. We Europeans are your friends, we
just want to give you some friendly advice. Vote Kerry and save Americans lives :)

Btw, I guess I can start to call myself a veteran as well. :P

[Delta Niner]

Also I believe he was in 'Nam for a whole month.

November 17, 1968 – Upon completion of his training, Kerry
reports for duty to Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14, Cam Ranh
Bay, South Vietnam.
Early April, 1969 – Kerry departs Vietnam

How come he only did his tour for only 5 months or less? I thought those US servicemen did their tour for 12 months. 10 months if your a medic right?

[mustamato]

Also I believe he was in 'Nam for a whole month.

November 17, 1968 – Upon completion of his training, Kerry
reports for duty to Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14, Cam Ranh
Bay, South Vietnam.
Early April, 1969 – Kerry departs Vietnam

How come he only did his tour for only 5 months or less? I thought those US servicemen did their tour for 12 months. 10 months if your a medic right?

Well, how about reading what is written in this thread? I´m sure you´ll find the answer.
(Hint: He was wounded three times).

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

3 wounds you get to go home a free man in Vietnam. Thats assuming you survived.

I dont have alot to comment on this thread, but I would like to point out that he didnt kill "terrorists" he killed VC.

[Merik]

Vote Kerry and save Americans lives :)




WTF!!!!!!!!!!???? How is Kerry going to save American lives? With the policy he has in mind it will be a lot like Clinton in office, just letting terrorists walk through the front door planning on killing ANOTHER 3,000 innocent American lives.

[EchoSierra2]

Mate, it's just mashedpotato trying to make Iraq look like Vietnam, by calling them Terrorists, he thinks the VC/NVA were freedom fighters just like the Insurgents.
Basically, hes being his usual ****head self, and should be ignored by all people wanting their inteligence not to be insulted.

HAHAHAHAHA!

[EchoSierra2]

I'd vote for Carlos Hathcock.

OORAH! The WHITE FEATHER LIVES!

[mrfloppy]

As far as the discussion Bush vs. Kerry is concerned - I don't know enough about Kerry's and Bush's military service to take the liberty of commenting on it. Like most Europeans I don't like the Bush administration (except for Colin Powell), as it led its' country into war, losing the focus on terrorism to try to settle old scores with some third-class dictator. On the other hand, as they started the war on Iraq, the Bush administration should face the music and not be let off the hook by a change of government.

Regarding some other part of this tread:

Well, incubz5, I followed your discussion with Luxembourger, and there are some errors in your statements:


..Gulf War 1 was a textbook victory sure, but that only involved defeating the 4th largest army in the world...

The 4th largest doesn't mean the 4th strongest - the Iraqi army was already exhausted from the Iraq-Iran conflict during the eighties. So this army was clearly no match for any western force, at least in open battle. Since 1991 it's capabilities steadily declined to the point where it couldn't even resist a much smaller force of approximately 145 000 troops. Just my 2 cents on the historic value of this campaign.


..The military sites I go to have comments from soldiers that are of a different sort than what you're saying here. I quite confident the vast majority of them feel good about what we're doing in Iraq...

What?? Do you believe that the opinions, being voiced by the people e.g. over here, are by any means representative of any group of individuals (be it US/French/Canadian/Finnish etc. soldiers/civilians or whatsoever)? There's people over here, saying things like "nuke 'em!" - would you say, that they speak for the majority of their respective population (e.g. US)?!


Bush convinced France, Germany, and Russia to drop the billions in debt Saddam Hussein had incurred with those nations.... Quite frankly, if you want to know why they postured they way they did at the UN Security Council prior to the war, just remember that Hussein was one of their biggest business partners....

Hussein was one of Germany's biggest business partners? Where did you get that from? Can you prove this statement? That's one of the most ridiculous statements, I ever had the "pleasure" to read over here!


...So, the nations Iraq was most indebted to, the very ones who opposed Hussein's removal, forgave billions in debt....

Germany is owed only about $2 billion (similar to the USA) of Iraqs overall external debts of up to $130 billion. Those debts were mostly run up during development of Iraq's infrastructure (more than 20 years ago).Middle East Countrys like Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait are Iraq's leading creditors.


