Estonian President REFUSES To Remove Soviet Memorial

[tyovan]

Estonia's president has refused to sign a controversial law that would pave the way for removing a Soviet war memorial.

Toomas Hendrik Ilves said some sections of the law were unconstitutional.

Earlier on Thursday the Estonian parliament passed a bill obliging the government to remove the monument within a month.

The "Bronze Soldier" has become a symbol of divisions in Estonian society. Ethnic Russians are firmly against the plan to remove it.

Most of the country's large Russian-speaking minority regard the statue as an anti-fascist symbol, but for many ethnic Estonians it honours a regime which occupied the country for more than 50 years. Russians form about one-third of the Baltic republic's population.

Mr Ilves accused some Estonian politicians of using the issue "merely to draw attention to themselves" ahead of the 4 March parliamentary election.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, quoted by the Interfax news agency, called the Estonian MPs' vote a "very big mistake and an act of blasphemy which is unacceptable in today's Europe".

The law would prohibit the display of monuments glorifying Soviet rule, which ended in 1991.

Mr Lavrov's deputy Vladimir Titov warned that approving the law would have irreversible consequences for relations with Estonia.

After clashes between ethnic Russian and Estonian activists at the statue, the Estonian government said it wanted to move the monument - and the soldiers' remains thought to be buried beneath it - to a more suitable location.

Prime Minister Andrus Ansip said the government would be able to order the monument's removal anyway, using a law on the protection of war graves which was passed in January, the BBC's Laura Sheeter reports from Tallinn.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6364399.stm

[asch]

wow. it's a wise move by Estonian president. unexpected by me, to be honest.

[RomanS]

Respect to Estonian President!!!!!!

[Knez Eru]

That was unexpected

Well then at least there's one more sane/reasonable person in the world

[Mamont]

Hands down - right move.

[Thor]

Don't know if the estonians will appreciate a president that takes his orders from Moscow and not the Estonian parliament..


If a foreign communist force occupied my country I would for sure want all of it's remains gone once they were thrown out.

[CPL Trevoga]

Don't know if the estonians will appreciate a president that takes his orders from Moscow and not the Estonian parliament..
If a foreign communist force occupied my country I would for sure want all of it's remains gone once they were thrown out.

You don't know your history son.

[asch]

Don't know if the estonians will appreciate a president that takes his orders from Moscow and not the Estonian parliament..
If a foreign communist force occupied my country I would for sure want all of it's remains gone once they were thrown out.

haha, of course you must pop up here.:cantbeli:

[Kawai]

I heard that some Estonian party wanted to replace Bronze Soldier with monument to Ronald Rheigan (sorry I don't know the right transcription), and to rename the whole place with his name. They declare him as the fighter for freedom and so on.
Am I right?
If just removing the memory of people who died to fight out German troops from Estonia, is just disgusting, then erecting another monument to Rheigan...well I have a comment, but I'll better stay silent.

[Kap2406]

haha, of course you must pop up here.:cantbeli:

Didn't you know that Thor and Switek are on 24-hour watch when it comes to Russian threads... Switek is probably asleep, so it is Thor's turn to "give us hell"woot

[Thor]

haha, of course us soviet fan boys must pop up here.:cantbeli:
Fixed it.


You don't know our stalinistic history son.
Fixed it for you too pikko poika.

[Kawai]

Flaming personally is the right sign you're out of any serious arguments. Miserable sight.

[Switek]

Didn't you know that Thor and Switek are on 24-hour watch when it comes to Russian threads... Switek is probably asleep, so it is Thor's turn to "give us hell"woot

Thank you for your appreciation. :)


http://images.cafepress.com/product/81705030v9_240x240_Front.jpg...;)

[asch]

Fixed it.


Fixed it for you to, pikko poika.
let's see, here "soviet", "stalinist"....

....you forget "Gulag", "NKVD" and some other yer favorite jerk-words.


btw, how it is i am a "stalinist"? i very eager to know this. because if you can't prove your point, it could mean that you are liar, my north-western fellow homo-sapiens.

[Thor]

Flaming personally is the right sign you're out of any serious arguments. Miserable sight.
I'll take that as a hint to your countrymen.


let's see, here "soviet", "stalinist"....

....you forget "Gulag", "NKVD" and some other yer favorite jerk-words.


btw, how it is i am a "stalinist"? i very eager to know this. because if you can't prove your point, it could mean that you are liar, my north-western fellow homo-sapiens.
For sure not my favorite words. Seems to be your favorite words though, especially since you mention them in an apologetic way.

I'm not going to define Stalinist History since that's a fairly extensive subject. In this thread it comes down to different views regarding occupiers and "liberators".

[Mamont]

I'll take that as a hint to your countrymen.

:) You have to look at the mirror more often.



For sure not my favorite words.

Funny. Well, how come you use them so much? You have a portrait of Hitler on the wall and Lenin's works under the pillow to better memorise those horrible words and persons? You even going so far as to "correct" other people words to satisfy your views.. Pityfull..



I'm not going to define Stalinist History since that's a fairly extensive subject.

Thank god.



In this thread it comes down to different views regarding occupiers and "liberators".

Indeed. Pluralism and democrasy at it's finest.


About Reagan - in Katovice(?) poles wanted to replace the monument of Soviet soldiers with the monument of the Reagan and rename Freedom Square to the Freedom Square of Reagan or something like that.

[Switek]

About Reagan - in Katovice(?) poles wanted to replace the monument of Soviet soldiers with the monument of the Reagan and rename Freedom Square to the Freedom Square of Reagan or something like that.

It's decision of local authorities and represents views of residents of Katowice. Nothing more. Government has nothing to do with this. Monument of Soviet soldiers will be shifted to a graveyard.


btw Do you know that Katowice was renamed between 1953-56 as Stalinogród? So now you can see the result of forced sovietisation of Silesians... No doubt that they regard soviet troops as an occupants.

[Thor]

:) You have to look at the mirror more often.
I do. In Soviet Russia you don't watch yourself in the mirror, the mirror watches you.


Funny. Well, how come you use them so much?
Not much, but when I do it's because they are important.


About Reagan - in Katovice(?) poles wanted to replace the monument of Soviet soldiers with the monument of the Reagan and rename Freedom Square to the Freedom Square of Reagan or something like that.
You seriously think Soviet Union is popular?

Regarding Katowice you might just get a clue based on what happened outside that city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

[Kawai]

I'll take that as a hint to your countrymen.

I'd rather suggest you to start from yourself. There still much work to do. You maybe should learn history, also. All the terms you're using including "stalinism" are out of use up to 50 years ago. Trying to describe our country nowadays with outdated terms is like mounting "Ford A" 's bumper at Lancer Evo VII.

Regarding Katowice - my fault, I was poorly informed. I don't claim USSR to be an ideal country and will never do. But demoniznig it and turning RF into USSR no matter what seems like some numb and unrealistic point of view.

2 Switek: BTW, I've forgot about some square in Warszawa. Which name has it now? Dudaev's? Basaev's? Could you tell me as Poland sitizen, why in the hell to name the public place with the name of a terrorist leader?

[asch]

I'll take that as a hint to your countrymen.


For sure not my favorite words. Seems to be your favorite words though, especially since you mention them in an apologetic way.

I'm not going to define Stalinist History since that's a fairly extensive subject. In this thread it comes down to different views regarding occupiers and "liberators".

still, no answer




liar.

[50pushman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6364399.stm


I'm very glad that estonians are on their way of stopping to deny history. Soviet forces liberated Estonia from the fascist yoke, ofcaurse many estonians sympathized with the nazi-ideology and fortunatly they were punished in the right way for it.

During the 50 years of Russian annexation the baltic farmer-societies flourished into industrial states with a big services sector thanks to the billions Russia poured in these impoverished states.

Hopefully the relations between baltics and Russia will improve over the years as there is no way of denying history.

[kosse]

I'm very glad that estonians are on their way of stopping to deny history. Soviet forces liberated Estonia from the fascist yoke, ofcaurse many estonians sympathized with the nazi-ideology and fortunatly they were punished in the right way for it.

During the 50 years of Russian annexation the baltic farmer-societies flourished into industrial states with a big services sector thanks to the billions Russia poured in these impoverished states.

Hopefully the relations between baltics and Russia will improve over the years as there is no way of denying history.
roflroflroflroflroflroflroflrofl

I rarely burst into laughter while at my computer but you really cracked me up roflwoot

[CPL Trevoga]

Fixed it.
Fixed it for you too pikko poika.

Don't think for a second that I'm some kind of stalinist. I grew up in the era when all traces of Stalinism were removed and it was Lenin who was the man. We had so much Lenin that even now I cringe when I see his portrait.
Stalin was petty Georgian criminal and a bank rober. Some old folks might still like him, but I suspect they nostalgic for the days they were young.

Anyway this shows that the "bronse soldier" incident was nothing but dermocratic manuvering. As they say, there is no such thing as bad publicity for politicians. F*cking former commies turned democratic lions.

PS I hope pikko poika means good friend.

[Switek]

I'd rather suggest you to start from yourself. There still much work to do. You maybe should learn history, also. All the terms you're using including "stalinism" are out of use up to 50 years ago. Trying to describe our country nowadays with outdated terms is like mounting "Ford A" 's bumper at Lancer Evo VII.

Regarding Katowice - my fault, I was poorly informed. I don't claim USSR to be an ideal country and will never do. But demoniznig it and turning RF into USSR no matter what seems like some numb and unrealistic point of view.

2 Switek: BTW, I've forgot about some square in Warszawa. Which name has it now? Dudaev's? Basaev's? Could you tell me as Poland sitizen, why in the hell to name the public place with the name of a terrorist leader?

Some people are labelled terrorist with no undoubtfoul proof... It was independent decission of Warsaw authoriries to name one traffic circle of Gen. Dzhokhar Dudaev who first of all was President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. No all Chechens who fought fot their own indepedence were terrorists...

[tommy00]

I'm very glad that estonians are on their way of stopping to deny history. Soviet forces liberated Estonia from the fascist yoke, ofcaurse many estonians sympathized with the nazi-ideology and fortunatly they were punished in the right way for it.

During the 50 years of Russian annexation the baltic farmer-societies flourished into industrial states with a big services sector thanks to the billions Russia poured in these impoverished states.

Hopefully the relations between baltics and Russia will improve over the years as there is no way of denying history.

Good one......Nice to see, how people are trying to be funny,but now....perhaps it´s time to go back to a classroom.....

[CPL Trevoga]

Some people are labelled terrorist with no undoubtfoul proof... It was independent decission of Warsaw authoriries to name one traffic circle of Gen. Dzhokhar Dudaev who first of all was President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. No all Chechens who fought fot their own indepedence were terrorists...

WTF Switek? Ethinic cleansing in Balkans pales compared to what those animals did during their "independence." You named a square for a man who authorised ethnic cleansings, rapes and unlimited violence aganist non-Chechens. It wasn't horourable and it doesn't deserve a square in the middle of Warsaw. If you ever wonder why some people might feel hostile towards Poland look no further for a reason.

[Switek]

WTF Switek? Ethinic cleansing in Balkans pales compared to what those animals did during their "independence." You named a square for a man who authorised ethnic cleansings, rapes and unlimited violence aganist non-Chechens. It wasn't horourable and it doesn't deserve a square in the middle of Warsaw. If you ever wonder why some people might feel hostile towards Poland look no further for a reason.

It's part of the debate wihch shold take place in Russia first, You know better who were some Chechens... but it's your problem. I do not care about decission of Warsaw people...

[Smersh]

Thor is becoming another Kilgor.

[kosse]

Thor is becoming another Kilgor.
Thor is by far the worst of the paranoid, xenophobic and antirussian trolls here.

[Mamont]

It's decision of local authorities and represents views of residents of Katowice. Nothing more. Government has nothing to do with this. Monument of Soviet soldiers will be shifted to a graveyard.

