S. Africa seizes the first white farm in reform drive

[DanteXavier]

S. Africa seizes first farm in reform drive


*******


Johannesburg: South Africa, under pressure to redress land ownership imbalances left by apartheid, has expropriated its first farm in a reform drive aimed at returning land to the black majority, officials said yesterday.
The state-ordered sale of a farm in Northern Cape province marks a new phase in the contentious issue in South Africa, where the government has come under fire for moving too slowly to put land in black hands.
More than a decade after the end of apartheid, over 90 per cent of farmland is still owned by the white elite. Until now, the government has moved cautiously, careful not to rattle investor nerves given the chaos that accompanied a similar land redistribution process in neighbouring Zimbabwe.
But the government has recently hardened its stance, and officials said they would use the full power of post-apartheid laws which allow government to order land sales to speed up the process.
The first expropriation took effect on January 26, the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights said in a statement.
"I think it [the expropriation] is most significant. ... It [reform] is something that cannot lag forever," said Susan Booysen, a political scientist at the University of the Witwatersrand.
"The nitty-gritty of each individual case is an incredible mine field government has to go through."
Restitution is part of South Africa's broader land reform programme and allows blacks, many of whom were evicted from ancestral lands, to apply to have their rights restored or to ask for financial compensation.

They can also seek government loans to purchase land.


http://archive.gulfnews.com/world/South_Africa/10104177.html




Well, it's officially begun. Sorry if there is a thread on this already, didn't see one in the general section yet...

[Hellfish]

Zimbabwe II.

[Miles.]

These people will be back to painting their faces and living in caves if they keep up this racist/criminal redistribution of land.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

You can’t really oppress a race of people in their own land and not expect some form of payback, it all seem pretty reasonable to me. After having watched the SA fishing industry being redistributed I have a lot of confidence in the land reforms. My relations in SA have managed to roll with the changes and are still making a buck.

[Miles.]

You can’t really oppress a race of people in their own land and not expect some form of payback, it all seem pretty reasonable to me. After having watched the SA fishing industry being redistributed I have a lot of confidence in the land reforms. My relations in SA have managed to roll with the changes and are still making a buck.

How many people do they have to bribe to make that buck?

I have friends in Zimbabwe who just discovered the local tax collector living in their house. And this was the same moment that they found out they were evicted.

If South Africa starts "Mugabe farming" the stolen land, pull out your checkbook because all the Western nations are going to have to feed these people.

[Bert]

You can’t really oppress a race of people in their own land and not expect some form of payback, it all seem pretty reasonable to me. After having watched the SA fishing industry being redistributed I have a lot of confidence in the land reforms. My relations in SA have managed to roll with the changes and are still making a buck.

So white people oppressing black people somehow justifies the opposite? If your reasoning is the one used by the SA government, it would look like they are merely trying to find good reasons to f*** over colonialist descendants rather than trying to learn some lessons from the mistakes of the apartheid clowns.

[CMNot]

A sad foor note to this story is the murder last week of David Rattray (link (http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/&articleid=297149)). I had the pleasure of staying with this bloke on a couple of occasions at his gaff, and also watched a couple of his talks down in London. A top bloke who voiced the blacks side more than any other, particularly the Zulus. Until the murdered him. That place, it pains me to say, is heading to the dogs quicker and quicker.

[DanteXavier]

So white people oppressing black people somehow justifies the opposite? If your reasoning is the one used by the SA government, it would look like they are merely trying to find good reasons to f*** over colonialist descendants rather than trying to learn some lessons from the mistakes of the apartheid clowns.

Well, this can be a touchy racial subject. As a black guy who has several african relatives who have experience with this issue, I guess I should offer my opinion.

I'll start with a cliche: two wrongs do not make a right. Yes, it's true that things in the past weren't so great between blacks and whites in southern africa. It is true that, in a lot of ways, whites wronged blacks in the past. I could go on, and on; it wasn't so great for us as black people.

However, this does not justify re entering a path of revenge against whites. Sure, the past was horrible, but who says that there are not whites who are willing to reforms and make a better future along with us as one people? Will sending them the same hatred and contempt that whites once sent blacks during the olden times help matters?

I understand where people are coming from with these farm reforms; but is this the best idea?
Let's face it: Europe just seems to know more than we appear to right now. They seem to have more expertise. I suppose you can attribute this to the past troubles to some extent; blacks weren't exactly pushed towards education back then.

However, the fact is tat not, the people that you are taking these farms from are skilled, and the people you are giving them to are not.
Rather than simply taking the farms and kicking the experienced people out, why don't we cooperate? Cooperation is key to the future of blck south Africa; we need to understandthat not all whites are against us and that many are willing to work with us to improve the nation, which they believe is theirs as well.
Instead of just gettng rid of them, why don't we let them keep their land and learn from them? As i said; they know more about farming than we do. The expertise is there. Why not simply create a program which allows whites to keep most of their farms, but also allows blacks to gain a little of this expertise from whites so that they can eventually reach a level that is beneficial to everybody?

This, in my mind, is the best solution. Revenge is not the right answer. But, I guess people are just too angry to follow it.

[DanteXavier]

A sad foor note to this story is the murder last week of David Rattray (link (http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/&articleid=297149)). I had the pleasure of staying with this bloke on a couple of occasions at his gaff, and also watched a couple of his talks down in London. A top bloke who voiced the blacks side more than any other, particularly the Zulus. Until the murdered him. That place, it pains me to say, is heading to the dogs quicker and quicker.

It's as i said: people need to understand that cooperation is key to the future of these nations. They need to take a key or two from people in places like Botswana, namibia, or Gabon, all of which cooperated with the white minority and allowed them to become a part of the nation, rather than just kicking them out or killing them.

[Hellfish]

At what point to ancestral lands stop being ancestral? I mean the Cape has been settled by whites for nearly 400 years... at what point do historically tribal lands (that were never productive agriculturally save for grazing cattle) cease being tribal?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

How many people do they have to bribe to make that buck?I have never heard bribes mentioned ever after all it’s the mineral business they are in it’s not like they are hauling cargo out of JFK.

[SBL]

At what point to ancestral lands stop being ancestral? I mean the Cape has been settled by whites for nearly 400 years... at what point do historically tribal lands (that were never productive agriculturally save for grazing cattle) cease being tribal?

Never. It's far too handy an argument.

[DanteXavier]

At what point to ancestral lands stop being ancestral? I mean the Cape has been settled by whites for nearly 400 years... at what point do historically tribal lands (that were never productive agriculturally save for grazing cattle) cease being tribal?

Well, I suppose that they will remain historically tribal as long as that historically present tribe is still there using it or living on it.
I suppose, then, that many whites who have been in SA for upwards of 4 centuries may be able to claim certain lands that have historically been in their families as theirs...

[usa320]

Im with dante on race...

Were blacks treated poorly in the past? Yes. But they should receieve equal treatment to whites... afterall thats what black leaders have always called for...Equality Should they take revenge on whites or be given special treatment over whites? No. Do your part to society and thrive and you will have as much opportunity as any white man would.

[CMNot]

...not in the eyes of a left wing Govt preaching black empowerment mate.

Your comment contains far to much common sense and far too little ignorance, which I'm afraid is what that part of the world is all about nowadays.

[signatory]

Democracy.

Sucks eh.

[DanteXavier]

Im with dante on race...

Were blacks treated poorly in the past? Yes. But they should receieve equal treatment to whites... afterall thats what black leaders have always called for...Equality Should they take revenge on whites or be given special treatment over whites? No. Do your part to society and thrive and you will have as much opportunity as any white man would.

Precisely. True equality is not earned by simply throwing money or opportunities at people and trying to take them away from others. This system is just focusing on the proportionate numbers and stats, rather than what really matters: the education level and capabilities of the people. They're ignoring that factor and just giving them all sorts of money, land, etc, etc. When people don't know how to use it, you don't have equality,

True equality can only be achieved when both people are equal not just in amount of land, etc, etc, but also in capability. You can throw quotas and seized white farms at some people and call it "equality": an eye for an eye, or whatever. But you have no equality in reality, because you have neglected to raise your people up to the standard at which they are capable of achieving true equality based on their intellectual endeavours and their areas of expertise.

[Hellfish]

Precisely. True equality is not earned by simply throwing money or opportunities at people and trying to take them away from others. This system is just focusing on the proportionate numbers and stats, rather than what really matters: the education level and capabilities of the people. They're ignoring that factor and just giving them all sorts of money, land, etc, etc. When people don't know how to use it, you don't have equality,

True equality can only be achieved when both people are equal not just in amount of land, etc, etc, but also in capability. You can throw quotas and seized white farms at some people and call it "equality": an eye for an eye, or whatever. But you have no equality in reality, because you have neglected to raise your people up to the standard at which they are capable of achieving true equality based on their intellectual endeavours and their areas of expertise.

You should write a letter to the SA government. Seriously. That was a smart thing you just wrote. They need to get clued in.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Edit by moderator

Shake and Bake is on a break for his comment. I've cleaned up the various responses, all of which were quite reasonable.

This is a really good thread. I wish more were like this.

Carry on.

James

[Col. Psycho]

man, trust the government to **** up. its funny, my family that side could see this coming 10 years ago. they knew it was a matter of time. well, its time for them to come back to the UK, no point in living in SA if its going to turn into Zim II.

[Trident-za]

You can’t really oppress a race of people in their own land and not expect some form of payback, it all seem pretty reasonable to me. After having watched the SA fishing industry being redistributed I have a lot of confidence in the land reforms. My relations in SA have managed to roll with the changes and are still making a buck.

I agree that a LOT of white people in SA are still earning plenty money. And it's nowhere near turning into a Zimbabwe just yet.

But, sadly... your example of the redistribution of the fishing industry as being cause for optimisim is misplaced. My wife is doing her PhD on policy in the fishing industry. For the most part, it is under the exact same management as before. Various commerical licenses were sold to "black" companies... who promptly sold their licenses back to the big corporations. And, in many instances... the black company being awarded the fishing license did not own a rowing boat, let alone have the capability for commercial fishing. Nobody thought to check beyond "are they black?" before implementing their policy. In short... it looks very nice on paper, but actually examine the situation.... and it's a farce. It's mostly about how it looks to the electorate, not if it actually works.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I agree that a LOT of white people in SA are still earning plenty money. And it's nowhere near turning into a Zimbabwe just yet.

But, sadly... your example of the redistribution of the fishing industry as being cause for optimisim is misplaced. My wife is doing her PhD on policy in the fishing industry. For the most part, it is under the exact same management as before. Various commerical licenses were sold to "black" companies... who promptly sold their licenses back to the big corporations. And, in many instances... the black company being awarded the fishing license did not own a rowing boat, let alone have the capability for commercial fishing. Nobody thought to check beyond "are they black?" before implementing their policy. In short... it looks very nice on paper, but actually examine the situation.... and it's a farce. It's mostly about how it looks to the electorate, not if it actually works.I am aware that some of the new entrants cashed in their license but to what extent I am not aware, I do know that I & J are pretty much under the same management as before, from what I have heard there has been little real complaint in the way it was all done.

[Sharkattack]

You can’t really oppress a race of people in their own land and not expect some form of payback, it all seem pretty reasonable to me. After having watched the SA fishing industry being redistributed I have a lot of confidence in the land reforms. My relations in SA have managed to roll with the changes and are still making a buck.

Agreed in so far as still being able to make a buck is concerned. One just needs to drive down the street in any city or town in South Africa and look at the motor vehicles being driven...people are making money and big money in a lot of cases. Johannesburg is a case in point where the new black elite are making the most of their new found status as fast tracked Directors and compant execs.

Unfortunately the gap between the 'haves' and 'have nots' is increasing by the year which has led to more crime. Crime has to date still not been addressed so crime has now led to 'violent and senseless crime'. I cringe to think how drastic the situation will be in 2010 when the Soccer World Cup comes to South Africa.

A person will go to jail for not paying your television licence and now when a new legislation comes into effect it will become a criminal offence to smoke in public...that Marxist training our new government had during the Cold War is starting to rear its ugly head. A murderer/cash in transit robber/rapist is caught red handed, and is immediately given bail (16 Dollars) and released onto the street..where in literally hundreds of cases the offender repeats another crime. Our legal system is a disaster!

Thousands of innocent people are being murdered every year in South Africa and the UN has not thought to consider the situation dire. White farmers are being slaughtered by ruthless mindless killers and the government has not even blinked at the statistics.

Yet we have to contend with relatively small and insignificant issues such as land redistribution while the land bleeds.

It's a traversty and an embarrassment to all South Africans.

[Russian_dude]

I always wondered why the B/W South Africans just did not separate into individual semi-autonomous states a la Switzerland. This way you would have had less problems.

[playtym]

I cringe to think how drastic the situation will be in 2010 when the Soccer World Cup comes to South Africa.

The 2010 World Cup's going to be in South Africa? Don't worry about the crime, I don't think they'll even have the stadiums finished in time.

[Sharkattack]

I always wondered why the B/W South Africans just did not separate into individual semi-autonomous states a la Switzerland. This way you would have had less problems.

Russuan_dude there have been several attempts to do this in the past with only one small success in the shape of a town called Orania in the Karoo. Basically the ANC government does not approve of such a venture as they fear an Afrikaner revival.

The purpose of Orania, according to its founders, is to create a town where the preservation of Afrikanerdom's cultural heritage (http://www.answers.com/topic/cultural-heritage) is strictly observed and Afrikaner selfwerksaamheid ("self reliance") is an actual practice, not just an idea. All jobs, from management to manual labour, are filled by Afrikaners only; non-Afrikaner workers are not permitted (elsewhere in South Africa it is still common to consider some manual labour jobs to be "black jobs" that are to be avoided by white South Africans). "We do not want to be governed by people who are not Afrikaners", said Potgieter, the previous chairman. "Our culture is being oppressed and our children are being brainwashed to speak English."
Others point out that since the end of apartheid, the relative political power of the Afrikaners as a political group has diminished to a proportional amount in line with their population size[citation needed]. Some Afrikaners have thus perceived the advent of multi-racial democracy in South Africa as a marginalisation of the Afrikaner community. In response to this, the inhabitants of Orania believe that they have the key to a future for Afrikaners, by Afrikaners, without oppressing (or including) non-Afrikaners.

[Sharkattack]

The 2010 World Cup's going to be in South Africa? Don't worry about the crime, I don't think they'll even have the stadiums finished in time.

I am just going to sit back and cringe.

[playtym]

I always wondered why the B/W South Africans just did not separate into individual semi-autonomous states a la Switzerland. This way you would have had less problems.

We tried something similar. It was called apartheid. It proved to be very unpopluar, especially with the rest of the world. p-)


Russuan_dude there have been several attempts to do this in the past with only one small success in the shape of a town called Orania in the Karoo. Basically the ANC government does not approve of such a venture as they fear an Afrikaner revival.

The government has actually begun discussing legislation to force property developers building upmarket housing estates to include low cost housing within these estates. Rather than addressing their responsibility to provide housing they're attempting to pass the buck to the private sector. They've made promises of houses prior to every election, but never delivered on them.

They're advocating that 1/3 of the area must be set aside for low-cost housing. So you'll have a house costing R1m upwards next to a R50k house in the same complex. The developers know that the people who'll buy into these estates will never want that though. The consequence of this will be that they will stop erecting these estates as there'll be no return on their investment, and the government will have achieved the exact opposite of what they're trying to achieve - less houses being built, not more.

http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/default/display_article.aspx?Nav=ns&ArticleID=1518-25_2067593

There have also been news reports of irregularities in the handling of land claims. In one case it seems that the government department was telling the claimants that the farmer was holding out for an unreasonably high price, while at the same time telling the farmer that the claimants were stalling the process. When the farmer went directly to the claimants they realised that the government was obviously attempting to delay the whole process to make it seem as if there wasn't a "willing seller, willing buyer" situation so that they'd be able to appropriate the farm.

[Erik Sleivöks]

So white people oppressing black people somehow justifies the opposite? If your reasoning is the one used by the SA government, it would look like they are merely trying to find good reasons to f*** over colonialist descendants rather than trying to learn some lessons from the mistakes of the apartheid clowns.

Well… I am somehow having difficulties in understanding how to justify the expropriation of a white farmer that his family has been on the land for 200 years. Especially since that before the arrival of this family 200 years ago there where absolutely nobody living there, apart from the occasional passage of a few nomads over the “Highveld”.

To mix Apartheid in to this story is completely stupid. Apartheid has never stopped blacks from doing farming. On the other hand, why don’t the Norwegians give back Finnmark, Troms, and large parts of Nordland to the Samis? Why don’t the US give back the land to the Indians (the very few left)? Why is there no Apartheid “problem” in Australia and New-Zeeland? Because they just killed almost all the local population so that there was no apartheid needed.

The Norwegian (and European) vision of Apartheid is simply completely distorted, full of errors, and completely build upon some hilarious leftist propaganda that simply omits to take in to account the simple reality of life and the world history.

[CMNot]

I hope your not considering genocide as a workable solution?

Its worth bearing in mind as well that before the Boers and voertrekkers et al there was no farming worthy of the name in a global sense in SA. No whites, no farms.

The really stupid thing is the blacks need jobs, and money. Giving them a farm is not going to help if they have no idea of how to work the land (similar again to Zim).

Education and trade based learning is what they need, not a slab of land that they will leave fallow.

[Sharkattack]

[quote=Erik Sleivöks;2311379]Well… I am somehow having difficulties in understanding how to justify the expropriation of a white farmer that his family has been on the land for 200 years. Especially since that before the arrival of this family 200 years ago there where absolutely nobody living there, apart from the occasional passage of a few nomads over the “Highveld”.

What's even more startling is that the majority black government (79.5%) is afraid that a mere 9.2% of white people will threaten the so called democracy of South Africa through a song!! Read below:

Afrikaans lyrics cause a stir 24/01/2007 09:48:40

The Institute for Race Relations says it is keeping a close eye on the growing popularity of Afrikaans singer Bok van Blerk and his controversial song Delarey.
The lyrics of the song call for General Koos De Larey to come and lead the Boers.
The music video shows wounded soldiers and tearful women and children in a concentration camp during the Anglo Boer war.
One Tukkies (University of Pretoria) student says when the song is played in pubs everyone stands up.
Van Blerk has stirred controversy with his music but some students say he is misunderstood.