Luxembourger wrote:"The fact that Germany was against the war is excusable"

incubz5 replied:
How so? They were motivated by greed just like the French and Russians were. The Chinese were just being thorny, but the French, Russians, and Germans were doing big buisiness with Hussein. Illegally, I might add, as far as oil goes.

Once again - big business? Oil? When did Germany do big business with Saddam? What kind of business are you talking about? As far as oil is concerned, Russia, Norway and UK are, with more than 60%, Germany's largest suppliers. Only 1/5 of our oil is supplied by OPEC-countries, of which Iraq isn't even worth mentioning.

After losing two World Wars we did our best to learn to walk on the paths of diplomacy, as long as possible. The majority in Germany opposed this war, as they didn't perceive Iraq as an imminent threat. The government took this into account, as they wanted to win an election, but they forgot about diplomacy and alienated their US-allies - that's all!

[MEGR]

Hey. Carlos Hatchcock killed 93 vietcong, and saved a bunch of marines from a burning amtrack, suffering 3rd degree burns on all of his body.

[EchoSierra2]

Hey. Carlos Hatchcock killed 93 vietcong, and saved a bunch of marines from a burning amtrack, suffering 3rd degree burns on all of his body. If anyone gets the chance take a read of "MARINE SNIPER" by Charles Henderson. Great accounts of Gunney.

[sethen]

I did my graduate thesis on how Marine officers voted in the 2000 election...it was about 8 to 1 for Bush. Although he doesn't have the greatest service record Bush is still popular with the military. (at least officer wise - might be slightly different for enlisted/minority) For the most part, because of the volunteer force - more conservative people tend to join than liberals hence the imbalance. The military as a whole however is apolitical and is prohibited by law from getting involved.

anecdotally I would say Kerry is not so popular - despite his war record - mainly because of his post-Vietnam activities and his voting record...and if we're complaining that the only reason Bush got elected is because he's a rich white man - what do you think Kerry is????

1. Hey, I agree Kerry went over the top after the war, its a bad mistake! I feel the man is genuine though.

2.The Texas Bush Dynasty is corrupt and so is Florida.

3. Both are flawed.

4. But I am NOT voting for a religious fanatic from Texas.

5. Texas=Israel=Texas. I don't put foreigners interest in with mine UNLIKE the protestant fanatics from Texas!!!!!!!!

6. Bush has proven he will lie. I know he lied REGARDLESS of apologists. I will vote for Kerry!

7. But it doesn't matter anyway because of the Electoral vote ala Florida! woot

[M1A2U2]

I think one of the main problems with liberals on this site is that they dont respond when somebody lists a fact that proves them totally wrong. For example when someone said that if Bush is a liar about WMDs then so is John Kerry, no liberals responded...instead they continued to call Bush a liar. Very intelligent. I think it speaks wonders about liberals, as does this quote from LBJ

"Im gonna have those ******s voting democrat for the next 200 years"

Its ok for him to say it because hes a demo. God help em if bush said it.

[Midav]

Just curious.. where has everyone served?

My personal story is this:

Military brat for most of my life. Turned 18, took ASVAB, scored good on ASVAB, but failed the physical... asthma.

Could have taken desk job or something of the like, but not what I like to do.

So, no real military experience.

Now a question to all: If you served in the military, did you serve in a combat zone? Please be honest.

And yes, this has to do with those opposing Jack Mehoff. From what I have read, it sounds like the man has been to Afghanistan.

And no, I won't second guess someone that tells me they have served in a combat zone.

Hey, if you lie, you have to live with yourself. If someone's too stupid to understand what I mean by that, hey, you have to live with yourself.

So, where has everyone been?

As said, I'm just curious and know there are plenty of people on here that have served in "hot" zones.

[hood]

Saying that Bush ran away from service in Vietnam because he joined the National Guard is horse hockey. Look how many reservists and NG's are currently over in Iraq and Afghanistan. NG's in Bush's own air unit went to Vietnam. Basically he lucked out that he wasn't called, but technically he could have been at any time if they decided he was needed. There's countless tv documentaries and online articles about National Guard Special Forces troops being in Afghanistan right now.

[hood]

3 purple hearts and a silver star and a gleaming review from all who he served under and above speak for themselves......

