Utah Mall Shooting

[sct1886]

Utah Mall Mall Shooting
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5218570

[seraosha]

The 18-year-old man who shot and killed at least five people Monday night at Trolley Square has been identified as Sulejmen Talovic, a Bosnian refugee who lived in Salt Lake City.

Hmm, we'll see more on this topic as time goes by, the thread title seems a bit premature, in light of the killers background.

[jasonblaster]

No, not a muslim terrorist, but just as twisted, ignorant, and dishonorable as any member of the Islamo Clown Patrol.

[socom6]

I mean wtf set him off? What gives?

[Tyler Durden 95]

Uh... A serb refugee doing this would have been an evil Nazi !

[dutch508]

Uh... A serb refugee doing this would have been an evil Nazi !

There was a Muslim SS brigade from Bosnia.

[Ghostly]

Uh... A serb refugee doing this would have been an evil Nazi !


Think it was the Croats that sympathized with the nazis in ww2...

[Pook2]

Thank God for that off duty officer.

[sct1886]

Wake Up...
"He was a Bosnian, Bosnians fought for Hitler and slaughtered 300,000 Christian Serbs. Bosnians are linked to Al Queda and his name was Sulejman=the Balkan term for Suleiman"
Couresy of Guerno-2

[IraGlacialis]

Oh noes, Islamists! A crazy kid with a Bosnian heritage goes on a shooting spree, so he must be an Islamic fundamentalist.
I guess that a crazy kid with a German heritage who goes on a shooting spree must be connected to neo-nazis then.

[LKSXXX]

Just a foocking lunatic that wacked out and felt like shooting people. Its not like this is somethin new in the US, c'mon.

LKS.

[Aerosoul]

I really get tired of everything being terrorist or not a terrorist. Ensuring a culture of fear, are we?
I don't know how best to articulate my point, but it isn't just Muslim extremists that want to kill people. And every goddamn time something like this happens, it doesn't need to be discussed as if AQ may to be blame.

[TheKrautinater]

I really get tired of everything being terrorist or not a terrorist. Ensuring a culture of fear, are we?
I don't know how best to articulate my point, but it isn't just Muslim extremists that want to kill people. And every goddamn time something like this happens, it doesn't need to be discussed as if AQ may to be blame.

THANK YOU!!!! Wow, you put into words what i've been thinking for quite sometime, but couldn't do myself. Again, thank you so much

[sct1886]

I really get tired of everything being terrorist or not a terrorist. Ensuring a culture of fear, are we?
I don't know how best to articulate my point, but it isn't just Muslim extremists that want to kill people. And every goddamn time something like this happens, it doesn't need to be discussed as if AQ may to be blame.

No it is not just Muslim extremist, but the reality and the history should be self evident. I walk in no fear of any man, but firmly beleive that a government that poorly controls immigration is betraying the people whom they serve. Controlling the borders was basically the primary directive or function of our government. It has has utterly failed to control our borders and crime. Latin gangs in Kalifornia are a prime example of this. Not controlling our immigration and borders is the biggest mistake our country has ever made. No, AQ is not to blame in this case, but several cases of terrorism have been wrongly written off as lunatic crimminal acts. An apple is an apple not an orange. Covering up a crime does not change reality. Our country does have sleeper cells and terrorist wannabes. Violent people have no place in a civilized world... If you cannot live in peace, may you rest in small peices.

[Limeyfellow]

There was a Muslim SS brigade from Bosnia.

Thats not saying much. There was a Jewish SS brigade too.

[Holycrusader]

Thats not saying much. There was a Jewish SS brigade too.

Given opportunity the Mp.net will have their own SS brigade. If you didnt believe me check off topic part of the forum...
:(

[Snoshi]

Oh no.. Balkan flame war ahead.

[Galileo]

Violent people have no place in a civilized world...

With at least 90 death by firearm/day in USA you have a lot of work to civilize our country.

[GoNavy]

With at least 90 death by firearm/day in USA you have a lot of work to civilize our country.

Oh no you did-aaaant!

[Snoshi]

With at least 90 death by firearm/day in USA you have a lot of work to civilize our country.

Must resist temptation.. :bash:

[sct1886]

With at least 90 death by firearm/day in USA you have a lot of work to civilize our country.

My whole point, as do you Frenchmen. As I said violence in any civilized society should not be tolerated. Had it not been for an heroic actions of an armed off duty police officer it would have been much worse. If you took the time to see whom is committing these shootings you would see the greater majority are violent habitual offenders. Hence why I said we should control our borders better. A good sheperd does not let wolves mingle amongst his flocks.

[PsihoKeke]

Thats not saying much. There was a Jewish SS brigade too.

And don't forget the Urukhai SS brigade.

[Taewonkun]

Bush is having a press conference this afternoon. He'll probably link this 18 year old with Iran, and use this incident as a causus belle to launch a nuclear strike against Iran tomorrow. I'm being sarcastic (I think).

[Taewonkun]

With at least 90 death by firearm/day in USA you have a lot of work to civilize our country.

Sorry Galileo, but until someone invents a semi-automatic guillotine, we Americans will just have to settle for firearms. As Marie Antoinette once said, "Let Them Eat 357's!"

