Equip Your Air Force!

[KingoftheHill]

This was a topic on another forum and I thought that some of the forum members here might be interested in a similar topic. Here is the link to the thread on the other forum (the thread there is in a coma at the moment)...

Below is the idea of what your doing:


You are the newly appointed Minister of Defence in the democratic nation of Entelbass (or pick a name of your choosing). Entelbass is a small nation that recently declared its independence from a much larger union of countries. The country is a recent and frail, but popularly supported and functioning democracy.

Entelbass is viewed with suspicion by its neighbours, not only for breaking away from the union, but also for doing so and taking a large part of the wealth of the former union with it. Entelbass borders several larger, but less wealthy countries that currently are not democracies or in an unstable situationo due to the union breakup.

Entelbass is close to being a first world country, enjoying oil and gas supplies near off its coast, some mineral deposits, wood, hydropower and generally a decently developed industry centered around the natural resources found in the country, without major problems ahead.

Entelbass is a peninsula with rather rugged terrain - a mountain chain of low peaks dominates the central parts of the country and while there is broad, open river valleys and marshy deltas at the mouths of the river, the dominating terrain is forested hills or mountains. Infastructure is good although urbanisation is rather low by first-world standards.

There are a lot spread out towns and villages connected by roads and sometimes railroads with small or medium forestry, mountain or industry companies providing the main work place in the town.

Now it is time to build the armed forces of Entelbass, and you have nearly unlimited power - the rest of the government and the parliament will trust your decisions, diplomatics, training, joining defence pacts, acquiring arms, organisation.

So, what do you get? How do your armed forces look?
Later discussions clarify a country with a sizable budget, but nothing like the major spenders (US,Russia,China). We're talking about a military, that when everything is said and done and if money is spent wisely, might approach the level of the Netherlands, Chile, or Malaysia in their regions, for example. It must be considered, however, that all of your military will be from scratch, and will not have the lengthy project funding that some theoretically comparable militaries (Greece or Australia, for example) have been pouring resources into for some time now. Obviously, a lot of loans and freebies would go out to any country in this sort of situation, so a lot of that shortage can be made up that way.

This is an example of what someone did with the money:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/loganov/KAF.jpg

Some market updates:


Sea Harrier deal has been snatched by India, no longer an option.
Second- and third-hand F-5s are hot commodities right now. They're still cheap, but going fast.
Sweden bought too many Gripens, they'll soon be trying to sell them off at an "everything must go" price, so they'll finally be affordable again.
The US is selling off lots of S-3B Vikings with plenty of life in them, but the status of their ASW equipment is still up in the air, so know what you're getting into before committing to anything.
F-22s are now up for export. You can't afford them.
Czech Republic bought too many AERO L-159s. They're being sold at really cheap prices. This is actually a good deal for the plane.
Used Dutch F-16s are all sold, sorry.
Chinooks are a VERY hot commodity. Expect to pay through the nose and wait a while if you want ANY.
Bell Helicopters is proving to be incompetent right now. They'll grow up fast, and soon (they have to or they'll go under), so play with them at your own risk.
The US is offering used F/A-18C/Ds to countries, so that's a nice option to weigh against the F-16.
Russia is marketing combat aircraft very heavily right now, but some aircraft (like Flankers) are doing very well, so they have the advantage right now in the buyer/seller market. Other aircraft, like the MiG-29, are not doing as well, so they are offering far better deals, everything considered.
Upgrades and modifications right now are not cheap. If it's not already on the market, don't expect your requirement for a custom modification/upgrade to be easy to swallow. A lot of companies will line up for the business, but it'll be expensive any way you slice it.
7 S-300s

My Aircraft


Attack Helicopter: Mi-24 ATE Superhind (x24)
Utility Helicopter: Mi-171 of latest version (x36)
Heavy Lift Helicopter: Mi-26 (x6)
Fighter/Bomber: F/A-18 (x16)
Light Attack: Super Tucano ALX (x75)
Trainer: Super Tucano (x20)
Transport: CN-235 (x15) + BT-67 (x10) p-)
Air superiority: F-16 C/D (x34)
Ground Support: IAI Kfir (x8)
Naval Heavy helicopter: Mi-171 (x4)
Naval assault helicopter: SH-60 (x4)
Maritime Patrole: CN-235MPA (x4)
AEWC: Saab 340 (x2)
VIP: Falcon 900

Any criticisms, comments, and questions are welcome :)

Cheers,
Kingofthehill

[Hellfish]

What do our enemies have? What are their capabilities? What is the ADA threat? Do they greatly outnumber us on the ground? How many airfields do we have? What state are they in? What is our ADA situation like? What is our naval threat and our own naval capabilities? Do we need to plan for ASW, ASuW, both?

[KingoftheHill]

What do our enemies have? What are their capabilities? What is the ADA threat? Do they greatly outnumber us on the ground? How many airfields do we have? What state are they in? What is our ADA situation like? What is our naval threat and our own naval capabilities? Do we need to plan for ASW, ASuW, both?
It didn't say...although after seeing your post regarding the Equatorial Guinea coup. We can pool together and come up with the size of the countries?

Just some food for thought....

[AztecMex]

What do our enemies have? What are their capabilities? What is the ADA threat? Do they greatly outnumber us on the ground? How many airfields do we have? What state are they in? What is our ADA situation like? What is our naval threat and our own naval capabilities? Do we need to plan for ASW, ASuW, both?
True before even thinking about Aircraft you need to know how many airfields how large they are and hangers along with AA systems that way u know what u need in the air if you have a very good AA cap u dont need to put everything into intercetors or fighters.

[Hellfish]

Gotta jet. I'll figure something out in a little while. If you want I can create notional threat profiles for our neighbors. I like doing stuff like that. :)

[LaoSexMachine]

What is our mission? ie defensive or 'protecting our natrual intrest abroad'? After that we can go from there.

[Ed the bumbling fool]

Im going the Kiwi way and buying nothing for the airforce the army can pick up some secondhand helicopters from EADA.Then for only a few million i could bribe somebody at CNN and fox to ensure I have reliable western allies and save myself the problem (with a decent army I can also make a half arsed effort to support various coalitions and gain browny points.

[KingoftheHill]

Gotta jet. I'll figure something out in a little while. If you want I can create notional threat profiles for our neighbors. I like doing stuff like that. :)
Ok, do whatever you can.

BTW just use your imagination, imagine an air force with the budget of Malaysia or Chile except with your choice of aircraft.


woot

[Thor]

Off the shelf price is just one of many parameters that goes into the calculation when procuring a new fighter system.


Sweden bought too many Gripens, they'll soon be trying to sell them off at an "everything must go" price, so they'll finally be affordable again.
Not much understanding of the industry here. As I recall it we ordered 204, changed the terms to 160, and later decided on 120. The remaining 40 fighters (plus 16 additional ones) are all re-directed to South Africa, Czech Republic and Hungary. Everything that's exported is new and all domestic A/B are rebuilt into C/D.

[AztecMex]

My Aircraft


Attack Helicopter: Mi-24 ATE Superhind (x24)
Utility Helicopter: Mi-171 of latest version (x36)
Heavy Lift Helicopter: Mi-26 (x6)
Fighter/Bomber: Su-34 (x16)
Light Attack: Super Tucano ALX (x75)
Trainer: Super Tucano (x40)
Transport: CN-235 (x20) + BT-67 (x10) p-)
Air superiority: F-16 C/D (x30)
Ground Support: IAI Kfir (x8)
Naval Heavy helicopter: Mi-171 (x4)
Naval assault helicopter: Lynx (x4)
Maritime Patrole: CN-235MPA (x4)
Tanker: KC-135R (x6)
SIGINT: G-V (x2)


Any criticisms, comments, and questions are welcome :)

Cheers,
Kingofthehill[/quote]
Chile would not have the ability to buy as much as this.Mexico,brazil,(this is just the latin american countrys european countrys have a way better chance.) and Agentina is probly able to get maby a little more then half of this in a certain amount of time if the gov't had full support of this shopping spre.Remember mexico's GDP is 13th in the world and Brazil is 9th.

[KingoftheHill]

Off the shelf price is just one of many parameters that goes into the calculation when procuring a new fighter system.


Not much understanding of the industry here. As I recall it we ordered 204, changed the terms to 160, and later decided on 120. The remaining 40 fighters (plus another 16) are all re-directed to South Africa, Czech Republic and Hungary. Everything that's exported is new and all domestic A/B are rebuilt into C/D.
That was a quote from the other thread.

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger! p-)

[Thor]

Ok, there will be not shooting. p-)

[Ordie]

My Aircraft


Attack Helicopter: Mi-24 ATE Superhind (x24)
Utility Helicopter: Mi-171 of latest version (x36)
Heavy Lift Helicopter: Mi-26 (x6)
Fighter/Bomber: Su-34 (x16)
Light Attack: Super Tucano ALX (x75)
Trainer: Super Tucano (x40)
Transport: CN-235 (x20) + BT-67 (x10) p-)
Air superiority: F-16 C/D (x30)
Ground Support: IAI Kfir (x8)
Naval Heavy helicopter: Mi-171 (x4)
Naval assault helicopter: Lynx (x4)
Maritime Patrole: CN-235MPA (x4)
Tanker: KC-135R (x6)
SIGINT: G-V (x2)


Any criticisms, comments, and questions are welcome :)

Cheers,
Kingofthehill

Logistical and training nightmare.

For better fleet management and cost controls, you might want to consider reducing the fleet type, look for multi-role aircraft, and find common powerplants (i.e PT-6 or T56 Turboprop)

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

What do our enemies have? What are their capabilities? What is the ADA threat? Do they greatly outnumber us on the ground? How many airfields do we have? What state are they in? What is our ADA situation like? What is our naval threat and our own naval capabilities? Do we need to plan for ASW, ASuW, both?


What is our mission? ie defensive or 'protecting our natrual intrest abroad'? After that we can go from there.

As usual these two have hit the nail on the head.

This thread has a lot of potential but a bit more ground work needs to be done in the above areas.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

1st and foremost exactly how much money does this nation have? Equiping a military from scratch is pretty dam expansive. Once you start building up what are the neighbours going to do?

Personally apart from some cheap CAS platforms (Hawk Trainers, Huey's and of course a presidential jet) an airforce would be the last thing on my mind.

Also what has been left over from the split? And with what is left is it usable in a cost effective manner?

Personally I'd screw the fly boys over and pump what I can into the army. As recent events have shown. You can have as much airpower as you want. But if you don't have grunts holding the ground you lose anyway.

[wicked_hind]

Here's what I thought about:

Fighter/Air Superiority:Ex-Royal Saudi AF F-15C/D Eagle (12/6) (up for sale after their Typhoon purchase) surplus French AF Mirage 2000C upgraded to 2000-9 (24), and Rafale (12)

Interdiction/Strike: F-15E/K Strike Eagle (16), F/A-18E Super Hornet (16)

Attack/Attack Helicopters: Su-25 Frogfoot (30), reconditioned MiG-27 Flogger and Su-17M4 Fitter (20/20), ex-US Army AH-1F Cobra (30), ex-Bundeswehr PAH-1 (20)

Maritime Patrol/ASW/AEW: Upgraded ex-US Navy P-3C Orion (8), SH-2G Seasprite (15), and E-2C Hawkeye (3)

Tanker/Transport/Helicopters: C/KC-130J Hercules (5/5), C-27 Spartan (10), KC-767 (5), CH-47D Chinook (12), UH-60M Blackhawk (15), Bell 412 and 427 (15/15)

Training: Super Tucano (10), Cessna 172 (10), Surplus USAF T-38A Talon (10), surplus French AF and Luftwaffe Alpha Jets (10)

[Hellfish]

OK. Here's a quick, hypothetical terrain overview and a basic ORBAT for the two hostile neighbors. It helps me because I'm a visual person. If anyone wants I can flesh out a map a little bit more, showing existing airbases and key terrain if it helps.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3841/overviewwm5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Threat Country: Otacambo

Quick Description of Threat: While sharing no land border with Entelbass, it does contest the oil and gas fields in the shallows seperating the two countries. It also has a controlling position over the Otacambo Straight, which 40% of Entelbass' foreign trade comes through.

