Serbia lines up wholesale rejection of Kosovo plan

[Lov3ll]

By Matt Robinson
*******

Serbia will reject every element of a U.N. plan for Kosovo that points to the creation of "another Albanian state" during final talks beginning on Wednesday in Vienna, a senior Serbian official said.
Aleksandar Simic, a member of the Serbian delegation to the talks, said he expected U.N. envoy Martti Ahtisaari to hold real negotiations, rather than "pull the wool over the eyes" of the public in order to rush his plan to the U.N. Security Council.
"Our delegation, in accordance with the mandate received from the Serbian parliament, will take a stand on every element that undermines the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Serbian state," Simic told Serb state television late on Monday.

"In other words, elements which imply the creation of another Albanian state in the Balkans, on Serbian territory."
Ahtisaari opened talks exactly one year ago, but they yielded little but disagreement. On February 2 he unveiled his plan for the independence of Kosovo, eight years since NATO bombs drove out Serb forces.
The former Finnish president has said he is open to "adjustments" but does not believe in "miracles". The two sides will have until March 10 to lodge complaints before he sends the final version to the United Nations Security Council.


Simic, an adviser to Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica, said Ahtisaari appeared to be in a rush.
"What is key is whether we will really have room to negotiate, or will it just be a performance to pull the wool over the eyes of the ... public and for Ahtisaari to say compromise is impossible so he can go to the U.N. Security Council as soon as possible?"
Kostunica insists the Security Council will throw out a plan amounting to the amputation of 15 percent of Serbian territory.
Belgrade is banking on a Russian veto, which Moscow has hinted at in the event a solution is imposed on its Balkan ally.

Ninety percent of Kosovo's 2 million people are ethnic Albanians. They have been under U.N. administration since 1999, after a Serb counter-insurgency war that killed 10,000 and drove out almost one million.
Serbia has offered broad autonomy for the province that is the cradle of the nation, but the West sees no prospect of re-imposing Serb rule.
Simic said Serbia would reject recommendations that Kosovo control its own borders, have its own army, join international bodies and assume its share of Serbian assets.
"Everything that is not related to substantial autonomy will be disputed by our side," he said.

http://today.*******.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2007-02-20T144007Z_01_ROB975170_RTRUKOC_0_US-SERBIA-KOSOVO-TALKS.xml&src=rss

[INAT]

No surprise on Serbia's stand.Would any country give away 15% of its territory? Martti Ahtisaari is trying to give away something that is not his to give away.And the article says 10 thousand dead try under 3,000 on all
sides Serb, Roma, Albanian. These are not negotiations
This is just international pressure on Serbia to hand over the goods and smile while being robbed.

[apm]

on both sides there is a lack of will to take real efforts to find a solution for the status of the province. nonetheless people cant be ruled against their will, and i understand the idea behind th un plans which consider serbia as that party that can bear a decision to it´s disadvantage more than the kosovars could bear it.

[Kaapeli]

What does Serbia need 2 million Albanians for? Why hang onto this area when they just can't get along together?

[RSKKnin]

What does Serbia need 2 million Albanians for? Why hang onto this area when they just can't get along together?

because there was no 2 millions Albanians in Kosovo and if state started checking their status lot of them would have to leave because they are illegal immigrants

[127th Knights]

on both sides there is a lack of will to take real efforts to find a solution for the status of the province. nonetheless people cant be ruled against their will, and i understand the idea behind th un plans which consider serbia as that party that can bear a decision to it´s disadvantage more than the kosovars could bear it.

Serbs don't want to live with them...Serbs want them to go back to the Albanian country that they already have and stay out of Serbia. I can tell you right now that if those albanians in kosovo were forced to show deeds, passports, papers, and any other documentation proving their legal residence there wouldn't be half that could...

[INAT]

I see in so many articles this phrase " 90% of Kosovo and Metohija's population are albanian" or"the overwhelming majority" but Kosovo is part of Serbia and
the albanians are a minority.Just like the Serbs in croatia were.The info about Kosovo coming from the western media is presented to the reader in a one sided fashion (nothing new when it comes to Serbia).I will try to give a comparative example. Now its not an identical example but in a couple of years (if not already) in California Hispanics will be the majority.So yes they are the majority in California but when you look at America as a whole they may not be.The reason Serbia is against
giving away its land does not need to be explained .It is our land poor or rich no matter what conditions are in place currently it is our land why is that hard to understand there are World Heritage Sites all across Kosovo and Metohija. Christian churches from medival times.If Kosovo goes so go the sacred and historical sites.If Kosovo goes one of the things we still have will be reduced PRIDE.Every Serb from a young age is taught about the history of the Serbian people and a majority of that history took place and will take place in this region that NATO/EU/US is so eager to take away from us.I can appreciate the albanian sides argument for independence but the loss for the Serbian people will be staggering.These are my personal feelings and any negative remarks, ridicule or sarcasm I get from it will not change that.CCCC

[Sharkattack]

I'm in Kosovo at present and guess which organisation is getting the blame for Kosovo's inability to achieve independence..the UN.
A radical group calling itself KAN is constantly stirring up trouble in an attempt to mobilise ethnic Albanians to attack UN staff and instalations..with very little success. On Monday night three UN vehicles were blown up by IED's in Pristina. No injuries though. Read the latest propaganda email from the group:

KLA claims responsibility for Pristina blast
PRIŠTINA -- Kosovo Liberation Army says it blew up three UN vehicles in Pristina last night.
The blast caused no injuries but raised tensions amid ongoing negotiations on Kosovo's future.
Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) distributed a statement to the media by e-mail claiming to have set up the explosion. Kosovo Police Service is yet to determine the authenticity of the statement.
Kosovo Liberation Army , now a disbanded force that fought against Serb forces during the 1998-1999 conflict, said it had regrouped in order to "avenge the death of two protesters" during a recent demonstration in Pristina, adding it would avenge "any future injustice" against its people.
NATO-led peacekeepers sealed the blast area in downtown Pristina, and were investigating, police spokesman Veton Elshani said.
The cause of the explosion was not clear, but police suspected the UN mission had been the target of an attack, he said. A civilian vehicle was also damaged.
The blast came 10 days after two people were killed in clashes between police and ethnic Albanian protesters who were objecting to a UN proposal for Kosovo's final status.
Kosovo's Prime Minister Agim Ceku, who visited the blast site late Monday, condemned the attack as "an act of those opposing the process of Kosovo's independence."
"Such criminal acts are absolutely unacceptable for Kosovo's people and its institutions," said Kosovo's President Fatmir Sejdiu, demanding that those behind the blast be caught.

Sejdiu says that last night’s explosion against Kosova’s interests
Kosova President, Fatmir Sejdiu condemned today the explosion which took place last night and the damaging of UNMIK vehicles, adding that such criminal acts are absolutely unacceptable for institutions and the citizens of Kosova.

[127th Knights]

Absolutely...the albanians need to realize that "its their independence to lose". The more of a sh*t storm they stir up...the more barbaric they look like. I mean I don't mind...maybe Serbia will even come out of this looking like a victim ;-) I mean...a rape victim's still a victim.

[apm]

the albanians are a minority.Just like the Serbs in croatia were.The info about Kosovo coming from the western media is presented to the reader in a one sided fashion (nothing new when it comes to Serbia)
unfortunately i must admit that the reporting of the media could really be not well-balanced.
however, i doubt that scientific work report not well-balanced as well, and every encyclopedia i have here says me that the population in the kosovo province consists of 88 percent albanians, 7 percent serbians and 5 percent members of minorities like gorani, bosnians and roma. furthermore some 400000 kosovars, partly expelled, partly fled before the war of 1999, and who live abroad would like to return if the kosovo question has been solved.
therefore the kosovo albanians would be clear a majority, and if you now doubt this numbers, i would call you paranoid because i question that even the scientists have set up an alliance against serbia. on purely democratic base i would say if the majority confirms (i do not mean the ethnic majority now but the numerical majority of the population of kosovo), that they do not like to be governed by belgrade anymore, the serbians can at least not always continue like nothing had happened and pretend they had not heard this wish.
nonetheless i also see that the un plan must offer better points regarding the security of the serbian part of population.

[Sharkattack]

In truth the Albanians are the majority in Kosovo by far. Serbs are lumped together with the Romas and other groups as a minority of Kosovo province.
That is the reason why Serbia won't recognise the proposal because it does not offer enough reasurance that the Serbs will not be run out of Kosovo.