[seraosha]

Yea, anyway...

I've been reading up on Bosnian refugees, and the chief complaint seems to be PTSD, especially depession and adjustment dificulties with the kids that encountered violence and horror. There is always more to these shootings than what is initially reported, and if there are warning signs maybe more kids can get help before something like this happens.

Whether or not the kid was a Muslim may or may not have played a part, and with CAIR being so powerful the information might not see the light.

This wouldn't be the first attack from a seemingly "normal" person flipping out and killing people due to their being Muslim...I'll find the links to that guy that ran over those students in his SUV, as well as the attacks in Seattle and at the LAX airport.

[bersaglieri]

"Jewish SS Brigade" ??????
Want to clarify that post? There was a Jewish Brigade but it was the very opposite of an SS Brigade, carrying out assassinations of Nazis.:bash:

[RSKKnin]

Yea, anyway...

I've been reading up on Bosnian refugees, and the chief complaint seems to be PTSD, especially depession and adjustment dificulties with the kids that encountered violence and horror. There is always more to these shootings than what is initially reported, and if there are warning signs maybe more kids can get help before something like this happens.

Whether or not the kid was a Muslim may or may not have played a part, and with CAIR being so powerful the information might not see the light.

This wouldn't be the first attack from a seemingly "normal" person flipping out and killing people due to their being Muslim...I'll find the links to that guy that ran over those students in his SUV, as well as the attacks in Seattle and at the LAX airport.

right soon they will blame Serbs and post how they killed so and so and that is the reason why he went on a rampage...another thing is he was 18 and he must have had 5-6 years when the war ENDED so he probably dont remember anything....

[dangerclose]

With at least 90 death by firearm/day in USA you have a lot of work to civilize our country.


Yes, because firearms are the root of violence.

[dangerclose]

Bush is having a press conference this afternoon. He'll probably link this 18 year old with Iran, and use this incident as a causus belle to launch a nuclear strike against Iran tomorrow. I'm being sarcastic (I think).



Actually thats being stupid. If Bush were to address this shooting he would go out of his way to point out that it's not the religion.

[gaijinsamurai]

Back on topic: In the latest news, the shooter's cousin says he survived a massacre by Serbs, in which 8,000 people were killed.
Sounds like PTSD to me.
Not to make excuses, of course.

[RSKKnin]

WOW AND WHEN U THOUGHT CNN CANT **** UP SERBS AGAIN HERE WE GO.....THIS WOULD BE FUNNY IF IT WASN'T SAD... ITS ALL SERBIAN FAULT!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Utah mall gunman was Srebrenica survivor, cousin says
POSTED: 9:27 p.m. EST, February 14, 2007
Adjust font size:
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CERSKA, Bosnia (*******) -- The 18-year-old gunman who shot five people to death in a Salt Lake City, Utah, shopping mall was a survivor of the siege that ended in the Srebrenica massacre of 8,000 Muslims in Bosnia's 1992-95 war, a cousin said on Wednesday.

Sulejmen Talovic, who was killed by police after Monday's shooting spree in which he also wounded four people, fled his village with his family during the Bosnia war to Srebrenica, a U.N.-protected enclave, Redzo Talovic said.

They spent two years in the town, during which Bosnian Serb forces besieged the enclave and Talovic's grandfather was killed by shellfire, Redzo Talovic said.

When the Bosnian Serbs overran the town in 1995, taking away and massacring some 8,000 Muslim men and boys, Talovic and his mother were evacuated by the United Nations and later reunited with his father, Redzo Talovic said.

"They were a good, quiet family, and I remember that he was a nice kid when he was 4 or 5, maybe a little bit playful," he said, standing in front of the burned-out shell of the Talovic family home in the village of Talovici, eastern Bosnia.

"No one could have supposed that he was going to do such a thing," Redzo Talovic said. "Who knows what made him do that?" He could not say what marks Talovic's childhood memories of wartime Bosnia had left on him.

Redzo Talovic said he was shocked at the news.

"I couldn't believe it. I heard that his parents are dumbfounded, they can't believe he did that," said Redzo Talovic, one of the few villagers to have returned to Talovici.

Talovic and his family never visited Bosnia or kept in touch after moving to the United States as refugees in 2000, his cousin said.

Police said Sulejman Talovic and his mother had lived in Salt Lake City for a few years, during which he had four minor incidents with police as a juvenile.

The teenager, dressed in a trench coat and carrying a shotgun, a .38 caliber pistol and what police said was a "backpack full of ammunition," opened fire at random on Monday evening, sending terrified shoppers running for cover.

Salt Lake City police chief Chris Burbank said the gunman seemed determined to "shoot as many people as he possibly could."

An off-duty police officer opened fire and stopped the youth from moving further through the mall before he was killed by police who arrived in force. (Full story)

Two men, two women and a 15-year-old girl died and four people were wounded.

[SerbPVO]

Hehehehe...the big, bad Serbs are at it once again.

[fourenziks]

What a way to thank the US, for saving them in 95...

[INAT]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/UTAH_SHOOTING?SITE=DEWIL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

"Avdic said he was convinced the war in Talovic's homeland somehow contributed to the Utah rampage, especially the 1995 slaughter of 8,000 Muslim men and boys by Serb forces in the northeastern enclave of Srebrenica".

