Anything not to like about the XCR??

[MrGoodKat]

I have been snowed in for 2 days and have had a lot of time to think about the XCR. So let's see...

Upper:
1. Forged Aluminum momolithic upper receiver with full length machined top rail and machined quad rails.
2. Non-reciprocating left side charging handle that can act as forward assist.
3. Quick Change barrel
4. fully adjustable gas system (with supressor setting)

Lower:

1. Ambi safety with 60-degree throw
2. AR style drop free magazine release
3. Ambi bolt release
4. Grip that accepts AR aftermarket grips like the MIAD
5. Side folding AND telescoping stock, which can be used with AR stocks
6. Forged aluminum

Operating system:

1. Bolt with 3 giant lugs to resist breakage
2. No cam pin or cam pin hole to break
3. Fixed ejector
4. Gas piston
5. Mag sits high in gun to facilitate "straight in" feeding
6. Potential for different calibers.

Ive been holding off judgement on the XCR until Robarm proves to me they can make it and support it. They seem to have proved that. So now that Ive been looking at the rifle, It seems ideal...or am I missing something.

Thanks!

[yiorgo]

small company....innovative, but still small......also there track record with keeping rifles around is not to good...look at there M96, and the VEPR both have basically disappeared and getting parts is almost impossible.....same will happen with the XCR when the NEXT best thing comes along

[budgie]

Any pics of this weapon?

[John Crighton]

Nothing more than an AR15 with an AK gas system. While a Massive improvement on the design, the purest will never buy it.

Robinson killed themselves on the M-96 with prices that were just absolutely stupid. Poor quality on early models did not help either.

There are other gas piston AR variants out there. I doubt this will be any better or worse than the rest in all areas but price.

Since the design may not be around long I would pass. If I knew I could get parts for it, I would buy it if I needed a weapon in that caliber.

[scrybe]

Pics:

http://www.robarm.com/XCR%20L%20CQC%20gif.gif
http://www.robarm.com/XCR_Gallery.htm
http://www.robarm.com/XCR_Customer_Gallery.htm

[Hunterhr]

The fact that it's going to take for ****ing ever to reach the civvie market?

[scrybe]

It's already on the civvie market. There might still be a backorder going, but people have been buying them for a few months now.

[Kocur]

Nothing more than an AR15 with an AK gas system.

Assuming features quoted above describe XCR precisely - where in the world you see anything common with AR15, apart from manipulators placement perhaps?

[yiorgo]

its already on the market and its getting VERY good reviews.....I like robinson arms and I hope them success I just dont like there track record with keeping stuff around....yea the early model M96s had an issue but it was corrected.....the M96 was a great rifle, and the VEPR well hell who here doesnt know how great the VEPRs are? but where are these rifles today? Robinson arms has totally pushed them to the way side for the new XCR.....it is the reason I sold both my vepr and M96, I saw this coming and I am glad I dumped them when I did.....if your looking for a gas piston upper I would look at the LW rifles, and check out the new Masada by Magpull....not out yet may be another year but it is extremely amazing, modular like the XCR and I feel its got better ergonomics.....I am holding out for the Magpull

[James]

Ive been holding off judgement on the XCR until Robarm proves to me they can make it and support it. They seem to have proved that. So now that Ive been looking at the rifle, It seems ideal...or am I missing something.

Thanks!

Who are you? You're 20! I don't know that you could judge much of anything at all!

:cantbeli:

[MrGoodKat]

I'll try not to reply to the personal attack but I will asnwer your question. Yes I am 20. i have been waiting to see how Robinson handles the sale of these rifles and have been reading customer service reports and all seems to be well. I am aware of their track record, but apparently they have turned things around. I'm sorry of you don't think I'm worthy of answers in this forum.

[SMGLee]

read below

[SMGLee]

The stock is overly long and not good for anyone running armor.

The bolt hold open tab is a small thin piece of steel roll pin which will bend or loosen over time and use. the gun has good overall concept but the execution is a bit lacking.