[themacedonian]

In truth the Albanians are the majority in Kosovo by far. Serbs are lumped together with the Romas and other groups as a minority of Kosovo province.
That is the reason why Serbia won't recognise the proposal because it does not offer enough reasurance that the Serbs will not be run out of Kosovo.

FACT: Kosovo Albanians are majority in Kosovo by far like French in Quebec.
FACT: Kosovo Albanians were used to stir trouble to bring down Milosevic.
FACT: NATO bombed Serbia for Kosovo and took over Kosovo administration in June 1999.

FACT: UN Resolution 1244.

United Nations Security Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council) Resolution 1244 defined the legal status of Kosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo) as a UN protectorate, under its administration, while being legally an autonomous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_entity) constituency of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia).
It was adopted on 10 June, 1999.

The main effects of Resolution 1244 were to:

Place Kosovo under transitional UN administration (currently performed by the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo, UNMIK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNMIK)), while denying Serbia any role in Kosovo's governance;
Authorize a NATO-led peacekeeping force in Kosovo (KFOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFOR));
Authorize a Serbian-led peacekeeping force in Kosovo up to 999 soldiers to guard cultural treasure;
Direct UNMIK to establish provisional institutions of local self-government in Kosovo;
Reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (i.e., Kosovo was to remain part of the FRY, to which Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia) is now the recognized successor state) and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of UNSCR 1244 (an annex that envisions, inter alia, a Kosovo Future Status Process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Future_Status_Process));
Authorize the UN to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status (this process, the Kosovo Future Status Process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Future_Status_Process) began in late 2005 under the auspices of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martti_Ahtisaari)).
FACT: Milosevic was toppled on 6 October 2000. Arrested 31 March 2001.

FACT: Albanians in Macedonia helped by Albanians from Kosovo started a war in Macedonia in February 2001 with NATO pretending not to see anything. AFTER the Butcher of the Balkans Milosevic was in jail.

FACT: NATO signed a deal to have Serbian peacekeepers in Kosovo but went back on its deal. It is clear in black and white.

FACT: Not a single Albanian has been arrested for any murder of Serbian in Kosovo. Even if they are majority by far Serbs are humans and not dogs. Rule of law should be implemented.

FACT: Kosovo will be independent but do the means justify the end?

QUESTION: How can you ask people to ignore the facts.

[apm]

FACT: Kosovo Albanians were used to stir trouble to bring down Milosevic.
used by whom? i also think that albanians were responsible for an exaggerate in their reports of the situation. but exaggeration does not mean that there is no true core of the story.


FACT: Albanians in Macedonia helped by Albanians from Kosovo started a war in Macedonia in February 2001 with NATO pretending not to see anything. AFTER the Butcher of the Balkans Milosevic was in jail.
uprising of albanian nationalists is a fact, the support of kosovars is a supposition only due to the logical connection. supporters came from everywhere were albanian communities are present (for example a german of albanian origin was arrested in 2002 for smuggling weapons into the balkans to support the roots of the uck)
nato did not pretend to see nothing, in fact SACEUR authorized operations essential harvest to disarm albanian insurgents and operation amber fox to protect governmental officials and foreign monitoring staff. especially essential harvest was very successful, the peacekeepers destroyed some thousands weapons.



FACT: NATO signed a deal to have Serbian peacekeepers in Kosovo but went back on its deal. It is clear in black and white.

i have no clue if this was in fact part of the resolution of the security council, but it makes no sense to me. forget for a moment now what you think about this war, officially serbia´s actions were the reason to start the bombings so it´s the question whether serbian offcials would have been accepted.


FACT: Not a single Albanian has been arrested for any murder of Serbian in Kosovo. Even if they are majority by far Serbs are humans and not dogs. Rule of law should be implemented.
source? the actual situation favours everyone who wants to commit a crime, not only albanians, like everywhere else where the **** hit the fan rofl


FACT: Kosovo will be independent but do the means justify the end?


QUESTION: How can you ask people to ignore the facts.

i admit you are right in some points here, nonetheless we shouldn´t ignore the wish of the most kosovars not to be governed by belgrade anymore.

[TehDott]

Serbs Reply... guys pack you shotguns we goin to war.. yeeehaaaa==== Kosovo Respnse===== let them come so nato can bomb them again hahaahahhahahh it will postpone their EU entrance and they will get tougher sanctions

[RSKKnin]

unfortunately i must admit that the reporting of the media could really be not well-balanced.
however, i doubt that scientific work report not well-balanced as well, and every encyclopedia i have here says me that the population in the kosovo province consists of 88 percent albanians, 7 percent serbians and 5 percent members of minorities like gorani, bosnians and roma. furthermore some 400000 kosovars, partly expelled, partly fled before the war of 1999, and who live abroad would like to return if the kosovo question has been solved.
therefore the kosovo albanians would be clear a majority, and if you now doubt this numbers, i would call you paranoid because i question that even the scientists have set up an alliance against serbia. on purely democratic base i would say if the majority confirms (i do not mean the ethnic majority now but the numerical majority of the population of kosovo), that they do not like to be governed by belgrade anymore, the serbians can at least not always continue like nothing had happened and pretend they had not heard this wish.
nonetheless i also see that the un plan must offer better points regarding the security of the serbian part of population.

it doesn't make sense because there are still between 100 000-200 000 Serbs living in Kosovo and there are 200 000 - 300 000 refugees (Serbs and other minorities) so how can u have population that is 88% albanian??? There are only around 2 million people in KOSOVO!!!

Well Serbs in Croatia did not want to be governed by Zagreb and they were even a constitutional people there not a minority so what did they get???
Serbs in Bosnia dont want to be governed by Sarajevo but what happens????

[RSKKnin]

Serbs Reply... guys pack you shotguns we goin to war.. yeeehaaaa==== Kosovo Respnse===== let them come so nato can bomb them again hahaahahhahahh it will postpone their EU entrance and they will get tougher sanctions

u think Serbs care that much about European Union???? the majority of people voted for parties that are against independence of Kosovo even if it means not going to EU!!!

[apm]

it doesn't make sense because there are still between 100 000-200 000 Serbs living in Kosovo and there are 200 000 - 300 000 refugees (Serbs and other minorities) so how can u have population that is 88% albanian??? There are only around 2 million people in KOSOVO!!!

Well Serbs in Croatia did not want to be governed by Zagreb and they were even a constitutional people there not a minority so what did they get???
Serbs in Bosnia dont want to be governed by Sarajevo but what happens????

compromises were created. in reality it is simply in such a way that in a compromise those get the most who have a certain political weight.

a concrete example: in germany live some 50000 danes. if these danes want now to have their own state, nobody will seriously care about their wishes, because in the concerning federal state live 2.8 million people and in germany nearly 83 millions (although they would start negotations because we live in a democracy). but if now the about 12 million bavarians say, we want to become independent, then nobody can refuse to talk anymore.

nevertheless, the background of the whole debate is the necessity of a solution. since in the case of doubt neither the albanians nor the serbians would stop using violence against the other ethnic gorup.

and now back to the numbers again, all informations i found did cover themselves very well, namely statistics of the imf, the osce, un and the peace research institute sipri. according to those figures in the province live about 1.75 million Albanians, 140000 Serbians and 110000 members of the minorities as well as 400000 Albanians, 190000 Serbians and 80000 members of the minorities live as refugees abroad. the refugees are not part of this figures, that would hardly make sense.
so, 88+5+7 = 100 -> quod erat demonstrandum.

@TehDott
serious conversation, any bells ringing? ;)

[Vorian]

apm, I thought that Germany is a federation of states, not like America but sort of. So don't compare it with Serbia....and I think that the Serbs should get rid of Kosovo, no matter how much it might hurt. On the long run, it will help their country.

As a Greek I don't like the hole situation since if trouble starts we are right next to it.

