The Best Sniper in the History of Warfare?

[Caraway]

Do you know who is the best sniper of all times? If you don't know, guess! I'll correct you later on. Those of you who know that already, don't answer. I wan't to know what is the majoritys' impression of the best sniper (what country, how many kills and in what time, etc.).

[Scottie]

The Barret .50?

[spectre5]

I think he is talking about a person, and everybody should know this.

:)

t.
Antti

[Caraway]

Yes, I'm talking about a person, a man.

[MolliG]

That Finnish (WWII) guy everybody goes on about here... Can't remember the name.

[Scottie]

The russian! Vasilyvasilkov or somthing like that?

[Caraway]

The russian! Vasilyvasilkov or somthing like that?
No, it was not Russian. MolliG try to remember his name....

[ShotOver]

Hrmm.. let me guess, A Finnish bloke?

:|

[-Max2-]

Oops. Delete please...

(Didnt see the "those of you who know that already, don't answer" ;) )

[ShotOver]

Wow, Russia lost alot of troopers.

[Caraway]

Hrmm.. let me guess, A Finnish bloke?

:|

Yes! We just need the name now...

[Shake n Bake]

some Finnish guy



he had like 500+ kills

[MolliG]

Simo Häyhä

[Caraway]

Simo Häyhä
Correct!
http://my_gunsite.tripod.com/mygunsite/id25.html
http://www.snipercountry.com/sniphistory.htm#SimoHayha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%E4yh%E4

[Uninen]

:roll: Yeah, talk about killing spree.. us crazy Finns. ;)

[*Teryan*]

If your going by kill numbers yes, Finns at the top. But a snipers job is not always to go on a massive killing spree. Their are many others who would argue that Carlos Hathacock was the greatest sniper of all time. If you read up on some of his storys (I think you should, great stores), he did some pretty extreme things. Things like Elephant Valley, the viper sniper, the French intergator, the General, longest shot, etc.

Elephant Valley was where he and his spotter (John Burk) came across an NVA unit crossing some rice fields in the open. They held them their for five days, and at the end of the fifth day they called in arterly and pulled out. One guy survived (and was captured). He received 30 confirmed kills for it. Some of the tactics they used were really clevar. Like at night they would call in fliars to keep the light on, then let up for a couple of minuts they come on again, only to shoot the people running for cover.
The NVA General he shot was a amazing thing too. He cralwed across an open field for two days and one night to reach his shooting position. Coming so close that they enemy was within feet of him at times. He went on his side and belly crawling a couple of inches at a time. When the general showed him self it took one shot and it was over, cralwed out in 12 hours.

I recomend reading: "Marine Sniper: 93 confimred kills", and "Silent Warrior" and "One Shot, One Kill" was also a good book that had some stories about him in it.

http://www.snipercountry.com/sniphistory.htm#Hathcock

[MEGR]

Carlos Hathcock, Randy Shugart, Gary Gordon, Chuck Mawhinney (103 kills in 'nam) The Russian Sniper dude from ww2, and I guess the finnish dude (don't know much about him though).

[Caraway]

Well, Simo Häyhä shot +505 enemies within 9 months (before getting a bullet in his face, survived althought) with Mosin-Nagant rifle. That rifle had no scopes or so. Simo Häyhä is the supreme sniper, no what anyone else is saying.
Carlos Hathacock may have been a very good sniper, but he never archieved +505 kills. That's all I have to say.

[Uninen]

Simo Häyhä only served as sniper in Winter war, which lasted for 105 days......... but he didnt even serve "fully" in it as he was shot to the face with explosive bullet........


On March 6, 1940, Häyhä was shot in the jaw and went into a coma. He regained consciousness on March 13, the day that peace was declared.

More than 500 kills, in 98 days. ;)

[Zentrum Jagdkampf]

Matthias Hetzenauer, Josef Allerberger or Bruno Sutkus!Wehrmacht guys

[Uninen]

Zentrum Jagdkampf,

The "thing" is settled already, and correct answer has been found. Nobody beats or even comes close to Häyhä with 505 confirmed kills. ;)

[-Max2-]

There is also this Canadian sniper who killed an enemy at about 2.500 meters (longest shot ever) with a MacMillan .50 in Afghanistan...

[Khabbi]

Carlos dident have the longest kill in Vietnam and he dident have the most kills either

He was still a great here and a great sniper

[*Teryan*]

Simo Häyhä was a great sniper in that he killed alot of people in a very short time. Got to give the credit to him for the massive body count. But a sniper is not all about a body count. A sniper is about strking fear into the hearts of the enemy, elimating the most critical member of a unit. Have you ever read "War of the Rats"? This greatly demonstrates what I am talking about. Let's look at it this way, Simo Häyhä killed 500+ what ever walked into his cross haires, moral would crumble, and if you are talking about Russians, they always have some one ready to take a dead comrads place. But if some other guy killed 100 officers, the moral/leadership would crumble. Officers are a hell of alot harder to replace, especially good ones.

Would you agree that Simo Häyhä massive body count was due to him shooting what ever walked into his cross haires?

[Caraway]

Would you agree that Simo Häyhä massive body count was due to him shooting what ever walked into his cross haires?
No. Because +505 persons just don't walk into anyones crosshaires (Btw. Simo Häyhä had no crosshaires!) Häyhä hunted and killed his preys. No matter how you would like to praise your snipers, you just can't match Simo Häyhä. It's not about the longest kill. It's about the bodycount.
Does anyone REALLY think that that the Russians did not fear him, or tried to kill him?

[*Teryan*]

Does anyone REALLY think that that the Russians did not fear him, or tried to kill him?