Also, this isn't true. His commanding officer came out against Kerry right after he got back from Vietnam, saying that his injuries were superficial at best and hardly warranting of a purple heart. He's also come out again now with the same message that he didn't think Kerry's service was anything worth mentioning. For anyone wanting to see how Kerry flat out lied during various testimonies after he returned from Vietnam, have a look at this page:

http://www.nationalreview.com/owens/owens200401270825.asp

This isn't a matter of having a difference of opinion, but saying things were true that had zero actual fact backing them up in terms of numbers and figures, time after time.

[obd]

Hey Hood, I have a question for you: Did Kerry award himself the three purple hearts or did others award them to him?> IT doesnt make any sense for the CO to have come out against Kerry for "superficial war wounds"....... Kerry was wounded in combat and whether or not they were severe and debilitating woulds or not they were still wounds and testimant to his bravery...........

Also, I have heard a contrary report from his CO in an interview in more modern times and the CO had nothing but praise for Kerry.. Perhaps you are confusing things Hood??? IT just doesnt make sense to blame someone for recieving purple hearts does it Hood??? Especially just after Vietnam when you say it happened... What purpose would it serve to come out against a war hero with three purple hearts just after he got sent home??? Sorry Hood, just makes no sense to me, especially when I consider very recent interviews with his men who all said Kerry was a true hero... When 50 people say a man is a hero, plus he has three purple hearts and a silver star, I tend to question when one man comes out against Kerry like that... Perhaps he had an axe to grind over some personal issues between the two???

[Jack Mehoff]

Hey Hood, I have a question for you: Did Kerry award himself the three purple hearts or did others award them to him?> IT doesnt make any sense for the CO to have come out against Kerry for "superficial war wounds"....... Kerry was wounded in combat and whether or not they were severe and debilitating woulds or not they were still wounds and testimant to his bravery...........

Also, I have heard a contrary report from his CO in an interview in more modern times and the CO had nothing but praise for Kerry.. Perhaps you are confusing things Hood??? IT just doesnt make sense to blame someone for recieving purple hearts does it Hood??? Especially just after Vietnam when you say it happened... What purpose would it serve to come out against a war hero with three purple hearts just after he got sent home??? Sorry Hood, just makes no sense to me, especially when I consider very recent interviews with his men who all said Kerry was a true hero... When 50 people say a man is a hero, plus he has three purple hearts and a silver star, I tend to question when one man comes out against Kerry like that... Perhaps he had an axe to grind over some personal issues between the two???

Thats funny, aren't you the same doucebag who comdemned PFC Lynch for her award? rofl

[hood]

The CO was hardly the only one to say that Kerry's a shmoe. I'll find the article that details it all and post it here. Please post the link that shows the 50 guys that served with Kerry saying he's great and wonderful, that you mentioned so I can have a look. Might as well keep the facts solid in both directions.

[Trigger]

*waiting patiently for obd to call Hood a m u t h a f # @ & e r for opposing John Kerry*

[Jack Mehoff]

m u t h a f # @ & e r

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

http://www.nosnam.com/jordan/weird/341_G
;)

[Merik]

http://www.nosnam.com/jordan/weird/341_G
;)

Dude, did you just call Hood a retard? ;)

[Nosnam]

Heh!!

I just noticed militaryphotos.net in my apache logs, had to see what it was all about.

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð, how did you even know about my gallery? It's not even really public yet, except among my friends and personal forum ;) Maybe it's a little more public than I thought

[Merik]

Welcome to hell Nosnam, hope you enjoy your stay.


Just j/k man, really welcome aboard.

[Saranof]

This thread was kinda interesting
Since it quickly lost the point, as usual.

Anyone seen that test somwwhere, where you get to chose three candidates for presidency?
one's an alcoholic, the other one smokes opium and so on. the third one is a vegitarian, an atrist and served his country in war
One is roosevelt, another Churchill, and the last one is Hitler.

Not that Kerry is. The point I'm trying to make, is, that choosing a candidate by how many wars he/she served in is stupid.

Just my thoughts ;)

[HELEX]

Thats no argument, do you know Churchills career in the Military? He was in more than one Battle...

[Maine Finn]

Thats no argument, do you know Churchills career in the Military? He was in more than one Battle...

Can you support that?