.” The song 'De la Rey' has become something of an anthem for young white Afrikaners. It expresses a yearning for leadership among those who feel marginalized and disempowered under the African National Congress government. The chorus of the song runs: “De La Rey, De La Rey, sal jy die boere kom lei, De La Rey, De La Rey. De la Rey, Generaal, Generaal, soos een man sal ons om jou val, generaal De la Rey.” A video of the song can be viewed here (http://mhambi.blogspot.com/2006/10/de-la-rey-bok-van-blerk-musiek-video.html). By the end of January 2007 100 000 copies of the album of the same name had been sold in South Africa. In an article (http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx?ID=BD4A281925) last year the editor of *******, Tim du Plessis, suggested that the song tapped into a “wider sentiment, especially among young white Afrikaners, who are fed up with being demonised as nasty racists who have done nothing right while they are constantly reminded of their ‘shameful’ history? Sometimes it is hard not to think there are elements in the ruling party who are hell-bent on taunting the white Afrikaners.“ The Ministry said that it saw “no problem” with the song, even if its intention was to “mobilize White Afrikaans-speakers…to oppose the democratic government, provided that opposition is within the terms of our Constitution.” It added however that “during the time the song refers to, the White Afrikaans-speaking communities of the then Oranje Vry-Staat and Zuid Afrikaanse Republiek were at war with the British Empire. Unless the composer, performer and his audiences regard themselves as in a state of war with the rest of the population of South Africa, the song is merely a historical curiosity."
“Taking up arms against a democratically elected government, no matter how much one dislikes that government, is a crime, and a grave one at that. It would be a terrible shame if a handful of misguided individuals hope to use an innocent song as a rallying point for treason. The law on the issue of treason is clear, as the accused in the current ‘Boeremag Trial are discovering. Those who incite treason, whatever methods they employ, might well find themselves in difficulties with the law.”

In response Johann Rossouw, a spokesman for the FAK, commented that the song "has proved to be very popular amongst a huge cross-section of Afrikaners and it's mass popularity is clearly at odds with any supposed 'hi-jacking' by 'right-wingers'. In fact, the scarecrow of 'Afrikaner right-wingers' seems to come in all too-handy here."

"Despite appealing to the normal constitutional mechanisms available to Afrikaners as for any other grouping in the country, the Ministry is surely aware of the sensitivity around, for example, the heavy-handed changing of place names in a number of instances, despite pleas for a solution based on mutual recognition, i.e. restoring forgotten or repressed African place names without dropping the Afrikaans place names", he said.


"Refering to the Boeremag splinter group - fugitive members of whom were recently recaptured in part with the apparent help of Afrikaner members of the public - in this context, perhaps tells more of the Ministry's temptation to think of Afrikaners in stereotypical terms than of the actual reality amongst the majority of peace-loving and law-abiding Afrikaners."

[Sharkattack]

I guess this thread could have gone under Political discussions and rants.

[playtym]

I guess this thread could have gone under Political discussions and rants.

Don't worry, I'm sure a mod will be along shortly to move it and issue an infraction. Maybe DanteXavier will get lucky and it'll be done by someone in a good mood.

[Sharkattack]

Don't worry, I'm sure a mod will be along shortly to move it and issue an infraction. Maybe DanteXavier will get lucky and it'll be done by someone in a good mood.

Hehehhe!!woot

[Hellfish]

Out of curiosity, do most of you Saffers plan to stay there? Have you made any kind of plans to leave or do you think you're just going to wait to see if the situation improves?

[Sharkattack]

I have been overseas since late 1997 but go home several times a year and I definitely plan on returning to SA in the not too distant future. Apart from the morons in government we still have a fantastic country with plenty of opportunities. I must say the crime problem hasn't stopped tourists from visiting. Once you're grown accustomed to using your peripheral vision, life is a breeze....just don't lose your edge.

[playtym]

Out of curiosity, do most of you Saffers plan to stay there? Have you made any kind of plans to leave or do you think you're just going to wait to see if the situation improves?

rofl I think it's safe to say that everyone that can leave is making plans to leave.

I don't think that the situation will ever get better.

Realistically, the government incompetence and corruption aside, this country is going to be a victim of negative perception.

South Africa has a population of about 44 million people. The whites make up about 9% of this, or about 4 million. The other groups are blacks at about 35 million (79%), coloureds at about 4 million (9%) and Indians at about 1 million (3%).

I can’t remember the exact figures, but the whites by far contribute the vast majority of the tax collected annually by the Government. If you look at the stats there’s something like a million young whites that have left in the last ten years. This was because they perceived the situation in this country to be getting worse, worse crime etc. etc. and wanted to get out before it all came crashing down.

What this means though is that we’ve already lost almost a quarter of the taxpayers, as well as the next generation of tax-payers that won’t be born in this country. These are the skilled people that will keep industry turning and create jobs. The government is desperately trying to entice them to return to South Africa, but a very tiny percentage has said that they would even consider it, let alone do it.

The remaining whites are either looking at leaving, can’t for some reason, or don’t want to as they think everything will be OK. I think that a lot of the people staying behind will end up being made up of older people who are retired and don’t work or pay taxes etc., and therefore can’t sustain the economy.

Look at how our tourism industry is suffering now due to the murder of David Ratray for example. Realistically, is crime bad? Yes. Will you definitely be a victim of crime if you come? Probably not. The thing is though that people think it isn’t safe so they don’t come. Tour operators are trying to protect their clients so they suggest another destination. That’s hurting us.

Every time Tabo Mbeki denies the existance of AIDS and crime it hurts the perception people have of our country. When you read about farm appropriations in the news it puts you off of investing here.

It’s a death by a thousand cuts, and it’s eventually going to bleed us dry.


At the moment the people leaving is just a flow, but it’ll pick up momentum under this negative perception and then the whole thing will collapse despite the best intentions by government, business leaders etc. as there won’t be anything to sustain it.

That’s just my opinion though.

[exarmyguard]

Is the white armed groups that are scattered around SA getting more members now? I saw a TV report on a white defense group and they looked like they were preparing to fight even then.

[Loki77]

South Africa's Democracy in Trouble


By Andrew Feinstein
South Africa's democracy isn't looking too good these days. Not only is violent crime rampant, but so too is corruption in the upper echelons of government. German companies bear some of the guilt.
South Africa's young democracy is starting to look tawdry just eight years after the retirement of Nelson Mandela. And it appears one of Germany's largest companies is complicit in this decline. Mandela's successor, Thabo Mbeki, has frequently been upbraided for his views on the HIV/AIDS catastrophe in South Africa. He has denied that the two are connected and has done little to stem the flow of new infections.
But it is the persistence of violent crime and the pervasive spread of corruption that is most bedevilling Mbeki. The viciousness of the crime, an inevitable consequence of the decades of brutality under apartheid, is reflected in one of the highest murder rates in the world. Perhaps worse though is the involvement of senior members of government and officials of the ruling African National Congress (ANC) in significant business deals linked to the state -- which has created the perception of a new elite benefiting inappropriately from political patronage.
A recent African Peer Review Report into South Africa says that because of "creeping corruption" and conflicts of interest proliferating in public life, South Africans "feel betrayed, regarding corruption as a negation of democratic gains after a long period of struggle." An opinion poll released recently showed 63 percent of South Africans now think their leaders are dishonest.

Massive socio-economic backlogs
This decline has its roots in a bizarre 5 billion pound ($9.75 billion) arms deal that was signed by South Africa with German, British and French arms companies in 1998-1999.
The first democratic government was strongly criticized for spending so much money on arms and weapons when the country had no enemies and was facing massive socio-economic backlogs. Most pertinently the government was claiming at the time that it could not afford to provide antiretroviral medication to the many millions of its people living with HIV and AIDS.
As an ANC Member of Parliament I attempted to investigate the vast web of corruption allegations that tainted the controversial deal. Der Spiegel's recent story "Bribery Allegations Cloud German Ship Sale to South Africa" (http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,464319,00.html) adds to these allegations. The story alleges that "Chippy" Shaik, Head of Acquisitions in the South African Defence Force at the time of the deal, solicited and received a $3 million bribe from successful bidders, ThyssenKrupp. The information is gleaned from the investigation by Düsseldorf prosecutors into alleged payments of $25 million of "commissions" in the deal by the German industrial giant. In an ironic example of famed German thoroughness, officials at ThyssenKrupp are supposed to have kept notes of their meetings with Shaik when he requested the money.
As the ranking ANC member on Parliament's Public Accounts Committee I was told in detail of the flaws in the procurement process used to award these lucrative contracts. What struck me immediately was that "Chippy" Shaik was involved in every stage of the process and was very close to the South African Defence Minister at the time, Joe Modise.

Tens of millions in "commissions"
One of the questionable deals is currently being investigated by the United Kingdom's Serious Fraud Office. In late 1998, a British Aerospace/Saab fighter and trainer jet was chosen over an Italian competitor even though the Italian jet was half the price and preferred for technical reasons by the South African Air Force. To validate the choice, a cabinet sub-committee chaired by then-Deputy President Thabo Mbeki decided to remove cost as a criterion in this contract -- the most expensive single public contract since the advent of democracy in South Africa.
Former Secretary of Defence Pierre Steyn recently admitted that he resigned in 1998 over the deal -- specifically because he felt Minister Modise had made up his mind before the bidding and even started and had intervened to ensure his preferred outcome -- and the Serious Fraud Office is now looking in to 70 million pounds ($136.5 million) in "commissions" being paid by BAe in South Africa, including a 3 million pound ($5.84 million) payment to an advisor to then Defence Minister Joe Modise.
Thomsons CSF, a French arms company now known as Thales, has likewise come under suspicion for having paid South Africa's then Deputy President, Jacob Zuma, half a million rand a year. Specifically, the company was interested in being shielded from any investigation into the deal after they were awarded the contract for the combat suites that went into the German-made frigates. Zuma's financial advisor and brother of "Chippy," Schabir Shaik, has been sentenced to 15 years in jail for the fraud and corruption involved in this and other transactions. Initial charges against Zuma, still Deputy President of the ANC, were thrown out last year but it is likely he will be recharged later this year.
President Thabo Mbeki was involved in the German deal. The German bidder, the German Frigate Consortium (GFC), had been excluded from the short list early on as it didn't meet the technical requirements specified. However, after an official visit to Germany Mbeki returned to South Africa and reopened the tender. He then appointed another Shaik brother, Mo, as South Africa's consul-general in Hamburg where the German Frigate Consortium is based -- despite the fact that he had no diplomatic or consular experience. Ten months later, with the deal safely in German hands, the consulate was closed down and Mo went on to become South Africa's ambassador to Algeria.

Informal meetings
While investigating the deal in Parliament, I was approached separately by two of the bidders. They told me virtually identical stories of how they had gone to see "Chippy" Shaik at his office in the South African Defence Force headquarters in Pretoria. They each spoke of informal meetings with "Chippy" during which he said if they were serious about winning the contracts, they needed to strike a deal with his brother, Schabir, for the sub-contracts. Bell Helicopters withdrew from the bidding after this meeting. The German Frigate Consortium made one of Schabir's companies, ADS, their partner in the deal, suggesting they had taken "Chippy's" advice.
When he appeared before Parliament's Public Accounts Committee I asked "Chippy" repeatedly why he hadn't signed a declaration of his conflict of interest. He claimed he had recused himself from meetings in which his brother's interests were discussed. Minutes of such meetings, however, show otherwise.
Even worse, soon after this public hearing, the ANC went to great lengths to neuter our investigation. In addition to replacing me as head of the public accounts committee, the government also refused permission for the country's main anti-corruption unit to look into the deal. The result was a weak and incomplete investigation -- and a report that was even further watered down by the presidency before it was presented to the Parliament. One doesn't have to look far to find further indications of corruption. There are allegations that the ANC used donations from some of the successful bidding companies to partially finance its 1999 election campaign. It is likewise known that Modise received tens of thousands of rands worth of shares in defense company Conlog who were recipients of a sub-contract in the deal. He then became chairman of the company within weeks of leaving office.
Wherever there is corruption, the corruptors are as guilty as the corrupted. This is especially so when the corruption occurs in developing countries facing massive challenges in overcoming poverty and its consequences.
As more details of the murkier aspects of the South African deal begin to emerge around the world, it is imperative that the German prosecutors press on with their investigations so that the German public will eventually know the full extent of the involvement of any of their country's companies in this shameful episode in the history of South Africa's nascent democracy.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,465912,00.html

[Trident-za]

Out of curiosity, do most of you Saffers plan to stay there? Have you made any kind of plans to leave or do you think you're just going to wait to see if the situation improves?

Personally... my wife and I are heading to Australia within the next 12 months. I love South Africa (great place, enormous potential), but I can't see how the situation won't deteriorate over the next 10 years, and I don't want to be stuck, wishing I'd left.

The reasons for this deterioration are not all due to the current government. There is a helluva lot of poverty and illiteracy in the country, and much of this can still be attributed to previous governments. I read a report recently stating that 40% of the South African population lived on less than R2000 (approx. $285) a YEAR. I know people who spend 5 times that on monthly car repayments. The gap between rich and poor is staggeringly big. And the number of desperately poor is incredible. Of course, the current government doesn't seem to be doing much to remedy this, but thats another story....

[Trident-za]

Playtym, good post - pretty much expresses my feelings perfectly. Of course, you don't mention that a lot of "whites" leave because other places offer certain things (broadband, for one) for relatively little cost - if you want those things in SA you pay a damn fortune. Part of my decision to leave is economic.

[duck]

Trident-za: Sorry for my ignorance on the situation in your homeland. But am I wrong to assume the Zulus are not especially supportive of this action while the ex-ANCers are determined to pull it trough?

[ren0312]

rofl I think it's safe to say that everyone that can leave is making plans to leave.

I don't think that the situation will ever get better.

Realistically, the government incompetence and corruption aside, this country is going to be a victim of negative perception.

South Africa has a population of about 44 million people. The whites make up about 9% of this, or about 4 million. The other groups are blacks at about 35 million (79%), coloureds at about 4 million (9%) and Indians at about 1 million (3%).

I can’t remember the exact figures, but the whites by far contribute the vast majority of the tax collected annually by the Government. If you look at the stats there’s something like a million young whites that have left in the last ten years. This was because they perceived the situation in this country to be getting worse, worse crime etc. etc. and wanted to get out before it all came crashing down.

What this means though is that we’ve already lost almost a quarter of the taxpayers, as well as the next generation of tax-payers that won’t be born in this country. These are the skilled people that will keep industry turning and create jobs. The government is desperately trying to entice them to return to South Africa, but a very tiny percentage has said that they would even consider it, let alone do it.

The remaining whites are either looking at leaving, can’t for some reason, or don’t want to as they think everything will be OK. I think that a lot of the people staying behind will end up being made up of older people who are retired and don’t work or pay taxes etc., and therefore can’t sustain the economy.

Look at how our tourism industry is suffering now due to the murder of David Ratray for example. Realistically, is crime bad? Yes. Will you definitely be a victim of crime if you come? Probably not. The thing is though that people think it isn’t safe so they don’t come. Tour operators are trying to protect their clients so they suggest another destination. That’s hurting us.

Every time Tabo Mbeki denies the existance of AIDS and crime it hurts the perception people have of our country. When you read about farm appropriations in the news it puts you off of investing here.

It’s a death by a thousand cuts, and it’s eventually going to bleed us dry.


At the moment the people leaving is just a flow, but it’ll pick up momentum under this negative perception and then the whole thing will collapse despite the best intentions by government, business leaders etc. as there won’t be anything to sustain it.

That’s just my opinion though.

I don't know, when I came to your country in 2002 as part of a tour group everything seemed to be fine, and Cape Town, around the Protea hotel near Lion's Head seemed to be reasonably safe after I went out of the hotel to buy some groceries, but maybe that is because I am an ethnic Chinese, and the Black criminals target Whites only, although Johannesburg seemed to be a bit hairier, but then we only went to the tourist spots, and our bus drivers and tourist guides were White, the one in Cape Town was an Afrikaner I believe, so my perceptions of your country may not be all that accurate. Maybe the reason why some Whites refuse to leave South Africa is because of patriotism, there really is the perception, and I believe that this is true to a certain extent, that if you leave your country of birth and migrate to another country, that you are being unpatriotic towards the country of your birth.

[ren0312]

South Africa's Democracy in Trouble

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,465912,00.html

If you are referring to the Grippens and the Mekos they are pretty capable weapons systems in my opinion.

[Sharkattack]

If you are referring to the Grippens and the Mekos they are pretty capable weapons systems in my opinion.

So do you think the Grippens were a sensible buy? How would they stand up to the latest Migs? I know bugger all about the differences between the two.:roll:

[Trident-za]

I don't know, when I came to your country in 2002 as part of a tour group everything seemed to be fine, and Cape Town, around the Protea hotel near Lion's Head seemed to be reasonably safe after I went out of the hotel to buy some groceries, but maybe that is because I am an ethnic Chinese, and the Black criminals target Whites only, although Johannesburg seemed to be a bit hairier, but then we only went to the tourist spots, and our bus drivers and tourist guides were White, the one in Cape Town was an Afrikaner I believe, so my perceptions of your country may not be all that accurate. Maybe the reason why some Whites refuse to leave South Africa is because of patriotism, there really is the perception, and I believe that this is true to a certain extent, that if you leave your country of birth and migrate to another country, that you are being unpatriotic towards the country of your birth.


It should also be noted that the country is a helluva lot more than just Cape Town and Johannesburg. I've only been to Johannesburg and Cape Town a few times, and I was struck by how different those places are from anything I was used to. Cape Town in particular is almost like a foreign country to me. And... 2002 was 5 years ago, a LOT has changed in that time.

[Trident-za]

Trident-za: Sorry for my ignorance on the situation in your homeland. But am I wrong to assume the Zulus are not especially supportive of this action while the ex-ANCers are determined to pull it trough?

duck, sorry - I'm not actually sure what you are asking. What is an ex-ANCer? And which action are you referring to?

[LEGEND]

Sorry for my ignorance, i dont know much about SA, but originally what country are the white SAfricans from? Do they still hold their original citizenship?

The situation sounds just like many former Soviet republics in which after separation strong nationalistic movements and feelings sent most of the russian population packing for Russia resulting in a loss of a huge number of skilled professionals.

[nullterm]

At what point to ancestral lands stop being ancestral? I mean the Cape has been settled by whites for nearly 400 years... at what point do historically tribal lands (that were never productive agriculturally save for grazing cattle) cease being tribal?

Never. It's far too handy an argument.

Playing devil's advocate... so when does parts of North & South American land start getting handed back over to the Native Americans? Similar timelines.

[Trident-za]

Sorry for my ignorance, i dont know much about SA, but originally what country are the white SAfricans from? Do they still hold their original citizenship?



Thats an interesting question... and not one with an easy answer, other than perhaps "all over the world". White South Africans can't really be lumped into one group - Afrikaans speaking and English speaking white people are very different, and come from different places. Plus, amongst the "english speaking" group there are people from Italy, Germany, Russia, England, Greece etc etc. And, to complicate matters... not all the whites came over to South Africa at the same time - the "original" dudes arrived in the 1800s, but white people have been settling in SA ever since.