This is a quote from the story about the tragic mall shooting(the link above).So according to this story
the Bosnian Serbs are responsable for this youth
going on a shooting spree?Wow now that is insane. Connecting Srebrenica to this story also insane.The kid was 4 during the war.Ridiculous:roll:

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

"Neighbors described the lanky boy as a loner who dressed in black."
Sounds like an average school shooter.

"Talovic's mother took him out of high school at age 16 to work, Salt Lake City school district spokesman Jason Olsen said."
Boring work, could one guess that he had to help out feeding the family, dropping out of school don't improve the chances on getting something better.

[khukuri]

Hehehehe...the big, bad Serbs are at it once again.


you guys need to stop whining, nobody is putting the blame at Th4 Zerbz OmG1!! everybody hates us we are so opressed bla bla bla When Mihaljo Mihaljovic shot Swedish foreign minister nobody went nazi serbs
but obviously some feel that this is OmG Izlamic terrorists...

[Fiber]

The kid was 4 during the war.Ridiculous:roll:

I don't know about you, but I can remember things from when I was 4. The first thing I remember was when I was around 3 years old. It is a horrible image. My baby brother's floater in the tub.

[INAT]

you guys need to stop whining, nobody is putting the blame at Th4 Zerbz OmG1!! everybody hates us we are so opressed bla bla bla When Mihaljo Mihaljovic shot Swedish foreign minister nobody went nazi serbs
but obviously some feel that this is OmG Izlamic terrorists...

Well they are saying (and not just CNN) that he did this possibly becuase of the war which he was 4yrs old in and then they add the"8,000 innocents muslims allegedly murdered by Serbs" You must understand this is not a one time anti-Serb statment by a "unbias" US media this is decades old reporting with parroting quotes about Srebrenica.I started a thread b4 seeing this one that almost sounded more sympathetic towards the killer than the victims.Ever heard of Rudder&Finn?

[8thidpathfinderpower]

I don't know about you, but I can remember things from when I was 4. The first thing I remember was when I was around 3 years old. It is a horrible image. My baby brother's floater in the tub.

Now you are scared for life, unable to look at logs in the water......:)

[INAT]

I don't know about you, but I can remember things from when I was 4. The first thing I remember was when I was around 3 years old. It is a horrible image. My baby brother's floater in the tub.




Ha Ha but you get the point.Right?

[8thidpathfinderpower]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/UTAH_SHOOTING?SITE=DEWIL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

"Avdic said he was convinced the war in Talovic's homeland somehow contributed to the Utah rampage, especially the 1995 slaughter of 8,000 Muslim men and boys by Serb forces in the northeastern enclave of Srebrenica".

This is a quote from the story about the tragic mall shooting(the link above).So according to this story
the Bosnian Serbs are responsable for this youth
going on a shooting spree?Wow now that is insane. Connecting Srebrenica to this story also insane.The kid was 4 during the war.Ridiculous:roll:



Some people will try to justify ones motives through past sorrow in their lives. It does not matter the reasoning, or the conditions that lead to this event, because he was wrong, either way. I have to apologize before hand, but a person just does not go on a killing spree because they have bad nightmares.....thats just a poor excuse to cover up the fact they should have been put in a mental hospital for the rest of their life:backhand:

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Ha Ha but you get the point.Right?

yep I do...but the question remains...do logs in the water still terrify you??:)

[INAT]

Some people will try to justify ones motives through past sorrow in their lives. It does not matter the reasoning, or the conditions that lead to this event, because he was wrong, either way. I have to apologize before hand, but a person just does not go on a killing spree because they have bad nightmares.....thats just a poor excuse to cover up the fact they should have been put in a mental hospital for the rest of their life:backhand:


My point is where the blame is being placed.:fork:

[khukuri]

To be Honest INAT, I dont think anyone else than the serb mebmers of this board see it like that. Maybe you are better in spotting it because you are more sensitive (understandably). I for one did not think of this as the serbs fault when I read he was a srebnreca victim, just as a possible reason for why he was crazy... when people do crazy things like other try and understand why that person was crazy, with a past like that its not strange that a special incident like srebrenica gets mentioned is it?

[Andrew Chalmers]

This entire thread has sunk deeper and deeper into the pit... should we blame the Germans if a Holocaust survivor goes mad and starts shooting people?

I don't think so... the individual had problems - his experience no doubt contributed to them... but the individual ultimately was responsible for himself.

[gaijinsamurai]

Well said, Andrew. One of the first intelligent posts on this thread for some time......

[zad]

When a person make a sick thing like that, there is always the tempation to find a reason, because we don´t want to think that we are still animals, very inteligent animals, but animals at last, we don´t want to think that persons can do crazy weird bad things like that without no reason, it will make us feel afraid of everybody, so we do our best to cheat ourselves, triying to believe that the offender was a sick person, not a normal one that just doesn´t care about other human beings.

[sct1886]

Well said, Andrew. One of the first intelligent posts on this thread for some time......

I was not "whining"... I am sick and tired of the worthless politicians that have failed to do the most basic of their Constitutional obligations, protecting the borders, protecting the citizenry, controlling immigration. Just as I am cautious whom I allow into my home so should they with my country. The bigger picture is they have no idea whom has enterd this country legally or illegallly. BTW, my wife is a naturalized citizen.

