Better than M4, but you can’t have it - "Delta Force" using Heckler & Koch 416

[Macs.]

Better than M4, but you can’t have it

By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Feb 20, 2007 17:30:29 EST

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/416hirtburst.jpg

Delta Force worked with a gun maker to come up with a better weapon. The 416 is now considered in many circles to be the best carbine in the world, but the regular Army is sticking with the M4 and M16.

[...]

The problems had become obvious enough that at the time of the Afghanistan battle, members of the Army’s Delta Force had begun working on a solution. Today, Delta Force is fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan with a special carbine that’s dramatically more reliable than the M16s and M4s that the rest of the Army dependsupon.

Members of the elite unit linked up with German arms maker Heckler & Koch, which replaced the M4’s gas system with one that experts say significantly reduces malfunctions while increasing parts life. After exhaustive tests with the help of Delta, the H&K 416 was ready in 2004.

Members of the elite commando unit — formally known as 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta — have been carrying it in combat ever since.

The 416 is now considered in many circles to be the best carbine in the world — a weapon that combines the solid handling, accuracy and familiarity of the M4 with the famed dependability of the rugged AK47.


Full Article: http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219forafmcnt/

[scrybe]

Wait a minute.... THAT'S A GERMAN!

[SMGCat]

It's not even a 416 in the photo.

[Anthony91]

It's not even a 416 in the photo.

It's probably a 416 without a sophisticated RAS on there.

[Macs.]

Wait a minute.... THAT'S A GERMAN!

The forum software must be playing a trick on us !


It's not even a 416 in the photo.

Its an early prototype.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/416mauch-vickers.jpg

Ernst Mauch, left and Larry Vickers, the fathers of the HK 416 system with two early prototypes. Yuma-September, 2003.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/416mauchfire.jpg

"Der Waffenmeister" Ernst Mauch dumping magazines though a 10 inch prototype 416

From HKpro: http://www.hkpro.com/hk416.htm

[3rdMillhouse]

That's an interesting article, too bad the video is a streaming piece of trash, c'mon, these guys gotta move on to the FLV format.

[Catch22]

Only one thing against 416 - it's goddamn heavy as compared to Colt/Diemacos.

[SMGLee]

Only one thing against 416 - it's goddamn heavy as compared to Colt/Diemacos.


since the piston, rod, gas regulators add weigth to the barrel, in order to have a accurate system that is still accurate under heavy fire, and it is still free float, HK engineers had to increase the diameter of the barrel in order to support all the add on parts to the front end. thus the weight.

[Catch22]

Well, I know all than Chen, but that knowledge isn't making 416 any lighter.... ;-) its, just damn nose heavy, off-balanced, even without all the toys on it.

[Thor]

Well, I know all than Chen, but that knowledge isn't making 416 any lighter.... ;-) its, just damn nose heavy, off-balanced, even without all the toys on it.
How do you know it's nose heavy and off-balanced... Tried it?

[ToyotaF1Fan]

Are any of the gas-piston M4 variants any better or is it just an inherent flaw with the design?

Jon

[ABNINF]

They are generally better due to the fact that they don't dump gas and carbon back into the receiver.

[Hollis]

Gas piston R has been around for a LONG TIME..... Look up AR 180.

Are gas piston better??, maybe find some failures of AR M4 variants in the last 37 years. Basically, the soldier does his job, the rifle will do its, every firearm needs maintenance. Again, the shooter is more imporant than the weapon.

[Kilo1-1]

This system's similar to the Armalite AR18 and AR180b.
So let me get this straight, the whole upper receiver system can be dropped in on any current Colt lower receiver?

About time we also got an update on what the hell those CAG boys are using these days.

[Argyll]

Seen both up real close last week, already made the comments about CAG using 416's in the mods lounge.....p-)

[Catch22]

How do you know it's nose heavy and off-balanced... Tried it?

http://images1.fotosik.pl/164/0cbabfdebe74a8f1med.jpg

Just handled, stripped, alas not shot it. Maybe next month. Therefore I was just reffering to the general impression as compared to the other AR's (and yes I've shot the other ones). People dealing it here in Poland put some 15.000 rounds through one piece and weren't having a single failure from what I've heard.

[Macs.]

Basically, the soldier does his job, the rifle will do its, every firearm needs maintenance. Again, the shooter is more imporant than the weapon.

From the article:



A 3rd Infantry Division soldier wrote, “The weapon malfunctions in rough conditions/hard to keep clean.”

Another 3rd ID soldier wrote, “I know it fires very well and accurate [when] clean. But sometimes it needs to fire dirty well too.”

A 25th Infantry Division soldier wrote, “The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights. Sometimes we spend more time cleaning the weapon than firing it.”

An 82nd Airborne Division soldier wrote, “The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning.”

[Argyll]

Basic drills, keep your weapon clean at ALL times.

[Hollis]

Basic drills, keep your weapon clean at ALL times.


Some how that never sinks in to some people's head.

MAC, most of the comments where comments, BTW, I carried a M16, in Viet-Nam, 1969, you can google "Mutter's Ridge" or 3rd Marine Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division. Gas piston is a nice design but is NOT the end to the M4, or really any much better from a practical point of view. Failing your duty to clean your weapon will not help a gas piston firearm any more than the M4. Garands, M14 were all gas piston firearms.

We used ours is dirt, mud, monsoon, etc........ The only know real issue was at Khe Sahn, when Marines were not issued cleaning kits, told they did not need to clean them and the powder was changed. This was during a small period of time.

IMHO, this is where the difference of 0.001 inch is made to look like a Mile.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

I have used the M16A1/A2 and have fired the AK47. And to be honest, the M16 series, if you perform maintenance like you are supposed to, is a very good weapon. Even in the sand. The problems arise when soldiers do not clean their weapons on a daily basis, and when they do they do a half sassed job at it. The army used to have I do not know if they still do,a magazine called PM magazine. Every soldier should read this once in a while because you will pick up the latest ideas on keeping your weapon in tip top shape.

Oh,the reason why the special forcesget the newest toys and gadgets is not because they can, but because these toys help them do their job better.

Oh, and before I go,every weapon, regardless if it is AK47 or M16 will jam. Either because of faulty rounds, OR because of lackof operator maintenance so before every soldier on this forum starts to cry why I do not have a HK 416, here is some words of advice, from an old school soldier.....take care of your weapon. Because in the long run, it will take are of you..becauseas the Marines say,the rifle is my only friend.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Basic drills, keep your weapon clean at ALL times.

That is the first rule of being a soldier. The second one is do not forget the first.

[gaz]

I found this article from the Air Force Times whilst doing a google news search for something else, I guessed someone here will appreciate it.

By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Feb 20, 2007 17:30:29 EST

Delta Force worked with a gun maker to come up with a better weapon. The 416 is now considered in many circles to be the best carbine in the world, but the regular Army is sticking with the M4 and M16.

Rest of story here (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219forafmcnt/)

[Macs.]

Already posted: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105642

[He219]

A gun maker = Heckler & Koch.

The 416 is in use with some units in A'stan and Iraq, Capitol Police and Kennedy Space Center SWAT.

http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/uploads/medium/2006/CSA-2006-06-29-094002.jpg (http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/uploads/large/2006/CSA-2006-06-29-094002.jpg)

Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division conduct a raid in Samaria, Iraq. This photo appeared on www.army.mil (http://www.army.mil/).

[He219]

Seen both up real close last week, already made the comments about CAG using 416's in the mods lounge.....p-)
But you never did post the pictures ...
:-(

[szr]

11-04-2005, 11:03 AM XM8 Put to Sleep- Its dead! its dead! (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61060)

Thank god!

Now let's get something that's really worthwhile, and for all services... HK416s..
....

[jagermeister]

ive put many a M16 and M4 threw some really brutal conditions and they always worked flawless. Only time i ever had jam or anything like that was with bad ammo or bad mags. Im of the mind dont fix whats not broken.

[alfigel]

Basic drills, keep your weapon clean at ALL times.

Oh, well... there's a saying going on in the Austrian Army that more rifles are cleaned to death than shot to death. Recruits are forced to clean their Steyr AUG are thoroughly as possible, and many fear punishment because of an uncleaned weapon so much that they even use stuff like the firing pin (!!) to get their rifle as clean as possible. By doing that, many damage the firing pin or other parts. Also, too much cleaning isn't really good for all the chromed parts, and makes them rust a lot earlier. And the truth is: you can never get your rifle clean. The Steyr AUG has a few places that are impossible to clean with the standard cleaning kits you get from the Army, and when an instructor tries to get a recruit into trouble, he can always check one of those dirty-for-sure places.

But then again, this only applies to the Steyr AUG.

[Pete031]

Delta or no Delta, That is a hot weapon!!

[TacoDelRio]

Delta or no Delta, That is a hot weapon!!


HAY who's hungry? p-)

[K3rmit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HK416_D145RS.jpg

That sure is one sweet looking assault rifle. If the rave reviews are any thing to go by, this may be the future of a fair number of armed services world wide.

[Pete031]

HAY who's hungry? p-)

As soon as that first bullet goes over your head.... Politics and all that ****, goes right out the window.....

[Whitcomb]

Delta or no Delta, That is a hot weapon!!

Your safety should be on at all times...

Well this is my safety sir... *finger movement*

;)

[8thidpathfinderpower]

The army did hold a open bid process or something like that to havea compition to replace the M4/M16 family of weapons recently. But some report stated they did not specify the testing conditions and it was rejected.

I will try to find the article, I remember seeing it on defenseindustrydaily.com

[velvet-cream]

Oh, well... there's a saying going on in the Austrian Army that more rifles are cleaned to death than shot to death. Recruits are forced to clean their Steyr AUG are thoroughly as possible, and many fear punishment because of an uncleaned weapon so much that they even use stuff like the firing pin (!!) to get their rifle as clean as possible. By doing that, many damage the firing pin or other parts. Also, too much cleaning isn't really good for all the chromed parts, and makes them rust a lot earlier. And the truth is: you can never get your rifle clean. The Steyr AUG has a few places that are impossible to clean with the standard cleaning kits you get from the Army, and when an instructor tries to get a recruit into trouble, he can always check one of those dirty-for-sure places.

But then again, this only applies to the Steyr AUG.

Yeah, there are lots of secret places on the steyrs where gunk can accumulate and be an absolute b|tch to remove. My favourite spots to inspect was inside the stock arounds the rods, and the forward parts of the receiver (where they don't expect it to be dirty). No matter how hard the soldiers tried, i would always be able to find a dirty place on a rifle.

Not that I made a habit of making a soldiers life hard. In the field, a weapon gets dirty, and you need to ensure they are servicable (ie, will go bang and cycle reliably). But before a weapon goes back to the armoury, I expect the weapon to be thouroughly cleaned.

Anyway, back to the main point. There are circumstances when a soldier doesn't have the opportunity to keep his rifle spotless during operations. And a weapon that will continue to work in adverse conditions longer than the current standard (m4/m16) is a bonus and should be considered (assuming there aren't tradeoffs such as reduced accuracy etc..)

[Kilo1-1]

After doing some research, it seems that the 416 upper can be dropped on any Colt Gov model M4 lower. If the military doesn't want to move up to the 6.8mm round (logistical issue I suppose), then the least they can do is swap the current uppers with 416's uppers if cost allows.

[ShotOver]

I have a question, I am not much of a small arms expert though. I was wondering, if CAG are using the Hk 416, what about the FN SCAR? Both fire the 5.56 x 45 NATO round.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to put the Hk 416 upper onto the Colts that are already in service? Or would that be against the contracts with both weapon manufacturers.

Brings me back to the Fn SCAR, are they actually going to carry on and use this weapon system, even though CAG are going the Hk 416 option?

[Chops]

JSOC's only a small part of USSOCOM and operate pretty much by their own rules- they prefer 416s? That's what they get. The SCAR will see service with the vast majority of white SOF. On your question re cost of 416 uppers- perhaps Chen can comment?

[ShotOver]

Thanks mate, I was pretty sure it had something to do with what CAG wants CAG gets. I am looking forward to hearing the reports of field tested FN SCARs, regarding the problems the M4 faces with dirt and dust.

[maw]

if they want a piston operated ar why not the ares gsr? you don't change the upper reciever, the barrel or even the bolt. just replace the gas tube and the bolt carrier. the weight difference is negligible.

[BrianT]

A gun maker = Heckler & Koch.

The 416 is in use with some units in A'stan and Iraq, Capitol Police and Kennedy Space Center SWAT.

http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/uploads/medium/2006/CSA-2006-06-29-094002.jpg (http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/uploads/large/2006/CSA-2006-06-29-094002.jpg)
Hum I wonder what unit he's in. He's not 101 like the rest of the guys.

[MrGoodKat]

if they want a piston operated ar why not the ares gsr? you don't change the upper reciever, the barrel or even the bolt. just replace the gas tube and the bolt carrier. the weight difference is negligible.

Because the HK416 has other refinements beyond just the gas system. For example:

1. Refined locking recesses
2. Free-float return-to-zero quad rail
3. Stronger Buffer spring
4. Cold hammer forged barrel for approximately double the barrel life of the current system

[Beardog]

Hum I wonder what unit he's in. He's not 101 like the rest of the guys.

The answer my friend is blowing in... Chops post.

[Sabre]

I seriously doubt that a government contract would cover the sale of upper recievers only, with the intended use on another manufacturers lower. Government contracts tend to be whole unit items, ie weapon, sights, magazines, cleaning kit etc.

[velvet-cream]

I seriously doubt that a government contract would cover the sale of upper recievers only, with the intended use on another manufacturers lower. Government contracts tend to be whole unit items, ie weapon, sights, magazines, cleaning kit etc.


Dead on. If the weapon doesn't work, the two manufacturers would just blame each other for the shortcomings.

[Ericsson]

It’s better than the M4, but you can’t have one

By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday Feb 21, 2007 15:32:05 EST
Delta Force worked with a gun maker to come up with a better weapon. The 416 is now considered in many circles to be the best carbine in the world, but the regular Army is sticking with the M4 and M16.

Flash animation
Comparing carbines

Video
The H&K 416 Carbine in action

Army Times editorial
Field the best weapon

March 4, 2002. An RPG tore into the right engine of an MH-47 Chinook helicopter loaded with a quick-reaction force of Rangers in the Shahikot Mountains of eastern Afghanistan. The Chinook crashed atop Takur Ghar, a 10,000-foot peak infested with al-Qaida fighters.

Enemy fire poured into the fuselage, killing Rangers even before they got off the aircraft. Capt. Nate Self crawled out.