As far as i remember, monument to russian soldiers was to be destroyed and Reagan's put in place of it. All this would cost 170-200k$. I guess Reagan mean for those locals alot more, than soldiers who fought for their existance..
Maybe they have to make statue of Alec Baldwin too?



btw Do you know that Katowice was renamed between 1953-56 as Stalinogród? So now you can see the result of forced sovietisation of Silesians... No doubt that they regard soviet troops as an occupants.
Yes, i know. Do you want names of those polish communists who proposed that? Well, i think you can dig your history yourself, and do not forget those uprisings in 1918-1921, if you want to go that deep..

Anyway, do you always perceive any comments about poland as offence? Why you always point to Stalin or similar subject if matter in some instances touches Russia? Stalin's era is less than 1/3 history of Ussr, bear with it.



No all Chechens who fought fot their own indepedence were terrorists...
Switek, you talk about independence. So tell me, what your goverment will do in case say Lubelskie declared independence?

In case of Thor, people, let's leave his personality analisys aside and allow him to live in his imaginary world, where he can fight Stalin and Hitler all the way he wants..

[kalkun]

123456789...

[daily666]

WTF Switek? Ethinic cleansing in Balkans pales compared to what those animals did during their "independence." You named a square for a man who authorised ethnic cleansings, rapes and unlimited violence aganist non-Chechens. It wasn't horourable and it doesn't deserve a square in the middle of Warsaw. If you ever wonder why some people might feel hostile towards Poland look no further for a reason.

I agree it was total useless and unnecessary. I've always had a hard thought on the Chechnya issue, right from the start. This guy authorised not only killings but illicit drugs trade and so on. Maybe not a terrorist but a common criminal.


Switek, you talk about independence. So tell me, what your goverment will do in case say Lubelskie declared independence?

Good point!

[Flamming_Python]

I'm impressed with Estonia's President; pragmatists always create a good impression on me. His personal views may well be that of removing the statue, but he knows that doing this would only segregate Estonian society and create unneccesery tensions.


Some people are labelled terrorist with no undoubtfoul proof... It was independent decission of Warsaw authoriries to name one traffic circle of Gen. Dzhokhar Dudaev who first of all was President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. No all Chechens who fought fot their own indepedence were terrorists...

Maybe not all, but certainly Dudaev was :roll:

[sir-chimp]

Thor is becoming another Kilgor.

damn you just gave thor a complement

thats very big of you

[AN_TPS_63A]

Fixed it.


Fixed it for you too pikko poika.

Pikko poika? What's that? Something like ****head pal? ;)

[kosse]

Pikko poika? What's that? Something like ****head pal? ;)
Pikku poika is "little kid" in Finnish. Maybe he is trying to make it look like he's a finn now that he has embarrassed all swedes (his homeland) on this board.

[DIU]

I'm impressed with Estonia's President; pragmatists always create a good impression on me. His personal views may well be that of removing the statue, but he knows that doing this would only segregate Estonian society and create unneccesery tensions.

The parliamentary elections will be held in Estonia on 4 March, in two weeks. All dirty maneuvers are about that. And don’t praise the old CIA-man Ilves (the former USA citizen, chief of the Estonian section of radio “Free Europe” living in Estonia from 1996, and the Estonian president from September 2006), he only plays his role in this bad-smelling performance.

By the way, the population of Estonia includes now 1.159.000 citizens, 130.000 non-citizens and 107.000 citizens of other states (incl. 94.000 citizens of Russian Federation – naturally, the prevailing majority of them were born in Estonia, immigration from Russia is negligible). Though many citizens (at least 60.000) in fact live in other countries.

[Kilgor]

I'm very glad that estonians are on their way of stopping to deny history. Soviet forces liberated Estonia from the fascist yoke, ofcaurse many estonians sympathized with the nazi-ideology and fortunatly they were punished in the right way for it.
.

If you have forgotten...

USSR and Germany were allies for a period of time.

USSR and Germany started ww2, by secretly dividing the Baltic's and Poland and then invading them.

Significant amounts of the USSR's population aided, co-operated and served with the german armed forces. Ie 60.000 at stalingrad.

Before rambling on about "fascist loving Estonians" why not wake up to reality first.

[Switek]

As far as i remember, monument to russian soldiers was to be destroyed and Reagan's put in place of it. All this would cost 170-200k$. I guess Reagan mean for those locals alot more, than soldiers who fought for their existance..
Maybe they have to make statue of Alec Baldwin too?


Yes, i know. Do you want names of those polish communists who proposed that? Well, i think you can dig your history yourself, and do not forget those uprisings in 1918-1921, if you want to go that deep..

Anyway, do you always perceive any comments about poland as offence? Why you always point to Stalin or similar subject if matter in some instances touches Russia? Stalin's era is less than 1/3 history of Ussr, bear with it.


Switek, you talk about independence. So tell me, what your goverment will do in case say Lubelskie declared independence?

In case of Thor, people, let's leave his personality analisys aside and allow him to live in his imaginary world, where he can fight Stalin and Hitler all the way he wants..

According Gazeta Wyborcza (http://miasta.gazeta.pl/katowice/1,35063,3899100.html) (one of the most reliable Polish nespaper) this monument is going to be moved... Nthing more I can say, couse I don't know.

Reagan was important partner of Polish pope John Paul 2nd. May be this why Reagan. No idea why no one else...

Stalin was the most bloody dictator and his rule influenced USSR practicaly to the collapse.

Lubelskie? No way. According my knowledge the most "separatist" regions in Poland are: Upper Silesia, Greater Poland (where I come from and live) and Kashubian... ;) (Sorry daily...)

Anyway I know what you mean... Yo can not compare current Poland (ethnically almost homogeneous state) with multi ethnical Russia where Chchens, AFAIK, have never accepted Russian and Soviet rule.

btw. may be Dudaev is the same type like his countryman Kadyrov. I do not deny. But ask town concilliors from Warsaw hy they named this miserable traffic circle with the name of this ambigous person. I do not know.

[DIU]

If you have forgotten...

USSR and Germany were allies for a period of time.

USSR and Germany started ww2, by secretly dividing the Baltic's and Poland and then invading them.

Significant amounts of the USSR's population aided, co-operated and served with the german armed forces. Ie 60.000 at stalingrad.

Before rambling on about "fascist loving Estonians" why not wake up to reality first.

Repeating lie doesn't make it truth.

USSR and Nazi Germany never were allies (otherwise Turkey or Sweden should be declared the German allies in 1939-41).

Only Germany started WW2 on 1.09.1939. USSR and Germany never divided anything, only concluded mutual non-aggression pact, just the same as the British and French agreements with Hitler in 1938.

USSR's population included Estonian population by 1941.

The problem with Estonians is not their fascist loving in 1941-44, but their fascist loving now.

[Switek]

Only Germany started WW2 on 1.09.1939. USSR and Germany never divided anything, only concluded mutual non-aggression pact, just the same as the British and French agreements with Hitler in 1938.

:cantbeli:

As usual false of history. Take a look:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Ribbentrop-Molotov.PNG/750px-Ribbentrop-Molotov.PNG

[Mamont]

According Gazeta Wyborcza (http://miasta.gazeta.pl/katowice/1,35063,3899100.html) (one of the most reliable Polish nespaper) this monument is going to be moved... Nthing more I can say, couse I don't know.


I don't know either. So we can close the subject.



Stalin was the most bloody dictator and his rule influenced USSR practicaly to the collapse.


But in case of the estonians and that monument in Katowice, the monuments are not dedicated to Stalin and his achievements. They dedicated to those that lost their lives securing the very existence of the mentioned residents. So what Stalin has to do with them now?



Lubelskie? No way. According my knowledge the most "separatist" regions in Poland are: Upper Silesia, Greater Poland (where I come from and live) and Kashubian... ;) (Sorry daily...)

:) Do not wander off. I picked that province as an example. So?



Anyway I know what you mean... Yo can not compare current Poland (ethnically almost homogeneous state) with multi ethnical Russia where Chchens, AFAIK, have never accepted Russian and Soviet rule.

If i were a flamer, statement above could provide a very interesting discussion about ways of homogenization..



btw. may be Dudaev is the same type like his countryman Kadyrov.


Kadyrow, though a sb, is at least loyal to the Moscow to a degree. And under him Chechnya slowly rebuilds.



I do not deny. But ask town concilliors from Warsaw hy they named this miserable traffic circle with the name of this ambigous person. I do not know.

Guess it's the same as in Lvov(Lemberg). Either of blind ignorance(though Dudaev was a former Tu-22M pilot, and a good one, but i don't believe that this fact is commonly known), but more possibly to sting Russia at least a bit more.

Edit: switek do you read that secret protocol carefully?

[Switek]

But in case of the estonians and that monument in Katowice, the monuments are not dedicated to Stalin and his achievements. They dedicated to those that lost their lives securing the very existence of the mentioned residents. So what Stalin has to do with them now?

The locations and shifments of monuments is one of prerogatives of local authorities (city councils) and have nothig to do with national goverment. This decission is questionable but can't be stopped by Warsaw.

Here (http://www.um.katowice.pl/en/index.php) is Katowice's official website - in English. I didn't go through but may be you can write your objections

[Kilgor]

Only Germany started WW2 on 1.09.1939. USSR and Germany never divided anything, only concluded mutual non-aggression pact, just the same as the British and French agreements with Hitler in 1938.



Secret Additional Protocol.

Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.

Article III. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinteredness in these areas.

Article IV. This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.


Moscow, August 23, 1939.


For the Government of the German Reich v. Ribbentrop

Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov

[Kilgor]

Only Germany started WW2 on 1.09.1939. USSR and Germany never divided anything, only concluded mutual non-aggression pact, just the same as the British and French agreements with Hitler in 1938.



It was also a trade pact too, which the British and French governments did not have.

[Switek]

Secret Additional Protocol.

Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.

Article III. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinteredness in these areas.

Article IV. This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.


Moscow, August 23, 1939.


For the Government of the German Reich v. Ribbentrop

Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov

and little pearl:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Mapa_2_paktu_Ribbentrop-Mołotow.gif/432px-Mapa_2_paktu_Ribbentrop-Mołotow.gif


Second Ribentropp-Molotov Pact.28.09.1939. Map of Poland signed by Stalin an Ribentropp with new German-Soviet border. Author unknown. This is photo of document made in 1946 for Nurnberg Trial purposes ( German origin - defence of Ribentropp and Goring)

[Mamont]

and little pearl:


Read protocol again. Especially first two chapters. Carefully think about words and look at the date of all succeding event.

[Switek]

Read protocol again. Especially first two chapters. Carefully think about words and look at the date of all succeding event.

many explanations of the date difference are possible... we know the factual result...

[Lazarou]

But in case of the estonians and that monument in Katowice, the monuments are not dedicated to Stalin and his achievements. They dedicated to those that lost their lives securing the very existence of the mentioned residents. So what Stalin has to do with them now?
Estonia lost over 20% of its population during the three Soviet/German occupations it suffered during WW2 and had to go through a half a century under Soviet rule, and you want them to be grateful?
Following your logic there should also be a huge Nazi statue right in the middle of Moscow - dedicated, of course, not to Hitler nor his achievements, but to the average Fritz and his humble effort to liberate the USSR.

[daily666]

Lubelskie? No way. According my knowledge the most "separatist" regions in Poland are: Upper Silesia, Greater Poland (where I come from and live) and Kashubian... ;) (Sorry daily...)

We're not separatist Switek p-)

"Ni ma Kaszub bez Polonii, a bez Kaszub Polsci"

[daily666]

USSR and Nazi Germany never were allies

I agree with you DIU. I think 3rd Reich never attacked Poland and had nothing to do with holocaust as well. :cantbeli:


Only Germany started WW2 on 1.09.1939. USSR and Germany never divided anything, only concluded mutual non-aggression pact, just the same as the British and French agreements with Hitler in 1938.

Oh never! The peace loving Stalin the great leader of dear DIU (PBUH) would never do that! Also the invasion (spit!) of the Baltics was a peaceful annexation. I guess they loved it that way.

http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa072699.htm
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/pact.htm
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/nazi_soviet.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

Hail the USSR! Hail!