I think the Russians were scared sh**less of him, that is why they sent their own snipers to kill him.


Because +505 persons just don't walk into anyones crosshaires

Shure of that? Rember the Russian casualites Vs, the Finish casulaties? Russians had a bad habit of sending a bunch of troops (human wave attacks) down a narrow roads, or open fields. Just half to have to be in the right place when a fight starts and pull the trigger.


The book ends with a chapter on snipers and sniping throughout history. The author points out that although weapons technology has changed during the last 100 years, the requirements on the sniper has not diminished. Undoubtedly, the large frontal assaults by the Russians during this war accounted for many of the kills credited to Häyhä (one Finn soldier, in another work about this war, was quoted as saying “I like fighting Russians - they fight standing up!). In modern warfare, with better trained troops and less emphasis on human wave attacks, it is unlikely that the record of over 500 confirmed kills made by Häyhä will ever be broken. However, this does not lessen one’s awe of Häyhä's feat, nor from those of today's sniper.


http://www.snipercountry.com/ValkoinenKuolema.html

[shrek]

Who then had the longest shot in Vietnam if not Hathcock?


I was "in country" so to speak when that Canadian pulled that shot off across an incredibly huge valley in Afgh. A lot of luck was involved there also, took him three shots and the guy swas mocking him when it finally hit him.

[Sayeret]

Simo Häyhä. Finland. 1939 - 1940.
A member of the 34th Infantry Regiment and a farmer by trade, Simo Häyhä became a most feared sniper during the 1939-40 (30 November 1939 14 March 1940) Winter invasion of Finland by the Soviet Union. Using nothing more than an iron sighted Mosin-Nagant Model 28, Simo is credited with killing 505 Russians during a nine month period - a feat still unmatched today by any sniper in any conflict. The impact of Simo and men like him forced the Soviets to pay dearly for their transgressions. While Finland lost the Winter war, it cost the Soviets 1,000,000 men killed out of the 1,500,000 man invading force*. The Finns lost a total of 25,000 men in that conflict. A testament to their bravery and determination in the face of amazing odds.

He passed away on April 1st 2002 at the age of 96

[Caraway]

Who then had the longest shot in Vietnam if not Hathcock?


I was "in country" so to speak when that Canadian pulled that shot off across an incredibly huge valley in Afgh. A lot of luck was involved there also, took him three shots and the guy swas mocking him when it finally hit him.

This is not about "the longest shot", this is not about Canadians making "that shot off across an incredibly huge valley", unless they killed + 505 enemies...have some very good thought about that. Nobody can match Simo Häyhä.

I'll come back to this: http://www.snipercountry.com/ValkoinenKuolema.html

[Brozozo]

Personally I admire Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart the most, for their courage. RIP.

[Dennis G]

Carlos Hathcock

[Threelions]

. A sniper is about strking fear into the hearts of the enemy, elimating the most critical member of a unit.

I am pretty sure that Simo scared the hell out of those pesky ruskies. They nick named Simo "the white death".

Cheers

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

It comes down to definitions and perspectives.
If your definition of the best is the most kills then yeah Simo Haya gets it. But Snipers don't just kill at long range and thats not necessarily their greatest contribution on the battle field.

Carlos Hathcock and his spotter delayed an NVA company for three days by the use of precision fires and Artillery. Tactically and strategically that was more important than killing some of them with the rifle.

A Russian rifleman on the eastern front in 1918 delayed the Germans at Tannenburg(?) for eighteen hours after the Russian lines collapsed. That delay allowed Russian commanders to gegain control of the situation.

During the battle of Saratoga the British General Simon Fraser, the most able of the British commanders on the field was singled out by Colonel Daniel Morgans frontier riflemen, who, formed into specialist 'sharpshooter' units took a heavy toll of british officers. With General Fraser mortally wounded the British attack collapsed, their artillery was overrun, and the battle was subsequently lost. This persuaded the french to declare war on britain and send men and ships to support the new republic.

I could give more examples but basically a snipers worth isn't so much in being able to kill five hundred privates as it is being able to influence the outcome of a battle or even an operation by a few well placed shots on selected men and/or equipment.

At the end of the day Finland was defeated in the winter war. Simo Haya achieving five hundred kills didn't affect the eventual outcome. Unlike other snipers who though they didn't get as many kills certainly achieved more, both tactically and strategically.

[the_spec]

Hmm, looks like a "praise the finnish sniper"-Thread to me. According to caraways rhetoric he doesn't wanna leave room for discussion there.

[Clay]

Carlos Hathcock, rip

[anonymous individual]

I have to agree with what Ngati Tumatuenga said, but Simo Haya's record is something.

[Sayeret]

Ngati Tumatuenga wrote:


At the end of the day Finland was defeated in the winter war. Simo Haya achieving five hundred kills didn't affect the eventual outcome. Unlike other snipers who though they didn't get as many kills certainly achieved more, both tactically and strategically.

Ngati 500 people is a lot of people. Just because you never heard about Simo Haya pinning down a Russian company doesn't mean he never did it. You don't know the story behind each of those kills. Also you don't know how many of those people were officers so don't act like Haya didn't help the war since he may very well have despite the fact that the Finns lost.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Sayeret wrote,

Ngati 500 people is a lot of people. Just because you never heard about Simo Haya pinning down a Russian company doesn't mean he never did it. You don't know the story behind each of those kills. Also you don't know how many of those people were officers so don't act like Haya didn't help the war since he may very well have despite the fact that the Finns lost.