“As soon as I got off the ramp, a burst of rounds fired right over my head,” he recalled.

He joined a handful of his men in the open, exposed to enemy fire. An RPG exploded within a few feet of their position.

“We got up and started firing and moving to some boulders 15 meters away,” he said.

Once behind cover, Self tried to fire again, but his weapon jammed.

Instinctively, he tried to fix it with “immediate action,” a drill he’d practiced countless times.

“I pulled my charging handle back, and there was a round stuck in the chamber,” he recalled.

Like the rest of his men, Self always carried a cleaning rod zip-tied to the side of his weapon in case it failed to extract a round from the chamber.

“There was only one good way to get it out and that’s to ram it out with a cleaning rod,” he said. “I started to knock the round out by pushing the rod down the barrel, and it broke off. There was nothing I could do with it after that.”

The Rangers were fighting for their lives. Self left his covered position and ran under machine-gun fire to search for a working weapon.

“I just got up and moved back to the aircraft because I knew we had casualties there. I threw my rifle down and picked up another one.”

Self was awarded a Silver Star for his actions that day.

When even highly trained infantrymen like Self have problems with their M4 it is a sign there might be a problem with the weapon, not the soldier.

The problems had become obvious enough that at the time of the Afghanistan battle, members of the Army’s Delta Force had begun working on a solution. Today, Delta Force is fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan with a special carbine that’s dramatically more reliable than the M16s and M4s that the rest of the Army dependsupon.

Members of the elite unit linked up with German arms maker Heckler & Koch, which replaced the M4’s gas system with one that experts say significantly reduces malfunctions while increasing parts life. After exhaustive tests with the help of Delta, the H&K 416 was ready in 2004.

Members of the elite commando unit — formally known as 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta — have been carrying it in combat ever since.

The 416 is now considered in many circles to be the best carbine in the world — a weapon that combines the solid handling, accuracy and familiarity of the M4 with the famed dependability of the rugged AK47.

For the foreseeable future, however, the Army is sticking with the M4 and M16 for regular forces.

The Army plans to buy about 100,000 M4s in fiscal 2008. For this large a buy, each M4 without accessories costs about $800, Colt Chief Executive Officer William Keys said. As part of the contract, though, each M4 comes with a rail system for mounting optics and flashlights, a backup iron sight, seven magazines and a sling — additions that raise the price for each M4 package to about $1,300, according to Defense Department budget documents.

The price of each 416 “will range anywhere from $800 to $1,425 depending on volume and accessories,” said H&K’s CEO John Meyer Jr.

To Col. Robert Radcliffe, the man responsible for overseeing the Army’s needs for small arms, the M16 family is “pretty damn good.” It’s simply too expensive, he said, to replace it with anything less than a “significant leap in technology.”

Since 2000, that leap centered on development of the XM29 Objective Individual Combat Weapon — a dual system featuring a 5.56mm carbine on the bottom and a 25mm airburst weapon on top, capable of killing enemy behind cover at 1,000 meters.

Seven years and more than $100 million later, the 18-pound prototype — three times the weight of an M4 — is still too heavy and bulky for the battlefield.

“We think that somewhere around 2010, we should have enough insight into future technologies to take us in a direction we want to go for the next generation of small arms,” said Radcliffe, director of the Infantry Center’s Directorate of Combat Developments at Fort Benning, Ga.

“We will have M4s and M16s for years and years and years and years,” he said.“We are buying a bunch of M4s this year ... and we are doing it for all the right reasons, by the way. It’s doing the job we need it to do.”

But many soldiers and military experts say this mind-set is off target now that soldiers are locked in a harsh desert war with no end in sight.

“We are not saying the [M4 and M16 are] bad,” said former Army vice chief of staff retired Gen. Jack Keane. “The issue for me is do our soldiers have the best rifle in their hands.”

Before retiring in late 2003, Keane launched a campaign to modernize individual soldier gear after ground troops fighting in Afghanistan complained that they were ill-equipped for the current battlefield. As part of that campaign, Keane backed another effort to give soldiers a better rifle — the XM8, a spinoff of the OICW — only to see it sink last year in a sea of bureaucratic opposition.

“If we are going to build the best fighters, and put the best tanks on the ground, don’t our soldiers deserve, absolutely hands down, the best technology for a rifle?,” Keane said. “Not good enough, but the best.”

Reliability tested in war zone
Ever since the Army’s adoption of the M16 in the mid-1960s, a love-hate relationship has existed between combat troops and the weapon known as the “black rifle.”

It’s accurate and easy to shoot. Plus, the M16’s light weight and small caliber helped soldiers carry more ammunition than ever before into battle.

The M16, however, has always required constant cleaning to prevent it from jamming. The gas system, while simple in design, blows carbon into the receiver, which can lead to fouling.

The Army has decided to replace most of its M16s with the newer M4 carbine. The Army started buying M4s in the mid-1990s but mainly reserved them for rapid-deployment combat units. Its collapsible stock and shortened barrel make it ideal for soldiers operating in vehicles and tight quarters associated with urban combat.

Experts, however, contend that the M4 in many ways is even less reliable than the M16.

Special Operations Command documented these problems in a 2001 report, “M4A1 5.56mm Carbine and Related Systems Deficiencies and Solutions: Operational and Technical Study with Analysis of Alternatives.”

The M4 suffers from an “obsolete operating system,” according to the report, which recommended “redesign/replacement of current gas system.” It describes the weapon’s shortened barrel and gas tube as a “fundamentally flawed” design and blames it for problems such as “failure to extract” and “failure to eject” during firing. “The current system was never designed for the rigors of SOF use and training regimens — the M4 Carbine is not the gun for all seasons,” the report concluded.

However, Keys, a retired Marine Corps three-star general, said every M4 made at Colt meets the government’s standards.

“It’s quality, quality, everything is quality. If you don’t have the quality, you don’t get the gun,” Keys said.

Before taking the helm at Colt in 1999, Keys spent 35 years in the Marines. He served as a company commander with the 9th Marine Regiment in the Vietnam War and commanded the 2nd Marine Division during the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

“I know what a combat gun has to do in combat because I have been in combat,” he said. “I’m not going to put any out there that doesn’t do the job.”

In the 30 years following the Vietnam War, the Army existed mainly as a peacetime force. The 1991 Gulf War was an armor-dominated fight, lasting only 100 hours. Most soldiers put their rifles to little or no use. But after Sept. 11, 2001, soldiers found themselves fighting protracted shooting wars in the harshest regions on the planet.

M16 rifles and newer M4 carbines no longer were stored in clean arms room racks. They were now a soldier’s constant companion, exposed to the super-fine dust and sand that blow across the desert landscapes of Afghanistan and Iraq. Still, the Army is quick to blame most M16 family malfunctions on soldiers not cleaning weapons properly.

Looking for reliability
The key to the 416’s reliability lies in its gas system. It looks like the M4 carbine on the outside, but on the inside, H&K has replaced Colt’s “gas-tube” system with the short-stroke piston system. This eliminates carbon being blown back into the chamber, which leads to fouling problems, and greatly reduces parts wear created by super-heated gases used to cycle the weapon. The result, experts say, is that the 416 is more reliable, easier to maintain and has a longer parts life than the M4.

“It was a phenomenal gun,” said former Delta member and current H&K consultant Larry Vickers. “In my opinion it has the best gas system on the market for a shoulder-fired autoloading weapon. It’s lightweight, very efficient; it’s clean and has minimal heat transfer.”

Vickers retired as a master sergeant in 2003 after serving 15 of his 20 years on active duty with Delta. He played a major role in the development of the 416 while working as weapons research and development sergeant for Delta.

Vickers has stayed connected with the special operations community as a weapons trainer since his retirement. He remembered that Delta leaders were so happy with the 416 they bought the first 500 to come off the assembly line.

It was in Iraq in no time, but not before H&K and Delta put “a quarter-of-a-million rounds through it,” Vickers said. “It had the right kind of testing — endurance firing to 15,000 rounds with no lubrication. It runs like a sewing machine.”

At Colt’s plant in Connecticut, a government inspector pulls samples from each lot of M4s and performs a 108-point inspection to ensure they meet the Army’s specifications. M4s are also routinely subjected to endurance firing, but only to 6,000 rounds.

it’s the Army that sets the standard, Colt officials say.

“We make to their specs,” said Keys, the Colt CEO. “We are not authorized to make any kind of changes; the Army tells you what changes to make.

“If we have a change that we think would help the gun, we go to the Army … which is not an easy process, by the way. We spent 20 years trying to get [an extractor] spring changed. They just said ‘well, this works good enough.’”

Like Colt’s CEO, the head of H&K is a career military man with combat experience.

Meyer, a retired Army major general, said he thinks that the fact that soldiers are fighting with basically the same weapon he used four decades ago as a military police captain in Vietnam shows the Army places a low priority on small arms.

“This will sound parochial but I’m also an ex-soldier and I think it’s very shortsighted that we have a weapon that we are using now for 42 years,” Meyer said.

Meyer concedes H&K has a potential stake in any Army decision to replace its main personal weapon, but said his company’s position is “don’t buy HK, just have a competition … and if that 42-year-old weapon beats out all the competition, you will never hear a complaint from HK.”

The Army, however, isn’t interested in the 416 or any other current rifle technology.

“We will hold on trying to replace the small-arms fleet, and we will search for technologies that might give us significantly greater capabilities in … the next 10 years or something like that,” Radcliffe said.

Among those greater capabilities is what the Infantry Center refers to as “counter defilade technology,” but right now that only exists in the 18-pound OICW prototype known as the XM29. Fort Benning officials still want this airburst weapon, “not only to be able to shoot the enemy in defilade but to overcome soldier aim error,” said Jim Stone, deputy director of Benning’s Directorate of Combat Developments.

“Soldier aim error is not going to go away … you can reduce aim error through training, better optics and shooting techniques. There are a lot of things you can do to reduce aim error, but you will never take it out.”

The major problem with XM29 is that the combined weight of the carbine, airburst launcher and fire-control system was six to eight pounds heavier than the goal of a 10- to 12-pound system.

“So in addition to costing more than we wanted to pay and being bigger and bulkier and not meeting weight, the technology wasn’t there,” said Stone.

One Army general tried to salvage the stagnated program by developing the components of XM29 separately. Ret. Gen. James Moran transformed the XM29’s carbine into the XM8, a new family of small arms intended to replace the M16 family.

After spending three years and $33 million, the Army canceled the program in October 2005 amid mounting opposition in the joint world.

Soldiers weigh in on M4
Fort Benning officials maintain the XM8 wasn’t really needed since soldiers are happy with the M16 and M4, according to “post combat surveys,” in which Army small-arms officials routinely interview soldiers on how their weapons have performed in combat.

Benning officials would not release the survey data, but said the results showed no negative trends in the performance of soldier weapons. Army Times has requested the information through the Freedom of Information Act.

Army Times obtained a copy of Project Manager Soldier Weapons Assessment Team’s July 31, 2003, report, a similar survey that Infantry Center officials participated in along with other members of the Army’s small-arms community.

The executive summary said that M16s and M4s “functioned reliably” in the combat zone as long as “soldiers conducted daily operator maintenance and applied a light coat of lubricant,” the summary stated. The report also stated, “While keeping the weapon clean in this environment was a continuous requirement, it was not considered to be a difficult one.”

The stack of anonymous soldier comments that accompanied the report paints a different picture.

Though there were plenty of positive comments about the M16 and M4, soldiers weren’t shy about criticizing the weapons’ reliability.

A 3rd Infantry Division soldier wrote, “The weapon malfunctions in rough conditions/hard to keep clean.”

Another 3rd ID soldier wrote, “I know it fires very well and accurate [when] clean. But sometimes it needs to fire dirty well too.”

A 25th Infantry Division soldier wrote, “The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights. Sometimes we spend more time cleaning the weapon than firing it.”

An 82nd Airborne Division soldier wrote, “The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning.”

Elite forces also had similar criticisms of the M4.

A member of the 75th Ranger Regiment wrote, “Even with the dust cover closed and magazine in the well, sand gets all inside; on and around the bolt. It still fires, but after a while the sand works its way all through the gun and jams start.”

Self, the former 75th Ranger Regiment officer who had his weapon jam in Afghanistan, told Army Times that his unit routinely kept its M4s covered in a tent to protect them from dust and sand.

“I think it’s the sand” in Afghanistan, he said. “It’s a big problem.”

Infantry Center officials label these criticisms as purely anecdotal, and argue that there is no statistical data that shows reliability problems with the M16 or the M4.

That’s not exactly accurate, according to the Marines.

The M4 suffered significant reliability problems during Marine Corps testing in late summer 2002. According to briefing documents, Marine officials said the M4 malfunctioned three times more often than the M16A4 during an assessment conducted for Marine Corps Systems Command at Quantico, Va.

Malfunctions were broken down into several categories, including “magazine,” “failure to chamber,” “failure to fire,” “failure to extract” and “worn or broken part,” according to the briefing documents. During the comparison, the M4 failed 186 times across those categories over the course of 69,000 rounds fired. The M16A4 failed 61 times during the testing.

The Army conducted a more recent reliability test between October 2005 and April 2006, which included 10 new M16s and 10 new M4s. Testers fired 35,000 rounds through each weapon in laboratory conditions. On average, the new M16s and M4s fired approximately 5,000 rounds between stoppages, according to an Army official who asked that his name not be released.

By comparison, the 416 fires 10,000 to 15,000 rounds between stoppages in similar test conditions, Vickers said.

U.S. SOCOM would not comment on any aspect of the 416’s performance, Air Force Maj. Ken Hoffman, a spokesman for the command, said.

In addition to Delta, experts say the 416 is also in use by other specialized Army units, including the Asymmetric Warfare Group, as well as the Navy’s elite SEAL Team 6.

Infantry Center officials said it’s much easier for special mission units to find the money for new weapons.

“They can buy 50; we have to buy 50,000,” Stone said. “We are wise to watch them and follow them and see what we can learn from them, but that doesn’t mean that every time that they get a new pair of boots that we need to get a new pair of boots.”

Bang for the buck
Replacing the M16 family right now would cost too much money, Benning officials say.

“The truth is, to change out a fleet takes a tremendous amount of money,” Radcliffe said, referring to the task of outfitting a million soldiers with new weapons.

Experts say it would cost approximately $1 billion to replace the Army’s M16s and M4s with an “off-the-shelf” weapon like the 416.