[sir-chimp]

USSR and Nazi Germany never were allies .

Waiter!

I will have what he is smoking

[GazB]

So the agreement to divide europe that was signed by the USSR, Britain and the USA means that the UK and the USA are in cohoots with the Soviets... where is your venom for the US and UK? They signed away "ownership" of all of the baltics and eastern europe with the flick of a pen...

BTW, my first feeling regarding the first post, was who cares? Estonia is the wests bitch now, they can erase their history and suckle on the nipple of the west and whine about how hard things were under communism. If they want Raygun square, with Lone Ranger avenue, and maybe call their embassy in Moscow Coca Cola ltd bottling factory they should do it.

[Smersh]

I can't beleive its another Molotov-Ribbentrop pact dicussion. How many times do we have to go over this!?

Hmm, let me point to the Munich agreement (signed before the molotov pact), and then conclude the British government and Nazi Germany had an alliance. I have pictures of Chamberlain with Hitler too, they must be best buds, right???

Coca Cola ,an American company, did business in Germany, even during the war. They're in an alliance too! IBM sold germany computers used in concentration camps. Secert american-corporate alliances?

[Smersh]

Are we going to repeat the same threads over and over again?

[Kilgor]

Until you guys learn anything other than Kremlin and stalinist history, It seems so.

[CG51]

Waiter!

I will have what he is smoking


Rewriting history is "in" these days.

[C.MAXIMUS]

I was in Estonia working not too long ago and nobody had a thing to say about the USSR ... they were just as bad as the nazis was the general feedback.

I think overall the estonian people has to decide if it is apropriate to have a monument or not.

[Kaapeli]

I'm having very mixed feelings about this issue.
I do understand that Estonians don't like statues honouring hostile invaders around but on the other hand I think war memorials for fallen soldiers should be respected even if they were nazi or commie memorials.

[Lazarou]

I'm having very mixed feelings about this issue.
I do understand that Estonians don't like statues honouring hostile invaders around but on the other hand I think war memorials for fallen soldiers should be respected even if they were nazi or commie memorials.
The problem is not the "memorial" but where it's located. They're not planning to eradicate the it but to move it from the center of their capital to a cemetery.

[Smersh]

The problem is not the "memorial" but where it's located. They're not planning to eradicate the it but to move it from the center of their capital to a cemetery.
you act like its in the center of the city in the main square. Its in a small quiet park.

[daily666]

I don't have anything against memorials of fallen soviet soldiers. They deserve respect as most of them really believed they were fighitng for the greater good, and many of the soldiers died for it. There are few of them (memorials with cementaries) around where I live and they are taken great care of.

It's a different issue for the EE nations when it comes to "liberation" memorials, as most of us (I'm talking about us: PL/LT/LV/EE/CZ/SK/HU etc...) don't consider this as a liberation but another kind of occupation. I think especially the baltic states are strict on this issue as they were forcibly annexed into the USSR to become one of the soviet republics.

[oldsoak]

I think the Estonian president has wisely chosen a middle path.

[Mamont]

many explanations of the date difference are possible... we know the factual result...

Indeed. Poland is a country again, Lithuania/Litva received it's capital and Hitler was defeated.
You still don't answer previous question about independence and evaded answer now, putting general comment. Why?

I really don't understand why M-R pact is such an issue, while Munich and Yalta always forgotten..

And please point to the alliance treaty between Ussr and Germany.

Lazarou

Estonia lost over 20% of its population during the three Soviet/German occupations it suffered during WW2 and had to go through a half a century under Soviet rule, and you want them to be grateful?

Hmm, that's interesting. Let's see: in 1939, before entering Ussr population of Estonia was about 950k people(~1100k from other sources). In the times of ww2 under german occupation 61k people killed, 74,5k people were "recruted" for work in Germany and about 70k people emigrated before the end of the war. That sums up to 205.5k people. In 1940-41 21k folksdeutsche emigrated to Germany, 10k aressted/deported by Ussr. In the losses of Soviet Army during ww2 there were about 21k estonians, so the whole number rises to about 260k people. In the 1989, after declaring independence the number estonian population was about 1500k people. Now it is less then 1300k people. So? Do you really know what are you talking about, or just blabbing after some stupid propaganda?

Edit: i forgot - the numbers above did not include those estonians, who died while serving in german army(~80k men) because i simply don't know.

[daily666]

I really don't understand why M-R pact is such an issue, while Munich and Yalta always forgotten.

I partially agree with you. Including Munich we could say the WWII was most of all a British fault (that idiot Chamberlain) and It was Yalta where we got sold out mostly by Roosevelt to be a Soviet puppet. Many people dare to forget about that indeed. You have to remember Ribbentrop- Molotov pact led directly into the war where USSR acted as an agressor. This fact was denied for 50 years of our history that's why it's so often taken into consideration on the issue of WWII and history of communist Poland. It was called the IVth division of Poland (and in fact it was).

[LEGEND]

I think overall the estonian people has to decide if it is apropriate to have a monument or not.

Estonian 67.9%, Russian 25.6%, Ukrainian 2.1%, Belarusian 1.3%, Finn 0.9%, other 2.2% (2000 census)

almost a third of the country is FOR the monument. Removing this monument is a spit into the face to a third of the population.

[50pushman]

If you have forgotten...

USSR and Germany were allies for a period of time.

USSR and Germany started ww2, by secretly dividing the Baltic's and Poland and then invading them.

Significant amounts of the USSR's population aided, co-operated and served with the german armed forces. Ie 60.000 at stalingrad.

Before rambling on about "fascist loving Estonians" why not wake up to reality first.

USSR and Germany were not allies although they did have a non-agression part. Somebody already mentioned England and France already.

With the 'significant' ammounts of USSR population that aided Germany' I think you are referring to hiwi's? Personally I'm not the one to judge easily so I'll leave that subject untouched since it's a big moral dillema that can only be taken by people of that time.

USSR just reclaimed it's territories that unrightfully secceded a few years before, you cannot compare that to Germany's rampage through Europe.

[daily666]

USSR and Germany were not allies although they did have a non-agression part. Somebody already mentioned England and France already.

USSR just reclaimed it's territories that unrightfully secceded a few years before, you cannot compare that to Germany's rampage through Europe.

ORLY?

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22541&d=1171659409


USSR just reclaimed it's territories that unrightfully secceded a few years before, you cannot compare that to Germany's rampage through Europe.

I guess it was not Holland that brainwashed you as badly. Reclaimed it's territories? Since when Tallin, Riga, Vilnius or Brest was Russian? :bash:

[asch]

ORLY?

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22541&d=1171659409

failed to see proof of alliance between Germany and USSR in this illustration, sorry.p-)

[CPL Trevoga]

We're not separatist Switek p-)

"Ni ma Kaszub bez Polonii, a bez Kaszub Polsci"

Daily, what's the difference between Polonia i Polsca. One is Latin, (Polska=Pol'sha in RU)?

[daily666]

failed to see proof of alliance between Germany and USSR in this illustration, sorry.p-)

Ok, asch you're a reasonable person and if it's not a proof for you it's fine with me. But you just can't say IIIrd Reich and USSR were not allies. I don't want to go into semantics (the definition of ally).


Secret Additional Protocol

Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.

Article III. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinteredness in these areas.

Article IV. This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.

Moscow, August 23, 1939.
For the Government of the German Reich v. Ribbentrop
Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R. V. Molotov

Pacta sunt servanda


Daily, what's the difference between Polonia i Polsca. One is Latin, (Polska=Pol'sha in RU)?

It was not in Polish it was Kashubian, the language spoken in the region where I live :). http://www.omniglot.com/writing/kashubian.htm

[50pushman]

Reclaimed it's territories? Since when Tallin, Riga, Vilnius or Brest was Russian? :bash:

http://www.ostu.ru/personal/nikolaev/russia1801_1860.gif

:roll:

Since when you ask? Since 1860 up untill the mentioned countries started an insurgency against Russia.

[asch]

well maybe i must explain my pov.
that is just a "if we make a little war, we promise to not mess in your sphere of influence, so do you" thing. basically this sort of agreement is a sort of "NATO will never expands to the East" thing. p-)
alliance is much more deep level of cooperation, as involving in military operation.

damnit, it would be much easily to write in russian :)

[Switek]

I really don't understand why M-R pact is such an issue, while Munich and Yalta always forgotten...


becouse there are again and again new morons who all the time try to deny Third Reich - Soviet Union alliance 1939-41.

As for Munich and esp. Yalta we do not forget... no way

[Slinky]

just move the statue to another place, where soviet soldiers are actually buryd. Middle of the city next to the city hall is not the correct place for that.

[Lazarou]

you act like its in the center of the city in the main square. Its in a small quiet park.

just move the statue to another place, where soviet soldiers are actually buryd. Middle of the city next to the city hall is not the correct place for that.
.............

[Lazarou]

Hmm, that's interesting.
From the Library of Congress:

Altogether, from 1939 to 1945 Estonia lost over 20 percent of its population to the turmoil of Soviet and German expansionism.
http://www.loc.gov/
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ee0013)

USSR just reclaimed it's territories that unrightfully secceded a few years before, you cannot compare that to Germany's rampage through Europe.
The USSR was entitled to enslave those nations because the Russian Empire had done so in the past? What a moral giant you are.

[sir-chimp]

From the Library of Congress:

http://www.loc.gov/
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ee0013)

The USSR was entitled to enslave those nations because the Russian Empire had done so in the past? What a moral giant you are.


And one wonders at those same areas now looking west for protection.

How dare they spit on the wonders Moscow brought.

[50pushman]

The USSR was entitled to enslave those nations because the Russian Empire had done so in the past? What a moral giant you are.

Exactly. In the real world there are no morals. It's the law of the jungle, the survival of the strongest.

[Switek]

Exactly. In the real world there are no morals. It's the law of the jungle, the survival of the strongest.

This what west differ from Russia. West made law of the jungle more smoothly. :)

[50pushman]

This what west differ from Russia. West made law of the jungle more smoothly. :)


What do you mean?

[daily666]

What do you mean?

He means that because of statements like yours the west and especially we have no basis to trust Russia or Russians. Law of the jungle my arse.

[Switek]

What do you mean?

Style, mate nothing but the style. In what way things are going here and there...

[kosse]

Exactly. In the real world there are no morals. It's the law of the jungle, the survival of the strongest.
If that'd be the case you'd be long gone, idiot.

[50pushman]

If that'd be the case you'd be long gone, idiot.


It's people like you who get raped in prison, idiot.

[Lazarou]

Exactly. In the real world there are no morals. It's the law of the jungle, the survival of the strongest.
But yet you seem to condemn Germany's rampage through Europe:

USSR just reclaimed it's territories that unrightfully secceded a few years before, you cannot compare that to Germany's rampage through Europe.
*yawn*

[Mamont]

becouse there are again and again new morons who all the time try to deny Third Reich - Soviet Union alliance 1939-41.

I deny alliance between Ussr and Germany. Please, prove me wrong. With at least some documents. Like Treaty of Alliance between Great Britain and Ussr. Take your time, i'll wait.



As for Munich and esp. Yalta we do not forget... no way

But i do not see any blaming US or Britain from the likes of you.. Strange, isn't it? It's Russian fault for all - provoking Hitler, division of Poland and so on..

Strangely, how this topic again turned to Poland and pre-ww2 politics. People must be living in the past..

Lazarou, have you at least tried to comprehend what i wrote?

[Switek]

I deny alliance between Ussr and Germany. Please, prove me wrong. With at least some documents. Like Treaty of Alliance between Great Britain and Ussr. Take your time, i'll wait.

I can't help you... seems you're one of them. Your choice

Call it arranging a meeting of two lovers

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8f/Germans_and_Soviets2.jpg/250px-Germans_and_Soviets2.jpg
proove me they aren't sweet?



But i do not see any blaming US or Britain from the likes of you.. Strange, isn't it? It's Russian fault for all - provoking Hitler, division of Poland and so on..