In my case, my family on my mother's side are technically german-speaking russians (great-grandmother actually came to SA from Russia in 1916). My father's side of the family arrived in 1960 or so, from Rhodesia - they had been there for several decades after leaving Scotland.

Do they still hold original citizenship? In about 99% of cases, no.

[Loki77]

Sorry for my ignorance, i dont know much about SA, but originally what country are the white SAfricans from? Do they still hold their original citizenship?
I think Afrikaners are descended from northwestern European settlers, mainly coming from the Netherlands...

[LEGEND]

Thats an interesting question... and not one with an easy answer, other than perhaps "all over the world". White South Africans can't really be lumped into one group - Afrikaans speaking and English speaking white people are very different, and come from different places. Plus, amongst the "english speaking" group there are people from Italy, Germany, Russia, England, Greece etc etc. And, to complicate matters... not all the whites came over to South Africa at the same time - the "original" dudes arrived in the 1800s, but white people have been settling in SA ever since.

In my case, my family on my mother's side are technically german-speaking russians (great-grandmother actually came to SA from Russia in 1916). My father's side of the family arrived in 1960 or so, from Rhodesia - they had been there for several decades after leaving Scotland.

Do they still hold original citizenship? In about 99% of cases, no.

Thanks for the info, so if things start turning bad for whites in SA, where could they go?

[Hellfish]

duck, sorry - I'm not actually sure what you are asking. What is an ex-ANCer? And which action are you referring to?

I think he's asking if the Zulus in the country think the ANC is doing the right think by expropriating the farms. I think he's trying to find out if you can clump all of the blacks in SA into one major group, or if are they a bunch of seperate groups all competing against each other and are not a united front.

I'm curious myself...

[ren0312]

So do you think the Grippens were a sensible buy? How would they stand up to the latest Migs? I know bugger all about the differences between the two.:roll:

Well for a country with a military budget like South Africa's they are sensible buys, the Czech Republic and Hungary also ended up with them, the Eurofighter or the Rafale may just be too expensive for a country like South Africa, and against MiG-29s and even Su-30 MKKs they should hold up pretty well, and has better endurance than the Eurofighter, I say they are pretty good buys, the only possible problem with the Grippen may be its relatively small weapons load compared to say, the Superhornet, but looking at the military of its surrounding countries, that should not be a problem.

[DanteXavier]

Well for a country with a military budget like South Africa's they are sensible buys, the Czech Republic and Hungary also ended up with them, the Eurofighter or the Rafale may just be too expensive for a country like South Africa, and against MiG-29s and even Su-30 MKKs they should hold up pretty well, and has better endurance than the Eurofighter, I say they are pretty good buys, the only possible problem with the Grippen may be its relatively small weapons load compared to say, the Superhornet, but looking at the military of its surrounding countries, that should not be a problem.

Yeah, and most of the surrounding countries aren't a threat to begin with. I think the only real threat comes from Zimbabwe, and their air force isn't up to date(a few F-7s, etc, etc, not a match for Gripens).

[DanteXavier]

BTW, this question is to the white South Africans: have you ever considered leaving SA, but maybe staying nearby? I've heard there is actually a fairly signifcant(like 200,000 or so) population of whites there, and in places like botswana and Namibia, there isn't nearly as much trouble as far as crime and poverty.
Have any white south africans considered these solutions as opposed to leaving and going across continents? It would allow them to at least stay closer to home but be safer at the same time.

[baboon6]

I don't know, when I came to your country in 2002 as part of a tour group everything seemed to be fine, and Cape Town, around the Protea hotel near Lion's Head seemed to be reasonably safe after I went out of the hotel to buy some groceries, but maybe that is because I am an ethnic Chinese, and the Black criminals target Whites only

Someone told you that and you believed them?

[Sharkattack]

Thanks for the info, so if things start turning bad for whites in SA, where could they go?

We have absolutely nowhere to go....and I for one will not leave. I live in a very nice town just outside of one of the major cities (Durban) off the east coast and I am perfectly happy with life in South Africa. I very much doubt that South Africa will go the way of Zimbuggered..er..Zimbabwe and besides the crime epidemic the country is great. Almost all whites have moved out of the cities and into the rural areas..some as far as an hours drive from the nearest city as it's safer. I personally know of about a dozen friends that have moved to either the UK, Netherlands, the US or Oz and very few of them will admit how miserable they are being overseas. I spent seven years in the Netherlands and it felt like a jail sentence.

South Africa is my home and I love the country...even the scum criminals and government can't ruin it for me.:)

[Pidyon Shevuyim]

We have absolutely nowhere to go....and I for one will not leave. I live in a very nice town just outside of one of the major cities (Durban) off the east coast and I am perfectly happy with life in South Africa. I very much doubt that South Africa will go the way of Zimbuggered..er..Zimbabwe and besides the crime epidemic the country is great. Almost all whites have moved out of the cities and into the rural areas..some as far as an hours drive from the nearest city as it's safer. I personally know of about a dozen friends that have moved to either the UK, Netherlands, the US or Oz and very few of them will admit how miserable they are being overseas. I spent seven years in the Netherlands and it felt like a jail sentence.

South Africa is my home and I love the country...even the scum criminals and government can't ruin it for me.:)

thats good to hear...good to hear there still whites that feel non-threatend to leave...

[Vorster]

Being a saffer living in SA I have a few things to share.

First of as soon as I have a gap I will leave this country without flinching.

Secondly it is a beautifull country which I will miss and a will pluck a tear from my eye every time I hear Toto's Africa. (Great song and a great beer)

Thirdly education. Have you folks ever heard of the slogan "Liberation before Education"? Well that was the slogan thrown around in the townships during apartheid. It seems our esteemed goverment keeps on forgetting that the black youth of yesterday had just as much opportunities to learn as the whites did, but they chose to burn down the schools instead. Smart huh.

Universities were never segregated in SA. If you had the money you could go to a hisorically white or black varsity, in fact the historically balck varsities were some of the best and alot cheaper than the historically white varsities. One of the deans at our university got his degrees during the apartheid years. He is one of the greatest men I know and I have respect for his knowledge and wisdom. He had to walk to the university from the township every day but he did it.

Agricultural education has been going on for many years in this country. During the apartheid years alot of money was spent teaching black farmers more modern techniques and were even given equipment. Were has it all gone?

I think our problem is that it is easier to blame apartheid than to admit that you had the opputunities but did not use them. Prof Zibi is a shining example of what could be achieved by black south africans during apartheid.

[Trident-za]

Vorster, I too will leave the country without flinching... and I too will miss it terribly.

I'm in the peculiar position of having 2 family members who work for government, in quite high positions (one in Health, one in Housing). On the one hand, this just shows that even white people can get very good paying jobs for government, affirmative action not-withstanding. I get to hear a lot of stuff which never really gets out to the general public. Sadly, most of what I hear just fills me with horror. You would not believe how much inefficiency and downright lack of competence (or even interest in the job) there is in various high-up parts of the government. It's staggering, and very worrying - because the effects of this will only be felt in a few years time.

A good friend of mine last year had a shot at a top bursary to go study in the USA as a representative of South Africa. Can't remember the bursary name, but it's a very big deal - you need incredibly high marks to be considered, and then have to go through a lengthy interview process etc etc. He told me that the first question he was asked at the interview was "Given that you are not black, how do you intend to be a representative of South Africa?" BTW, this friend of mine is an Indian guy, and incredibly bright. Needless to say, he did not get the bursary... although he is studying in America anyway. The difference is, he is not coming back now - the powers that be don't appear to consider him South African.

Add crime and an economic structure where just about anything with technological value is compeltely and utterly overpriced to the mix... and I feel I have two options: (1) stay because this is a beautiful country, and I was born here - and just accept that there are going to be all sorts of problems for the next 30 years. Or (2) go to a place where I have a chance of living a peaceful life with less problems. I guess it all boils down to the criteria you use to define "quality of life". By my definition, my quality of life is declining every year in South Africa.... and even though I think this place has unbelievable potential, I'm choosing quality of life over patriotism.

[playtym]

Just to add to what Trident-za said.

When my fiancee finished school she wanted to go to medical school and study to be a forensic pathologist. She had straight A's - one of the brightest girls at her school. She was turned down because they had to make their quota of black students. A black girl who was at school with her getting straight D's was accepted.

People are now complaining that there aren't enough doctors in South Africa. The universities say that they only have facilities to admit something like 12,000 (IIRC) medical students a year, so can't train more doctors than they are already doing.

When will we come to the realisation that we need to admit 12,000 students that will qualify as doctors, rather than 9,000 that will drop out and 3,000 that will qualify? It's all well and good having affirmative action, but why do it to the detriment of the country?

And these are the same students that went on strike and demanded the right to re-write their exams when they failed, and then went on strike and demanded the right to carry on with the course anyway even though they failed the re-write. This was all after they went on strike and demanded the right to be admitted to the university even though they couldn't pay the fees. :cantbeli:

Would you let one of these "doctors" touch you?!?

And in the mean time my fiancee sits at home unemployed, after having had to study something far removed from what she originally wanted to do. And the really ****ed up thing is that she was only eleven (yes, she's a fair bit younger than me!) when we had our first democratic election in South Africa. She doesn't even remember apartheid, but she's now being disciminated against by the black government and their affirmative action policies.

[Sharkattack]

I guess being out of South Africa has given me a new insight into the different opinions coming out of the country. In one way I can see why a Saffer living in the Republic would be pessimistic and yes, there are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic...and on the other hand I have seen what the grass looks like on the other side and the grass is not greener. Europe in my opinion is only suitable for Europeans. I went from being excited at the European experience to miserable five long years later...the cold and wet, rude people, crowded cities, cramped apartments and awful food made me appreciate my country more than I have ever before.

South Africa is by no means a perfect country and yes there are several problems facing the country which the government is ignoring, and yes whites are being sidelined..the facts are there and it's a shocking scenario. What can we do. Life has to go on and there is money to be made.
It all depends on what your personal goals are at the end of the day.

[Lokos]

So come to Australia, for Christ's sake.

Lokos

[Trident-za]

So come to Australia, for Christ's sake.

Lokos

Working on it -end of the year is the plan ;)

Sharkattack, I agree with you to a large extent. And yes, European weather is pretty damn miserable.

[Sharkattack]

Working on it -end of the year is the plan ;)

Sharkattack, I agree with you to a large extent. And yes, European weather is pretty damn miserable.

Oz is appealing to me as well. I should take a look around there one day. One thing is for sure, the girls are helleva pretty.

[duck]

duck, sorry - I'm not actually sure what you are asking. What is an ex-ANCer? And which action are you referring to?

Well, replace that with present ANC members. And I was referring to the farm seizures.

[Red]

Setup is insepcting your hardware configuration.....

[Trident-za]

Well, replace that with present ANC members. And I was referring to the farm seizures.


I'm not actually sure. I don't really understand the politics of this place, and to be honest I generally try avoid any political stuff nowdays. I used to make an attempt to follow it all, but gave up in a combination of horror and bafflement.

I do know that there is more involved than just the ANC vs the Zulus. We have 11 official languages, of which 9 are "black languages". And we have many political parties - not sure how the language thing comes into it either. Plus, of course, we have to factor in various groups which are not political parties at all, but seem to have a say in just about everything. For example, the ANC Youth League (which is a serious misnomer, seeing as a good number of the "youth" are 40+) seems to think that it has the right to object to everything from the composition of our national rugby team to the Jacob Zuma rape trial. How this all works out from a political standpoint, and how it all interacts is beyond me. I'm not the guy to tell you how this farm seizure is viewed by the different political groups. Sorry.

On another note... I've found no reference to this "farm seizure" in our local news. If it wasn't for this thread, I'd not know about it.

[Trident-za]

Yep the White Saffers are having a rough time due to the Black devils and their evil ways.

No Red. You are delibrately trying to make this racial, and it's not (or shouldn't be). It's not really about white Saffers having a rough time... it's about Saffers of all colors - trust me, plenty qualified black people have left SA - making the decision to settle for what's on offer, or attempting to improve their life elsewhere.

There are racial reasons why white people do feel excluded - affirmative action is a reality, and by definition it's racial. And, I guess there are a number of Saffers who are still very racist. But, if you are trying to insinuate that I'm leaving my country because I'm a racist then you are very wrong. Apart from the obvious issues of me having attended a multi-racial school in the 1980s and having several non-white friends, I actually really sympathize with the ANC - soooo many issues, and not enough money to solve it all. That doesn't change reality though - whether these issues are understandable or not is irrelevant to their impact on you. I'd like to avoid them. Quite frankly, I'm sure you would too.

Edit: OK, to put it into perspective a bit. In the last 4 years, I've had my car broken into 4 times in my own yard (with a pretty high wall), and its been broken into 3 times in town. Twice in the last year I've looked out the window near my PC to see an African gentleman strolling through my yard (who knows how many times people have been in the yard when I didn't look). Last year at one point we have 28 burglaries in my street (which is about 1km long) in one week. Nowdays, if I want to go out for a cigarette at night, I have to turn off the 3 alarm systems (we have 2 seperate "rings" of security alarms, plus 6 motion detectors outside those rings). Just to have a smoke. In the last 2 weeks the alarm has gone off 3 times. About 3 months ago, we had an attempted carjacking right outside our property - 3 guys with AK-47s attempted to hijack the dude who had just installed spikes along our perimeter fence. He did prove that a person CAN get over the fence even with the spikes, although it cost him a huge sum in medical bills to get his hands sewed up again. This last weekend one of my wife's students had to deal with a murder right in his driveway - the victim was his local ward councillor. Word on the street is that it was a political hit. This is one week after the school just down the road had to admit several students to the hospital because of a "chemical leak" (read this as industry illegally dumping toxic waste). Out of a postgrad class (for my wife) of about 15 students last year (8 females) , 3 female students had to get postponements on assignment due dates because they had been raped.

[Red]

No Red. You are delibrately trying to make this racial, and it's not (or shouldn't be). It's not really about white Saffers having a rough time... it's about Saffers of all colors - trust me, plenty qualified black people have left SA - making the decision to settle for what's on offer, or attempting to improve their life elsewhere.

There are racial reasons why white people do feel excluded - affirmative action is a reality, and by definition it's racial. And, I guess there are a number of Saffers who are still very racist. But, if you are trying to insinuate that I'm leaving my country because I'm a racist then you are very wrong. Apart from the obvious issues of me having attended a multi-racial school in the 1980s and having several non-white friends, I actually really sympathize with the ANC - soooo many issues, and not enough money to solve it all. That doesn't change reality though - whether these issues are understandable or not is irrelevant to their impact on you. I'd like to avoid them. Quite frankly, I'm sure you would too.

The statement was rather mongish of me anyways and i do apologise
Nah, that's not what i was getting at. I've talked a bit with you on this board and the last thing on earth i'll call you is racist. Your a good guy. What i was getting at was the whole cycle of stupidity going on in SA. I've met a few black SA's in the US (all snooty) as well as white SA's (cool for the most part except one at Microsoft) and i know leaving SA for greener pastures cuts across race. What gets me though is that folks are surprised at the situation. This was bound to happen under the management of the ANC.

[DanteXavier]

Edit: OK, to put it into perspective a bit. In the last 4 years, I've had my car broken into 4 times in my own yard (with a pretty high wall), and its been broken into 3 times in town. Twice in the last year I've looked out the window near my PC to see an African gentleman strolling through my yard (who knows how many times people have been in the yard when I didn't look). Last year at one point we have 28 burglaries in my street (which is about 1km long) in one week. Nowdays, if I want to go out for a cigarette at night, I have to turn off the 3 alarm systems (we have 2 seperate "rings" of security alarms, plus 6 motion detectors outside those rings). Just to have a smoke. In the last 2 weeks the alarm has gone off 3 times. About 3 months ago, we had an attempted carjacking right outside our property - 3 guys with AK-47s attempted to hijack the dude who had just installed spikes along our perimeter fence. He did prove that a person CAN get over the fence even with the spikes, although it cost him a huge sum in medical bills to get his hands sewed up again. This last weekend one of my wife's students had to deal with a murder right in his driveway - the victim was his local ward councillor. Word on the street is that it was a political hit. This is one week after the school just down the road had to admit several students to the hospital because of a "chemical leak" (read this as industry illegally dumping toxic waste). Out of a postgrad class (for my wife) of about 15 students last year (8 females) , 3 female students had to get postponements on assignment due dates because they had been raped.

Man, I had wanted to hope that it wasn't as terrible as I had been guessing, but it's actually somewhat worse than i thought judging from what you're telling me. You have my condolences, really.

BTW, anyone have an answer to my question here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2315424&postcount=56

Also, have you known any saffers who have done this or are considering it? Because Namibia has a number of whites, some of whom are Afrikaners, and I'm wondering if a large number of them came from SA or not.

[Pvt.Anderson]

I guess being out of South Africa has given me a new insight into the different opinions coming out of the country. In one way I can see why a Saffer living in the Republic would be pessimistic and yes, there are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic...and on the other hand I have seen what the grass looks like on the other side and the grass is not greener. Europe in my opinion is only suitable for Europeans. I went from being excited at the European experience to miserable five long years later...the cold and wet, rude people, crowded cities, cramped apartments and awful food made me appreciate my country more than I have ever before.

South Africa is by no means a perfect country and yes there are several problems facing the country which the government is ignoring, and yes whites are being sidelined..the facts are there and it's a shocking scenario. What can we do. Life has to go on and there is money to be made.
It all depends on what your personal goals are at the end of the day.

oh come on was it that bad where have you been ? talking of the people the weather and the food being that bad shows that you have no clue what you're talking about

[playtym]

Just to reinforce his claims that crime in South Africa isn't bad Thabo Mbeki has decided to build a 90 million rand wall around his house.


Mbeki's 'secret' R90m wall

2007-2-20 08:45

Pretoria - President Thabo Mbeki is building a wall estimated at R90m around his official house in Pretoria.
The contractors who are building the wall, have been sworn to secrecy and would not talk about it.
Beeld got nowhere with enquiries into the new structure at the presidential home in Bryntirion estate on Monday.
It was reliably learnt that the wall is being imported from overseas. The foundations have already been dug.
The project is expected to fly in the face of Mbeki's TV interview last month, when he said it was "a perception that crime is out of control".
He was more moderate in his State of the Nation address.
"We cannot overcome that which is ugly and objectionable in the land and taste the joy of freedom if our community lives in fear, locked up behind high walls and barbed wire," he said in that speech.
An employee of JFE Securities confirmed on Monday that his company is building the structure, but he would not elaborate. "I am not allowed to talk about it. There are a few secrecy clauses in the contract," he said.
Beeld was referred to Lucia Mabuza, the project manager. Mabuza, a former employee of the Public Works Department who now runs her own business, at first said she wasn't involved with the project. When called a second time she said, "I know about it, but I don't deal with media enquiries".
"The project has nothing to do with Beeld. You're talking to the wrong person." Lucky Mochalibane of the Public Works Department said the department would respond on Tuesday.
"It's a sensitive subject, but definitely not a secret. We'll issue a statement on Tuesday," said Mukoni Rat****anga, spokesperson for the presidency, referred questions to the public works department, explaining that they decide on what happens at the presidency. Rat****anga did not want to say if the present crime situation had played a role in the decision to build the wall.

http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=425811

HaaHaaHaa! rofl rofl This stupid filter is censoring the chaps name. That's way funny. I guess it wasn't designed to handle African names.