One of the benefits of the 416’s piston rod design is it saves money on spare parts over time. SOCOM found that it doesn’t blow heat into the receiver as the M16 family’s gas system does. Heat dries out lubricants quickly and inflicts extreme wear on weapon parts.

It’s not as simple as moving to a piston rod gas system, though, said Col. Carl Lipsit, project manager for Soldier Weapons, explaining that the Army would have to hold a competition if it wanted to make such a change.

“You should always look at improving a weapon anytime you can. That said, when you do major changes to the form, fit and function, it may drive you to do a competition,” he said.

The 416 isn’t the only new weapon out there that’s found success with a piston rod design.

Delta’s move to the 416 prompted U.S. SOCOM to raise its standards for small-arms reliability. The command is developing a new group of weapons that will replace all those from the M16 family.

In November 2004, SOCOM awarded a developmental contract to FN Herstal to develop its new Special Operations Combat Assault Rifle.

The SCAR has a short-stroke, gas piston operating system, similar to the M1 carbine from World War II and the Korean War.

H&K officials now describe their decision not to enter the 416 in the SCAR competition as a “strategic mistake,” Meyer said.

If all goes well, that program is scheduled to go into full-rate production late this year, said FN officials, who hope to build up to 20,000 weapons for SOCOM.

Colt, meanwhile, has developed two M4-style prototypes with the piston rod design.

“Does it shoot better? I don’t know if it shoots better; it has different characteristics than the [M16 family’s] design,” Keys said. “For some reason, some of the military think that is the way to go. We could do either one … We want to be ready for any requirement that comes down the road. We will do whatever it takes to satisfy the customer.”

To Keane, holding a competition is the only way for the Army to make sure soldiers still have the best weapons available.

“The fact of the matter is that technology changes every 10 or 15 years and we should be changing with it,” he said. “And that has not been our case. We have been sitting on this thing for far too long.”

Perhaps the most well-known incident of M16s failing in battle involves the 507th Maintenance Company in 2003 during the opening days of the ground invasion of Iraq.

Enemy forces ambushed 507th soldiers outside Nasiriyah, killing 11 and capturing six, when the unit became separated from a supply convoy.

Several of the 507th soldiers later complained that their M16s, and other weapons, failed them during the March 23 ambush.

The Army responded by revamping Basic Training to make sure soldiers knew how to better maintain their weapons and perform malfunction drills.

What’s not so well known is how then-Pfc. Patrick Miller earned a Silver Star for keeping his M16 from jamming long enough to take out an enemy mortar position.

“We were taking fire from everywhere,” Sgt. Miller recalled in a recent Army Times interview.

Enemy fire had knocked out his five-ton truck, forcing him to fight on foot.

He dove for cover behind a dirt berm and spotted an Iraqi soldier manning a mortar position across the road.

“It looked like he was trying to drop the shell in the tube. That is when I fired the first shot and the guy went down.”

When he pulled the trigger again, nothing happened.

“After the first shot, the round ejected. When the next round went to go in, it froze up,” he said. “It didn’t feed all the way into the chamber.”

Miller pounded on the forward assist, a tiny plunger on the M16’s receiver designed to manually push the weapon’s bolt into the chamber.

He fired his rifle once more, and it jammed again. Miller tried the immediate action drill he learned in Basic Combat Training — he slapped the bottom of the magazine to reseat it, pulled the charging handle back to look into the chamber. When he released, the bolt wouldn’t chamber the next round.

Changing magazines didn’t work either.

“After the third magazine I decided it took longer to change mags than to beat on the forward assist,” he said.

That worked, but his weapon would only fire a single shot and jam again.

“I was beating that thing with the palm of my hand four or five times for each round,” he recalled.

Miller managed to fire about eight times using this frantic sequence under enemy fire.

It was a valiant, but futile, effort. His fellow soldiers were trying to fight, but their weapons failed them as well.

Miller turned around and shot at a target behind him.

“When I turned there were about 40 Iraqis that had moved up on the road” approaching his position, he said. “At that time there was not much else I could have done.”

Miller put down his rifle and surrendered.

[silveykyle]

repost of some sort, check over in the gear section

[DE_Six]

Someone posted pics on AR15com of a batch of custom made SBRs for some 10SFGA guys.

Leitner-Wise piston system, Noveske polygonal barrels, Grenadier Precision free-float, continuous top rail handguards...

I don't know, but it seemed like an even sweeter deal than the HK, considering the reviews Noveske barrels have been getting. And a lighter package too.

Maybe the gun gurus can tell us about that.

[BrianT]

The answer my friend is blowing in... Chops post.
Saying JSOC isn't very descriptive. Probably some Air Force guy.

[DE_Six]

After some digging around, turned out the LW/Noveske uppers were for 5 SFGA, but I also found they made some for 3rd and 7th groups as well. Noveske even made a lighter profile M4 barrel as a replacement for the standard 14.5 barrels.

I found some pics of the SBRs:
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5104/11602image224332av7.jpg

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5033/11603image224330vr3.jpg

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8430/11604image224329yb8.jpg

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9243/11605image224328in5.jpg

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2599/11606image224327mm7.jpg

In the sandbox:

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7554/13339incubby4ecuh4.jpg

SMGLee posted a short review of the LW piston system here:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=33320&page=&fpart=1&vc=1

[Laworkerbee]

repost of some sort, check over in the gear section

X2 416 threads sprouting up like weeds

[vinny_121_ND]

this is like the second time I've seen this post. This hk 416 is making headwaves. I want to see first hand how this rifle works.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

After doing some research, it seems that the 416 upper can be dropped on any Colt Gov model M4 lower. If the military doesn't want to move up to the 6.8mm round (logistical issue I suppose), then the least they can do is swap the current uppers with 416's uppers if cost allows.

The Army is insistant on keeping the current M4 and M16 rifles and carbines, basically what one poster said earlier, if it aint broken, don't fix it.

It says on the article I think that it would cost $1 billion to convert to the 416 format, I read the reason the gov't is hesitant on converting from 5.56 to 6.8 is because of the premature wear and tear the 6.8 causes to the internal parts, I've read this on many different magazines that conducted tests on a variety of M4 makers.

The 6.8 is also primarily, from what I read, a CQB type cartridge and not as accurate out @ 200 yds as the 5.56, an argument that .223 buffs use to make their case, they say, if you wanna stop someone in their tracks in CQB, then put the shots in the right places and they'll drop.

Its basically the same argument, "you don't need to convert, you just need to rely on your training.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Hum I wonder what unit he's in. He's not 101 like the rest of the guys.

The combat patch of the guy climbing the fence is the 101st, but the guy with the 416 may be either sf or ranger, and I bet he is probably a ranger

[SMGLee]

Joshua,

6.8 is actually very accurate out to distant.

[mohica]

There are better piston systems available than the HK in my opinion. I believe the Colt system which is basically the same system that ran through the SCAR trials with flying colors is gonna be it, if and when they ever release it. Colt has been talking about releasing the 1020 for about a year now and it hasn't happened.

With a recent contract of approximately $269,000,000 for M4's, it may not be on the front burner. Also, the M5 is in development which might be the "end all". This all remains to bee seen. A fellow on another forum said he spoke to Elmore at SHOT and he said Colt didn't even have a plant to make the 1020's in and he didn't know when they would. That doesn't sound too encouraging.

The 416 is more complicated, heavier, and more costly than Colt or LWRC. SOCOM rejected it. I have shot the 416 and it was ok. I shot the LWRC and liked it much better. It was noticeably lighter. I am gonna give Colt a bit more time and if nothing happens, it is LWRC for me.

[Some Guy]

The combat patch of the guy climbing the fence is the 101st, but the guy with the 416 may be either sf or ranger, and I bet he is probably a ranger

He's in "4th Batt"
ha ha

[Ericsson]

it's not from HK pro
it's from the Army time
so it's established merit

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Joshua,

6.8 is actually very accurate out to distant.

Correct, I hear that bolt action sniper rifles are now being chambered in 6.8, but my point was that the gov't insist that since the .223 is more accurate @ 200 yds than a 6.8 in a carbine configuration, there is no need to convert to a cartridge that was specifically designed for CQB.

Thats there argument, not mine.

Of course, all the complaints were being made coincedently on 14 inchers, not the 16 inchers.

One could argue that the .223 has a lil bit less accuracy on a 14 inch barrell just the same as a 6.8 has a lil bit less on a 14 incher.

But I think the one complaint that kills 6.8's pros is that internal parts take a beating and break down quicker than that of a carbine in .223

I like the 6.8 and am waiting for RRA to come out with one in the spring to see what kinda price tag its gonna have.

Has anyone tried or seen the POF carbines and rifles?
They have the same gas piston system as HK and others and supposedly the bolts are self lubricating and can run through 15,000 rds without a jam.

[BrianT]

The combat patch of the guy climbing the fence is the 101st, but the guy with the 416 may be either sf or ranger, and I bet he is probably a ranger
Definitely not Ranger and I'd be surprised if he's SF.

[YoUeSpEa]

It's not even a 416 in the photo.

yes it is.. look at the bolt. the 416 has a crome bolt.

[artinist]

why are the HK416 and the HK417 military/law inforcement only? its not like they can keep track of them since they are not numbered.

[Macs.]

why are the HK416 and the HK417 military/law inforcement only? its not like they can keep track of them since they are not numbered.

Rumor has it that they will release a civil version of the 416 in Germany.

[Laworkerbee]

Rumor has it that they will release a civil version of the 416 in Germany.

Thats not fair

[TacoDelRio]

Thats not fair

Hehe we can get the new HK 416-10, 10rd only break-open rifle of doom! p-)

:petting:

[constantinople]

ou can get somthing similar to this system at this website http://www.pof-usa.com/ . an upper is like $1000, a complete is like $2000. its good stuff.

[Pook2]

Thats not fair

GIVE US ZEE MONEY LEBOTSKI!

[Laworkerbee]

GIVE US ZEE MONEY LEBOTSKI!

"Liam and me, we're gonna **** you up..."

"Yeah, well, you know, that's your opinion, man..."

[Kilo1-1]

Regarding my earlier post about why the government decided against dropping the HK uppers into existing Colt lowers...

"The Army, however, isn’t interested in the 416 or any other current rifle technology."
“We think that somewhere around 2010, we should have enough insight into future technologies to take us in a direction we want to go for the next generation of small arms,” said Radcliffe, director of the Infantry Center’s Directorate of Combat Developments at Fort Benning, Ga.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219forafmcnt/
-------
I guess they want to "wait" for something better....but waiting doesn't seem to fix any current problems that can be fixed.

-------
"In addition to Delta, experts say the 416 is also in use by other specialized Army units, including the Asymmetric Warfare Group, as well as the Navy’s elite SEAL Team 6.
Infantry Center officials said it’s much easier for special mission units to find the money for new weapons.
“They can buy 50; we have to buy 50,000,” Stone said. “We are wise to watch them and follow them and see what we can learn from them, but that doesn’t mean that every time that they get a new pair of boots that we need to get a new pair of boots.”"
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219forafmcnt/
------
I guess it's probably logistical reasons which is a valid problem...but I remember reading that the unit cost for the 416 wasn't that much higher than current Colt models.
------
"The Army plans to buy about 100,000 M4s in fiscal 2008. For this large a buy, each M4 without accessories costs about $800, Colt Chief Executive Officer William Keys said. As part of the contract, though, each M4 comes with a rail system for mounting optics and flashlights, a backup iron sight, seven magazines and a sling — additions that raise the price for each M4 package to about $1,300, according to Defense Department budget documents.

The price of each 416 “will range anywhere from $800 to $1,425 depending on volume and accessories,” said H&K’s CEO John Meyer Jr."
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219forafmcnt/
------
Almost the same price tag, but no one is sure if the 416 comes all the stuff the Colt M4A1s has in its package since the article didn't specify.

Probably the reason to delay (or the possibility of the government never adopting to the 416 uppers (or complete systems)) is most likely political and logistical?

[Ding Chavez]

how long before there's an airsoft version of this? ;-)

[TacoDelRio]

how long before there's an airsoft version of this? ;-)

I already have one. VFC HK416 Carbine 10.5"

LOL AIRSOFT LOL inherently funny since it's not a real firearm LOL.

woot

[Andrew Chalmers]

The 416 looks suprising similar to T-91... gas-piston instead of direct? seems like they engineered a forward-assist for the US market... Taiwan's T-91 has been preferred in many Middle Eastern states for its resistance to poor-cleaning.

[Andromeda]

I know most of you have probably seen it and watched this a million times but just incase some of you havent.

HK416 Video From Future Weapons http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ObWpWXrt9I

[Beowulf]

The M4 works fine, every joe in the army doesn't need the newest bestest toys, that's why they are joes, and the SMU guys are SMU guys.

I wanna strangle somebody everytime I see some PAC clerk with an M4 all gucci'd out on a FOB somewhere its retarded.

I'm tired about hearing all this bitching in the media about how every single soldier has to have all this HSLD gear.

[Navor]

IIRC there should be various SCAR Modells out now, around 1000 Rifles.
So there could normally not be any Problem to field them too Delta and Others and if you wait another Month or so the number would have doubled,so why ist Delta sticking doe HK when they get or got there SCAR already. I mean they use the weapon,for how long 6 Months and after that they have to stick to the SCAR. For me that sound like a logistical Nightmare

[Chops]

Delta don't have to 'stick to' anything that USSOCOM adopts. If they want to carry it they carry it. The SMUs have incredible flexibility and procurement processes which support that flexibility.

[Loomisfarms01]

since the piston, rod, gas regulators add weigth to the barrel, in order to have a accurate system that is still accurate under heavy fire, and it is still free float, HK engineers had to increase the diameter of the barrel in order to support all the add on parts to the front end. thus the weight.

What? :roll:

The only reason the HK416 has a heavy barrel is becuase it was designed right during the same time SOCOM was having such issues with the standard M4 barrel. It has absolutely nothing to do with the piston system.

That being said, lighter contour barrels are available now as an option. With the lighter barrel the weight compares favorably to any AR and is certianly the equal to any other gas piston AR available.

[Loomisfarms01]

Someone posted pics on AR15com of a batch of custom made SBRs for some 10SFGA guys.

Leitner-Wise piston system, Noveske polygonal barrels, Grenadier Precision free-float, continuous top rail handguards...

I don't know, but it seemed like an even sweeter deal than the HK, considering the reviews Noveske barrels have been getting. And a lighter package too.

Maybe the gun gurus can tell us about that.