Whoa there cowboy!.
How was I acting like Simo Haya didn't help the war?.
I was simply illustrating the fact that just because a sniper kills five hundred people doesn't necessarily make him the best in the world.
No, I don't know the story behind each of those kills but I do know he killed approximately two hundred more Russians with a submachine gun over the same period. At least i think it was him. Anyway its a quantity versus quality sort of thing I was alluding too.
Do you want me to explain it further seeing as how you don't seem to have got it the first time?.

And don't twist my argument around just because your pissed at me for the comments i made in the other thread.

The truth hurts, suck it up cowboy. :petting:

[Uninen]

Just that you people who arent familiar with the subject.... Simo didnt ever use a scope, it was iron sights for him, all the way. :P

And with 505 kills confirmed, theres nothing more to it.


The book describes in detail an incident when Häyhä was hunting a Russian sniper that had killed several Finnish soldiers, among them 3 officers. The Russian belonged to the Red Army's 56 Infantry Division, and was even a Communist Party member. He was equipped with a Mosin-Nagant M91 rifle with a 3x scope. He had made one sure kill that day, and now he was waiting for another target to show itself. The sun was setting, he was tired and rose to his knees. Häyhä, who had been waiting patiently, saw the sun reflecting in the Russian's scope lens. The distance was about 450 meters. Häyhä had been ordered to try to eliminate the Russian sniper, and he did not fail. His bullet struck the Russian in the head, killing him instantly. Häyhä could have used a scope-equipped rifle, but he liked the open sights because he was used to them and he was able to keep his head lower and present a lower profile and target.

Headshot, with iron sighted Mosin-Nagant variant must count for something... at range of 450m.... ;)

That is if the sheer mass of his kills dont impress you.....

[ronin2172]

Some of u said it's not about the length of the shot, which is correct, but it isn't about the number of kills either. If all it took was a guy who was a good shot then there would be tons of snipers, but it takes more than that. Being a good sniper is about accuracy, discipline, fieldcraft, tactical awareness, and mental toughness.

Really it's impossible to compare snipers from different eras and tactical situations. Yea the sheer volume of kills and the lack of equipment make the finn a great one, a legend even, definitly someone to be proud of. The greateset sniper ever? You just can't say that.

Would he have killed the same number in Vietnam, i doubt it. He was in a target rich enviornment, against an army that employed poor tactics at every level. Place Hathcock in his situation and i bet he would have killed a large number as well. To be honest in that tactical situation any good shot would have been able to rack up a good bodycount. Hayha operated on a linear battlefield where the enemy wasn't hard to find (not to mention fighting on his homeland). Hathcok fought on a non-linear battlfield on his enemy's hometurf, and the enemy were masters at concealing their movements, and whereabouts.

Hathcock to me personifies the sniper, a man who would wait hours if not days to make one perfect shot. Hathcock and his spotter were often the only friendlies in a jungle rife with men trying to kill them. Their stalking of a NVA platoon is textbook on how a sniper can operate and be effective.

U say Hayha was better becasue he had no scope. I say he had it easier just for that reason. The main reason y every good shot can't be a sniper? It's because it is an intensely personal trade. Through a high power scope it is possible to see the stubble on a man's face, you can see the expression on the target's face when he is killed. Hayah didn't have to go through that. Without a scope all you have is a 'faceless' enemy. It's harder to kill someone when u can see his face. It humanizes the enemy, u see the enemy is not some monster, he might just be a scared kid or someone's father. In Hathcock's situation hesitation caused by emotion meant death.

If you want to make a case for Hayah tell us how and where he operated, tell us he snuck behind enemy lines to eliminate a russian general. Tell me russian troops got to within feet of his position without detecting him. Tell me he spent days hunting a man that was spent specifically to kill him. Tell me he hunted the enemy in the enemy's back yard.

Not that this lessens Hayha's accomplishments in the least, but at the same time it doesn't make him the greatest of all time.

If we were talking about aces, who would be greater, the ace that shot down 60 bombers or the ace that shot down 30 fighters? It's one thing to go up against a heavy bomber flying straight and level, but to go up against a fighter flown by a well trained pilot trying to specifically kill you is another thing entirely. Numbers never tell the entire story.

[Sayeret]

Here let me correct what I said previously. I didn't mean that Simo Haya was the best sniper because he killed more people than anyone else but I mean that he is a really good sniper.

Ngati Tumatuenga wrote:


Whoa there cowboy!.


The truth hurts, suck it up cowboy.

umm, why'd you call me cowboy? :roll: :roll:

Ngati wrote:


How was I acting like Simo Haya didn't help the war?


At the end of the day Finland was defeated in the winter war. Simo Haya achieving five hundred kills didn't affect the eventual outcome.


I quickly read over your post because I was in a hurry. The line above was what I was commenting on but after re-reading what you wrote and I apologize.


And don't twist my argument around just because your pissed at me for the comments i made in the other thread.

btw do you live in New Zealand, thats what it said on google.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Sayeret wrote,

btw do you live in New Zealand, thats what it said on google

You should work for Mossad. rofl

I was joking when I called you cowboy. I just forgot to use a smiley.

[radon]

A Russian rifleman on the eastern front in 1918 delayed the Germans at Tannenburg(?) for eighteen hours after the Russian lines collapsed. That delay allowed Russian commanders to gegain control of the situation..

That didn't help much because Tannenberg was a big defeat of the russians.

Nobody can Häyhä was a bad sniper, and nobody posted any bacround info of Häyhäs shooting. And Häyhä was not only shooting drunk soldiers running over a field, he killed also many soviet snipers sent to kill him. The fact he survived for so long proves he was good at it. Otherwise there were many more snipers like him. Good eyes , really small size and a brave person. He did not use scopes because he didn't want/need to , they were available him. If I remember correct he even shot crouched not lying down? :cantbeli:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/haykarjp.jpg
I like just this photo. I predict Häyhä would have been a good sniper in Vietnam and Hatchkock in Finland.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Radon wrote,

That didn't help much because Tannenberg was a big defeat of the russians.

