Why does he aim like that?

[Thomsen]

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/3460189.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=3F4B2F891997293FAB24BFF500E665D3

Can anybody tell me the sense of this kind of aiming?

[Catch22]

Obviously he's not aiming... just scanning something with x4 ACOG sight. He's got no binocs by him.

[Uninen]

I suspect that he isnt "aiming" but just using the scope as "binoculars".... theres lots of pics of Russians using SVD + PSO-1 in such manner or even just the PSO-1 removed from SVD in Chechnya.... ;)

[Thomsen]

Arrgh, not the ideal picture for my intention.

Here, the guy in the middle:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/special_forces-philippines/a_sfp14

And here:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc242_001

[Uninen]

You mean why doesnt the guys "have the stock properly on their shoulders"?

Beats hell out of me... :|

[Thomsen]

"Stock", that was the word... ;)

Yeah, that´s exactly what I mean.

[Javehn]

Because he is not aiming , he is using the sight for scanning . It's more convinient to pull up the stock , then to lower the head to the Acog .

[Scottie]

Yeah strange, what if somone pulled out a gun, would he have time to lower the stock and fire?? If you fired that weapon you'd probably brake your arm?

[Uncle Sam]

In CQB situations, you really don't "aim" perse. You kinda look down through the front sight for aiming. It's too small of an area to get an effective "aim" stance: But stock firmly in shoulder. But you can fire effectively without the butt stock in your shoulder. I've done CQB many times.

[Nondescript]

Yeah strange, what if somone pulled out a gun, would he have time to lower the stock and fire?? If you fired that weapon you'd probably brake your arm?

Nuh-uh, but you're aim might not be as good atleast after the first shot. You might also hurt your eye, the recoil knocking the scope into your "eye-area". I've seen a couple of guys doing that, it bleeds quite good, more than you'd guess anyway.

[Maj C]

Yeah strange, what if somone pulled out a gun, would he have time to lower the stock and fire?? If you fired that weapon you'd probably brake your arm?

recoil is not so severe that you have to have complete stock to shoulder contact - I have to do the same shooting from off-hand...for different sized shooters you can't always have perfect stock weld because of deuce gear and body armor...one of the reasons they want the next rifle to have adjustable telescoping stock.

[Erik_MAA]

Without knowing the circumstances where the pictures were taken...

It looks to me like the soldiers are placing their weapons high because of the body armor they are wearing...as others have said, this is kind of a problem, especially with the older-style PASGT vests.

It's also possible it's just sloppy gun handling.

[big80a2]

A South african friend of mine used to shoot at his uncle range with these elefant hunting rifles. So he puts his eye against the scope.... took a shot and was left with a black eye rofl p-) :bash:

[shrek]

Well, in CQB situations there are two main reasons for why they and I would hold my weapon in that manner. The first is simple, you get tired of holding it correctly. You can still engage a target holding your weapon in this manner and your arms won’t be shaking from fatigue once it’s time to go active. In most cases you don’t want to let your weapon down so you just fudge a little a set the stock on your shoulder and pull your arms in closer to you to rest them.

The second reason becomes more obvious after you’ve shot a lot in CQB situations. I knew a guy that, unofficially, always shot with his weapon like this. At SFAUC they train you to turn your body, rotating around by bending one knee while straightening the other, to engage targets to the left and right of your line of sight. Never by rotating at the hips, this causes instability and reduces your ability to turn “back” the other direction should the need arise. If you have ever gone into a dark room full of “who the hell knows what” you soon find that no one is fast enough to turn on some targets. Thusly, you take the rifle off your shoulder, place the stock just above your shoulder or hovering just in front of your delts, and then you can swing that mother faster than anyone can react. Accuracy, well it sucks, but in close you’ll hit’em, just keep pulling the trigger. He who shoots first wins most CQB fights.