[Holycrusader]

I was not "whining"... I am sick and tired of the worthless politicians that have failed to do the most basic of their Constitutional obligations, protecting the borders, protecting the citizenry, controlling immigration. Just as I am cautious whom I allow into my home so should they with my country. The bigger picture is they have no idea whom has enterd this country legally or illegallly. BTW, my wife is a naturalized citizen.


You are off topic here...

[ArmyJonHall]

One shopper had the courage to capture part of the shootout on video- you can view here at LiveLeak. (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8dbc5_4507)

[Hollis]

Well said, Andrew. One of the first intelligent posts on this thread for some time......

I am with you and Andrew, JPND, Just Plain Nuts Disorder can affect anyone for any reason, it is a individual thing. To make any inferences because of one person's action and contribute them to a group demonstrates a person just may also be suffering from JPND.

[50pushman]

Thats not saying much. There was a Jewish SS brigade too.

Oh noes!111! The MP-zionists better not see this!11

[Hollis]

Oh noes!111! The MP-zionists better not see this!11

I would really like to see a reputable site that documents this event. Outside of Kapos, and even their lives were not worth much by the nazis, the only people promoting this nonsense are anti-Jewish people.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Utah's Teenage Killer, the Muslim Connection Ignored

Posted by Warner Todd Huston on February 15, 2007 - 10:02.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2007/02/14/2003572378.jpgI have been watching the "reportage" on the regrettable incident of a teenaged killer's rampage in a Utah shopping mall with mounting interest. In nearly every story of this crime the fact that this youngster is from a Muslim background is either muted or ignored altogether.

The AP, for instance, avoids identifying the boy as a Muslim in all their stories that I saw. In one, they merely identify the region in Bosnia in which he lived as the "northeastern enclave where up to 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered in 1995" but do not even speculate as to the boy or his family being Muslims. It is all rather dutifully avoided. In another story, the AP doesn't even use the word Muslim at all.

Even in the local press, like the Utah Desert News, the issue of his background is ignored or made entirely incidental. The Desert News, in fact, makes just one mention that the "family are Muslims from Bosnia who had lived in the vicinity of Sarajevo" in a rather lengthy and otherwise complete story of the incident.

Worse, the New York Times is making the wild assumption that it is "Bosnian immigrants", not the rest of America, that should be afraid for their lives in theirs titled "Anti-Bosnian Backlash Feared in Utah".

In the Times' story the Muslin issue is given scant notice and the focus is put on how we ignorant Americans are sure to start beating up "Bosnians" right and left. The word Muslim seems to have been replaced rather ridiculously with "Bosnian", as if Americans will seek out "Bosnians" upon which to take out their anger instead of Muslims. The fact is, though, "Bosnians" do not loom as the enemy in the minds of Americans, but Muslims do. How many Americans would instantly become wary if someone were to tell them they are "Bosnian"?

In the Times' story the word Muslim is used exactly once:

The number of Bosnian refugees in the Salt Lake City area has been estimated to be 3,000 to 7,000, most of them Muslims fleeing violence by Serbs in the early 1990s.
So, the Times seems to feel regular Americans are the threat not rampaging Muslims. And, even if this boy was not a practicing Muslim, something we do not know as a factor because of the current deficient state of reporting, the fact that he is from a Muslim family is quite germane to the story.

I would find it perfectly reasonable to include in these stories language that could benignly bring up the issue without fanning the flames of anti-Muslim sentiment. It would not be beyond reasonability to say something such as "It is not known if the boy's Muslim background is a factor in his rampage", or some such rhetoric.

But to wholly ignore the issue seems rather un-journalistic, wouldn't you say? It would also seem to be out of character for the MSM in the normal scheme of things.

The 18 year-old killer, Sulejmen Talovic, was driven from his home with his Mother at four, he lived in the aforementioned refugee camp until he was about 9 and then he moved to the USA with his family in 1998. He was thought to be a "loner" with no friends, but wasn't thought of as a trouble maker, being generally a quiet youngster.

That all ended this week with his murderous trip to the mall.

Of course, it isn't possible with what is known to say that his Muslim background directly led to this rampage, or that it was a result of religious extremism. It is wholly possible that this kid was so mentally traumatized by his young life in a war zone that he snapped.

But, here are some interesting facts. The USA is the good guy in the story of Bosnia's Muslims. In fact, Bosnian Muslims today are one of the few Muslim communities who have thus far violently opposed the kind of religious hatred funded by the Saudis with their exportation of Wahhabism and one of the few that are vehemently pro-American because of the advocacy the US offered them in the efforts to stop Slabodon Milosevic's campaigns of ethnic cleansing.

So, it seems somewhat unlikely that he learned any hatred of the USA from his familial traditions.

But the boy is still a Muslim and he wouldn't be the only one to stray from his family's traditions and ideals to take on a radical ideology.
So we are left with at least two possibilities as to the boy's motives.

He adopted a radical Muslim hatred of the west
He was so traumatized by his youth he just snapped and there is no religious influenceNeither possibility is discussed in any story about this incident, however.