[RSKKnin]

compromises were created. in reality it is simply in such a way that in a compromise those get the most who have a certain political weight.

a concrete example: in germany live some 50000 danes. if these danes want now to have their own state, nobody will seriously care about their wishes, because in the concerning federal state live 2.8 million people and in germany nearly 83 millions (although they would start negotations because we live in a democracy). but if now the about 12 million bavarians say, we want to become independent, then nobody can refuse to talk anymore.

nevertheless, the background of the whole debate is the necessity of a solution. since in the case of doubt neither the albanians nor the serbians would stop using violence against the other ethnic gorup.

and now back to the numbers again, all informations i found did cover themselves very well, namely statistics of the imf, the osce, un and the peace research institute sipri. according to those figures in the province live about 1.75 million Albanians, 140000 Serbians and 110000 members of the minorities as well as 400000 Albanians, 190000 Serbians and 80000 members of the minorities live as refugees abroad. the refugees are not part of this figures, that would hardly make sense.
so, 88+5+7 = 100 -> quod erat demonstrandum.

@TehDott
serious conversation, any bells ringing? ;)

Well Serbs live in Republic Srpska (Bosnia is made up of Serb Republic and Bos.&Croat Federation) and they make up 90% of that entity so they also should get independence....


1.75 million Albanians + 400000 Albanians but where did u get that number???? there was no population survey in Kosovo in last 15 years so all of those numbers are not valid....also significant number of those albanians do not have Serbian documents so than can be easily deported ....

i hope Russia doesnt betray Serbia now and if they dont Kosovo will never get independence.....

[apm]

apm, I thought that Germany is a federation of states, not like America but sort of. So don't compare it with Serbia....and I think that the Serbs should get rid of Kosovo, no matter how much it might hurt. On the long run, it will help their country.

as a Greek I don't like the hole situation since if trouble starts we are right next to it.

indeed this is right, but for the comparison are only the proportions of importance, because RSKKnin listed the example croatia, a country in which the serbian minority likewise amounts only 4.5 percent. my comparison should illustrate as an answer to his question that this is a group which does not unite enough influence all together.

and it is merely a national pride which stops the serbians from agreeing to the plan. kosovo is the most under-developed and economically the weakest province of serbia, so it actually hinders the national integrity of the country, besides the fact that it´s population desperately tries to flee from serbian rule. the only real reason not to agree to the plan is the point concerning the security of the serbian minority in kosovo. the un thinks to be able to guarantee the security because kfor shall remain for an additional time, and that the racism has shrunk if the peacekeepers leave the country once upon a time. but what if this does not occur?

[cinoeye]

Independent Kosovo=war cooking and it will be ready to serve in about 10 years.
We will never give up Kosovo. That's it.
Take it from us, we will get it back, maybe not right away, but that day will come!
So make a smart desition and find a compromise solution that will make better and more peacefull future for of people who live there!

[R.D.]

Take it from us, we will get it back, maybe not right away, but that day will come!


Well, be prepared for a long wait because NATO is gonna bet there for a "while". lol Good luck on your plans anyway.

[Vorian]

Kosovo will not remain independant for long, except if the West provides really good protection. Sooner or later, mother Albania will start to make issues about unification etc. If things get to this, there will be war. No doubt about it. What's left is to see who participates.

[cinoeye]

Well, be prepared for a long wait because NATO is gonna bet there for a "while". lol Good luck on your plans anyway.
Well we waited for 400 years of Ottoman rule, we can wait for NATO to leave.
Just wait and NATO will be stabed in the back by those who they came to protect.

[127th Knights]

Well, be prepared for a long wait because NATO is gonna bet there for a "while". lol Good luck on your plans anyway.

Oh yeah...I'm sure NATO is really interested in having 18 year old kids getting shot and killed while FOX news reports Muslim oppression of Christians. That'd look real good to the 100+ million southern baptists in the US...real good let me tell ya...

[Knez Eru]

That's the catch. FOX won't report it.

[INAT]

apm where are you getting your info on Kosovo and Methohija? I am sorry it just is ridiculous.Look Kosovo has a history that if the albanians were in power they
persecuted the Serbs and when the Serbs were in power the persecuted the albanians but at least Belgrade made everyone who lived in Yugoslavia give a little piece of their monthly wage to subsidise Kosovo yeah remember that.If the albanians get Kosovo I can see a SKLA=Serbian Kosovo Liberation Army formingroflI mean we know guerilla war .My point is the region has been Serb vs albanian for over 100 years no NATO no EU no UN is going to put this fire out.It is up to the local population the regular people on both sides saying peace we want peace (if that is possible).

[SerbPVO]

Well, be prepared for a long wait because NATO is gonna bet there for a "while". lol Good luck on your plans anyway.

So? We will join NATO and destroy the scum from the inside.
Russia may help too.

Hitler and Mussolini occupied Kosovo in 1941...where are they now?
Nothing last forever;)

[Ludipipo]

"Be There" ™

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Maybe they could keep Kosovo as a permanent UN protectorate forever?

[INAT]

Megaraptor;2324065']Maybe they could keep Kosovo as a permanent UN protectorate forever?


No.Eventually scores will be settled.You have to look at history to see and understand what will be in the future.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

No.Eventually scores will be settled.You have to look at history to see and understand what will be in the future.

My tounge was firmly in my cheek with that post...

[127th Knights]

That's the catch. FOX won't report it.

The tide is changing. The US is scrambling for allies for the war on terror. I'd wager that if a side deal went down between the US and Serbia...we enter NATO, get KOSOVO, and send a brigade to IRAQ. Why not...past leaders have sold themselves for less.

[apm]

apm where are you getting your info on Kosovo and Methohija? I am sorry it just is ridiculous.Look Kosovo has a history that if the albanians were in power they
persecuted the Serbs and when the Serbs were in power the persecuted the albanians but at least Belgrade made everyone who lived in Yugoslavia give a little piece of their monthly wage to subsidise Kosovo yeah remember that.If the albanians get Kosovo I can see a SKLA=Serbian Kosovo Liberation Army formingroflI mean we know guerilla war .My point is the region has been Serb vs albanian for over 100 years no NATO no EU no UN is going to put this fire out.It is up to the local population the regular people on both sides saying peace we want peace (if that is possible).

for sure you find it ridicolous. makes me wonder what copyright stands under the sources you use...
Srpska radikalna stranka, with love ?

p-)

[Fullaut0]

"Be There" ™

I'll head up the Romanian contingent - it'll be just like the old, old, old dayswoot

[Sharkattack]

Megaraptor;2324065']Maybe they could keep Kosovo as a permanent UN protectorate forever?


As in Bosnia there will be a permanent NATO and EU presence for many years to come. It's the nature of the beast.

[AN_TPS_63A]

As in Bosnia there will be a permanent NATO and EU presence for many years to come. It's the nature of the beast.

Bosnia is like DDR, kept by guns together - artifical state. It could last a 100 years, or 10 - who knows, it depends on outside forces.

[apm]

Bosnia is like DDR, kept by guns together - artifical state. It could last a 100 years, or 10 - who knows, it depends on outside forces.

and that´s the only thing both forms of government have in common. you cannot compare the GDR which was a communist clone of the FRG with bosnia that consists to my knowledge of three semi-independent (federation of bosnia and herzegowina, the republic of srpska and the brčko district) states in which three different ethnic groups live whose leaders needed a lot of time to work together. such obstacles did not exist in the GDR, the only thing they had to do was stop people from leaving the country.

[spale]

I would really love to know what an ordinary Europeans actually think of this if they had all the facts. From a neutral source (if such thing exists)
I’m in the UK and huge majority of people when properly explained what is going on there (Kosovo) and when presented with a similar, hypothetical, situation that they can relate to (like Ireland, Scotland or even better Wales), they admit that information served through media is very different at best and that they never actually thought through properly what they are supporting.

Anyone remembers “Wag the Dog” movie?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wag_the_Dog



Coincidence
Less than a month after the movie was released, President Bill Clinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton) was embroiled in a *** scandal arising from his relationship with Monica Lewinsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewinsky_scandal). Over the course of 1998 and early 1999, as the scandal dominated American politics, the US engaged in three military options: Operation Desert Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Fox), a three-day bombing campaign in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) that took place as the U.S. House of Representatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives) debated articles of impeachment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment) against Clinton; Operation Infinite Reach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach), a pair of missile strikes against suspected terrorist targets in Sudan and Afghanistan just three days after Clinton admitted in a nationally televised address (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/lewinsky_address/address.html) that he had an inappropriate relationship with Lewinsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewinsky); and Operation Allied Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Allied_Force), a months-long NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) bombing campaign against Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia) that began just weeks after Clinton was acquitted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquittal) in his Senate impeachment trial.


