Polish and Czech leaders likely to accept U.S. missiles

[CHERK]

Monday February 19, 01:03 PM

“WARSAW (*******) - Poland and the Czech Republic are likely to accept a U.S. offer to host parts of a global anti-missile defence system on their territories, the prime ministers of the two European countries said on Monday.
"We have agreed that our response to the (U.S.) offer will most likely be positive," Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek said at a joint news conference with his Polish counterpart Jaroslaw Kaczynski.”
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/19022007/325/polish-czech-leaders-likely-accept-u-s-missiles.html (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/19022007/325/polish-czech-leaders-likely-accept-u-s-missiles.html)

--------------------------------------------------------


Russia will be able to hit NMD elements, if they are deployed in Europe - official

“MOSCOW. Feb 19 (Interfax) - Russian Strategic Missile Forces will be able to hit elements of the U.S. National Missile Defense (NMD) if they are deployed in Poland and the Czech Republic.
"If the governments of Poland and the Czech Republic make the decision, the Strategic Missile Forces could put these facilities on the list of targets," forces commander Nikolai Solvotsov told a Monday news conference at the Interfax central office.”
http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/politics/28.html?id_issue=11681055 (http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/politics/28.html?id_issue=11681055)

[Switek]

little odd...

19th February 2007

A return to Cold War posturing

From Warsaw Business Journal

by Barnaby Harward

PM Kaczyński says he is in favor of the US anti-missile shield, Prime Minister Jarosław Kaczyński said last week that he and the President were in favor of plans to build a US anti-missile facility on Polish soil. PM Kaczynski has voiced strong support for placing the anti-missile shield in Poland

The base is part of a global anti-missile system designed to shoot down ballistic missiles potentially fired from what Washington calls rogue states.

"The government, the President and myself, are in favour of the anti-missile shield," Kaczyński said. His remarks were the strongest indication yet that the government is likely to accept the US plan.

Russia, however, clearly sees the move as hostile and warned the US last week that it might pull out of a Cold War nuclear arms treaty because of Washington's plans to build the shield. The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty was signed by Mikhail Gorbachev and Ronald Reagan in December 1987.

When asked whether Russia would pull out of the agreement, General Yuri Baluyevsky, head of the Russian general staff, said: "We will see how our American partners are going to act. What they are doing at the moment - creating a third positioning region for anti-missile defense in Europe - is totally inexplicable."

The United States says that the shield is needed to protect Europe from Iranian missiles. Russian officials, however, claim Washington and its NATO allies are building the shield because of Russia. "This is in no way directed at Russia ... We have offered to cooperate with Russia on missile defense because we believe that we face a common set of threats emanating from the Middle East as well as other areas," US State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

McCormack added that although Washington had received reports "from various Russian sources" that Moscow might pull out of the treaty, it had not heard anything formally from the Russian government. (*******)

Warsaw Buisness Journal (http://www.wbj.pl)

[tyovan]

Russian Strategic Missile Forces will be able to hit elements of the U.S. National Missile Defense (NMD) if they are deployed in Poland and the Czech Republic.
"If the governments of Poland and the Czech Republic make the decision, the Strategic Missile Forces could put these facilities on the list of targets," forces commander Nikolai Solvotsov told a Monday news conference at the Interfax central office.”

Typical provocation. Sorry Moscow, it's not your backyard anymore!!!

[Switek]

Typical provocation. Sorry Moscow, it's not your backyard anymore!!!

Typical Russian diplomacy language... Negotiation under pressure... It's getting bored.

[daily666]

Poland to answer on missile defense shield within two weeks

http://www.warsawvoice.com/
Warsaw, Poland February 19, 2007

New Defense Minister Aleksander Szczyglo said on Sunday that Poland will provide a reply to the U.S. regarding America's offer to build a missle defense base on Polish territory within two weeks.

Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski is in favor of the missile defense shield saying it would bring Poland greater security. Public opinion, however, is divided and Samoobrona's Andrzej Lepper is questioning the need to rush and wants more information regarding the project.

"We are now in the process of preparing a reply ... and I think within two weeks it will be relayed to the American government via diplomatic channels," Szczyglo said.

"I shouldn't want to give concrete dates because such things always takes a bit of time, but I think the first meeting on the issue will take place in a few weeks."

The U.S. has asked Poland and the Czech Republic to host parts of of its multi-billion dollar global defense system designed to destroy missiles from "rogue states" like Iran. Russia has seriously objected to the U.S.' plan and this is unlikely to improve Polish-Russian relations.
(The Warsaw Voice)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

This is just bizarre. Has Russia ever sat down at a quiet moment, and wondered how it got to a point where it's pointing nuclear missiles at it's neighbors just over the border? I mean, the US is chummy with Canada, and it's hostility to Mexico is limited to avoiding it at parties. I couldn't imagine being so polarized against either of them that I needed to involve several megatons of unfriendliness.

[Switek]

This is just bizarre. Has Russia ever sat down at a quiet moment, and wondered how it got to a point where it's pointing nuclear missiles at it's neighbors just over the border? I mean, the US is chummy with Canada, and it's hostility to Mexico is limited to avoiding it at parties. I couldn't imagine being so polarized against either of them that I needed to involve several megatons of unfriendliness.

According to my observations Russia needs permanently external (or internal) enemies... I think that's a part of their vital identity

[tyovan]

Didn't you know 2Sheds - those countries are aligned against Russia. The NATO imperialists could invade Holy Mother Russia through Nazi fascist Estonia! They're placing this missile defense in ungrateful-for-Soviet-liberation Poland so that we can't respond with our mighty rockets when the evil Americans sneak-attack the Motherland!!!

[/sarcastic paranoid Russian nationalist mode]

[daily666]

This is just bizarre. Has Russia ever sat down at a quiet moment, and wondered how it got to a point where it's pointing nuclear missiles at it's neighbors just over the border? I mean, the US is chummy with Canada, and it's hostility to Mexico is limited to avoiding it at parties. I couldn't imagine being so polarized against either of them that I needed to involve several megatons of unfriendliness.

Well, Russia likes their friends over the border "shaken & stirred" p-) but than, what are they going to do? Nuke us? Like some hardcore Russia STRONG11!!11 members here would.

The funny part is that nobody's placing this system against Russia. It's just not suitable to prevent any major ICBM attack from Russian territory, and there was not so much noise about the one placed in Alaska in the same distance from Russia. It is Russia's own paranoia created for politcal reasons. A strong leader always needs an enemy, does he? If there are none in the vincinity he must develop them himself.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

It just seems nuts to me. The US obviously has enemies. Everybody does - they're people who are so culturally and morally apart from them, that they can't live together peacefully. But how different can one set of people be from another set just on the other side of a line on a map? Sure they can be different - but different enough to nuke?

[Switek]

It just seems nuts to me. The US obviously has enemies. Everybody does - they're people who are so culturally and morally apart from them, that they can't live together peacefully. But how different can one set of people be from another set just on the other side of a line on a map? Sure they can be different - but different enough to nuke?

Enemies as someone you must defeat or enemies who force me to continous development... this what makes a difference...

[CHERK]

According to my observations Russia needs permanently external (or internal) enemies... I think that's a part of their vital identity

Same as every nation.

What’s all the rumble about. It was predictable and nothing out of the ordinary about it.

[W.E.Kurtz]

funny thing is that most ppl in Poland are against building this shield on our soil but who cares...