The question is, why is his Muslim background being completely ignored?
Is it just a question of not knowing the facts and the MSM doesn't want to speculate? This would be a hard thing to believe since speculation is one of their favorite games. Remember how Timothy McVeigh was immediately called a Christian, a White Separatist, or that he was part of a militia, etc.? There was little waiting for facts to emerge with McVeigh.

Another incident that showed the MSM's willingness to run with any point no matter if it is proven or not was the Richard Jewel bombing story. That poor guy was so hounded by the MSM that it ruined his life as he was convicted in the press before anything was ascertained.

So, are we to believe that the MSM suddenly got a conscience and decided to go cautious on this boy's Muslim background?

It's doubtful!

But as to the MSM's real motive on this one... well, I'll leave that to each of you.

http://newsbusters.org/node/10842

[XASA]

Dude, you need to seriously take off that tin foil hat. Refer back to other mass killings and see how often their religion is mentioned. The fact that the Columbine shooters and McVeigh were Christians had nothing to do with their heinous crimes.

If the crazy bastard had left a note or video tape that he was acting out as a Muslim or he was committing a terrorist act, then it would be relevant. If the Utah police doesn't think it was a political act that should be good enough for you.

A nut job is a nut job regardless of their beliefs.

[XASA]

FBI agent Patrick Kiernan said the bureau had no reason to believe Sulejman Talovic, who was killed by police, was motivated by Islamic extremism or an act of terrorism.
"It's just unexplainable," Mr. Kiernan said yesterday. "He was just walking around and shooting everybody he saw."
Armed with a .38-caliber pistol, a shotgun and a backpack full of ammunition, Talovic shot nine persons, five fatally, at the Trolley Square shopping center Monday before he was stopped by police, including an off-duty officer from Ogden, Utah.
"We are Muslims, but we are not terrorists," the killer's aunt, Ajka Omerovic, said yesterday at the family's house. She rejected any religious motive and said the gunman's mother is distraught and the family can't explain the shooting. The Talovic family left Bosnia for Utah in 1998 "to be free," she said.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20070214-103210-8637r.htm

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I just despair of Newsbusters whole slant on the tragedy these guys are pissed that not enough capital is made on the fact the guy is a Muslim I mean they seem unable to grasp even the thought of a mentally disturbed guy going amok.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

FBI agent Patrick Kiernan said the bureau had no reason to believe Sulejman Talovic, who was killed by police, was motivated by Islamic extremism or an act of terrorism.
"It's just unexplainable," Mr. Kiernan said yesterday. "He was just walking around and shooting everybody he saw."
Armed with a .38-caliber pistol, a shotgun and a backpack full of ammunition, Talovic shot nine persons, five fatally, at the Trolley Square shopping center Monday before he was stopped by police, including an off-duty officer from Ogden, Utah.
"We are Muslims, but we are not terrorists," the killer's aunt, Ajka Omerovic, said yesterday at the family's house. She rejected any religious motive and said the gunman's mother is distraught and the family can't explain the shooting. The Talovic family left Bosnia for Utah in 1998 "to be free," she said.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20070214-103210-8637r.htm


Thats what they all say, the two most recent incidents where a "muslim" just so happened to have killed or hurt innocent people involved the media rushing to hear the parents say how good and kind their child was and that they could never imagine him doing that.

So what if he didn't leave a video, where in the terrorist manual does it say that before embarking on a martyrdom mission, you must leave a video behind or Allah and the 72 virgins will not accept you?

[XASA]

Using your criteria, I guess the nut job in Philly killed four people because he was a Capitalist, but Forbes, the capitalist tool that it is, is covering it up:

Associated Press
Investor: Deal Behind Killings Was OK
By DAN NEPHIN 02.14.07, 6:04 PM ET

No money was lost in a real estate plan that police said prompted a man to kill three company executives and himself, according to another investor whom the man also wanted to kill.

Vincent J. Dortch believed that he and two other investors in Watson International lost money, perhaps a half-million dollars or more, on a plan to turn a former IBM (nyse: IBM - news - people ) conference center near Binghamton, N.Y., into an entertainment and banquet facility, according to police.

Philadelphia homicide Lt. Phil Riehl said Dortch had invested his wife's retirement money, but he was uncertain how much that was. Dortch claimed he lost "somewhere in the neighborhood of $200,000," Riehl said.

Police had not yet determined if Dortch's claim was true.

Investor Vasantha Dammavalam said Watson International was moving forward with the conference center idea, despite some setbacks.

Watson bought the property, formerly known as Traditions at the Glen, about a year ago for $1.33 million from a company that had bought it from IBM.

The worst flooding in at least 70 years hit the region in June and damaged the property. But Watson had insurance, and the company settled with its insurer about a month ago, Dammavalam said.

"The check has been issued, but it has not been cashed yet," he said Wednesday.

Dammavalam declined to go into specifics, but said Watson's development plan had all been "going quite well."

Dammavalam said he was horrified when police told him Tuesday that Dortch, 44, of Newark, Del., intended to drive to his New York home and kill him after killing three other Watson executives and wounding a fourth man Monday night in Philadelphia.

The two other investors talked Dortch out of it, police said.