If this is your first firearm, I would avoid it. Buy an AR and forget it about it.


Upper:
1. Forged Aluminum momolithic upper receiver with full length machined top rail and machined quad rails.

Buy a Vltor VIS in Mid length


Upper:
2. Non-reciprocating left side charging handle that can act as forward assist.
and any AR will do the same


Upper:
3. Quick Change barrel

How often will you change your barrel? I have had a LMT MRP. Never changed the barrel. once I get zero'ed, i hate to mess with anything that can affect the result. so if you want a monolithic upper with QD barrel... Buy a LMT MRP. if you absolutely need a piston.. buy the LMT MRP with the piston upgrade which due to be released in the next few months.



Upper:4. fully adjustable gas system (with supressor setting)

nice touch, but do you have a supporessor? if so, how many rounds you shoot with a suppressor? are you shooting in suppressed full auto? if no to any of the above question. direct gas will be fine. just get a littel dirty. :)



Lower:

1. Ambi safety with 60-degree throw
Very nice touch


Upper:
2. AR style drop free magazine release
3. Ambi bolt release
4. Grip that accepts AR aftermarket grips like the MIAD
5. Side folding AND telescoping stock, which can be used with AR stocks
6. Forged aluminum

All can be had with any AR lower


Upper:
Operating system:

1. Bolt with 3 giant lugs to resist breakage
2. No cam pin or cam pin hole to break
3. Fixed ejector
4. Gas piston
5. Mag sits high in gun to facilitate "straight in" feeding
6. Potential for different calibers.

Any of the breakage you listed are due to operators using the weapon beyond its intended perimeter or a lack of depot level maintinance, because no one kept track of the round shoot on a particular M16. or some civvy buying non-MP parts to save a little cash.

Gas piston is a fade. unless you are shooting CQB-R with suppressor and shooting it like a SAW, you have no need for a Piston.. it is just desire to own vs. functionality.

Caliber change is over rated.

Other then that, the XCR is not a bad gun to have.. it just woouldn't be my primary.

[silveykyle]

He's good ^^^^^

[Jippo]

He's good ^^^^^

He has sold his soul, thats all. ;)


-jippo

[MrGoodKat]

Thanks for the detailed response Chen. It is very cool be able to get answers from someone like you.

1 completely unrelated question...what is the "drain time" of an M4?

Thanks again. Now I have more to think about!

[John Crighton]

Assuming features quoted above describe XCR precisely - where in the world you see anything common with AR15, apart from manipulators placement perhaps?

You can't really be that stupid can you?

Anything AR related is absolute trash, Stoner should have been shot for putting that scourge on this nation.

[Kocur]

Funny that I share that opinion, from design POV - but I dont see how pointing out, that XCR has nothing to do with AR15 designwise can make me stupid. Care to elaborate - after reading what I responded to?

[James]

You can't really be that stupid can you?

Anything AR related is absolute trash, Stoner should have been shot for putting that scourge on this nation.

Hmm... It's been serving me well for 14 years.

[mohica]

Gas piston is a fade. unless you are shooting CQB-R with suppressor and shooting it like a SAW, you have no need for a Piston.. it is just desire to own vs. functionality.


Fad? I disagree. I believe the di system will fade in time. Possibly not for the military unless another weapon is selected. As you know, the Colt SCAR entry was a great success. It would be nice to see them retrofit the M4 carbine with the M5 upper. When (if) the 1020 is released to LE (the public by default) I will be a buyer. If not LWRC is in the future. Actually, as of now it is a toss up between the two. I am just hoping Colt makes good. Been waiting awhile now, patience is wearing thin.





Anything AR related is absolute trash, Stoner should have been shot for putting that scourge on this nation.

Give your head a shake. You obviously have little or no knowledge of the history of the development of the AR15/M16. You obviously have little or no experience with the AR15/M16. You obviously have little or no knowledge of Mr. Stoner.

[scrybe]

You can't really be that stupid can you?