[Switek]

Same as every nation.

What’s all the rumble about. It was predictable and nothing out of the ordinary about it.

Fortunatelly for us we do not have enmies exept those who volunteer for this :)

[Switek]

funny thing is that most ppl in Poland are against building this shield on our soil but who cares...

it's you again ? I really regret that you post your pro Russian post so rarely...

If I'm wrong answer my PM, please... ;)

[CHERK]

Fortunatelly for us we do not have enmies exept those who volunteer for this :)

Same as every nation. :lol:

[Switek]

Same as every nation. :lol:

every generalisation mean weak argument... Be so kind an be much more smart. Can you? ;)

[Mamont]

But how different can one set of people be from another set just on the other side of a line on a map? Sure they can be different - but different enough to nuke?

Why not? It's not the first time such possibility arises..

[W.E.Kurtz]

it's you again ? I really regret that you post your pro Russian post so rarely...

If I'm wrong answer my PM, please... ;)

yep yep yep and U will bash every poland/russian thread as alwayswoot ive got some life to live, try it for yourself;-)

[Switek]

yep yep yep and U will bash every poland/russian thread as alwayswoot ive got some life to live, try it for yourself;-)

very well oriented.... be nice to know you much better... woot

[CHERK]

every generalisation mean weak argument... Be so kind an be much more smart. Can you? ;)
:lol:
I specifically wrote the same phrase twice but you still failed to see that it’s not an argument but sarcasm which is all that your non-constructive Russophobe replies deserve.

Did I cloud your brilliant mind with my “not smart enough for Switek comments”, shame on me. I'll try better...

[Switek]

:lol:
I specifically wrote the same phrase twice but you still failed to see that it’s not an argument but sarcasm which is all that your non-constructive Russophobe replies deserve.

Did I cloud your brilliant mind with my “not smart enough for Switek comments”, shame on me. I'll try better...

Rusophobe... I'm getting bored of this label of my humble person. I'd appreciate another one woot

[CHERK]

Rusophobe... I'm getting bored of this label of my humble person. I'd appreciate another one woot
If Switek sounds like a duck ……. …….. he’s a Russophobe.
So if you want I can call you a Duck.
The way your mind works I am sure you can see a perfect logic here.

Cheers

[johanness]

This is not about NATO

This is just something between Poland,Czechia and the US

No support from European NATO-Members Print | Send this article | Feedback January 23, 2007 Font:
COLD WARS, STAR WARS
Washington's Missile Strategy for Europe Provokes Russia
Washington's plan to install part of its missile defense system in Eastern Europe is creating tensions with Russia that evoke memories of the Cold War. Moscow fears the US is seeking to disturb the balance of power in Europe.


AP
A newly built NATO air-defense radar base near Nepolisy, some 85 kilometers east from Prague: Washington wants to build parts of its missile defense in the Czech Republic and Poland.
The Russian military is sharply criticizing plans by the United States to install parts of its Missile Defense Initiative (MDI) in Eastern Europe.

Washington formally approached Poland and the Czech Republic last week to start discussions about hosting parts of its MDI system, which combines a long-range radar system with rockets to shoot down hostile missiles in space. The United States government is currently investing about $10 billion a year to develop the missile shield system. Under the proposal, Poland could become the base for an underground missile silo and the Czech Republic would host the accompanying radar system -- making it the biggest part of the so-called "Son of Star Wars" defense system outside America.

Russian military officials say they harbor serious doubts about the US claim that it is merely seeking to defend itself from nuclear threats from Iran and other rogue states.

"Our analysis shows that the placing of a radio locating station in the Czech Republic and anti-missile equipment in Poland is a real threat to us," Lieutenant-General Vladimir Popovkin, commander of Russia's space forces, told news agencies on Monday. If Washington were serious about monitoring Iran, he argued, it would build its radar station in Turkey.

Russia fears that the system could upset the balance of power in Europe and kick-start an arms race between the former Cold War enemies. It also threatened Poland with unspecified measures if Warsaw accepts the proposal. Poland was a member of the Warsaw Pact alliance which operated as the Communist counterpart to the NATO during the Cold War. The country switched sides after the fall of Communism and Defense Minister Radek Sikorski now describes the US as his country's "most important ally."

Officials in Washington rejected Russian criticism, saying the governmenti is open to cooperating with Moscow. "We believe that building infrastructure of the anti-missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic will significantly boost the defences of a united Europe," Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried told the Polish daily Rzeczpospolita. "I want to stress that the anti-missile system is not aimed at Russia." In addition to protecting the US and its troops abroad, another spokesperson from the US State Department added that the system could also provide a safety shield for its allies in Europe.

As for Poland and the Czech Republic, the move could be a sign that they don't fully trust the European Union to provide their security. One analyst even said it could be interpreted as a signal that the two countries aren't interested in the formation of a joint EU security policy. "The current governments are in favor because both of them are right-of-center and Euro-skeptic and they think that as far as security is concerned, they have to maintain very close ties with the United States," Jiri Pehe, a Czech political analyst and director of New York University in Prague told the Associated Press. Both countries require parliamentary approval before they can reach a formal agreement with Washington, but public opposition -- at least at this early stage -- is strong.

The US currently has inceptor bases in Alaska and California. Other countries with working missile programs are Russia, Israel and Japan whilst 15 more are currently developing them.

mkp/ap/*******

[johanness]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,461643,00.html

[Switek]

If Switek sounds like a duck ……. …….. he’s a Russophobe.
So if you want I can call you a Duck.
The way your mind works I am sure you can see a perfect logic here.

Cheers

Oh... come on... I apprieciate your deep intuition. You know mate how my minds works. Well, well you should check up some more threads. Simplification is a proof of ignorance ;)

[Herrmannek]

Putin is a laugh, louder he screams, more we know scream is only thing he got... He is like menopause, he will burst with anger and give away punches indiscriminately. This, among other things will persuade Europeans that Russians, with this government line, aren't reliable partner at all. I recognize because of that Europe can go to the higher lever of cooperation. This time for real, not only as an empty proclamation.

[daily666]

Putin is a laugh, louder he screams, more we know scream is only thing he got... He is like menopause, he will burst with anger and give away punches indiscriminately. This, among other things will persuade Europeans that Russians, with this government line, aren't reliable partner at all. I recognize because of that Europe can go to the higher lever of cooperation. This time for real, not only as an empty proclamation.

And this is where you're wrong Herrman. 70% of Germans supported Putin's rant against USA in Munich. And you are thinking about Europe getting a higher level of cooperation... under the US supervision? Johaness has made a good point with those two articles, Europe would go straight into Russia's hands. USA is so hated in Europe that it prefers to turn away from it and ally with Russia.

I wouldn't also underestimate Putin or Russia, as it seems it's using it's resources and power very well.

Today's news
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/bbc_logo.gif
Czech-Polish OK for US missiles
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6376137.stm

The leaders of the Czech Republic and Poland say they are in favour of letting the US build parts of its missile defence system on their soil.

Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek said he agreed with his Polish counterpart that they would probably respond positively to a US request.

The US wants to build a missile interceptor site in Poland and a radar station in the Czech Republic.

Russia has condemned the plan, saying it will be able to target the sites.

"If the governments of Poland and the Czech Republic take a decision to this effect, the strategic missile troops will be capable of having these facilities as targets," said Gen Nikolai Solovtsov, commander of Russia's missile forces.