And hayas killing of five hundred odd Russians didn't help much because the winter war was a big defeat for the Finns.

[Caraway]

...the winter war was a big defeat for the Finns.
It depends how you look at it. Russia tried to invade us, take away our independence. They failed in their attempt. Should they have succeeded Finland would be in the same situation as the Baltic countries.
If it was a big defeat to us, it was even bigger defeat to the Red Army.

[Fearless-Falcon]

I think that the best sniper in history is the one we don't know or see!

[RoBBo]

there is an aussie sniper from korea, cant remember his name but my dad has an article on him so i will get the name up soon. ne way he wont disclose how many kills he has but it is apparently confirmed that on one particular day he killed 30 people before lunch.

he also did a trench run back and forth with his six shot enfield killing six at a time then running back for ammo. apparently he did this six times killing 36.

i will post the article as soon as i get it.

[Lobo]

I don't get your point. Häyhä wasn't such a great sniper because Finland lost the "Winter War". But Hatchkock was just a great sniper because he fought in a war that was a sounding victory for the U.S.A... :|

[Uninen]

Lobo,

If your talking about what "Ngati Tumatuenga" said, just ignore him... he has a additude problems towards all my country men and our acheivements because of his dislike to me.. :|

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

uninen wrote,

If your talking about what "Ngati Tumatuenga" said, just ignore him... he has a additude problems towards all my country men and our acheivements because of his dislike to me..

rofl

The only one with 'attitude' problems here is you sport.

[/quote]

[Maine Finn]

Lobo,

If your talking about what "Ngati Tumatuenga" said, just ignore him... he has a additude problems towards all my country men and our acheivements because of his dislike to me.. :|

I doubt he's got a problem with the country and her achievements. I think it's just you.

[Maine Finn]

I don't get your point. Häyhä wasn't such a great sniper because Finland lost the "Winter War". But Hatchkock was just a great sniper because he fought in a war that was a sounding victory for the U.S.A... :|

And that makes a difference in how good a sniper each man was? One sniper by himself cannot win or lose an entire war. :cantbeli:

[Uninen]

Maine Finn,

Seeing these last two posts of yours... its almost ironical.... ;)

[Maine Finn]

Maine Finn,

Seeing these last two posts of yours... its almost ironical.... ;)

I try.






Sometimes.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Oh you want to talk about 'ironic' uninen?. Well how about this

uninen wrote,


Just "another Iraqi" thats the mentality you people have, i mean its ok to kill just "another Iraqi".


And then your 'flip flop'.


Heres the deal, show me one decent Albanian?

In the mean time as your looking for it (him/her) i show how they usually are:

They are MEMBERS OF UCK OR AL-QAIDA, THEY ARE GUN DEALERS (ROBBING THE WEAPONS FROM THEIR OWN ARMY..) AND SLAVERS (SELL PEOPLE AS PROSTITUTES ETC..) or THEN THEY JUST OVERTHROW THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THEY (THE PEOPLE) LOST THEIR MONIES WHEN THEY INVESTED ON CRIMINAL "PYRAMID" BUSINESSES.. etc

Or how about,

i just think that those people (the great majority of rogue Albanians and pimp looking Malaysian soldiers) should be teached some manners thats all........


Now THATS irony.

[Uninen]

Ngati Tumatuenga,

Thanks for ruining a fine topic, that was to honor now passed war hero...... you POS!

Seriously, how does it feel now, now as your tiny little meaningless life revolves around me? :|

Get a better hobby.

[ronin2172]

Uninen, u r the one who ruined this thread, all u do is start arguments and when somone proves u wrong u go and insult the person and/or act like a petulant school child and sulk. Seriously how old r u? u give your country a bad name, all the finns on this board should get together and ask 4 u to be banned in the interest of Finland's honor.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Read the posts carefully you whining little bitch.

I was discussing the topic when you jumped in with,

Lobo,

If your talking about what "Ngati Tumatuenga" said, just ignore him... he has a additude problems towards all my country men and our acheivements because of his dislike to me..

So seeing as how you fired the first shot in this instance I guess that

your tiny little meaningless life revolves around me

You really are becoming quite unstable aren't you. All that ranting and raving is obviously having a detrimental affect on your psyche. As evidenced by the vitriolic diatribes that you are now spewing out.

Suck it up sport, the cracks are beginning to show.

[Maine Finn]

Uninen, u r the one who ruined this thread, all u do is start arguments and when somone proves u wrong u go and insult the person and/or act like a petulant school child and sulk. Seriously how old r u? u give your country a bad name, all the Finns on this board should get together and ask 4 u to be banned in the interest of Finland's honor.

Agreed. However, that would also mean that a few other Finns would have to go, as well. I no longer count as a Finn because I've been told that I didn't earn the right to such a lofty title - so it doesn't matter to me that he's disgracing the country and her people.

Boot him!

[digrar]

Thanks for ruining a fine topic, that was to honor now passed war hero...... you POS!



I thought the topic was "The Best Sniper in the History of Warfare?" With the question mark indicating that the topic was up for discussion.

For my two cents, how could you comapre a Finn in a European winter to a American in the jungles of South East Asia, to a Canadian in the mountains of Afghanistan?
I would suggest that at the time of conflict all three were at the peak of their profession but they were in vastly different environments and climates with differing target oppertunities so deciding on who was the better sniper would be difficult at best.