[ibstolidude]

Yeah strange, what if somone pulled out a gun, would he have time to lower the stock and fire?? If you fired that weapon you'd probably brake your arm?
I can accurately fire a single shot with one arm and with out a good stock to shoulder at a close distance with only one hand on the pistol grip and the other entirely off the weapon - that is a silly statement about breaking your arm - its 223 not a 50cal

[ibstolidude]

in the picture with the M249 the soldier appears to be simply covering a lane - he could shoot if need be - the m249 gets to be a heavy bitch in CQB, especially if full sized. (see shreks post)

in the philipines picture the soldier does nothing unusual in my eyes.
He keeps the weapon high and in tight to the center of the body for a good stable MAINTAINABLE (see shreks post) that he could engage from repeatedly - all he needs to is start shooting, and while shooting lean forward and advance.

[Uncle Sam]

In CQB situations, you really don't "aim" perse. You kinda look down through the front sight for aiming. It's too small of an area to get an effective "aim" stance: But stock firmly in shoulder. But you can fire effectively without the butt stock in your shoulder. I've done CQB many times.

And I'm chopped liva'...

[Seraphim]

Yeah .223 recoil can break arms, is so.

[Seraphim]

Nuh-uh, but you're aim might not be as good atleast after the first shot. You might also hurt your eye, the recoil knocking the scope into your "eye-area". I've seen a couple of guys doing that, it bleeds quite good, more than you'd guess anyway.

Whoever does that with a .223 is 10years old.

[SiFiOn]

Just don't see a reason for not putting the stock in your shoulder. Especially not when your buddy is in front of you, like in the philippines pic. You cannot aim as precisely as with the stock in your shoulder. Don't want to be the one with a blue-on-blue incident.

[ibstolidude]

Just don't see a reason for not putting the stock in your shoulder. Especially not when your buddy is in front of you, like in the philippines pic. You cannot aim as precisely as with the stock in your shoulder. Don't want to be the one with a blue-on-blue incident.
In the pictuer the shooter in the middle has the stock to his shoulder (well high on the inside of the "ball" of the shoulder more inline with the cheek) perhaps you have not seen the M4 stock - it is oval almost tear drop shaped - it is 5.56 - not much stock needed to keep good control.

After all what do those guys know they likely have only been through SFQC, SFARTEC, SFAUC type stuff....gudffaw...um uh yeah..probably quite a bit.

[SiFiOn]

After all what do those guys know they likely have only been through SFQC, SFARTEC, SFAUC type stuff....gudffaw...um uh yeah..probably quite a bit.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that these guys don't know what they are doing. But it's a fact that one can shoot more precisely when the stock is placed in the right spot of the shoulder. This guy has probibly a reason for it, or the pic is taken while he's not ready to cover the back of his buddy.

[ibstolidude]

After all what do those guys know they likely have only been through SFQC, SFARTEC, SFAUC type stuff....gudffaw...um uh yeah..probably quite a bit.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that these guys don't know what they are doing. But it's a fact that one can shoot more precisely when the stock is placed in the right spot of the shoulder. This guy has probibly a reason for it, or the pic is taken while he's not ready to cover the back of his buddy.
I don't know what they teach you, but the right spot for the M4 is high and on the inside of the shoulder towards the chest bringing the weapon as close to your head as feasable rather than your head to the weapon placing the weapon as if a line was drawn out from the outside of the check and along the inside of the weapon, away from the body. If you think you could pop out that door with out getting split by 5.56 go for it.

I do agree that what we see is only a split second out of many as that is all a photo will capture.

[Jack Mehoff]

Arrgh, not the ideal picture for my intention.

Here, the guy in the middle:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/special_forces-philippines/a_sfp14

And here:

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc242_001

He is not the only one. I do it once in a while. You really don't have to aim anything if you are that close.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3664/gas2.JPG

[Scottie]

But that means you will have to use more arm muscles than just resting it on your shoulder.