[HELEX]

Winston Churchill, the son of Randolph Churchill, a Conservative politician, was born in Blenheim Palace, Woodstock, on 30th November, 1874. His mother, Jennie Jerome, was the daughter of Leonard Jerome, a New York businessman.
After being educated at Harrow he went to the Royal Military College at Sandhurst. Churchill joined the Fourth Hussars in 1895 and saw action on the Indian north-west frontier and in the Sudan where he took part in the Battle of Omdurman (1898).

While in the army Churchill supplied military reports for the Daily Telegraph and wrote books such as The Story of the Malakand Field Force (1898) and The River War (1899).

After leaving the British Army in 1899, Churchill worked as a war correspondent for the Morning Post. While reporting the Boer War in South Africa he was taken prisoner by the Boers but made headline news when he escaped. On returning to England he wrote about his experiences in the book, London to Ladysmith (1900).

In the 1900 General Election Churchill was elected as the Conservative MP for Oldham. As a result of reading, Poverty, A Study of Town Life by Seebohm Rowntree he became a supporter of social reform. In 1904, unconvinced by his party leaders desire for change, Churchill decided to join the Liberal Party.

In the 1906 General Election Churchill won North West Manchester and immediately became a member of the new Liberal government as Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies. When Herbert Asquith replaced Henry Campbell-Bannerman as Prime Minister in 1908 he promoted Churchill to his cabinet as President of the Board of Trade. While in this post he carried through important social legislation including the establishment of employment exchanges.

On 12th September 1908 Churchill married Clementine Ogilvy Spencer and the following year published a book on his political philosophy, Liberalism and the Social Problem (1909).

Following the 1910 General Election Churchill became Home Secretary. Churchill introduced several reforms to the prison system, including the provision of lecturers and concerts for prisoners and the setting up of special after-care associations to help convicts after they had served their sentence. However, Churchill was severely criticized for using troops to maintain order during a Welsh miners's strike.

Churchill became First Lord of the Admiralty in October 1911 where he helped modernize the navy. Churchill was one of the first people to grasp the military potential of aircraft and in 1912 he set up the Royal Naval Air Service. He also established an Air Department at the Admiralty so as to make full use of this new technology. Churchill was so enthusiastic about these new developments that he took flying lessons.

On the outbreak of war in 1914, Churchill joined the War Council. However, he was blamed for the failure at the Dardanelles Campaign in 1915 and was moved to the post of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Unhappy about not having any power to influence the Government's war policy, he rejoined the British Army and commanded a battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers on the Western Front.

When David Lloyd George replaced Herbert Asquith as Prime Minister, he brought Churchill back into the government as Minister of Munitions and for the final year of the war, Churchill was in charge of the production of tanks, aeroplanes, guns and shells.

Churchill also served under David Lloyd George as Minister of War and Air (1919-20) and Colonial Secretary (1921-22). Churchill created great controversy over his policies in Iraq. It was estimated that around 25,000 British and 80,000 Indian troops would be needed to control the country. However, he argued that if Britain relied on air power, you could cut these numbers to 4,000 (British) and 10,000 (Indian). The government was convinced by this argument and it was decided to send the recently formed Royal Air Force to Iraq.

An uprising of more than 100,000 armed tribesmen took place in 1920. Over the next few months the RAF dropped 97 tons of bombs killing 9,000 Iraqis. This failed to end the resistance and Arab and Kurdish uprisings continued to pose a threat to British rule. Churchill suggested that chemical weapons should be used "against recalcitrant Arabs as an experiment." He added "I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes to spread a lively terror" in Iraq.

The divisions in the Liberal Party led to Churchill being defeated by E. D. Morel at Dundee in the 1922 General Election. Churchill now rejoined the Conservative Party and was successfully elected to represent Epping in the 1924 General Election.

Stanley Baldwin, the leader of the new Conservative administration, appointed Churchill as Chancellor of the Exchequer. In 1925 Churchill controversially returned Britain the the Gold Standard and the following year took a strong line against the General Strike. Churchill edited the Government's newspaper, the British Gazette, during the dispute where he argued that "either the country will break the General Strike, or the General Strike will break the country."

With the defeat of the Conservative government in 1929, Churchill lost office. When Ramsay MacDonald formed the National Government in 1931 Churchill, who was now seen as a right-wing extremist, was not invited to join the Cabinet. He spent the next few years concentrating on his writing, including the publication of the History of the English Speaking Peoples.

After Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party gained power in Germany in 1933, Churchill became a leading advocate of rearmament. He was also a staunch critic of Neville Chamberlain and the Conservative government's appeasement policy. In 1939 Churchill controversially argued that Britain and France should form of a military alliance with the Soviet Union.

On the outbreak of the Second World War Churchill was appointed First Lord of the Admiralty and on 4th April 1940 became chairman of the Military Coordinating Committee. Later that month the German Army invaded and occupied Norway. The loss of Norway was a considerable setback for Neville Chamberlain and his policies for dealing with Nazi Germany.

On 8th May the Labour Party demanded a debate on the Norwegian campaign and this turned into a vote of censure. At the end of the debate 30 Conservatives voted against Chamberlain and a further 60 abstained. Chamberlain now decided to resign and on 10th May, 1940, George VI appointed Churchill as prime minister. Later that day the German Army began its Western Offensive and invaded the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. Two days later German forces entered France.

Churchill formed a coalition government and placed leaders of the Labour Party such as Clement Attlee, Ernest Bevin, Herbert Morrison, Stafford Cripps and Hugh Dalton in key positions. He also brought in another long-time opponent of Chamberlain, Anthony Eden, as his secretary of state for war. Later that year Eden replaced Lord Halifax as foreign secretary.

Churchill also developed a strong personal relationship with Franklin D. Roosevelt and this led to the sharing and trading of war supplies. The Lend Lease agreement of March 1941 allowed Britain to order war goods from the United States on credit.

Although he provided strong leadership the war continued to go badly for Britain and after a series of military defeats Churchill had to face a motion of no confidence in Parliament. However, he maintained the support of most members of the House of Commons and won by 475 votes to 25.

Churchill continued to be criticized for meddling in military matters and tended to take too much notice of the views of his friends such as Frederick Lindemann rather than his military commanders. In April 1941 he made the serious mistake of trying to save Greece by weakening his forces fighting the Desert War.

One of the major contributions made by Churchill to eventual victory was his ability to inspire the British people to greater effort by making public broadcasts on significant occasions. A brilliant orator he was a tireless source of strength to people experiencing the sufferings of the Blitz.

After Pearl Harbor Churchill worked closely with Franklin D. Roosevelt to ensure victory over Germany and Japan. He was also a loyal ally of the Soviet Union after Adolf Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa in June, 1941.

Churchill held important meetings with Franklin D. Roosevelt and Joseph Stalin at Teheran (November, 1943) and Yalta (February, 1945). Although Churchill's relationship with Stalin was always difficult he managed to successfully develop a united strategy against the Axis powers.

Despite intense pressure from Stalin to open a second-front by landing Allied troops in France in 1943, Churchill continued to argue that this should not happen until the defeat of Nazi Germany was guaranteed. The D-Day landings did not take place until June, 1944 and this delay enabled the Red Army to capture territory from Germany in Eastern Europe.

In public Churchill accepted plans for social reform drawn up by William Beveridge in 1944. However, he was unable to convince the electorate that he was as committed to these measures as much as Clement Attlee and the Labour Party. In the 1945 General Election Churchill's attempts to compare a future Labour government with Nazi Germany backfired and Attlee won a landslide victory.

Churchill became leader of the opposition and when visiting the United States in March 1946, he made his famous Iron Curtain speech at Fulton, Missouri. He suffered the first of several strokes in August 1946 but this information was kept from the general public and he continued to lead the Conservative Party.

Churchill returned to power after the 1951 General Election. After the publication of his six volume, The Second World War, Churchill was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature. Churchill's health continued to deteriorate and in 1955 he reluctantly retired from politics. Winston Churchill died on 24th January, 1965.

[Luxembourger]

He was in more than one Battle..


battle -> OMDURMAN

[rob]

This is a man that denounced his military service.

This is a man that called all veterans "baby killers" and murderers yet is proud that he himself killed people

this is a man that confesed to war crimes includeing the burning of villages.

this is a man that supporta movent of people to go to canada to dodge the draft.

This is a man who was the head of the antiwar movement.

This was a man who had an alliance with the treason queen herself who was famous for befriending the enemy.

This is a man that now embraces what he once denounced and is now considered a war hero.