Anything AR related is absolute trash, Stoner should have been shot for putting that scourge on this nation.

You're an idiot.

[SMGLee]

Fad? I disagree. I believe the di system will fade in time. Possibly not for the military unless another weapon is selected. As you know, the Colt SCAR entry was a great success. It would be nice to see them retrofit the M4 carbine with the M5 upper. When (if) the 1020 is released to LE (the public by default) I will be a buyer. If not LWRC is in the future. Actually, as of now it is a toss up between the two. I am just hoping Colt makes good. Been waiting awhile now, patience is wearing thin.

Mohica, I know you are a big cheerleader for the Colt, i have no problem with that, but here is the fact. As a civilian, there isn't really a need for piston. a DI gun is just as good and can be more accurate because there isn't a bunch stuff hanging off it. look at the barrel thickness of the 416, you will see why they had to increase the barrel thickness to compensate for the increased weight.

I can understand and i stated in my post that the Piston can be a great improvement for the military, but this thread is a civvy asking questions, so the statements i made are based on a civvy point of view and how a civvy would utilize the rifle.

needless to say, the piston is the wave for those that serves, it is cleaner and it does not wear the internal parts as harsh as the DI gas guns.

[John Crighton]

Fad? I disagree. I believe the di system will fade in time. Possibly not for the military unless another weapon is selected. As you know, the Colt SCAR entry was a great success. It would be nice to see them retrofit the M4 carbine with the M5 upper. When (if) the 1020 is released to LE (the public by default) I will be a buyer. If not LWRC is in the future. Actually, as of now it is a toss up between the two. I am just hoping Colt makes good. Been waiting awhile now, patience is wearing thin.




Give your head a shake. You obviously have little or no knowledge of the history of the development of the AR15/M16. You obviously have little or no experience with the AR15/M16. You obviously have little or no knowledge of Mr. Stoner.


So based on my opinion that the weapon is trash you come to the obvious conclusion that I know nothing. Bad arguement my friend. I know the history quite well. The weapon is trash in my opinion. As a former moderator of AR-15.com I understand the AR-15/M-16 is the best thing God ever created crowd will not like this, but is is a poor weapon past its time, with a poor round.

[John Crighton]

You're an idiot.

Based on historical research, military and civilian usage of it, and spending over $2,000 in cleaning and replacement parts to two units in Iraq who could not keep their weapons working, and the basic fact that you simply disagree, I would have to return your meaningless insult with - go **** yourself, and go back to AR-15.com with all the other knuckledragers who show that American are to stupid to own firearms.

Waiting on Chops to come here and use his evil powers of total weapons knowledge to suspend me.

Hey Chops, you ever get the information on the stamped receivers on the G-43 or SVT-40? I really do look forward to your knowledge here as the two G-43 experts i have contacted laughed their ass off at you.

[East Scout]

I agree the AR is trash...Not from other people stories but my own FH experiences...Ill take the money for
one AR and buy 4 AKs that work..


But I dont agree w/ all the name calling...........(everyone)

[SMGLee]

Based on historical research, military and civilian usage of it, and spending over $2,000 in cleaning and replacement parts to two units in Iraq who could not keep their weapons working, and the basic fact that you simply disagree, I would have to return your meaningless insult with - go **** yourself, and go back to AR-15.com with all the other knuckledragers who show that American are to stupid to own firearms.

Waiting on Chops to come here and use his evil powers of total weapons knowledge to suspend me.

Hey Chops, you ever get the information on the stamped receivers on the G-43 or SVT-40? I really do look forward to your knowledge here as the two G-43 experts i have contacted laughed their ass off at you.

No matter how you cut it, M16 system is still superior to anything out there as of now.

I can't say the same for the SCAR once arrives.

the units you are talking about? who and when and where in iraq? don't tell some sad stories about some maintinance company.

[PvtPyle]

As a former moderator of AR-15.com


Well that says volumes. It does not matter what (if any) real world experience you have with the gun, you were a MODERATOR of a gun board.