[Zentrum Jagdkampf]

Zentrum Jagdkampf,

The "thing" is settled already, and correct answer has been found. Nobody beats or even comes close to Häyhä with 505 confirmed kills. ;)

505 kills is okay!But the german snipers needed an officer who confiirmed their kills and the 345 kills of Hetzenauer are more because the rest was not confirmed by an officer!

[Caraway]

505 kills is okay!But the german snipers needed an officer who confiirmed their kills and the 345 kills of Hetzenauer are more because the rest was not confirmed by an officer!OK, was 345 kills more because those kills were confirmed by an officer or did Hetzenauer kill more enemies but those kills were not confirmed by an officer but by someone else?



I no longer count as a Finn because I've been told that I didn't earn the right to such a lofty title...Who said you so!!?? That idiot!!! :cantbeli: Due to your grandparents you are Finn to me. :hug:

[Maine Finn]

I no longer count as a Finn because I've been told that I didn't earn the right to such a lofty title...Who said you so!!?? That idiot!!! :cantbeli: Due to your grandparents you are Finn to me. :hug:

Some fellow called Navy.

[Uninen]

Navy was/is Swede.... ignore him. Just like any Finn would do.. ;)

[shrek]

I think the finest sniper ever should be the one from a country whos people can talk on a thread like this without bashing each other to pieces.


Hmmm, let's see, that would be, uhhhh, no-f..king-body.




Hey guys, grow up and stop ruining my favorite website.

[Maine Finn]

I think the finest sniper ever should be the one from a country whos people can talk on a thread like this without bashing each other to pieces.


Hmmm, let's see, that would be, uhhhh, no-f..king-body.




Hey guys, grow up and stop ruining my favorite website.

Yes sir. :oops:

[Haiw]

I think the finest sniper ever should be the one from a country whos people can talk on a thread like this without bashing each other to pieces.


Hmmm, let's see, that would be, uhhhh, no-f..king-body.




Hey guys, grow up and stop ruining my favorite website.
I haven't bashed anyone. Wohoo! Dutch snipers are the best!

Anyone here know a Dutch sniper so we'll actually know WHO is the best? :D

[2Sheds_Jackson]

"Best" is a relative term. Is the guy who hits 550 but misses 1500 in a target rich environment the "best" sniper?

What about the guy who gets one shot in 2 months, at 2000 yards and scores a hit?

It's kind of useless saying "best". Body count depends not only on the skill of the sniper, but lots of other variables -environment, terrain, number of targets, and tactics (or lack of them) of the target.

It's kind of like the MiG-15 vs F-86 argument over Korea. The F-86 is traditionally said to have more kills - but the MiG's job was to shoot down B-29s. The F-86's job was to shoot down MiGs....so it's difficult to say which is "best". They weren't tasked with the same job & weren't fighting the same battle.

[iflu]

anyway, that number is really amazing. because it is not sth about how good my rifle is or how good my shooting is. getting alive in 9 months is a real big deal for snipers.

[Zentrum Jagdkampf]

[quote=Zentrum Jagdkampf]505 kills is okay!But the german snipers needed an officer who confiirmed their kills and the 345 kills of Hetzenauer are more because the rest was not confirmed by an officer!OK, was 345 kills more because those kills were confirmed by an officer or did Hetzenauer kill more enemies but those kills were not confirmed by an officer but by someone else?


Yes but they are not official!!!

[Dalleer]

I no longer count as a Finn because I've been told that I didn't earn the right to such a lofty title...Who said you so!!?? That idiot!!! :cantbeli: Due to your grandparents you are Finn to me. :hug:

Some fellow called Navy.

What Uninen and Caraway said, ignore this "navy" or whatever his name is. Hell, that guy sounds like the other dumb Swede we had here sometime ago, he was called "Chobbamdog" and oh boy what a loser he was...

To tell you the truth yet again, I was born in Sweden so me and that country hold a very "special relationship" right now...

[Caraway]

505 kills is okay!But the german snipers needed an officer who confiirmed their kills and the 345 kills of Hetzenauer are more because the rest was not confirmed by an officer!OK, was 345 kills more because those kills were confirmed by an officer or did Hetzenauer kill more enemies but those kills were not confirmed by an officer but by someone else?
Yes but they are not official!!!
Well, if those official and unofficial kills are put together, what would be his kill record then?

[Zentrum Jagdkampf]

505 kills is okay!But the german snipers needed an officer who confiirmed their kills and the 345 kills of Hetzenauer are more because the rest was not confirmed by an officer!OK, was 345 kills more because those kills were confirmed by an officer or did Hetzenauer kill more enemies but those kills were not confirmed by an officer but by someone else?
Yes but they are not official!!!
Well, if those official and unofficial kills are put together, what would be his kill record then?

345 +200/300 kills!

[Caraway]

So that makes 545 to 645 kills. How can there be 100 kill tolerance?

[shrek]

The best sniper ever is the guy sitting next to you keeping "them" off of you while you ex-fil!

[Hellman109]

The best sniper ever is the guy sitting next to you keeping "them" off of you while you ex-fil!

Or alternativly keeps the enemies off large guns and heads down while your advancing.

A snipers kills do say something, but not everything.

500 kills with iron sights IS impressive, no matter what, does that make him the 'best', well for kill count it appears so.

A sniper that takes out an entrenched MG guarding a field that your troops are pnned down in can do wonders, so can killing that Tank Commander throwing the command structure of an armourded attack off.

There is no definative wa to measure a soldiers worth, therfore no way to accuratly measure the 'best' it's all subjective.



Dutch Snipers rawk officially:
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/articles/030721a/t030721a.htm

June 2003 though.