To set the record straight:

Does a handfull (Less than ten) of privately purchased (At an extreme discount) truely count as being "In service with U.S. SF"? This sounds like Internet marketing to me. HK has thousands of HK416's in service. LWRC has less than ten, none of which were purchased by the units you reference.

They basically hooked up a tiny few individuals for the photo opportunity and marketing of it.

[Loomisfarms01]

The M4 works fine, every joe in the army doesn't need the newest bestest toys, that's why they are joes, and the SMU guys are SMU guys.

I wanna strangle somebody everytime I see some PAC clerk with an M4 all gucci'd out on a FOB somewhere its retarded.

I'm tired about hearing all this bitching in the media about how every single soldier has to have all this HSLD gear.

This is moronic.

I want every single U.S. servicemen to have the very best available. Anything else is a disgrace and for some Internet forum guy to post this is insulting to everyone of them.

[Pete031]

Wow, 5 posts in this forum, and 3 of them are in a row.... Becareful of who you insult on this forum, there is a lot of experience here...
SO chill the **** out and figure out your place.

[ABNINF]

Screw the HK, I think when I convert, I'm going POF.

http://www.pof-usa.com/gaspistonuppers/gaspistonuppers.htm

Hey Chen, any personal experience with these? Been doing a little research on them and they seem to be fairly well put together.

[Loomisfarms01]

Wow, 5 posts in this forum, and 3 of them are in a row.... Becareful of who you insult on this forum, there is a lot of experience here...
SO chill the **** out and figure out your place.

I have handled and shot numerous HK416's.

When people insult U.S. servicemen I get upset. I don't care who posted it.

[Pete031]

I have handled and shot numerous HK416's.

When people insult U.S. servicemen I get upset. I don't care who posted it.

Laa tee daa,
I'm sure the dude you are insulting would like to see one, if you are in Baghdad next week or in Southern Afghanistan sometime down the road, maybe you could show him one.
Catch my drift?

[ABNINF]

Wow, 5 posts in this forum, and 3 of them are in a row.... Becareful of who you insult on this forum, there is a lot of experience here...
SO chill the **** out and figure out your place.

x2, Loomis, you've just insulted 2 very well respected members of this forum. I'd tread softly

[Loomisfarms01]

x2, Loomis, you've just insulted 2 very well respected members of this forum. I'd tread softly

I simply corrected one who is horribly wrong and replied another who insulted U.S. military "Average Joe's". :) Who on this forum has the right to disrespect U.S. servicemen out risking their lives everyday?

I don't feel bad about it.

Do you want correct information or well planned Internet marketing?

I'm waiting to see somebody base their disagreement with me over facts.

[Seraphim]

New DOTW?????

[ABNINF]

I simply corrected one who is horribly wrong and replied another who insulted U.S. military "Average Joe's". :) Who on this forum has the right to disrespect U.S. servicemen out risking their lives everyday?

Well, the guy that "insulted" the "Average Joe's" is a guy we call a BTDT (Been There Done That). He's knowledgeable and probably has vastly more experience in these matters than you do. I agree with him. The average "Joe" that sits on the FOB, drinks coffee and consumes Snickers Ice Cream bars from the Chow hall all day, does not need all this HS gear. It should go to the trigger pullers who need it. BTW, this is coming from an "average joe"

[Loomisfarms01]

Well, the guy that "insulted" the "Average Joe's" is a guy we call a BTDT (Been There Done That). He's knowledgeable and probably has vastly more experience in these matters than you do. I agree with him. The average "Joe" that sits on the FOB, drinks coffee and consumes Snickers Ice Cream bars from the Chow hall all day, does not need all this HS gear. It should go to the trigger pullers who need it. BTW, this is coming from an "average joe"

I say everybody going to the front lines needs the very best, AFTER the infantry get theirs it should move right down the line. In this type of war anybody can be in combat.

FYI - Civil Affairs Unit?

[ABNINF]

FYI - Civil Affairs Unit?



What are you trying to say? That you're in a Civil Affairs unit?

[TacoDelRio]

I think he thinks you're a PAO.

[scrybe]

Beowulf works at the on base gym in Ramstein, Germany checking out basketballs. None of us listen to him here either.

[Beowulf]

Beowulf works at the on base gym in Ramstein, Germany checking out basketballs. None of us listen to him here either.

damn my cover is blown.

You better return that Spalding you signed out or the space shuttle will be coming for you.

[Beowulf]

This is moronic.

I want every single U.S. servicemen to have the very best available. Anything else is a disgrace and for some Internet forum guy to post this is insulting to everyone of them.

hmm, I think your opinion is based on good intentions, but a little misguided.

I'll ignore for the moment your obvious lack of situational awareness.

The army is a very large organization and to say that every soldier needs access to every piece of HSLD gear is simply not feasible, or even safe.

There are joes on FOB that aren't even allow to carry ammo because they lack the discipline to do so safely, do they need an HK416 w/ a PEQ, and vert foregrip?

I don't think so.

Special Mission Units, have a special mission, and therefore deserve special equipment. That feel good "give every soldier a Mk3 plasma blaster rifle with mini nuke attachment" is complete crap.

[mohica]

HK has thousands of HK416's in service.

Reeeeally. How about a source for your claim. Let's see if you can back up your statement.

[ABNINF]

I think he thinks you're a PAO.


I think, he would be wrong

[Chops]

I think he's full of ****.

[Indirect Fire]

Looks like a cheap M4 ripoff (back) and a shorter version of the M16 (barrel).

[scrybe]

.....is this guy serious?

[Indirect Fire]

.....is this guy serious?

Me???

You don't need a brand new gun with Really-Expnsive-Night-Vison-and-Nail Clipper Attatchment for better performance for fighting Insurgents.

You just need 5.56mm ammo, a good barrel, and aiming at the target and pulling the trigger.

[TacoDelRio]

Looks like a cheap M4 ripoff (back) and a shorter version of the M16 (barrel).

Actually it's closer to an FN FAL. I think they make it in China or something.

[Pete031]

Me???

You don't need a brand new gun with Really-Expnsive-Night-Vison-and-Nail Clipper Attatchment for better performance for fighting Insurgents.

You just need 5.51mm ammo, a good barrel, and aiming at the target and pulling the trigger.

5.51 or 5.56mm???

[scrybe]

Me???

You don't need a brand new gun with Really-Expnsive-Night-Vison-and-Nail Clipper Attatchment for better performance for fighting Insurgents.

You just need 5.51mm ammo, a good barrel, and aiming at the target and pulling the trigger.

I feel like your stupidity is infectious.

[Seraphim]

I feel like your stupidity is infectious.

Yes, can someone make him stop posting...it's making my head hurt.

[alfigel]

5.51 or 5.56mm???

5.51 mm. The airgun pellet calibre. *hrhr*

[Indirect Fire]

What about the weight?

I meant 5.56mm. Sorry about that. I would appreciate some "politeness" towards a newbie though.


Yes, can someone make him stop posting...it's making my head hurt.

I'm an AF jock...

[scrybe]

I'm torn, because I want to rip him to pieces, but I'm afraid it's some 14 year old with Down Syndrome.

[Pete031]

I'm torn, because I want to rip him to pieces, but I'm afraid it's some 14 year old with Down Syndrome.

Ha.. DO it man... Don't be a pussy.

[asch]

I would appreciate some "politeness" towards a newbie though.
we all would appreciate if this particular newbie begin to think before posting.

p.s. i think you need a new cool user title.

[LaoSexMachine]

What about the weight?

I meant 5.56mm. Sorry about that. I would appreciate some "politeness" towards a newbie though.



I'm an AF jock...

How about you shut your cockholster?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

I would appreciate some "politeness" towards a newbie though.

Try earning some respect first.



I'm an AF jock...

So...?

[Indirect Fire]

I consider every mistake to be stepping stone if analyze and corrected.

I am in the Indian Air Force, and I joined this site to learn more about guns employed around the world. I know a bit, and I actually initially qualified as a marksman with the Indian Army, but went into the Air Force instead.

I just want to get better at this.

[scrybe]

Read more, post less.

[Pete031]

I consider every mistake to be stepping stone if analyze and corrected.

I am in the Indian Air Force, and I joined this site to learn more about guns employed around the world. I know a bit, and I actually initially qualified as a marksman with the Indian Army, but went into the Air Force instead.

I just want to get better at this.

SO it is just a coincidence that you mistake airsoft rounds for real rounds?
That you have a self propelled arty piece on your profile, aswell as your name, yet you joined the Airforce?
As said by scrybe, read more and post less Dude

[Indirect Fire]

SO it is just a coincidence that you mistake airsoft rounds for real rounds?
That you have a self propelled arty piece on your profile, aswell as your name, yet you joined the Airforce?
As said by scrybe, read more and post less Dude

Family is in the Air Force, and thus... The rest is history as they do say. The artillery piece is on there because I do like Indirect Fire, and it is based on the Arjun chassis.

Btw, I didn't know 5.51 was an airsoft round until now.

[Macs.]

Indirect Fire is just talking crap.

[Chops]

He is indeed Macs. He is also now banned for running two accounts-
hdgcfcf- on SW Bell accounts which would surprise me if he was in the subcontinent. Where do these ****s crawl in from?

(http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/admincp/user.php?do=edit&u=31080)

[Death.]

SO it is just a coincidence that you mistake airsoft rounds for real rounds?


*GASP*

Airsoft round is more like 5.8-5.98 mm....just to be a little more precise.

he just pulled "5.51" out his arse.

[Pete031]

*GASP*

Airsoft round is more like 5.8-5.98 mm....just to be a little more precise.

he just pulled "5.51" out his arse.

I haven't the slightest clue about airsoft.

[BadKarma26]

not giving any info about the picture/person but is this a 416?


http://i17.tinypic.com/43rr0cm.jpg (http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=43rr0cn)

[TacoDelRio]

Looks like a standard M4 carbine with an A.R.M.S. S.I.R. Rail system. Long-ass acronym.

[Freibier]

Not 100% sure but this looks like a standard M4 with ARMS SIR


edit: damn, taco beat me to it

[GoSka37]

not giving any info about the picture/person but is this a 416?


http://i17.tinypic.com/43rr0cm.jpg (http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=43rr0cn)

That... is just an M4 with SIR system.

[Seraphim]

I believe its a RPK...

[Hydro]

It's a PKM.

[Anthony91]

Greg Sanchez...

Though the soldier in BK's post has a nice rifle. :D

[Exer]

Heres a email / article that will somewhat explain the article about the 416. Its gonna be split in two sections :
Until the cancellation of the XM8 program in 2005, Army Times and its staff writer, Matthew Cox, strongly promoted the HK XM8 for its adoption as the service weapon for the US Army. In his recent feature article, “It’s better than the M4, but you can’t have one” Mr. Cox attributes cancellation of the XM8 program to “a sea of bureaucratic opposition.” Mr. Cox fails to mention a DoD IG report on the Acquisition of the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (D-2006-004) dated October 7, 2005, which addresses the XM8 Program and is found at http://www.dodig.mil/audit/reports. This DoD IG report clearly stated the rationale, which indicated the XM8 offered no potential efficiency over the present weapons systems, as well as including mismanagement by those persons responsible for the program, both of which clearly may have been a strong consideration in the cancellation of the program. Another related and informative DoD IG report is Competition of the 5.56 Millimeter Carbine (D-2007-026) dated November 22, 2006 and is also found at http://www.dodig.mil/audit/reports. Now, promoting the HK 416, Mr. Cox references unnamed experts, misrepresents data for comparison between the HK 416 and M4, misleads readers by using findings in a 2001 SOCOM report on the M4 and a Marine Corps test of the M4 in 2002 but he does not inform the reader of measures taken immediately by the Army and Colt to eliminate those problems, uses quotes to imply the M16 and M4 are the same weapon used 42 years ago, which they are clearly not, and bases his argument for adoption of the HK 416 for the entire US Army on use by a group of elite operators within SOCOM who rightfully develop their own kit of weapons and modify them to their needs. His stated rationale is based on unsupervised tests made on a rifle made in Germany.

Additionally, his writing very wrongly alleges that Army leadership is not providing our men and women in uniform the best weapon available and, more disturbing, his article irresponsibly raises a concern to the Soldiers, Marines and Special Operations Forces in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan and their families that their service weapon is not reliable. This is absolutely not a true statement and could cause serious morale issues to those engaged in day to day combat operations and to those in leadership positions in these units. To go further I would question his loyalty to those in uniform and his lack of real credibility, truthfulness and personal integrity in writing an article of this nature.

The M4 speaks for itself as to its combat credibility. Before its introduction into the US Army inventory in 1994 it was subjected to the full range of functioning and environmental tests required by the US Army test and evaluation process. Later, as a result of the 2001 SOCOM report on the M4, referred to by Mr. Cox, the US Army and Colt immediately conducted a joint effort to rectify the problems raised. This effort took until spring 2002 and manufacturing changes were implemented at Colt by fall 2002. Meanwhile, the Marine Corps conducted their own test of the M4 with weapons produced prior to the fall 2002 manufacturing change and they experienced similar problems as SOCOM. These issues were also resolved with the manufacturing changes implemented thereafter. From fall 2002 to today, government quality deficiency reports for the M4 have been nearly non-existent and that is attributable to the joint effort between the US Army and Colt to solve the problems raised in the 2001 and 2002 reports. Additionally, regarding reliability of the M4, from fall 2002, US government inspectors at the Colt plant have overseen the firing of nearly 4,000,000 (million) endurance rounds with only three endurance gun failures: one in January 2004, one in July 2005 and one in August 2005. The government quality assurance representative at Colt holds the documents supporting this testing. In June 2006, Colt had the opportunity to endurance fire an HK 416. At 3,000 rounds, a broken firing pin spring was found in the HK 416. Without a spare part, the endurance testing was ended. Other findings in those 3,000 rounds of firing were frequent loosening of the hand guard retainer screw and the cyclic rate of fire was over 1,000 rounds per minute. The gas piston system in the H&K 416 is not a new system and was initially rejected by the Army for the M16 in the 1960’s. Colt Defense has the present ability and expertise to manufacture in great numbers piston system carbines of exceptional quality should the US Army and other US Services initiate a combat requirement for this type of weapon. Attached is an email written to Mr. Cox by a recognized weapons expert, Mr. Chris Bartocci, author of Black Rifle II, who provides background on the M16 and M4. Anecdotal examples of fouled weapons are not taken lightly, yet the information is not helpful if the type of fouling is not clearly defined. In a desert environment, for example, sand and dust have the same effects on a weapon, whether it has a gas piston system or a gas impingement system. This issue is completely different from a debate over a gas piston system operating cleaner than a gas impingement system. Is a gas piston operated weapon less vulnerable to the effects of the desert than a gas impingement system? If so, where are the results of the controlled tests. Additionally, there are a number of reasons for fouling of weapons to include the reliability of the ammunition and reliability of magazines. The M16 and M4 have undergone major enhancements since introduction of the M16 into the US military inventory in the 1960s. These enhancements have improved functioning, reliability, maintenance and versatility for the individual Soldier and Marine throughout the years. Currently, there is a government funded operational evaluation being conducted for SOCOM by Colt and Ultra Chem Technologies (UCT) for greaseless operating parts on the M4 to improve maintenance, functioning and the wear of select parts of the weapon. In closing, at the 2006 Laboratory and Industry Day sponsored by the Chief of Infantry and Commanding General United States Army Infantry Center & School, Fort Benning, Georgia, the M4 Carbine was listed by the Commanding General and included in his brief as one of the many success stories in combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

James R. Battaglini
MajGen, USMC (Ret)
Chief Operating Officer
Colt Defense LLC

[Exer]

Email from Chris Bartocci, author, “Black Rifle II” to Matthew Cox, Army Times dated February 20, 2007

Mr.Cox,

I just had the opportunity to read your article "It's better than the M4, but you can't have it" regarding the HK416 compared to the M4. I have to say I was quite disturbed. My name is Chris Bartocci, I am the author of Collector Grade Publications title, Black Rifle II. This is the definitive history of the product development and procurement of the M16/M4 carbine from 1985 to present. I am also a contributing editor to Small Arms Review magazine as well as many other publications. My area of expertise is the M16 family of weapons and am quite familiar with the HK416. I am also very familiar with firearms design and trouble shooting (particularly the M16/M4 family of weapons).