There have been some minor disputes over fishing since Entelbass' independence, but nothing like an armed incident thus far. Overall Otacamban posture is hostile, but not aggressive.

Otacambo Air Force:

1st Air Regiment: 24 MiG-21MF (http://www.**********/Bilder/Timisoara02_3.jpg)

2nd Air Regiment: 24 MiG-21MF

3rd Air Regiment: 22 SU-17/20/22 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su-20-10p02.jpg)

4th Air Regiment: 6 Tu-16, 4 Tu-22 with no ASM capability (only iron bombs and sea mines)

5th Air Regiment: 20-24 MiG-23ML (http://www.military.cz/russia/air/mig/Mig_23/images/mig23_3.jpg)

6th Air Regiment: 18 Mi-25 Hind D

7th Air Regiment: 6 AN-12

Otacambo Navy:

Frigates: 2 Krivak-class FFG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krivak_class_frigate

Other: 6 Osa II class PGMs
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Osa-II.html

3-4 minor landing craft capable of sustained amphibious operations. Can only support a small battalion-sized force for any length of time, however.

Submarines: 3 Foxtrot class SS
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Foxtrot.html

Threat Country: Rujilo

Quick Description of Threat: Rujilo is the only Union member sharing a land border with Entelbass. They are also the largest Union member, and following Entelbass, the most prosperous. They own the bulk of the Union's top of the line military equipment, though like the rest of the Union their military is a conscript system and most of the 18-month conscripts are unmotivated, poorly trained and lead.

Rujilo still considers Entelbass to be a part of the Union and has territorial claims on much of its offshore territory. There have been some minor skirmishes offshore and along the land border, usually involving only a dozen or so rounds fired on either side. Rujilo is actively and overtly supporting ethnic Rujilians in Entelbass, and has been accused of sponsoring terror attacks in the Entelbass capital.

Rujilo Air Force

112th Squadron: 18 MiG-29A

115th Squadron: 15 MiG-29A

116th Squadron: 18 MiG-25

118th Squadron: 14 Mirage F-1CR

119th Squadron: 16 Mirage IIIER

120th Squadron: 18 MiG-29C

121st Squadron: 20 MiG-23ML

122nd Squadron: 17 MiG-23ML

125th Squadron: 14 Su-25

126th Squadron: 16 Su-25

511th Squadron: 16 Mi-25D

512th Squadron: 16 Mi-35P

513th Squadron: 24 Mi-8T

514th Squadron: 22 Mi-8T

601st Squadron: 6 IL-76

602nd Squadron: 8 AN-72

603rd Squadron: 6 C-160

604th Squadron: 10 IL-38

Rujilo Navy

Destroyers: 3 Kashin class DDG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashin_class_destroyer

Frigates: 2 Koni class FF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koni_class_frigate

4 Petya class FF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petya_class_frigate

2 Leander class FF (with Exocet)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leander_Class

Other:

2 Nanuchka class PGMs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanuchka_class_corvette

8 Osa II class PGMs

3 Polnocny A class LSTs
8-10 minor landing craft. All told a reinforced battalion could be landed anywhere on Entelbass' coast.

Submarines:

2 Kilo-class SSKs

4 Romeo class SS

3 Foxtrol class SS

Rujilo Army

2 Tank Divisions (Soviet style - 3 tank, 1 BMP regiment).
4 Motor Rifle Divisions (Soviet style, 1 tank, 1 BMP, 2 BTR regiments)
3 Air Assault Brigades (light infantry only)
5 Motor Rifle Brigades (wheeled APCs or trucks)

Tanks: 300 T-72M1, 100 T-90S, 450 T-55A, 120 AMX-30B
IFVs: 500 BMP-1, 200 BMP-2
APCs: 700 BTR-60P/PB, 200 BTR-80, 200 VAB VCI
Artillery: 200 2S1, 50 2S3, 50 M-109. 500+ various towed guns
ADA: 10 SA-2L batteries, 4 SA-3 batteries, 6 SA-5 batteries, ZSU-23-4, SA-9, SA-13, SA-6

[KingoftheHill]

Logistical and training nightmare.

For better fleet management and cost controls, you might want to consider reducing the fleet type, look for multi-role aircraft, and find common powerplants (i.e PT-6 or T56 Turboprop)


Attack Helicopter: Mi-24 ATE Superhind (x24)
Utility Helicopter: Mi-171 of latest version (x36)
Heavy Lift Helicopter: Mi-26 (x6)
Fighter/Bomber: F/A-18 (x16)
Light Attack: Super Tucano ALX (x75)
Trainer: Super Tucano (x40)
Transport: CN-235 (x20) + BT-67 (x10) p-)
Air superiority: F-16 C/D (x30)
Ground Support: IAI Kfir (x8)
Naval Heavy helicopter: Mi-171 (x4)
Naval assault helicopter: SH-60 (x4)
Maritime Patrole: CN-235MPA (x4)
Tanker: KC-135R (x6)
AEWC: Saab 340 (x2)

Fixed, should offer some commanlity now.

[helomech]

Logistical and training nightmare.

For better fleet management and cost controls, you might want to consider reducing the fleet type, look for multi-role aircraft, and find common powerplants (i.e PT-6 or T56 Turboprop)

I agree,your logs' people would have a busy time trying to keep up with all the support aspects,is there a limited budget?If so going the way of Russian aircraft may be the way to go.The PT6 is a great P/P but kind of expensive in initial purchase.

As mentioned earlier,the UH-1H is an excellent choice to start out with for the helo side,then move onto the MI-17-V5 for cargo ops....

[sp2c]

I did something similar a while back but from an army point of view because airforces are expensive.
it was all there including geographical and historical background a defensive plan and an offensive deterrent (you don't really want to fight larger nations) and a political climate :)

can't seem to find it atm but in the end I decided on M113's in all shapes and sizes (from Amtracs to recce to fire support to ifv and everything in between) AMX30b2 mb2's (can't take the enemy headon in a tankfight across open country so you have to use them in a more supporting way and the 20mm coax is awesome :)) all with the new israeli add on armour (the one the Brits are using in Iraq now) and some other stuff but as said ... I can't find it!

[daily666]

Ok since Hellfish pointed at the AF/Army/Navy of Otacambo and Rujilo should we also go beyond the Air Force Equipement for Entelbass and get some naval/army stuff, or we just stick to air warfare?

[zad]

This thread is going Hardcore!!!!! OMG Guinea Ecuatorial Coup!!!!!!!!!!1111111 p-)

I am agree with the opinion of other members about having a good grade of compatibility in the planes to make easier the maintenance and training of crews and mechanics staff, so in my opinion it will be better to buy the less number of different models possible.
So my choices are:

Attack Helicopter: Mi-24 ATE Superhind (x24)
Utility Helicopter: Mi-171 of latest version (x36)
Heavy Lift Helicopter: Mi-26 (x6)
Air Superiority/Multi-Rol: Su-30 (x36)
Ground-Support/Light Attack: Su-25KM (x70)
Trainer: Su-28 (x40)
Transport: C-235 (x20) + Il-76 (x10)
Tanker: IL-78 (x5)
Maritime Patrole: CN-235MPA (x4)

SU-30 are expensive, but you can be sure that your neighbours will not try to engage you with their Migs-29, they assure the air superiority.

Su-25 are a nice groud attack and support aircraft, and having the air superiority they will give a hell of problems to any invasion force.

Su-28 are a downgraded Su-25 trainer version, it will make easier the transition of the pilots to the Su-25, the training of the mechanics staff and make easier in general the maintenance of the planes.

If the whole pack is too much expensive at begining, you have the option of upgrade the planes gradually.

The Il-78 is the tanker version of the Il-76, easier maintenace also.

As the 90% of the equipment is russian, I guess that it will be easier to get a better price/payments options for the whole pack, cheaper spare parts too thanks to the wide number of russian equipement users-manufacturers worldwide.

[daily666]

Ok since we stick to the AF now that's what I'd got in my inventory. I agree it's cost effective to buy as few different types of A/C as possible for maintenance/common armament purposes. I was assuming my nation will be fighting limited offensive war/defensive war:

Aircraft:
AEW&CS + AEW:
3x Embraer R99A with AESA Ericsson ERIEYE Radar
6x EA6BProwler (any left for sale from USN?) w/AGM-88 HARM

Maritime Patrol/ASW:
8x P3C Orion
16x S3B Viking (can be used in limited way in ASuW w/Harpoon)

ASuW/Air Superiority
48x F/A-18C Hornet (AGM-84 Harpoon equipped)

Intercept/Air to Ground/Recce
48x F-16C Block 52 Falcon (JSOW/HARM/HTS equipped)

CAS/Trainer/Light Attack
48x L-159A/B ALCA (AGM-65/Guided Bomb)
40x Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano (AGM-65 equipped), also useful for anti-chopper ops.

Transport
24x C-130J Hercules
18x CASA C-295

Helicopters:
CAS/Anti-tank
36x Denel Rooivalk
36x W-3K Huzar - armed version with Mokopa guided AT rockets (same as Rooivalk), modification of Kentron (Denel) company of South Africa

Transport
48x Mil Mi-171 H

ASW
12x modified Mi-14PS w/Eurotorp

[perdurabo]

good GOD Mi-171 as utility? 26 as heavy? 5 tankers? 20 CASA?? guys are you out of reality?? EVEN If they had the money why small country would need FIVE tankers?? they are not going to fly around globe and hit china.

small country will rather have 1 up to 3 air bases that could support larger aircrafts and it will be rather military-civilian than fully military, rest rather grass strips for helos and small turbo-props.
So they need
for defending bases and main cities
S-300 PMU-1/2 for long range
BUK-1M for mid range
Tunguska
Or if they have better contacts with west:
Patriot or MEADS
NAMSAS
Loara

for ground troops air cover:
Poprad
grom manpads
ZUR-23-2KG
witch is realy great cause you have, good radar, good short range rockets etc, connected into AA digital network - Malesia is going to get it

planes:
in small country you don't need big transports
VIP transport- 1-2 Falcon 500EX, Bombardier GlobalExpress or some other long range bizjet definetly not some BBJ or ACJ
10-16 An-28/M-28 -small transport and you do not need large airstrips, just few meters of gras
other good thing that basing on M-28 you can have MPA - Bryza - you still need something to kill as bryza dosen't have any weponary only radars, sonars etc...
of course you can go other route and buy MPA based on Beriev Be-200 - you don't need airstrips just some water and as we see on map they have enough water.
sometimes there is a need for bigger transport tough 2-4 C-27J would be good, as it has good cargohold and is still small, maybe with 1-2 C-130 but i don't see any need for such large transport (not to mention Il-78)
helos
24 Mi-8 in nevest version for heavy transport (Mi-26 is too big, imagine C-130 with rotor) -and Mi14 for martime sar and sub hunting
16 Mi24 - because they can be great support for irregular warfare, altough they are big cow's and can be easly downed by man-pads
30-40 UH-1 for utility tasks -they can be bought in larger numbers from AMARC, are cheap and reliable
Embraer Tucano as trainer and small CAS
LIFT with CAS planes 24-36 L-159/Yak-130/Hawk (operating Su-25 as trainer is bad idea, even Russians use L-39 and Yak-130 in this task, having dedicated CAS for small nation is also bad idea)
16-36 Rafale/ Su30MKI/ F-16C/D /Grippen -i prefer Su-30MKI
ericson erieye on same plane as vip transport as AWACS -altough it isn't needed as there will be good ground radar net.
Remeber guys that even if they have oil you don't want your peaple to starve, so you can't spend whole budget on airforce!