The US says the missile defence in Central Europe is designed to guard against possible missile attacks from the Middle East or North Korea.

Political battle

Both Mr Topolanek and Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski stressed that the missiles would not be directed against Russia. They were speaking after talks in Warsaw on Monday.

Mr Topolanek could still struggle to get the plan approved by both houses of the Czech parliament, correspondents say.

His three-party, centre-right governing coalition recently won a vote of confidence, but controls just 100 of 200 seats in the lower house.

There is opposition to the scheme in the Czech Republic, protesters having recently rallied against it in Prague.

There is also public opposition in Poland to the plan.

The US has already built missile interceptor sites in Alaska and in California, but says it needs to expand into Europe to counter growing threats from further afield.

[Switek]

And this is where you're wrong Herrman. 70% of Germans supported Putin's rant against USA in Munich. And you are thinking about Europe getting a higher level of cooperation... under the US supervision? Johaness has made a good point with those two articles, Europe would go straight into Russia's hands. USA is so hated in Europe that it prefers to turn away from it and ally with Russia.

I wouldn't also underestimate Putin or Russia, as it seems it's using it's resources and power very well.


What interesting is that Germans politicians from CDU/CSU and many others European governments are intersted to develop US ABM system to defend whole democratic Europe. Factualy they said yes and have no objections for such investment in Poland and Czech Rep. What also is important factor

[Kap2406]

Seriously... What did you guys expect? The ABM system jepordizes the balance of nuclear forces between Russia and US. By pointing its missles at ABM locations, eliminates the problem, thus restoring the balance. You guys, had to be pretty naive thinking that you'll just get away with building system on your territory. People have been saying all along, that as soon you do it, you WILL become #1 target for nuclear attack in case of nuclear war. So no surprise there. Have a nice day.

[Switek]

Your strategical rocket forces can do it whatever you want... You can burn up every country in this globe... 10 interceptors in Poland would be like broomstick against sand storm. Your nuclear power is suffucient to anihilate US in few minutes. And ABM facilities wouldn't stop you.

As more Putin is blackmailing Poland and Czech Rep than much more propably is that installation. Psychological effect in is simple: increasing threath means increasing resistance...

Have a nice day, another one in a way of destabilisation...

[perdurabo]

Seriously... What did you guys expect? The ABM system jepordizes the balance of nuclear forces between Russia and US. By pointing its missles at ABM locations, eliminates the problem, thus restoring the balance. You guys, had to be pretty naive thinking that you'll just get away with building system on your territory. People have been saying all along, that as soon you do it, you WILL become #1 target for nuclear attack in case of nuclear war. So no surprise there. Have a nice day.
we knew it already, they used same line when we entered NATO, and when we where in WP NATO nukes where pointing at us so nothing new :roll:
I think it is stupid placing here US ABM, we should develope and build EU ABM or NATO one this yank instalation will bring only more disharmony in EU, I have no problem if Russia or Germany hates us but when they do that both at same time we are usually in big kaka :cantbeli:

[INAT]

According to my observations Russia needs permanently external (or internal) enemies... I think that's a part of their vital identity


The same could be said and is said of the US.An unstable Europe is good for america that way they can 1.Maintain and build NATO and 2.Have leverage over regional issues and meddel in EU affairs. If America's true intent is to "protect Europe from Iranian missles build the missle system in NATO Turkey.This is a direct threat to Moscow and is really unnessary if Russia should be a partner against islamic terror.Very bad move on the part of the Americans very bad.But this is common of the NWO America is creating.

[Switek]

http://www.warsawvoice.pl/images/small_wvOnl_logo.gif

Russia warns Poles and Czech's on missle defense plans
Warsaw, Poland February 20, 2007
A top Russian general warned Monday that Poland and the Czech Republic risk being targeted by Russian missiles if they agree to host a proposed U.S. missile defense system on their territories.

General Nikolai Solovtsov, head of Russia's missile forces, said the system would upset strategic stability. It would be the first such site in Europe.

"If the governments of Poland and the Czech Republic take such a step ... the Strategic Missile Forces will be capable of targeting these facilities if a relevant decision is made," Solovtsov said.

On Monday, Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek was in Warsaw to meet with Polish PM Jaroslaw Kaczynski and said at a news conference, "I think it is in our joint interest to negotiate this initiative and to build in our area the missile defense."

The U.S. claimes the bases in Poland and the Czech Republic would be designed to intercept missiles being developed by Iran.

Kaczynski brushed off Moscow's concerns, saying "the missile defense system is not directed against any normal state."

"Any statement suggesting that the missile defense would change the balance of power in Europe is a misunderstanding," Kaczynski added. "This is being conveyed to our partners in both the west and the east."

TWV (http://www.warsawvoice.pl)

[Switek]

The same could be said and is said of the US.An unstable Europe is good for america that way they can 1.Maintain and build NATO and 2.Have leverage over regional issues and meddel in EU affairs. If America's true intent is to "protect Europe from Iranian missles build the missle system in NATO Turkey.This is a direct threat to Moscow and is really unnessary if Russia should be a partner against islamic terror.Very bad move on the part of the Americans very bad.But this is common of the NWO America is creating.


US taxpayers spend few hundreds blns of $$$ to stabilize, and assure economical growth in Europe after WW2. And "de facto" US presence in Western Europe was key factor for integrity process

[INAT]

US taxpayers spend few hundreds blns of $$$ to stabilize, and assure economical growth in Europe after WW2. And "de facto" US presence in Western Europe was key factor for integrity process


But is it needed in the modern Europe? Honestly

[Switek]

But is it needed in the modern Europe? Honestly

Besides all conflicts and misunderestandings definitely, yes.

[INAT]

Beides all conflicts and misunderestandings definitely, yes.


Ok then i'm convinced!:)

[Musashi]

A manipulation in the Polish media:
The question is:
Do you support the idea of placing the shield in the Polish territory?
57% - No
28% - Yes
17% - Hard to say
And now look at the graph rofl :cantbeli:
http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/2/3931/z3931102X.jpg

[Switek]

A manipulation in the Polish media:
The question is:
Do you support the idea of placing the shield in the Polish territory?
57% - No
28% - Yes
17% - Hard to say
And now look at the graph rofl :cantbeli:
http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/2/3931/z3931102X.jpg

:cantbeli:

such **** happens... It's just a mistake. Do you believe that after communism Poles are so stupid to be manipulated in such primitive way?

[Musashi]

Duck and the Czech PM. They look like Flip and Flap rofl
http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/0/3931/z3931020X.jpg

[Switek]

Russian General Warns East European Nations Against Hosting U.S. Missile Shield

Created: 20.02.2007 11:24 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 12:37 MSK, 1 hour 21 minutes ago

MosNews (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2007/02/20/missilegeneral.shtml)

Russia’s military is capable of firing missiles at Poland and the Czech Republic if they agreed to host a U.S. missile shield, Russia’s Strategic Forces commander said, but added it was for the Kremlin to decide, the ******* news agency reported Tuesday.

“So far we have seen nothing being done, only intentions being talked about,” General Nikolai Solovtsov told a news conference on Monday.

“But should the Polish and Czech governments decide to host the U.S. missile shield, the strategic missile forces will be capable of having these installations as their targets if a relevant political decision were made,” he added.

NATO spokesman James Appathurai, responding to the general’s comments, said in a statement: “The days of talk of targeting NATO territory or vice versa are long past us. This kind of extreme language is out of date and uncalled for.”