As for the rifle in the topic, there are several things wrong with the gun.

1) the receiver does not open far enough for the operator to get his hand in there to clear a jam. Some would ask, why not drop the BCG and shake out the jammed part....

2) The bolt is not captive to the bolt carrier. Which means if I am in the turret and need to clear a jam, and pull my BCG out the bolt could easily drop into the vehicle. In a stationary vehicle the odds are low. But bouncing thru a village or down an Afghan road, that greatly increases the odds of it getting dropped.

3) The sights are too low to index thru an optic easily.

4) The stock is too low to get a cheek weld while using an optic.

5) The twist rate is not optomized for round issued to most agencies. Does it work, yes. But it is not the best.


Alex was given these observations by numerous local and Federal LEO's, as well as members of the local SF unit both before he sent it off and got rejected out of hand, and afterwards when he tried to sell it to LEO's. He blew off their observations as if they did not matter. His price also excludes him from most Agency purchases, it is twice what a select fire M4 is. It sure as hell isn't twice the gun!

Alex built the gun for Alex. It is what he wanted, not what was best for the customer base he was going after. I give him props for doing it and seeing it thru. It is just a shame that his stubborn attitude will cost him so many possible customers. We brought one in (with the promise of delivery of the other 29, which never came forcing us to cancel the order) and reviewed it for SWAT magazine. The review was dead on, Alex himself said it was fair. But it is what it is and it is not the end all, be all replacement for the M4.

The Magpul on the other hand.........

[mohica]

SMGLee -

Roger that on the civvie issue. Although, it sure is nice not having all that crap in the receiver, military or civvie. DI is fine but I have been hoping for a piston for about 25 years or more. Remember the Rhino? Probably no one on this board remembers that. Talk about a blast from the past.

Anyway, as for the weight and such, the 416 is not my favorite by any stretch. I think the only way I would buy one is if there was nothing else available and even then, I make just stick with the DI. I really want to get my hands on the Colt 1020 as you know. Maybe prosterity, because I like the looks of it with the Stoner 63A style front sight. Brings me back a bit. Also, as I mentioned on previous thread was the Colt M5, a further development of their piston system. Handling these at SHOT is just a tease.

The LWRC could end up being the best of the lot when the dust settles. Very low mass and very little travel - 6/10" - will have little if any affect on accuracy. I have shot it and the only reason I haven't purchased yet is waiting on Colt.




So based on my opinion that the weapon is trash you come to the obvious conclusion that I know nothing. Bad arguement my friend. I know the history quite well. The weapon is trash in my opinion. As a former moderator of AR-15.com I understand the AR-15/M-16 is the best thing God ever created crowd will not like this, but is is a poor weapon past its time, with a poor round.

Johnny boy,

You are correct, your opinion the weapon is trash leads me to the conclusion you know nothing. If you presented a rational argument for your case other than to villify the sytem based on some bias that so far has not been explained, your 'opinion' might get a decent debate going. Alas, it appears that won't happen as your rest on you self acclaimed laurels of being a moderator at AR15.com. Who gives a rat's ass?

Poor round? I don't think you want to be on the receiving end of an M193 out of a 1/12" twist barrel. Nope, don't think you do.

And we ain't friends.

[James]

Well that says volumes. It does not matter what (if any) real world experience you have with the gun, you were a MODERATOR of a gun board.


x2... and why the past tense?

I mentioned it earlier... I've been using the AR family actively (not just on the range at home) for 14 years, and it's served me well. I might choose a piston AR if I had the opportunity, but other than that there's nothing I'd rather use.

[Jippo]

No matter how you cut it, M16 system is still superior to anything out there as of now.

no matter how you cut it, that is just your opinion.


-jippo

[wbear]

Back to Robinson Arms.

I would not say they have turned things around. I have been trying to purchase a folding stock for the vepr that they have been advertising for a year. They keep telling me to call back and then give me the run around. Half the time you can't get anyone on the phone and when you do they don't know anything. They are not dependable. I would not buy a rifle that they produce themselves because of these reasons. There are too many others out there to choose from that are sold by companys that don't have these issues. Wish it wasn't that way but buyer beware.