I do not feel you portrayed the facts of the service of the M4/M16 rifle correctly and in fact it is quite disturbing. This is very much the propaganda that H&K has been pushing since they came up with the idea that the direct gas system was flawed and they had the century old magical piston system which they claim is new. Please let me give you some background that you might not be aware of nor the people you interviewed for this article. First the M16 rifle was designed to give decreased weight and ability to provide aimed and accurate semi as well as automatic fire. During the development phases, the conventional piston system had been around for more than 50 years, the same way the H&K system is now. The Army during the war in Vietnam tested all these weapons side by side and it was found the AR-15 outperformed all of them in accuracy and reliability. Being rushed into service, the Army disregarded the orders of the Secretary of Defense to put the AR-15 through a development process and got it ready for the troops in the field. Problems began with malfunctions when the ammunition propellant was changed and chambers corroded due to the Army not finding it necessary to test ammunition that had been changed from its spec nor to chrome plate the chamber, which is a significant reliability enhancement that became a Mil-Spec after the war in the Pacific during WW2. Every small arm in the U.S. inventory had it but the AR-15.

During this time, the AK47 was already known already for its reliability in adverse conditions. So the Army asked Colt to develop an M16 that would utilize the piston system (AK-type same as HK416). Colt developed their model 703, which was the same type piston system. This is in the late 1960's. After the congressional hearings on the M16 program came out, and the Army was accused of being "borderline criminally negligent" on their entire handling of the M16 weapons program, the rifles were modified to work with the newly manufactured 5.56mm ball ammunition. This included a change in the manufacturing process and design of the buffer, chamber, bolt and some trigger components, and the piston system was dropped by the Army. After the "bugs" were worked out and the new M16A1 came online, the reliability increased and troops who went to Vietnam after 1969 encountered little trouble. My point is that the piston driven AR is an old concept that the Army rejected in favor of the direct gas system currently in use in the M16. They found no significant increase in reliability due to the use of the piston system. The M16/M4 would go on to be the most combat proven 5.56mm rifle and carbine in the world seeing service in every climate in the world. From the jungles of Southeast Asia, the deserts of the Middle East and the Arctic of Canada and Alaska. All have been chosen by armed forces in the regions including Canada (Arctic) and Israel (Desert). For one to call the M16/M4 operating system "Obsolete" is untrue and unprofessional. This system has worked in combat reliably for more than 40 years. It worked then and it works now. I do not hear anybody calling the M1911 obsolete after more than 100 years of service. It works as well now as it did then. For something to be obsolete would mean it was replaced with something better, the Army has tried several times and goes back to this system. It is only obsolete to a faction that is trying to dislodge the weapon from service and get theirs adopted. The only way to constitute a change is to claim the current equipment is flawed. This is basic marketing.

Colt developed the M4 carbine in the late 1980's with it being finalized in 1995 and type classified as the first general purpose carbine since the M1 carbine of World War 2. It was designed for troops that needed more power than a pistol but could not carry a standard rifle. Colt was given restrictions by the Army to mandate significant amounts of part interchangeability with the current M16A2 rifle. The Army was more concerned with interchangeability than reliability and Colt had to work within this framework. As the carbines began to circulate, it was not the truck drivers, tankers and maintenance people who were carrying them, it was front line special operations forces operators. Those who would later go on record calling this weapon flawed because the 6 pound carbine would not function as a high volume of fire, light support, belt fed weapon they required. They also went on record saying they use this weapon well beyond its design parameters. This does not mean this weapon is flawed, it means it was not designed for what they wanted to use it for. Regular Army units loved the M4 carbine, over the M16A2 and A4. That is why Colt has received additional contracts since the wars began. The regular troop use them as intended.

You made mention of the SCAR program where Special Operations Forces adopted (although not fielded) the FN rifle. Some additional pertinent information is that the reason for the SCAR program had much to do with SOCOM wanting to be their own project manager and have the ability to make changes to the weapon specific to them. This is something they could not do with the M4A1. The M4A1 is a procured weapon by the Department of Defense from Colt and is subject to mil-standards and the technical data package. You mentioned the government inspectors at Colt, which is part of this. As the M4 and M4A1 are adopted, these are the standards Colt must meet, no more and no less. Any change or modification must be requested by the Department of Defense, not SOCOM. For example, SOCOM had issues with barrels bursting when used under extreme firing sessions and they made the claim the barrels were flawed. When Rock Island Arsenal investigated they found that the firing schedules from 540 to 596 rounds per minute were fired within 3 and 3.5 minutes and heated the barrels up over 1300 degrees, which is their transformation temperature. The round count that resulted is more ammunition than a combat soldier would even carry. Machine guns change barrels due to this heat. Rock Island found that this had not occurred in any place other than SOCOM and that it was cause by abuse of the weapons and would not act on any changes from Colt. Another major issue SOCOM had was maintenance. They had no real maintenance schedules to replace worn parts so they ran weapons without round counts and maintenance until they broke. As General Keys mentioned about the extractor spring that is how difficult it is to get the Army to make changes. The Army would not make changes to the weapons if they worked for them. SOCOM could not request the changes needed due to them not being the procurement agency. This led to animosity and friction between Colt and SOCOM. Colt has had many improvements they have made to the government over the years to improve the weapons and they were shot down every time.

When the SCAR trials came out, SOCOM was the procurement agency and they would have full control of the weapon and changes it may need in the future. Colt had submitted 3 entries into that as well. Two were direct gas rifles and the other a piston operated mechanism. Based on my research, all the Colt weapons served well and passed the trials as did the FN. In the end, the FN candidate was selected. The Colt piston system rifle is the ONLY piston driven M4-platform weapon to ever complete an official SOCOM trial, not the HK416. This weapon was not in the competition. As of right now, the M4A1 is the weapon of choice for SOCOM with the exception of Delta who procured the HK 416 on their own. Also based on my research there is a possibility the SCAR program could be cancelled as well.

As for the combat reliability of the HK416 over the M4, well, the M4 has been on the battlefield all over the world for more than a decade and is used by some of the most elite units in the world to include the legendary British SAS who use a Colt Canada made SFW, which is a M4 derivative. Based on my research and discussions with several of the finest engineers in the industry, there has never been any military comparisons between the two systems to determine which is better. More importantly, the criteria set for by the Army for the M4 has been met and the Army has said on record that the M4 has exceeded the government specs by 3 times. The specs and "improvements" of the HK416 are self-made specs that have nothing to do with the Army. For example, the crown jewel hammer forged barrel of the HK416, Colt has offered hammer-forged barrels to the U.S. government for more than a decade since their licensee, Diemaco (now Colt Canada) has manufactured them. The Army told Colt no as they found no evidence it would be an improvement over the current barrels. The stronger bolt of the HK416, Colt proposed to the government a redesign of the M4/M4A1 bolt/barrel extension to cope with the higher impact of constant automatic fire and the U.S. government rebuffed. Colt has offered this technology before, actually all of it. They offered the piston system, the hammer forged barrels, improved life bolt and much more. The Army says they are satisfied with the current production weapons.

The stories you depict in this article from the field are very misleading. First, I have heard many stories from the sand box that are the exact opposite. Troops claim their M16 and M4 work just fine and I have heard some amazing stories of long distant shots taken with M4 carbines. ALL weapons malfunction in that environment if not maintained. There have been complaints surfaced about the M9 pistol, M249 Saw and many other weapons. This sand jams AK's. The soldiers in question, you do not know the condition those weapons were in. How dirty were they? Were they worn out? Did they have defective magazines? The malfunctions described, particularly the failures to extract, are normally caused by corroded or damaged chambers which any weapon would have. Without knowing the circumstances and why the weapons malfunctioned, it is not responsible to claim it is a flaw in the weapon design.

There is something I want to caution you against. During the war in Vietnam the reputation of the M16 far overstated the actual malfunctions. What it did was hurt morale of the troops. It made troops lose confidence in their weapon.. Opinions were formed before they even pulled the trigger. It hurt morale worse than the actual amount of problems. With an article like this, which is basically an H&K sales pitch based on their claims the M4 is flawed, you are doing the same thing to those troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Hurting their morale and confidence in their weapon when the groups that are having the problems abuse the weapon admittedly and use them beyond their design intent. That is dangerous. If you are looking to buy oil for your car and you walk into a store and buy Quaker State and it runs in your Grand Am, perfect. Now a race car driver puts that same oil in his race car and it breaks down and causes engine problems. I ask you, is that oil the problem or maybe that high performance engine needed a different kind of oil to serve its purpose? This is what you are looking at, the difference between SOCOM and the rest of the military.

I am writing you this based on my concerns for the fallout on the troops in combat who will read it and get very misinformed about their equipment and make them feel unjustly that they have substandard equipment when in all actuality they carry the world standard that all modern military rifles are compared. If I did not know better, your story would scare the hell out of me.

If I can be of any help to you in reference to this issue, please feel free to contact me.

Respectfully,
Chris Bartocci

[Hollis]

Thanks Exer, again tech weanies and advertising specialists can make 0.001 inch look like 1,000,000 Miles wide.

[SMGLee]

What? :roll:

The only reason the HK416 has a heavy barrel is becuase it was designed right during the same time SOCOM was having such issues with the standard M4 barrel. It has absolutely nothing to do with the piston system.

That being said, lighter contour barrels are available now as an option. With the lighter barrel the weight compares favorably to any AR and is certianly the equal to any other gas piston AR available.

should i even bother to reply to this??

Do you know why Spec Ops groups were having problem with the M4 profile barrels and why they requested a few of the heavy barrel varients to be made by Colt?

HK has light profile barrel, that is beyond me. every 416 I have seen, shot and finger ****ed with all have the same profile.... heavy. and that has nothing to do with the problem SOCOM was having with the existing M4.

[SMGLee]

Screw the HK, I think when I convert, I'm going POF.

http://www.pof-usa.com/gaspistonuppers/gaspistonuppers.htm

Hey Chen, any personal experience with these? Been doing a little research on them and they seem to be fairly well put together.

POF has a great rep for reliability, but the freaking rail system it has are just plain pain in the ass. If Frank can actually produce the lower profile gas system that fits underneath the Troy rail as he has had a few prototypes showing.. and the extra nickled finish for the interior of the gun are not really necessary but only raises the cost. since the piston dn't really dump any dirt into the interior of the receiver anyow. nice touch but not that necessary in a piston gun. i think he has a champ in his hands, just get me that low profiel system.

currently I am running a LWRC with great success. I have played with a few buffer weight and spring rate to get the recoil to about the same butter smoothness of the HK 416. the LWRC is definitely the way to go for me at this time.

[SMGLee]

To set the record straight:

Does a handfull (Less than ten) of privately purchased (At an extreme discount) truely count as being "In service with U.S. SF"? This sounds like Internet marketing to me. HK has thousands of HK416's in service. LWRC has less than ten, none of which were purchased by the units you reference.

They basically hooked up a tiny few individuals for the photo opportunity and marketing of it.

Hook up, maybe, but those few LWRC that went over seas has been pruchased at the request of those individuals. Those guys don't and won't take crap into combat, since this really isn't an airsoft game. they trust the LWRC system and they used their credit card to make the purchase. did they get a deal in return for some publicity shots? maybe, but why is that a problem?

[Laworkerbee]

every 416 I have seen, shot and finger ****ed with all have the same profile.... heavy.

I hope you washed your hands afterwords :)

[Thor]

3.31 kg (10 inch barrel),
3.5 kg (14.5 inch barrel)

416 is on pair with the G36 and that's not a weapon I consider heavy. If it's poorly balanced, then it's a different story.

[SMGLee]

I hope you washed your hands afterwords :)


Waiting for you to wash it... big boy..

sorry about the typing.. my BAD.

[Laworkerbee]

Waiting for you to wash it... big boy..

sorry about the typing.. my BAD.

Later this week if Stuka can get his **** together, remember we have a new member to haze p-)

[DE_Six]

To set the record straight:

Does a handfull (Less than ten) of privately purchased (At an extreme discount) truely count as being "In service with U.S. SF"? This sounds like Internet marketing to me. HK has thousands of HK416's in service. LWRC has less than ten, none of which were purchased by the units you reference.

They basically hooked up a tiny few individuals for the photo opportunity and marketing of it.

:roll: Dude, you got some chip on your shoulder or what?

Where did I say those custom SBRs where large-scale issue?

My point was SOF uses whatever they please, they don't stick to SCAR, or HK416, or anything else, they get what they want/need, even if it means ordering customized rifles at the lowest unit levels, in small numbers.

And since everyone is having a fit over the piston mechanism of the 416, I thought another piston design warranted some interest.

Jeez.

[mohica]

First I will say, HK blows. The best weapon they ever made was the MP5, I will give them that. It is the best subgun ever made in my opinion. Everything else, someone does at lease equally as good or better for less.