In early 1990s, post-Soviet Russia announced its missiles were no longer targeted at NATO countries. Analysts said then the announcement, which could not be independently verified, was a purely symbolic gesture ending the Cold War hostility.

Relations between Moscow and Washington have soured since NATO’s expansion eastward and the announcement of the U.S. missile plans.

Russia distrusts U.S. assurances the European missile shield is meant to avert possible attacks from countries such as Iran or North Korea and says it believes it is the real target.

Solovtsov said Russia’s resurgent military industrial complex was strong enough to produce a new generation of missiles, which could penetrate the U.S. missile umbrella.

He said massive investment in the military industrial complex under Putin made possible the creation of new weapons to match the U.S. project.

“Missile producers that is around 500 enterprises will be capable to meet any tasks in the next few years,” he said.

Solovtsov said missile factories could produce in few years a new supersonic missile invisible to the U.S. missile shield or restart production of intermediate range missiles, if Moscow decided to quit a 1987 pact with Washington banning them.

Although, the general rejected suggestions that the row over the U.S. missiles in Europe could restart an expensive arms race.

“During the Cold War we competed by boosting the number of missiles, launching pads,” Solovtsov said. “I do not think we will go again along this path. We can now solve the task through quality of weapons, rather than through their quantity.”

We should say, THANK YOU VERY MUCH! woot Such statements and blackmailing only strenght our negotiation power with US. As stronger Putin pushes and threathens than much more defensive stuff we are gonna to get. Extremely well job :)

[Switek]

Duck and the Czech PM. They looks like Flip and Flap rofl

Musashi, WTF you are flamming this thread?! Go to "OTH" section

[daily666]

What's the with the argument to building this site in Turkey? It's been used couple of times by the ABM system opponents.

Is it technical (i.e. the ICBM from Iran would be at x altitute with y speed flying towards EU/US right over Eastern Europe)? Or political?

[daily666]

A manipulation in the Polish media:
The question is:
Do you support the idea of placing the shield in the Polish territory?
57% - No
28% - Yes
17% - Hard to say
And now look at the graph rofl :cantbeli:
http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/2/3931/z3931102X.jpg

Noticed that today. Hideous! :cantbeli:

[jamaKinson]

I don't care what Russians and Germans think about it, yet I DON'T want to have ANY foreign military on ground permanently in Poland (except for Hungarian ;) ), and that exterritorial thingy... ehh.

[Switek]

I don't care what Russians and Germans think about it, yet I DON'T want to have ANY foreign military on ground permanently in Poland (except for Hungarian ;) ), and that exterritorial thingy... ehh.

Neither I do... I really think that's a bad idea for Poland in longer perspective. But when I can see Russian blackmail I can only regret that followers get a strong argument for it and inner debate about Polish interest has been turned into "why we can't go under Russian dictate"...

I wish Gospodin Putin had been a KGB spy in Poland and propably he would knew how to talk with Poles, then.

[Mamont]

What's the with the argument to building this site in Turkey? It's been used couple of times by the ABM system opponents.
Is it technical (i.e. the ICBM from Iran would be at x altitute with y speed flying towards EU/US right over Eastern Europe)? Or political?

Both.Besides that from Turkey it's easier to detect and intercept mythical iranian missiles it's also will be a better political solution, as ABM in Turkey thou also treatening russian retaliatory possibility is not so openly and directly negate strike at main NATO players in case sh*t hit the fan. ABM in Poland directly corresponds with russia's will to exit rocket treaty.

[sferrin]

Seriously... What did you guys expect? The ABM system jepordizes the balance of nuclear forces between Russia and US.

How specifically?

[Switek]

Both.Besides that from Turkey it's easier to detect and intercept mythical iranian missiles it's also will be a better political solution, as ABM in Turkey thou also treatening russian retaliatory possibility is not so openly and directly negate strike at main NATO players in case sh*t hit the fan. ABM in Poland directly corresponds with russia's will to exit rocket treaty.

Wrong, Turkey is too close to Iran to be effective place for ABM interceptors...

[Mamont]

Wrong, Turkey is too close to Iran to be effective place for ABM interceptors...

:) Turkey is BIG country, over 1600 km wide. Early warning posts with UAVs on patrols could be placed near Iran border while main complex could be build west of Ankara. The system will be more effective as those thou mythical but still subjected to laws of physics missiles will be easier to intercept due to relatively low speed before releasing warhead/s, and in case of interception the remnants possibly will fall within iranian or iraqi borders. Your move.

[daily666]

Poland Outcries at Warning against U.S. Missile Shield


Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski on Tuesday made a strong response to Russia's stern warning against the proposed deployment of the U.S. missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic.

It is not about Russian security, he told on state Radio 1, adding the planned installations "do not in any way threaten Russia."

He accused Moscow of attempting to bring Poland once again into "the Russian sphere of influence."

Russian missile forces commander Nikolai Solovtsov on Monday warned that they would be capable of firing at U.S. missile defense elements in Poland and the Czech Republic should the two countries decide to host them.

"If the governments of Poland and the Czech Republic make the decision, the Strategic Missile Forces could put these facilities on the list of targets," Solovtsov told a news conference.

Dismissing the Russian warning, Kaczynski said the possibility of Russia regaining the influence of the Soviet era over Poland would be much limited once "the missile bases are installed."

Kaczynski and his Czech counterpart Mirek Topolanek said after talks on Monday that the two countries would probably agree to the deployment of the U.S. missile defense system in their territory.

"It is in our interests to negotiate on this issue. It is in the interests of our countries to host the anti-missile shield," Topolanek said.

On Jan. 20, Washington proposed building a radar center for its NMD system in the Czech Republic and deploying interceptor rockets in Poland.

The base in Poland would supplement two others located in Alaska and California. U.S. officials say that the shield has been designed to intercept rockets fired at the U.S. from the Middle or Far East.

According to a latest poll, 53 percent of the Poles opposed the deployment of the U.S. anti-missile system in their country.

The deployment of missile defense systems in Eastern Europe may prompt Moscow to withdraw from a treaty on the elimination of short- and medium-range nuclear arms.

Chief of Russian General Staff Gen. Yuri Baluyevsky said in Washington on Thursday that Russia could unilaterally pull out of the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty if the United States deployed elements of its national missile defense (NMD) system in the Czech Republic and Poland.

The good argument is that Russia warned about pointing it's nukes at Poland when we joined NATO in 1999.

[Switek]

:) Turkey is BIG country, over 1600 km wide. Early warning posts with UAVs on patrols could be placed near Iran border while main complex could be build west of Ankara. The system will be more effective as those thou mythical but still subjected to laws of physics missiles will be easier to intercept due to relatively low speed before releasing warhead/s, and in case of interception the remnants possibly will fall within iranian or iraqi borders. Your move.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15000&d=1160591449

Ths map has been posted many times, so far... :|

[Mamont]

So i get you don't have any con's to Turkey and exept for given map no pro's for Poland? Please, provide estimated trajectory parameters of those mythical missiles, that will fly over your country.

[Switek]

So i get you don't have any con's to Turkey and exept for given map no pro's for Poland? Please, provide estimated trajectory parameters of those mythical missiles, that will fly over your country.

...mythical missiles... May be... Now it's hypothesis but what in the next 5 or 10 years?