And before anyone jumps on my back and start with:
“you must be kidding me...”
"yeah, right, thats why Serbia was bombed"
and all those comments, I’m not even implying that’s what happened in Serbia, just trying to POINT OUT THE POWER OF MEDIA by mentioning the movie.

Starting from friends (Brits) that have been in the Army in Bosnia and later Kosovo (and I’m not talking about one or two) said that before deployment, they had attitude:
“lets get there and kick some Serb ass”
but when on the ground where you hear whats really going on with your own ears and speak to people first hand, all of them, but every single one of them admitted that things were not all that black and white, good vs evil as they thought before getting there.
And that in lot (not all) of cases they can absolutely understand Serbs and their grievances.

Some more than others changed their opinion on the things and admit that British media is, well, basically lying to them.

What I’m trying to say is that we can talk all we want, but the World has decided and without MAJOR turn in media coverage and comments on the issue, Kosovo will become independent sooner or later.

I just can’t see Britain or US changing their policies towards Serbia and Kosovo for that matter as if they do everything that they (NATO) have done in the past 10-15 years goes through the window.
That wont happen.

They might try to “compensate” by promising Serbia this and the other, but as far as Kosovo goes, it gone long long time ago.
Serbia lost it more through media and lack of will to do anything about it (unlike Bosnian Muslims and later Albanians using big “consulting” firms to present them in a good way and as pure victims to the world, quite successfully, I have to admit)

RUSSIA: well if they don’t do anything, to at least try very hard to stop Kosovo breaking away without Serbia’s blessing, in my eyes, they will finally become a little, weak, ugly USA wannabe that can't solve nothing.
And that if they continue like that, they won't be able to defend their own, don't mind their friend.

I sincerely hope that this wont happen and that Russia will at last stand up to American: “you have to deliver your war crime suspects to the International War Crime Court”... “oh, and by the way, we don’t allow our citizens, especially our soldiers to be tried at the court... but you go ahead “ attitude
(this was just one of many thing that I can’t simply grasp, how the US is allowed to be so double standard, **** you, I’m bigger, “democracy” exporter, by rest of the world. From EU to Russia and China)

[CroWinner]

I’m in the UK and huge majority of people when properly explained what is going on there (Kosovo) .......

Right, you Brits are well known as very very well informed. :roll:

Gees you, your soldiers and secret serveces screw up and made a bloody war to a 10 years of blooooooody war.

Lets talk about Brits interests in that part of the world. Lets talk about pocketed lords and politicians!

Still on serbian payroll?

[spale]

Right, you Brits are well known as very very well informed. :roll:

Gees you, your soldiers and secret serveces screw up and made a bloody war to a 10 years of blooooooody war.

Lets talk about Brits interests in that part of the world. Lets talk about pocketed lords and politicians!

Still on serbian payroll?

Whats your point???
I really don't understand.

I'm guessing that you are trying to say that British Forces and secret services extended a war.
Which war you are talking about mate?
Kosovo conflict didn't last 10 years, so you must be refering to something else.
Care to explain??

[CroWinner]

Whats your point???
I really don't understand.

I'm guessing that you are trying to say that British Forces and secret services extended a war.
Which war you are talking about mate?
Kosovo conflict didn't last 10 years, so you must be refering to something else.
Care to explain??

My point is that Brits are heavily invested in the whole region.
I watch BBC news, it is just sad how partial Brits are. During the wars in ex-yu, the worst nightmare was British politics and there fixing the fights on the ground, to prove and improve there goals. MI6 is still creating politics in whole region, proserbian, politics of course.

Half of the war criminals from serbia is living in Britain, with state given papers.

This is not personal, I just have a very bad experience with Brits.

[spale]

My point is that Brits are heavily invested in the whole region.
I watch BBC news, it is just sad how partial Brits are. During the wars in ex-yu, the worst nightmare was British politics and there fixing the fights on the ground, to prove and improve there goals. MI6 is still creating politics in whole region, proserbian, politics of course.

Half of the war criminals from serbia is living in Britain, with state given papers.

This is not personal, I just have a very bad experience with Brits.

I read your previous posts and it seems that you have problem with anyone and anything that is not Croatian.
And if even some reasonable Croats dissagree with you, you have problem with them as well.

Very strange.

You also said that half of Serbian war criminals are living in Britain.
OK, first of all, if someone is war criminal it means that he/she has been tried and convicted, so you must be either talking about war crime susspects or some kind of Hague fugitives.
If you can make a statement like that, surely you must know their names.
Or at least some of them.
So, which Serbian war crime susspect is living in UK?

Or you maybe you saw that on some other TV station.

[CroWinner]

I read your previous posts and it seems that you have problem with anyone and anything that is not Croatian.
And if even some reasonable Croats dissagree with you, you have problem with them as well.

Very strange.

You also said that half of Serbian war criminals are living in Britain.
OK, first of all, if someone is war criminal it means that he/she has been tried and convicted, so you must be either talking about war crime susspects or some kind of Hague fugitives.
If you can make a statement like that, surely you must know their names.
Or at least some of them.
So, which Serbian war crime susspect is living in UK?

Or you maybe you saw that on some other TV station.

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/10/24/10077143.html (http://www.jutarnji.hr/dogadjaji_dana/clanak/art-2006,10,28,Koljac_azilGB,48235.jl)
Milan Spanovic, just one of many! War criminal, OK?
Very strange, right? :)


I do not see need to get a personal profile from you, why don't you give me answers, instead of trying to make me look what, proCroatian? You sound very proBritish to me, so what?

I do think that your problem is that British government is not finding people in Kosovo, that will like to be reasonable and give the governing to serbian politicians, right?

You looove reasonable Croats paid by your government?

Bring to UK serbian war criminals?
They will be safe, no worries!
http://atangledweb.typepad.com/weblog/2006/10/bring_us_your_w.html

or how many more war criminals lives in UK???

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/10/28/dl2801.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/10/28/ixopinion.html

[spale]

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/10/24/10077143.html (http://www.jutarnji.hr/dogadjaji_dana/clanak/art-2006,10,28,Koljac_azilGB,48235.jl)
Milan Spanovic, just one of many! War criminal, OK?
Very strange, right? :)


I do not see need to get a personal profile from you, why don't you give me answers, instead of trying to make me look what, proCroatian? You sound very proBritish to me, so what?

I do think that your problem is that British government is not finding people in Kosovo, that will like to be reasonable and give the governing to serbian politicians, right?

You looove reasonable Croats paid by your government?

Bring to UK serbian war criminals?
They will be safe, no worries!

http://atangledweb.typepad.com/weblog/2006/10/bring_us_your_w.html

WHAT ANSWERS ARE YOU ALKING ABOUT?
are you on drugs boy???
You didn't ask any questions.

So member here: ZG18 is on MI6 payroll. hehhe, you are a sad sad boy.

And no, I'm not trying to make you look like pro-Croat, I'm saying you are anti-everything non-Croatian.
There is a huge difference.
But you unfortunately think that hating anything thats not your own (and even some of them) is "pro-Croat"
As I said very very sad.
For you personally, because I know that a lot of Croatians are nothing like you.

As for that guy, he has been tried in Croatia without being there and presenting his defence!!!
Trust me if he was real war criminal and democratically tried, UK would deliver him.
It would've been an outrage if was a proper war criminal and UK refused to extradite. And we would all know about it.
If courts in the UK decide that he indeed is a war criminal, he'll be deported.

So, thats it??? No more "bad Serbs protected by MI6"??? LOL :cantbeli:

On the other hand, you should keep very quiet on that front as it took years to catch Gotovina as Croatia wouldn't.
A proper War Criminal, that whole world recognise.

If there are any other questions that you would like to ask, please feel free.

[CroWinner]

WHAT ANSWERS ARE YOU ALKING ABOUT?
are you on drugs boy???
You didn't ask any questions.

So member here: ZG18 is on MI6 payroll. hehhe, you are a sad sad boy.

And no, I'm not trying to make you look like pro-Croat, I'm saying you are anti-everything non-Croatian.
There is a huge difference.
But you unfortunately think that hating anything thats not your own (and even some of them) is "pro-Croat"
As I said very very sad.
For you personally, because I know that a lot of Croatians are nothing like you.