Im Australian so dont say Im biased, just feeding the fire.

some parts:


The competition itself consisted of several different aspects, which included a stalking exercise, a long-range shoot, a multi-target engagement, a pistol shoot, a spotter's shoot as well as a timed stress shoot.


At the end of the competition top honours went to the Dutch team, which took the prize in the long-range competition as well as finishing as the best overall team.

Haiw wins woot

http://home.no.net/kkahrs/news/news001231.htm

Another link although Im too tired to verify it. I presume being on the NATO site is enough for the above....

[pinkeye]

Snipers and Scouts

"When Samuel de Champlain joined a Huron-Algonquin war party in 1609 and killed two Iroquois with the shot from his harquebus, a new era began .... The only protection from the firearms and the greater killing power of the white man was in dispersion, sniping and ambush." - Military historian Fred Gaffen (25)

Most Canadians, Natives included, served in the infantry with the Canadian Corps in the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF). Many Natives became snipers or reconnaissance scouts, drawing upon traditional hunting and military skills to deadly effect.

The duties were straightforward and dangerous. Snipers kept the enemy unnerved with their rifle-fire by shooting at targets from concealed positions called "nests".Scouts slipped behind the front lines in advance of an attack to determine the enemy's positions and capabilities.

Throughout the war, the Department of Indian Affairs received scores of letters from the front commending Native marksmen and scouts. As well, at least 50 decorations were awarded to Canadian Natives for their bravery while sniping and scouting and for performing other feats of valour during the war. Though the following men are few in number, they represent a larger group of unnamed Native soldiers, who placed a greater cause before their own lives.

A Peaceful Man

The most highly decorated Canadian Native in the First World War was Francis Pegahmagabow.(26) An Ojibwa from the Parry Island Band in Ontario, he was awarded the Military Medal(MM) plus two bars for bravery in Belgium and France.(27) Soldiers who had been awarded the MM and later performed similarly heroic acts could receive up to two bars to it, denoting further awards. Pegahmagabow was one of 39 members of the CEF who received the maximum two bars to the MM.

Pegahmagabow enlisted with the 23rd Regiment (Northern Pioneers) in August 1914 - almost immediately after war was declared. Previously, he had worked along the Great Lakes as a marine fireman for the Department of Marine and Fisheries. Within weeks of volunteering, he became one of the original members of the 1st Canadian Infantry Battalion, which, along with the rest of the 20,000-strong 1st Canadian Division, landed in France in February 1915.

Sniping was the specialty of the man his fellow soldiers called "Peggy". It has been written of him, " His iron nerves, patience and superb marksmanship helped make him an outstanding sniper."(28) In addition, Pegahmagabow developed a reputation as a superior scout.

The 1st Battalion experienced heavy action almost as soon as it arrived on the battlefield. It fought at Ypres, where the enemy introduced a new deadly weapon, poison gas, and on the Somme, where Pegahmagabow was shot in the leg. He recovered and made it back in time to return with his unit to Belgium.

In November 1917, the 1st Battalion joined the assault near the village of Passchendaele. Here, roughly 20,000 Allied soldiers crawled from shell crater to shell crater, through water and mud. With two British divisions, the Canadian Corps attacked and took the village, holding it for five days, until reinforcements arrived. The Allies suffered 16,000 casualties at Passchendaele, and Corporal Pegahmagabow earned his first bar to the MM.

His citation reads, "At Passchendaele Nov.6th/7th, 1917, this NCO [non-commissioned officer] did excellent work. Before and after the attack he kept in touch with the flanks, advising the units he had seen, this information proving the success of the attack and saving valuable time in consolidating. He also guided the relief to its proper place after it had become mixed up."(29)

It is not known how Pegahmagabow earned the MM itself and its second bar. It has been said, though, that he merited them during the Second Battle of Ypres in 1916 and at Amiens in 1918.(30)

In April 1919, Pegahmagabow was invalided to Canada, having served for nearly the entire war. Afterward, he joined the Algonquin Regiment in the non-permanent active militia and, following in the steps of his father and grandfather, became chief of the Parry Island Band and later a councillor. A member of Canada's Indian Hall of Fame,(31) Pegahmagabow died on the reserve in 1952.

Francis Pegahmagabow rarely spoke of his military accomplishments. However, his son Duncan recalls being told that his father was responsible for capturing 300 enemy soldiers." My mother [Eva] told me he used to go behind enemy lines, rub shoulders with the enemy forces and never get caught."(32) Duncan also remembers that Pegahmagabow "felt very strongly about his country". Mostly, he sees his father as a peaceful man: "He was always saying how we have to live in harmony with all living things in this world."

Sharpshooter: Henry Norwest

One of the most famous Canadian snipers in the First World War was a Métis marksman who went by the name of Henry Louis Norwest. Norwest was born in Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta, of French-Cree ancestry. In his nearly three years of service with the 50th Canadian Infantry Battalion, the lance-corporal achieved a sniping record of 115 fatal shots.(33) The former ranch-hand and rodeo performer also merited the Military Medal and bar, making him one of roughly 830 members of the CEF to be awarded this double honour.(34)

Norwest's career in the army did not begin so gloriously. He enlisted in January 1915 under the name Henry Louie, and was discharged after three months for misbehaviour.(35) Eight months later, he signed up again, under a new name and with a fresh slate.(36)

Ultimately, Norwest proved to be an inspiration to his unit. A fellow soldier wrote of him: "Our famous sniper no doubt understood better than most of us the cost of life and the price of death. Henry Norwest carried out his terrible duty superbly because he believed his special skill gave him no choice but to fulfil his indispensable mission. Our 50th [Battalion] sniper went about his work with passionate dedication and showed complete detachment from everything while he was in the line. ... Yet when we had the rare opportunity to see our comrade at close quarters, we found him pleasant and kindly, quite naturally one of us, and always an inspiration."(37)

Sniping was a hazardous infantry role. Most snipers worked in pairs, with one partner shooting and the other observing - scanning the surroundings and reporting enemy movements. It is said Norwest possessed all the skills required of a sniper: excellent marksmanship, an ability to keep perfectly still for very long periods and superb camouflage techniques. Much of his time was spent in "No Man's Land", the dreaded area between opposing forces. As well, Norwest and his observer often slipped behind enemy lines.