[exarmyguard]

Im going the Kiwi way and buying nothing for the airforce the army can pick up some secondhand helicopters from EADA.Then for only a few million i could bribe somebody at CNN and fox to ensure I have reliable western allies and save myself the problem (with a decent army I can also make a half arsed effort to support various coalitions and gain browny points.

I admire your honesty....

[daily666]

Hey perdurabo I think my A/F is very reasonable mate. Most of the stuff is used or cheaper versions of mainstream products. No ground units so far ziomal :)

[zulu261]

Would join the war on terror, explain that my neighbours are commies and wait for uncle sam.

After two years or something I would receive some cheap F-15, F-16 and some other stuff from the Tucson graveyard. :D

[exarmyguard]

How about re-equipping an existing air force that is in desperate need of newer stuff. Like Argentina. They have ancient Mirage aircraft, upgraded A-4's and other older stuff. If you consider their bad economic state, that would limit your wish list as far as sophisticated warplanes go. If you consider their lack of enemies, that would dictate the type of planes.

Therefore, a large country with no real enemies that would want, at the very least to control their airspace given a limited budget. I would choose any aircraft that could be used to cover long distances and provide a credible defense. Mirage 2000's with all the support equipment sold second-hand by the French.

[perdurabo]

Hey perdurabo I think my A/F is very reasonable mate. Most of the stuff is used or cheaper versions of mainstream products. No ground units so far ziomal :)
96 modern or very modern fighters, 42 modern transport planes, that would eat budget of meany european countries let alone small oil republic -UK bought 25 C-130J/J-30. Also what they would do with 24 Hercules? evacuate whole nation? you need fleet of small cargo planes that can go everywhere, you won't be doing any big air assaults with paras and stuff.
BTW price tag for one C-130J is: $68 million, now times 24 and we have 1 632 000 000, for bare airplanes, still you have to buy meintance, build hangars, pay for crew, and ground crew training just to have cargo fleet in size of UK one p-)
sorry it isnt 68 but 88 000 000 for a plane, and US wants to drop price to 66 000 000

[KingoftheHill]

good GOD Mi-171 as utility? 26 as heavy? 5 tankers? 20 CASA?? guys are you out of reality?? EVEN If they had the money why small country would need FIVE tankers?? they are not going to fly around globe and hit china.


Ok, maybe I was procastinating with the KC-135R. After this is just something to mess around with, it's not like we are issuing a RFP to the RMAF.

I chose CN-235s because they are cheap and get the job done.

Cheers p-)

[perdurabo]

King, ok, but 20 is big number, look at the size of this country, for egzample much more bigger and ritch south korea has exactly same number of CN-235s, what would small country do with such fleet of planes? :)

[sp2c]

yeah but what job?
is it a needed job?

if you're going to fight a defensive fight you are not going to need transport aircraft, you can't really use them for resupply because that's putting way too much eggs in one basket (made of gold!) so unless you plan on air assaulting something across this otocombo straight I'd say the money is better spent on other items.

like ground based air defences (im dutch, I consider it an airforce task ;))

[jerka71_1]

Don´t worry what to buy. Start to figure out how to get people the training they need. When that is done a "few" years later you might consider getting your own gear.

Until then get some allies to fly for you!! p-)

[KingoftheHill]

King, ok, but 20 is big number, look at the size of this country, for egzample much more bigger and ritch south korea has exactly same number of CN-235s, what would small country do with such fleet of planes? :)
Keep in mind though, that at first this was just imaginary.

Just equip your own air force with a budget similar to the aforementioned countries.

Only one person did what I had in mind, but that is ok.


p-)

[Lazarou]

I would contact Rosoboronexport, bribe their salesmen with vodka, and empty their stocks with my oil and drug money. Problem solved.

[Midav]

One F-14A Tomcat. Tom Cruise is the pilot.

'nuff said.

[perdurabo]

Keep in mind though, that at first this was just imaginary.

Just equip your own air force with a budget similar to the aforementioned countries.

Only one person did what I had in mind, but that is ok.


p-)
you know imaginary can be realistic or fictional.
Second way just take what you would like, but first option with aditional info put by ngati could be quite good thing to streach your mind.
You need to think about tasks, targets, posible opponents, your budget, whole situation, just like with MP.net Coup. It can be very demanding, more like strategic game, than wish list.

[Ghelp]

Ok go easy on me guys.

84 Super Tucano's.14 for training purposes.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_AT-27_Super_Tucano_lg.jpg

26 of the latest Mi-17V1's
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/helicopters/mi-17-1v-01.jpg
http://www.mosnews.com/files/13780/mi17.jpg

18 Rafales for Air superiority
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/rafale.jpg

59 used Huey's
http://www.aircraft.co.za/GalleryImages/675/normal_UH-1D.JPG

10 Cn-235's
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/cn235-26_24_G_gal_fotos_cn235.jpg

30 T-50's for training and attack.
http://www.angkasa-online.com/13/12/notam/NOTAM01.jpg

75 F-4's from S.Korean/Japanese/US stocks used.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-4-7d.jpg

[Midav]

A decent mix of F-22's, SU-34's, A-10's, KA-50's, F/A-18G's, UH-60's and MV-22's comes to mind atm :)

[Elemental666]

One F-14A Tomcat. Tom Cruise is the pilot.

'nuff said.

PT will approve this message.

[daily666]

96 modern or very modern fighters, 42 modern transport planes, that would eat budget of meany european countries let alone small oil republic -UK bought 25 C-130J/J-30. Also what they would do with 24 Hercules? evacuate whole nation? you need fleet of small cargo planes that can go everywhere, you won't be doing any big air assaults with paras and stuff.
BTW price tag for one C-130J is: $68 million, now times 24 and we have 1 632 000 000, for bare airplanes, still you have to buy meintance, build hangars, pay for crew, and ground crew training just to have cargo fleet in size of UK one p-)
sorry it isnt 68 but 88 000 000 for a plane, and US wants to drop price to 66 000 000

If we can afford 48 F-16s they can afford another 48 used F/A-18Cs Hornets for maritime (ASuW) ops. Just look at the navy of their friends.

Well I was thinking about used C-130s. It's maybe a small nation, but I based my AF on Singapore which also is a small in terms of area but very rich and has the most important strait in the world to defend (and survive). Singapore AF has 62 F-16Cs of latest versions and 45 modded F-5 Tigers and are getting 12 more F-15SGs (an F-15E version). So, the transport A/C issue is maybe a bit overstreched

[sp2c]

yeah but Singapore didn't have to buy it's airforce overnight

[daily666]

yeah but Singapore didn't have to buy it's airforce overnight

Well it's all fiction, I think nobody ever bought it's all airforce overnight mate ;)

[sp2c]

true enough (well Eritrea did technically) :)

but think of the money man, think of the money!!!
it's not just the aircraft, it's the whole infrastructure and personnel from pilots to guys in space suits that scoop bird guts out of the engines!

you're going to have to sell your soul (not to mention all your oil) to afford it

[exarmyguard]

Well it's all fiction, I think nobody ever bought it's all airforce overnight mate ;)

I thought the Saudi's did....or at least they could.

[sp2c]

the saudi's are filty rich, that doesn't count ;)

and from what I hear, they can now just about change the tires on the vehicles that bring the crews to the aircraft ;)

[KingoftheHill]

:)
Ok go easy on me guys.

84 Super Tucano's.14 for training purposes.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_AT-27_Super_Tucano_lg.jpg

26 of the latest Mi-17V1's
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/helicopters/mi-17-1v-01.jpg
http://www.mosnews.com/files/13780/mi17.jpg

18 Rafales for Air superiority
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/rafale.jpg

59 used Huey's
http://www.aircraft.co.za/GalleryImages/675/normal_UH-1D.JPG

10 Cn-235's
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/cn235-26_24_G_gal_fotos_cn235.jpg

30 T-50's for training and attack.
http://www.angkasa-online.com/13/12/notam/NOTAM01.jpg

75 F-4's from S.Korean/Japanese/US stocks used.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-4-7d.jpg

Not bad, very simple. I see we both have a thing for the Super Tucano? p-)

Except my F-16s only cost 30 mil a piece :)

[sp2c]

the F4's isn't really an all that bad idea now that I think about it!

it's a manly aircraft!
you can't break it, and if you manage it won't tell you ;)

only problem I see with it is that they come from so many widely different (politically) sources

still I'm too drunk to think of anything that makes sense so I'll do it tomorrow
for now I'd shop @ Saab

saab 105 for ground attack (A10'ish role)
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/img/saab/saab_105oe.jpg

and Viggen for multirole strike aircraft, these are affordable and capable (dead sexy) aircraft from a neutral source

[daily666]

It's funny thing we're doing here. I'ts like looking at discounts in supermarkets which has also used stuff :)


"And gimmie some more A-10s please just add few old F-4s free, and we're done here"

[sp2c]

whehehe :D

the military coup was a bit worse (but more entertaining ;)) though :D

still the F4 was a good call, im sticking with it

[Ghelp]

:)

Not bad, very simple. I see we both have a thing for the Super Tucano? p-)

Except my F-16s only cost 30 mil a piece :)

Thanks.The Super Tucano's I chose because they are easy to operate from rugged airfields in the field and can pack a punch and a valuable tool for training new pilots in any aircraft they are destined to fly.

http://unffmm.com/Galerias/Fac/A29%20supertucano/tuc18.jpg

http://unffmm.com/Galerias/Fac/A29%20supertucano/tuc48.jpg

http://unffmm.com/Galerias/Fac/A29%20supertucano/tuc10.jpg

[Ghelp]

whehehe :D

the military coup was a bit worse (but more entertaining ;)) though :D

still the F4 was a good call, im sticking with it

We can train together then.Phantoms unite!

[KingoftheHill]

Thanks.The Super Tucano's I chose because they are easy to operate from rugged airfields in the field and can pack a punch and a valuable tool for training new pilots in any aircraft they are destined to fly.

http://unffmm.com/Galerias/Fac/A29%20supertucano/tuc18.jpg

http://unffmm.com/Galerias/Fac/A29%20supertucano/tuc48.jpg

http://unffmm.com/Galerias/Fac/A29%20supertucano/tuc10.jpg
We can train each other's Tucano's pilots and conduct ALX excersises over the bay! ;)

[Midav]

PT will approve this message.

lol PT aka Iceman knows Tom is dangerous.

[Ghelp]

We can train each other's Tucano's pilots and conduct ALX excersises over the bay! ;)

Set up some maritime targets and let the Super Tucano's go at it WW2 style :)

[KingoftheHill]

Set up some maritime targets and let the Super Tucano's go at it WW2 style :)
Haha

And then swap CN-235s!

Yay! woot

[daily666]

I wouldn't like to go WWII style in a Tucano against an AK-630 equipped ship.

[Ghelp]

I wouldn't like to go WWII style in a Tucano against an AK-630 equipped ship.

Fly in very low.Plus the Super Tucano's can be armed with stand off weapons.But yeah it would be a suicide mission.

[foxtrot023]

one thing countries use is dual role trainers- Per example the F5, or the F4 do great in advanced trainer roles, and can be used in a pinch for Air to Ground platforms. Al least that is what Spain did. Also in the future there will be the Mako- Eurofighter combo

[KingoftheHill]

one thing countries use is dual role trainers- Per example the F5, or the F4 do great in advanced trainer roles, and can be used in a pinch for Air to Ground platforms. Al least that is what Spain did. Also in the future there will be the Mako- Eurofighter combo
That is very true.