Becouse they do not deny the past and fortunatelly have drawn conclusions from the past...


Strangely, how this topic again turned to Poland and pre-ww2 politics. People must be living in the past..

Becouse Russia didn't draw conclusions from the past and still lie.

[Mamont]

I can't help you... seems you're one of them. Your choice

So, no actual documents? Then we can conclude, that alliance is a delusion or wishfull thinking of russian haters/critics/else and common speculation in case of when no arguments left.

Interesting than how you evaluate polish relations with the Germany? The non-agression pact, economical treaty, representation and defence of german interests?

I humbly remind you, that you still didn't answer several questions.



Call it arranging a meeting of two lovers

Is this a flame bait or what? Well, i don't know who they are and their ******ity actually, so i must take you word for it. Hmm, maybe we should dig some polish and german lovers meetings? In former Chekoslovakia in 1938? No?



Becouse they do not deny the past and fortunatelly have drawn conclusions from the past...

:) Exellent. You made me smile..



Becouse Russia didn't draw conclusions from the past and still lie.

:) Funny again. Lie? No, it looks like someone has a torn in some plases where sun don't shine and didn't have the courage to pull it out and live on.. Every country has it's sceletons. So do not pretend only Russia has them.

[Switek]

So, no actual documents? Then we can conclude, that alliance is a delusion or wishfull thinking of russian haters/critics/else and common speculation in case of when no arguments left.

Interesting than how you evaluate polish relations with the Germany? The non-agression pact, economical treaty, representation and defence of german interests?

I humbly remind you, that you still didn't answer several questions.



Is this a flame bait or what? Well, i don't know who they are and their ******ity actually, so i must take you word for it. Hmm, maybe we should dig some polish and german lovers meetings? In former Chekoslovakia in 1938? No?


:) Exellent. You made me smile..



:) Funny again. Lie? No, it looks like someone has a torn in some plases where sun don't shine and didn't have the courage to pull it out and live on.. Every country has it's sceletons. So do not pretend only Russia has them.

Apply for opening Russian state archives...

[daily666]

Is this a flame bait or what? Well, i don't know who they are and their ******ity actually, so i must take you word for it. Hmm, maybe we should dig some polish and german lovers meetings? In former Chekoslovakia in 1938? No?

lol Even Czechs don't put that event as often as the Russians justifying their crimes. At least we don't deny the facts.

[kosse]

It's people like you who get raped in prison, idiot.
Prison? It's more likely that you end up in that orange jumpsuit if you ever try to apply your neonazi Ubermensch vision in real life.

[Mamont]

Apply for opening Russian state archives...

And?

Hmm, our little discussion shows, that you're ignoring some questions. Why?


lol Even Czechs don't put that event as often as the Russians justifying their crimes. At least we don't deny the facts.

Oh, did i justify something? I was merely mentioned some point in polish history. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Switek]

And?

Hmm, our little discussion shows, that you're ignoring some questions. Why?



Oh, did i justify something? I was merely mentioned some point in polish history. Nothing more, nothing less.

What question?

[Flamming_Python]

lol Even Czechs don't put that event as often as the Russians justifying their crimes. At least we don't deny the facts.

This is only the 2nd time I have ever heard of Polish-German co-operation in Czechoslovakia on this forum. You may not deny it, but to attack the former USSR for it's deeds while staying silent on your own is hypocracy.

I also do not deny that Germany and the USSR co-operated in cutting up Poland, no more so than I deny that Poland and Germany co-operated in taking slices out of Czechoslovakia. But not for a moment would I infer that in either of these situations, the above mentioned pairs of countries were allies.

[Switek]

This is only the 2nd time I have ever heard of Polish-German co-operation in Czechoslovakia on this forum. You may not deny it, but to attack the former USSR for it's deeds while staying silent on your own is hypocracy.

I also do not deny that Germany and the USSR co-operated in cutting up Poland, no more so than I deny that Poland and Germany co-operated in taking slices out of Czechoslovakia. But not for a moment would I infer that in either of these situations, the above mentioned pairs of countries were allies.

We seized some part of Czehoslovakia without signed any document with Third Reich. I could call it unfriendly use of situation (against Czechoslovakia) Anyway Poland monitored problems but acted independly.

So FP, you can not compare those two situations... :| regarding the fact that we didn't deported 1.200.000 Czechs and murdered 20.000 Czech officers, intelectuals, policemen and soldiers... It makes some difference desn't it?

[daily666]

This is only the 2nd time I have ever heard of Polish-German co-operation in Czechoslovakia on this forum. You may not deny it, but to attack the former USSR for it's deeds while staying silent on your own is hypocracy.

I also do not deny that Germany and the USSR co-operated in cutting up Poland, no more so than I deny that Poland and Germany co-operated in taking slices out of Czechoslovakia. But not for a moment would I infer that in either of these situations, the above mentioned pairs of countries were allies.

It's been brought up many times, and nobody denies that. It was a stupid move by the polish govt. by that time and I'm repeating myself now. It's very nice of you that you agree on the issue of USSR German cooperation but some of your countrymen don't. Again it was stupid to make that along with Nazis I agree and I (and many of my countrymen) feel sorry for that.

As an additional information, the part of Czech Rep. taken in 1938 was annexed by Poland following the Munich Conference. You have to remember it was retaken after Czechs moved in, while Poland was fighting with Red army in 1920.

[Flamming_Python]

We seized some part of Czehoslovakia without signed any document with Third Reich. I could call it unfriendly use of situation (against Czechoslovakia) Anyway Poland monitored problems but acted independly.

So FP, you can not compare those two situations... :|

I could say the same thing about USSR. The USSR invaded Poland after it's government had collapsed and the country was going to be annexed into Germany anyway (that's the "unfriendly use of situation"), taking areas that it had lost to Poland during a war 20 years earlier (which is ditto for the Poland-Czechoslovakia situation).

As for Molotov-Ribbentrop, this thread is the 1st time I heard of a non-aggression pact and economic deals between Nazi Germany and Poland, the very same things that the USSR has been accused and lambasted about. So of I went to do a little research, and discovered the existence of a non-aggression pact between Poland and Germany, concluded in 1934.

Please Switek I am not trying to attack you, Poland, or anyone else. I view the M-R pact as a shamefull action in the USSR's history, but people should have a balanced view of history.

[Switek]

I could say the same thing about USSR. The USSR invaded Poland after it's government had collapsed and the country was going to be annexed into Germany anyway (that's the "unfriendly use of situation"), taking areas that it had lost to Poland during a war 20 years earlier (which is ditto for the Poland-Czechoslovakia situation).

As for Molotov-Ribbentrop, this thread is the 1st time I heard of a non-aggression pact and economic deals between Nazi Germany and Poland, the very same things that the USSR has been accused and lambasted about. So of I went to do a little research, and discovered the existence of a non-aggression pact between Poland and Germany, concluded in 1934.

Please Switek I am not trying to attack you, Poland, or anyone else. I view the M-R pact as a shamefull action in the USSR's history, but people should have a balanced view of history.

we have balanced view... but we demand the truth... Nothing more. We do not deny deny shameful acts did by Poles. Look how many Russian members of mp.net differs in that matter (Soviet-Nazi aliance aka Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact).

[Flamming_Python]

we have balanced view... but we demand the truth... Nothing more. We do not deny deny shameful acts did by Poles. Look how many Russian members of mp.net differs in that matter (Soviet-Nazi aliance aka Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact).

My last 2 posts have been dedicated to trying to show that the USSR was no more an ally of Nazi Germany than Poland was, rather than trying to make you admit shame in your country's history.

As for the Russian members, I don't claim to speak for them. True I am Russian, but I am an individual and have my own beliefs, so please don't generalise me, and rather lets talk on a one-to-one level :)

[daily666]

we have balanced view... but we demand the truth... Nothing more. We do not deny deny shameful acts did by Poles. Look how many Russian members of mp.net differs in that matter (Soviet-Nazi aliance aka Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact).

Wow, we have agreed on something! Let's put it this way and finish off this conversation. After all this thread is about Estonian president leaving the monument...

[Switek]

Wow, we have agreed on something! Let's put it this way and finish off this conversation. After all this thread is about Estonian president leaving the monument...

Finally we did... I almost forget who started this debate. Full respect for independent decission of Estonian president!

[Switek]

My last 2 posts have been dedicated to trying to show that the USSR was no more an ally of Nazi Germany than Poland was, rather than trying to make you admit shame in your country's history.

As for the Russian members, I don't claim to speak for them. True I am Russian, but I am an individual and have my own beliefs, so please don't generalise me, and rather lets talk on a one-to-one level :)

You're right but this makes me wonder why the hell I can find some agreement only with those who thinks independly. woot

[Flamming_Python]

You're right but this makes me wonder why the hell I can find some agreement only with those who thinks independly. woot

More people think independently than you might suspect, or at least indepedently of the government. This applies in Russia as much as Poland.

For example, the Russian government took a decision a couple of years back, to get rid of the old holiday of the Russian revolution, and replace it with a holiday commemorating the Polish withdrawal from Moscow, 400 years ago.

Yet despite this (and any other aspects such as state-controlled TV, etc...), the overwhelming majority of people still have little knowledge of either this part of history, or give a damn about the significance of the new holiday.

However, when it comes to real life, say people in a group, many are naturally discouraged from thinking independently, although they may not realise it. In this case more of a 'collective' view of things develops, and this applies to every race, creed and nationality there is out there.

Often we can see it on this board, but I don't mean to imply that anyone here is lying about his or her opinion of things. It's just the sort of thing that develops unnoticably when you become one of the Russia STRONG!! or America HELL YEA! or the Polish Defenders of Democracy :D

[Mamont]

I could say the same thing about USSR. The USSR invaded Poland after it's government had collapsed and the country was going to be annexed into Germany anyway (that's the "unfriendly use of situation"), taking areas that it had lost to Poland during a war 20 years earlier (which is ditto for the Poland-Czechoslovakia situation).


x2. I can add, that all other Ussr moves such as including Baltic and so on were a direct answer to german moves in europe. Ussr may act later, but it's Germany, who triggered it at that time, and complete impotence of GB that made it possible. All other countries were just stagehands..


I view the M-R pact as a shamefull action in the USSR's history, but people should have a balanced view of history.
No, that was a timely and succesfull move, that ensured the existance of Soviet Union. All those aquired territories gave that precious little time that was needed to stop german onslaught in Ussr. If Germany was closer - the Blitzkrieg had a a much bigger possibility of success.

Switek, as you must surely know, constantly telling lie does not make it truth, so please stop telling nonsence about "alliance".

As for questions, it's not hard to look back at my several posts, so if you really intending to answer - please do.

I think we rather wandered far off from the main topic. Maybe we should stop it?

[Switek]

More people think independently than you might suspect, or at least indepedently of the government. This applies in Russia as much as Poland.

For example, the Russian government took a decision a couple of years back, to get rid of the old holiday of the Russian revolution, and replace it with a holiday commemorating the Polish withdrawal from Moscow, 400 years ago.

Yet despite this (and any other aspects such as state-controlled TV, etc...), the overwhelming majority of people still have little knowledge of either this part of history, or give a damn about the significance of the new holiday.

However, when it comes to real life, say people in a group, many are naturally discouraged from thinking independently, although they may not realise it. In this case more of a 'collective' view of things develops, and this applies to every race, creed and nationality there is out there.

Often we can see it on this board, but I don't mean to imply that anyone here is lying about his or her opinion of things. It's just the sort of thing that develops unnoticably when you become one of the Russia STRONG!! or America HELL YEA! or the Polish Defenders of Democracy :D

In one thing I fully agree. In hot disputes people go to the simplifications. That's norm. Most react in that way.

btw. I really do not worry about new Russian traditions and do not take so many things on mp.net world seriously... but you propably noticed that keeping some distance, what I call "civil manners" is a key for mutual recognition and eventually underestanding.