The shootings occurred after Dortch got Watson executives together under the pretense that he had another investor, police said.

Dammavalam said he had been on a conference call at the beginning of the meeting, but was disconnected before Dortch opened fire.

"I was on the phone for about a few minutes. We exchanged some basic pleasantries ... then the phone went dead," Dammavalam said. "They hung up the phone. I don't know who."

Dammavalam said he did not hear the shootings, nor did Dortch say anything to indicate he was upset, let alone that he planned to kill anyone. Dammavalam said he had met Dortch about four or five times and did not really know him.

Robert Norris, 41, of Newark, Del.; his brother Mark Norris, 46, of Pilesgrove, N.J.; and James Reif, 42, of Endicott, N.Y., were killed.

Patrick Sweeney, 31, of Maple Shade, N.J., was injured. He remained in critical condition Wednesday at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital. Sweeney, who was bound in a chair and shot multiple times, managed to call police by splicing together wires from a phone Dortch had yanked from the wall.

The shootings took place in the offices of a marketing company, Zigzag Net Inc., located in the former Philadelphia Navy Yard.

Mark Norris was president and CEO of Zigzag. Sweeney is Zigzag's human resources manager, but was not an investor or executive with Watson International, according to police.

"He was not supposed to be there," Riehl said. Police have not been able to speak with Sweeney because of his injuries.

Dammavalam, who is also Zigzag's vice president, said the marketing company would continue.

A message left for Dortch's wife was not immediately returned Wednesday.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/02/14/ap3428069.html

Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed

[imohammed2]

if i am not wrong, Bosnians do not have anything against americans......especially since America intervened in almost every balkan conflict supporting Bosnains.......

SO, this Bosnian teenager's rampage cannot be classifed as anti-american or pro-jihad...............If anything, European muslims (NOT immigrants but those who have been European AND Muslims for a long time) shy away from their chechen, arab and south-asian brethren who are more inclined to have terror connections OR extremist views.

I suspect this rampage is more along the lines of what happned up here in Canada, in montreal, where a Sikh teenager took a rifle to a college and killed another student. It wouldn't have been appropriate to link that shooting to the Air India Bombing Terrorists simply because he is Sikh, nor is it appropriate to link this Bosnian teenager to "islamic terror."

make sense to you?

[imohammed2]

btw, i didnt know Muslims had a ****ing terrorist manual...............stop being such a racist sh1t face

[shocker1]

btw, i didnt know Muslims had a ****ing terrorist manual...............stop being such a racist sh1t face
You mean Islamophobe maybe, since the last I checked Muslim is not a race.
Pointing the finger at Radical Islam here is just speculation, considering the hard life his younger days knew I would hold off on making that accusation in the thread title. We should allow the Justice system to determine motive.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

That story was written yesterday and in the context of the aftermath of the shooting.

Had that man been muslim, the media would've been dragging their feet to tell you that he was a muslim.

The incident that involved a muslim mowing down dozens of students at a University proves that, the media was quick to interview people saying that the perpetrator was "white", that he was definately "white", when it later came out that infact it was not a white man but a muslim man the media put it out as a footnote rather than a spectacular story such as when it was a white man mowing down innocence.

That story has died, aswell as the other, similar incident that even had the perpetrator admitting that he was doing it for Allah.

How much you wanna bet this one gets swept under the rug like the rest?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

While I agree there is an obvious slant to mainstream news reporting - so far I really don't see it in this story. He may be a Muslim - he may be a vegetarian too. But unless there is some evidence he committed these acts as a part of his vejad (the vegetarian version of a jihad), it's not really important to the story. Since his actions seem much more in line with those of unparented disaffected US teens, than religiously motivated jihadists...I don't see much of a conspiracy yet. If the cops have a note from him that says otherwise, and it's covered up, well that's a different story.

BTW, let's try to keep things civil. It is possible to disagree without the name calling. If we can't do so, this will be locked.

[apm]

Dude, you need to seriously take off that tin foil hat. Refer back to other mass killings and see how often their religion is mentioned. The fact that the Columbine shooters and McVeigh were Christians had nothing to do with their heinous crimes.

If the crazy bastard had left a note or video tape that he was acting out as a Muslim or he was committing a terrorist act, then it would be relevant. If the Utah police doesn't think it was a political act that should be good enough for you.

A nut job is a nut job regardless of their beliefs.

i second that. sorry, the topic is a kind of overreaction.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

if i am not wrong, Bosnians do not have anything against americans......especially since America intervened in almost every balkan conflict supporting Bosnains.......

SO, this Bosnian teenager's rampage cannot be classifed as anti-american or pro-jihad...............If anything, European muslims (NOT immigrants but those who have been European AND Muslims for a long time) shy away from their chechen, arab and south-asian brethren who are more inclined to have terror connections OR extremist views.

I suspect this rampage is more along the lines of what happned up here in Canada, in montreal, where a Sikh teenager took a rifle to a college and killed another student. It wouldn't have been appropriate to link that shooting to the Air India Bombing Terrorists simply because he is Sikh, nor is it appropriate to link this Bosnian teenager to "islamic terror."

make sense to you?