[wicked_hind]

one thing countries use is dual role trainers- Per example the F5, or the F4 do great in advanced trainer roles, and can be used in a pinch for Air to Ground platforms. Al least that is what Spain did. Also in the future there will be the Mako- Eurofighter combo

Don't forget the Yak-130-great training platform but can provide a ground attack punch like the larger Su-25.

[KingoftheHill]

Don't forget the Yak-130-great training platform but can provide a ground attack punch like the larger Su-25.

x2 for the Hawk and L-159.

[wicked_hind]

Well, I thought it over and this is what I think would be a good mix, keeping logistics in mind and engine parts commonality as much as possible

Fighters
F-15C/D Eagle (ex Royal Saudi AF): 15 "C" plus 5 "D" aircraft- updates to APG-63 radar (APG-63 V2) and given AIM-9X capability coupled with JHMCS

F-16 ADF Fighting Falcon (ex U.S. ANG): 18 ADF aircraft- airframes overhauled back to zero hours and upgraded to MLU standard plus AIM-7 Sparrow capability retained. Weapons loadout consists of 2 AIM-7M and 4 AIM-9M * 8 kept on QRA and are fully armed for immediate scramble

Interdiction/Strike/Attack (includes attack helicopters)

F-16C/D Block 52 Fighting Falcon: 12 "C" plus 6 "D" aircraft

F/A-18A+ Hornet: 12 "A+" plus 6 "B" aircraft -ex USN/USMC Reserve aircraft * negotiating purchase of 4 additional A+ aircraft

AH-1F Cobra: 30 aircraft-ex US Army Reserve helicopters. Airframes and engines overhauled and zeroed out, NVG compatible cockpits, new FADEC system, composite rotor blades. * negotiating purchase of 10 additional airframes from Israel

Super Tucano: 30 aircraft-used in FAC role as well as light attack

Transport/Tanker/Helicopters:

C/KC-130H Hercules: 20 aircraft including 5 KC-130 versions- ex USAF/USMC aircraft. Airframes overhauled and zeroed out, cockpits upgraded with Boeing's AMP cockpit upgrade (uses avionics from 737 Next Generation airliner)

An-32 Cline: 20 aircraft

UH-1H Iroquois: 50 aircraft-ex US Army aircraft. All are to be updated to Huey II standard. Also used for advanced rotary wing training

UH-60M Blackhawk: 12 aircraft *4 additional aircraft on order

CH-47D Chinook: 12 aircraft

EH-101: 10 aircraft

Maritime Patrol/ASW/AEW:

P-3C Orion: 8 aircraft

SH-2G Seasprite: 12 aircraft- capable of firing AGM-65F/G Maverick

AS-565 Dauphin: 12 aircraft- capale of firing AS.15 anti-ship missile

EMB-145 AEW&C/RS: 2 "AEW&C" plus 2 "RS" aircraft

Training

Alpha Jet: 24 aircraft- ex Luftwaffe aircraft and can also be used as light attack aircraft using BL-755, rockets, AGM-65 Maverick, and conventional bombs.

PC-9: 16 aircraft

T-38C Talon: 12 aircraft-ex USAF updated from T-38A airframes

Schweizer 300: 20 aircraft-used for beginning/intermediate level rotary wing training

Schweizer 333: 15 aircraft-used for advanced level rotary wing training

King Air B-200: 6 aircraft-used for advanced level multi-engine aircraft training

King Air C-90: 6 aircraft-used for intermediate level multi-engine aircraft training

VIP/Presidential Fleet:

Gulfstream IV SP: 2 aircraft

Airbus A-330: 2 aircraft

Sikorsky S-92: 4 aircraft

King Air 350: 3 aircraft

Boeing 777-200ER: 1 aircraft

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Obviously a fair amount of suspended disbelief at work here. IE, budget, starting an Air force from scratch, etc.



Air Superiority

Su-30MKI
F-16C Block 30
F-5E Tiger II

Ground attack

GR.3A Jaguar
Su-39
FMA IA 58 Pucará (FAC/COIN/anti-helicopter)

Support

Transport
C-130J
CN-235

Maritime patrol/Strike
CN-235-100 MPA
S-3B Viking

AEW/ELINT
E-2C Hawkeye

Tanker
KC-130J

Training
Hawk (secondary roles light attack/point air defence)
Super Tucano(secondary roles attack/point air defence)

Rotary

Attack
Mi-25/35
MD-500MD/TOW Defender

Scout
MD-500MD/Scout Defender


Transport
MI-17
AS 532 Cougar Mk II U2 A2
MD-500MG

Maritime
SH-2G

Training
MD-500MG

Basically it's a mix of western and eastern with an emphasis on types in wide spread usage with multiple sources of maintenance and spares support other than the original country/manufacturer.

Other than the C-130J, SU-30MKI and SU-39 the airframes are second hand refurbished.

I'll figure out numbers/weapon fits later.

[Lefty]

Really interesting post, might be fun to have people actually try to find this stuff on the market, post links, fill out support costs. Ok, I'm obviously bored.

I'd love 800 some planes but that really isn't a reality, but on the bright side my neighboors seem to like the Com-bloc stuff, and MiG-21s although great fighters in their day and one of my favorites, don't really hold up anymore against new rivals. So I guess I'm faced with qaulity versus quantity, and oil rich nation with a somewhat stable political situation is in a good posistion to bargin with nations that face oil shortages (thank you middle east and Chavez, love from Entelbass!).

Strategy:

Entalbass is likely a tropical state judging by the google earth pictures, and a nation such as mine with 2 or 3 military capable airfields isn't going to have a lot of storage space and will require huge costs to keep the aircraft in shape. So durability comes first, even before performance perhaps in some cases. Also, my chief concern is not neccesarily keeping my borders soveirgn, but protecting my oil assets off the coast, the mountains and jungles of my country will hopefully keep a massive invasion at bay long enough. My main concern on the land is insurgencies and gurriella movements, which will require a capable air/ground platform, and helicopters of all sorts.

Shopping List:

F/A-18C/B/D (x10): A good compromise between pretty much everything else on the market, it was made for carrier operations, so its requirements aren't that dissimilar to my own. My Oil reserves can hopefully secure a sweet deal with the USA, maitenence help maybe, only con is the airframes are old and have a lot of hours on them. Pilot training can hopefully be conducted in the US saving me the cost of trainers for a few years and complete refurbishment of all airframes.

Fokker F-27 series(x15): With a range of almost 3000km, this beats the An-26 in range and allows the purchase of a large transport to be postponed somewhat. Refurbished from ex-dutch military and civilian sales.

C-130 (x2): I'll need a good large transport, but don't need to break the bank. The C-130 and An-12 are both rugged machines that are widely availible cheaply throughout the world, buying two so that there is always a standby aircraft in case something goes wrong. Buy ex-USAF refurbished.

P-3C Orion (x2): The enemy has some submarines, great! I originally was going to suggest screwing the ASW thing and going for broke, but a need for a naval presense in my oil areas will beckon the need for an increased ASW footprint, better start kissing up to the US and bending over, I think these sound expensive. A backup option if the Fokkers are availible, is that ASW equipment could be fitted to them, costing more initially, but lowering operation costs.

Mi-171/172 (x25 asap): possibly the one item I would have produced specifically for my air force, the Mi-171 represents the best of the Mi-17 series. These would see a lot of use for everything from medivac to recon, so getting new airframes would be a good thing for accidents and maitnence. Can be purchased easily as civilian machines or through a third party if Russia hates me for buying western fighters. Purchased directly from Mil with gunship capabilities to be added if purchased through a third party.

Pilatus PC-6 Turbo-Trainer (x10): Teach fighter tactics, advanced training etc., plus FAC and COIN.

ATG Javelin (x6): for introduction to jet flight, allows smoother transition to the F-18 trainer, not availible for a few years, so i'll use the US to train until then (love that oil)

Cessna 335 (x4): Training for twins...

Airbus A321 (x1): VIP Long-Distance transport, all local transport will be undertaken in already availible military aircraft to decrease cost.

Dream Machines (if I have cash left):
Mil Mi-35x12
Mil Mi-26x2
Dassult Falcon 50x4

So the tab comes to:
10xF/A-18C/D
10xFokker F-27
2xC-130
2xP3C Orion
20xMi-171
6xPC-9 Turbo-Trainer
4X ATG Javelin
4xCessna 335
1xAirbus A321

So 72 airframes over a few years, not horrific, the biggest problems would prbably be maintaining it all...

[Ordie]

The scenario looks like when Singapore split from Malaysia in the mid 1960's.

For me the ideal air force is one with the right balance of tactical, survelliance and logistical aircraft with minimal types.

Combat Aircraft
IAI Kifir C.10: 12
KAI F/A-50: 16
KAI KO-1: 20

Special Mission
EMB-170 AEW/ISTAR (ERIEYE) : 2
EMB-170 MPA/ASW: 4
C-212 MPA/SAR: 4

Transport
C/KC-130H: 4/2
C-235: 8
C-212-300: 10
Cessna Caravan: 10
EMB 190: 2 (VIP)

Helicopters:
AS 532 UL/AL Cougar (Assault/Transport) 16
AS 565 UA/UB Panther (Attack/Utility): 24
AS 565 MA/MB Panther (Naval Attack): 6
AS 555 Fennec (Naval Liason/SAR):4
AS 550U2 Fennec (Liason/Attack): 20

Training
SF-260 (Basic Trainer/COIN): 20
KT-1 (Adv. Trainer): 12
T-50 (Lead in Fighter Trainer): 6
C-212-300 (Multi- engine Trainer): 4
AS 550U2 (Helo-Trainer): 6

National Airline
(to keep the pilots busy,earn hours and offset operations costs)

Airbus A-310 (Cargo): 2
Airbus A-320 (Trunk Routes): 6
EMB 190 (Regional Routes): 4
C-235 (Essential air service):2 note: mlitary aircraft can supplement civilian routes

[jerka71_1]

and Viggen for multirole strike aircraft, these are affordable and capable (dead sexy) aircraft from a neutral source

To late...

[Ivo]

What about weaponary for these aircraft? Can you use US/Euro weapons with a Soviet/Russian aircraft vis versa? If not what can you use?

[perdurabo]

you can't, this means if you have su30mki and f-16 in one storage you have to have difrent wepon sets for both, while having MiG29 instead 16 you can have smaller storage and share som weapons -altough you still need wartime reserves for every ac you have. I realy like Lefty post it goes well with small nation.

[daily666]

Exactly, so that's why when building your AF from scratch, you don't go for a US/Wester - Russian combo especially in A/Cs. Especially the weapon systems and stations are incompatible.

Perdurabo, we can't have an AF as small as Lefty's while looking at the forces of Entelbass neighbours.

[perdurabo]

you do not need to match their numbers, what you need is ability to do your tasks and prevent enemy from doing theirs, so with good AA you will do second part and having less but better planes will alow you to do first.

[daily666]

you do not need to match their numbers, what you need is ability to do your tasks and prevent enemy from doing theirs, so with good AA you will do second part and having less but better planes will alow you to do first.

But as far as I see it we don't choose air defence systems. In that case you're right with good AA systems you'd get get rid of some of the AF, but you must remember about that damned strait. As a merchant route it can be defended only with Navy/Aircraft combo. So having 10 Hornets for performing CAP duties as well as securing the searoute is not enough for sure.

[perdurabo]

thats why i was thinking about more like 24 rafale/su30, AA is part of the AF :) i would add navy and army to this planing also, maybe ngati can came up with some data like budget, cities, population etc??

[daily666]

thats why i was thinking about more like 24 rafale/su30, AA is part of the AF :) i would add navy and army to this planing also, maybe ngati can came up with some data like budget, cities, population etc??

And area of operations...

[ren0312]

To make things more realistic, let us just say that a 9 billion US dollar military budget will run up to 6 per cent of GDP, so let as just assume that Entelbass has this budget for this year, per capita GNI is at 8700 US dollars, with a population of 1.7 million. So the budget for the air force is at about 3.2 billion US dollars, with these parameters, what can you buy for your armed forces?