[Sharkattack]

oh come on was it that bad where have you been ? talking of the people the weather and the food being that bad shows that you have no clue what you're talking about

That's a simplistic remark.

In truth I am making my assumption on my experiences in the Netherlands. It was cramped, it did rain almost the whole year..and the rest I will refrain from repeating..:)

[Vorster]

Guys the country is going down faster than the brass band on the Titanic. Now a bit of info on the farm seisures.

About 4 weeks ago my brother in law who is a police reservist was send out to a farm in the middelburg region were 300 SACP youth league members rocked up to take over the farm.

They waved around all forms of traditional weapons and made bold threads that they will kill the farmer. So there they were 25 policemen against 300 militant blacks. One little bastard walked up to his commander and waving a panga (machette) told him he was going to kill him. What this little turd did not know was 1. that the cops had been issued live ammo with orders to use it if things just got the slightest out of hand 2. he was a former member of the National Intelligence Agency, Koevoet and PW Botha's bodyguard.

His repsonse was that he was welcome to try.

Our goverment does not need to reposes farms when the general farming poppulace is being slaugtered on the farms.

Enough said.

[Sharkattack]

Guys the country is going down faster than the brass band on the Titanic. Now a bit of info on the farm seisures.

About 4 weeks ago my brother in law who is a police reservist was send out to a farm in the middelburg region were 300 SACP youth league members rocked up to take over the farm.

They waved around all forms of traditional weapons and made bold threads that they will kill the farmer. So there they were 25 policemen against 300 militant blacks. One little bastard walked up to his commander and waving a panga (machette) told him he was going to kill him. What this little turd did not know was 1. that the cops had been issued live ammo with orders to use it if things just got the slightest out of hand 2. he was a former member of the National Intelligence Agency, Koevoet and PW Botha's bodyguard.

His repsonse was that he was welcome to try.

Our goverment does not need to reposes farms when the general farming poppulace is being slaugtered on the farms.

Enough said.

This is some scary s**t! If the government lets this escalate and the police in other regions (obviously the cops in Middelburgh don't take kak) fail to react to other attempted land grabs the poo is going to hit the fan on a grand scale.

[Vorster]

Strange thing it was the regional police commisioner, who is black, who ordered that they be issued "skerppunt ammunisie" live ammo. It seems that the goverment isn't going to take this kind of crap.

Hopefully this was a flash in the pan.

Even stranger it wasn't reported in the general media. It seems it is also kept under raps to keep a general panic or the problem spreading.

[Rune_X2]

More than a decade after the end of apartheid, over 90 per cent of farmland is still owned by the white elite.I think in most western nations more than 90% of the farm land is owned by less than 10% of the population. In Denmark it's owned by something like 3% of the population. That's really not a problem, since farming is generally not such a lucrative occupation and most people earn much more that farmers on a much shorter work day. And I seriously doubt the SA farmers can be called "elite" - regardless of the colour of their skin.

However if South Africa finds it need land distribution, then there's a right and a wrong way to do it. The right way is for the state to purchase the land from farmers whom part with it freely because they find the price right. The wrong way is to force farmers to part with their land by outright stealing as in Zimbabwe or by strong arm tactics as seem to be what they do in SA.

[Sharkattack]

I think in most western nations more than 90% of the farm land is owned by less than 10% of the population. In Denmark it's owned by something like 3% of the population. That's really not a problem, since farming is generally not such a lucrative occupation and most people earn much more that farmers on a much shorter work day. And I seriously doubt the SA farmers can be called "elite" - regardless of the colour of their skin.

However if South Africa finds it need land distribution, then there's a right and a wrong way to do it. The right way is for the state to purchase the land from farmers whom part with it freely because they find the price right. The wrong way is to force farmers to part with their land by outright stealing as in Zimbabwe or by strong arm tactics as seem to be what they do in SA.

Vorster I hope you're right.

A good post Rune_X2. I never knew the stats but what you say does make sense. I hope someone relaises this soon before we end up sitting with thousands of acres of farmland that the South African government expropriated for a bargain price and which will now be used for squatter camps as in Zimbuggered..er Zimbabwe.

A Pretoria newspaper columnist today described the shockingly high murder rate in South Africa as a suble low intensity guerilla warfare designed to scare whites out of the country. The slaughter of a few thousand white farmers on isolated farms is testament to a far sinister third force operating in the country.

[playtym]

I think in most western nations more than 90% of the farm land is owned by less than 10% of the population. In Denmark it's owned by something like 3% of the population. That's really not a problem, since farming is generally not such a lucrative occupation and most people earn much more that farmers on a much shorter work day.

This is applying first world logic to a third problem. Here if you have a piece of land a a few cows you're considered to be a wealthy man. That's how the traditional tribal africans measure wealth, and they all want their piece of land - regardless of whether they're going to farm it or not.



Even stranger it wasn't reported in the general media. It seems it is also kept under raps to keep a general panic or the problem spreading.

While we're talking of keeping stuff under raps and out of the media (and to play devils advocate).

What's everybodys take on Operation Vula / Uhuru / Night of the Long Knives? I see this has started doing the rounds via email again. This is supposedly where all the blacks in the country are supposed to rise up on a predetermined signal (supposedly the death of Nelson Mandela) and kill all of the whites. What are your feelings regarding this? What have you heard, if anything? Discuss.

[Vorster]

And I seriously doubt the SA farmers can be called "elite" - regardless of the colour of their skin.

Been there and can say out of expierence it is a hard to farm in this country. Any one who does it cannot be called elite because most are just keeping head above water.

[Hellfish]

Never heard anything about it (Uhuru).

[Vorster]

Uhuru hmm will keep my comments to myself. Did recieve a sms about 2 minutes ago that mandela is in a coma.

[Sharkattack]

playtym my colleague sitting across from me in the office has been harping on about this for months (he's a former 32 Batt. Sgt Major) and he keeps saying to me that we should not take this Operation Vula theory too lightly. I hope he's wrong.

[playtym]

Uhuru hmm will keep my comments to myself. Did recieve a sms about 2 minutes ago that mandela is in a coma.


playtym my colleague sitting across from me in the office has been harping on about this for months (he's a former 32 Batt. Sgt Major) and he keeps saying to me that we should not take this Operation Vula theory too lightly. I hope he's wrong.

First thing I'm doing when I get home tonight is giving the rifles a good once over. Just to be safe, hey. Gotta make sure the FN, LM and AR's are in tip-top shape just incase there's anything to this rumour. p-)

[Vorster]

Ja wel fok my. I am will take heed as it is smart to take some form of precaution but I will not start stocking up the bully or running around with a R4 capping people.

[playtym]

Ja wel fok my. I am will take heed as it is smart to take some form of precaution but I will not start stocking up the bully or running around with a R4 capping people.

Sure, no need to do anything extreme just yet. First thing I learnt as a boy scout though was "be prepared." :)

[Sharkattack]

I am dying to get my hands on an R1. That was and will always be my favourite weapon. Maybe I should just walk into a copshop. hold everyone up and go through the weapons safe...it seems to be the fad these days..hehe!

[playtym]

I'm sure you wouldn't have to try too hard to find someone willing to sell you theirs. They'll just report it lost and get another one issued to them. Try Durban Metro - despite what Mike Sutcliffe says I believe they're pretty free with their weapons.

[Sharkattack]

I'm sure you wouldn't have to try too hard to find someone willing to sell you theirs. They'll just report it lost and get another one issued to them. Try Durban Metro - despite what Mike Sutcliffe says I believe they're pretty free with their weapons.

Good tip. I wonder if they'll throw a case of ammo in with the deal..

[playtym]

Good tip. I wonder if they'll throw a case of ammo in with the deal..

Comes complimentary, along with all of your oustanding traffic fines being written off I hear. p-)

[Vorster]

A buddy of mine inspects Cop Shops. He found a rural one in which the safe door had been cut off because some one lsot the key. All the weapons were in the safe as per regs after 5 allthough it did not have a door. Smart huh.

[playtym]

A buddy of mine inspects Cop Shops. He found a rural one in which the safe door had been cut off because some one lsot the key. All the weapons were in the safe as per regs after 5 allthough it did not have a door. Smart huh.

OMG! That's priceless!!! rofl That just illustrates the logic we're faced with here in Africa though, doesn't it?

[Vorster]

Jip it does. So any one want to go do some shopping now the time.

[Sharkattack]

Jip it does. So any one want to go do some shopping now the time.

This is going to be easier than what I thought. I scheme I'll take two R1's.

Have you ous seen the latest news...the cops are telling people to ignore the Uhuru emails and sms's going around. Sounds like a bit of a knee jerk reaction. How could 9% of the population make our 'professional' police force so nervous huh....:)

[playtym]

Just seen it on news 24. The MP.net Saffie intelligence branch is way ahead of them!


.....saying they are without substance.

They would say that though, wouldn't they? Even if it was true. p-)

[Trident-za]

I'm inclined to think this 'Uhuru' stuff is just nonsense. It would take a major feat of organization for there to be a genral outbreak of black on white violence like this.... and the government can't afford to let it happen. They are currently trying to convince the world they can host the 2010 world cup, right? And trying to entice skilled people into returning to SA.

[Sharkattack]

I'm inclined to think this 'Uhuru' stuff is just nonsense. It would take a major feat of organization for there to be a genral outbreak of black on white violence like this.... and the government can't afford to let it happen. They are currently trying to convince the world they can host the 2010 world cup, right? And trying to entice skilled people into returning to SA.

This article is interesting:

Crime definitely pays!
Question: "What is the influence of crime on the S.A. Govt?"
Answer: Crime generates millions and millions of Rand's for the S.A.
Govt
Here are the facts:
Example 1:
Take just one million home owners in Gauteng who pay for "armed crime
reaction" (not crime prevention) where private security companies react
AFTER the crime has taken place - no wonder they never make any arrests!
This service costs on average R250 p.m. Therefore 1 000,000 x R240.00 X
12 months x 14% VAT, generates R403 million in tax revenue for the S.A. Govt!
Example 2:
A car thief steals a R500,000 car and receives between R10,000 and
R30,000 for his deed.
The car owner is paid out by insurance and then purchases another
similar vehicle, on which he pays 14% VAT of approx R70,000 as a direct
result of crime. Who profited the most? The thief or the S.A.Govt?
We must begin with a mechanism whereby the S.A. Govt is forced to
reconsider this unconstitutional and immoral practice of profiting from
crime!
All South Africans should demand that all payments related to protection
of life and property should be VAT free and Tax deductible!
This principle should also apply to replacement of stolen property as
well as estate duty. If a person dies as a result of crime we should
also demand that estate duty not be paid.
How much do you think the S.A. Govt has made out of estate duty from the
murders of 1300 South African farmers?
The S.A. Govt likes to compare us to overseas. Well overseas, your
safety and security is covered by your income tax and is tax deductible!
It is time that South Africans stood together and made the Govt and
public aware of the Govt's "income" from crime. In the meantime crime is
the goose that lays the golden egg.
Is it also not unreasonable to expect victims of violence and hijackings
to pay their own medical costs? The Govt should pay for these expenses
as well as family counselling for victims!
Come on South Africa, ask the right questions and demand the right
answers!

[playtym]

Yeah, that's the other email doing the rounds at the moment. It would be the best thing ever if Trevor would make all security/insurance related expenses tax deductible in his budget speach - then we could all build 90 million rand walls around our houses and claim it back from the government. :)

[Vorster]

How many farms could have been legally bought for R90 million. Assholes.

[Sharkattack]

Yeah, that's the other email doing the rounds at the moment. It would be the best thing ever if Trevor would make all security/insurance related expenses tax deductible in his budget speach - then we could all build 90 million rand walls around our houses and claim it back from the government. :)


Remember the stink caused about four years ago when the residents of Houghton and Sandton started building gated communities and the government wanted to block the projects?

I guess if you completely block yourself off from the problem it'll magically disappear huh..:bash:

[playtym]

I recon old Taibo just doesn't get along with his neighbours - he surely can't be building this wall to keep out our non-existent crime problem?

[playtym]

Does anyone know if there's a download available for the BBC World documentary regarding crime in south Africa that aired on 8 February - the day before our State of the Nation address?

There's a very interesting response to this from the ANC - http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/anctoday/2007/at06.htm#art1

Here are some excerpts.


The day before President Thabo Mbeki delivered the State of the Nation address at a joint sitting of Parliament last week, on 8 February, the international television network, BBC World, broadcast a documentary claiming to be a report on crime in South Africa. Its result, if not its intention, was to perpetuate the notion that Johannesburg, and South Africa, is "the crime capital of the world".
We have no doubt that this broadcast represented a deliberate attempt by BBC World to insert itself as a player in the determination of our future as a people. Thus BBC World was determined to ensure that what it had resolved to say about our country, it said at a moment that would make the maximum impact on our country's national consciousness and agenda. Fully understanding the importance of the State of the Nation address, it decided that it would broadcast the programme we are discussing on the very eve of this address, and not a day later or earlier.


Just over three years from now, and as millions of foreign tourists have done over the thirteen years of our democracy, the visitors who will attend the FIFA Soccer World Cup tournament will depart our shores puzzled about why supposedly reliable reporters of world affairs, such as BBC World, went out of their way to frighten them that our people are predatory and violent criminals.
The BBC World documentary confirmed that in conditions of war, even when it is conducted without guns, the truth would always be the first casualty. It showed how easily the media can be exploited to use propaganda to create the illusion of reality. It made the statement that until the hunted produce their own historians, so long will their victories be obliterated from the human record by those who arrogate to themselves the right to define themselves as victorious hunters.
Everything we have said communicates the unequivocal message that to avoid unnecessary disappointment and surprise in future, we must teach ourselves to expect that those who hold us in contempt, regardless of what they profess concerning their liberal and progressive credentials, will continue to represent us as violent criminals, or anything else that helps to feed the deeply embedded stereotype that Africans are less than human, or, at least, genetically inferior.

All I'm wondering is..... did Robert Mugabe write this for them?

It seems as if the evil western powers and their media puppets have set out to destroy yet another model African democracy.

[Trident-za]

Rather typical response though, Playtym. I often think the only real obstacle SA has is that it's ruling party does not deal with problems (ever) - they merely shift the blame or do whatever is necessary to distract the electorate from the actual issue.

On a slightly different issue: how many of the people who voted for the ANC actually have the means to access the ANC website? Since telecommunication costs is yet another of those issues the government tries to avoid dealing with.

And to Sharkattack - interesting post on the government's earnings from crime. I'd never actually thought about it, but its kind of scary.

[Pvt.Anderson]

That's a simplistic remark.

In truth I am making my assumption on my experiences in the Netherlands. It was cramped, it did rain almost the whole year..and the rest I will refrain from repeating..:)

oh come on Amsterdam for example is awesome and the weather usually is not thaat rainy .

but you make justify your argument with your experiences from the Netherlands . Europe has a lot more to offer in the south for example ;Italy ,southern France or Spain should be more fitting for your demands (weatherwise and maybe even people wise)

[Trident-za]

Pvt.Anderson, I think the problem is that "nice weather" is relative. I've been astounded in the past to see European people in South Africa walking around in shorts and t-shirts (and wanting to swim!) during our winter. For them, its a nice day, for me it's f'ing cold. Last time I was in London was in early April, and I thought I was going to die it was so "cold". I eventually took to stopping at every public toilet that I walked past, so I could use the hand dryer thing to warm my hands up. Where I live, anything below 15 degrees Celcius is considered chilly, anything below 10 is just downright silly.

Having said that, it was probably a bit of an over-generalisation about Europe as a whole.

[Sharkattack]

oh come on Amsterdam for example is awesome and the weather usually is not thaat rainy .

but you make justify your argument with your experiences from the Netherlands . Europe has a lot more to offer in the south for example ;Italy ,southern France or Spain should be more fitting for your demands (weatherwise and maybe even people wise)

I loved Ibiza, Rhodos and Tuscany in the summer...fantastic holidays. I visited Paris twice and had awesome experiences. I still think the Netherlands sucks though..hehehehe!! I regret never getting to any of the Scandinavian countries.

[Erik Sleivöks]

oh come on Amsterdam for example is awesome and the weather usually is not thaat rainy .

but you make justify your argument with your experiences from the Netherlands . Europe has a lot more to offer in the south for example ;Italy ,southern France or Spain should be more fitting for your demands (weatherwise and maybe even people wise)

I was born in Norway and lived my first 20 years there. For the next 15 years I was living in the South of France while traveling all over the world (except Asia) for my work. Then 4 years in South Africa before going 3 years ago to Iran (what a brilliant idea):cantbeli: .
My only hope is to go back to South Africa, crime or not, South Africa is the greatest place to live on earth. The Country is nice, the living conditions are great, the girls are beautiful, the food is excellent, and I do not think that you can find better and more reliable friends than a straight forward, honest, white South African.

In comparison the Scandinavians (I am one, and I know them and their lifestyle very well) live in an egocentric Stone Age, and the rest of Europe is not much better.
Europeans have high salaries, but they cannot afford to eat proper food and they live in flats that are size of an average South African parking bay. They spend most of the year in rain or snow, dreaming about their 3 weeks of holyday in Thailand or Turkey.

If you consider the white South African farmers an “elite” that is living of the back of the poor blacks, please go the Frankfurt or Bethlehem in the Free State and visit some farms.
There you will see how elite they are; they are just straight forward, hard working and honest people that have been there for centuries. There are plenty of farms for sale, and there is nothing stopping anybody (black, yellow, brown, or pink from Cape Town) from borrowing money from the bank and by a farm. But some people just want everything for free and they want it now. They do not even know what hard work is and they have no intention of ever working, but they want “moooney” now.

[gash]

You can’t really oppress a race of people in their own land and not expect some form of payback, it all seem pretty reasonable to me. After having watched the SA fishing industry being redistributed I have a lot of confidence in the land reforms. My relations in SA have managed to roll with the changes and are still making a buck.


you mr are a dumb ass. you have obviously no brains between your ears and should maybe try you hand at south african politics where it seems you would fit in much better than trying to talk and bit of sense on this here forum.

all that affirmative action is in south africa is racism towards whites made comfortable. an excuse for racism. an excuse. an excuse to waste time in yesteryears's problems. we have a great country. its beautiful. and the government of today is just making a mockery of it

[playtym]

2007-3-2 09:16
Johannesburg - Police are investigating possible links between the Boeremag, 23 of whose members are standing trial in Pretoria, and a far right-wing group called the "Suidlanders" (South landers), the Mail & Guardian Online reported on Friday.