Nope, doesn't make sense, America helps all kinds of people, and all kinds of people still hate America and wish her harm.




btw, i didnt know Muslims had a ****ing terrorist manual...............stop being such a racist sh1t face

Racist?

Did I use any typical racial slurs?

How can I be racist towards ones religion?

[TuRRiCaN]

Most unfortunate, but knowing Bosnians very well I'd rule out with 99% certainty any warped religious relation to this incident. I'd say the mainstream media has been fairly responsible, seeing that this particular minority has been literally through hell and can't really afford further persecution.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

After seeing some of the reactions to this story, it makes me wonder about some people.

This guy may have been Bosnian, he may have been muslim, and he may be a good' ol american bred white boy. But, all that aside, that does not change the fact this kid was mentally disturbed. He was disturbed just enough to plan, time and execute a mall shooting where there would be the maximum amount of casualties that he could make.

Does that make him a terrorist? No. Does that make him a Jihadist? No. Does that taint public opinion of Bosnian refugees here in Utah? No. What this incident shows, is the fact this kid was very mentally ill. Someone somewhere along the line should have watched this kid, and intervened and got him the help he needed. Not try to justify what he did by blaming it on PTSD, or what ever else we can blame it on. But most of all, his parents should have been checked out and counceled when they pulled the kid from school, because he had to work to make ends meet at home. And this, I find is the lamest excuse of all. And that should of sent all types of redflags up in the first place.



For some of you who wonder what makes a terrorist a terrorist, I believe one of the motives is the person would have to have a political agenda they were trying to make by manipulating the press by useing acts of terror to inflance a government or populice.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

While I agree there is an obvious slant to mainstream news reporting - so far I really don't see it in this story. He may be a Muslim - he may be a vegetarian too. But unless there is some evidence he committed these acts as a part of his vejad (the vegetarian version of a jihad), it's not really important to the story. Since his actions seem much more in line with those of unparented disaffected US teens, than religiously motivated jihadists...I don't see much of a conspiracy yet. If the cops have a note from him that says otherwise, and it's covered up, well that's a different story.

BTW, let's try to keep things civil. It is possible to disagree without the name calling. If we can't do so, this will be locked.

For once since I have been a member of this forum, I could not agree with you more, 2sheds.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

For once since I have been a member of this forum, I could not agree with you more, 2sheds.

Well that's good to hear. Of course it just means that my team was successful in getting the psychoactive drugs into your drinking water. p-)

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Well that's good to hear. Of course it just means that my team was successful in getting the psychoactive drugs into your drinking water. p-)

Why thanks!!! i was wondering why I was feeling so good!!:)


That mall shooting here in Utah is a sad and terrible thing. When I first heard about it, I was stunned to say the least. My first thought was: mall shooting in Utah? Nahhhh...couldn't have happend. But it did. It was understandable to see some of the media and public reaction to the chain of events, because the general consensus is that this type of stuff just does not happen in good ol' Utah.

People blaming the serbs here, that did not happen as to my knowledge. If anything, the public feels pity towards the mother of the boy.

But, this incident just goes to re-enforce an already widely held belief, that something should have been done before hand to stop this from happening. But, in reality, no amount of gun control laws can stop someone from obtaining firearms and commiting crimes like this. Also, it would be nice, but highly improbable if someone could have spotted this kids behavior before hand, and got him some kind of help. Society and the way laws are written prohibit us from intervening against someones will directly and with good cause.

This story over time will fade. People will go about their business and forget about the events on that terrible evening. But, somewhere and somehow, it will happen again. Maybe a different place, and time, but it will happen again. Maybe its time we woke up and started to really take a good look at laws concerning mental health, and intervening when help is needed, because the next time, the body count could be higher.

[imohammed2]

:hug: yea, you guys are right.............................

correction 1: not racist, but islamophobe.............

Correction 2: and my bad, no more namecalling from me

[Firetxmi]

If you look at Mr. Josh's other posts you will realize this obsession is a trend.

[khaz]

The Islamic student(convert) who tried to get his backpack bomb into a university of Oklahoma football game and then blew himself up outside the stadium was of course also, completely unrelated to the current world affairs where part of mebers of the islamic faith are waging a holy war against the west.

If you simply call it what it is your a bigot.

It reminds me of the early 1980's and all the Cities around the country all ran the same way "we dont have a gang problem in (insert city name).

Then of course as the violence escalates they all had to finally admit they did have a gang problem.

The politically correct media is covering up the truth so as to "prevent a backlash". well thats what they will say. More and more incidents like Utah, the OU game, the college back east where the students were ran over by the islamic person (really its just a coincidence). etc, etc will continue to increase until the have to finally admit the truth.

So call me a bigot, I truly dont care. in my 2 + 2 does equal 4

[Kaapeli]

The politically correct media is covering up the truth so as to "prevent a backlash". well thats what they will say. More and more incidents like Utah, the OU game, the college back east where the students were ran over by the islamic person (really its just a coincidence). etc, etc will continue to increase until the have to finally admit the truth.

And what is the truth in your opinion?

[Mr. JOSHUA]

:hug: yea, you guys are right.............................

correction 1: not racist, but islamophobe.............

Correction 2: and my bad, no more namecalling from me


Islamophobe? I'm not afraid of muslims, I just don't like extremist muslims.