As a footnote to Mr. Bartocci's posts. My cousin ran SOG Recon in Laos and Camboida. They carried CAR15's, the daddy of the M4. He and some of his partners loved the weapon for the mission. To quote a friend and author on page 141 of his book "SOG A Photo History of the Secret Wars" by John L Plaster from a segment titled "The CAR-15 vs. The AK47":

"In Summary: The CAR-15 points more naturally and is faster to get off safety, easier to fire, faster to reload, essentially as reliable, and superior orverall to the AK. For those whose lives depended on it, their almost universal choice of the CAR-15 over the AK tells it all."

I will say that I would prefer the cleanliness of the piston system. My guess is reliabilty would improve a certain degree. Common sense tells us that much. I also don't necessarily think the powers that be always make the best decisions. The "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" crowd have some merit but improvements to a system are often ignored as Mr. Bartocci states in his post. Colt has been there ready to answer the call and will deliver if need be. If you depend on the multiple layers of armed forces bureaucracy and then the civilian bosses, it is a wonder anything ever gets done. Why do you think McNamara wanted to get rid of the old ordnance system? Problem is, the military has a hard time making the decisions, often within budget constraints.

I think a piston system is the way to go and I can't wait until Colt's becomes available. If the Army wanted it, it would be available now. That not being the case (for now), and contrary to what some suppliers are saying, it may be some time until we see the 1020/1033 available on the civilian market I am afraid.

One thing you can be sure of, the military is not gonna make a change to a piston upper during the middle of a war. They tried that type of change once and initially it didn't work out too well.

[Hollis]

My bias against HK is that stupid read tourette sight.. UGGG... Still they make some fine arms. I just wish they would dump that rear sight.

[Exer]

I think HK makes good weaponry but come on.. to say the m16 family is flawed thats just mean when they have taken or borrowed things from the gun which finished product have rather similarities to the m16 family.

[Paulinski]

Why are so many people eager to bash the M16/AR family of weapons. They have been around for a close to half a century with thousands and thousands produced. Sure its not perfect but nothing is. If they were flawed they would be dumped long time ago.

Look at the Chauchat :)

[deagle]

i think the military isn't gonna accept nothing less than a next-gen rifle, hence still fielding somewhat old m4's. xm8 and g36 (closest relative currently fielded) have lots of appealling characteristics to lots of militaries (germany and spain for example) over what USmilitary fields.

[ABNINF]

POF has a great rep for reliability, but the freaking rail system it has are just plain pain in the ass. If Frank can actually produce the lower profile gas system that fits underneath the Troy rail as he has had a few prototypes showing.. and the extra nickled finish for the interior of the gun are not really necessary but only raises the cost. since the piston dn't really dump any dirt into the interior of the receiver anyow. nice touch but not that necessary in a piston gun. i think he has a champ in his hands, just get me that low profiel system.

Here's the one I'm looking at. I just wonder if the standard KAC rail system will fit on it.

http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-415-16-BP-SF-223.htm

[Indiana Jones]

My bias against HK is that stupid read tourette sight.. UGGG... Still they make some fine arms. I just wish they would dump that rear sight.
That rear sight is IMO hands down the best on the market. Combines the short range advantages of the V-notch with the benefits of the diopter for long-distance shooting and is totally foolproof.

[SMGLee]

Here's the one I'm looking at. I just wonder if the standard KAC rail system will fit on it.

http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-415-16-BP-SF-223.htm

I am not sure if you can hollow out enough metal for the piston to fit.

I would be interest to see what happens. Pls let me know what you decided and what you ultimately did. tks

[jagermeister]

im sorry im a die hard M4 fan but HK does make awsome sights

[ABNINF]

I am not sure if you can hollow out enough metal for the piston to fit.

I would be interest to see what happens. Pls let me know what you decided and what you ultimately did. tks

I've got an email in to POF right now to see what they say. I'll keep you updated.

[Kocur]

What rifle in the world deliberately puts gun gas fouling into bolt carrier?
What rifle in the world has gas rings on the bolt, to seal gas chamber and prevent gun gas escaping, thus adding fricion between bolt and bolt carrier?
What rifle in the world has to have a device to counter bolt carrier back bounce in form of 'buffer' with internal movable weights made of costly material?
What rifle in the world is so designed that not entire weight, moving back and forth, of the moving assembly (bolt carrier group + buffer) participates in kinetic energy of said moving assembly in say round stripping and chambering phases?
What rifle in the world has to have a rubber insert in the extractor spring or other peculiar said spring designs?
What rifle in the worlds adds six parts just to make the operator be able to push the moving assembly forward not to mention four parts charging handle?
What rifle in the world requires the most time and attention at every-day maintenance?


If complexity at level not found in other designs, is necessary to make a device, especially a gun work properly is not enough to call the design flawed and obsolete, than say Maxim machine gun never was flawed in any way and never bacame obsolete...

[Hollis]

What rifle in the world deliberately puts gun gas fouling into bolt carrier?
What rifle in the world has gas rings on the bolt, to seal gas chamber and prevent gun gas escaping, thus adding fricion between bolt and bolt carrier?
What rifle in the world has to have a device to counter bolt carrier back bounce in form of 'buffer' with internal movable weights made of costly material?
What rifle in the world is so designed that not entire weight, moving back and forth, of the moving assembly (bolt carrier group + buffer) participates in kinetic energy of said moving assembly in say round stripping and chambering phases?
What rifle in the world has to have a rubber insert in the extractor spring or other peculiar said spring designs?
What rifle in the worlds adds six parts just to make the operator be able to push the moving assembly forward not to mention four parts charging handle?
What rifle in the world requires the most time and attention at every-day maintenance?


If complexity at level not found in other designs, is necessary to make a device, especially a gun work properly is not enough to call the design flawed and obsolete, than say Maxim machine gun never was flawed in any way and never bacame obsolete...


Wait! Wait, I got it, the Daisy Red Rider BB Gun..........


Am I right?

[ABNINF]

I thought he was talking about a Super Soaker;-)

[Laworkerbee]

Maxim machine gun never was flawed in any way and never became obsolete

She might be a heavy bitch but I could not imagine a better piece of equipment with thousands of Tommies coming at you in your bunker or Trench.

[SMGLee]

We all have a point, and one day when we have the phase array ray gun with stun feature build in, some one will find something wrong with it.. there will always be pro and con, black or white. two sides to each story.

M4 for what it is has served United States and its allies with honor and a replacement is indeed the next step. We wait patiently on what will develope down the line. Indeed we live in interesting time.

and why is this thread going ten freaking pages? LOL.....

[Loomisfarms01]

:roll: Dude, you got some chip on your shoulder or what?

Where did I say those custom SBRs where large-scale issue?

My point was SOF uses whatever they please, they don't stick to SCAR, or HK416, or anything else, they get what they want/need, even if it means ordering customized rifles at the lowest unit levels, in small numbers.

And since everyone is having a fit over the piston mechanism of the 416, I thought another piston design warranted some interest.

Jeez.

I'm sorry but your wrong.

Every unit cannot just "Buy Whatever they want". That is completely false. Tier II units like U.S. Army SF, USN NSW, USAF Para Rescue, Etc are part of SOCOM. Hence for the most part they get what SOCOM buys or authorizes. Thats just one reason the LWRC claims are over blown.

Tier I units are a different matter. Hence the reasons they can go out an buy HK416's.

[Loomisfarms01]

should i even bother to reply to this??

Do you know why Spec Ops groups were having problem with the M4 profile barrels and why they requested a few of the heavy barrel varients to be made by Colt?

HK has light profile barrel, that is beyond me. every 416 I have seen, shot and finger ****ed with all have the same profile.... heavy. and that has nothing to do with the problem SOCOM was having with the existing M4.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe I’ve done more than just pick one up at SHOT each year? :roll:

Stop while your ahead- lighter barrel profiles are available or will be VERY soon for the HK416.

Slap a HB on the LWRC and it would be "Heavy" also.

[ABNINF]

I'm sorry but your wrong.

Every unit cannot just "Buy Whatever they want". That is completely false. Tier II units like U.S. Army SF, USN NSW, USAF Para Rescue, Etc are part of SOCOM. Hence for the most part they get what SOCOM buys or authorizes. Thats just one reason the LWRC claims are over blown.

Tier I units are a different matter. Hence the reasons they can go out an buy HK416's.

So, if NSW and SF aren't Tier 1 units, what is a "Tier 1" unit?

*Waits for the OMFG Delta111!!!!!!!*


Did it ever occur to you that maybe I’ve done more than just pick one up at SHOT each year?

Well, since no one here knows what your background is, that's probably a no

[schwarz]

No, dont get this **** going like in the Recon thread....

[SMGLee]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe I’ve done more than just pick one up at SHOT each year? :roll:

Stop while your ahead- lighter barrel profiles are available or will be VERY soon for the HK416.

Slap a HB on the LWRC and it would be "Heavy" also.

ouch...I think i have handled and shot the 416 a lot more then just touching it at the Shot. I have seen and shot the Gen1 416 before then did the raised receiver, so maybe you might also want to stop while you are ahead.

I will admit if i am wrong, but I have not seen the gov't profile barrel as of yet. with the added weight of the regulator and the piston component, i am wondering what kind of accuracy the gov't profile barrelled 416 would be.

wow.. we are now at 11 pages... LOL

[Chops]

Loomisfarms- seriously I've already pinged you for the way over the top aggression in your posts. Take it back a few notches- you're not talking with idiots here. Friendly first, and last, warning.

Chen- why 11 pages? CAG and 416 in the same thread. Airsoft heaven!

[RomanS]

Now lets get the 416 to chamber into 7.62x39, so the operators can work with tons of available Soviet block ammunition in the hot spots. And than lets have ze Germans make an adapter so it can take AK mags as well.

What are the chances of US Comercial release of this interesting piece?

I've been itching to buy a good Black Rifle for a while now.

...no im not selling the AKs

[mohica]

Now lets get the 416 to chamber into 7.62x39, so the operators can work with tons of available Soviet block ammunition in the hot spots. And than lets have ze Germans make an adapter so it can take AK mags as well.

What are the chances of US Comercial release of this interesting piece?

I've been itching to buy a good Black Rifle for a while now.

...no im not selling the AKs

KAC already has made a few M16 types in 7.62x39mm that takes AK mags. Sent some over for testing.

It is very evident to me that some HK brand loyalists are posting here. HK ain't all that and the 416 ain't all that either, execpt for the guys that worship at the alter of Orbendorf. At one time HK had the reputation, not so much any more. You gotta let it go. Oh yeah, the Garand/M14 sights are the best there is and smoke anything HK ever dreamed of.

I have shot the 416. I have shot the LWRC, which I like better. As I stated in previous posts, it runs a close second to Colt and may end up a better idea than anyone's. Colt has a track record with SCAR so I gotta give it the edge. Remains to be seen if and when they are realeased.

[SMGLee]

Chen- why 11 pages? CAG and 416 in the same thread. Airsoft heaven!

LOL.....I am king Airsoft....Everything I own are actually airsoft...yeap.. I said..I am a wannabe.


Now lets get the 416 to chamber into 7.62x39, so the operators can work with tons of available Soviet block ammunition in the hot spots. And than lets have ze Germans make an adapter so it can take AK mags as well.

What are the chances of US Comercial release of this interesting piece?

I've been itching to buy a good Black Rifle for a while now.

...no im not selling the AKs

Roman,

Look into the LWRC. It is a pretty nifty piece of black rifle. just get the heaviest buffer you can get your hands on.

[RomanS]

LOL.....I am king Airsoft....Everything I own are actually airsoft...yeap.. I said..I am a wannabe.



Roman,

Look into the LWRC. It is a pretty nifty piece of black rifle. just get the heaviest buffer you can get your hands on.

Thanks for info guys

Chen, where can look at some of the LWRCs ?

Sorry for offtopic guys. Hopefully this all remains in the same interest.

[GoSka37]

What the hells an LWRC? Google brings me nothing!

[-stk-]

What the hells an LWRC? Google brings me nothing!

http://www.lwrifles.com/

[Laworkerbee]

Roman I suggest you buy that rifle before I get arrive so I can as Chen says "finger**** it" p-)

[SMGLee]

Thanks for info guys

Chen, where can look at some of the LWRCs ?

Sorry for offtopic guys. Hopefully this all remains in the same interest.


In my opinion, this is the closest you can come to a HK 416 as a civilian.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/MISC-028.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/MISC-008.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/huge/MISC-007_1.jpg

[Kocur]

Wait! Wait, I got it, the Daisy Red Rider BB Gun..........
Am I right?

Shame on you! You called AR-15, for I pointed out features of that weapons familiy, a BB Gun! Even I, so critical about M16/M4 action design, wouldnt do that p-)

[mohica]

In my opinion, this is the closest you can come to a HK 416 as a civilian.

SMGLee -

does your comment lend one to believe in your opinion the 416 is superior to the LWRC system? I think the LWRC could possibly end up being the best of the lot. It is the only one that is different than the rest with the cup, lower mass, minimal movement, and metered gas bleed. Your opinion?

[Hollis]

Shame on you! You called AR-15, for I pointed out features of that weapons familiy, a BB Gun! Even I, so critical about M16/M4 action design, wouldnt do that p-)


Psst, don't tell anyone, I have a gas piston AR that is 40 years old.......


BTW, the Bac Biet (NVA) has gas piston rifles, (sks and ak) and would hit us at a ratio of around 18/20 to 1 <--us. Guess what........ Many of them never made it, many of us made it........ so much for gas piston guns... they do not insure anything.

Lethalness is the hands of the shooter, not what is in their hands.

(hint google mutter's ridge, and 1969) The AR has dispatched a lot of bad guys to where ever they go for after life parties.

[Loomisfarms01]

It seems to me that this conversation has been hi-jacked into nothing more than an advertisement.

Sadly this seems to be happening more and more lately and on nearly every forum

Manufacturers have been caught and pounded for it on several forums; now certain companies have resorted to using “Friends” to sell their products on the web. I assume these guys are bought off with free products, discounts, or just the attention they get from posting picture threads (Advertisements).

It’s sad we cannot just have a decent conversation any more but this seems to be the way of the future for companies without a “Brick & Mortar” dealer network.

[GoSka37]

http://www.lwrifles.com/

Thank you very much STK

[SMGLee]

SMGLee -

does your comment lend one to believe in your opinion the 416 is superior to the LWRC system? I think the LWRC could possibly end up being the best of the lot. It is the only one that is different than the rest with the cup, lower mass, minimal movement, and metered gas bleed. Your opinion?