As for that guy, he has been tried in Croatia without being there and presenting his defence!!!
Trust me if he was real war criminal and democratically tried, UK would deliver him.
It would've been an outrage if was a proper war criminal and UK refused to extradite. And we would all know about it.
If courts in the UK decide that he indeed is a war criminal, he'll be deported.

So, thats it??? No more "bad Serbs protected by MI6"??? LOL :cantbeli:

On the other hand, you should keep very quiet on that front as it took years to catch Gotovina as Croatia wouldn't.
A proper War Criminal, that whole world recognise.

If there are any other questions that you would like to ask, please feel free.

I do think that British have a problem seeing the whole Kosovo situation correctly. And I did give you a very strong evidence for that.

It is not my problem that you do not want to acknowledge that! You prefer slander and very personal subjective attitude towards me and my opinions.

That is not the point! I am not the subject of this topic, nor Ante Gotovina.
The point is that British politics very often goes pro-serbian, for well known reasons.

[spale]

I do think that British have a problem seeing the whole Kosovo situation correctly. And I did give you a very strong evidence for that.

It is not my problem that you do not want to acknowledge that! You prefer slander and very personal subjective attitude towards me and my opinions.

That is not the point! I am not the subject of this topic, nor Ante Gotovina.
The point is that British politics very often goes pro-serbian, for well known reasons.


That would be you that made it personal when you said:

Gees you, your soldiers and secret serveces screw up and made a bloody war to a 10 years of blooooooody war.


Now, what evidence are you talking about??

On one thing I do have to agree with you is that Brits don't see Kosovo problem correctly.
Most still think that Serbs went down there, killed everything in their path and sent million people away.
Serbs - bad, Albanians - good.
Very very wrong.
But thats how this government wants it and that is the bit were you lost me. UK being pro-Serb??!!??

Actually, you know what , just don't bother replying anymore as you genuinely don't know what you are taking about.
Not about UK, nor Serbia.

You are making very "heavy" claims about these two countries and their people and apart from one article that supports nothing you said you haven't produced anything to support your claims.
Article about 1 (one) !!! man and your claim:

Half of the war criminals from
Serbia is living in Britain, with state given papers

As I said in my previous posts, you do come across as very anti-Serb, very anti-British and generally anti-everything not Croatian.
Very very sad.
:bash:
...........................................................................

Back to the topic, Kosovo should stay Serbian with some autonomy, but I personally doubt that will be the end result.
But nevertheless I think that Serbian politicians should fight for it as hard and as long as they can.

Ahtisaari’s plan should be rejected by Serbian team.
Not all of it, but all parts that even imply to Kosovo being independent in near future.

And if reality shows that “world” has decided to give it independency, make a trade.
Ask for something in return.

Thats my view.

[apm]

Back to the topic, Kosovo should stay Serbian with some autonomy, but I personally doubt that will be the end result.
But nevertheless I think that Serbian politicians should fight for it as hard and as long as they can.

Ahtisaari’s plan should be rejected by Serbian team.
Not all of it, but all parts that even imply to Kosovo being independent in near future.

And if reality shows that “world” has decided to give it independency, make a trade.
Ask for something in return.

Thats my view.

yeah, great idea :) ask the slovenians or the bosnians, they probably want to become reintegrated into the panslavian empire!
ok seriously spale, the un suggestion only includes the future status of the province, so what else if not the whole plan should be rejected by serbian officials?
and to reject everything without the will for a real compromise is the reason why this conflict will last even longer than this, counting for both sides.

i wonder how the serbia will react if the un start to push the plan through - which is almost sure - and wether the international community will reengage when the serbians try to prevent this plan from becoming reality.

to be honest, i do not care because in any way the duties of the world will be necessary for more years. i highly doubt that the kfor troops pull out of the province even if kosovo stays a part of serbia.
i can imagine a totally different solution: a partial independence for the kosovo in a kind of federation (like with montenegro before) and for this the extradition of karadžić and mladic.

what do you think about this solution?

[127th Knights]

I do think that British have a problem seeing the whole Kosovo situation correctly. And I did give you a very strong evidence for that.

It is not my problem that you do not want to acknowledge that! You prefer slander and very personal subjective attitude towards me and my opinions.

That is not the point! I am not the subject of this topic, nor Ante Gotovina.
The point is that British politics very often goes pro-serbian, for well known reasons.

ummmmm considering the british wanted to invade yugoslavia in '99, i don't think they're pro-serbian on anything!

[TuRRiCaN]

I also found it strange Tony advocated attacking Serbia when Major before him went so far up Milosevic's arse.. then again Tony's more of an idealist and everything was ripe for a big strike. I detest ultranationalist Serbs aka Chetniks so I'm biased on this issue, but I appreciate the fact Kosovo has been significantly Serbian and Serb fanatics still have orgies about a battle that had taken place there over six centuries ago.

I hope scores will be settled less savagely next time, whenever that might be.

[Vuk1389]

ultranationalist Serbs aka ChetniksCetniks are the Kings soldiers/army, they have nothing to do with nationalism, but freedom. There were Muslims and Croatians in the Cetniks armies, they were all for the KINGDOM of Yugoslavia, not for the Communists, and against the NAZI occupiers. Those that claim that are Cetniks during the wars in Bosnia/Croatia...w.e are not Cetniks, I dont see them fighting for Monarchy or being commanded by the King to do anything..

KOSOVO: If KOSOVO does break off or w.e, its going to be ugly sooner or later.


The thing that bothers is me how the public denies the truth! If they know how the Albanians came into the region, how they formed a majority, what they did...and all that other stuff.

From what i know since 1991 everyones been trying to bring the Serbs down to thier knees. And the thing that bothers me is the way the people in the world look at it, as the Serbs as agressors, and the ones trying to break us apart as the victims.....In the end the truth will prevail!

[TuRRiCaN]

Please, this talk of conspiracy won't convince people. The breakup of Yugoslavia was quite ugly, and the term "ethnic cleansing" wasn't thrown around arbitrarily. Four wars, hundreds of thousands dead, millions traumatised and forced out of their homes.. was that a small price to pay to keep together a fragile federation, or was the aim to gain as much land as possible and annex it to a Greater Serbia? Everyone has their version of the truth, but which one is more convincing?

Serbia has to choose between joining the European family, like Croatia is actively seeking, or pursue nationalist dreams which almost everyone else in the Balkans is giving up on in order to improve their economies and stability.. Shame the Kosovo issue hinders the former school of thought!

[Vuk1389]

If the turks didnt come in the first place and forced peopelt o change thier religions maybe all this wouldnt have happened? Albania wouldn't have been created, those muslims would have stayed as serbs and not claim they are bosnians..

[TuRRiCaN]

And maybe moors shouldn't have invaded Spain? Then Colombus wouldn't have discovered America! I dig that line of logic :P

[RSKKnin]

Please, this talk of conspiracy won't convince people. The breakup of Yugoslavia was quite ugly, and the term "ethnic cleansing" wasn't thrown around arbitrarily. Four wars, hundreds of thousands dead, millions traumatised and forced out of their homes.. was that a small price to pay to keep together a fragile federation, or was the aim to gain as much land as possible and annex it to a Greater Serbia? Everyone has their version of the truth, but which one is more convincing?

Serbia has to choose between joining the European family, like Croatia is actively seeking, or pursue nationalist dreams which almost everyone else in the Balkans is giving up on in order to improve their economies and stability.. Shame the Kosovo issue hinders the former school of thought!

Now when you are so smart tell me when did conflicts started in Kosovo???
Lets not count WW2

Which country conducted the largest ethnic cleansing in ex Yugoslavia?

Who fought against who in Bosnia???

Who stated " If i have to choose between independence or war..i choose war"

Which was the first foreign ARMY THAT INVADED BOSNIA???

simple questions

[127th Knights]

Please, this talk of conspiracy won't convince people. The breakup of Yugoslavia was quite ugly, and the term "ethnic cleansing" wasn't thrown around arbitrarily. Four wars, hundreds of thousands dead, millions traumatised and forced out of their homes.. was that a small price to pay to keep together a fragile federation, or was the aim to gain as much land as possible and annex it to a Greater Serbia? Everyone has their version of the truth, but which one is more convincing?