Theres a difference between the two.


And what is the truth in your opinion?

The fact that the media downplays any minority involved crime, but if its a Timothy McVeigh or Colombine type crime with white boys or if it involves someone murdering homo******s or insulting homo******s, then the story can run for months on end.

[gilgoul]

The Islamic student(convert) who tried to get his backpack bomb into a university of Oklahoma football game and then blew himself up outside the stadium was of course also, completely unrelated to the current world affairs where part of mebers of the islamic faith are waging a holy war against the west.

If you simply call it what it is your a bigot.

It reminds me of the early 1980's and all the Cities around the country all ran the same way "we dont have a gang problem in (insert city name).

Then of course as the violence escalates they all had to finally admit they did have a gang problem.

The politically correct media is covering up the truth so as to "prevent a backlash". well thats what they will say. More and more incidents like Utah, the OU game, the college back east where the students were ran over by the islamic person (really its just a coincidence). etc, etc will continue to increase until the have to finally admit the truth.

So call me a bigot, I truly dont care. in my 2 + 2 does equal 4

Just out of curiosity, I never heard of this failed suicide bombing, do you have any link to it.

Second question, aren't security guards posted at the entrance of malls in the US?

I have to show my CCW permit and my ID about twenty times a day here, whenever I go to almost anywhere, and I do it gladly.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Just out of curiosity, I never heard of this failed suicide bombing, do you have any link to it.

Second question, aren't security guards posted at the entrance of malls in the US?


No, they are not posted at the entrances, they ride around all day in their explorers and trailblazers yakking it up on the cellphone.

I would also like to see a link to that story about OU.

The other interesting story that never got the publicity it should've was the one where a muslim man went in to a synygogue I believe and shot 6 women and a child, critically wounding one woman and killing the other woman who just so happened to be on her 9th month in pregnancy.

You think that would've been sensational.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Just out of curiosity, I never heard of this failed suicide bombing, do you have any link to it.Any mention of it being a failed suicide bombing is by right wing bloggers who have tried pretty hard to link the guy to every Islamic movement in North America despite the fact that he was not a Muslim. The facts however are worrisome this kid had a reasonable grasp of explosives knowledge and had in the past tried to buy large amounts of Amonium Nirate (he was not a keen gardener by most accounts). He did have a Pakistani roomie (which these days just about makes you a follower of the Jihad), he lived pretty close to the local Islamic centre (solid evidence that you are a terror lover) and he was a loner with a beard.
The local LE really have not elaborated much on the case at present but so far they are not looking for anyone else.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

You think that would've been sensational.Actually it was all over the press I can still remember what he said before he opened fire, and I quote "I am a Muslim-American angry at Israel"

[Firetxmi]

Actually it was all over the press I can still remember what he said before he opened fire, and I quote "I am a Muslim-American angry at Israel"

haha..........

[Ariha]

It is of course unthinkable, and politically incorrect to blame the sect, the death cult called Islam, just because it has grown extraordinarily, and it is easier to assume that Talovic acted on his own and his being muslim is a coincidence, not that there are proofs each and every day of preachings and killings and racism and terror that points to the opposite.

But maybe Papa knows better:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=900025

[Firetxmi]

It is of course unthinkable, and politically incorrect to blame the sect, the death cult called Islam, just because it has grown extraordinarily, and it is easier to assume that Talovic acted on his own and his being muslim is a coincidence, not that there are proofs each and every day of preachings and killings and racism and terror that points to the opposite.

But maybe Papa knows better

I'll start off by saying that I am betting that your time is limited here (your "location" kind of clued me in).

Maybe it is unthinkable because it is not true.

Have you ever met a "real, live" Muslim before?

Have you ever talked with one?

Most Muslims are good, law abiding people, it is the fundamentalists who give them a bad name- just like with any group.

[50pushman]

All you of are stupid fools taking out your frustration on muslims. The majority of muslims in the (western) world are just as muslim as we are christian. They drink, they ****, they get in fights, they do crime just like we do.

They are not lead by their religion in daily life but by their common sence, by the values the society gave them. If they see idiots like you talking about islam everyday the way you do ofcaurse they are gonna be militant.
Hell, if morons would be talking **** about Orthodoxy (my religion) everytime, hell I'm not eve gonna say what I was gonna do.

You people bring the terrorism on yourself by meddling into other peoples affairs the way you do. You cannot be conservative and expansionist at the same time. You want people to respect your degenerated culture then keep it to yourself, don't be exporting it throughout the whole world either by media or force.

Now that's a load of my heart.

[9mmRifle]

No, not a muslim terrorist, but just as twisted, ignorant, and dishonorable as any member of the Islamo Clown Patrol. So you can hear Talovic start to yell Allahu Akbar multiple times, at what point in the video ?

[Durandal]

If you took the time to see whom is committing these shootings you would see the greater majority are violent habitual offenders.

Do you mean shootings in general (last year it was non-violent suicides, with few priors)?

Do you mean shooting rampages such as this (again, usually white males with no priors though there are sometimes warning signs of instability)?

Do you mean murders in general (which over half are spousal abuse events involving people without felony priors)?

I am EXTREMELY PRO-GUN. I just want other people to get gun facts right.