We have had this conversation before. you have your opinion and I have my. I have shot both and I find the 416 a superior product. but as far as a civilian is concern, you can find a better system then the LWRC to spend your money on.

As far as your opinion on the Colt, it might be true, but I just don't think the Colt are any better then the system that is already out on the market even if they carried it through the SCAR program. the 1020 is a great innovative product and I hope it will hit the market one day, but with Colt's lack of interest but to sell military M4, I am wondering if this will ever happen.

so this brings everyone back to the LWRC or the POF. what else do you have as an choice? maybe ARES.

[Laworkerbee]

Loomisfarms01

Are you implying Chen is some gun industry spy here to post "facts" to steer us to certain manufacturers?

HOLLiS

Don't you have a sweet ole AR-180 as well?

[Hollis]

manufacturers?

HOLLiS

Don't you have a sweet ole AR-180 as well?


That is the 40 year old AR, LA..........

[Laworkerbee]

That is the 40 year old AR, LA..........

That rifle never got enough respect in my opinion

[mohica]

We have had this conversation before. you have your opinion and I have my. I have shot both and I find the 416 a superior product. but as far as a civilian is concern, you can find a better system then the LWRC to spend your money on.



Ok. What in your opinion makes the 416 superior? The system or method of operation itself? Matrerials? Workmanship? I am trying to get some opinions from others with experience shooting both and their impressions.


Loomisfarms01
It seems to me that this conversation has been hi-jacked into nothing more than an advertisement.

Sadly this seems to be happening more and more lately and on nearly every forum

Manufacturers have been caught and pounded for it on several forums; now certain companies have resorted to using “Friends” to sell their products on the web. I assume these guys are bought off with free products, discounts, or just the attention they get from posting picture threads (Advertisements).

It’s sad we cannot just have a decent conversation any more but this seems to be the way of the future for companies without a “Brick & Mortar” dealer network.

Dude, that is the pot calling the kettle black. I would imagine you are wearing your HK "staff" shirt right now.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/report.php?p=2335978)

[Mr. JOSHUA]

The POF still hasn't come out with a low profile model?


The thing that most caught my eye was the fact that it does not need to be lubricated, supposedly after 15,000 rounds.

Thats pretty amazing, the other thing that blew me away is that the two different materials on the bolt provide self lubrication which is amazing itself aswell.

I can understand why some would want these to be standard issue for the military and the reasons for why we can't do this right now.

I would like to see other manufacturers jump into this new design and see how things would progress and improve more.

Though legal issues would probably bring it to a halt, if I recall correctly, didn't Colt sue HK over design issues or patents issues?

[Hollis]

The POF still hasn't come out with a low profile model?


The thing that most caught my eye was the fact that it does not need to be lubricated, supposedly after 15,000 rounds.

Thats pretty amazing, the other thing that blew me away is that the two different materials on the bolt provide self lubrication which is amazing itself aswell.

I can understand why some would want these to be standard issue for the military and the reasons for why we can't do this right now.

I would like to see other manufacturers jump into this new design and see how things would progress and improve more.

Though legal issues would probably bring it to a halt, if I recall correctly, didn't Colt sue HK over design issues or patents issues?

As it has already be pointed out, the future standard issue combat rifle will be very nice when it is adopted. Change is something that is guaranteed... the question is, "What will that change be?"

[Mr. JOSHUA]

As it has already be pointed out, the future standard issue combat rifle will be very nice when it is adopted. Change is something that is guaranteed... the question is, "What will that change be?"

Oh yeah, I'm not arguing for the rifle to be adopted, just want more goodies to choose from.

I have no doubt that the next service rifle will be the best of the best, unless bueracracy or lobbyist get a foothold on the program.

I just hope civilians are able to dabble with it too.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Here is reality...the M4/M16 series of rifles are currently in service, and will remain so for the time being, and the reasons are varied. They are that colt has a wonderful relationship with the US Government, and they have a proven design,like it or not is still setting the standards for fire arms to this day. The HK416, altough a fine weapon system in its own right, just does not meet the needs of the US armed forces as a whole. Sure, its a great up grade to the colt design, but for the military to jump right out and buy a couple of million would be impracticle. Especially when they just re-negociated a contract with Colt to purchase further batches of M4/16s.

Now here comes one even better....the 5.56 round. The 5.56 round is the choice of NATO, the US military, and other countries. Great stopping power, decent range, and the soldier can carry lots of rounds into combat...good idea? Yes and no. Yes, it can provide the soldier with the oppertunity to carry enough ammo to cut down on re-supply runs, but on the flipside, the trade off is a somewhat lack of stopping power, requiring more shots.

Now, enter the great debate of 6.8mm, 7.62mm, and 5.56mm, and .45cal, and the magnum and loupa rounds. The HK416 really just does not justify the expense of buying a whole bunch of weapons, especially when the difference between technology does not exist yet to justify devoloping a whole new class of rounds.

So, in a nut shell, here it is. The US military would not really benifit from purchasing the HK416 because it really does not offer that big of differences from the M4/M16 series of weapons. the only advantage would be that the soldier would not have to clean his weapon as much, and maybe just a little more reliability. The colt series of weapons are fine weapons. And, just as with every other piece of equipment the military has, operator maintenance is paramount to successful operation of the weapon systems. And this is the same for the mighty HK416.

[Seraphim]

The POF still hasn't come out with a low profile model?



Though legal issues would probably bring it to a halt, if I recall correctly, didn't Colt sue HK over design issues or patents issues?

Yeah I asked POF about the Troy rail a year ago and nothing yet...

Colt sued HK and Bushmaster over the term M4. HK settled out of court, Bushmaster went to court and won.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Yeah I asked POF about the Troy rail a year ago and nothing yet...

Colt sued HK and Bushmaster over the term M4. HK settled out of court, Bushmaster went to court and won.

Whats the deal with that?

They can't figure out how to make the piston smaller or is it a weight issue?

How bout that, Bushmaster kicks ass on the range and in the courtroom.:-D

Whats next? Will they sue the tons of 1911 manufacturers that are out there too over the term 1911 or have they already?

[mohica]

Whats the deal with that?

They can't figure out how to make the piston smaller or is it a weight issue?

How bout that, Bushmaster kicks ass on the range and in the courtroom.:-D

Whats next? Will they sue the tons of 1911 manufacturers that are out there too over the term 1911 or have they already?

The judge ruled that "M4" was a military designation to the type of weapon therefore Colt couldn't lay claim to it although Colt does have "M4" as a registered trademark. Interesting.

In either case, Colt is the only manufacturer to supply M4 carbines to the US Military.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

The judge ruled that "M4" was a military designation to the type of weapon therefore Colt couldn't lay claim to it although Colt does have "M4" as a registered trademark. Interesting.

In either case, Colt is the only manufacturer to supply M4 carbines to the US Military.

That is interesting, so does the ruling render the trademark void aswell?

To tell you the truth, i'm not suprised by Colts relationship with the gov't, I have yet to hear anything bad about Colts M4's other than the standard griping about having to clean them so often.

[mohica]

That is interesting, so does the ruling render the trademark void aswell?

To tell you the truth, i'm not suprised by Colts relationship with the gov't, I have yet to hear anything bad about Colts M4's other than the standard griping about having to clean them so often.

I am not a legal expert or lawyer, but I think the seperation occurs when Bushmaster is marketing a semi-auto "M4" to the civilian sector. That is why it becomes irrelevant according to the judge because a "true" M4 is a military weapon. I believe that was his reasoning.

If I am not mistaken, Colt does not market a semi-auto M4 to the civilian sector. They sell "tactical" and "LE" carbines that have M4 features and/or parts but are not "true" M4 caribines.

[maw]

Because the HK416 has other refinements beyond just the gas system. For example:

1. Refined locking recesses
2. Free-float return-to-zero quad rail
3. Stronger Buffer spring
4. Cold hammer forged barrel for approximately double the barrel life of the current system

1. not sure about
2. don't see the need for
3. can be bought in aftermarket
4. double the life? i'll take a noveske polygonal.

thanks nice gun and all but from a logistics perspective not compelling enough over the simplicity of the ares gsr.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

I am not a legal expert or lawyer, but I think the seperation occurs when Bushmaster is marketing a semi-auto "M4" to the civilian sector. That is why it becomes irrelevant according to the judge because a "true" M4 is a military weapon. I believe that was his reasoning.

If I am not mistaken, Colt does not market a semi-auto M4 to the civilian sector. They sell "tactical" and "LE" carbines that have M4 features and/or parts but are not "true" M4 caribines.


I have seen some in SHOTGUN NEWS before, but I don't remember which company was selling them, at the top of the advertisement, they have three different models, all LE mind you, going from $1000 and change to $2000 and change, and on the bottom of the ad, they have the civilian versions with three different models, the rifle, the "Patrolmans Carbine" and a standard carbine.

Those three range from $699 - $1000.

I'll try to look for it and post some pics.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Ok, I'm man enough to admit I maybe wrong on this, I know for sure the top three models are Colts because it has the logo right next to them, but the bottom three I think maybe Bushmasters, I don't have the magazine with me, but i'll read up tonight and if I was right the first time, I'll post pics and the website and if i'm wrong, well, at least I was man enough to admit it.

[ABNINF]

I've been corredsponding with POF, and here's their response to my questions.

Are there any mechanical differences between the 415 and 416 uppers?

Will a KAC rail system fit onto the handguards?

Their response:

The P-415 comes with a semi-auto bolt carrier and the P-416 comes with a full-auto bolt carrier. The KAC rail will not fit our upper. The KAC rail system will not clear our gas piston tube

So that answers those questions.

Mr. Joshua,

This is about as low profile a system that POF has:
http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-415-16-BP-SF-223.htm

It looks like Loomis is just pissed because he can't back up any of his arguements, and is losing his internet pi$$ing contest

[Mr. JOSHUA]

I've been corredsponding with POF, and here's their response to my questions.

Are there any mechanical differences between the 415 and 416 uppers?

Will a KAC rail system fit onto the handguards?

Their response:


So that answers those questions.

Mr. Joshua,

This is about as low profile a system that POF has:
http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-415-16-BP-SF-223.htm

It looks like Loomis is just pissed because he can't back up any of his arguements, and is losing his internet pi$$ing contest

ABNINF, those look nice, but full auto? Don't have no 11 or 12 grand for that, or even the $200 for the Class3, but damn they do look nice!

Has anyone bought a civilian version yet?

[Paulinski]

They need to develop a gas piston system that will fit most of the decent rails. LaRue, DD, KAC, etc.

[mohica]

They need to develop a gas piston system that will fit most of the decent rails. LaRue, DD, KAC, etc.


Here it is: http://www.lwrifles.com/

[ABNINF]

ABNINF, those look nice, but full auto? Don't have no 11 or 12 grand for that, or even the $200 for the Class3, but damn they do look nice!

Has anyone bought a civilian version yet?

Well, the reason that I was asking, is because I wanted an Upper that I could use on my Civi M4 and my duty weapon. I have no need (i.e. not enough $$$$$) for a FA weapon. Just need something to have for both my work and play rifles.

[mohica]

FYI - in the lastest edition of SAR magazine, the article about AUSA has a section about Colt Defense. In that article they mention the Colt "M5" which was on display at SHOT this year. As I stated in an earlier post, it is a evolution of the LE1020 with the ulitmate goal of having an improved M4 type carbine in the not too distant future. I know when I saw it I wanted it. When the DoD is ready, it wouldn't suprise me if Colt is the front runner with an updated version of the M4 to carry US forces for many more decades.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Well, the reason that I was asking, is because I wanted an Upper that I could use on my Civi M4 and my duty weapon. I have no need (i.e. not enough $$$$$) for a FA weapon. Just need something to have for both my work and play rifles.

Yea, I have no need for it either. I probably couldn't hit the broadside of a building with a FA weapon, too much bumpety-bump, I'd end up lookin' like one of those cartoons shooting a Thompson every which way but the target.

Do you or Mohica know if civilians are able to purchase Colt uppers?

I checked my SGN magazine last night and sure enough, I was wrong.

The bottom three were Bushies and the top three were Colts, but I noticed on the right hand corner there were Colt uppers, A2's, A3's and gov't models for so-so prices, but, they did not specify LE or gov't only.

I'll admit again, I'm no gun buff, I love guns and respect them and try to learn as much as I can about them and the laws and restrictions that come with them, but I only have so much time on my hands and it can get kinda confusing bouncing from forum to forum hearing this, then that on this forum and so on and so on.

Any info is appreciated.

[Hollis]

Mr Joshua, My understanding, on uppers the only thing that can be full auto component is the bolt. The semi, has a longer cut back for the hammer. The short cut back of the full auto is to "hit the tripping lever to disengage the full auto sear"... The lower is a different ball of wax, it has to be machined to take the additional full auto components. For a semi, it does not matter which bolt that you have.

I don't see why a colt upper would not be available as a non-class three item. Unless it is a Colt thing not to sell uppers.

[ShadowForceRecon]

M4 is good, but the 416 is better. It's more modern and it's made my Heckler und Koch. THey know how to make good quality weapons and the 416 is a great example. BTW-My freind and I are debating how to ****ounce Heckler und Koch. Anyone know if it's ****ounced like "Hecklerun and ****" or "Heckler and Coke"

[ABNINF]

H & K works too

[Seraphim]

M4 is good, but the 416 is better. It's more modern and it's made my Heckler und Koch. THey know how to make good quality weapons and the 416 is a great example. BTW-My freind and I are debating how to ****ounce Heckler und Koch. Anyone know if it's ****ounced like "Hecklerun and ****" or "Heckler and Coke"

rofl...read his other posts. Im guessing 13years old.

[SMGLee]

how to ****ounce H&K correctly for any 13 years old (http://hkpro.com/koch.wav)

[D-gin]

rofl...read his other posts. Im guessing 13years old.

He's on a roll........

[BadKarma26]

rofl...read his other posts. Im guessing 13years old.

Originally Posted by ShadowForceRecon http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2341167#post2341167)
Force Recon is the best. Which is why it's part of my user name. USMCFR is better than the SEALs and Rangers and is pretty freaking close to Delta. Semper Fi! Celer, Silens, Mortalis. If you can't figure out what this means without looking it up then you don't know anything about USMCFR.:-*$ :fork: :bash:

[Exer]

Well.. since hes going all latin and all that, i would probably say he took that quote from the Special forces motto thread.