The Suidlanders shot to public notice last week as the organisation behind the Nelson Mandela "hoax emails" feverishly circulated on the internet.
Claiming the authorities had covered up Mandela's death to avoid "mass hysteria", it called on Afrikaners to stockpile fuel and food and to assemble at certain points for their safety.
Police investigators working on the Boeremag treason trial said this week that the Soweto bombers currently on trial in Pretoria - Herman van Rooyen, the three Pretorius brothers and Rudi Gouws - referred to themselves as Suidlanders.
Documents found on Boeremag murder and treason accused Wilhelm Pretorius's computer link the name Suidlanders with the Boeremag. Among them was a Suidlander oath. And Nelson Mandela's death was central to the Boeremag apocalypse, which predicted a massacre of whites after his funeral and a right-wing coup.
State witnesses in the Boeremag trial have described the organisation's plans to stockpile fuel, weapons, ammunition, food and medicine and to create meeting points as a prelude to an uprising.
The emblem adopted by the Suidlanders, which appeared on their internet statement last week, is the same as that used by the Boeremag.
A police investigator said last week's scaremongering was taken seriously by law enforcers and a possible Boeremag connection was being investigated.
The Suidlanders alleged leader is Gustav Muller, who is known to see himself as the Joshua of the Afrikaner volk, appointed by God to lead it to freedom. The group's spokesperson is Tanya du Preez, who in messages posted on the internet forum Boerevryheid.co.za signs herself Racheltjie de Beer - a famous Afrikaans folk heroine.

http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=437401

[Rudolph]

So, let's see how productive white farm seizures have been:

FF+ laments land reform
(http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2410363,00.html)15/10/2008 20:23 - (SA)


Cape Town - The new ANC leadership should realise that transferring land to previously disadvantaged people is not the answer to poverty, the Freedom Front Plus said on Wednesday.

"The acquisition of more agricultural land in order for it to be handed to black communities is not the answer to poverty in rural areas," FF+ leader Pieter Mulder said in a statement.

Mulder was responding to a statement by ANC president Jacob Zuma on Tuesday, calling for a speedier land distribution process.

"The government should rather render assistance after land has been handed to communities and improve the process through which land is given to black communities," Mulder said.

Only 30% of all land transferred by government since 1994 was being used productively.

"The Zuma-ANC leadership would do themselves a favour if they learn from the mistakes of the Mbeki government, that the volume of land in the hands of black people has not made a difference to rural poverty," Mulder said.
- SAPA

[richyrichard]

You can’t really oppress a race of people in their own land and not expect some form of payback, it all seem pretty reasonable to me. After having watched the SA fishing industry being redistributed I have a lot of confidence in the land reforms. My relations in SA have managed to roll with the changes and are still making a buck.

In their own land? Lets remember that Africa is not a country, its a continent. SA has never been a Black country. Wasn't SA uninhabited when the Brits first arrived there and settled the area?
__________________________
www.richard-t-osborne.com (http://www.richard-t-osborne.com)
www.lonewolfsurvivalist.com (http://www.lonewolfsurvivalist.com)

[richyrichard]

These people will be back to painting their faces and living in caves if they keep up this racist/criminal redistribution of land.

Indeed, it is a blatantly racist program. When Whites are in the minority, we are evil because we are "suppressing" the black majority. When we are the majority, we are still evil because we are "suppressing" the black minority. Liberal equalitarians are simply anti-white, no matter what.

This insane drive to turn civilization over to the anthropoids of the world will indeed throw humanity back six thousand years.
________________________
www.richard-t-osborne.com (http://www.richard-t-osborne.com)
www.lonewolfsurvivalist.com (http://www.lonewolfsurvivalist.com)

[IraGlacialis]

You can’t really oppress a race of people in their own land and not expect some form of payback, it all seem pretty reasonable to me.
"Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Wasn't SA uninhabited when the Brits first arrived there and settled the area?
rofl

This insane drive to turn civilization over to the anthropoids of the world will indeed throw humanity back six thousand years.Dude... wat.

[PeterRJG]

In their own land? Lets remember that Africa is not a country, its a continent. SA has never been a Black country. Wasn't SA uninhabited when the Brits first arrived there and settled the area?


No, it wasn't uninhabited and it wasn't the British that arrived there first.

[Rudolph]

"richyrichard" needed to be calmed down. Thanks. Many parts of what is today South Africa was inhabited. Many parts were not, as well. The only thing I don't like is the blanket statements often reported by left-leaning media that everythig in SA is automatically the properly of any black person. That is ludicrous. Few areas had permanent settlements.

Go and wiki "Zulu" and read about the decemation the Xhosa faced under them for some understanding in the tribal conflict we see rising today in Zuma vs. the rest. Then look at the dates: Zulus arrived in SA around 1500, Xhosa around 500 AD. Yet, the Zulus have a larger population, and have caused more war than any other tribe. Critics do not factor in the different tribes, which till today seperate even European countries where people speak the same languages. But that's less important now.

If the report is correct in stating that only 30% of farmland transferred is producing product, then we are heading for severe foot shotages once more land has been transferred, and that's a major problem in this continent already. Even Europe will have to find an alternate important for fresh fruits and such. I'm pretty sure we're still a net exporter. DanteXavier put it best: quality learnership programs need to be put in place, so that a natural hand-over can occur once enough skills have been transferred to the black population, who have little management experience with commercial farming. Bursaries for agricultural schools need to be made available and advertised to the black population as well.

I should also add that while the process isn't perfect, most farms are bought from white farmers, not simply taken. But there are problems in that farmers can be forced to accept whatever price the government offers - sometimes below market value. What the government is not clear on, or honest about, is the millions of ha. of irregated, and dry-, farmland they own. Even before 1994 most land was owned by government, not private owners - many farms were leased. In some ways this parallels the situation in Zimbabwe, where political players manipulate the poor to accept whatever premise they offer, to gain votes once they "liberate" the farms from the former oppressor.

[rhodtpr]

[quote=Rudolph;3622020]"richyrichard" needed to be calmed down. Thanks. Many parts of what is today South Africa was inhabited. Many parts were not, as well. The only thing I don't like is the blanket statements often reported by left-leaning media that everythig in SA is automatically the properly of any black person. That is ludicrous. Few areas had permanent settlements.

Then look at the dates: Zulus arrived in SA around 1500, Xhosa around 500 AD..."


And before that date the region was inhabited by the Khoi San people (the bushman) who were nearly exterminated during the Bantu expansion into Southern Africa.

That is the futility about the "you stole the land of my ancestors argument"...go back far enough and you can always find someone whose land was taken unjustly.

Heck, if you want to really get ridiculous you could argue Africa belongs to all of mankind...that is where human beings got their start early in our evolutionary history.:|

[SilentType]

You can’t really oppress a race of people in their own land and not expect some form of payback, it all seem pretty reasonable to me. After having watched the SA fishing industry being redistributed I have a lot of confidence in the land reforms. My relations in SA have managed to roll with the changes and are still making a buck.

The question is who is this land being "distributed to?" Is it being distributed to individuals who have a valid claim to the land (ie held it before whites)?

The government in the United States of America can take land from one private person and give it to another private person if there is some public gain that comes from the transfer. However, the owner of the land is paid the fair market value for it before the government can take it.

My question would be will the new land owners be able to farm the land to at least the same degree as the white farmers? Do they have the money in other words to make a go of it or will they be given the money through some government grant to makea go of it? Otherwise you are asking for economic trouble.

Also how much redistribution is enough? Is there an end point? Is the process transparent and is there due process of law afforded to all involved?

[tea drinker]

It's ironic that you can do this to your own colour / race, retribution free.

[Bushranger]

Personally... my wife and I are heading to Australia within the next 12 months. I love South Africa (great place, enormous potential), but I can't see how the situation won't deteriorate over the next 10 years, and I don't want to be stuck, wishing I'd left..

Its bad the events that are happening in SA to see such a beautiful country going the way it is, is sad. Well i say Trident your more than welcome to come to OZ & its very similar to SA. Jou gaan liefde alles. hope thats correct im a little rusty. :)

[alexgodinez]

so what people are saying, it dosnt matter that blacks were enslaved and they should never ever colozine their land again??? RACIST!

[Rudolph]

so what people are saying, it dosnt matter that blacks were enslaved and they should never ever colozine their land again??? RACIST!

You must be one of those "special" people who hasn't ever read anything about the country and just says whatever comes to mind? Slavery? Really? Actually we imported them from Malaysia under the Dutch. Other black tribes killed about 3 million blacks, we never wiped out any tribe. What land? Only a small portion of the country was populated and the different tribes/races developed seperately.

[Rudolph]

Less land for farming (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2472924,00.html)
19/02/2009 18:08 - (SA)


Pretoria - A decrease in land usage for farming was placing a "serious burden" on farmers, agricultural union TAU SA said on Thursday.

In a statement the body said the findings of the census of commercial agriculture 2007 showed that there was a decrease totalling 17 998 of farming units since 1993.

It said that it could be concluded that land used for production was decreasing.

"This places a serious burden on the shoulders of farmers utilising their land productively," said TAU SA.

The findings were released in Pretoria on Tuesday.

TAU SA president Ben Marais said that agricultural land which was already scarce was becoming "even scarcer".

This he said could be ascribed to agricultural land being claimed by communities, farm murders which impacted on the productivity of the land, and rising input costs.

Commenting on the global financial crisis, Marais said results for the country would be crushing should optimal usage of land not be assured.

"It is in the interests of this country's citizens that the authorities should activate action plans to ensure that South Africa will be able to produce sufficient food for domestic purposes as well as for export to neighbouring states where famine is rapidly becoming a reality," said Marais.

The census covered 39 982 active commercial farming units but excluded small scale and subsistence farmers.

This was a 12.7% decrease compared to the 45 818 farming units that were active in the previous census.

- SAPA

[Rudolph]

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/rDWytGah4gk

[Walter Sobchak]

I wonder what's going to eventually happen to Africa. Tribal warfare, famine, disease (especially AIDS), corruption, over-population and ethnic cleansing will eventually depopulate the continent.

[G-AWZT]

So long SA. RIP.

[LEGEND]

Legally or not, people need to arm themselves there to be able to defend themselves. That video above is ridiculous...

[I can't think of a name]

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/rDWytGah4gk

I see that South Africa is so much better off now with its enlightened new form of rule preventing people from defending themselves.

[Walter Sobchak]

Why does this surprise anyone? With this going on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc

And this response from the ironically named "Safety and Security Minister":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G5bXsF2qQs&feature=related

The message is loud and clear: If you're of European ancestry, leave or die.

How many times has this been the inevitable result of "majority rule" or "independence" in Africa? And to what result? Just every malady, plague and pestilence known to man always follows!

[tea drinker]

so what people are saying, it dosnt matter that blacks were enslaved and they should never ever colozine their land again??? RACIST!
By your rationale it is ok for me to go to africa and start masacaring folk to claim back my forefathers land? We all came from somewhere down there, I'm white - but my distant ancestors were black. Is there some sort of time limit on the validity of my claim, and where is that recorded?

I feel like a victim and need support, I am forced to work everyday to afford to type on the internetz.




The message is loud and clear: If you're of European ancestry, leave or die.
WE are all black, and white. FFS we all have African ancestry.

[LordKitchener]

WE are all black, and white. FFS we all have African ancestry.

You subscribe to that half-assed theory that Africans were here first and then the rest of us somehow mutated into other races?? Our knowledge of how we are here is still very limited but let's not state extravagant theories as fact.

Anyway, this is just another sad story about a rapidly degenerating South Africa.

[drevil5000]

The land reform programme is being done completely wrong. There is no need to expropriate land or force farmers off their land. At any given time there are hundreds of thousands of hectares of farm land for sale on the open market. The government should just buy this land instead of forcing people off who dont want to sell.

Unfortunately this is Africa and the African mentality is likely to continue.

[Walter Sobchak]

WE are all black, and white. FFS we all have African ancestry.

I have no idea what this means. I alluded to Mandela and his followers singing songs about killing whites (is that a better description?). The security minister was basically saying that if people didn't like getting killed, they could leave. I think that the killers somehow miss your subtle nuance that lets everyone be a homogeneous, colorless race.

[THESPEAR]

The land reform programme is being done completely wrong. There is no need to expropriate land or force farmers off their land. At any given time there are hundreds of thousands of hectares of farm land for sale on the open market. The government should just buy this land instead of forcing people off who dont want to sell.

Unfortunately this is Africa and the African mentality is likely to continue.


What Africa mentality. getting back what belong to you is wrong thing? please explain to me if i misunderstood you?

As for the Farms. Those who don't want to sell those farms , they should simply take take them by force. But not in a Mugabe Style.

Those whites who willingly sell their farms should be able to buy them back.
Reason why i say that is because theya aquired those Farms illegally.

[Rudolph]

What Africa mentality. getting back what belong to you is wrong thing? please explain to me if i misunderstood you?

As for the Farms. Those who don't want to sell those farms , they should simply take take them by force. But not in a Mugabe Style.

Those whites who willingly sell their farms should be able to buy them back.
Reason why i say that is because theya aquired those Farms illegally.

You can't hold someone accountable for something their forefathers did. Where do you stop? Can we then deport the whole Zulu tribe as well, since they aren't native like the Xhosas? Where do you stop? And then at that, they didn't forcibly take the land, the government of the day did... Why don't the natives simply farm on their native areas? They have the highest grade farmland. I'll tell you why, because they have no farming skills beyond subsistence farming, and even I could pull that off.

[THESPEAR]

You can't hold someone accountable for something their forefathers did. Where do you stop? Can we then deport the whole Zulu tribe as well, since they aren't native like the Xhosas? Where do you stop? And then at that, they didn't forcibly take the land, the government of the day did... Why don't the natives simply farm on their native areas? They have the highest grade farmland. I'll tell you why, because they have no farming skills beyond subsistence farming, and even I could pull that off.


I agree with that ....i can' be held accountable for my forefathers' dIds.
But History shows us that's the way it goes.

As for the Zulus and the Xosas , i look at it differently...and here is how i look at it....Zulus and Xosas are both Black and again are both of Bantu Enthnic. They are cousins. It a family matter. It like Gaza strip belonged to the Egyptians but now it a Palestian area. Do anyone cares about that ? I don't think so. Look at Angola's Kabinda enclave. Was supposed to belong to DRC , but does DRC gives a crap? no she doesn't.


Do you in you opinion think that European can let their Land be occupied by lets say , Orrientals or Blacks and let it go just because the occuaption of the land was done 250 years ago?..... I support the Land reform ( Willing Buyers and willing sellers) Not simply take away the Farms. But if they refuse the willing and willing sellers then i support the farms be confiscated.

Forgive my English Writing , I'm a French speaker.

[sepheronx]

Just to bring a point. In school, we learned that the birth place of humanity lies in Africa and the Caspian sea. So we can be formerly known as Iraqis as well. We were born in the middle east and Africa. Vague, yes.

As for this, this is BS. If I was a white living in SA, I would also move. Move to Canada. Well, good thing I am already here. There was also a program on the discover about birth places of humanity. My bloodline apparently starts northern Iraq (and I am of Polish/Russian decedent).


I agree with that ....i can' be held accountable for my forefathers' dIds.
But History shows us that's the way it goes.

As for the Zulus and the Xosas , i look at it differently...and here is how i look at it....Zulus and Xosas are both Black and again are both of Bantu Enthnic. They are cousins. It a family matter. It like Gaza strip belonged to the Egyptians but now it a Palestian area. Do anyone cares about that ? I don't think so. Look at Angola's Kabinda enclave. Was supposed to belong to DRC , but does DRC gives a crap? no she doesn't.


Do you in you opinion think that European can let their Land be occupied by lets say , Orrientals or Blacks and let it go just because the occuaption of the land was done 250 years ago?..... I support the Land reform ( Willing Buyers and willing sellers) Not simply take away the Farms. But if they refuse the willing and willing sellers then i support the farms be confiscated.

Forgive my English Writing , I'm a French speaker.

So what? That can be said about any group or ethnic background that wants some sort of land back, just because our ancestors are from there. That is total BS. They lost the land long ago, times change. Here is something to think about. I am in Canada. I go visit my family in Manitoba every year, and every year I get a natives who come up to me and tell me to go back to my country. I look at them and say "Canada?". Because I was born on this land, thus, I am Canadian. Just like the whites in SA. If they where born on that land, that is their land, just as much as anyone of any other ethnic race that lives on that land as well. Just because some tribe fought for it 500 years ago, or sooner/longer, does not mean it is any longer their land. Just because my family was born in Ukraine or whatever, does not make it that I am Ukrainian. It is you and your generation that matters, not what happened 500 years ago. Most natives of Canada can't think like that, and neither do the blacks of SA.

[THESPEAR]

Just to bring a point. In school, we learned that the birth place of humanity lies in Africa and the Caspian sea. So we can be formerly known as Iraqis as well. We were born in the middle east and Africa. Vague, yes.

As for this, this is BS. If I was a white living in SA, I would also move. Move to Canada. Well, good thing I am already here. There was also a program on the discover about birth places of humanity. My bloodline apparently starts northern Iraq (and I am of Polish/Russian decedent).



So what? That can be said about any group or ethnic background that wants some sort of land back, just because our ancestors are from there. That is total BS. They lost the land long ago, times change. Here is something to think about. I am in Canada. I go visit my family in Manitoba every year, and every year I get a natives who come up to me and tell me to go back to my country. I look at them and say "Canada?". Because I was born on this land, thus, I am Canadian. Just like the whites in SA. If they where born on that land, that is their land, just as much as anyone of any other ethnic race that lives on that land as well. Just because some tribe fought for it 500 years ago, or sooner/longer, does not mean it is any longer their land. Just because my family was born in Ukraine or whatever, does not make it that I am Ukrainian. It is you and your generation that matters, not what happened 500 years ago. Most natives of Canada can't think like that, and neither do the blacks of SA.



See, please don't don't put wards in my mouth. ...Where do you see me saying that White South Africans should go back to Euorpe?....
The disucssion is about FARMS.... I say it again , White SA aquired the Farms they own by forcing Blacks into resevation (similar to the and to what Whites Americans did to Native Americans).

Whould you please tell me how Black South Africans Ended up without Farmlands? And for the record ....Black SA ( Bantu Enthinic are Famrmers than they are caw rasers).

[THESPEAR]

[quote=sepheronx;3942192]Just to bring a point. In school, we learned that the birth place of humanity lies in Africa and the Caspian sea. So we can be formerly known as Iraqis as well. We were born in the middle east and Africa. Vague, yes.