[perdurabo]

3,2 bilion in witch you have to pay for soldiers, training, infrastructure, meintance and loots of other things, thats tight budget, but quite good.

[Lefty]

Daily, I was assuming that I would actually have to maintain a suitable budget in my country, no use having a giant air force if your own people are ready to overthrow you, whihc is what happens if you overextend a budget and people don't see improvement in their lives, whihc is what would happen if I bought 96 Eurofighters and 50 F22s. I'm looking at durable aircraft that can effectivly serve as a detterant to my neighboors while I secure funds to increase my defense budget. no country except afermentioned Eritrea and maybe Isreal have purchased their air forces overnight, and Isreal did pretty well with their out of date Avia's.

I'm also assuming that my F/A-18 pilots will be well trained, having recieved training in the USA. While, the MiG-29 pilots of Rujilo may or may not be recieving training from the FSU, I can almost garuntee my F-18s can match the MiG-21s of Octamboco in the numbers they will likely see, outclassing them in pretty much everything but basic range. My small airforce may not be able to match my neighboors plane for plane, but if used effectivly, well cared for (not likely with my neighboors), protected in pricey aircraft shelters, and supported by an effective SAM and Rader net, then I would actually argue I stand a better chance in the long run than some of the 300-500 aircraft Gen 5 air forces presented, who would not only not have enough cash for maitenence, need a variety of Weapons and meechanics, and would likely be too hindered by too many advanced aircraft upon such a small and new fighting force such as my own.

I'm looking at SAM sites right now, I haven't figured out if FSU systems would clash with my Western Air Force's style, but they appear the best bang for the buck followed by maybe ex-Saudi Hawk systems. Egypt employs a variety of old school FSU SAMs along with US Hawks, and older US aircraft with FSU aircraft, so I don't think interconnectivity of computers is a big thing. Alos considering cancelling my Pilatus and Cessna orders in favor of Embrear, which is pricier, but share common systems

Finally, the Octambo strait dopes not appear to be within my airspace, so there is no use defending it militarily, but rather securing diplomatic entry through. My Oil Fields would be closer in (200 miles at the most in accordance with international sea law) and very defensable by 10 F-18s, if they are used wisely.

How big is Entalbass btw, and how would Rujio and Octambos politics and foreign policy be describe to other nations, like Russia and the US?

[KingoftheHill]

Mi-17s are only 2.5 million dollars!

[Proud American]

Wow. This is my kind of thread!!! Okay after 9 days of work.

Here is the nation of STHENOS
http://i16.tinypic.com/2jchspd.jpg

About my nation:
Sthenos is a sovreign nation with Greek roots and history. Sthenos broke apart from the nation of Greese in March of 2000. The Greek government supports Sthenos in it's endeavor to become a fully democratic nation with strong ties with Greese and the European Union. The Greek government realized that this speration will be a hard hit to the morale of it's people and it's economy and infastructure, but on the other hand this led to an superb opportunity to study the democratic process, and how new nations deal with different crisis situations and get strong feet in the cold water of the world economy. Greece is a full supporter of Sthenos in it's developement of a democracy and wishes the best for it's people.

Facts about Sthenos:
Population: 1.3 Million (598,000 women - 702,000 men)

Major energy Source: Wind and Coal Power

Transportation: 2 Main railroad lines. All 12 cities have Railroad stations. 3 passenger trains are active that can transport 3,000+ people per day. Trains run twice per day. There are 4 trains on reserve, being repaired.
There are also 4 freight trains, transporting coal, food, goods, animals, and other goods.

Airports: 2 airports are located on the island. The international airport is located in Ataraxia, and has capabilities of landing Boeing 767's. Boeing 747 and boeing 777 and larger aircraft cannot land at Ataraxia. AIA (Ataraxia International Airport) has 3 run ways. And standing room for 7 passenger jets. The military has 1 runway located at the south end of the airport, fenced off from all traffic.
The other airport is located at Helios. Helios can welcome smaller air traffic for short routes to europe and the middle east and africa. With 2 run ways, the Helios aiport stays busy nearly all year round.
The major air force base is located 5 miles south of Helios, and is capable of landing rather large transport aircraft. It operates 1 paved runway, and 1 unpaved runway. The runways in Sthenos as a whole are in bad shape, years of strugle and neglect have left the runays cracked and warped. The International airport is operating it's runways in International standard, they have been fixed and repaved in some spots.


Air Force:

The goal of the Sthenos air force is to protect it's air space, and to offer security for it's people.

Interceptor/Fighter Aircraft:

20 Operational Su-30 MKI - http://i9.tinypic.com/2lkp2ti.jpg
7 Reserve Su-30 MKI aircraft.

Electronic Countermeasures / Naval Survailance aircraft
4 Operational Sentinel R1 - http://i18.tinypic.com/49lpm6g.jpg
1 Reserve Sentinel R1

Support Aircraft :
8 Airbus A400M Transport Planes - http://i18.tinypic.com/2hywhed.jpg
5 Su-28 Trainer Aircraft (2 in reserve)
10 Ka-226 Surveilance/Anti-submarine/Rescue Helicopters (2 in reserve)

Attack Helicopters:

8 Mi-28 Havoc Helicopters (4 reserve) - http://i12.tinypic.com/2pp0zf9.jpg
5 Mi-24 HIND Helicopters

More later...

Thanks!

[daily666]

It looks like Crete... :)

[Ghelp]

Nice list.I think I will stick with mine.

[szr]

Fun thread.

I hate to say it but I'd be your typical clueless politico who buys what's (in his opinion) the coolest stuff available, if I were a top defense minister in some nascent, tabula rosa state.

First I'd decide whether I wanted to buy from the east or the west--a big decission because while I'm mostly clueless about what's in the best interest of my country (remember: I'm a career politician, not a General) I know enough that sticking to one sphere will simplify things tremendously.

I flip a coin and arbitrarily choose to buy western equipment. (I could have just as easily arbitrarily decided to buy eastern equipment).


Multirole workhorses:
36x F-16E/F (as used by the UAE)

Strike:
12x F-15SG (Singapore's platform)

Electronic Attack:
6x EA-18G

Secondary attack helicopter:
8x AH-64D (Israeli Longbow mods) Primary function: *** appeal - backdrop for my publicity photos

Primary attack helicopters:
18x AH-60L - attacks targets on land
18x MH-60R - attacks targets at sea, ASW

Troop transport helicopter:
28x MH-60K - because it can refuel in flight

Transport:
2x C-17 - poster child of our air mobility fleet. Again, a backdrop for my publicity photos
6x C-130J - carries what the C-27's can't
16x C-27J - most used for movment of hardware
24x C-23 - people movers

Aerial refueling:
5x KC-10 - boom and drogue; can refuel a large portion of my airforce.

AEW&C:
1x 737 Wedgetail
3x EMB-145 Erieye

UAV:
6x MQ-9 - Unmanned persistent CAS platform
1x RQ-4 Global Hawk
1x RQ-4 Euro Hawk - ELINT

After I've bankrupted my country, I buy a cushy pad on the French Riviera.

Someone make a navy version, next.

[Ruledbyjames]

Firstly, people are buying top of the line stuff and for a small nation and this isnt viable. Remember you're buying spare parts, maintenance, training crews and armaments aswell.

I would go for the whole "ant scenario". Buy lots of cheap aircraft and spare parts in bulk. As previously mentioned, F4's cost little but still pack a punch. They could cover things like fire support. No point in having high-tech planes in tiny numbers. The Israelis calculated you can get about 4 sortees out of one plane a day so the more planes the more sortees. Also you could cannibalise them for spare parts.

I'd throw in some more modern stuff aswell, maybe a squadron of F-18's and some older F-16's probably E/F.

If we are fighting a strictly defensive war on a small island then I would imagine that fixed wing transport aircraft would be a luxury. I'd go for Hueys and maybe some Mi-17's for larger transport capabilities.

I'll go into more detail later on the financial aspects. Also, what do people think of hiring mercs for pilots?! Its been done in nearly all the African conflicts and the would save time on training pilot.

[ren0312]

Well, I would go for a high low combination of F-5 E/F and F-16 Block 40 jet fighters, as well as Huey IIs, 3-5 surplus C-130s, and AH-1T attack helicopters, T-38 and SF-260 trainers, as well as Stinger and Hawk(perhaps I-Hawk if funds permit) missile batteries, I may buy some surplus CH-47s as well, however, that would have to come out of the budget for buying the Hueys, keeping in mind that the budget for the air force is only 3.2 billion US Dollars, and my population is only around 17 million, which would mean a standing armed forces of around 100000 or so. I got these figures because somebody suggested earlier that the defense budget is about the size of the Netherlands, which had a defense budget of about 9 billion US Dollars last time I checked, and he also said that the per capita income level is close to that of a high income country, which is where came up with a per capita GNI figure of about 8700 US Dollars, and I made the assumption that that country has a defense budget equivalent to about 6 per cent of GDP, which would give a GDP figure of 150 billion US Dollars, and also factoring in the fact that you would have to maintain those aircraft properly as well. It would really help if people make their purchasing desicions based on specific parameters, just to make this strategy game more intellectually rigorous.

[ren0312]

Wow. This is my kind of thread!!! Okay after 9 days of work.

Here is the nation of STHENOS
http://i16.tinypic.com/2jchspd.jpg

About my nation:
Sthenos is a sovreign nation with Greek roots and history. Sthenos broke apart from the nation of Greese in March of 2000. The Greek government supports Sthenos in it's endeavor to become a fully democratic nation with strong ties with Greese and the European Union. The Greek government realized that this speration will be a hard hit to the morale of it's people and it's economy and infastructure, but on the other hand this led to an superb opportunity to study the democratic process, and how new nations deal with different crisis situations and get strong feet in the cold water of the world economy. Greece is a full supporter of Sthenos in it's developement of a democracy and wishes the best for it's people.

Facts about Sthenos:
Population: 1.3 Million (598,000 women - 702,000 men)

Major energy Source: Wind and Coal Power

Transportation: 2 Main railroad lines. All 12 cities have Railroad stations. 3 passenger trains are active that can transport 3,000+ people per day. Trains run twice per day. There are 4 trains on reserve, being repaired.
There are also 4 freight trains, transporting coal, food, goods, animals, and other goods.

Airports: 2 airports are located on the island. The international airport is located in Ataraxia, and has capabilities of landing Boeing 767's. Boeing 747 and boeing 777 and larger aircraft cannot land at Ataraxia. AIA (Ataraxia International Airport) has 3 run ways. And standing room for 7 passenger jets. The military has 1 runway located at the south end of the airport, fenced off from all traffic.
The other airport is located at Helios. Helios can welcome smaller air traffic for short routes to europe and the middle east and africa. With 2 run ways, the Helios aiport stays busy nearly all year round.
The major air force base is located 5 miles south of Helios, and is capable of landing rather large transport aircraft. It operates 1 paved runway, and 1 unpaved runway. The runways in Sthenos as a whole are in bad shape, years of strugle and neglect have left the runays cracked and warped. The International airport is operating it's runways in International standard, they have been fixed and repaved in some spots.


Air Force:

The goal of the Sthenos air force is to protect it's air space, and to offer security for it's people.

Interceptor/Fighter Aircraft:

20 Operational Su-30 MKI - http://i9.tinypic.com/2lkp2ti.jpg
7 Reserve Su-30 MKI aircraft.

Electronic Countermeasures / Naval Survailance aircraft
4 Operational Sentinel R1 - http://i18.tinypic.com/49lpm6g.jpg
1 Reserve Sentinel R1

Support Aircraft :
8 Airbus A400M Transport Planes - http://i18.tinypic.com/2hywhed.jpg
5 Su-28 Trainer Aircraft (2 in reserve)
10 Ka-226 Surveilance/Anti-submarine/Rescue Helicopters (2 in reserve)

Attack Helicopters:

8 Mi-28 Havoc Helicopters (4 reserve) - http://i12.tinypic.com/2pp0zf9.jpg
5 Mi-24 HIND Helicopters

More later...