[Flamming_Python]

In one thing I fully agree. In hot disputes people go to the simplifications. That's norm. Most react in that way.

btw. I really do not worry about new Russian traditions and do not take so many things on mp.net world seriously... but you propably noticed that keeping some distance, what I call "civil manners" is a key for mutual recognition and eventually underestanding.

V.True about the simplifications.

The problem is our "understanding" seems to change with every new Poland-Russia problem that gets blown out of proportion :D

[daily666]

V.True about the simplifications.

The problem is our "understanding" seems to change with every new Poland-Russia problem that gets blown out of proportion :D

And indeed every one of the gets blown, by both sides.

[Smersh]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8f/Germans_and_Soviets2.jpg/250px-Germans_and_Soviets2.jpg
proove me they aren't sweet?

you guys play this card every thread, where the molotov-ribbentrop pact is mentioned. Yup, a picture of 2 soldiers talking is undeniable proof there was a military alliance. I can post a picture of Chamberlain with Hilter, and this means they where in an alliance too? Or Rumsfeld smiling and shaking hands with Saddam, that means alliance? No

Somehow 2 soldiers are supposed to represent their perspective nations, a talking and not being openly hostile is undeniable proof of military alliance. You put soldiers together of any nations, when their not in conflict their going to talk, exchange cigarettes etc.

Stop using this picture of as evidence, because its no evidence. Unless I can claim the Munich Agreement was also an alliance between Britain and Nazi Germany.

When I said earlier how these threads are always the same, I didn't know how right I would be. You guys don't remember the memorial removal thread a few weeks ago? which covered the exact same topics?

edit:
http://ivrpa.org/node/979

As you can see its a very unassuming memorial in a small park. Its not in the center of the city in any way, out in the open, in front of peoples faces... (except for those "protesters" of course). Its obvious the monument is meant for fallen soldiers, and doesn't glorify soviet rule.

[daily666]

you guys play this card every thread, where the molotov-ribbentrop pact is mentioned. Yup, a picture of 2 soldiers talking is undeniable proof there was a military alliance. I can post a picture of Chamberlain with Hilter, and this means they where in an alliance too? Or Rumsfeld smiling and shaking hands with Saddam, that means alliance? No

Somehow 2 soldiers are supposed to represent their perspective nations, a talking and not being openly hostile is undeniable proof of military alliance. You put soldiers together of any nations, when their not in conflict their going to talk, exchange cigarettes etc.

Stop using this picture of as evidence, because its no evidence. Unless I can claim the Munich Agreement was also an alliance between Britain and Nazi Germany.

When I said earlier how these threads are always the same, I didn't know how right I would be. You guys don't remember the memorial removal thread a few weeks ago? which covered the exact same topics?


Read what we've posted in the last 10 or so posts, there's no need for any more explanation. Not in this thread.

[Switek]

you guys play this card every thread, where the molotov-ribbentrop pact is mentioned. Yup, a picture of 2 soldiers talking is undeniable proof there was a military alliance. I can post a picture of Chamberlain with Hilter, and this means they where in an alliance too? Or Rumsfeld smiling and shaking hands with Saddam, that means alliance? No

Somehow 2 soldiers are supposed to represent their perspective nations, a talking and not being openly hostile is undeniable proof of military alliance. You put soldiers together of any nations, when their not in conflict their going to talk, exchange cigarettes etc.

Stop using this picture of as evidence, because its no evidence. Unless I can claim the Munich Agreement was also an alliance between Britain and Nazi Germany.

When I said earlier how these threads are always the same, I didn't know how right I would be. You guys don't remember the memorial removal thread a few weeks ago? which covered the exact same topics?

Ahhh again the same... I'm really sick to prove that division of Eastern Europe could happen between allies not enemies :cantbeli:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Ribbentrop-Molotov.PNG/750px-Ribbentrop-Molotov.PNG
Yes I drawed this map yesterday to prove that USSR was an "evil"

:cantbeli:

[Kilgor]

Smesh, maybe you missed the fact there are photocopies available online of both the pact and the trade pact too. ?

We could also mentioning the training of german tank forces on soviet soil to hide from the treaty of Versailles.

The fact is dear smesh, Hitler and Stalin divided up europe as they saw fit and then invaded for their spoils weeks later. IF you cant call this co-operation then your either in denial or a fool.

[daily666]

Smesh, maybe you missed the fact there are photocopies available online of both the pact and the trade pact too. ?

We could also mentioning the training of german tank forces on soviet soil to hide from the treaty of Versailles.

The fact is dear smesh, Hitler and Stalin divided up europe as they saw fit and then invaded for their spoils weeks later. IF you cant call this co-operation then your either in denial or a fool.


http://www.lituanus.org/1989/89_1_09.gif
http://www.lituanus.org/1989/89_1_10.gif

I've provided the Russian version. I think it's even called secret protocol.

[daily666]

I couldn't resist to post these:


The German Ambassador in the Soviet Union, (Schulenburg) to the German Foreign Office

Telegram

VERY URGENT
Moscow, September 10, 1939-9:40 p. m.

STRICTLY SECRET

No. 317 of September 10

Supplementing my telegram No. 310 of September 9 and with reference to telephone conversation of today with the Reich Foreign Minister.

In today's conference at 4 p. m. Molotov modified his statement of yesterday by saying that the Soviet Government was taken completely by surprise by the unexpectedly rapid German military successes. In accordance with our first communication, the Red Army had counted on several weeks, which had now shrunk to a few days. The Soviet military authorities were therefore in a difficult situation, since, in view of conditions here, they required possibly two to three weeks more for their preparations. Over three minion men were already mobilized.

I explained emphatically to Molotov how crucial speedy action of the Red Army was at this juncture.

Molotov repeated that everything possible was being done to expedite matters. I got the impression that Molotov promised more yesterday than the Red Army can live up to.

Then Molotov came to the political side of the matter and stated that the Soviet Government had intended to take the occasion of the further advance of German troops to declare that Poland was falling apart and that it was necessary for the Soviet Union, in consequence, to come to the aid of the Ukrainians and the White Russians "threatened" by Germany. This argument was to make the intervention of the Soviet Union plausible to the masses and at the same time avoid giving the Soviet Union the appearance of an aggressor.

This course was blocked for the Soviet Government by a DNB report yesterday to the effect that, in accordance with a statement by Colonel General Brauchitsch, military action was no longer necessary on the German eastern border. The report created the impression that a German-Polish armistice was imminent. If, however Germany concluded an armistice, the Soviet Union could not start a "new war."

I stated that I was unacquainted with this report, which was not in accordance with the facts. I would make inquiries at once.
SCHULENBURG



The German Ambassador in the Soviet Union (Schulenburg) to the German Foreign Office

Telegram

VERY URGENT

Moscow, September 14, 1939-6 p. m.

SECRET

No. 350 of September 14

Reference your telegram No. 336 of September 13.

Molotov summoned me today at 4 p. rm. and stated that the Red Arm had reached a state of preparedness sooner than anticipated. Soviet action could therefore take place sooner than he had assumed at our last conversation (see my telegram No. 317 of September 10). For the political motivation of Soviet action (the collapse of Poland and protection of Russian "minorities") it was of the greatest importance not to take action until the governmental center of Poland, the

Page 93

city of Warsaw, had fallen. Molotov therefore asked that he be informed as nearly as possible as to when the capture of Warsaw could be counted on.

Please send instructions.

I would direct your attention to today's article in Pravda, carried by DNB, which will be followed by a similar article in Izvestia tomorrow. The articles serve [to prepare] the political motivation mentioned by Molotov for Soviet intervention.

SCHULENBURG

[daily666]

this one is quite flattering to the non-allies theory:


The Reich Foreign Minister to the German Ambassador in the Soviet Union (Schulenburg)

Telegram

VERY URGENT

BERLIN, September 15, 1939-8:20 p. m.

Received MOSCOW, September 16, 1939-7:15 a. m.

STRICTLY SECRET

No. 360 of September 15

For the Ambassador personally.

I request that you communicate the following to Herr Molotov at once:

1) The destruction of the Polish Army is rapidly approaching its conclusion, as appears from the review of the military situation of September 14 which has already been communicated to you. We count on the occupation of Warsaw in the next few days.

2) We have already stated to the Soviet Government that we consider ourselves bound by the definition of spheres of influence agreed upon in Moscow, entirely apart from purely military operations, and the same applies of course to the future as well.

3) From the communication made to you by Molotov on September 14, we assume that the Soviet Government will take a hand militarily, and that it intends to begin its operation now. We welcome this. The Soviet Government thus relieves us of the necessity of annihilating the remainder of the Polish Army by pursuing it as far as the Russian boundary. Also the question is disposed of in case a Russian intervention did not take place, of whether in the area lying to the east of the German zone of influence a political vacuum might not occur. Since we on our part have no intention of undertaking any political or administrative activities in these areas, apart from what is made

Page 94

necessary by military operations, without such an intervention on the part of the Soviet Government there might be the possibility of the construction of new states there.

4) For the political support of the advance of the Soviet Army we propose the publication of a joint communiqué of the following content:

"In view of the complete collapse of the previous form of government in Poland, the Reich Government and the Government of the U.S.S.R. consider it necessary to bring to an end the intolerable political and economic conditions existing in these territories. They regard it as their joint duty to restore peace and order in these areas which are naturally of interest to them and to bring about a new order by the creation of natural frontiers and viable economic organizations."
5) We assume in proposing such a communiqué that the Soviet Government has already given up the idea, expressed by Molotov in an earlier conversation with you, of taking the threat to the Ukrainian and White Russian populations by Germany as a ground for Soviet action. The assignment of a motive of that sort would be out of the question in practice. It would be directly contrary to the true German intentions, which are confined exclusively to the realization of well-known German spheres of interest. It would also be in contradiction to the arrangements made in Moscow and, finally, would-in opposition to the desire for friendly relations expressed on both sides expose the two States before the whole world as enemies.

6) Since the military operations must be concluded as soon as possible because of the advanced season of the year, we would be gratified if the Soviet Government would set a day and hour on which their army would begin their advance, so that we on our part might govern ourselves accordingly. For the purpose of the necessary coordination of military operations on either side, it is also necessary that a representative of each Government, as well as German and Russian officers on the spot in the area of operations, should have a meeting in order to take the necessary steps, for which meeting we propose to assemble at Bialystok by air.

I request an immediate reply by telegraph. The change in text agreed upon by Gaus with Hilger has already been taken care of.

RIBBENTROP

[Smersh]

Read what we've posted in the last 10 or so posts, there's no need for any more explanation. Not in this thread. Sorry, I just saw that same overly used picture again and posted without reading the other posts.

Trade and non-agression means a miliary alliance? Like I said Coca Cola continued to do business with Nazi Germany even during the war. The USA did business with Germany before the war as well.

Training of german tank crews in the Soviet Union, when was this the early 30s? Thats proof of military alliance?

The Munich agreement divided up Czechoslavakia. this is proof of alliance?
There are dozens of soviet posters of this area, depicting Hitler as a evil wolf, a gorillia etc. proposals by the Soviet Union to stop nazi expansion. Talk of interfering in czecoslavkaian occupation. popular-fronts against facism etc. and numerous other calls against nazi german agression. That is not evidence of two nations in an alliance.

why is it that a thread about Estonia and the memorial, winds up a discussion about Poland in 1939?

[Switek]

Sorry, I just saw that same overly used picture again and posted without reading the other posts.

Trade and non-agression means a miliary alliance? Like I said Coca Cola continued to do business with Nazi Germany even during the war. The USA did business with Germany before the war as well.

Training of german tank crews in the Soviet Union, when was this the early 30s? Thats proof of military alliance?

The Munich agreement divided up Czechoslavakia. this is proof of alliance?
There are dozens of soviet posters of this area, depicting Hitler as a evil wolf, a gorillia etc. proposals by the Soviet Union to stop nazi expansion. Talk of interfering in czecoslavkaian occupation. popular-fronts against facism etc. and numerous other calls against nazi german agression. That is not evidence of two nations in an alliance.