[Jack Mehoff]

arm muscles? :lol:

[Scottie]

Biceps or whatever the **** they're called.... :roll:

[Jack Mehoff]

I don't think you understood my sarcasm :lol:

[Fintin]

Biceps or whatever the **** they're called.... :roll:

look left....you will get the joke then

[Scottie]

Thats nothing mate :P :lol: :lol: :P

This is mine

http://www.cinemovie.info/ArnoldSchwarzenegger/muscles.jpg

People say I look like someone...but who?? :roll:

[stuntman]

You ladies must understand that the M16/4 type weapons have like no recoil! Plus after a wile I get tired and hold it like that also plus I have short arms and I even rest the stock over my shoulders. You cannot imagine the flak I get for doing that but it's effective.

[Jack Mehoff]

Word. I remember the DS shot the M16 with the stock on his crotch for demonstration just to show FNG recruits that there is nothing to be afraid of. Technically you don't need to put the stock of M16 in your shoulder at close range because the recoil is nothing.....unless you are 5ft tall and 100 pounds or something.

[SiFiOn]

After all what do those guys know they likely have only been through SFQC, SFARTEC, SFAUC type stuff....gudffaw...um uh yeah..probably quite a bit.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that these guys don't know what they are doing. But it's a fact that one can shoot more precisely when the stock is placed in the right spot of the shoulder. This guy has probibly a reason for it, or the pic is taken while he's not ready to cover the back of his buddy.
I don't know what they teach you, but the right spot for the M4 is high and on the inside of the shoulder towards the chest bringing the weapon as close to your head as feasable rather than your head to the weapon placing the weapon as if a line was drawn out from the outside of the check and along the inside of the weapon, away from the body. If you think you could pop out that door with out getting split by 5.56 go for it.

I do agree that what we see is only a split second out of many as that is all a photo will capture.

Never fired a M4, but did fire the C8, allmost similar. We are trained to put the full stock in your shoulder to reduce the shock as much as possible, created by the shot. By this way you don't have to replace the stock in your shoulder. Anyway, we are now having a discussion over just a few inches here... Think we are boring some spectators here...

[MEGR]

CAR-15 has virtually no recoil.

[Nondescript]

Nuh-uh, but you're aim might not be as good atleast after the first shot. You might also hurt your eye, the recoil knocking the scope into your "eye-area". I've seen a couple of guys doing that, it bleeds quite good, more than you'd guess anyway.

Whoever does that with a .223 is 10years old.

The guys I have seen doing that were shooting with the Accuracy International L96A1 AW sniper rifle for the first time, 7,62 mm NATO.

[DE6]

I don't know what they teach you, but the right spot for the M4 is high and on the inside of the shoulder towards the chest bringing the weapon as close to your head as feasable rather than your head to the weapon placing the weapon as if a line was drawn out from the outside of the check and along the inside of the weapon, away from the body.

Which is why, IIRC, the improved polymer ribbed stock's "foot" (or the butt) is longer and angled backward, to have the highest position and proper cheek weld possible.

http://www.cmmginc.com/cmmg_images/tbl_images/stocks_images/Black_Set_6pos_M4HG.jpg

versus the old one

http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/stocks/M4stk2_web.jpg

[SiFiOn]

Nuh-uh, but you're aim might not be as good atleast after the first shot. You might also hurt your eye, the recoil knocking the scope into your "eye-area". I've seen a couple of guys doing that, it bleeds quite good, more than you'd guess anyway.

Whoever does that with a .223 is 10years old.

The guys I have seen doing that were shooting with the Accuracy International L96A1 AW sniper rifle for the first time, 7,62 mm NATO.

Try the Accuracy .338 for a better result ;)

[rob]

okay i didnt read the whoe thread and i know people couldn't answer in the first page.

my understanding is that they are though to aim that way in cqb as it will make teh weapons prtrude less and it will be easier to manuver in thight spaces.

[Yager]

Its looks like some of these guys are holding there weapons in the low ready position ,so you can scan the area without your weapon in the way.But it can quickly be brought to bear.And in confined spaces a long weapon cant always be shouldered so you make do.