Serbia has to choose between joining the European family, like Croatia is actively seeking, or pursue nationalist dreams which almost everyone else in the Balkans is giving up on in order to improve their economies and stability.. Shame the Kosovo issue hinders the former school of thought!

First off, the term ethnic cleansing was coined by Croatian Serbs in the Slavonia region of Croatia during '91. Source, "Breakup of Yugoslavia, BBC". Greater Serbia was coined by Western MEdia to describe this grand idea of all the Serbian kingdoms, dukedoms, military districts, monastic lands, princedoms, and geographic regions combined under one name. However as a Serb, I can tell you that the idea of Greater SErbia has never existed in our minds. Great or small, you guys can call it whatever you like, Serbia is Serbia and shall remain so until our Race flutters out. Another thing, there are no versions of truth, only truth itself. That truth is full of actions, reactions, redos, precedents, and all kinds of other things.

As far as only Serbs in the Balkans being nationalistic...Guess what...i'm an american born Serb, educated in the west, and so damn pro-ultranationalist rhetoric it's ridiculus. Why? Because I'm an american born Serb educated in the west. You can't help but notice hypocracies between the strong and the weak, the rich and the poor, the healthy and the sick, etc etc. Serbia will not join the EU until its borders are properly in place and secured. Just as the US had a civil war based upon states rights and extent of federal power, the EU will one day have a civil war as well. Once that happens, individual states will fall back upon their "old" borders. Germany however will probably say oops, wherever zie deutsche volk live, das ist deutschland. Over 65% of croats don't want to enter the EU under the criterean given. Even less Serbs want to. So there goes your grand theory about pragmatic croatia.

[127th Knights]

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.387619524&par=0

[CroWinner]

First off, the term ethnic cleansing was coined by Croatian Serbs in the Slavonia region of Croatia during '91. Source, "Breakup of Yugoslavia, BBC". Greater Serbia was coined by Western MEdia to describe this grand idea of all the Serbian kingdoms, dukedoms, military districts, monastic lands, princedoms, and geographic regions combined under one name. However as a Serb, I can tell you that the idea of Greater SErbia has never existed in our minds. Great or small, you guys can call it whatever you like, Serbia is Serbia and shall remain so until our Race flutters out. Another thing, there are no versions of truth, only truth itself. That truth is full of actions, reactions, redos, precedents, and all kinds of other things.

As far as only Serbs in the Balkans being nationalistic...Guess what...i'm an american born Serb, educated in the west, and so damn pro-ultranationalist rhetoric it's ridiculus. Why? Because I'm an american born Serb educated in the west. You can't help but notice hypocracies between the strong and the weak, the rich and the poor, the healthy and the sick, etc etc. Serbia will not join the EU until its borders are properly in place and secured. Just as the US had a civil war based upon states rights and extent of federal power, the EU will one day have a civil war as well. Once that happens, individual states will fall back upon their "old" borders. Germany however will probably say oops, wherever zie deutsche volk live, das ist deutschland. Over 65% of croats don't want to enter the EU under the criterean given. Even less Serbs want to. So there goes your grand theory about pragmatic croatia.

Over 65% Croatian has a problem going to EU for whole different reasons, one of them is a double standard toward serbian war criminals.
Ante Gotovina is in the jail, because troops under his command allegedly killed about 80 people during operation Storm (Oluja) while they were getting back control of about 1/3 of Croatia.

Every other serbian war criminal killed same amount of people in there village or small town, mainly neighbors.

Croats are pragmatic and want to join EU, but we are thinking of air bridge, every time serbians start acting neighborly and decide to send there radicals to fulfill there unrealistic plans. Educated or not educated this politics will make you smaller and smaller.

But you can always live in one of your myths, right? :roll:

[CroWinner]

Back to the topic, Kosovo should stay Serbian with some autonomy, but I personally doubt that will be the end result.
But nevertheless I think that Serbian politicians should fight for it as hard and as long as they can.

Ahtisaari’s plan should be rejected by Serbian team.
Not all of it, but all parts that even imply to Kosovo being independent in near future.

And if reality shows that “world” has decided to give it independency, make a trade.
Ask for something in return.

Thats my view.

Are you looking for reasonable serbs?
Hopefully you are!

[apm]

From what i know since 1991 everyones been trying to bring the Serbs down to thier knees. And the thing that bothers me is the way the people in the world look at it, as the Serbs as agressors, and the ones trying to break us apart as the victims.....In the end the truth will prevail!
shall i tell you something? we germans had to share your fate...the sensible leaders of this world do not want to stand a nation that believes it is allowed to murder thousands. :roll:

i do not compare the size of the holocaust and srebrenica here (just to prevent you from grumble.). what i want to say is that the international community had understandable reasons not to thrust serbian leaders.
it would be senseless if i start the discussion for the reasons of the war again, but i must say i do more believe in the numbers of the UN, OSCE and ICTY forensics than in the numbers of serbian officials who are still dominated by very radical parties that see themselves in tradition of knights that fought the battle of amselfeld.
serbia should better carry out a more open policy and should try to explain the world it´s reasons for the rejection of the un special envoy plan, not just saying "no, no, no".
i think with the background of srebrenica none cares if the illyrians or the slavic were the first to dominate this region.

[INAT]

shall i tell you something? we germans had to share your fate...the sensible leaders of this world do not want to stand a nation that believes it is allowed to murder thousands. :roll:

i do not compare the size of the holocaust and srebrenica here (just to prevent you from grumble.). what i want to say is that the international community had understandable reasons not to thrust serbian leaders.
it would be senseless if i start the discussion for the reasons of the war again, but i must say i do more believe in the numbers of the UN, OSCE and ICTY forensics than in the numbers of serbian officials who are still dominated by very radical parties that see themselves in tradition of knights that fought the battle of amselfeld.
serbia should better carry out a more open policy and should try to explain the world it´s reasons for the rejection of the un special envoy plan, not just saying "no, no, no".
i think with the background of srebrenica none cares if the illyrians or the slavic were the first to dominate this region.


Ohh! so you are german now i understand a little better your understanding of the Balkans.Serbia should try to explain to the world it's reasons for rejecting the plan? Is that what you said.germany should explain to the world why its first act after unification it bullied and forced the rest of Europe to vote for Croatian and Slovenian seperation from Yugoslavia and arming and backing Croation rebels knowing full well what this would do.Serbia's reason for rejecting the plan is very simple:Among the many the obvious stick out .Loss of territory and sovereignty,breaking international law ,going against resolution 1244,setting a danerous precedent,Losing its history,losing it's churches,refugees shall i go on.It just pisses me off when people with basic knowledge and sometimes false knowledge talk about subjects they do not fully understand.

[spale]

Are you looking for reasonable serbs?
Hopefully you are!

What are you talking about????????????????

You are saying that there are no reasonable serbs?
Thanks what I would love to know!!

[spale]

And maybe moors shouldn't have invaded Spain? Then Colombus wouldn't have discovered America! I dig that line of logic :P

You know what, that would have been great!!!

[apm]

Ohh! so you are german now i understand a little better your understanding of the Balkans.Serbia should try to explain to the world it's reasons for rejecting the plan? Is that what you said.germany should explain to the world why its first act after unification it bullied and forced the rest of Europe to vote for Croatian and Slovenian seperation from Yugoslavia and arming and backing Croation rebels knowing full well what this would do.Serbia's reason for rejecting the plan is very simple:Among the many the obvious stick out .Loss of territory and sovereignty,breaking international law ,going against resolution 1244,setting a danerous precedent,Losing its history,losing it's churches,refugees shall i go on.It just pisses me off when people with basic knowledge and sometimes false knowledge talk about subjects they do not fully understand.

that´s an imputation, and becoming offensive does not increase your credibility - instead of me you still missed it to list sources for the many statements you did.
i do not know why i have to emphasize again that i my attitude towards the conflict is neutral, neither pro-serbian nor pro-albanian. just because this conflicts lasts long enough now that both sides can be blamed for it´s results.
but you only separate the world into black and white and seem not to be able to see the issue with a not-serbian influenced point of view.
because all what i said was that in the opinion of the world community serbia is responsible for a bloody civil war between former yugoslavian federations states which lead a following row of long conflicts and to massacres that killed at least 8000 muslims , and therefor the nato strikes of '99 are their own fault. and because of that i supposed that it would help serbia more if a sensible and common accepted serbian politician address the world with a sensible explanation for the rejection of the plan. all what serbian politicians do at the moment is to hold martial speeches and to vomit threats in the microphone with pithy sayings. we have heard the serbian attitude here in this thread (i am too lazy now to mark the quotations individually). sayings like "kosovo will never become independent, we will for sure get it back, we have defeated the ottomans so we will also defeat nato " and so on. an important politician of the srpska radikalna stranka said recently, the serbians already had defeated quite different enemies than nato.

and the only goddamn thing i intended to say was that this cannot help serbias demand.

p-) learn to read between the lines.