In Nazi-Soviet case it was a very productive alliance regardles agreement form (names of documents) signed. Don't pay attention on internal propaganda but political effects

[Kilgor]

The Munich agreement divided up Czechoslavakia. this is proof of alliance?
There are dozens of soviet posters of this area, depicting Hitler as a evil wolf, a gorillia etc. proposals by the Soviet Union to stop nazi expansion. Talk of interfering in czecoslavkaian occupation. popular-fronts against facism etc. and numerous other calls against nazi german agression. That is not evidence of two nations in an alliance.

Glad you touched on that.

As soon as the alliance was signed, stalin stopped all negative press in his newspapers of the germans. People were actually put in jail and the gulag for making negative comments on the germans.

[daily666]

Sorry, I just saw that same overly used picture again and posted without reading the other posts.

Trade and non-agression means a miliary alliance? Like I said Coca Cola continued to do business with Nazi Germany even during the war. The USA did business with Germany before the war as well.

Training of german tank crews in the Soviet Union, when was this the early 30s? Thats proof of military alliance?


Jesus Smersh, please they (IIIrd Reich and USSR) cooperated as hell, as close as UK and USA while invading Iraq, it was an alliance. Nothing more nothing less.

One more transcript:


The German Ambassador in the Soviet Union (Schulenburg) to the German Foreign Office

Telegram

VERY URGENT

Moscow, September 17, 1939.

SECRET

No. 372 of September 17

Reference my telegram No. 371 of September 16.

Stalin received me at 2 o'clock at night in the presence of Molotov and Voroshilov and declared that the Red Army would cross the Soviet border this morning at 6 o'clock along the whole line from Polozk to Kamenetz-Podolsk.

In order to avoid incidents, Stalin urgently requested that we see to it that German planes as of today do not fly east of the Bialystok-Brest-Litovsk-Lemberg Line. Soviet planes would begin today to bomb the district east of Lemberg.

I promised to do my best with regard to informing the German Air Force but asked in view of the little time left that Soviet planes not approach the above-mentioned line too closely today.

The Soviet commission will arrive in Bialystok tomorrow or day after tomorrow at the latest.

Stalin read me a note that is to be handed to the Polish Ambassador tonight, to be sent in copy to all the missions in the course of the day and then published. The note contains a justification for the Soviet action. The draft read to me contained three points unacceptable to us. In answer to my objections, Stalin with the utmost readiness so altered the text that the note now seems satisfactory for us. Stalin stated that the issuance of a German-Soviet communiqué could not be considered before two or three days.

In future all military matters that come up are to be handled by Lieutenant General Köstring directly with Voroshilov.

SCHULENBURG

Please read those:http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/nsr/nsr-03.html#4

It's bloody interesting factual read.


]The Munich agreement divided up Czechoslavakia. this is proof of alliance?
There are dozens of soviet posters of this area, depicting Hitler as a evil wolf, a gorillia etc. proposals by the Soviet Union to stop nazi expansion. Talk of interfering in czecoslavkaian occupation. popular-fronts against facism etc. and numerous other calls against nazi german agression. That is not evidence of two nations in an alliance.

Ok, here's another one about this issue:


The German Ambassador in the Soviet Union (Schulenburg) to the German Foreign Office

Telegram

Pol. V 8924

Moscow, September 6, 1939-5:46 p. m.

Received September 6, 1939-8:15 p. m.

No. 279 of September 6

Reference your telegram No. 267 of the 5th. [39]

Since anxiety over war, especially the fear of a German attack, has strongly influenced the attitude of the population here in the last few years, the conclusion of a non-aggression pact with Germany has been generally received with great relief and gratification. However, the sudden alteration in the policy of the Soviet Government, after years of propaganda directed expressly against German aggressors, is still not very well understood by the population. Especially the statements of official agitators to the effect that Germany is no longer an aggressor run up against considerable doubt. The Soviet Government is doing everything to change the attitude of the population here toward Germany. The press is as though it had been transformed. Attacks on the conduct of Germany have not only ceased completely, but the portrayal of events in the field of foreign politics is based to an outstanding degree on German reports and anti-German literature has been removed from the book trade, etc.

The beginning of the war between Germany and Poland has powerfully affected public opinion here, and aroused new fear in extensive groups that the Soviet Union may be drawn into the war. Mistrust sown for years against Germany, in spite of effective counter-propaganda which is being carried on in party and business gatherings, cannot be so quickly removed. The fear is expressed by the population

[39] Not printed. ([38] not used? LWJ)

Page 89

that Germany, after she has defeated Poland, may turn against the Soviet Union. The recollection of German strength in the World War is everywhere still lively.

In a judgment of conditions here the realization is of importance that the Soviet Government has always previously been able in a masterly fashion to influence the attitude of the population in the direction which it has desired, and it is not being sparing this time either of the necessary propaganda.

SCHULENBURG

[50pushman]

Prison? It's more likely that you end up in that orange jumpsuit if you ever try to apply your neonazi Ubermensch vision in real life.

Ah your grandfather probably earned the title neonazi ubermensch by collaborating with the fascists, my finnish buddy. Don't project your insecurities on me. Enough with this off-topic.

[lightfire]

this thread, as many alike is doomed from the beggining. I don't know if there's any chance to disscuss with Soviet fanboys-brainwashing has done it's jog long ago, they deny any proofs,facts blindlly whatsoever, the same like holocaust denyers. It's just hopeless.
As for presidents decission,it looks like he's trying to soften the situation, while from first look,standing on russian side,I think in reality he's trying mediate. This thing has gone too far, it should have been municipality buisness, and country's where this monument is, buisness. But politics makes it all-atract soviet fanboys and impatient hotshots,giving more fuel to the matter.

[Mamont]

Hmm. It is starting to get boring with all those comments.
People starting to get strong visions of what never happened.. Alliance is one of them..

From those delirious points of view we can assume US and Iraq were allies, same for Poland and Germany, Britain and Italy and so on and so on. Even now from this point of view Poland is an ally of Russia.

Strangely, why the need to make up facts, that never happened, or name one thing for the other?

[LEGEND]

The time feels about right for a gas pipeline accident on the russian side... February temperatures should help to cool down all these ubernationalistic ideas.

[daily666]

The time feels about right for a gas pipeline accident on the russian side... February temperatures should help to cool down all these ubernationalistic ideas.

I wasn't expecting such a stupid comment from you.


Strangely, why the need to make up facts, that never happened, or name one thing for the other?

We don't make up facts. It's you who deny them. Do you want more transcritps from the Russian side that Stalin and Molotov actually cooperated closely with Hiler and Ribbentrop during the Invasion of Poland and the Baltics?

[Rumcajs]

It's been brought up many times, and nobody denies that. It was a stupid move by the polish govt. by that time and I'm repeating myself now. It's very nice of you that you agree on the issue of USSR German cooperation but some of your countrymen don't. Again it was stupid to make that along with Nazis I agree and I (and many of my countrymen) feel sorry for that.

As an additional information, the part of Czech Rep. taken in 1938 was annexed by Poland following the Munich Conference. You have to remember it was retaken after Czechs moved in, while Poland was fighting with Red army in 1920.

Sorry mate no "was retaken", the Těšín area was and is the Czech area since the 9th century. In 1920 gen Latinik and his chiefs tried to rob this area, gen Latink was defeated by gen Šnejdárek but unfortunatelly Poland got half the Těšín dukedom due to Alies conference resolution. In 1938 Polish government seized the second half of the Czech area, but after WW2 had to return the half from 1921.

[daily666]

Sorry mate no "was retaken", the Těšín area was and is the Czech area since the 9th century. In 1920 gen Latinik and his chiefs tried to rob this area, gen Latink was defeated by gen Šnejdárek but unfortunatelly Poland got half the Těšín dukedom due to Alies conference resolution. In 1938 Polish government seized the second half of the Czech area, but after WW2 had to return the half from 1921. So two historical Czech areas - Kladsko and half of Těšín dukedom is still in Poland now, but nobody care about that..

I knew Tesin/Cieszyn was Czech. The problem is that this area was taken by both sides in 1919 but than the polish part was taken by the Czechs in 1920. In 1938 Polish forces joined again that's why I said it was "retaken". What we know is that even the Polish population of that are didn't like that action in the long term. Now it's devided as Cieszyn/Teski Tesin, but it's a eurocity now and people move freely around buy stuff and real estates. A good thing of being in EU.

I don't know if it's accurate but here's wiki article on that issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie

By Kladsko you mean Klodzko? But it's nowhere near Tesin/Cieszyn.

Rumcajs if you want to discuss the matter please send a PM this thread doesn't need a historical discussion on a Polish - Czech dispute.

[Mamont]

We don't make up facts. It's you who deny them.
:) It is as i wrote. You starting to imagine things. I haven't denied any facts.
Alliance is no fact. It's an preoccupied assumption with no documental evidence. If you don't understand - cooperation is not an alliance, simple as that.



Do you want more transcritps from the Russian side that Stalin and Molotov actually cooperated closely with Hiler and Ribbentrop during the Invasion of Poland and the Baltics?
And what? You better read how Poland cooperated with Germany and what polish plans were against SU.

[LEGEND]

I wasn't expecting such a stupid comment from you.



Well to me its very upsetting what Estonians are trying to do. This thread is very much offtopic now, the monument is not a commnuist monument, its a monument to fallen soldiers which fought to defeat an evil nazist empire. As a matter of fact those soldiers might have been anticommunist for all i know. My grandfathers fought in WW2 and both hated communism. You are from Poland, polish regiments fought alongside soviet regiments, were they die hard commies? To me what Estonians are doing now seems just like an idiotic attempt to piss off Russia and bring the relations to below negative.

[daily666]

:) It is as i wrote. You starting to imagine things. I haven't denied any facts.
Alliance is no fact. It's an preoccupied assumption with no documental evidence. If you don't understand - cooperation is not an alliance, simple as that.

Cooperation. Ok fine with me. As I said it's all a matter of semantics. USSR cooperated with Germany on invading Poland.



And what? You better read how Poland cooperated with Germany and what polish plans were against SU.

Did Poland attack SU along with Germany? No. I think I've heard something about that, that Hitler proposed such thing to the Polish govt. but we (as a matter of fact) rejected that proposal. So he went to Moscow...

[daily666]

Well to me its very upsetting what Estonians are trying to do. This thread is very much offtopic now, the monument is not a commnuist monument, its a monument to fallen soldiers which fought to defeat an evil nazist empire. As a matter of fact those soldiers might have been anticommunist for all i know. My grandfathers fought in WW2 and both hated communism. You are from Poland, polish regiments fought alongside soviet regiments, were they die hard commies? To me what Estonians are doing now seems just like an idiotic attempt to piss off Russia and bring the relations to below negative.

But this thread is about the monument that will stay. As you mentioned, my grandfather was fighting within a Polish Army in the USSR, that means he fought alongside soviet soldiers. No they were not commies, most of them didn't even understand what communism was. Simple people. I respect that.

[LEGEND]

But this thread is about the monument that will stay. As you mentioned, my grandfather was fighting within a Polish Army in the USSR, that means he fought alongside soviet soldiers. No they were not commies, most of them didn't even understand what communism was. Simple people. I respect that.

They did understand what communism was quite well... One barely survived through the great famine in Ukraine with his sisters being swallen from lack of food. Another grandfather's family farm was taken away by commies and they were thrown out of their house. The fact is they both went to fight Nazis, they did not go to fight to defend communism, they went to defend their motherland from Nazi scum that was so low that they were robbing the nation of everything even earth itself was being removed and shipped to germany. My grandma's brother is still listed as MIA, he left to fight when he was 18... My grandfather's uncle was also thrown out from his property and his farm "collectevized" yet his 7 sons went to fight nazist and none of them came back, kind of makes "saving private ryan" pale in comparison. And now a monument to those heroes and their remains are going to be desecrated. How do you want me to react to this? This topic has NOTHING TO DO WITH COMMUNISM or stalin's pacts.