The battalion's star marksman earned the MM in 1917 at a peak on Vimy Ridge dubbed "the Pimple". The Canadian Corps, part of a massive Allied offensive, was tasked with capturing the Ridge. Although previous Allied attempts to take it had failed, the elaborately planned Canadian assault succeeded. Most of the Ridge was taken on the first day, April 9. Three days later, the two remaining enemy positions, including the Pimple, were conquered.

According to his award citation, Norwest showed "great bravery, skill and initiative in sniping the enemy after the capture of the Pimple. By his activity he saved a great number of our men's lives."

More than a year after the Battle of Vimy Ridge, Norwest was awarded a bar to his MM. During the Battle of Amiens, in France, Allied forces successfully attacked an important salient. They surprised the enemy completely, managing to advance 19 kilometres in three days. For his part, Norwest destroyed several enemy machine-gun posts and achieved a sniping record that was a battalion high.

A week later, the 50th was moving into position for its next assignment when the sharpshooter held his final post. On August 18, three months before the war ended, Norwest and two others were looking for a nest of troublesome enemy snipers. A sniper's bullet hit the Métis marksman, killing him instantly. For the members of his battalion, a genuine hero had been lost.

[Haiw]

Dutch Snipers rawk officially:
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/articles/030721a/t030721a.htm

June 2003 though.
Whoah! We beat tha Canadians! :lol: woot


http://home.no.net/kkahrs/news/news001231.htm

Another link although Im too tired to verify it. I presume being on the NATO site is enough for the above....
That's not really an Armed Forces sniper; he's just a volunteer working there. It's been in the papers here as well.
Some things are sketchy though; he said that with his old scope he had a maximum range of 5.5 km, while with his reserve scope he can do 'only' 3 km. Sounds a little bit....extreme, even for a .50 cal.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Hellman 109 wrote,

A snipers kills do say something, but not everything.

500 kills with iron sights IS impressive, no matter what, does that make him the 'best', well for kill count it appears so.

A sniper that takes out an entrenched MG guarding a field that your troops are pnned down in can do wonders, so can killing that Tank Commander throwing the command structure of an armourded attack off.

There is no definative wa to measure a soldiers worth, therfore no way to accuratly measure the 'best' it's all subjective

Good post. What I was trying to say but you said it better.

[catdat]

The best sniper in history outshot Carlos Hathcock

This sniper's target was in a vehicle that was travelling down an incline and was turning slightly from right to left. The sniper fired three shots in six seconds with a bolt action rifle, recording two hits one of which was fatal. Amazingly the sniper had anticipated needing only three bullets and had not aquired any more. The weapon the sniper used had been purchased mail order for less than sixty dollars and the scope had never been zeroed nor the weapon cleaned.


The final assessment on _______'s shooting ability, or lack of it, is left to Carlos Hathcock, a retired gunnery sergeant, who has been described as the most famous sniper in American history. He was credited, while on duty in Vietnam, with 93 confirmed kills. He said he attempted to reconstruct the shooting, incorporating all the elements, height, distance, moving target and time frame, but no matter how many times he or his team attempted it, they could never duplicate _______'s alleged performance.

From Court TV's site:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/assassins/jfk/11.html?sect=24

[Hellman109]

famous does not equal best, nor does it being most famous in the US.

As I said it is all SUBJECTIVE, there is no 'best' that can be quantifyable.

[catdat]

Hellman109 wrote:

famous does not equal best, nor does it being most famous in the US.

Hellman you also get a F in reading comprehension.

The article stated Hathcock may be the most famous American sniper. No where in my post was it suggested that Hathcock was the best sniper in the world.

My point is that no one has been able to duplicate the shot described in the article I listed. No one. Therefore either the shot did not occur or the best sniper on earth did it.

catdat out

[Caraway]

My point is that no one has been able to duplicate the shot described in the article I listed. No one. Therefore either the shot did not occur or the best sniper on earth did it.
Perhaps there was more than just one assassin? According to that story, LHO could not have done it, neither any other single shooter.

[Ruutiukko]

I would jus t like to point out that Häyhä, while he maybe did not pin down a company, he did, with his kills added togerther, wipe out at least two of them. Also, as mentioned before, the Soviet soldiers named him the White Death (Bielaja Smert I think is the russian translation of this) whis to me seems to indicate that he was feared by the Soviet troops. Also, having 505+ kills in 3 months averages to about 5.6 each day, a number which does not tell the whole truth since he propably spent at least several of those days in trasportation, R&R or in conditions where he was not actively stalking Soviet soldiers.

The Winter War could, in my opinion, be indeed called grand slauhter of the Soviets due to the appalling casulties they suffered. But the conditions there limited the type of sniper actions possible, since at some cases the temperature has been reported to have been below -40 degrees Celcius. Nobody coud survive in such conditions for a long perioid of time without moving around so it would have been quite impossible to slowly crawl over open groud for two days, you would have frozen to death long before that.