[Mamont]

...mythical missiles... May be... Now it's hypothesis but what in the next 5 or 10 years?

Ahh, your best move again - to evade an answer..

Even in 10 years they will not create missiles that could reach US and hit targets with adequate accuracy, i do not even want to mention numbers as the "rogue" missile is a pure US-created myth to scare own citizens and to cover own interests. And who knows, what goverment will be in Iran in 5 or 10 years?

[Switek]

Czech Republic Accuses Russia of Intimidation, Says Will Build Up Defense

Created: 20.02.2007 17:06 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 17:06 MSK, 2 hours 29 minutes ago

MosNews (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2007/02/20/czechsworry.shtml)

The Czech Republic said on Tuesday it would not be intimidated by Russia over plans to site parts of a U.S. missile defence system on its soil, and said attempts at “blackmail” by Moscow would backfire.

the ******* news agency quoted Czech Foreign Minister Karel Schwarzenberg sas saying that threats by Russian officials over the plans, which would involve placing a radar system on Czech territory and a missile battery in Poland, would only make Czechs more determined to defend themselves.

Russia’s strategic forces commander, General Nikolai Solovtsov, said on Monday that Russia would be capable of firing missiles at the Czech Republic and Poland if the ex-communist states agreed to host the U.S. defence system.

“The Czechs will now think the shield is even more necessary,” Schwarzenberg told ******* on the sidelines of a business conference in Warsaw.

“We have quite an experience with Russians. You have to make clear to them you won’t succumb to blackmail. Once you give in to blackmail, there’s no going back. We have to be strong.”

The United States wants Poland and Czech Republic to host elements of its multi-billion dollar global system designed to counter missiles fired by what Washington calls “rogue states” such as Iran and North Korea.

Moscow views the system as an attempt to shift the post-Cold War balance of power, and relations between Moscow and Washington have soured since the announcement of the U.S. plans.

Both the Polish and the Czech prime ministers have said their countries would likely say accept the installations, which would tie their interests to Washington in the long term and bolster their security.

Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski told Polish radio on Tuesday the comments by Solovtsov were “an attempt to scare”.

Czech Prime Minister Topolanek summoned Russia’s ambassador in Prague for “consultations” to take place later this week, a spokesman to Topolanek said.

Didn't I say?... :|

[Switek]

Ahh, your best move again - to evade an answer..

Even in 10 years they will not create missiles that could reach US and hit targets with adequate accuracy, i do not even want to mention numbers as the "rogue" missile is a pure US-created myth to scare own citizens and to cover own interests. And who knows, what goverment will be in Iran in 5 or 10 years?


Prepare for the worstcase scenario, then you'll be able to assure your safety... Is it rational or not is a matter of another discussion

[Mamont]

Great. Than why blame Russia for not trusting US much?

[Switek]

Great. Than why blame Russia for not trusting US much?

Becouse the only country, which is capable to anihilate whole US, is Russia. And US has no means to stop it and Putin knows that ten ABM interceptors in Poland can't do anything to stop Russia in total conflict .

[Mamont]

Becouse the only country, which is capable to anihilate whole US, is Russia. And US has no means to stop it

Amusing. And Russia must believe US words just like that? There is an US proposed non-aggression pact or arms limitation treaty or some other document, stating that US has no interest in Russian matters? Or i missed something?



and Putin knows that ten ABM interceptors in Poland can't do anything to stop Russia in total conflict .
What? How many will be there in 5 or 10 years? But one thing you say is true - Poland really can't stop Russia. But it is willingly getting ready to be sacrificed for the US.

Oh, and i forgot to put the appropriate mp.net comment on the Czech article - Czech Republic STRONG!!

[Switek]

Oh come on... Russians never belived, do not believe and will not believe anybody. Mistrusts it's so common that became just a norm in daily life...

[CPL Trevoga]

I just watched that klown Kaczynski, serious Napoleon complex, funny looking dude. Then I watched another bafoon, Russian cosmic forces general, said they can target (with ICBMs I guess) those sites. Well no **** Sherlock, I hope you can, but is it a such a bright idea in the first place? What, you going to nuke a neighbor, not a sharp thinker this dude.

Anyways, Polish and Czecks ex-commies are causing trouble with Russia now.

[Mamont]

:) Yeah-yeah.. And poles are such trusting creatures that it brings tear to my eye...

So, in general, Russia can and possibly will take steps to prepare for the worst scenario and her reasons are no better than any others. I think Poland and Czech will start a goverment shelter-re/building program soon..

[perdurabo]

Mamont biggest BS is Russia having to target nukes at us, they are already targetted since we left Warsow Pact, so this will change nothing for us, if **** hits the fan we are screwed even if no nukes would be used, look at map we are beatwin you guys with realy massive armament and NATO with realy massive armament too. Any biger european war will go on our teritory.
I'm aginst this ABM because it mendles with EU stability, not because Russians are aginst.

[Mamont]

Mamont biggest BS is Russia having to target nukes at us, they are already targetted since we left Warsow Pact, so this will change nothing for us,

Man, ICBMs are very dangerous, powerfull and expensive weapons, used to severely cripple important political and military targets. I don't know any of those in Poland comparable to those in France, Italy, Germany and Britain. It has targets for tactical nukes, but not something bigger. Oh, for your information it takes about 15 minutes to alter icbm target, so targeting Poland is no big deal, and besides i haven't saw the fact that Russia had targeted Poland with nukes before.



if **** hits the fan we are screwed even if no nukes would be used, look at map we are beatwin you guys with realy massive armament and NATO with realy massive armament too.

No, you're not screwed. At least not in first 40-120 minutes and possibly up to 2 days. You know that targets have priorities. And on polish soil there isn't any major target worth a strategic nuke in the first stage of global conflict. With that ABM - well you know the answer.



Any biger european war will go on our teritory.

Yes. And allowing ABM polish goverment increasing its possibility.



I'm aginst this ABM because it mendles with EU stability, not because Russians are aginst.
It decreases stability in general, creating possibilities for new wars.

[perdurabo]

I realy doubt it will create any war*, tenisions yes, cold war 2 maybe, craks in EU solidarity for sure, higher gas and oil bill... If yanks won't propose us realy good deal its not worth pissing off half of europe just because they feel unsafe. They want to arsef.ck us without any lube and our goverments are stupid enough to go for it:/
What i would realy like to see is EU common defence, with friendly relations with both Russia and US but not depending on any of those two. Sadly politics are stupid or evil enough to spoil it.

* you still have enough nukes to flaten whole world twice ABM or not noone will risk MAD situation

[herbal718]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.svg

[daily666]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.svg

Someone once said: "What's the difference if you get killed with one or with one hundred bullets".


I just watched that klown Kaczynski, serious Napoleon complex, funny looking dude. Then I watched another bafoon, Russian cosmic forces general, said they can target (with ICBMs I guess) those sites. Well no **** Sherlock, I hope you can, but is it a such a bright idea in the first place? What, you going to nuke a neighbor, not a sharp thinker this dude.


Hahah, good comparison and I cannot agree more. There's something about the height is it? ;)

[asch]

Oh come on... Russians never belived, do not believe and will not believe anybody. Mistrusts it's so common that became just a norm in daily life...
Switek, seriously. p-) you not a bad guy, but sometimes you post things so fvcking stereotypical and laughable...

[Switek]

Switek, seriously. p-) you not a bad guy, but sometimes you post things so fvcking stereotypical and laughable...