[Rumcajs]

I knew Tesin/Cieszyn was Czech. The problem is that this area was taken by both sides in 1919 but than the polish part was taken by the Czechs in 1920. In 1938 Polish forces joined again that's why I said it was "retaken". What we know is that even the Polish population of that are didn't like that action in the long term. Now it's devided as Cieszyn/Teski Tesin, but it's a eurocity now and people move freely around buy stuff and real estates. A good thing of being in EU.

I don't know if it's accurate but here's wiki article on that issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie

By Kladsko you mean Klodzko? But it's nowhere near Tesin/Cieszyn.

Rumcajs if you want to discuss the matter please send a PM this thread doesn't need a historical discussion on a Polish - Czech dispute.

Polish part of Těšín dukedom have never exist:-))) up to 1920 Alies conference resolution:-))) just historical fact, I don´t care about that:-)))
for example see this map of Czech state from 1747/1748, you can see whole Těšín dukedom area as a part of Czech Silesia-integral part of Czech State (even not as a part of Great Silesia what was the part of Czech Kingdom since only since 1322 to 1756). Yes Klodzko, in Czech Kladsko - it was Czech area since 9th century in 1756 seized by Prussians:-))
http://www.oaiss.cz/staremapy/full/1747-22.jpg

or this from about 1906 (orange Czech Silesia, yellow Moravia, red Czechia)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/B%C3%B6hmen_M%C3%A4hren_%C3%96sterreich_Schlesien.jpg

just only specifing:-)))

[Mamont]

Cooperation. Ok fine with me. As I said it's all a matter of semantics. USSR cooperated with Germany on invading Poland.

:) Wasn't that hard, was it? And semantics is very importand in such matters. At this level of importancy lawyer's existance could be justified.



Did Poland attack SU along with Germany? No.

History knows no "what if's", but as i remember, some prof. Pavel Veczorkevich(?) said not so long ago that "we(Poland) could find our place alongside Germany, probaly the same place as Italy, and surely better than Hungary and Romania. And in the end we could be in Moscow, where Hitler and Ridz-Smigly would observe the parade of victorious polish-german forces".



I think I've heard something about that, that Hitler proposed such thing to the Polish govt. but we (as a matter of fact) rejected that proposal. So he went to Moscow...
Never heard of it and doubt it happened despite polish-german relations. Such proposal could be brought no farther 1938 year because of worsening relations, and at that time Germany was not ready for such scale. There were fact, that Poland didn't give permission to SU to allow soviet troops cross it's territory to help Chechoslovakia(there were a treaty betweet CS-SU about mutual assistance).


This topic has NOTHING TO DO WITH COMMUNISM or stalin's pacts.
Indeed. Sadly Thor and Switek hijacked the thread with their mission to humiliate Russia..

[RomanS]

My dear Russian friends.
Maybe its enough of arguying with a bunch of people who are trying to force you into some kind of appology, denial, aknowledge of some kind of defeat, and silly blamings while their closets are full of sceletons.

Who cares what they think. Im starting to understand wise advises a few valuable/respected Russian mp.net memmbers gave me.

History is always offensive to some, and brutal to others. Thats just the way our life is.

What was done in the past, was done in the "past". There is no fukin way my generation will be appologyzing to ANYONE. And that comes from some of my friends that serve in a few respectable places.

Stop explaining yourselves to them. Little dogs bark, life goes on.

[Mamont]

My dear Russian friends.
Maybe its enough of arguying with a bunch of people who are trying to force you into some kind of appology, denial, aknowledge of some kind of defeat, and silly blamings while their closets are full of sceletons.

Who cares what they think. Im starting to understand wise advises a few valuable/respected Russian mp.net memmbers gave me.

History is always offensive to some, and brutal to others. Thats just the way our life is.

What was done in the past, was done in the "past". There is no fukin way my generation will be appologyzing to ANYONE. And that comes from some of my friends that serve in a few respectable places.

Stop explaining yourselves to them. Little dogs bark, life goes on.

As much as i want to agree, but there are some issues. If they remain at large some kids actually might believe in all that stuff they constantly writing.
So alittle other interpretation and point of view is needed..

[RomanS]

As much as i want to agree, but there are some issues. If they remain at large some kids actually might believe in all that stuff they constantly writing.
So alittle other interpretation and point of view is needed..

Whos kids?

[kosse]

Ah your grandfather probably earned the title neonazi ubermensch by collaborating with the fascists, my finnish buddy. Don't project your insecurities on me. Enough with this off-topic.
What has my grandfather have to do with this? I thought you were the one with the racial/ethnic superiority ideals. Here's a reminder:


Exactly. In the real world there are no morals. It's the law of the jungle, the survival of the strongest.

You need to decide if you want to be some kind of ethnic supremacist or else cut that crap.

[kosse]

What was done in the past, was done in the "past". There is no fukin way my generation will be appologyzing to ANYONE. And that comes from some of my friends that serve in a few respectable places.

Nobody is asking for apologies, only to acknowledge the historical facts.

[daily666]

My dear Russian friends.
Maybe its enough of arguying with a bunch of people who are trying to force you into some kind of appology, denial, aknowledge of some kind of defeat, and silly blamings while their closets are full of sceletons.

Who cares what they think. Im starting to understand wise advises a few valuable/respected Russian mp.net memmbers gave me.

History is always offensive to some, and brutal to others. Thats just the way our life is.

What was done in the past, was done in the "past". There is no fukin way my generation will be appologyzing to ANYONE. And that comes from some of my friends that serve in a few respectable places.

Stop explaining yourselves to them. Little dogs bark, life goes on.

Dear Roman. Your input to this thread is greatly welcome. Next time give us some more than a good deal of truisms.

Honestly I agree with you with one point you've written. Partially. It's not to up to us to apologize for what our ancestors did to themselves in the past. But I share respect for history and facts, I do like to discuss about it and don't want them to be shown in a distorted way, just like the Jews don't like the Holocaust denial. As you see we did dare to come agree on things with some of the Russian friends here, so it's possible, as long as we keep the civil manner no harm is done to anyone.

Regards.

[RomanS]

Dear Roman. Your input to this thread is greatly welcome. Next time give us some more than a good deal of truisms.

Honestly I agree with you with one point you've written. Partially. It's not to up to us to apologize for what our ancestors did to themselves in the past. But I share respect for history and facts, I do like to discuss about it and don't want them to be shown in a distorted way, just like the Jews don't like the Holocaust denial. As you see we did dare to come agree on things with some of the Russian friends here, so it's possible, as long as we keep the civil manner no harm is done to anyone.

Regards.

Neither you or me know the history, and what is happening in this thread HARDLY QUALIFIES for historical accuracy.

Each country, each nation, each culture believes in their own "HISTORY"

What we really need, which should be universal is "MOVE THE FUK ON"

there is no accurate history unless pens and typewriters have their own mind.

[daily666]

Neither you or me know the history, and what is happening in this thread HARDLY QUALIFIES for historical accuracy.

Disagree totally. This thread NEEDS historical accuracy for people to understand why the hell a president of an independend country needs to intervene on an issue of some kind of a monument. Withought the look thrugh the historical facts man wouldn't understand a thing from it. I'm not responsible of getting this thread into another Russian -Polish argumentation but the pacts issue also involves Estonia.


Each country, each nation, each culture believes in their own "HISTORY"

Which is a background of most of the conflicts. Look what's going on in the middle east. The Israeli version of history is hardly the same as Iranian or Saudi Arabian. At least we're civilised enought to talk about the differences.


there is no accurate history unless pens and typewriters have their own mind.

No, some facts are undeniable and not ****e to propaganda.

Cheers.

[Switek]

Neither you or me know the history, and what is happening in this thread HARDLY QUALIFIES for historical accuracy.

Each country, each nation, each culture believes in their own "HISTORY"

What we really need, which should be universal is "MOVE THE FUK ON"

there is no accurate history unless pens and typewriters have their own mind.


" Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. "

George Orwell, 1984

There is no Russian, US, German Chinese or whoever history. History is one we can differ in interpretations. Russia is a country which closed their arhives not to prevent Russia against westerners but to stop their own citizens to know the thruth. Russian ca run away from many difficult questions but this a way to nowhere.

Have a nice Sunday!

[Mamont]

It's bad Russia again. And Orwell too. Similar actions by another countries(those that Poland is looking up to) are of course left aside. Interesing, all archive of Poland are now accessible?

What situation is now with that famous Goebbels archive, that was kept in secret from 1953?

[Switek]

It's bad Russia again. And Orwell too. Similar actions by another countries(those that Poland is looking up to) are of course left aside. Interesing, all archive of Poland are now accessible?

What situation is now with that famous Goebbels archive, that was kept in secret from 1953?

I've never heard about any researcher's or journalist's complaints about Polish archives.

[Mamont]

I've never heard about any researcher's or journalist's complaints about Polish archives.

Hmm, i've never heard any researcher's or journalist's complaints about archives in Zimbabve too. But i asked not about complains, do i?

[Switek]

Hmm, i've never heard any researcher's or journalist's complaints about archives in Zimbabve too. But i asked not about complains, do i?

so draw conclusions from my post... They are accessible...

[Mamont]

so draw conclusions from my post... They are accessible...

Great. But you know, russian archives are accesible too..

[Switek]

Great. But you know, russian archives are accesible too..

No you're wrong. Poles and institutions which want to get info about soviet crimes against Poles can't get required access...

[Mamont]

No you're wrong. Poles and institutions which want to get info about soviet crimes against Poles can't get required access...

It's their problem.

[Switek]

It's their problem.

So, stop your doublethink...


Great. But you know, russian archives are accesible too..


:cantbeli:

[Mamont]

So, stop your doublethink...

Switek, i see you don't understand and that crusade of yours starting to affect your thinking. Russian archives are open, there are _tons_ of works about soviet goverment, nkvd, army, ... deeds, with numbers, names, places, vagons, .... . If polish side cannot access archives - it's their problem, not archive's.

[Huhtis]

Exactly!
If I were Russia (Me, a country!?) Why should I open my archives to some country that is always whining about my country?

[Switek]

Exactly!
If I were Russia (Me, a country!?) Why should I open my archives to some country that is always whining about my country?

Country which have a clean slate opens archives and thus can stop complaints... simple!

btw. You live in a country where transparency is a key for mutual underestanding. Dosent' you? So I really do not get your point

[Switek]

Switek, i see you don't understand and that crusade of yours starting to affect your thinking. Russian archives are open, there are _tons_ of works about soviet goverment, nkvd, army, ... deeds, with numbers, names, places, vagons, .... . If polish side cannot access archives - it's their problem, not archive's.

It's a problem of double standards... you can get only those documents which are convenient and siuts to our vision of history... Archives and documents are key to know the facts and find mutual underestanding.

[Mamont]

It's a problem of double standards... you can get only those documents which are convenient and siuts to our vision of history...
What? I see that i was right about your crusade and it's consequences.. My vision of history - hilarious. :)



Archives and documents are key to know the facts and find mutual underestanding.
Yeah, tell this to Poland's Institute of national memory.

[Switek]

What? I see that i was right about your crusade and it's consequences.. My vision of history - hilarious. :)


Yeah, tell this to Poland's Institute of national memory.

We owe to those who were murdered becouse one crime they "made" - they born Poles, on thing - the truth. Nothing more.

We owe the same to those who were killed from Polish hands, whatever their motivatons were. Poland can face their history whatever happened. This makes us different than you.

[Lazarou]

Put a halt to the Russo-Polish **** swinging contest and get back on topic.

[daily666]

To be honest Switek there are more closed historical archives in UK than in Russia. The funny part is that the official Russian archive oppose some of the statements posted here by some Russians ;)



Put a halt to the Russo-Polish **** swinging contest and get back on topic.

I agree. It's nonsense.

[Xaito]

russian archives are accesible thats a fact - but its a privilege to access them not a right.
If some poles don't get access because their only goal is to throw some dirt on russia its their problem - If I had a library I'd throw out people with the intention to harm me too.