[INAT]

that´s an imputation, and becoming offensive does not increase your credibility - instead of me you still missed it to list sources for the many statements you did.
i do not know why i have to emphasize again that i my attitude towards the conflict is neutral, neither pro-serbian nor pro-albanian. just because this conflicts lasts long enough now that both sides can be blamed for it´s results.
but you only separate the world into black and white and seem not to be able to see the issue with a not-serbian influenced point of view.
because all what i said was that in the opinion of the world community serbia is responsible for a bloody civil war between former yugoslavian federations states which lead a following row of long conflicts and to massacres that killed at least 8000 muslims , and therefor the nato strikes of '99 are their own fault. and because of that i supposed that it would help serbia more if a sensible and common accepted serbian politician address the world with a sensible explanation for the rejection of the plan. all what serbian politicians do at the moment is to hold martial speeches and to vomit threats in the microphone with pithy sayings. we have heard the serbian attitude here in this thread (i am too lazy now to mark the quotations individually). sayings like "kosovo will never become independent, we will for sure get it back, we have defeated the ottomans so we will also defeat nato " and so on. an important politician of the srpska radikalna stranka said recently, the serbians already had defeated quite different enemies than nato.

and the only goddamn thing i intended to say was that this cannot help serbias demand.

p-) learn to read between the lines.

This is like a professor(me) debating with a 3rd grader.I do apologize if i insulted you.I do not see the world in black and white by any means.I have studied the subject in depth for a long time from many opposing views and I understand the history of this region very well.With statements like"Serbia is responsible for a bloody civil war" I can see 1.That you see the world in black and white when there are may shades of gray and 2.I am tired of explaining and debating these issues with a person whom does not seem to have a clear knowledge of the subject at hand.3Der Spiegel,BBC,CNN or your other sources have downright been dishonest and severly bent the truth.You are starting to sound like that scum Jamie Shae and i understand it is becuase you are ignorant of the subject(when i say ignorant i simply mean not aware of/lack knowledge )that was not name calling. When you say you are unbiased that is becuase you think you have been told the truth.No party that caused Yugoslavia's murder has clean hands including foreign powers.The bottom line here pal is that you will think what you think and I will think what I know because this subject of the war is so turbid that anything resembeling the truth will almost never surface.Please do not think i am uttering this with hate or malice I just suggest that if you are going to speak on it have alot more understanding becuase Balkan history,present and past is very complicated. Trust me when i say that.I have studied it for a long time and it still amazes me.Thank you for trying and if you are interested in the subject do some ecletic research.

[CroWinner]

What are you talking about????????????????

You are saying that there are no reasonable serbs?
Thanks what I would love to know!!

No, I am asking you, are you looking for reasonable serbs, you told me that you are appreciating reasonable Croat (m18 or something), and my Q is are you looking for reasonable srbs too?

Cause I do not see them here!

[CroWinner]

Der Spiegel,BBC,CNN or your other sources have downright been dishonest and severly bent the truth.

Right, everybody lies and everybody are naci.
Only you serbs know the truth.
:roll:

[apm]

i just wanted to say the same. but nevertheless i´m sorry for him if he lives in a country where he cannot believe one word the media say.

but did i say i refer to any media? i explained that figures and scientific work by the UN, SIPRI, the OSCE and the final report of the ICTY based on their indictment against former serbian leaders have built the reference for my statements.


When you say you are unbiased that is becuase you think you have been told the truth
i´m sorry but comments like this do illustrate a damn paranoid way of thinking. well, serbia is located at place 77 of the worldwide list of the countries with the best freedom of the press , behind nigeria. probably you must assume therefore that the media and our governments only tell lies. certainly, it is lied a lot, but not in this scale. and everything comes out, sooner or later.


With statements like"Serbia is responsible for a bloody civil war" I can see 1.That you see the world in black and white when there are may shades of gray and 2.I am tired of explaining and debating these issues with a person whom does not seem to have a clear knowledge of the subject at hand.3Der Spiegel,BBC,CNN or your other sources have downright been dishonest and severly bent the truth.
pregnant or not pregnant, that´s the question here. in relation to a crime i have a very black and white point of view, i cannot deny that: commiter and victim. if you now gonna tell me that i am wrong with my opinion about srebrenica i wonder what comes next. oh wait, the dutch peacekeepers killed all those muslims, damn right!
no seriously, you really suppose the whole world has created an alliance against serbia and spreads lies about the entire story of the balkans, don´t you? damn right!

:roll: your text sounds like the speech of the average SRS politician.

[asch]

Right, everybody lies and everybody are naci.
Only you serbs know the truth.
:roll:
looks like you have a very bright time ahead. as troll.

[apm]

even if he could have expressed it the more diplomatic way, i do second him. it was a kind of suitable reaction on that naive comment INAT made.

[cinoeye]

Right, everybody lies and everybody are naci.
Only you serbs know the truth.
:roll:


Why don't you tell as whats going on on "your side"?

In this analogy, reasonable Croats where for "Serbian Krajina", and unreasonable where agianst.
Than you know what?
I'm very unreasonalble Serb, and I do not want to give up part of my country!

[apm]

Why don't you tell as whats going on on "your side"?

In this analogy, reasonable Croats where for "Serbian Krajina", and unreasonable where agianst.
Than you know what?
I'm very unreasonalble Serb, and I do not want to give up part of my country!

come on, calm down. his comment refered unambiguously to the quote he marked in which somebody basically claims that all western media do only spread lies. one cannot deny that this sounded as merely the serbians would knew what is right and what is wrong.
:cantbeli:

[Vuk1389]

If you think the media did not state one lie, then your 100% retarded.

[apm]

If you think the media did not state one lie, then your 100% retarded.
thanks for the diagnosis, uncle doc! rofl

[TuRRiCaN]

Threads about the Balkans typically get nowhere.

[apm]

Threads about the Balkans typically get nowhere.
i can understand it that this is a hot subject for serbians as well as for albanians. i would continue this discussion with pleasure, but the counterarguments are too one-sided for my favour, more propagandistic than logical.

i mean, reading stuff like this... "you believe, you can trust the media?". totally paranoid.

then again i am surprised in which kind of country they live, really. for sure, none should take everything the media say for gospel truth, but in a democracy one can call himself well-informed if he checks as many media as possible and creates then his own point of view.

[spale]

No, I am asking you, are you looking for reasonable serbs, you told me that you are appreciating reasonable Croat (m18 or something), and my Q is are you looking for reasonable srbs too?

Cause I do not see them here!

Of course there are :bash:

The fact that you don't see them doesn't mean they are not here, even talking to you.

See your problem is that you have your mind poisoned by, my guess is, stories and instead of having a normal discussion you go into attack mode as soon as you "smell" Serb.
Thats not going to take you, nor your country no where.

And you know, what amazes me is that you bother to write so many posts in the thread that doesn't concern you or your country.
Why??
Not a single Kosovan Albanian posted here, who have more relevance to this thread.
But you found your self important enough to spread your word.

Truly amazing
:cantbeli:

[spale]

And BTW that something 18 is your fellow Croat ZG18.
I'm sure you are just playing dumb.

just read a bit how you talk to your own.
how would you even know to talk to someone that you don't like if thats how you are with Croats???????
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2142723#post2142723

[R.D.]

Threads about the Balkans typically get nowhere.

x2 ______

[Vorian]

Threads about the Balkans typically get nowhere.

And tend to have 6 pages rather quickly...

[R.D.]

And tend to have 6 pages rather quickly...

With nothing else but:

A: Yes it is
B: No it's not.
C: Shut up you nazi
D: Babykiller
E: You're the terrorists
A: No you are.
F: Well back in 1389 this an that
B: No that's not true, this is how it happened
C: But before that it was 6th century.

Stuff like that lol in every single thread...