A bit offtopic: If you are interested in the war, I can recommend a movie called Talvisota(Winter War in finnish) directed by one Toivo Parikka. I have seen a version with english subtitles in it and it should be a relatively realistic portrayal of the warfare then.

P.S. As I am a Finn myself my point of view might be a bit biased, myself I still consider Häyhä to to have been the most dangerous sniper so far, I do not think that "great" is an appropriate description for a sniper.

[*Teryan*]

Were not saying that what Häyhä did, did not make him great. What he did was great. But it does not qualify him as the best sniper of all time just beacuse of a body count. Impressive yes, but not the best gauge of a snipers performace.

[garoco]

Trooper Billy Singh (DCM + Bar) - Australian Light Horseman in the First World War - Gallipoli and Western Front. He had 150+ confirmed kills. By confirmed, an Australian OFFICER was present. Billy understated his service and 'tally'.

Nicknamed "murderer" in the media back in Australia, he was a professional Kangaroo shooter in Outback Queensland before the war. He died lonely and divorced in Brisbane in 1943.

RIP Billy :(

[NeedsABetterName]

Simo Häyhä - The best sniper or just an overrated rifleman?

[Caraway]

Simo Häyhä - The best sniper or just an overrated rifleman?Well, he was a sniper who killed +505 enemies. I don't think that anyone can honestly say that he was just an "overrated rifleman". He was a sniper and a good one.

[*Teryan*]

Can you post some of the tactics he used? I dont know mutch about him other than his kill count, no stores of the kills or how he did it.

[Caraway]

Can you post some of the tactics he used? I dont know mutch about him other than his kill count, no stores of the kills or how he did it. I doubt that there is anything in english, but I'll try to find something.

Edit: It's very hard to find anything about Häyhä's tactics in english. Most likely he used the same tactics as any other sniper in WWII used. There is a book called Valkoinen Kuolema (=the white death), but it's only in Finnish.

[The Clip]

Best sniper of all time are Russian!! Zaitsev, Zikan(224 at Stalingrad), Passar(103 single shots through the heart), Ilin(185) and corporal studentov(170)!!! Hathcocks story is amazing. Same for Simo. Did he take them down with 1 shot ti the eye??? Zaitsev(400 confirmed dogtags) few hundred more which were Behind enemy lines!!

[*Teryan*]

@ Caraway, I cant find anything that seays he was more than an marksman with a high body count, due to human wave attacks over open fields.

Russians have some nasty snipers (in a good way). You ever see the sniper thing on the history channel? That one Russian sniper (femial), who got shot in the sholder then naled the sniper who shot her woot Ever read "War of the Rats"? Great book about sniping in stalingrad.

[DE_Six]

The Soviets had wicked female snipers.

Ludmilla Pavlichenko reportedly killed 309. Others include Maria Morozova, Yelizaveta Mironova and Roza Shanina (picture below)

http://www.battlefield-site.co.uk/roza_shanina.jpg

About that single-shot-through-the-heart claim, how do you verify such a thing? An officer autopsied all the kills to confirm?

The problem with kill tallies (and it applies to pilots as well) is that in wartime, they are often inflated for propaganda purposes. So the number of kills isn't all there is to a good sniper.

Cheers

[Caraway]

@ Caraway, I cant find anything that seays he was more than an marksman with a high body count, due to human wave attacks over open fields. I'm quite sure he did his killings by hunting the enemy and then sniping them one by one. He wasn't firing his rifle blindly to towards running Russians. I've red the book Valkoinen Kuolema, but now I'll have to read it again.

Here's something about Simo Häyhä. Links from this thread (if you didn't notice them earlier).
http://www.snipercountry.com/ValkoinenKuolema.html
http://my_gunsite.tripod.com/mygunsite/id25.html
http://www.snipercountry.com/sniphistory.htm#SimoHayha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%E4yh%E4

[The Clip]

Zaitsev only shot officers through the eye! 1 round through the eye as not to damage the skin or head. Officers because without them no one can lead them and they go paranoid.

[Ichhabe]

Zaitsev only shot officers through the eye! 1 round through the eye as not to damage the skin or head. Officers because without them no one can lead them and they go paranoid.

I'm gonna train to be a sniper. A nice sniper. My "signature" would be to shoot both index-fingers off, so they can't point on maps and by that they can't lead the troops in the right direction. rofl

[duck]

It's not very interesting to follow a thread which can be reduced to the following:

"I have no idea about marksmanship and cannot discuss any tactics or equipment but anyway my countrys snipers are best.

P.s My country is better than your country"

[The Clip]

Which country is that???? USA rofl good luck in worse than vietnam war Iraq!!!

[Caraway]

Which country is that???? USA rofl good luck in worse than vietnam war Iraq!!! Thank you for that, as*hole. :bash:

[droopy]

Carlos Hathcock, rip
Hmm a human kills another his a murderer the electric chair for him a sniper kills hundreds and he`s a hero :(

[Uninen]

Zaitsev only shot officers through the eye! 1 round through the eye as not to damage the skin or head. Officers because without them no one can lead them and they go paranoid.
What the helll are you talking about kid?
If one is shot to the "eye" he still will be having exit hole about size of my fist in back of his/hers head.... :lol:

[Zentrum Jagdkampf]

So that makes 545 to 645 kills. How can there be 100 kill tolerance?

SORRY FOR ANSWERING SO LATE1The problem is that the kills in assault or defense operations were not count because the soldier could also be hit by a bullet of an other soldier!I don´t know if Hetzenauer was a better sniper/more kills than the finnish guy but for me his killrate was also very gooo and I don´t know if the russian or finnish number of kills are just probaganda!