This is a man that is despised by the veterans of foreign wars organization.

This is a man who may become our president?

This is a man that voted down many bills to increase pay for soldiers and to buy them better equitment.

This man is John Kerry.

I know he wont be getting my vote, and the "i care about the veterans" bs hes trying to pull off is the biggest piece of bull**** ever.

personally i think it is sick what he said about veterans and now is trying to pull this ****.

[HELEX]

This is a man that called all veterans "baby killers" and murderers yet is proud that he himself killed people

So? Show me when he did say that? Thats just BS he never did.



this is a man that supporta movent of people to go to canada to dodge the draft.

He did? Are you sure?


This is a man who was the head of the antiwar movement.


He was only one of many, and absolutely not the Head.


This was a man who had an alliance with the treason queen herself who was famous for befriending the enemy.


They never were "allies", they just were speaker on the same event. They just changed 3 or 4 Words.


This is a man that now embraces what he once denounced and is now considered a war hero.

Did he? No, the Press did. Thats a very big Difference....

So, you produced a lot of hot air but nothing more.....

[rob]

actually there was a 71 meat the press where he said much of that stuff. and he did flash around his service record.

all he did which i said is true.

"They never were "allies", they just were speaker on the same event. They just changed 3 or 4 Words. "

if they wherent allies why the hell would they be speaking at the same even say the same thing? to me that shows that they are allies. take it or leave it.

[HELEX]

I would like to see that proofs...... :D

[Merik]

I would like to see that proofs...... :D

Why? You cant vote for him.

[rob]

I would like to see that proofs...... :D

find the clip of the 71 meat the press, they play in on american tv sometimes. o another you not american so why the hell do you care.

[HELEX]

I care because Bush is the Antichrist :lol:

If he would just messing the US I wouldnt care, but he's messing up the whole World so I care.

[rob]

personally i think bush is doing better the clinton did.

[TheBlackHand]

I posted my impression of the proof already...but I suppose "proof" is all in how a person wants to read it.


Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations

April 23, 1971

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term Winter Soldier is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriots and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out....

In our opinion and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone in peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Viet Cong, North Vietnamese or American.

We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how monies from American taxes were used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by the flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs and search and destroy missions, as well as by Viet Cong terrorism - and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

We watched the United States falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings." We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater. We watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the hill for reoccupation by the North Vietnamese. We watched pride allow the most unimportant battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point, and so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 81s and Fire Base 6s, and so many others.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese.

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?....We are here in Washington to say that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country - the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions such as the use of weapons; the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search and destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say. It is part and parcel of everything.

An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of Alcatraz put it to me very succinctly. He told me how as a boy on an Indian reservation he had watched television and he used to cheer the cowboys when they came in and shot the Indians, and then suddenly one day he stopped in Vietnam and he said, "my God, I am doing to these people the very same thing that was done to my people," and he stopped. And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this thing has to end.

We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We're here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others? Where are they now that we, the men they sent off to war, have returned? These are the commanders who have deserted their troops. And there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The marines say they never even leave their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They've left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching behind them in the sun in this country....

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission - to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so when thirty years from now our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.

[Operation Ivy]

Hey Hood, I have a question for you: Did Kerry award himself the three purple hearts or did others award them to him?> IT doesnt make any sense for the CO to have come out against Kerry for "superficial war wounds"....... Kerry was wounded in combat and whether or not they were severe and debilitating woulds or not they were still wounds and testimant to his bravery...........

Also, I have heard a contrary report from his CO in an interview in more modern times and the CO had nothing but praise for Kerry.. Perhaps you are confusing things Hood??? IT just doesnt make sense to blame someone for recieving purple hearts does it Hood??? Especially just after Vietnam when you say it happened... What purpose would it serve to come out against a war hero with three purple hearts just after he got sent home??? Sorry Hood, just makes no sense to me, especially when I consider very recent interviews with his men who all said Kerry was a true hero... When 50 people say a man is a hero, plus he has three purple hearts and a silver star, I tend to question when one man comes out against Kerry like that... Perhaps he had an axe to grind over some personal issues between the two???

Thats funny, aren't you the same doucebag who comdemned PFC Lynch for her award? rofl

hahahaha pwned (now waiting for his reply) :D