Yerap, youre right, I forgot about your love with Germans... :)

[asch]

Yerap, youre right, I forgot about your love with Germans... :)

sometime, here, on MPnet i feel myself like a man who talk to the wall.:|

[Switek]

sometime, here, on MPnet i feel myself like a man who talk to the wall.:|

me too, mate... :|

[jamaKinson]

me too, mate... :|
Take a week off from this site Switek. Please.

[Switek]

Take a week off from this site Switek. Please.

I'll take...

[Mamont]

I realy doubt it will create any war*, tenisions yes, cold war 2 maybe, craks in EU solidarity for sure, higher gas and oil bill...
Now there isn't any country in the world that could withstand US attack, so in case of inevitable US aggresion for whatever reasons the only way to ensure at least some degree of safety is to posses the power to strike US allies in hope that danger they would face will force them to try to stop the US. The only weapon, that could pose such a treat is nuke, and better more than one. So with that ABM, and possibly more to come along with other systems, US ensuring that it will meddle in the affairs of other countries without even possibility of a real opposition. Media front is dominated by western companies, so public campaign for self defence is not possible either. Iran and NKorea are a perfect contemporary examples.



If yanks won't propose us realy good deal its not worth pissing off half of europe just because they feel unsafe. They want to arsef.ck us without any lube and our goverments are stupid enough to go for it:/

Man, your goverment will receive it's fair share. So even without popular support they will adopt that system. So far for democracy. And even if popular opposition will be open and strong enough to avert that deal, i believe US and polish media will start campaigh, intense and convincing enough to turn the tables in favor for ABM. So far for democracy again.



What i would realy like to see is EU common defence, with friendly relations with both Russia and US but not depending on any of those two. Sadly politics are stupid or evil enough to spoil it.

As i remember Russia already proposed that without achieving any success.



you still have enough nukes to flaten whole world twice ABM or not noone will risk MAD situation
You obviously do not posess the knowledge of current and estimated russian nuclear potential in 10 years, it's abilities and how many missiles will survive the first sudden strike, otherwise that line would never appeared in your mind.

[perdurabo]

so you don't have enough nukes? WOW. there was an old joke, witch nationality Amor the god of love is? Russian, he is flying around the world with bare ass, armed to the teath, shooting to everybody and saying its for sake of love... ;) now if you don't have enough nukes where is this world coming to?

As for goverment, yes, only our goverment will benefit from it, normal citizens won't.

As for Russian proposal, sorry but CEEurope won't belive any of your proposals, and will allways search for some hidden agendas, you know Russians have long history of invading us. If this proposal would come from UK, Germany, France, Spain, Italy or other EU member we would have less problems with it. Its not modern Russians fault but wounds are still fresh here, Germans did better job in this matter.

[Mamont]

so you don't have enough nukes? now if you don't have enough nukes where is this world coming to?
Do yourself a favor - learn. Than it will be easier for you to follow.



As for Russian proposal, sorry but CEEurope won't belive any of your proposals, and will allways search for some hidden agendas,
Yes, they simply cannot stop living in the past.



you know Russians have long history of invading us.
What "us"? If you mean Poland, than both our countries have a long history of hostilies. No need to lay blame on Russia only.



wounds are still fresh here, Germans did better job in this matter.
Wounds still fresh not because of russian meddling, but because Poland simply likes to disturb them. Same for baltic countries.

Not trying to get off-topic but what Germans did better in what matter?

[Mamont]

Interesting read

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=ENG20070220&articleId=4873

[dostanes.do.tlamy]

Duck and the Czech PM. They look like Flip and Flap rofl
http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/0/3931/z3931020X.jpg
Duck and czech uncle ****er
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QRd8KMPpjE

[perdurabo]

heh, i see our older brothers Czechs have same problems as we have with our potatoes ;)

[Kap2406]

Interesting read

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=ENG20070220&articleId=4873

I agree... Interesting perspective on the current situation, however this statement is a BS:
Four months earlier, Russia successfully tested its Bulava ICBM, a naval version of the Topol-M. It was launched from one of its Typhoon-class ballistic missile submarines in the White Sea, travelling a thousand miles before hitting a dummy target successfully on the Kamchatka Peninsula. The Bulava missiles were to be installed on Russian Borey-class nuclear submarines beginning 2008.
Bulava keeps failing, and it doesn't look like it will enter service on schedule.

[shadowsrider]

Yes, they simply cannot stop living in the past.

What "us"? If you mean Poland, than both our countries have a long history of hostilies. No need to lay blame on Russia only.


There is a difference between living in past and learning from part. I agree lots of Poles lives in past. But is Putin new type of Russian leader of completly new quality? The answer is no.

Russians has similiar look at the history as Poles - look "long suffering mother Russia" thread quite illustrates it. But please know the balance: Poland made 1 aggressive was in XVII century agaist Russia while Russia occupied Poland for 125 years of partitions, 50 years of communism plus some 50 -100 years of military presence in Poland before partitions. 2 bloody uprisings, several aggressive wars counting since XVII century. So...? Does it give the picture?

[CHERK]

Oh... come on... I apprieciate your deep intuition. You know mate how my minds works. Well, well you should check up some more threads. Simplification is a proof of ignorance ;)
It’s hard not see you replies as you post like there is no tomorrow (no double meaning intended in light of this thread).

Enough with this philology masturbation.



There is a difference between living in past and learning from part. I agree lots of Poles lives in past. But is Putin new type of Russian leader of completly new quality? The answer is no.

Russians has similiar look at the history as Poles - look "long suffering mother Russia" thread quite illustrates it. But please know the balance: Poland made 1 aggressive was in XVII century agaist Russia while Russia occupied Poland for 125 years of partitions, 50 years of communism plus some 50 -100 years of military presence in Poland before partitions. 2 bloody uprisings, several aggressive wars counting since XVII century. So...? Does it give the picture?
When one has an upper hand it tries to broaden it’s influence. It just happens that for the most part Russia was/is more powerful than Poland.

[daily666]

[FONT=Verdana]When one has an upper hand it tries to broaden it’s influence. It just happens that for the most part Russia was/is more powerful than Poland.

I'm thinking, it that has to be like that all the time? Hope it won't be the case in the future.

[CHERK]

I'm thinking, it that has to be like that all the time? Hope it won't be the case in the future.

Human nature. Hard to go against your instincts.
I don’t believe anything will change in the foreseeable future.

[daily666]

Human nature. Hard to go against your instincts.
I don’t believe anything will change in the foreseeable future.

It's not human nature. USA don't invade Canada or Mexico just because it's much stronger. Makes you think, eh?

[CPL Trevoga]

It's not human nature. USA don't invade Canada or Mexico just because it's much stronger. Makes you think, eh?

Modern democratic Russia never invaded anybody, it's a very peaceful country. Ways that Russian males invent to avaid serving in the army now days, I don't think there is any worry for new democratic Poland.

BTW US tried to invade Canada in 1812 and US invaded Mexico on a few occasions.
USMC hymn starts, "From the halls of Montezuma....." US even took whole south-west from Mexico.

[CHERK]

It's not human nature. USA don't invade Canada or Mexico just because it's much stronger. Makes you think, eh?

US is an exact example of my point. Establishing your influence, doesn’t always mean military action. Why would US invade Canada or Mexico if Washington anyway have a last word in dialogue.
Earlier in the day use of force was normal today there are different means to achieve your goals, but, imo, the goals are stayed the same.