[Vorian]

With nothing else but:

A: Yes it is
B: No it's not.
C: Shut up you nazi
D: Babykiller
E: You're the terrorists
A: No you are.
F: Well back in 1389 this an that
B: No that's not true, this is how it happened
C: But before that it was 6th century.

Stuff like that lol in every single thread...

rofl rofl :D :D

[CroWinner]

And you know, what amazes me is that you bother to write so many posts in the thread that doesn't concern you or your country.
Why??
Not a single Kosovan Albanian posted here, who have more relevance to this thread.
But you found your self important enough to spread your word.

Truly amazing
:cantbeli:

Unfortunately serbia is too close to Croatia.
As Croat I do know what happens when serbs start to manipulate situations on the ground.
If they succeed in persuading EU and USA to drop and leave situation, as is in Kosovo, they will feel they can do whatever they want. Croatia is, next to attack.

Weak and controlled serbia is guaranty for peace in Balkans, trust me!

[CroWinner]

With nothing else but:

A: Yes it is
B: No it's not.
C: Shut up you nazi
D: Babykiller
E: You're the terrorists
A: No you are.
F: Well back in 1389 this an that
B: No that's not true, this is how it happened
C: But before that it was 6th century.

Stuff like that lol in every single thread...

rofl

You are sooo right.
It is too bad the Balkan affairs are not simple and easy to understand. I would like that too, trust me!

For centuries people and state affairs were soo messed up, that everything ended up in medieval type of war and now couple years after, everybody expects that everything will just be great.

Not realistic, EU nation were fixing there affairs after the wars for long time.

Please bear with our problems, the truth will prevail ...
Sound like a song. :)

[apm]

sadly we europeans made it even worse after berlin congress...that must have created very narrow-minded views on that topic we not-affected maybe cannot understand. though i still wonder if there are any neutral opinions about the issue ever made by serbians, albanians or whoever.

[spale]

Unfortunately serbia is too close to Croatia.
As Croat I do know what happens when serbs start to manipulate situations on the ground.
If they succeed in persuading EU and USA to drop and leave situation, as is in Kosovo, they will feel they can do whatever they want. Croatia is, next to attack.

Weak and controlled serbia is guaranty for peace in Balkans, trust me!

...and you are hoping by posting your crap here to stop that, right?? :slap:

questions:

whats to stop Croatia to attack Serbia if it gets weak??

And, by what you said in your last post, independent Kosovo is not about Albanians than, it all about making Serbia weak??

Is that it?

[apm]

...and you are hoping by posting your crap here to stop that, right?? :slap:

questions:

whats to stop Croatia to attack Serbia if it gets weak??

And, by what you said in your last post, independent Kosovo is not about Albanians than, it all about making Serbia weak??

Is that it?
:roll: croatia is in the row of those few countries that do not mix up the balkan at the moment. if they really manage to enter the european union i guess pressure from brussels will force them to forget the old enmity with the former mother state.

[spale]

:roll: croatia is in the row of those few countries that do not mix up the balkan at the moment. if they really manage to enter the european union i guess pressure from brussels will force them to forget the old enmity with the former mother state.


what are you saying?
That EU will keep pressure on Croatia and that will ensure that they don't enter another conquest??

EU has been pressuring Croatia for years to hand over Gotovina, for example, amongst other things, and they refused.
Why would it be any different if Serbia get weak???
If Brussels couldn't force them (as you say) into small thing like handing over war crime suspects, how can they force them not to attack another country?

Its not just Serbia; Croatia has bigger problem at the moment with Slovenia and Italy over its territory.

So, a big NO to making Balkans safe by making Serbia weak and Croatia strong.
It wouldn’t work.

And don't be fooled into thinking that UK, France and some others forgot that Croatia was fighting against them not that long ago in WW2.

[apm]

what are you saying?
That EU will keep pressure on Croatia and that will ensure that they don't enter another conquest??

EU has been pressuring Croatia for years to hand over Gotovina, for example, amongst other things, and they refused.
Why would it be any different if Serbia get weak???
If Brussels couldn't force them (as you say) into small thing like handing over war crime suspects, how can they force them not to attack another country?

Its not just Serbia; Croatia has bigger problem at the moment with Slovenia and Italy over its territory.

So, a big NO to making Balkans safe by making Serbia weak and Croatia strong.
It wouldn’t work.

And don't be fooled into thinking that UK, France and some others forgot that Croatia was fighting against them not that long ago in WW2.

and so germany was fighting against them. what´s the situation today? we share very tightly connected aspects in many ways, there is even a joint brigade. there have always been possibilities to work together.

to the other point, maybe i missunderstood your post before.

[spale]

and so germany was fighting against them. what´s the situation today? we share very tightly connected aspects in many ways, there is even a joint brigade. there have always been possibilities to work together.

to the other point, maybe i missunderstood your post before.

well yes, you misunderstood the point of it, which I'll explain, but do you compare Croatia with Germany?????????? Oh, come on, get real man!!

With Germany there is an interest, so if you need to "forget" something, you'll naturally forget that to someone as powerful as Germany because they have a lot to offer.
What on Earth Croatia has to offer to Europe?
Croatia is tiny country in the Western Balkans.
Its got beautiful Adriatic coast and good looking girls, but thats hardly why Europe, or anyone for that matter, would choose it over some other country. Especially with Croatian history.
And I'm not talking hundreds-of-years-ago history.. We are talking about living-people-remembers-it history.
Its got nothing of great importance that Germany or Italy or Austria has to offer.

Now back to what I wanted to say was, making Croatia stronger than Serbia in order to keep peace in the Balkans is what I was referring to.

Or making Serbia weak because otherwise they will turn and conquer again.
BS !!!!! Huge big pile of bull s..t!!!

And I understand that that wasn't your quote, I'm just replying to what that other person said.

What happened in the 90's wasn't all that simple as Serbs going into crusade, as everyone involved did more or less the same, plus it was a creation of few people: Milosevic, Tudjman and Izetbegovic.
Without them or someone like them, I can't see any wars going on in the Balkans.

[CroWinner]

well yes, you misunderstood the point of it, which I'll explain, but do you compare Croatia with Germany?????????? Oh, come on, get real man!!

With Germany there is an interest, so if you need to "forget" something, you'll naturally forget that to someone as powerful as Germany because they have a lot to offer.
What on Earth Croatia has to offer to Europe?
Croatia is tiny country in the Western Balkans.
Its got beautiful Adriatic coast and good looking girls, but thats hardly why Europe, or anyone for that matter, would choose it over some other country. Especially with Croatian history.
And I'm not talking hundreds-of-years-ago history.. We are talking about living-people-remembers-it history.
Its got nothing of great importance that Germany or Italy or Austria has to offer.

Now back to what I wanted to say was, making Croatia stronger than Serbia in order to keep peace in the Balkans is what I was referring to.

Or making Serbia weak because otherwise they will turn and conquer again.
BS !!!!! Huge big pile of bull s..t!!!

And I understand that that wasn't your quote, I'm just replying to what that other person said.

What happened in the 90's wasn't all that simple as Serbs going into crusade, as everyone involved did more or less the same, plus it was a creation of few people: Milosevic, Tudjman and Izetbegovic.
Without them or someone like them, I can't see any wars going on in the Balkans.

Maybe you wish that everybody leaves this thread, so you can talk to yourself?

Anyway, thanks for showing what intelectual level you serbs living in England, have.

[apm]

yep the level sunk a bit. but i won´t continue the try to explain my point of view now.

[Fullaut0]

Maybe you wish that everybody leaves this thread, so you can talk to yourself?

Anyway, thanks for showing what intelectual level you serbs living in England, have.


Perhaps you should explain your 'explotion' theory to him.

[CroWinner]

Perhaps you should explain your 'explotion' theory to him.

Thanks, did I misspelled anything else?
Check my other posts please, read carefully...
p-)

[Fullaut0]

Thanks, did I misspelled anything else?
Check my other posts please, read carefully...
p-)

Relax man, I'm just playin' with ya.
:hug:

[spale]

Maybe you wish that everybody leaves this thread, so you can talk to yourself?

Anyway, thanks for showing what intelectual level you serbs living in England, have.


bla bla bla ...

ahhh, OK, so its not British anymore, its now Serbs who live there now :cantbeli:

Sad. very very sad little person...