As for this, this is BS. If I was a white living in SA, I would also move. Move to Canada. Well, good thing I am already here. There was also a program on the discover about birth places of humanity. My bloodline apparently starts northern Iraq (and I am of Polish/Russian decedent).



Did you forget what the subject of the discussion is?

[Walter Sobchak]

I agree with that ....i can' be held accountable for my forefathers' dIds. But History shows us that's the way it goes.

I support the Land reform ( Willing Buyers and willing sellers) Not simply take away the Farms. But if they refuse the willing and willing sellers then i support the farms be confiscated.

Forgive my English Writing , I'm a French speaker.

You are talking out both sides of your mouth!

So, what you are saying is that you don't like the "Mugabe style", where they just take the land. Your first option is to have the "seller" agree to "sell" the land. But if the "seller" (the farmer) doesn't want to sell it, then you are for confiscating the land? Hell, that IS the "Mugabe style".

That's ridiculous.

[drevil5000]

See, please don't don't put wards in my mouth. ...Where do you see me saying that White South Africans should go back to Euorpe?....
The disucssion is about FARMS.... I say it again , White SA aquired the Farms they own by forcing Blacks into resevation (similar to the and to what Whites Americans did to Native Americans).

Whould you please tell me how Black South Africans Ended up without Farmlands? And for the record ....Black SA ( Bantu Enthinic are Famrmers than they are caw rasers).

Actually most of south africa was not inhabited when settlers arrived.

[THESPEAR]

You are talking out both sides of your mouth!

So, what you are saying is that you don't like the "Mugabe style", where they just take the land. Your first option is to have the "seller" agree to "sell" the land. But if the "seller" (the farmer) doesn't want to sell it, then you are for confiscating the land? Hell, that IS the "Mugabe style".

That's ridiculous.


Oh yea...both side of my mouth? ....Mugabe gave the Farms to the people who can't don't know how to farm...Army officers, senior Police officers , ministers , Friends , and other loyolists and that was very dumb...he just gave away the farms for the sake of it , to win supprt among the powerfull.....but he would have given it to the ordinary people who know how to use the Land. and those people exist , they are just not powerfull.
I don't regret Mugabe Farms , even though they were badly exsecuted. And it was wrong they way it was handled.


And yes they should confiscate the Farms if the Farmers refuse to sell the Farms. And South africa already learned from Zimbabwe. No way they are going to make the mistakes that made Zimabbwe a Zombie country.

[DS73]

Do you in you opinion think that European can let their Land be occupied by lets say , Orrientals or Blacks and let it go just because the occuaption of the land was done 250 years ago?.....
Bosnia is a good example.

[THESPEAR]

Actually most of south africa was not inhabited when settlers arrived.


The Nguni people ( Zulus, Xhosas, Sothos , Swazis , Ndebele all Bnatu Enthnic tribes) arrived in South Africa 700 years before the Europeans arrived. and the great Zimbabwe , DR Congo KATANGA province , Zambia is where the Nguni people origineted.

How did Zulus came in Contact with the Boers and British?
How did the Boers and Brits met the Xhosas?
How and why did the Brits angage in fight with THE Zulus?

I wouldn't mind to learn the side of your history about South africa.

[THESPEAR]

Bosnia is a good example.


Would you be specific about your statement? you don't who are the orientals? or it's my mistakes. because Arabs are classified as caucasians. unless i'm blind or ignorant.

I will just assume you know who are the blacks.

And to this day doesn't the Orientals occupieds Bosnia?

[drevil5000]

And yes they should confiscate the Farms if the Farmers refuse to sell the Farms.

So if your government wanted to confiscate your house and give it to someone else, you would be happy with that?

[drevil5000]

The Nguni people ( Zulus, Xhosas, Sothos , Swazis , Ndebele all Bnatu Enthnic tribes) arrived in South Africa 700 years before the Europeans arrived. and the great Zimbabwe , DR Congo KATANGA province , Zambia is where the Nguni people origineted.

How did Zulus came in Contact with the Boers and British?
How did the Boers and Brits met the Xhosas?
How and why did the Brits angage in fight with THE Zulus?

I wouldn't mind to learn the side of your history about South africa.

Most fighting between the settlers and the tribes took place in the 1800's, about 200 years after settlers arrived. Dutch (Afrikaans) settlers were heading north to escape british rule. Many parts of the country had no africans.

You need to consider how things were in those times. The tribes were constantly killing each other, taking each others cattle and land. The settlers were more powerful and dominated them. This was normal for the times. You cant impose modern day laws and demand that the present population pay for what some other people did hundreds of years ago.

[R/cst]

The Nguni people ( Zulus, Xhosas, Sothos , Swazis , Ndebele all Bnatu Enthnic tribes) arrived in South Africa 700 years before the Europeans arrived. and the great Zimbabwe , DR Congo KATANGA province , Zambia is where the Nguni people origineted.

How did Zulus came in Contact with the Boers and British?
How did the Boers and Brits met the Xhosas?
How and why did the Brits angage in fight with THE Zulus?

I wouldn't mind to learn the side of your history about South africa.

Dude you need to read up on African history.

At the same time that the European nation were exploring further south, African tribes were migrating south into Southern Africa.



By the time Great Zimbabwe had ceased being the capital of a large trading empire, Bantu peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_peoples) had completed their colonization of southern Africa, with only the western and northern areas of the Cape not dominated by them. Two main groups developed, the Nguni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguni) (Xhosa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xhosa), Zulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu), Swazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swazi)), who occupied the eastern coastal plains, and the Sotho-Tswana who lived on the interior plateau.
In the late 18th and early 19th century, two major events occurred. The Xhosa, the most southerly tribe, who had been gradually migrating south west, made the first tentative contact with the Dutch Trekboers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer) gradually trekking northeast from the Cape colony.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_migration


The only inhabitants of southern Africa at that time were the SAN.

The first instance of contact between the Xhosa and the settlers was in the region of the Fish River.




The Xhosa are part of the South African Nguni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguni) migration which slowly moved south from the region around the Great Lakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Great_Lakes). Xhosa peoples were well established by the time of the Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) arrival in the mid-1600s, and occupied much of eastern South Africa from the Fish River to land inhabited by Zulu-speakers south of the modern city of Durban[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xhosa#cite_note-everyculture.com-0#cite_note-everyculture.com-0).
Xhosa society was historically viewed as an open society because of its readiness to learn from, trade and interact with other societies. They interacted with the Khoi and the San, foraging and nomadic herding peoples from whose languages many of the features of the modern Xhosa language, including click consonants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_consonant), were borrowed.
The Xhosa and white settlers first encountered one another around Somerset East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_East) in the early 1700s. In the late 1700s Afrikaner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner) trekboers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trekboer) migrating outwards from Cape Town came into conflict with Xhosa pastoralists around the Great Fish River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fish_River) region of the Eastern Cape. Following more than 20 years of intermittent conflict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Frontier_Wars), from 1811 to 1812 the Xhosas were forced east by British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire) colonial forces in the Third Frontier War (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Third_Frontier_War&action=edit&redlink=1).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xhosa#History

[Mikhael]

What Africa mentality. getting back what belong to you is wrong thing? please explain to me if i misunderstood you?

As for the Farms. Those who don't want to sell those farms , they should simply take take them by force. But not in a Mugabe Style.

Those whites who willingly sell their farms should be able to buy them back.
Reason why i say that is because theya aquired those Farms illegally.

You are contradicting yourself in everything you write. Go cry to Algerians,Moroccans.Tunesians or Egyptians to give back land to the black people becouse africa is only black continent yes ???
Go read history books about south africa first ok??


You are just a troll ...

[wilhelm]

The Nguni people ( Zulus, Xhosas, Sothos , Swazis , Ndebele all Bnatu Enthnic tribes) arrived in South Africa 700 years before the Europeans arrived. and the great Zimbabwe , DR Congo KATANGA province , Zambia is where the Nguni people origineted.

How did Zulus came in Contact with the Boers and British?
How did the Boers and Brits met the Xhosas?
How and why did the Brits angage in fight with THE Zulus?

I wouldn't mind to learn the side of your history about South africa.

And who were there before the Nguni?

The San, or bushman were the possessors of Southern Africa for millennia.

The Northern and Western part of Southern Africa were not settled by the Nguni when the Europeans arrived. The European settlers and slightly longer encumbered Bantu (Nguni) settlers met along the Fish River, much further East. This also led to the frontier Wars eventually.

The Bushman or San, ranged over the land as hunter gatherers loooong before the Nguni (Bantu) arrived.

So I guess you are all for confiscating black farms to give back to the pitifully few and mistreated temnants of these San peoples, the original inhabitants?

Easy, isn't it?p-)

[THESPEAR]

And who were there before the Nguni?

The San, or bushman were the possessors of Southern Africa for millennia.

The Northern and Western part of Southern Africa were not settled by the Nguni when the Europeans arrived. The European settlers and slightly longer encumbered Bantu (Nguni) settlers met along the Fish River, much further East. This also led to the frontier Wars eventually.

The Bushman or San, ranged over the land as hunter gatherers loooong before the Nguni (Bantu) arrived.

So I guess you are all for confiscating black farms to give back to the pitifully few and mistreated temnants of these San peoples, the original inhabitants?

Easy, isn't it?p-)


The Bantu lived peacefull with the Bushmen , and they were peacefull because toward each other because the Bushmen were hunters and the Bantu were mostly farmers. There were no ethnic cleansing , (though there were some wars.).

Western South africa was sparely populated by the Bantu and the Bushmen who lived mostly peaceful. Until the Europeans arrived and fall in love with the land and then started to expand North and Eastward.


As for the Farms , why did the then Aparthied Governemnt led by F. De Klark agreed to Land reform by the new Givernment if they consided and believed the Land to theirs legally? Something is wrong.

Why would i agree to such a comprise that will take away what i believe to be mine?

[Rudolph]

The Bantu lived peacefull with the Bushmen , and they were peacefull because toward each other because the Bushmen were hunters and the Bantu were mostly farmers. There were no ethnic cleansing , (though there were some wars.).

Western South africa was sparely populated by the Bantu and the Bushmen who lived mostly peaceful. Until the Europeans arrived and fall in love with the land and then started to expand North and Eastward.


As for the Farms , why did the then Aparthied Governemnt led by F. De Klark agreed to Land reform by the new Givernment if they consided and believed the Land to theirs legally? Something is wrong.

Why would i agree to such a comprise that will take away what i believe to be mine?

That's not the right question to ask. Ask why surrender any kind of power at all? It had nothing to do with who's right/wrong. I believe some land must be handed over, but that those receiving the land must serve an internhip with the white farmers. And that the white farmers must either get a huge pension for retiring their lease on farmland, or a market-related price, because without transferring the skills, food shortages are bound to occur.

If you read the articles I've posted it's clear that very little of the land currently transferred to black South Africans lead to even similar levels of output - meaning, we are moving backwards. It has nothing to do with how the farms are handed over, whether they are seized or bought, you need to teach the black citizens for years in advance before allowing them some ancestral plot. I don't think ancient Africa had individual farms in any case, that does not sit well with their collective system of farming.

What about the enormous lands in the Western Cape, was that not settled and cultured by the whites? Was much of the land not taken after the Voortrekkers saw the devestation left by the Zulus?

[R/cst]

The Bantu lived peacefull with the Bushmen , and they were peacefull because toward each other because the Bushmen were hunters and the Bantu were mostly farmers. There were no ethnic cleansing , (though there were some wars.).

Western South africa was sparely populated by the Bantu and the Bushmen who lived mostly peaceful. Until the Europeans arrived and fall in love with the land and then started to expand North and Eastward.


As for the Farms , why did the then Aparthied Governemnt led by F. De Klark agreed to Land reform by the new Givernment if they consided and believed the Land to theirs legally? Something is wrong.

Why would i agree to such a comprise that will take away what i believe to be mine?

There were conflicts between the Bantu and the bushman, the end result been that the SAN were absorbed by the Bantu.

The land reform was intended to address inequality through the willing buyer willing seller system.

There was nothing wrong with that, however the government has failed to provide the land claimants with the skill that they require to run a sustainable farm in the 21st centaury.

You seem to be trying to paint the Bantu people as peacefully people who could do no wrong that is utter nonsense they are the same as everyone else.

What happened in Africa has happened all around the world at one time or another. The strong replace the weak, I am not saying it is right but that’s how it is.

If you want examples look to the following
The Roman Empire
The Mongol Empire
The Aztec empire
The Zulu Empire



Later Dingiswayo was murdered by Zwide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwide), a powerful chief of the Ndwandwe (Nxumalo) clan. Shaka took it upon himself to avenge Dingiswayo's blood. At some point Zwide barely escaped Shaka, though the exact details are not known. In that encounter Zwide's mother, a Sangoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangoma) (Zulu seer or shaman) was killed by Shaka. Shaka chose a particularly gruesome revenge on Zwide's mother, locking her in a house and placing jackals or hyenas inside. They devoured her and, in the morning, Shaka burned the house to the ground. Despite carrying out this revenge, Shaka was still eager to kill Zwide. It was not until around 1825 that the two great military men would meet, near Phongola, in what would be their final meeting. Phongola is near the present day border of KwaZulu-Natal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KwaZulu-Natal), a province in South Africa. The victory went to Shaka who, however, sustained heavy casualties and lost his head military commander, Umgobhozi Ovela Entabeni.

Shaka's general Soshangane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soshangane) (of the Shangaan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangaan)) moved north towards what is now Mozambique to inflict further damage on less resistant foes and take advantage of slaving opportunities, obliging Portuguese traders to give tribute. Shaka later had to contend again with Zwide's son Sikhunyane (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sikhunyane&action=edit&redlink=1) in 1826
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaka_Zulu


All these empires were written in blood of their enemies

[DS73]

Would you be specific about your statement? you don't who are the orientals? or it's my mistakes. because Arabs are classified as caucasians. unless i'm blind or ignorant.

I will just assume you know who are the blacks.

And to this day doesn't the Orientals occupieds Bosnia?

Sorry I didn't know that I address a racist.
Bye

[Mikhael]

Dont know why you are arguing with this nut. He only rants "africa only for blacks" and "white people are devils and all must pay" u gave him facts but its like hitting a wall with your head.Nothing will change his point of view.

BTW something for u thespear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rd_V2PVZbA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MFOXinbdFg&feature=related


And the really sad fact is its going to S.Africa ...

[Walter Sobchak]

Would you be specific about your statement? you don't who are the orientals? or it's my mistakes. because Arabs are classified as caucasians.

I will just assume you know who are the blacks.

And to this day doesn't the Orientals occupieds Bosnia?

Reggie White? Are you channeling Reggie White?


unless i'm blind or ignorant

Would you be offended if I guessed "both"?

[THESPEAR]

Sorry I didn't know that I address a racist.
Bye


I don't think you made a racist comment at all.

[THESPEAR]

That's not the right question to ask. Ask why surrender any kind of power at all? It had nothing to do with who's right/wrong. I believe some land must be handed over, but that those receiving the land must serve an internhip with the white farmers. And that the white farmers must either get a huge pension for retiring their lease on farmland, or a market-related price, because without transferring the skills, food shortages are bound to occur.

If you read the articles I've posted it's clear that very little of the land currently transferred to black South Africans lead to even similar levels of output - meaning, we are moving backwards. It has nothing to do with how the farms are handed over, whether they are seized or bought, you need to teach the black citizens for years in advance before allowing them some ancestral plot. I don't think ancient Africa had individual farms in any case, that does not sit well with their collective system of farming.

What about the enormous lands in the Western Cape, was that not settled and cultured by the whites? Was much of the land not taken after the Voortrekkers saw the devestation left by the Zulus?


Why don't you want to answer my question? but it's ok if you don't want to answer it....but don't say that it's the wrong question to ask.

The pension is absolutly not needed.


What do you mean that ancient africans didn't have individual farms is any case?
If they didn't have induvidual farms , what kind of farm that existed at time?

[R/cst]

Why don't you want to answer my question? but it's ok if you don't want to answer it....but don't say that it's the wrong question to ask.

The pension is absolutly not needed.

What do you mean that ancient africans didn't have individual farms is any case?
If they didn't have induvidual farms , what kind of farm that existed at time?

Why should these farmers not be compensated for the loss of farms that they have built from the ground up. I many cases these farms have been in the family for generations and there were never any indigenous people on the land to start with.

Ancient africans mainly raised cattle and planted a few crops around their kraals

Here is a link that may help you

Xhosa History and Society
http://www.rhi.org.za/index.php?ref=articles&do=rd&artid=5

Zulu History
http://www.warthog.co.za/dedt/tourism/culture/history/early.htm



Just a quick question for you.

As a white male from South Africa where should I go?

I cannot claim any specific European country as my homeland; my culture is uniquely South African.

My ancestors started arriving in South Africa about the same time that the Bantu migration reached the eastern part of Southern Africa.

My heritage is one huge mixture with all of the following in there somewhere, plus a few more that I probably don’t know off
- British
- Irish
- Scottish
- French Huguenot
- Dutch
- Portuguese
- Boer
- Greek
- Spanish

South Africa is my homeland I was born and bred here and I will die here.

[wilhelm]

The Bantu lived peacefull with the Bushmen , and they were peacefull because toward each other because the Bushmen were hunters and the Bantu were mostly farmers. There were no ethnic cleansing , (though there were some wars.).



Bon Jour Spear.

I'm afraid you are very wrong on this. The Nguni (Bantu), just like the Europeans, were pastoralists. They were farmers who had crops, but more importantly they practiced animal husbandry, just like the Europeans.

The San (Bushman) practiced nothing like it. In fact, the whole concept of private ownership, and particularly animal husbandry, was completely foreign to them. Thus, animal herds were easy pickings to feed their clans or social groups. Domestic cattle herds, as kept by black Africans and white Africans(p-)) were very, very easy to "hunt". Much easier than carefully tracking and stalking a wild buck over the course of an entire day with an uncertain result still possible. The fact that these domestic animals "belonged" to someone simply did not even occur to them, as husbandry was a foreign(p-)) concept to them. They were classic hunter/gatherers.

This led to conflict with the slowly migrating black tribes from the north, and then the Europeans from the south. Both the latter groups regarded the Bushman as a pest who literally stole their wealth (ie cattle).

The Bushman was thus reduced by encroaching black and white settlers, both by conflict and being pushed off their traditional land. It fits the classic definition of ethnic cleansing.

The San (bushman) paintings are there for all to see all over South Africa, and are a rich and interesting description into the past. It tells their story almost as well as their campfire oral traditions. I think you'd find them quite interesting, especially in view of your quoted post above.

So, once again, I assume you are all for the eventual redistribution, even if unwilling, of farmlands, black farmlands inclusive, back to the original inhabitants, the San? Even if there were no farms there to begin with? They are the true inhabitants and were here for millennia.