Actually I do believe there are more “better” people than “bad” ones, but usually the posts of authority are held by those who are willing to go a looong way and at the end it’s them who decide on a national strategy. The Polish poll results mentioned here are the example of it.

[daily666]

Modern democratic Russia never invaded anybody, it's a very peaceful country. Ways that Russian males invent to avaid serving in the army now days, I don't think there is any worry for new democratic Poland.

Good to hear and I think the same way. I see it that concumptionism of many Poles and Russians would not allow any of us go into any kind of war. As for this, I once went into vodka drinking contest with Russians and I lost miserably, don't wanna try that anymore :D

[Herrmannek]

Modern democratic Russia never invaded anybody, it's a very peaceful country. Ways that Russian males invent to avaid serving in the army now days, I don't think there is any worry for new democratic Poland.

Its not modern nor its democratic...and we are talking about country that any link with even facade democracy is less than ~16 years old. Its like saying that a dog doesn't bite after seeing it for a really brief moment of a relative peace...

BTW don't want to nitpick. Poland is, counting from the start, second oldest still active democracy in Europe... I don't need to mention that any breaks in this were always with share of the Russia.

We had our lesson learned in past centuries... Countries and Nations don't change in one day, decades or even centuries. Democracy in Russia is weak as a straw, we are closely watching it and prepare for the worse.

[daily666]

Its not modern nor its democratic...and we are talking about country that any link with even facade democracy is less than ~16 years old. Its like saying that a dog doesn't bite after seeing it for a really brief moment of a relative peace...

BTW don't want to nitpick. Poland is, counting from the start, second oldest still active democracy in Europe... I don't need to mention that any breaks in this were always with share of the Russia.

We had our lesson learned in past centuries... Countries and Nations don't change in one day, decades or even centuries. Democracy in Russia is weak as a straw, we are closely watching it and prepare for the worse.

Does that make your **** longer than theirs herrman? :cantbeli:

.

[Herrmannek]

Good to hear and I think the same way. I see it that consumptionism of many Poles and Russians would not allow any of us go into any kind of war. As for this, I once went into vodka drinking contest with Russians and I lost miserably, don't wanna try that anymore :D

This never stopped anyone from engaging into the war, actually there is strong opposite correlation. I haven't heard about poor and weak country starting the war, and with what if not with wealth and well being of its citizen we should measure wealth of the whole country... Now Russia is weak, it has its problems, but it will not last forever.. Better safe than sorry.

[Herrmannek]

Does that make your **** longer than theirs herrman? :cantbeli:

.

How you got to that conclusion.

[asch]

Its not modern nor its democratic...and we are talking about country that any link with even facade democracy is less than ~16 years old. Its like saying that a dog doesn't bite after seeing it for a really brief moment of a relative peace...

BTW don't want to nitpick. Poland is, counting from the start, second oldest still active democracy in Europe... I don't need to mention that any breaks in this were always with share of the Russia.

We had our lesson learned in past centuries... Countries and Nations don't change in one day, decades or even centuries. Democracy in Russia is weak as a straw, we are closely watching it and prepare for the worse.
wondrous and wise insight! so, do you learning russian to speak with yer new masters in future occupation? [/sarcasm]

we have such thickheads here too. i think they never changes, we must just wait them to extinct.
p-)

[Mamont]

:) "Poland strongg!!1!" and all that. Wow.

And about "lesson learned in past centuries"(c)Herrmannek - in case of any major conflict Poland will bend to the will of the victor like it used to. End of story.

[daily666]

How you got to that conclusion.

Have you ever been to Russia so you can state such judgements like it's not being modern? Democracy isn't it's strongest point I agree. Also You had to add that Poland was the second oldest democracy in Europe. Why didn't you add that it was also the shortest (lasted 2 years) . So, we've had democracy as long as Russia does and now I see it endangered beceuse of supid Kaczynski duckheads.

[daily666]

wondrous and wise insight! so, do you learning russian to speak with yer new masters in future occupation? [/sarcasm]

we have such thickheads here too. i think they never changes, we must just wait them to extinct.
p-)

Yeah he's propably digging the foxhole as we speak.

[Herrmannek]

wondrous and wise insight! so, do you learning russian to speak with yer new masters in future occupation? [/sarcasm]

we have such thickheads here too. i think they never changes, we must just wait them to extinct.
p-)
Actually I learn Russian(back to old days, starting this monday)... As for thickhead. I'm not proposing picking a fight. I wish Russians all best, I'm only afraid it may happen on our expense, as it happened before. Moreover nothing on earth and sky is telling it will not happen again

So if we will go back to the main topic, I'm sure a small insurance in form of US military engagement in the region will do no harm to anyone...

Let show you logic I'm following here:

I'm sure everyone old enough bought insurance for his house, if you would look outside the window that day, you would notice sky was clear and free from thunders. Why? Because no insurance company will sell you insurance when clouds and thunders will gather above you house. This is whats happening here. While we wish for the best, we prepare for the worse...

[Herrmannek]

Have you ever been to Russia so you can state such judgements like it's not being modern? Democracy isn't it's strongest point I agree. Also You had to add that Poland was the second oldest democracy in Europe. Why didn't you add that it was also the shortest (lasted 2 years) . So, we've had democracy as long as Russia does and now I see it endangered beceuse of supid Kaczynski duckheads.
Do I need to be somewhere to know something? Its absurd...

Shortest? You of course forgot that prior to that we had a 2 centuries of experience (quite successful) with Nobles' Democracy. To the extent, it wasn't much different than what we got now and then...

As for Kaczynscy being threat to democracy, don't make me laugh... You are smarter than that. You don't need to repeat mantra of hypocrites who by voice of the democracy haven't got what they wanted.

[CPL Trevoga]

Its not modern nor its democratic...and we are talking about country that any link with even facade democracy is less than ~16 years old. Its like saying that a dog doesn't bite after seeing it for a really brief moment of a relative peace...

BTW don't want to nitpick. Poland is, counting from the start, second oldest still active democracy in Europe... I don't need to mention that any breaks in this were always with share of the Russia.

We had our lesson learned in past centuries... Countries and Nations don't change in one day, decades or even centuries. Democracy in Russia is weak as a straw, we are closely watching it and prepare for the worse.

That's a good point, but only in the past 16 years Russia became democratic and as you correctly pointed out people take a while to change. So you can't expect for Russia to build a democratic institutions like in W Europe overnight.
In my mind hostility from Kaczinsky's hostility to Russia is surprising, because it's probably in Polish interest to have Russia democratic as democracies do not go to war with each other.

[Herrmannek]

That's a good point, but only in the past 16 years Russia became democratic and as you correctly pointed out people take a while to change. So you can't expect for Russia to build a democratic institutions like in W Europe overnight.
In my mind hostility from Kaczinsky's hostility to Russia is surprising, because it's probably in Polish interest to have Russia democratic as democracies do not go to war with each other.