Thanks!






With a population of 1.3 million, and a per capita GNI of 16000, your economy is about 20.8 billion US Dollars, assuming that you spend 3.3 per cent of GDP on defense, that will give you a defence budget of 686.4 million US Dollars for this year, for all your branches, just trying to help you come up with the possible size of your economy, from which you can derive the size of your defense budget. With this defense budget, I hardly see how you can buy any figther jets for your air force, with maybe the exception of MB-339s or surplus A-4 Skyhawks, but even that would be stretching your budget, since you only have 230 million US Dollars to spend for your air force, so maybe buying Stinger batteries, 2 CN235s, and buying UH-1Hs and some Huey IIs equiped with miniguns and rocket pods, and SF-260 trainers/light attack craft are all that you could realistically afford for your air force, considering that you would have to maintain your assets, in addition to paying for your pilots, paying for the training, etc, sorry to blow your bubble, but your small population precludes you having a well equiped air force.

[marktigger]

36 F/A18C
12 F/A18D
16 Ex Swiss AF HAwk trainers
16 Pilatuc PC9
6 C130K
2 C130K-30
8 P3C
6 P3c Orion AEW
2 P3C Orion ELINT
6 C27A
6 C23
4 Airbus A310 MRTT
24 AW139
12 Agusta A109
12 Bo105 PAH1
6 CH53x
12 SA330l Puma (ex Portugese AF)

[JackTheRipper]

now

120 F/A-18E
80 F/A-18F
6 767AEW
12 767 Tanker
5 C-17
12 C-130J
12 C-27J

future (2025?)

90 EF-2000 tranche 3 multi-role
110 F-35A-B
6 767AEW
12 767 Tanker
5 C-17
12 C-130J
12 C-27J

[Proud American]

With a population of 1.3 million, and a per capita GNI of 16000, your economy is about 20.8 billion US Dollars, assuming that you spend 3.3 per cent of GDP on defense, that will give you a defence budget of 686.4 million US Dollars for this year, for all your branches, just trying to help you come up with the possible size of your economy, from which you can derive the size of your defense budget. With this defense budget, I hardly see how you can buy any figther jets for your air force, with maybe the exception of MB-339s or surplus A-4 Skyhawks, but even that would be stretching your budget, since you only have 230 million US Dollars to spend for your air force, so maybe buying Stinger batteries, 2 CN235s, and buying UH-1Hs and some Huey IIs equiped with miniguns and rocket pods, and SF-260 trainers/light attack craft are all that you could realistically afford for your air force, considering that you would have to maintain your assets, in addition to paying for your pilots, paying for the training, etc, sorry to blow your bubble, but your small population precludes you having a well equiped air force.

sorry to blow your bubble but I don't give a **** to what you say

[jerka71_1]

@Proud American

How do you plan to use your reserve AC, wrap them in cellophane?:)

[KingoftheHill]

now

120 F/A-18E
80 F/A-18F
6 767AEW
12 767 Tanker
5 C-17
12 C-130J
12 C-27J

future (2025?)

90 EF-2000 tranche 3 multi-role
110 F-35A-B
6 767AEW
12 767 Tanker
5 C-17
12 C-130J
12 C-27J
Are you a superpower?

[JackTheRipper]

Are you a superpower?

no, i'm talking about a country like sweden or italy

[KingoftheHill]

no, i'm talking about a country like sweden or italy
Well you are certainly taking the fun out.

We are talking about a small nation not a regional power.


:roll:

[JackTheRipper]

Well you are certainly taking the fun out.

We are talking about a small nation not a regional power.


:roll:

sorry i've only read the title of the thread :cantbeli:

well:

30 Su-30MK
25 Su-25T
12 M-28N
8 ATR72 ASW
12 C-27J
8 C-130J
2 737 Wedgetail
4 KC-10

[foxtrot023]

some real live small AFs-

Ecuador
The FAE today
The airforce has a unique mixture of types on its inventory, mostly from Western origin. The prime fighters are the Mirage F.1, Kfir C2, CE, and Jaguar Mk.1 all based at Taura with Ala 21. For advanced training and light attack missions, Strikemaster Mk.89, 90, and A-37B are in use at Manta with Ala 23. These aircraft often operate from airfields in the amazon region.

The transport wing uses various marks of the C-130 Hercules, DHC-6, BAe.748 to transport passengers, haul cargo and support the units deployed to the secondary airfields dotted around the country.

check out this page-
http://www.scramble.nl/airforces.htm

[szr]

Transport:
2x C-17 - poster child of our air mobility fleet. Again, a backdrop for my publicity photos
6x C-130J - carries what the C-27's can't
16x C-27J - most used for movment of hardware
24x C-23 - people movers
Q. Why so many C-130s and C-27s for such a small country, szr?

A. Great question! We'd charter our air mobility capacity to help fund our extravagant air force. http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[KingoftheHill]

sorry i've only read the title of the thread :cantbeli:

well:

30 Su-30MK
25 Su-25T
12 M-28N
8 ATR72 ASW
12 C-27J
8 C-130J
2 737 Wedgetail
4 KC-10
Alot better bro woot

[Jabroni]

Reserve Force:

F-21 Kfir
F-4E Phantom
B-66 Destroyer
KB-66
C-17

Regular Force:

F-16 Falcon
F-15 Eagle
F-19 Specter
B-66 Destroyer
KC-10 Extender
C-17

Navy Air Wing Reserve:

F-4E Phantom
A-3 Skywarrior
KA-3 Whale

Navy Air Wing:

F-14 Tomcat
F-15 Seagle
F-19 Specter
A-3 Skywarrior
KA-3 Whale

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

B-66 Destroyer
A-3 Skywarrior
KA-3 Whale

Museum pieces, kinda hard to find spares for...



F-15 Seagle
F-19 Specter


rofl

It might be a fictious airforce, but fictious aircraft don't count.

[Jabroni]

The B-66/A-3 planes could be updated variants?

I like them planes being smallish and being capable of the bombing/tanker/awacs role, and the fact there was a naval variant. Its not as old as the B-52 which is still flying today.

The F-15N Seagle programme would have been a good move since there are well more F-15's out there than Tomcats and have better performance etc.

The 'gun nosed' F-4E Phantom should have been given to the USN at the first place, They were in the need of a Vulcan gun when they came into dogfight situations. Its deffo possible to use one on a carrier although never tried, Its airframe was already designed for the navy to start with.

[Razvodnik]

Wow. This is my kind of thread!!! Okay after 9 days of work.

Here is the nation of STHENOS
http://i16.tinypic.com/2jchspd.jpg

About my nation:
Sthenos is a sovreign nation with Greek roots and history. Sthenos broke apart from the nation of Greese in March of 2000. The Greek government supports Sthenos in it's endeavor to become a fully democratic nation with strong ties with Greese and the European Union. The Greek government realized that this speration will be a hard hit to the morale of it's people and it's economy and infastructure, but on the other hand this led to an superb opportunity to study the democratic process, and how new nations deal with different crisis situations and get strong feet in the cold water of the world economy. Greece is a full supporter of Sthenos in it's developement of a democracy and wishes the best for it's people.

Facts about Sthenos:
Population: 1.3 Million (598,000 women - 702,000 men)

Major energy Source: Wind and Coal Power

Transportation: 2 Main railroad lines. All 12 cities have Railroad stations. 3 passenger trains are active that can transport 3,000+ people per day. Trains run twice per day. There are 4 trains on reserve, being repaired.
There are also 4 freight trains, transporting coal, food, goods, animals, and other goods.

Airports: 2 airports are located on the island. The international airport is located in Ataraxia, and has capabilities of landing Boeing 767's. Boeing 747 and boeing 777 and larger aircraft cannot land at Ataraxia. AIA (Ataraxia International Airport) has 3 run ways. And standing room for 7 passenger jets. The military has 1 runway located at the south end of the airport, fenced off from all traffic.
The other airport is located at Helios. Helios can welcome smaller air traffic for short routes to europe and the middle east and africa. With 2 run ways, the Helios aiport stays busy nearly all year round.
The major air force base is located 5 miles south of Helios, and is capable of landing rather large transport aircraft. It operates 1 paved runway, and 1 unpaved runway. The runways in Sthenos as a whole are in bad shape, years of strugle and neglect have left the runays cracked and warped. The International airport is operating it's runways in International standard, they have been fixed and repaved in some spots.


Air Force:

The goal of the Sthenos air force is to protect it's air space, and to offer security for it's people.




I´ll try to make the job more realistic and political correct.

In due to the strong connections to Greece i would suggest the buy of six used F16 Block C Aircraft. The pilots training could be handled with the USAF or any other F16 Operator in the EU, Denmark, Belgium, Netherland or Greece.

Because we have a preety big maritime area to control i would like to see two or three Embraer145 for surveilance and four S-70 helicopter, SAR capable, for bringing in Boarding teams to control Ships in our territorial water. The pilots training and the mainentance i would handle over to Greece Navy which operates the same Aircraft.

For the stoping of ships i think some speed boats or small destroyer will be needed.

I think my choice of inventory makes more sense in due the political situation our country are. Russian stuff forces me to build up my own logistic for mainentance and repair. So i could handle this with EU states without any problems.

Just my opinion.

Greets
Razvodnik

[Bahamian]

I guess I'll take a stab at this

16 F-16 Block 30
24 F-5 E/F
48 Super Tucano (12 trainers)
150 MiG-21 modded by Israel
24 Huey II
12 An-32
16 Hind
2 Mi-26T
2 Falcon 900 in VIP role

[Kippari]

Heh, join NATO and let the Americans to take care of the air-defence by building bases in there.

[Razvodnik]

I guess I'll take a stab at this

16 F-16 Block 30
24 F-5 E/F
48 Super Tucano (12 trainers)
150 MiG-21 modded by Israel
24 Huey II
12 An-32
16 Hind
2 Mi-26T
2 Falcon 900 in VIP role

And who to fück should pay the gas bill? :roll:

There are only 1,3 Milion (like the Bronx in NYC, how big is their Air Force?) peoples on this island! Which GDP per inhabitant is needed to pay for such a fleet?

Please Ladies, cool down and be realistic :)

[KingoftheHill]

This thread is sticky status.

[JesperAFCA]

Are aircrafts on AMARC a real possibility to buy? And how much should those a/c cost?

http://www.amarcexperience.com/AMARCDBAircraftTypesSummary.asp

[KingoftheHill]

Are aircrafts on AMARC a real possibility to buy? And how much should those a/c cost?

http://www.amarcexperience.com/AMARCDBAircraftTypesSummary.asp

Wow, 4254 aircraft! :lol:

[8thidpathfinderpower]

If I were going to equip an air force, here is what I would get...

Bombers.....FB111 Ardvarks 50ea
Tankers......KC767 world tanker 100ea
Transports....C130J, C17A, and the C27J C130J....50ea C17A....25ea C27J....75ea
Helos.....Ch47F, UH60,and UH1H(new build) AH64 Longbows and OH58D
CH47...100ea UH60....200ea UH1H....100ea AH64 Longbow....200ea
OH58D 100ea
AEW and C3.....10 767AWACS and 5 E10 series aircraft
Fighters...F16, F15, and Swedeish J38 Grippen
F16C/CJ/D....100ea F15E Dual role fighter...50ea and J38 Grippen....100ea
Attack...AV8B Harrier....30ea, and P51 MustangII attack fighter

[Xaito]

imo you guys should have made your shopping list with an exactly predetermined budget - then you could better compare the combinations of the aircrafts and would maybe be forced to go for a specific doctrine like air supperiority or mostly bomber etc - also you'd maybe be forced to take russian made aircrafts in some cases instead of the expensive western stuff to make the ends meet ;)

[KingoftheHill]

imo you guys should have made your shopping list with an exactly predetermined budget - then you could better compare the combinations of the aircrafts and would maybe be forced to go for a specific doctrine like air supperiority or mostly bomber etc - also you'd maybe be forced to take russian made aircrafts in some cases instead of the expensive western stuff to make the ends meet ;)

Hey mines, was meant to fit under the budget :)


x2 About the Russians, you can get 2 Su-30MKs for the price of 1 F-15.