Which brings me to my next point. Where are the legal codex'es stating which individual or family owned what? Or was the entire landholding held by the chief (eg Shaka) and simply apportioned temporarily? This is fundamental stuff.

See how complicated this entire saga can become?

[THESPEAR]

Why should these farmers not be compensated for the loss of farms that they have built from the ground up. I many cases these farms have been in the family for generations and there were never any indigenous people on the land to start with.

Ancient africans mainly raised cattle and planted a few crops around their kraals

Here is a link that may help you

Xhosa History and Society
http://www.rhi.org.za/index.php?ref=articles&do=rd&artid=5

Zulu History
http://www.warthog.co.za/dedt/tourism/culture/history/early.htm





Saying that Bantu started arriving in the Eastern cost at the same time as Whites were arriving in the western cost area is the wrong . and it a make up story . Bantu ( Nguni) arrived more than 500 years before the Europeans .



How did Bantu ended up landess? No one so far is able to answer that question so far.

As for you being a South african patriot or nationalist , i respect you and other whites for that. and believe it or not , I didn't believe that whites should go back to Europe. They are the sons of South Africa as Bantu are.

I know whites love SA as much as Bantu. My hat of to them.

[sepheronx]

I wanted some opinions and started to ask just the local people at work (a lot of them are from SA and plenty other nations). I asked a couple of friends who came from SA and Somalia (they are black of course) and I asked them, if the land you where born on, you would be addressed by the name of the land, correct (in this case, born in South Africa, being white, black or whatever, are called South African)? All the replies I got are: "yeah, it does not matter what race you are or what culture you are. If you are born in South Africa, you are Afrikaan." They come from these countries, they come from areas with conflict, and they are not biased. Why is it only those who are safe at home, in LA, in Detroit, in various other cities, states and provinces that think they have a say in all of this, even if they are just American, Canadian, British, etc?

Also, if the blacks want their farming land back, then go find some unused land, buy it from the government, and start creating your own farm. Stop trying to use farm land that is not yours, but someone else's. I don't see how taking farm land by either force without pay or force with pay and then giving it to someone else (who cannot farm properly), is a way of balancing out powers or creating equality.

[Dinges]

I wanted some opinions and started to ask just the local people at work (a lot of them are from SA and plenty other nations). I asked a couple of friends who came from SA and Somalia (they are black of course) and I asked them, if the land you where born on, you would be addressed by the name of the land, correct (in this case, born in South Africa, being white, black or whatever, are called South African)? All the replies I got are: "yeah, it does not matter what race you are or what culture you are. If you are born in South Africa, you are Afrikaan." They come from these countries, they come from areas with conflict, and they are not biased. Why is it only those who are safe at home, in LA, in Detroit, in various other cities, states and provinces that think they have a say in all of this, even if they are just American, Canadian, British, etc?

Also, if the blacks want their farming land back, then go find some unused land, buy it from the government, and start creating your own farm. Stop trying to use farm land that is not yours, but someone else's. I don't see how taking farm land by either force without pay or force with pay and then giving it to someone else (who cannot farm properly), is a way of balancing out powers or creating equality.

It is unfortunately not that simple. The redistribution of wealth in SA at the moment also carry a shedfull of baggage. Political for that matter. And the argument about who was here first is moot. We are here , and that is it.

You can go on and on about this age and that colour and them tribes ad infinitum.Actually ad nauseum. No-one will win the debate.

What you see here is not only political payback , but even more insidious over-correction. The fact that Apartheid had too go was fundamental seeing it was a total malign concept. But to the victor goes the spoils.

Even if this over-correction has the potential to be catastrophic , it was inevitable. Us whites thinking that we would walk out the other end with all our previous wealth and privilege was just plain daft.

[Walter Sobchak]

Maybe I should look at my ethnicity and demand land reparations based on that. Let's seeeeeee.... I can get land my Cherokee ancestors had stolen in the Carolinas. Then, there is probably land in Ireland... definitely in Scotland... probably in Wales... certainly in Germany... for sure in Georgia (the state) where the Yankees burned 'em out and carpetbaggers stole their land ('course we'd of never come to Texas if that hadn't happened).

Where's my land and reparations????

[THESPEAR]

Maybe I should look at my ethnicity and demand land reparations based on that. Let's seeeeeee.... I can get land my Cherokee ancestors had stolen in the Carolinas. Then, there is probably land in Ireland... definitely in Scotland... probably in Wales... certainly in Germany... for sure in Georgia (the state) where the Yankees burned 'em out and carpetbaggers stole their land ('course we'd of never come to Texas if that hadn't happened).

Where's my land and reparations????


If you need your land and reparations go fight for it. that all i can tell you. However you want to do it.

You are neither Bantu( Black South african) nor White South African. That leaves you out of discusion , You wouldn't understand. I mean no harm.

[Dinges]

If you need your land and reparations go fight for it. that all i can tell you. However you want to do it.

You are neither Bantu( Black South african) nor White South African. That leaves you out of discusion , You wouldn't understand. I mean no harm.


Not to be anal. But you are neither.

[THESPEAR]

Not to be anal. But you are neither.
What makes you think i'm neither?

[R/cst]

Just a heads up

Most black south africans do not consider themselves Bantu, tribal identification is very strong and they are quick to point out any mistakes.

For example
Calling a Zulu person a Xhosa is a big no no, to this day they dont really get on.

[THESPEAR]

Just a heads up

Most black south africans do not consider themselves Bantu, tribal identification is very strong and they are quick to point out any mistakes.

For example
Calling a Zulu person a Xhosa is a big no no, to this day they dont really get on.


Who are considered a Bantu?

Aparthied Gov. may have demonized the mining of "Bantu" , but the fact is Zulus and Xhosas are both from Bantu Ethnic. The Ethinc Bantu stretches from Durban , Port Elisabeth to Duala Cameroun to Dar-Es- Salam to Angola.

It's like a Belarusians saying " We not Slavs but a Belarussian". They may not like the name b'cause they of the treatment they recieved form Aparthied Gov. but that's the reality. Tribal adentity of course is that strong in every Bantu country. But that's the Facts.

[R/cst]

Saying that Bantu started arriving in the Eastern cost at the same time as Whites were arriving in the western cost area is the wrong . and it a make up story . Bantu ( Nguni) arrived more than 500 years before the Europeans .



How did Bantu ended up landess? No one so far is able to answer that question so far.

As for you being a South african patriot or nationalist , i respect you and other whites for that. and believe it or not , I didn't believe that whites should go back to Europe. They are the sons of South Africa as Bantu are.

I know whites love SA as much as Bantu. My hat of to them.

Why do you believe that it’s a made up story?

We are referring to South Africa not the countries above it.

The fact that they started arriving at around that time is an historical fact confirmed by archeologists

As for the time that Europeans arrived



The written history of Cape Colony South Africa (later known as Cape Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Province)) began when Bartolomeu Dias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeu_Dias), a Portuguese navigator, discovered the Cape of Good Hope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_of_Good_Hope) in 1488
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cape_Colony

[R/cst]

As for how they ended up landless

There are plenty of reasons
- Land sold to settlers by their chiefs
- Unnoccupied land settled by newcomers
- Warefare and tribal strife
- Disease
-Trickery

You must also rember that the land wasnt owned by the people, the Chiefs owned it and the people used it at their pleasure, piss off the Chief and you lose your bit of land.

As for the SAN they didnt really consider themselves the owners of the land at least not how we would consider ourselves the owners.

With regards to the land issue what do you think should happen?

[Dinges]

What makes you think i'm neither?


Originally Posted by THESPEAR http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3948842#post3948842)
If you need your land and reparations go fight for it. that all i can tell you. However you want to do it.

You are neither Bantu( Black South african) nor White South African. That leaves you out of discusion , You wouldn't understand. I mean no harm.


You are French speaker from the DRC as of your own admission.

[R/cst]

Who are considered a Bantu?

Aparthied Gov. may have demonized the mining of "Bantu" , but the fact is Zulus and Xhosas are both from Bantu Ethnic. The Ethinc Bantu stretches from Durban , Port Elisabeth to Duala Cameroun to Dar-Es- Salam to Angola.

It's like a Belarusians saying " We not Slavs but a Belarussian". They may not like the name b'cause they of the treatment they recieved form Aparthied Gov. but that's the reality. Tribal adentity of course is that strong in every Bantu country. But that's the Facts.

The apartheid government had nothing to do with that, tribal identity was very strong in the past and continues so today.

The Zulus are a warrior race and tend to regard all other groups as inferior; they typically call the Xhosa’s cattle thieves.

The apartheid government may have supported one group over another but all they were doing was using preexisting tribal conflicts for their own purposes.

If your statement were true then all immigrants would be accepted with open arms instead of been met with petrol bombs

[THESPEAR]

As for how they ended up landless

There are plenty of reasons
- Land sold to settlers by their chiefs
- Unnoccupied land settled by newcomers
- Warefare and tribal strife
- Disease
-Trickery

You must also rember that the land wasnt owned by the people, the Chiefs owned it and the people used it at their pleasure, piss off the Chief and you lose your bit of land.

As for the SAN they didnt really consider themselves the owners of the land at least not how we would consider ourselves the owners.

With regards to the land issue what do you think should happen?


I do respect your views.

As for the land , they should be redistribute ( willing seller , willing buyer). Though. i don't want the land to be given to people who can't use it. It doesn'y make any sense either to have an induvidual ( wether they are white or black) to own thousands of acres and they are millions of landless people in townships in (super poverty).
Don't forget that Black were quiked of the fertile land and were put into American style , so called homeland reservations. I wonder how those millions of Xhosas , Zulus , Sothos and many others survived for all that long? by hunting (mostly)? strange to me. Not a induviduals should own hundreds of lands. I preffer the Cote dIvoire , Malawi , Tanzanian styles . Not a small bunch of elite people owning the entire country.

[THESPEAR]

You are French speaker from the DRC as of your own admission.


Yes i do speack French as it's the Official Language of DRC.

Nationality -Congolese.
Ethnic - Bantu.
Race -Black.

As DRC is over 90% Bantu Ethnically
As for South African Blacks are all Bantu , except for Bushman, SAN.

[Dinges]

Yes i do speack French as it's the Official Language of DRC.

Nationality -Congolese.
Ethnic - Bantu.
Race -Black.

As DRC is over 90% Bantu Ethnically
As for South African Blacks are all Bantu , except for Bushman, SAN.

I took that as a given. But what I was pointing or trying to point out that this is a public forum/thread and we can not tell somebody else that they can not give any input because they are not from Africa or South Africa.

It is after all exclusivity and insular behaviour that has been the cause of many of the problems of Africa.

[THESPEAR]

I took that as a given. But what I was pointing or trying to point out that this is a public forum/thread and we can not tell somebody else that they can not give any input because they are not from Africa or South Africa.

It is after all exclusivity and insular behaviour that has been the cause of many of the problems of Africa.
Just didn't prefer to angage in a discusion with that particular person. Though. I think i should have just been silent toward he/her.
I know the forum is a public place and anyone can and have the right .

I recognise my mistake.

[R/cst]

I do respect your views.

As for the land , they should be redistribute ( willing seller , willing buyer). Though. i don't want the land to be given to people who can't use it. It doesn'y make any sense either to have an induvidual ( wether they are white or black) to own thousands of acres and they are millions of landless people in townships in (super poverty).
Don't forget that Black were quiked of the fertile land and were put into American style , so called homeland reservations. I wonder how those millions of Xhosas , Zulus , Sothos and many others survived for all that long? by hunting (mostly)? strange to me. Not a induviduals should own hundreds of lands. I preffer the Cote dIvoire , Malawi , Tanzanian styles . Not a small bunch of elite people owning the entire country.

Here is a Wiki about the Bantustan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_Black_Homelands

The land there is actually quite beautiful and fertile although as a result of the past mal administration they remain among the poorest people in SA.
The current government hasn’t done much to improve their lot either.

The majority of farms in SA are commercial farms who feed our country; I don’t see the sense in dismantling these farms to give everybody a small plot to grow what they want for themselves.

Giving farms to people who will not be able to utilize them is a waste of time, another point is that the government has a huge amount of land that is under its direct control, maybe they should use some of it.

Plus the majority of the blacks in SA have no interest in going back to the farms; they all want to be doctors, lawyers, managers etc

Land will not make the poor rich unless they have the skills to develop it, this is where the government should step in, start academies to teach unemployed people a skill that will allow them to get an income.

There is a huge demand for builders, plumbers, carpenters, welders, electricians and other artisans. We need these more than we need marketing mangers and sports scientests.

[THESPEAR]

Here is a Wiki about the Bantustan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_Black_Homelands


The majority of farms in SA are commercial farms who feed our country; I don’t see the sense in dismantling these farms to give everybody a small plot to grow what they want for themselves.

Giving farms to people who will not be able to utilize them is a waste of time, another point is that the government has a huge amount of land that is under its direct control, maybe they should use some of it.

Plus the majority of the blacks in SA have no interest in going back to the farms; they all want to be doctors, lawyers, managers etc

Land will not make the poor rich unless they have the skills to develop it, this is where the government should step in, start academies to teach unemployed people a skill that will allow them to get an income.
.


I agree with you.

[DanteXavier]

Why do you believe that it’s a made up story?

We are referring to South Africa not the countries above it.

The fact that they started arriving at around that time is an historical fact confirmed by archeologists

As for the time that Europeans arrived



He's right, that story is made up and far from fact. Bantu arrived in Eastern SA well before whites hit land in the Cape.

Since we're using wikipedia as a source...


Pioneering groups had reached modern KwaZulu-Natal in South Africa by 300 A.D. along the coast, and the modern Limpopo Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpopo_Province) (formerly Northern Transvaal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvaal)) by 500 A.D.

Archaeological study done at old settlements and on artificats confirms this. That's a about 1000 years of difference there.

[Rudolph]

Farms collapse as land reform fails (http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=949230)
Bongani Mthethwa
Published:Feb 28, 2009

SA becomes net importer of food as vast tracts of land lie fallow.


South Africa’s food security is threatened by its chaotic rural land reform programme.

Thousands of once-productive farms, mainly in KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape, lie abandoned and are causing serious shortages of staple foods.

The country now imports more food than it exports and local production of grain, fruit and vegetables can no longer keep pace with the growing population.

Uncertainty about South Africa’s land reform process — the authorities recently extended for the fourth time their deadline to finalise claims — has seen scores of commercial farmers stopping all investments in their properties. Others are leaving for more stable pastures, with many opting for Mozambique’s subtropical fruit and grain industry or stock farming in Botswana.

Although there have been success stories in land restitution, the process aimed to improve livelihoods has left scores of communities divided and in debt.

A private company appointed by the government as a strategic partner to provide management expertise for newly acquired restitution farms in Limpopo and Mpumalanga has collapsed, leaving beneficiaries owing millions in unpaid debt.

This week, the Land Claims Commission said an audit of the struggling projects has been concluded, but failed to provide specifics. But it did say the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs would take the lead in the implementation of a “revival strategy”.

The new Land and Agrarian Reform Programme promises to put together support packages, employ project managers, engage strategic partners and landowners, procure investment and redesign farming operations.

On a two-week visit to farms around the country, the Sunday Times discovered that:


Twenty top crop and dairy farms in the Eastern Cape, bought for R11.6-million and returned to a Kokstad community, are now informal settlements;


A once-thriving potato farm in the KwaZulu-Natal Midlands is now a makeshift soccer field;


Ten thousand people given back 8000ha of prime fruit and macadamia farms in Limpopo are crippled by R5-million debt;


A former multimillion-rand tea estate in Magoebaskloof in Limpopo has become an overgrown forest;


More than five tons of a macadamia nut crop on a reclaimed Limpopo farm was so poor that it was dumped into the Levubu river; and


A R22-million irrigation system built by the government to supply water to new farmers in KwaZulu-Natal lies unused.

A lack of post-settlement support, with almost no monitoring and evaluation on the ground, are cited as the main reasons for the crisis.

Ann Bernstein, executive director of the Centre for Development and Enterprise, a policy think-tank, said its research had shown that the economic viability of many rural regions was under serious threat. Some beneficiaries had no interest in farming but just wanted a secure place to stay, she said.

“The issue is that at least 50% of land reform projects have failed, and that means for many of the people involved their circumstances have not improved — and for some, have even got worse. And all this is happening in the midst of a rise in food prices,” Bernstein said.

AgriSA deputy president Dr Theo de Jager said the organisation was extremely concerned about collapsing farms.


He said “too many decision-makers” in each claimant community had made it difficult for commercial farmers to enter into agreed joint partnership ventures or mentoring programmes.

Andre Jooste, a senior manager at the National Agricultural Marketing Council, said they had seen a “relatively big increase” in the demand for food in the country. “The main concern with national food security is the fact that, since the early ’90s, the population has grown by 32% while overall agricultural production has only grown by 10%,” Jooste said.

“I think the failures we see in land reform was an opportunity missed to increase food supply in the country. Production has not kept up with population increases and that should be a serious concern to all role players.”

Food prices increased when there was restricted supply and big demand.

Professor Ben Cousins, director of the Programme for Land and Agrarian Studies at the University of the Western Cape, said the land reform process had not succeeded in improving people’s livelihoods.

“We’ve been measuring success in the wrong way by putting emphasis on speed in terms of meeting deadlines, which is counterproductive,” he said.

Despite a co-ordinated revival plan, acting chief land claims commissioner Andrew Mphela said it was too early to measure performance or to talk of failure. He said that contrary to “popular rhetoric and biased reporting from certain quarters”, projects did not collapse but instead experienced “challenges”.

Mphela said most claims were only at an initial planning stage as far as post-settlement support was concerned.

He said the government’s policy envisaged a 10-year period for implementation after claims had been concluded.


Mphela described the Centre for Development and Enterprise as “self-proclaimed experts” whose claims were “baseless”, “frivolous” and “vexatious, if not outright mischievous”.

He said land reform was not a simple process. “There is a human development dimension to it. There is a cultural dimension to it, which is about constructing the human spirit which was destroyed over decades.

“It is precisely this culture of labour that was destroyed by apartheid in our people. In fact, it made them hate labour in all its forms because for them it was not voluntary. This aspect of land reform and restructuring of dignity is never understood.”

[Rudolph]

DG: Govt should protect farmers (http://www.fin24.com/articles/default/display_article.aspx?Nav=ns&ArticleID=1518-1786_2477517)
Mar 01 2009

Cape Town - In a strong hint that government is changing tack on support for the agricultural industry, Thozi Gwanya, director-general of Land Affairs, took a swipe at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) and said "we must be bold and protect our farmers".

Gwayna were outspoken on the WTO in an interview with Farming SA.

"Today we (government) have succumbed to the wishes and rules of the WTO. They prescribe to us not to support our farmers and we did so, while Europe and America continue to subsidise their farmers."