[SMGLee]

no matter how you cut it, that is just your opinion.


-jippo

LOL....

Opinions of many professional war fighters also. :)

[Jippo]

Yes, and quite a few professional warfighters disagree with that opinion also. :)

Works for you, good. May not work for everyone else.


-jippo

[Indiana Jones]

LOL....

Opinions of many professional war fighters also. :)
Seriously, talk about a stretch. I guess nobody denies that the AR is a good platform and has its merits, but such generalisations lead nowhere.

[mohica]

Yes, and quite a few professional warfighters disagree with that opinion also. :)

Works for you, good. May not work for everyone else.


-jippo

So jippo, please tell us of a superior platform currently in service. Inquiring minds want to know.


Seriously, talk about a stretch. I guess nobody denies that the AR is a good platform and has its merits, but such generalisations lead nowhere.

Indy, perhaps you could chime in and answer the same question.

[TonyT]

Guys,


The emotions on this site regarding a rifle are getting ridiculous. Guys are going mental on each other. :backhand:


Please keep arguments objective. The M16/M4 series of rifles has been around 40 years so to say it is a piece of garbage somewhat limits the objectivity of any further argument. It obviously has some merits.

It is an excellent weapon that has gone through growing pains-30 years ago. Obviously there are better solutions available today but exactly how much better is a constant debate.

Everyone was claiming the HK G36 was the answer until it made it's way into the desert. Now, many are writing on this site that the G36 isn't the end all of assault rifles but the HK 416/417 is. Or is it?

I have carried the M16A1, M16A2, and (briefly) the M4 over the years and objectively feel the weapon is outstanding. The only gripe is it is a pain in the a.. to clean. In the sand box, if you don't clean it (lubricate), the M4 will eventually jam. Unfortunately, the lubrication and fine Iraqi dust don't mix well. This has been the source of most reliability issues.

How much better a gas/piston system does in this situation will be seen. As a civilian or law enforcement shooter I don't think you will realize the benefits of a gas piston system over the AR since you really can't abuse it to the levels of the military. I guess you could, but which one of us would throw a $1,000 rifle around in the mud, sand, and snow?

Any of you who have owned an AK would agree it isn't the end all either. Sure it is more reliable, but try and qualify with it. The FAL series is a great, but it was replaced years ago by the IDF due to reliability issues in the desert-a gas/pistol rifle. The most elite units in the world trade their bullpup's for AR series; the French and British at least.

I wouldn't say the AR sucks but I would agree a better solution might be out there. Time will tell what it is.

[James]

^^^ Well said TonyT.

[Macs.]

Everyone was claiming the HK G36 was the answer

Its "just another" modern 5.56mm rifle.


until it made it's way into the desert.

... and ?


The whole topic about what is the better military rifle is pretty useless, at the end of the day you still have to use what your army is issuing you (Well, unless you are either somekind of super spec-ops or a PMC, and then I would guess your choice would be limited to what's available on the civilian market.) and god knows that most armys don't go for what's the "best", but for what's the "best" with the cheapest price.

[homeinvader]

The specs of the gun aside, the US military has long since stopped the practice of relying on small companies to fufill large orders. This was the "national armory" paradigm of small arms development and a thing of the past. Now they solicit proposals from existing companies and one of the factors in choosing a design is that company's reasonable ability to fulfill order on-time and any large additional orders in a time of national emergency. The particular weapon design of a small company would have to be substantially better than its competitors in order to counter the negative of simply being a small company. The DoD does not want to have to buy (or seize) the technical data package and seek other manufacturers because of the normal and expected pitfalls of being "small".

To a large degree it is by design that Colt, FN, HK, SIG, Beretta et al are the suppliers of our nation's small arms and not companies like Robinson Arms. Robinson Arms is set-up and run for the civilian market, not for large scale gov't orders.