I believe someone lied to you... As for now Kaczynscy aren't hostile in any way toward Russia, believe me. Don't misinterpret their actions. First we have two main problems, energetic security and political discrimination of Polish products. We want to solve this problems systematically on EU level so EU would act as a one. If this would succeed anyone who cares about his business would not risk doing bad things to any targeted member of the union because it would impact way other members would interact with him. Fact is those problems are mostly related to Russia. But its a clear effect of Russia playing those rouge cards in their daily politics. Putin for his internal aims is trying present those issues like it would be open hostility toward Russia but obviously it isn't, we keep our businesses honest, and we are using legal means and trying to achieve support of our friends.. Nothing offensive in that. As for the rocket shield, its our long term security policy to tie our relationships with US as strong as possible, and it would have nothing to do with Russia. If Putin wouldn't like to use it as a point to prove how hostile we are toward him. More he threated us with his atomic missiles in the process(its not the first time), proving our and my point. Russia isn't enough stable democracy to relay on wishful thinking, we need a friends that will come to help if hell will break loose....

And if you are puzzled why you have been misinformed.

First Kaczynscy are media unpopular government. They were chosen by the people against the mainstream media. For starter it makes anything they say coming out the country heavily distorted. Second they are right wing so they aren't well seen in pinko-commie Europe their officials and media. Third, very important in this case. Russia have strong ties to particular members of the EU, Those particular members happen to be 2 strongest countries in the Union. Those ties in many cases are stronger than ties of those countries with EU. Those ties are multilevel, personal(good example is Schroeder, who right after leaving the office got super well payed job in Russian company ), historical, financial, while Poland is in disfavor, Germany and France are artificially favored on Russians markets... This all makes media strongly biased against the Brothers. Don't expect you get reliable info if you will not listen directly to the guys in context and in original language. Thats would be all. Only war we are preparing now, and only on arguments, is to bring back conservatives and catholic identity as a mainstream in Europe...

[daily666]

If they're right wing than I'm Mata Hari.

As for the rest, won't comment on that as it's not the place for it but I agree at one point, our govt. is not hostile towards Russia but sometimes makes stupid moves which makes Russia angry i.e. Kaczynski was a Mayor of Warsaw when that stupid Dudayev Crossing idea popped up, and he approved it. I think those small things are overplayed by media on both sides.

[Herrmannek]

If they're right wing than I'm Mata Hari.

As for the rest, won't comment on that as it's not the place for it but I agree at one point, our govt. is not hostile towards Russia but sometimes makes stupid moves which makes Russia angry i.e. Kaczynski was a Mayor of Warsaw when that stupid Dudayev Crossing idea popped up, and he approved it. I think those small things are overplayed by media on both sides.

They are much more right wing they are anything else, and in the aspect we are talking about: which is reception of them outside Poland, their conservative stance is only factor taken into consideration (I'm not happy with their solidarity mantra, but this isn't important for me now)...



Lets be clear, we don't know what actually happens in Chechnya, I see so many contradicting reports, both from people I could trust, about who is god and who is bad guy... I would give Kaczynski benefit of doubt on that matter...

[perdurabo]

sorry for off topic:
Herman - they are catholic national socialists definetly NOT right wing,

[Herrmannek]

sorry for off topic:
Herman - they are catholic national socialists definetly NOT right wing,
Next time READ what I wrote... Who cares if they are or not. Problem is this is the way they are described to right wing haters in EU, on the other hand they are described as socialist to socialist haters everywhere else... And to you knowledge they are actually right wing(prawica), especially on Polish/European political scene and this is context we are talking about. Don't compare them to Americans, I can't see we'll get anything reassembling Republicans in any foreseeable feature...

preemptive response:
And stop bringing UPR, they are clowns and if they will not grow up from this they will remain as such...

[daily666]

U.S., Russia Envoys Seek to Cool Tension
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: February 25, 2007
via
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo153x23.gif
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-US-Russia.html
Filed at 12:08 p.m. ET


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The top U.S. and Russian diplomats on Sunday tried to play down concerns about a Cold War revival set off by Russian President Vladimir Putin's claim that Washington is fostering a global arms race.

But Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov could not put aside disagreements about a proposed U.S. missile defense system in Europe.

Lavrov wrote in Sunday's Washington Post that Putin's recent remarks have been widely misinterpreted.

''From the reaction of some Western journalists and politicians, one would think that the Russian president wished to ignite a blast of anti-American rhetoric to spark another Cold War,'' Lavrov wrote.

Rice also denied the rhetoric could push the countries back to Cold War-era relations.

''Russia is not the Soviet Union and we have to recognize that,'' she said. ''We are cooperating with the Russians on a number of fronts, on North Korea, on Iran, in nuclear -- trying to prevent nuclear terrorism.''

Putin said at a conference in Germany this month that the United States ''has overstepped its national borders in every way'' and is promoting a global arms race. His speech and subsequent Russian statements raised concerns about a proposed U.S. missile defense system in Europe that would include facilities in two former Soviet satellites, Poland and the Czech Republic.

Lavrov said Putin's speech reflected objections about the U.S. exerting its power without consulting other countries.

''He called for a world with many centers of influence where different interests work together, multilaterally, to shape a common denominator on global issues,'' Lavrov wrote. ''What should Russia believe when the United States seeks to place anti-missile systems in Eastern Europe?''

Rice said Russia's objections to the missile defense system were unjustified.

''No one would suggest, anyone who knows anything about this, would suggest that somehow 10 interceptors deployed in Poland are going to threaten the thousands of warheads in the Russian deterrent,'' Rice said. ''It's a ludicrous claim.''

U.S. officials have said the interceptors being proposed for Europe could be overwhelmed easily by the size and speed of Russia's vast arsenal of intercontinental nuclear missiles and that the system is aimed at counteracting a potential threat from Iran.

Other parts of the system outside of Europe would be aimed at defending against a possible attack from North Korea.

But in an interview published Sunday, Lavrov repeated Russian concerns that the system would in fact be directed elsewhere.

''To retaliate against threats, even imagined ones, radars and anti-missile launch pads wouldn't seem necessary, because the trajectories of the imagined missiles flying from Iran or North Korea go in an absolutely different direction,'' Lavrov was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency.

In his op-ed, Lavrov also addressed NATO's expansion into what was the Soviet sphere of influence.

''With the Warsaw Pact dissolved for more than 15 years, why does NATO still spread toward Russian borders?'' he wrote.

Rice said NATO no longer threatened Russia.

''I think the expansion of NATO and the expansion of the European Union is, in fact, one of the great stories of the post-Cold War time,'' she said. ''Russia has nothing to fear by having democracies on its borders.''

Rice was interviewed on ''Fox News Sunday.''

[daily666]

http://www.state.gov/cms_images/map_poland_flag.jpg

According to Polish media, the map obove with a triangle Raczki Elblaskie could show the possible future placement of ABM Missile system in Poland. The map is taken from the site of U.S. Departament of State. As of today speculations where the system could be placed was centering around an area on the northern coast (near Ustka).

http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/pl/

And here's an interesting article
U.S. Missile Defense Plans for Europe

Dan Fried , Assistant Secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs; Air Force Lt. General Henry A. Obering, Director of the U.S. Missile Defense Agency
http://fpc.state.gov/fpc/80958.htm

I liked this one


And as I said, with respect to issues like NATO enlargement, which President Putin raised, with respect to this missile defense system, with respect to certain aspects of Russian democracy or energy policy, we have spoken of our disagreements. With respect to other areas -- cooperation on Iran, on North Korea, hopefully cooperation on Kosovo -- we look forward to more of it. And we've got to be able to do both at the same time. Poland does the same thing. You speak out strongly in defense of your interests, yet you cooperate with Russia wherever possible. Very wise policy. We try to do the same.