[Outlands]

Eh, I gotta go back and read this entire thread through. But, having not yet done so, here's my stab at it:

Beechcraft AT-6B - CO-IN/Light Strike
Rafale - air-superiority fighter/strike fighter
A-6 - latest upgraded kit, bomber
MI-24 Hind - chopper gunship
EH-101 - air transport
UH-1 Huey - latest upgrades, air transport


That's my bare-bones idea for air equipment.

Ground equip:
CV-90 family
B1 Centauro family
Centurion MkVI
Wiesel family
ASV-1117
(surplus Panhard AML-90/60/20's would work, if budget req'd it)

Small Arms:
G36 family
MG-3 7.62mm GPMG
Mk23 SOCOM pistol
M2 Browning .50 HMG

Naval assets:
uh, I'll get back to you on that...

[JackTheRipper]

thinking...
it would be fine if Russia and Europe had joined the Su-30 with the Typhoon...
aerodynamics and HMS from russia, avionics and materials for the reduction of RCS from europe.
an ultimate multy-role fighter with only the F-22 like competitor (but much more economic).

so i will equip my airforce with this jewel

[grenadier07]

First post so be gentle.
Fighter - F-15A/B refurbished 30/6
Fighter/bomber - F-18A+/B 40/8
Strike/Interdiction - A-6E 12
CAS - Either A-10 or mix of A-4/F-5
Trainer - T-6 Texan 2 and T-38 12/12 mix
Attack Helicopter - AH-1F 50
Scout - OH-58 50
Utility - UH-1H 75
Heavy Lift - CH-47 or 53's 25
Transport - C-130H 12
Maritime Patrol/ASW - P-3/S-3 8/12 mix
AWACS - E-2 8
Electronic Warfare - EF-111 10

[Ordie]

This is my version of a "poorman's" air force built around a single engine type (PT-6)

Attack:
Super Tucano - 12
Basler BT-67 Gunship- 6

Transport:
Cessna Caravan- 12
Beechcraft 1900- 6
Casa 212- 8
Basler BT-67- 4

MP/Elint:
Basler BT-67- 2

Helicopters:
AB214 Griffon- 20
AB 139- 12

Training:
Contract it to civilians

Revenue Generator:
Beechcraft 1900 to provide essential air services for civilians.
(Frequent flyer promotion with every 20th trip to earn a free ride in a Tucano!)

[RealAir]

Analysis – How would a war be fought?

Assuming that Otacambo and Rujilo fight together against Entelbass, Entelbass will be severely outnumbered, on air, sea and possibly land.
Rujilo shares a land border with Entelbass, and as such is the most immediate threat. It also has a far more capable air-force than Otacambo, with MiG-29C aircraft, as well as Mirage III and F1 aircraft. The only real aerial threat from Otacambo is its 4 Tu-22 and 6 Tu-16 bombers, neither of which have precision strike capability.
Since the EAF (Entelbass Air Force) is on a tight budget, aircraft from Russia would seem to be the best in terms of “bang-for-buck”

Objectives for Entelbass:
Achieve air-superiority over home soil
Repel any land-based attack over the Rujilo border.
Destroy enemy airbases, as well as command & control centres.
Neutralise naval threat from Otacambo and Rujilo.What is required to meet these objectives?

Air-Superiority –
Since Rujilo possesses several MiG-29C’s, any aircraft to be used in an air-superiority role must be able to deal with such a threat. The aircraft must be fairly reliable as sortie-rates will be extremely high in order to deal with so large a threat.

CAS –
Any aircraft used in CAS must be extremely resilient as they can be expected to receive a fairly large amount of punishment. Also must be able to carry large loads in order to effect maximum damage to enemy forces.

Strike –
Must be able to carry a wide variety of munitions, and be able to deploy them with accuracy in order to avoid collateral damage.

Aircraft Selected:
36x Su-30MK = $1.18 billion
54x Su-25SM = $810 million
4x Il-38 = $100 million
1x Tu-142MR = $35 million
2x Il-78T = $50 million


EAF ORBAT:
1 Sqn – 12x Su-30MK – Role: Air Superiority / Strike
2 Sqn – 12x Su-30MK – Role: Air Superiority / Strike
3 Sqn – 12x Su-30MK – Role: Air Superiority / Strike/ Training
4 Sqn – 18x Su-25SM – Role: CAS/Strike
5 Sqn – 18x Su-25SM – Role: CAS/Strike
6 Sqn – 18x Su-25SM – Role: CAS/Strike/Training
7 Sqn – 4x Il-38 – Role: ASW
8 Sqn – 6x An-32 – Role: Logistical Support
9 Sqn – 2x Yak-40 – Role: Liaison / VIP Transport
10 Sqn – 2x Il-78T, 1x Tu-142MR – Role: Logistical Support / AEW / AARRotary Wing aircraft operated by Army.

Argh...I forgot about basic trainers etc..., ah well, sod it. You get the gist of it.

[Recon FO]

OK. Here's a quick, hypothetical terrain overview and a basic ORBAT for the two hostile neighbors. It helps me because I'm a visual person. If anyone wants I can flesh out a map a little bit more, showing existing airbases and key terrain if it helps.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3841/overviewwm5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Threat Country: Otacambo

Quick Description of Threat: While sharing no land border with Entelbass, it does contest the oil and gas fields in the shallows seperating the two countries. It also has a controlling position over the Otacambo Straight, which 40% of Entelbass' foreign trade comes through.

There have been some minor disputes over fishing since Entelbass' independence, but nothing like an armed incident thus far. Overall Otacamban posture is hostile, but not aggressive.

Otacambo Air Force:

1st Air Regiment: 24 MiG-21MF (http://www.**********/Bilder/Timisoara02_3.jpg)

2nd Air Regiment: 24 MiG-21MF

3rd Air Regiment: 22 SU-17/20/22 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su-20-10p02.jpg)

4th Air Regiment: 6 Tu-16, 4 Tu-22 with no ASM capability (only iron bombs and sea mines)

5th Air Regiment: 20-24 MiG-23ML (http://www.military.cz/russia/air/mig/Mig_23/images/mig23_3.jpg)

6th Air Regiment: 18 Mi-25 Hind D

7th Air Regiment: 6 AN-12

Otacambo Navy:

Frigates: 2 Krivak-class FFG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krivak_class_frigate

Other: 6 Osa II class PGMs
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Osa-II.html

3-4 minor landing craft capable of sustained amphibious operations. Can only support a small battalion-sized force for any length of time, however.

Submarines: 3 Foxtrot class SS
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Foxtrot.html

Threat Country: Rujilo

Quick Description of Threat: Rujilo is the only Union member sharing a land border with Entelbass. They are also the largest Union member, and following Entelbass, the most prosperous. They own the bulk of the Union's top of the line military equipment, though like the rest of the Union their military is a conscript system and most of the 18-month conscripts are unmotivated, poorly trained and lead.

Rujilo still considers Entelbass to be a part of the Union and has territorial claims on much of its offshore territory. There have been some minor skirmishes offshore and along the land border, usually involving only a dozen or so rounds fired on either side. Rujilo is actively and overtly supporting ethnic Rujilians in Entelbass, and has been accused of sponsoring terror attacks in the Entelbass capital.

Rujilo Air Force

112th Squadron: 18 MiG-29A

115th Squadron: 15 MiG-29A

116th Squadron: 18 MiG-25

118th Squadron: 14 Mirage F-1CR

119th Squadron: 16 Mirage IIIER

120th Squadron: 18 MiG-29C

121st Squadron: 20 MiG-23ML

122nd Squadron: 17 MiG-23ML

125th Squadron: 14 Su-25

126th Squadron: 16 Su-25

511th Squadron: 16 Mi-25D

512th Squadron: 16 Mi-35P

513th Squadron: 24 Mi-8T

514th Squadron: 22 Mi-8T

601st Squadron: 6 IL-76

602nd Squadron: 8 AN-72

603rd Squadron: 6 C-160

604th Squadron: 10 IL-38

Rujilo Navy

Destroyers: 3 Kashin class DDG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashin_class_destroyer

Frigates: 2 Koni class FF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koni_class_frigate

4 Petya class FF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petya_class_frigate

2 Leander class FF (with Exocet)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leander_Class

Other:

2 Nanuchka class PGMs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanuchka_class_corvette

8 Osa II class PGMs

3 Polnocny A class LSTs
8-10 minor landing craft. All told a reinforced battalion could be landed anywhere on Entelbass' coast.

Submarines:

2 Kilo-class SSKs

4 Romeo class SS

3 Foxtrol class SS

Rujilo Army

2 Tank Divisions (Soviet style - 3 tank, 1 BMP regiment).
4 Motor Rifle Divisions (Soviet style, 1 tank, 1 BMP, 2 BTR regiments)
3 Air Assault Brigades (light infantry only)
5 Motor Rifle Brigades (wheeled APCs or trucks)

Tanks: 300 T-72M1, 100 T-90S, 450 T-55A, 120 AMX-30B
IFVs: 500 BMP-1, 200 BMP-2
APCs: 700 BTR-60P/PB, 200 BTR-80, 200 VAB VCI
Artillery: 200 2S1, 50 2S3, 50 M-109. 500+ various towed guns
ADA: 10 SA-2L batteries, 4 SA-3 batteries, 6 SA-5 batteries, ZSU-23-4, SA-9, SA-13, SA-6


Air force

fighter/attack/recon
24x JAS 39 Gripen C/D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAS_39_Gripen

training/attack
16x Bae Hawk 120 LIFT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Hawk

training/attack/COIN
18x Super Tucano A-29B
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_EMB_314_Super_Tucano

AEW
2x Embraer R-99A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_R-99

ASW/maritime patrol/ELINT
2x Embraer P-99
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_R-99

Transport
2x C 130H Hercules
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-130_Hercules#Later_C-130_models_.26_variants

Helicopters

Transport
10x NH90 TTH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHI_NH90

ASW/ASUW/SAR
4x NH90 NFH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHI_NH90

training/observation/attack
10x AH/MH-6J
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_H-6#Variants

Navy

Submarines

4x Type 206A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_206_submarine

Missile boats

8x Hamina class missile boat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamina_class_missile_boat

Minelayers

2x Hämeenmaa class
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hämeenmaa_class_minelayer

MCMV/ASW/patrol

2x Landsort class
http://www.kockums.se/Products/products.html

3x Styrsö Class
http://www.kockums.se/Products/products.html

Army

MBT

120x Leopard 2A4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2#Leopard_2A4

IFV

40x Hägglunds CV90120-T
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/cv90120.htm

120x Hägglunds CV9030
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Vehicle_90

APC

150x Bandvagn BvS 10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandvagn_206

150x Patria AMV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_AMV

Sp artillery

18x AMOS on CV 90
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMOS

80x M109A6 "Paladin"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M109_howitzer#M109A6_.22Paladin.22

80x G6 sp howitzer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G6_howitzer

Artillery/mortars

800x 81mm mortars

500x 120mm mortars

200x G5 howitzer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G5_howitzer

MLRS

24x Astros II
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/astros/

Entertaining thread so i had a go also.:)

[Sturm]