[Ravage]

Do I see another dumbarse of the year ? (ShadowForceRecon - Jezus only a teen can make this kind of word his user name, what shiet !)

[Seraphim]

Do I see another dumbarse of the year ? (ShadowForceRecon - Jezus only a teen can make this kind of word his user name, what shiet !)

Wait arent you a teenager?

[Laworkerbee]

how to ****ounce H&K correctly for any 13 years old (http://hkpro.com/koch.wav)

rofl

This thread just gets better and better

[Macs.]

Wait arent you a teenager?

Don't you dare to destory his imaginary world.

[digrar]

rofl...read his other posts. Im guessing 13years old.

Close, 15. 1992 a vintage year.

[jagermeister]

lol jees man i wish some one would have told me force recon was the best about 10 years ago. i feel like such an idiot.:roll:

[silveykyle]

he's got to be BTDT.....

[Chops]

rofl

This thread just gets better and better

It's like flypaper for retards... :)

[ABNINF]

It's like flypaper for retards... :)

Maybe these will help:

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4043/flowbk80mu5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7959/stingertrapuv801sfj3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5564/200pxbugzapperla8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[SMGLee]

I keep telling myself not to post on this thread any more.. and it keepsbring me back.. This is so worng in so many ways but i can stay away....

Ok, I am done with this thread.......... seriuosly.. stop posting.......

[Mr. JOSHUA]

I don't see why a colt upper would not be available as a non-class three item. Unless it is a Colt thing not to sell uppers.

Thanks Hollis.

Yea, thats what I was trying to figure out, since some say Colt only deals with the military and LE, I had seen the uppers in SGN magazine, but they didn't specifically say they were LE like the complete carbines on the opposite side of the page.

As for full auto, I am still walking in the dark on that subject, so therefore I don't want to attempt to buy one or the "drop in mechanism" or any other thing that converts from semi to FA. I'd rather play it safe for right now until I am fully aware and have covered all bases.

As it is, I am having to walk a fine line with my AK on what I can put on it and what I have to put on it to keep it legal.

[mohica]

Colt uppers are available from many vendors. The barrel must be 16" or more to not incure an NFA tax and registration as an SBR. Upper receivers will not be marked "LE", only the lower receiver. In any case, anyone can purchase an "LE" marked Colt rifle w/o any problems as long as the barrel is 16" plus. Otherwise, it is as I stated.

Walk a fine line with your AK as to what you can put on it tp keep it legal?

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Colt uppers are available from many vendors. The barrel must be 16" or more to not incure an NFA tax and registration as an SBR. Upper receivers will not be marked "LE", only the lower receiver. In any case, anyone can purchase an "LE" marked Colt rifle w/o any problems as long as the barrel is 16" plus. Otherwise, it is as I stated.

Walk a fine line with your AK as to what you can put on it tp keep it legal?


Well from what I've been reading, muzzle brakes, barrels with no threads, threading the barrels, compliance parts and modifications like lets say on the magazine well, if the magazine is having a tight fit is it legal to clean up burrs or excess metal to have a clean, smooth fit?

If I thread my barrel and install a muzzle brake, do I have to install compliance parts such as the US made trigger and US made pistons?

[mohica]

Well from what I've been reading, muzzle brakes, barrels with no threads, threading the barrels, compliance parts and modifications like lets say on the magazine well, if the magazine is having a tight fit is it legal to clean up burrs or excess metal to have a clean, smooth fit?

If I thread my barrel and install a muzzle brake, do I have to install compliance parts such as the US made trigger and US made pistons?

Dude - don't spend too much time reading the interenet ninja posts. Best to find a good source and follow it. Freely available gov't regs are a good start.

I am not too up on the semi-auto stuff but was under the impression that after the ban sunsetted, it was "Katie bar the door". Someone else can chime in on this one. To be honest, I don't pay too much attention to that crap anyway.

If your mag doesn't fit, whatever it takes in my book to get it right.

[Hollis]

Dude - don't spend too much time reading the interenet ninja posts. Best to find a good source and follow it. Freely available gov't regs are a good start.

I am not too up on the semi-auto stuff but was under the impression that after the ban sunsetted, it was "Katie bar the door". Someone else can chime in on this one. To be honest, I don't pay too much attention to that crap anyway.

If your mag doesn't fit, whatever it takes in my book to get it right.


If you buy a AK in the US from a dealer, it is probably OK. All the compliance stuff is in the making of a AK from non-US made parts.

Barrel length for a rifle is important same with a shot gun. Unless your buying from a private party, I would not worry much. The dealer has more to loose than you. Go to a reputable dealer.

Also some states has funny laws, like the PDRC (people's democratic republic of California) on firearms. IF you buy from a reputable dealer in Cali-land no problem. Most internet dealers will not SHIP to Cali.. any forbidden stuff and anyother weird states like PDRC.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

If you buy a AK in the US from a dealer, it is probably OK. All the compliance stuff is in the making of a AK from non-US made parts.

Barrel length for a rifle is important same with a shot gun. Unless your buying from a private party, I would not worry much. The dealer has more to loose than you. Go to a reputable dealer.

Also some states has funny laws, like the PDRC (people's democratic republic of California) on firearms. IF you buy from a reputable dealer in Cali-land no problem. Most internet dealers will not SHIP to Cali.. any forbidden stuff and anyother weird states like PDRC.


Thanks again Hollis, yeah I bought my AK from dealer here in TX. Its a CAI - WASR 10.

I just wanted to make sure I didn't have any extras on my AK that would give me legal troubles.

[remo williams]

Last yr at the same time the H&K 416 was being talked about S&W came out with a gas pistion armalite as well. It's only available to LE, so far as I 've read. Possible alternative to the H&K?
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=44934&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=33803

[TacoDelRio]

I keep telling myself not to post on this thread any more.. and it keepsbring me back.. This is so worng in so many ways but i can stay away....

Ok, I am done with this thread.......... seriuosly.. stop posting.......

Chen, the HK416 has a heavy barrel because ze Germans wanted to load it for the .300 Remington Ultramag cartridge... get your facts straight, jeez.... woot

BTW that Johnny Walker peeled the skin off the roof of my mouth.

[Laworkerbee]

Chen, the HK416 has a heavy barrel because ze Germans wanted to load it for the .300 Remington Ultramag cartridge... get your facts straight, jeez.... woot

BTW that Johnny Walker peeled the skin off the roof of my mouth.

No, no I was the hotter than hell pizza.

Were Chen and I really that loud that night? StukaJr keeps implying perhaps we were not welcome there anymore but I went last night and remained inconspicuous p-)

[TacoDelRio]

We got some looks.... you just need more alcohol training... ;)

Just keep the volume down next time. ;)

[Laworkerbee]

I blame Chen he is a bad influence on me.....

[TacoDelRio]

I blame Chen he is a bad influence on me.....

Don't worry, we won't let that bad man near you... remember, he doesn't like the classics... Enfields, Mosin Nagants, anything from Big 5... p-)

[Hydro]

he doesn't like the classics... Enfields, Mosin Nagants



Blasphemy!

[Laworkerbee]

I know he rolls his eyes in that get a life way every time I express my love for my Enfields and the .303 in general

[punchinout]

I know he rolls his eyes in that get a life way every time I express my love for my Enfields and the .303 in general

nothin wrong with enfields!!! lol i'm buyin one on my last day at the big fizzle next week.

[TacoDelRio]

nothin wrong with enfields!!! lol i'm buyin one on my last day at the big fizzle next week.

Get one and get out!

Big 5's are ghetto here. Dunno if it's the same for you. The employees always seem to have this look on their faces as if the apocolypse was a day away.

[Laworkerbee]

Get one and get out!

Big 5's are ghetto here. Dunno if it's the same for you. The employees always seem to have this look on their faces as if the apocolypse was a day away.

lol totaly, I asked some cat behind the counter

"are those Indian Enfields"

"No they are British"

"you sure they look Indian?"

"It's a British rifle Sir"

"Ok let me see the third one from the back" "Ok Pal see this marking? it's of Indian manufacture"

"Yeah but it's a British rifle"

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[punchinout]

The Cali stores are HORRIBLE. My region may not be the best, but we do much better when it comes to appearance and most of the time overall knowledge of our products...most of the time. It comes down to the management team and how they teach and run their crew, i know when it came to guns i try to give a lil seminar to all the new employees or anybody who wanted to learn. Yeah i'm leavin that ****!!! one more week, i can't ****in stand it. We have EXPO every other year in california where all our vendors come and display their wears, it seems like all the cali stores their employees look like they came out of a mad max movie or somethin, its kinda funny.

Yea the majority of the Century Arms Enfields we get are Indian, we for a short time got the U.S. Property Savage Enfields.

[Laworkerbee]

The Cali stores are HORRIBLE. My region may not be the best, but we do much better when it comes to appearance and most of the time overall knowledge of our products...most of the time. Yeah i'm leavin that ****!!! one more week, i can't ****in stand it. We have EXPO every other year in california where all our vendors come and display their wears, it seems like all the cali stores their employees look like they came out of a mad max movie or somethin, its kinda funny.

Yea the majority of the Century Arms Enfields we get are Indian, we for a short time got the U.S. Property Savage Enfields.

Which brings me to ask

I found one No.4 Mk2 U.S. Property Savage Enfield for around $229.00 but was too irritated with the lame assed sales clerk to inquire more about it, are these rifles generally of good quality?

[Hollis]

Which brings me to ask

I found one No.4 Mk2 U.S. Property Savage Enfield for around $229.00 but was too irritated with the lame assed sales clerk to inquire more about it, are these rifles generally of good quality?


YES, I have one.

[SMGLee]

Last yr at the same time the H&K 416 was being talked about S&W came out with a gas pistion armalite as well. It's only available to LE, so far as I 've read. Possible alternative to the H&K?
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=44934&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=33803


I can't freaking stay away.....

S&W does not have piston rifle. the rifle you linked to is a normal direct gas operated M4 like everyone else.

I am not bad influence on anyone... you guy drink those Johnny walker on your free will, i only broght them to the table...

Can't wait till next Thursday... I need garlic pizza and Scotch..

[akd]

Which brings me to ask

I found one No.4 Mk2 U.S. Property Savage Enfield for around $229.00 but was too irritated with the lame assed sales clerk to inquire more about it, are these rifles generally of good quality?

They are good rifles, but you could probably get a Savage No.4 for less than $229.00.

[Ravage]

Guys, if the M4 is such a great system so why does SOCOM want to replace it with the SCAR system ?

[SMGLee]

Guys, if the M4 is such a great system so why does SOCOM want to replace it with the SCAR system ?


It was not design to take to the limits that those operators in SOCOM has been pulling with the existing M4. you have various issues that pave the way for the SCAR and being the M4 as the best egronomic system on the market, one of the biggest requirement was to have the same exact control as the M4 on the SCAR.

[Ravage]

I don't understand ? what limits ? I'm no gun expert so treat me like a retard SMG p-)

[silveykyle]

We are real lucky to have SMGLee

[Ravage]

SMGLee for president woot

[Laworkerbee]

I don't understand ? what limits ? I'm no gun expert so treat me like a retard SMG p-)

It would help when asking a question to note that are discussing a "rifle" not a "gun"

akd I hear you man but I'm an Enfield whore not a Savage one p-)

and HOLLiS if you say so thats good enough for me...I'm going to get it.

[mohica]

Last yr at the same time the H&K 416 was being talked about S&W came out with a gas pistion armalite as well. It's only available to LE, so far as I 've read. Possible alternative to the H&K?
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=44934&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=33803

S&W does not have a piston system, it is DI.

[remo williams]

I can't freaking stay away.....

S&W does not have piston rifle. the rifle you linked to is a normal direct gas operated M4 like everyone else.

I am not bad influence on anyone... you guy drink those Johnny walker on your free will, i only broght them to the table...

Can't wait till next Thursday... I need garlic pizza and Scotch..


S&W does not have a piston system, it is DI.

I bet I can get you to post again. Maybe I linked the wrong one, but I could've swore they have a gas piston armalite. I rember reading it in American Rifleman in their ad. I do know they designated it LEO only. Thanks for the heads up.

[Seraphim]

I bet I can get you to post again. Maybe I linked the wrong one, but I could've swore they have a gas piston armalite. I rember reading it in American Rifleman in their ad. I do know they designated it LEO only. Thanks for the heads up.

Armalite is a company.

[remo williams]

Armalite is a company.

I'm retarded. I've heard people refer to the style of rile as oppose to an AK or something else. So it's just what I've referred to the M4 style of rifle. Especially since Colt has the patent on "M4." But yeah I know they're a company.

[Seraphim]

I'm retarded. I've heard people refer to the style of rile as oppose to an AK or something else. So it's just what I've referred to the M4 style of rifle. Especially since Colt has the patent on "M4." But yeah I know they're a company.

Well AR does stand for "AR"malite. p-)

[SMGLee]

I don't understand ? what limits ? I'm no gun expert so treat me like a retard SMG p-)

Limits such as short barrel, suppressed, firing prolong full auto dump, long duration ops that provent the operators from maintinance. those are limits of the weapon systems. even the modern G36 experienced those limits during some testing.

I AM SOFA KING WE TODD DID.


I bet I can get you to post again. Maybe I linked the wrong one, but I could've swore they have a gas piston armalite. I rember reading it in American Rifleman in their ad. I do know they designated it LEO only. Thanks for the heads up.

Armalite as in the rifle company does have a adjustable DI gas gun that allows the shooter to adjust for suppressed or non-supressed.

[remo williams]

Limits such as short barrel, suppressed, firing prolong full auto dump, long duration ops that provent the operators from maintinance. those are limits of the weapon systems. even the modern G36 experienced those limits during some testing.

I AM SOFA KING WE TODD DID.



Armalite as in the rifle company does have a adjustable DI gas gun that allows the shooter to adjust for suppressed or non-supressed.

So if I thought of this gun as a more affordable alternative to the H&K 416 would that be correct? They do look alike except for the sights.

[mohica]

So if I thought of this gun as a more affordable alternative to the H&K 416 would that be correct? They do look alike except for the sights.

For the umpteenth time go here: http://www.lwrifles.com/

IMO, unless colt shows up, this is the way to go. Screw the 416. I wouldn't hold my breath on those either.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

SMGLee for president woot


Will he impose socialist gun laws?

[Hollis]

Will he impose socialist gun laws?


Naw he would make mandatory gun safety classes for all new born, ownership of anything that shoots legal, and Free beer for life.


Oh yes, re-education camps for liberals.