@daily666 - western history can be just as biased as russian or anybody's else.
Take the bombings of Dresden in WW2 for example - western historians seriously try to tell there were roundabout 30000 dead people... in a city like Dresden with millions of people plus over 200000 refugees - they bombed the city to **** and people who were there report that the sky was full with bombers and it was so hot from the bombings that in some places glass melted etc. - Germany (at that time) and Sovjet Union both said there were over 300000 dead people.
Now ho do we believe? Nazi Germany - they must have lied! Soviet Union - they too (what reason would they have at that time to lie? ah whatever they lied!). Oh - the allied who actually did it say its only 30k dead people - now what reason would they have to lie, right?
The brits bombed Dresden and it were 30k dead people - if Soviet Union would have bombed it historians would try to make 3 million dead people out of it I'm sure.
Believe what you want - I believe what I want - just dont try to tell me your f*cking version of history is the truth.

[daily666]

russian archives are accesible thats a fact - but its a privilege to access them not a right.
If some poles don't get access because their only goal is to throw some dirt on russia its their problem - If I had a library I'd throw out people with the intention to harm me too.

@daily666 - western history can be just as biased as russian or anybody's else.
Take the bombings of Dresden in WW2 for example - western historians seriously try to tell there were roundabout 30000 dead people... in a city like Dresden with millions of people plus over 200000 refugees - they bombed the city to **** and people who were there report that the sky was full with bombers and it was so hot from the bombings that in some places glass melted etc. - Germany (at that time) and Sovjet Union both said there were over 300000 dead people.
Now ho do we believe? Nazi Germany - they must have lied! Soviet Union - they too (what reason would they have at that time to lie? ah whatever they lied!). Oh - the allied who actually did it say its only 30k dead people - now what reason would they have to lie, right?
The brits bombed Dresden and it were 30k dead people - if Soviet Union would have bombed it historians would try to make 3 million dead people out of it I'm sure.
Believe what you want - I believe what I want - just dont try to tell me your f*cking version of history is the truth.

I don't know why are you offensive? Some of you try to point out that we force you to approve history as we put it, but than if you actually believe that the WWII was caused by green fellas from mars, it's your right. However if you say that discussion on historical events is unacceptable, follow RomanS advice and don't post at all.

Dresden was bombed, thousands of people died, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima too (even more people died there). But hold on a minute, was that the UK or USA that actually started the war? A total war where civilian population was the main usually the main target? Germany paid the price, harsh I agree. The people of Russia paid even bigger price for Stalins mistakes and misjudgements (11 million civilians died due to Nazi attack on USSR I remind you). Do I have to add that due to Soviet, Czech and Polish policy (an execution of the Yalta pact) thousands of Germans lost their property or lifes right after ther war.

The Dresden bombings:


Earlier reputable estimates varied from 25,000 to more than 60,000, but historians now view around 25,000–35,000 as the likely range with the latest (1994) research by the Dresden historian Friedrich Reichert pointing toward the lower part of this range.

So it was not the allies who point out at 30.000. You failed.


There have been higher estimates for the number of dead, ranging as high as 300,000. They are from disputed and unreliable sources, such as the Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda headed by Joseph Goebbels, Soviet historians, and David Irving, the once popular but now discredited self-styled 'historian'[29] who retracted his higher estimates.

You choose who do you believe? Goebbels and Stalins propaganda or a German historian.

[Xaito]

You choose who do you believe? Goebbels and Stalins propaganda or a German historian.
I believe the german historian no more and no less then I believe any european historian but if a story stinks I tend to believe the more realistic version.
Beeing a german historian is nothing special btw. I could become one too (and thats no joke - history seems not to be very popular so we have lots of free places in our unis :P ) - would you believe me everything I told you ? ;)

Btw there you go again Goebbels and Stalins propaganda and the truth of western historians... if you choose to not believe 2 out of 3 sources youre left with a very one-sided view on history - especially since Dresden was basically bombed for no good reason and some people like to call it a warcrime the allied had no reason to play it down right? As you said Germany (thinks it) is in no position to complain - that goes for our view on history as well - we have accepted the version of history that the allies wrote for us - but in a war the winner always writes the history right?

[daily666]

...............<cut>As you said Germany (thinks it) is in no position to complain - that goes for our view on history as well - we have accepted the version of history that the allies wrote for us - but in a war the winner always writes the history right?

Agreed. I've said that many times on this forum, the winners write history. :D

[Xaito]

Agreed. I've said that many times on this forum, the winners write history. :D

right - I think we also can agree that he writes it the way he sees fit which may but doesnt have to necessarily be how it really happened.
And I think we can leave it at that.

[50pushman]

What has my grandfather have to do with this? I thought you were the one with the racial/ethnic superiority ideals. Here's a reminder:



You need to decide if you want to be some kind of ethnic supremacist or else cut that crap.

I'm not a Russian sucpremascist at all. You foolish boy attacking me for racism, you don't know ****. Eh, I'm not going even to argue with you.

Although sometimes I have a feeling that genetical degeneration took part in the northern parts of Europe when talking to people like you. Wicked tribes from the north should be reigned by force, Communist iron fist is the only way for you.

[tyovan]

You say:

I'm not a Russian sucpremascist at all


but then you follow up and say:

I have a feeling that genetical degeneration took part in the northern parts of Europe when talking to people like you. Wicked tribes from the north should be reigned by force, Communist iron fist is the only way for you.

If that doesn't qualify as talking like a Russian supremacist, what does??

[Herrmannek]

I'm sorry for Estonians because of their president... If I would be one of them I would start new "secular tradition" to bring hammer with you to the place and chip off small piece of the monument, after not more than half month problem would solve itself...

[Xaito]

I'm sorry for Estonians because of their president... If I would be one of them I would start new "secular tradition" to bring hammer with you to the place and chip off small piece of the monument, after not more than half month problem would solve itself...

you seem to be one of the guys who would desecrate a grave just because the guy who lies there had different beliefs then you - thats sad.

[Herrmannek]

you seem to be one of the guys who would desecrate a grave just because the guy who lies there had different beliefs then you - thats sad.
We are not talking about grave. Do we? And I don't propose desecration but deconstruction, piece after piece...

[Xaito]

We are not talking about grave. Do we? And I don't propose desecration but deconstruction, piece after piece...

yes we do - iirc the guy the statue is modeled after is burried underneath it - and if what you propose is not desecration then what is?

[Switek]

If Estonians want to remove the monument they will do it. I guess that a "construction comission" will find some technical reasons to do that... (good tactics ;))

[Corsar]

I'll try to bring the thread back to it's initial topic.
I shall enlight generally, that The President of Estonia declared The Removal of Prohibited Structures Act is in conflict with the Constitution. “I believe that today’s unconstitutional decision in the Riigikogu /Estonian Parliament/was a result of the tense pre-election atmosphere, not the desire to challenge the legal order of the Republic of Estonia.", said The President.
There is no need to be sorry for Estonian President, who wants to be as correct as possible unlike these forces who erected this monument not to memorise the victims of WW2 but glorify the occupation of Estonia, and they gave a s*** of any constitution.
Also Estonian President said: "“I repeat once more that the memory of those who perished during the war must be honored and military graves cannot be treated as ordinary politics. I condemn all attempts to glorify or justify the activities of the Soviet Union that occupied Estonia under the pretext of commemorating victims of the war.”

Link -
http://www.president.ee/en/duties/press_releases.php
Use the original source of information not interpretations :)

According to the article of the first comment (BBC) I have a question - how to name or categorize the group of people who entering or habitate some country without legitime entrance certificate or permit? In USA the people coming from Mexico illegally called "illegal immigrants", so do in Europe (people from Africa for instance). By the article you could get an impression like for Estonia illegal group of people (came to Estonia during Soviet occupation without any legal permit of Estonian Republic) called "ethnic russians" or "minority" should regarded like legal citizens with normal civil rights (there is difference in human and civil rights!). I think something is wrong or I miss something?

[LEGEND]

Anyone born in the US is a United States citizen. There was no Estonian citizenship, there was Soviet citizenship, so any attempt to devide the population and give ethnic Estonians citizenship and to treat the rest of the population as "illegal immigrants" is absurd.

[Flamming_Python]

According to the article of the first comment (BBC) I have a question - how to name or categorize the group of people who entering or habitate some country without legitime entrance certificate or permit? In USA the people coming from Mexico illegally called "illegal immigrants", so do in Europe (people from Africa for instance). By the article you could get an impression like for Estonia illegal group of people (came to Estonia during Soviet occupation without any legal permit of Estonian Republic) called "ethnic russians" or "minority" should regarded like legal citizens with normal civil rights (there is difference in human and civil rights!). I think something is wrong or I miss something?

Stupid fascism. What are advocating ethnic cleansing? :bash:

These people are mostly the descendants of previous immigrants, who themselves were ordinary people from other parts of the USSR, not members of the KGB. It's ridiculous that you harbour so much resentment towards them, for them Estonia is their home, and nothing politics can do will change that.

Maybe you should also kick out the Ukranians, Georgians, Kazakh's, Azeri's and any others who came during Soviet times, just like the Russians did. But I don't think you'd dare, because your politicians want good relations towards those countries (they could potentially become anti-Russia allies). There are also plenty of other minorities i'm sure that you can think of that came during the USSR days, but once again i'd doubt you'd dare to raise a hand against them.

[Switek]

Anyone born in the US is a United States citizen. There was no Estonian citizenship, there was Soviet citizenship, so any attempt to devide the population and give ethnic Estonians citizenship and to treat the rest of the population as "illegal immigrants" is absurd.

There are two ways (models) of establishing citizenship: by blood (nationality of father/parents) or by soil (place of birth). This first one is European standard, the second one American... Do not ask me why :)

[LEGEND]

There are two ways (models) of establishing citizenship: by blood (nationality of father/parents) or by soil (place of birth). This first one is European standard, the second one American... Do not ask me why :)

Its only the primitive chauvinist countries that want to marginalize everyone besides the master race. No other republic in the Ex-soviet union is doing that. In Kyrgyzstan, Russian is an official language. No other ex-republic ever tried to give citizenship to only the countrie's namebearing nationality.Any civilized country has means to allow immigrants to become a citizen, which doesnt even apply in this case, because a new country was created when it separated from the Soviet Union, automatically anyone living on the territory that you claim is your new country has to get that countries citizenship.

On a side note, you forgot to mention a third way... money, from what i've heard its not a big problem in Poland to get Polish citizenship for money.

[Kaapeli]

Although sometimes I have a feeling that genetical degeneration took part in the northern parts of Europe when talking to people like you. Wicked tribes from the north should be reigned by force, Communist iron fist is the only way for you.

"Wicked tribes"? Have you actually taken a look at the history? The communist empire was one of the worst and brutal "tribes" in the history of humankind.

[Switek]

Its only the primitive chauvinist countries that want to marginalize everyone besides the master race. No other republic in the Ex-soviet union is doing that. In Kyrgyzstan, Russian is an official language. No other ex-republic ever tried to give citizenship to only the countrie's namebearing nationality.Any civilized country has means to allow immigrants to become a citizen, which doesnt even apply in this case, because a new country was created when it separated from the Soviet Union, automatically anyone living on the territory that you claim is your new country has to get that countries citizenship.

On a side note, you forgot to mention a third way... money, from what i've heard its not a big problem in Poland to get Polish citizenship for money.
:cantbeli:


What's yor problem? A citizenship matter is a prerogative of the state (legislation), which describes the way to acquire this...:roll:

[RomanS]

I still see Russians in here, still trying to answer back.

Guys, stop. To send PMs to all of you would be rediculous.

Let Estonians do what they want, fuk em. Simple

They have their own country, and showing their face the way they desire. We have plenty of land to put whatever we want on it. World knows word Russia, but many people cant even find Estonia on the map. We have a lot to be proud of, and if some little group of very bored mofos want to show off circus. In my book, thats called an attention whore.

Third attempt to make Russians here stop arguying with idiots.

[DeltaWhisky58]

If you can't behave like adults on this thread, you get treated like kids.