Hey
I like this thread
I suppose Ertellbass can export oil soh money is comming in.
This will make them allso vulnereball, they have to protect their coast to protect oil and gas tankers oil rig etcetra.
So naval and airforce will be very important

[Sturm]

Hey
I like this thread
I suppose Ertellbass can export oil soh money is comming in.
This will make them allso vulnereball, they have to protect their coast to protect oil and gas tankers oil rig etcetra.
So naval and airforce will be very important

My defence force layout

Navy:
20x Finnish fast attack craft
4x ex dutch m klass frigate
5x Damen sigma corrvets
http://www.damen.nl/PRODUCTS/SIGMA_-_CORVETTES.aspx?mId=8632
2x Kilo submarines
10x DAMEN INTERCEPTOR 2604 http://www.damen.nl/PRODUCTS/DAMEN_INTERCEPTORS.aspx?mId=8640
2x logistic support vessel
10x Lynks asw helicopters


Airforce:
fighters:
25x mirage f1 ex Qatar and ex france
20x ex eurpean mlu f16

transport
2x c130
2x Casa

Helicopters
35x puma helicopters
15x mil mi_24 Hind

Trainers
10x Pilatus pc7

Army:
tanks:
80x Leopart 2a4

APC
250x CV 90
100x Boxer

Atillerie
25x ptzh2000
800x 81mm mortars
400x 120mm mortars
80 MLRS
100 Cheetah PRTL

AA
20x Hawk AA missile systems
150x stinger manpads
100x ZU23 AA artillerie

Strategic transport
800x Landrover
500x scania WLS
http://www.landmacht.nl/materieel/huidig_materieel/Transportmaterieel/Wissel_Laad_Systeem.aspx
1000x Scania p114 troop transport

[Kippari]

So it's the Entelbassian Defence Forces?
Anyways
Doctrine: Self-defensive, with capability of sustaining small peacekeeping forces and battle-group sized units abroad.
In case of open conflict with the Union, the main priority is to knock Otacambo out of the war by bombing it's infrastructure as soon as hostilities escalate. If only Rujilo is involved in the conflict, it is priority to keep Otacambo happy and show some force to keep them back.
During the conflict it is priority to achieve air-superiority over Entelbass and work towards extending it into the attacking country.


Air superiority: Su-30MKE* or Su-35(E) x 35
Multirole: Chengdu J-10/MiG-29SMT x 30
Basic trainer/secondary attack: Super Tucano x 20
Jet trainer/ground attack: BAe Hawk x 20
Primary attack: Su-34E x 10
Ground attack: Su-25 x 15

AEW&C: Embraer R-99A x 3
Transport: C-130J x 3
Special transport: An-72 x 5

Long range AA S-400 Triumf x 10

Helicopters are more of a part of the army aviation

Combat: Denel Rooivalk AH-2A x 20
Transport/utility/asw. etc.: NH-90 (different versions) x 30
Light utility/transport/scout: Hughes MD-500 x 10
Heavy-transport: CH-47D x 6

Army:

Leopard 2A4 (To be upgraded to A6+ standards) x 105
T-72M (old union equipment to be upgraded to M-95 Degman) x 120
Marder IFV (retired german army surplus) x 200
BMP-2 (old union equipment) x 110
T-55 Achzarit APC (Modified from old union T-55 hulls) x 120
VAB APC x 300
M270 MLRS x 20
2S1 Gvodzika x 40
155 GH 52 APU field gun x 100
G-6 howitzer x 60
T-55/72 Marksman AA System x 30
Buk-M1 x 20
KP-SAM Shingung MANPADS x 500


Fire-arms:
HK416 (for professional part of the army and special forces)
G3A3/5 (for conscripts)
AKM (for conscripts)
MSG-90/G3SG-1 (DMR rifle)
Sako TRG-22/42 (Precision sniper rifle)
Chey-Tac .50 (Heavy sniper/anti-material rifle)
MG3 GPMG
MG4 LMG
H&K USP (different versions)
AT-4 LAW

*("E" is for the country designation and version with minor changes to suit the Entelbassian AF's needs)


I will update the list when i have more time.

[Eeobroht87]

Epic gravedig, but I thought this was an epic thread that should be allowed to continue to live. Here's my suggestion:


Entelbass Air Force

Fixed-Wing



F-16C Block 52+ Fighting Falcon: 48 (multirole fighter, more than a match for OPFOR MiGs and Mirages, can be used for anti-shipping with AGM-84 Harpoon Block II. At $18.8 mill a pop, its worth the investment) in four squadrons + option for a further 12 aircraft
F-16D Block 52+ Fighting Falcon: 8 (multirole fighter, more than a match for OPFOR MiGs and Mirages, can be used for anti-shipping with AGM-84 Harpoon Block II. At $18.8 mill a pop, its worth the investment), two per F-16 squadron + option for a further 2 aircraft
Embraer A-29B EMB 314 Super Tucano: 16 (primarily trainers, can be used for ground attack) in one squadron + option for a further 6 aircraft
Lockheed C-130E Hercules: 4 (transports bought cheaply from US/other users who are phasing them out in favor of C-130J) in one squadron + option for a further 2 aircraft
Dassault Falcon 50: 1 (VIP transport) in the transport squadron with the Hercs + option for 1 extra aircraft
AMD HU-25A Guardian: 5 (maritime patrol/surveillance, bought cheaply from AMARC stores) in one squadron + option for a further 2 aircraft
Embraer EMB-145-R99 AEW: 2 (airborne early warning) in one squadron + option for 1 extra aircraft
Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler: 8 (electronic warfare, bought cheaply from US as it is phased out in favor of EF-18 Growler) in one squadron + option for a further 4 aircraft
General Atmonics MQ-9 Reaper UAV: 8 (surveillance to complement HU-25As, secondary role as ground attack) in one squadron + option for a further 4 aircraft



Rotary-Wing



Bell AH-1J SuperCobra: 24 (attack helicopters, bought cheaply from AMARC stores) in three squadrons + option for a further 3 aircraft
Bell UH-1N Twin Huey: 40 (transport helicopters, bought cheaply) in five squadrons + option for a further 8 aircraft
AgustaWestland Super Lynx Mk.120: 12 (ASW/search and rescue helicopters) in one squadron + option for a further 4 aircraft



Air Defence


S-300PMU-2 (SA-20B Favorite) Battery: 5 (3 covering north-east airspace, 1 covering eastern border airspace, 1 covering capital) + option for a further 2 batteries
NASAMS (AIM-120 AMRAAM) Battery: 11 (1 per airbase (3 airbases), 1 for capital, 7 for covering borders/important installations) + option for a further 3 batteries



Aircraft Weapons List


IRIS-T (Short-Range Air To Air Missile)
AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM (Medium-Range Air to Air Missile) (also used in NASAMS)
AGM-65 Maverick (Air-Launched Anti-Armour Missile)
AGM-84 Harpoon Block II (Air-Launched Anti-Shipping Missile)
AGM-88D HARM (Anti-Radiation Missile)
AGM-114K Hellfire II (Air-Launched Anti-Armour Missile)
Mark 82 (500 lb. General-Purpose Bomb)
Mark 83 (1000 lb. General-Purpose Bomb)
GBU-12 Paveway II (500 lb. Laser-Guided Bomb)
GBU-38/B JDAM (500 lb. GPS-Guided Bomb)
CBU-87 Combined Effects Munition (Cluster Bomb)
CRV7 (70mm Unguided Rocket)
MU90 Impact (324mm Air-Dropped Torpedo)


Entelbass Army

Approximately 25 000 regular forces, 11 000 reserve forces

1 Brigade (ca 5 500 troops)


1 Brigade HQ
11 Infantry Battalion Motorised Infantry (70 MT-LB*)
12 Infantry Battalion Motorised Infantry (70 MT-LB*)
13 Infantry Battalion Light Infantry
14 Armored Battalion Tank (42 PT-91E Twardy, 14 BMP-2*)
15 Artillery Battalion Self-Propelled Artillery (18 Archer 155mm)
16 Engineer Battalion
17 Logistics Battalion
18 Antiarmor Company (Jeep + FGM-148 Javelin)
19 Antiair Company Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft (8 ZSU-23-4MP Biala)



2 Brigade (ca 5 800 troops)


2 Brigade HQ
21 Infantry Battalion Motorised Infantry (70 MT-LB*)
22 Infantry Battalion Motorised Infantry (70 MT-LB*)
23 Infantry Battalion Light Infantry
24 Infantry Battalion Light Infantry
25 Artillery Battalion Self-Propelled Artillery (24 Archer 155mm)
26 Engineer Battalion
27 Logistics Battalion
28 Antiarmor Company (Jeep + FGM-148 Javelin)
29 Antiair Company Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft (8 ZSU-23-4MP Biala)



3 Brigade (ca 5 500 troops)


3 Brigade HQ
31 Mechanized Battalion Mechanized Infantry (48 BMP-2*)
32 Infantry Battalion Motorised Infantry (70 MT-LB*)
33 Mechanized Battalion Mechanized Infantry (48 BMP-2*)
34 Armored Battalion Tank (42 PT-91E Twardy**, 14 BMP-2*)
35 Artillery Battalion Self-Propelled Artillery (18 Archer 155mm)
36 Engineer Battalion
37 Logistics Battalion
38 Antiarmor Company (Jeep + FGM-148 Javelin)
39 Antiair Company Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft (8 ZSU-23-4MP Biala)



4 Brigade (Reserve) (ca 5 500 troops)


4 Brigade HQ
41 Infantry Battalion Motorised Infantry (70 MT-LB*)
42 Infantry Battalion Light Infantry
43 Infantry Battalion Light Infantry
44 Armored Battalion Tank (42 PT-91E Twardy, 14 BMP-2*)
45 Artillery Battalion Self-Propelled Artillery (24 2S1)
46 Engineer Battalion
47 Logistics Battalion
48 Antiarmor Company (Jeep + FGM-148 Javelin)
49 Antiair Company Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft (8 ZSU-23-4MP Biala)



5 Brigade (Reserve) (ca 5 500 troops)


5 Brigade HQ
51 Infantry Battalion Motorised Infantry (70 MT-LB*)
52 Infantry Battalion Light Infantry
53 Infantry Battalion Light Infantry
54 Armored Battalion Tank (42 PT-91E Twardy, 14 BMP-2*)
55 Artillery Battalion Self-Propelled Artillery (24 2S1)
56 Engineer Battalion
57 Logistics Battalion
58 Antiarmor Company (Jeep + FGM-148 Javelin)
59 Antiair Company Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft (8 ZSU-23-4MP Biala)



6 Commando Battalion (ca 800 troops)


Battalion HQ
61 Commando Company
62 Commando Company
63 Commando Company
64 Commando Company
Support Company



Major Equipment


PT-91E Twardy MBT: 168 (including 84 in reserves)
BMP-2 IFV: 152 (including 28 in reserves)
MT-LB APC: 490 (including 140 in reserves)
Archer 155mm SPG: 60
2S1 122mm SPG: 48 (reserve)
ZSU-23-4MP Biala SPAAG: 40 (including 16 in reserves)



Small Arms


Colt Canada C7A2 (5.56x45mm) assault rifle
Colt Canada C8A1 (5.56x45mm) assault carbine
H&K HK416 (5.56x45mm) assault rifle
H&K HK417 (7.62x51mm) designated marksman rifle
H&K MG4 (5.56x45mm) light machine gun
FN MAG (7.62x51mm) general-purpose/coaxial machine gun
Colt M1911A1 (.45 APC) pistol
H&K P30 (9x19mm) pistol
H&K AG36 (40x46mm) grenade launcher
Bazalt RPG-29 (105mm) rocket propelled grenade
Nammo M72E10 (66mm) light antiarmor weapon



Notes
* = Taken from the existing stores from the time Entelbass was in the union and upgraded where necessary (machine guns, electronics)