"All I am saying is that we must be bold and protect our farmers. Malawi went back to the WTO and World Bank and said there is 'no way we are not going to support our farmers', and today they have doubled their production output. We cannot stand by while our farmers are struggling."

Gwanya also said the different white and black agricultural unions in South Africa should form one united farming organisation, similar to Business Unity SA (Busa).

The three big agricultural organisations, Nafu, Agri SA en Transvaal Agricutural Union SA, should swallow their pride, forget about history and get on with the business of agriculture.


- Landbou.com

[playtym]

Farms collapse as land reform fails (http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=949230)
Bongani Mthethwa
Published:Feb 28, 2009

SA becomes net importer of food as vast tracts of land lie fallow.


South Africa’s food security is threatened by its chaotic rural land reform programme.

Thousands of once-productive farms, mainly in KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape, lie abandoned and are causing serious shortages of staple foods.


Um..... I told you so.


Oh no, I didn't just go there, did I?!? p-)

[R/cst]

He's right, that story is made up and far from fact. Bantu arrived in Eastern SA well before whites hit land in the Cape.

Since we're using wikipedia as a source...



Archaeological study done at old settlements and on artificats confirms this. That's a about 1000 years of difference there.

I see you havent been following the discussion, we were discussing the lower part of SA ie KwaZulu Natal, eastern Cape and the Cape.

The bantu tribe were moving down from central Africa and into Kwazulu Natal at around the same time that the first European explorers landed at the Cape.

I stay in Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape, the only people here before the settlers were the SAN, the Bantu (Xhosa) were on the other side of the fish river

[paluka]

Well, I suppose that they will remain historically tribal as long as that historically present tribe is still there using it or living on it.
I suppose, then, that many whites who have been in SA for upwards of 4 centuries may be able to claim certain lands that have historically been in their families as theirs...

Historically tribal BS, that is all it is. If I am born in this country then I have just as much right as any to any land. If they could not stem the flow of European migrants then they have no right to complain today.

What then shall we call the land stolen from the Afrikaner that they legally bought from Dingaan before Piet Retief was murdered by Dingaan? Shall we call on the current government to appropriate that land back to the Afrikaner?

Why should anybody have to let go of land if they know it will be going to waste? Agriforum warned us two weeks ago that 50% of farms in SA is now unproductive due to lack of skills and resources. By 2013 SA will have a food security problem, statistically, if this continues. Why should we allow this? This is pure solid racism and nothing good can come from it. One day when nobody has food to eat because farms are not producing they will probably start to kill all the ex-white farmers and blame them for apartheid

[THESPEAR]

Historically tribal BS, that is all it is. If I am born in this country then I have just as much right as any to any land. If they could not stem the flow of European migrants then they have no right to complain today.

What then shall we call the land stolen from the Afrikaner that they legally bought from Dingaan before Piet Retief was murdered by Dingaan? Shall we call on the current government to appropriate that land back to the Afrikaner?

Why should anybody have to let go of land if they know it will be going to waste? Agriforum warned us two weeks ago that 50% of farms in SA is now unproductive due to lack of skills and resources. By 2013 SA will have a food security problem, statistically, if this continues. Why should we allow this? This is pure solid racism and nothing good can come from it. One day when nobody has food to eat because farms are not producing they will probably start to kill all the ex-white farmers and blame them for apartheid

Total crap, who is dingaan? Dingaan is a Zulus (Bantu ). How do you sell your land to your Enemy? Absolut crap. There was no deal between Dingaan and the Boers. Zulus never any deal with anyone to Sell their land.

[wilhelm]

Total crap, who is Dingaan?

Dingaan was the half brother of the famous chief Shaka. He murdered Shaka and became the King of the Zulu nation.

Historically, the Zulu's and Afrikaners had a relatively good understanding, the murder of Piet Retief and the Battle of Blood River notwithstanding.

There were land negotiations and land sales going on between the Afrikaaner and Zulu at the time.

[wilhelm]

Dingaan is a Zulus (Bantu ). How do you sell your land to your Enemy? Absolut crap. There was no deal between Dingaan and the Boers. Zulus never any deal with anyone to Sell their land.

Enemies?

Until that point they were not enemies.

History provides plenty of evidence of white people settling amongst the Zulus, whether they be farmers, traders, missionaries, or even the council to the chief! (go read up about the last one! Here's a clue .... John Dunn)

Special dispensation was used in some of these cases, as particularly the traders actually bought their land from the Zulu king. His subjects were unable to do the same.

History. Check up on it. It is actually quite fascinating.

[THESPEAR]

Dingaan was the half brother of the famous chief Shaka. He murdered Shaka and became the King of the Zulu nation.

Historically, the Zulu's and Afrikaners had a relatively good understanding, the murder of Piet Retief and the Battle of Blood River notwithstanding.

There were land negotiations and land sales going on between the Afrikaaner and Zulu at the time.


I know who is Dingaan , i was asking Paluka if he knew .

Thogh the Zulus and Afrikaanners had a good relationship and had a common enemy( The British) there is no way the Zulus would have sold their lands when they wanted to Expand their existing Lands. And it was the Brits and Afrikaaners who were in the way of the Zulus from expanding their lands. So i don't know were the sale of the lands between Dingaan and Afrikaaners comes from.
The history about the Europeans arriving in the Western cape at the sametime as the Bantu tribes were arring in the Eastern is a total lie ( Fabricated story).
The truth is teh Euros arrived when the Zulus were imposing the supremacy over other Bantu tribes.


And what about the of the vultrakers by the Dingaan Forces? Would you tell me about the side of your story.


There is no way the Zulus would have sold their lands when they were taking other Tribes land.

[THESPEAR]

Enemies?

Until that point they were not enemies.

History provides plenty of evidence of white people settling amongst the Zulus, whether they be farmers, traders, missionaries, or even the council to the chief! (go read up about the last one! Here's a clue .... John Dunn)

Special dispensation was used in some of these cases, as particularly the traders actually bought their land from the Zulu king. His subjects were unable to do the same.

History. Check up on it. It is actually quite fascinating.


I don't deny that they were Whites living among the Zulus , but there is no clues that whites were given lands as a compesation.
After all Dingaan was fighting the same whites he befriended.

[Dinges]

I don't deny that they were Whites living among the Zulus , but there is no clues that whites were given lands as a compesation.
After all Dingaan was fighting the same whites he befriended.


Here you go.

http://books.google.co.za/books?id=fGH67s67hagC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=zulu+trekboers+land&source=bl&ots=vKJukJ_wBB&sig=ihVRiXuUCCW5rfjWX3twqIYaxFQ&hl=en&ei=j_yrSaLBI4S6nQe6nJX5Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/people/special%20projects/albertina_sisulu/context/colonial_history/colonial_2.htm

a la Albertina Sisulu

[eugenlitwin]

Zimbabwe II.
+1, new its just matter of time

[paluka]

I know who is Dingaan , i was asking Paluka if he knew .

Thogh the Zulus and Afrikaanners had a good relationship and had a common enemy( The British) there is no way the Zulus would have sold their lands when they wanted to Expand their existing Lands. And it was the Brits and Afrikaaners who were in the way of the Zulus from expanding their lands. So i don't know were the sale of the lands between Dingaan and Afrikaaners comes from.
The history about the Europeans arriving in the Western cape at the sametime as the Bantu tribes were arring in the Eastern is a total lie ( Fabricated story).
The truth is teh Euros arrived when the Zulus were imposing the supremacy over other Bantu tribes.


And what about the of the vultrakers by the Dingaan Forces? Would you tell me about the side of your story.


There is no way the Zulus would have sold their lands when they were taking other Tribes land.
Are you ****ing kidding me? You agree with everything everyone else says about Dingaan, and then in the next sentence deny what you have just agreed upon to get at me?

Would I be talking of Dingaan if I don't know who he is? And get your history facts straight, Dingaan sold Piet Retief land and then murdered him. :bash:

[paluka]

I know who is Dingaan , i was asking Paluka if he knew .

Thogh the Zulus and Afrikaanners had a good relationship and had a common enemy( The British) there is no way the Zulus would have sold their lands when they wanted to Expand their existing Lands. And it was the Brits and Afrikaaners who were in the way of the Zulus from expanding their lands. So i don't know were the sale of the lands between Dingaan and Afrikaaners comes from.
The history about the Europeans arriving in the Western cape at the sametime as the Bantu tribes were arring in the Eastern is a total lie ( Fabricated story).
The truth is teh Euros arrived when the Zulus were imposing the supremacy over other Bantu tribes.


And what about the of the vultrakers by the Dingaan Forces? Would you tell me about the side of your story.


There is no way the Zulus would have sold their lands when they were taking other Tribes land.
Another thing, the British was not our enemy at the time, we just did not want to be ruled by them. There is no such thing as a common enemy as you refer to them. Another thing, sparky, the word Bantu is a fancy name the old Apartheid era politicians used when they referred to blacks. They were only known by two names, bantu or kaffir if you wanted to use a derogatory term. That today is totally unheard of, and rightly so. You know nothing of our history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is sooooooooo obvious.

What is a vultraker??

[R/cst]

I smell troll

[THESPEAR]

You know nothing of our history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is sooooooooo obvious.




Then don't waste your time.

[R/cst]

Then don't waste your time.

Dude I have no Idea what you are smoking but is must be pretty good.

You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to SA history

[Mikhael]

I smell troll
I smelled him 7 pages ago...

[THESPEAR]

Dude I have no Idea what you are smoking but is must be pretty good.

You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to SA history


Smoking? it's ok if you assume whatever i smoke is that good. One thing i do know is that whites have their onw history in South africa , so doeas Blacks.

I can't convince you that the Black the real history is . Nor can you convince me that the white South african history is the correct one.

I'm stoping discusing the history of South africa with you. It isn't wont go no where.

[R/cst]

Smoking? it's ok if you assume whatever i smoke is that good. One thing i do know is that whites have their onw history in South africa , so doeas Blacks.

I can't convince you that the Black the real history is . Nor can you convince me that the white South african history is the correct one.

I'm stoping discusing the history of South africa with you. It isn't wont go no where.


I know the history of SA both black and white quite well, its something I am interested in and I read whatever I can find.

There are plenty of cases where tribal chief have sold or given land to settlers in exchange for goods or support.



When the Boers arrived in Natal in 1837 he feared that they wanted to take over his kingdom. He was, however, confident that they would become his allies and supply him with the firearms he desired. The Boer leader, Piet Retief (javascript:;), and his party visited Dingane's royal kraal, where they apparently concluded a deal that Dingane would grant the frontiersmen land in Natal on condition that they recovered Zulu cattle stolen by the Tlokwa chief, Sekonyela. Early in February 1838 Retief, and his party of about one hundred men, returned to Dingane to hand over the cattle. As a matter of etiquette, they were ordered to stack their guns outside the royal kraal. They obeyed and were killed. His massacre of the Voortrekkers led to the devastating defeat of the Zulus at the Battle of Blood River (javascript:;) on 16 December 1838.
http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/artsmediaculture/culture%20&%20heritage/cultural-groups/zulu.htm




Here are some links for you
http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/artsmediaculture/culture%20&%20heritage/cultural-groups/xhosa.htm

http://www.southafrica-travel.net/history/wood.htm

http://www.historyworld.net/timesearch/default.asp?conid=static_timeline&timelineid=421&page=1&keywords=South%20Africa%20(republic)

http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/aflang/zulu/history.html

http://www.unisa.ac.za/default.asp?Cmd=ViewContent&ContentID=1172

http://www.voortrekker-history.co.za/sixth_war_great_trek.php

[DanteXavier]

I see you havent been following the discussion, we were discussing the lower part of SA ie KwaZulu Natal, eastern Cape and the Cape.

The bantu tribe were moving down from central Africa and into Kwazulu Natal at around the same time that the first European explorers landed at the Cape.

No, they weren't. Again, since we're using wikipedia...


Pioneering groups had reached modern KwaZulu-Natal in South Africa by 300 A.D. along the coast and the modern Limpopo Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpopo_Province) (formerly Northern Transvaal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvaal)) by 500 A.D.

All of the evidence states that the Bantu were in KwaZulu Natal well over 1000(1350, to be more precise) years before white arrival. I'm willing to bet that in those 1000+ years they had established themselves in most of the Eastern Cape(East of PE) at the least. The Northern and Western Capes are another story.

I've been following the discussion, promise. :)

[DanteXavier]

+1, new its just matter of time

I don't think it will get that far.

[wilhelm]

No, they weren't. Again, since we're using wikipedia...



All of the evidence states that the Bantu were in KwaZulu Natal well over 1000(1350, to be more precise) years before white arrival. I'm willing to bet that in those 1000+ years they had established themselves in most of the Eastern Cape(East of PE) at the least. The Northern and Western Capes are another story.

I've been following the discussion, promise. :)

Your maths is faulty. If you want to include pioneering bantu groups, then why exclude the pioneering european groups? Clue: Jan van Riebeeck was not the first European to land in South Africa, nor the first to actually have to live there for a protracted period of time. ;-)

Either way, the entire point being that neither black nor white are the original inhabitants, which make certain political/ethnic calls for farmland to be ceded to them hypocritical.

The San remains the most sidelined entity in South Africa.

[DanteXavier]

Your maths is faulty. If you want to include pioneering bantu groups, then why exclude the pioneering european groups? Clue: Jan van Riebeeck was not the first European to land in South Africa, nor the first to actually have to live there for a protracted period of time. ;-)


The only other European I can think of to have landed in SA was Bart Dias in 1487, and that is still over 1000 years of difference.

If there's someone I'm missing, clue me in.


Either way, the entire point being that neither black nor white are the original inhabitants, which make certain political/ethnic calls for farmland to be ceded to them hypocritical.

The San remains the most sidelined entity in South Africa.

I'm not questioning that.

[R/cst]

What happens when you just hand over land over to people who do not have the skill or ability to make it work



Restitution runs adrift in maze of neglect, debt and misappropriation

THREE farms bought by the government as part of its land restitution programme in the Sundays River Valley have been run into the ground, with one being auctioned off after beneficiaries battled to keep it going.
Trenly in Addo, valued at about R16-million and which could have fetched R30-million had it been productive, was sold on public auction for R8,25-million in January.

Now the new owner, veteran farmer Johan Venter, says he has to spend millions more.

A Herald team saw weeds in the fields, dead citrus trees, missing fences and rusting farming implements this week.

The land affairs department paid about R4-million for the 286 hectare citrus farm and handed it over to the Ikhuba Trust in 2005.

The trust borrowed more than R2-million from the Land Bank, but with interest the debt escalated to R6-million this year.

Under the management of Ikhuba, which consists of 12 members, the farm collapsed.

Trust chairman Lukes Phillips refused to comment, but a provincial agriculture department official, who did not want to be named, said: “At some point, the beneficiaries didn‘t even live on the farm.”

The official added that:
The government “dumps” people on farms, giving them little or no financial or managerial support, and with no mechanisms to monitor farms or the progress of projects.

Some of the beneficiaries don‘t live on the land or in the area, making it impossible for them to manage the farms effectively.

Some have too many beneficiaries and the group dynamics become impossible to manage, leading to conflict and confusion.

Money for capital and farm operations is used for personal needs.

In peak season, most beneficiaries dump their projects and pack fruit and vegetables to earn salaries.

Some don‘t pay rates bills for months, leading to the irrigation board attaching farms or implements.

Beneficiaries sell assets like stock and ploughs.

The official said another farm had been attached by the local irrigation board between 2005 and 2006 as the beneficiaries could not pay their water bills.

Nomzamo in Kirkwood, which was handed over to 94 families in 1996, has also collapsed completely, with the former managers said to have sold farming implements, beef and dairy stock and allegedly misappropriating funds.

About 9ha of land was recently auctioned to pay electricity and water bills.

Philisile Ntshinga, a ember of one of the 94 family claimants, was recently appointed by his community to take over the running of the farm when the previous managers “disappeared after misappropriating funds”, he said.
“We sold 9ha to pay R37000 in water bills because the irrigation board was about to attach our farm,” he said.

“This was a dairy farm, but they sold off the cows and killed the rest for meat.

“The milking area was closed down and the equipment was looted.”
Venter, a farmer for 30 years and who plans to farm lucerne at Trenly, said Ikhuba Trust had auctioned the farm because of financial problems
Had the farm been productive, “it could well have sold for about R30-million”.

“There is a lot of work to be done there,” he said.

“I put up millions of rand to get it up to production. I am busy preparing a dam now and it‘s costing me a fortune.”

Venter said land claims beneficiaries wanted to succeed, but had no guidance or experience.

“Somebody must help. Those guys need help.”

A source close to the original deal, who did not want to be named, said the government had made a considerable loss.

“After selling the land, Ikhuba had to repay the Land Bank, leaving them with about R2-million.

“That money will have to pay suppliers, water and electricity and other bills and they will be left with nothing.

“The government‘s initial capital of R4-million is lost. The land was not sold at its market value and they lost a chance to implement land reform programmes.”

Eastern Cape agriculture department spokesman Fikile Black said yesterday he did not know the specifics for Trenly and Nomzamo, “but what we normally do is ask farmers to contact our regional offices to request assistance with infrastructure”.

“The department considers their requests and, based on the budget, we assist them.”

District manager Thembani Nyokana said he would only be able to provide detailed information on the farms today.
http://www.theherald.co.za/article.aspx?id=396979

[chino65]

Smells like communism - taking from the rich, giving to the poor.

Can never completely ignore the basic fact that some people are poor for very good reasons: They are lazy, unmotivated, inept, incapable or quite simply not very bright.

May have nothing much to do with discrimination or being down-trodden etc.

And these people will be poor under whatever government ideology or racial environment.

After the revolution in China they promoted all the peasants and down-trodden to high places with catastrophic results.

[Rudolph]

Smells like communism - taking from the rich, giving to the poor.

Can never completely ignore the basic fact that some people are poor for very good reasons: They are lazy, unmotivated, inept, incapable or quite simply not very bright.

May have nothing much to do with discrimination or being down-trodden etc.

And these people will be poor under whatever government ideology or racial environment.

After the revolution in China they promoted all the peasants and down-trodden to high places with catastrophic results.

I don't agree with everyone you have said, but some things are true... Many of these farms fail completely once handed over because the people just sell off equipment as soon as they can, or start a little vegetable garden without any motivation or know-how to run a commercial farm. But some have a right to the land, but whether they can make a success of it or not is the question!

[R/cst]

new owner, veteran farmer Johan Venter said land claims beneficiaries wanted to succeed, but had no guidance or experience.

“Somebody must help. Those guys need help.”


The ANC government is to blame here, thay have failed these people.

They should have invested more money in training the claiments on how to run a farm, many of the white commercial famers have suggested that the new farmers be paired with them in order to give the new farmers a helping hand.