[shrek]

Take something heavy, your baby sister, and hold her at the ready postion. When your arms get to shaking from the fatigue stop and write down what you did for the new lack of strength in your arms. I promise it will say, "put baby sisters feet on my shoulder"!

[MEGR]

Shrek, you've fired the m4, its pretty light, correct?

[shrek]

Extremely light, it gets a little heavier once you attach all the carp to it, SOP MOD, surefire, laser and what not. However, this still only makes it about as heavy as a full sized 16. One of the problems with adding all the crap is that it makes it nose heavy. Tends to tip down when your fatigued!! You'll see guys gripping them further and furhter out toward the supressor. And no, the recoil is minumal at best. You can shoot a thousand rounds in a day and never really notice it in your shoulder or chest.

[iflu]

The first is simple, you get tired of holding it correctly. .

shrek, u r god dame right. its tiresome and only fools keep the dame tiresome CORRECT way when there is no need to do that and when ur target shows up, u shake...

[SiFiOn]

The first is simple, you get tired of holding it correctly. .

shrek, u r god dame right. its tiresome and only fools keep the dame tiresome CORRECT way when there is no need to do that and when ur target shows up, u shake...

I should say that opening a door is just the moment to held your weapon in the correct way....

[shrek]

Yes, but not to be argumentive, how many doors has that guy opened? We're human, we get tired, sometimes we do dangerous things, sometimes we're so tired we don't care. Yes, this is very dangerous, but the human body can only take so much, no matter how hard you are.


p.s. I have purposely gone through many doors with my weapon in that configuration. Just try aiming something somewhat heavy and you will see why! Go on, try!

[iflu]

shrek, I think u misunderstand me, i am totally on ur side. I just want to say it is not as easy as people imagine. even to hold ur gun properly. or those TUFF guys just try this SIMPLE experiment. stand still (while not after running some 1500m), hold a dumbbell(5kg) in ur left(or right) hand, and raise ur hand slowly and keep your arm parallel to the groud and hold still WITHOUT SHAKING. How long can u stand? (we used to do it at the elementary phase)

[shrek]

I agree with you completely iFlu. Got my office mate at work here to try it to prove to him that I was right. Everybody thinks that they're stronger than they are!

Now you've got me wanting to go shoot!

[shrek]

I was actually responding to SiFiOn's post about when to do it right. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[shrek]

Look at the post on MARINE TRAINING in the general forum. You'll see a lot of the same habits among the Marines!!

[I love Rachael Leigh Cook]

I'll just add my CND$0.02 that no one has addressed yet, with regard to the M249/ LMG gunner. The way that Marine is holding it is pretty much the only way you can do it with a bulky 200 round box and fixed stock. Not many people have arms long enough to reach AROUND the box to the forestock, especially with armour on ( I know I can't do it for any enxtended period of time). You can also try holding on to the bipod but it's very unstable. IMO it really isn't a weapon designed to be fired from the standing shoulder.

The Israelis have a feature(the diagonal forward grip) on their Negev that looks to be very useful in adressing this issue. Can't say first hand though. The smaller ammo pouch also helps.

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/lmg/negev/Negev_12.jpg

[ibstolidude]

many in the US use a collapsing stock, not folding, and the 100 assualt pouch...vertical foregrips are much more rare bt do exist.
I find the saw with para-stock and 100 round assualt drum to be an excellant weapon for use in the city as it easy much easier to wield than a 240 but it can kick up a lot more than the m4 - I would like to try out the shrike for an extended period of time.

[Uninen]

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/3460189.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=3F4B2F891997293FAB24BFF500E665D3

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50802196.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=B84D4F1548A4F56ED7C83EE4AD5646F4A9C30E9B9B114CE8
See, their not that much different.. ;) (from todays pictures....)

[Thomsen]

I´ve noticed it.

And I tried it today.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9986/Thomsen1.JPG

25m distance, not that bad to shoot.