[SMGLee]

I wouldn't say the AR sucks but I would agree a better solution might be out there. Time will tell what it is.

that is right on, AR is not the end all and be all system, but this is probably the best system we have at this time. we live in interesting times with all the changes and development in the hroizon, it will be fun to watch.

[Hollis]

that is right on, AR is not the end all and be all system, but this is probably the best system we have at this time. we live in interesting times with all the changes and development in the hroizon, it will be fun to watch.


I'll second that. Sort of Just getting better and better. Now if only I have more money to beable to support my habit.

[Chops]

Waiting on Chops to come here and use his evil powers of total weapons knowledge to suspend me.

Hey Chops, you ever get the information on the stamped receivers on the G-43 or SVT-40? I really do look forward to your knowledge here as the two G-43 experts i have contacted laughed their ass off at you.

You contacted "two G-43 experts" over whether those rifles had stamped receivers? There are some sad people here but you're taking the biscuit.

Terminology mistake on my part evidently (WW2 kit is hardly my forte) but glad that you were so upset by it to waste your obviously valuable existence checking it out for me. Much obliged.

Anyway I just shoot 'em. Not masterbate over 'em like you evidently do.

[Jippo]

So jippo, please tell us of a superior platform currently in service. Inquiring minds want to know.

I thought this discussion was about XCR?

Rifle debate on forums got old ten years ago. I find it waste of time, although I sometimes do it myself. But not this time.

I shoot a rifle that is superior to AR in it's intended use in my environment. There are many weapons in the world that "achieve" that.

But that is not an objective test, but my opinion. In many ways AR is also better than this particular weapon, but not in the areas I find important. It also happens to be so that some functions of AR thought always good are in fact hindrances in my opinion, and the other way round. But to start with this debate, no way.

If you want to see independent U.S. test where AR absolutely sucked find about the torture test by Alaska highway patrol made sometime around 80's. In that list you will find the rifles I consider good winning.


-jippo

[mohica]

Pardon the double post.

[mohica]

I thought this discussion was about XCR?

Not any longer.


Rifle debate on forums got old ten years ago. I find it waste of time, although I sometimes do it myself. But not this time.

You started the debate. You gotta be a politician in the mold of Bill Clinton the way you dodged that question. This is the second time I asked for you to do so. Just man up and tell us in your opininon what is a superior system to the AR15/M16 current being fielded.


I shoot a rifle that is superior to AR in it's intended use in my environment. There are many weapons in the world that "achieve" that.

What is it and what are they.


But that is not an objective test, but my opinion. In many ways AR is also better than this particular weapon, but not in the areas I find important. It also happens to be so that some functions of AR thought always good are in fact hindrances in my opinion, and the other way round. But to start with this debate, no way.

Ok Jippo, you have taken a position and we are aware it is only your opinion. For the third time, which rifle do you find superior for your purposes as described?


If you want to see independent U.S. test where AR absolutely sucked find about the torture test by Alaska highway patrol made sometime around 80's. In that list you will find the rifles I consider good winning.


-jippo

So now it is a guessing game? If you are comfortable with your position, by all means let us know. I don't believe anyone is gonna attack you for liking a different rifle. Different strokes.......

[Jippo]

What is it and what are they.

GALIL
FN FNC
SIG 55X
VALMET/SAKO

I would post the file of the torture test but cannot seem to find it. I'm sure that there are also other weapons that would 'qualify' (Maybe Tavor, G36, ..., ...) but I don't have any experience with these so I don't want to start guessing.

Happy now?


-jippo

Added links:
Galil, Sako & Valmet
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as43-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as23-e.htm
http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/00042_en.dsp
FN FNC
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as24-e.htm
SIG 55x
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as25-e.htm

[mohica]

Happier than a clam at high tide! Legitimate weapons, I own some and they are good choices. The AK based weapons need no explanation. Myself, I would probably still take the M16 particularly with a viable piston upper as a sytem over any of the individual rifles you mentioned.