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budanski
04-25-2004, 03:19 PM
Nuclear Sub Revolt: Muntiny on HMS Trafalgar
Glasgow Sunday Mail (http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14178154&method=full&siteid=86024&headline=nuclear-sub-revolt--mutiny-on-the-trafalgar-name_page.html)

Apr 25 2004

EXCLUSIVE: 11 'traumatised' crew refuse to sail £300m vessel's return to sea putoff
By Russell Findlay

A NUCLEAR submarine failed to set sail on its first mission since hitting the seabed after the crew mutinied.

The 11 sailors told their skipper they were 'too traumatised' just as HMS Trafalgar was set to leave Faslane on the Clyde.

They staged the revolt on Friday, 18 months after the £300million sub ran aground off the Isle of Skye.

The unnamed skipper listened to the concerns and agreed to replace the men, who will be given counselling.

Last night, Royal Navy top brass admitted the 'shakedown' trip had been delayed.

One Navy veteran said: 'These men obviously suffered a fright during the incident off Skye. But it pales in comparison to what military personnel face during conflict.

'Many people will be taken aback that a nuclear submarine crew would stage a mutiny. In the past, the Navy would have treated this type of behaviour as insubordination rather than with kid gloves.'

The sub is one of seven Trafalgar class Royal Navy vessels that were built between 1978 and 1990.

With a crew of 130, the 5200-ton vessel used Tomahawk missiles to wipe out an al-Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan.

But, in November 2002, it crashed into the seabed off the north-west of Skye.

The crew were badly shaken and three injured after they were violently thrown to the ground. A court martial hearing last month took action against Commanders Robert Fancy and Ian McGhie, both 39.

Both men were reprimanded after trainees under their command caused an estimated £5million worth of damage.

The Trafalgar was finally ready to return to sea on Friday.

The 'shakedown' cruise was to put the repaired sub through its paces to ensure everything had been fixed. On Tuesday, the sub had been 'pushed to the limit' while still docked at Faslane home to the UK's nuclear deterrent.

Diesel had leaked into the ventilation system, sparking an alarm and forcing crew to breath through masks. Top brass believe that incident coupled with memories of the Skye crash sparked Friday's mutiny.

All 11 men who approached their skipper had declined the Navy's offer of oneto-one counselling after the Skye incident.

The Navy is assembling a team of replacement sailors with specialist skills.

Last night, a Royal Navy spokesman said: 'A number of sailors seem to have suffered delayed post-traumatic stress disorder.

'There had been an incident where diesel got into the ventilation system. The sub was being pushed to the limit without going anywhere, which is a normal procedure after a major refit of this sort.

'There was a diesel blowback which caused alarms to ring and a whiff of fuel.

'The crew then used face masks to use the emergency breathing system. That went fine and they sorted the problem.

'But this could have been another little click on the scale of stress to someone who didn't realise they had a problem.'

WARSHIP HMS Nottingham, which hit rocks off Australia in 2002 causing £39million damage, went back to sea from Portsmouth yesterday.

mailfile

Infamous mutinies

MUTINY is defined as open rebellion against authority.

THE most famous is the Mutiny on the Bounty of 1787, when sailors led by Fletcher Christian played by Marlon Brando, left, in the Hollywood version captured the ship.

IN 1857, the Indian Mutiny broke out with dissent among locals against British military rule.

IN 1931, the Atlantic fleet half the Royal Navy moored on the Cromarty Firth, joined the Inver- gordon Mutiny over pay cut plans.

BlackRain
04-25-2004, 03:47 PM
There seems to be more to this story than what has been publicly reported. I have never heard of a nuclear crewman participating in "mutiny" let alone eleven crew members. Nuclear sub crews go through a battery of testing to screen applicants for reaction to stress and confined spaces. One crewman refusing maybe but eleven unlikely.

Fear from a sub hitting the bottom? Please!

Subs have intentionally hit the bottom (albeit in a purposefully manner) for decades without crews getting a yellow spine.

AOCBravo2004
04-25-2004, 03:53 PM
BlackRain: Tests are one thing, but you don't actually know how someone will react until the situation arises. And this was an UNINTENTIONAL grounding, who knows what these 11 sailors encountered. PTSD is a bitch, I know, I have it, I suffer from it.

DeltaWhisky58
04-25-2004, 05:41 PM
It takes a brave man to admit to PTSD.

Uninen
04-25-2004, 06:06 PM
It already "crashed" once, for £5 million worth of damage....... before you go blaiming it on those 11 sailors, just stop to think for a second...... Kursk like lose must not have been far in there.

ronin2172
04-25-2004, 08:41 PM
It already "crashed" once, for £5 million worth of damage....... before you go blaiming it on those 11 sailors, just stop to think for a second...... Kursk like lose must not have been far in there.

What r u trying to say, cause i can't fathom it. Are you trying to compare the two accidents? If u r, that's dumb. To compare an accidental grounding (no matter how traumatic) with a catostophic explosion in a torpedo room.....well no one should have to tell u there is no comparison.

Or are u trying to say that because of Kursk all submariners have the fear of sinking? Please say that u r not, because there have been a lot of sinkings just as devestaing as the Kursk, and those tragedies did not affect submariners in the least.

martinexsquaddie
04-26-2004, 04:06 AM
hitting the bottom hard enough to do 5 million quids worth of damage.
then when you get back onboard there's a fire :(
I think I'd be going this is one unlucky boat :(
mind you theres no way in hell you'd get me to do patrol in a SUB rofl

Steve Andrews
04-26-2004, 04:57 AM
It didn't happen like that in "Das Boot" !!

Mark Sman
04-26-2004, 05:59 AM
These guys will probably fulfill the rest of their service it sounds like, but I doubt they will sail on a sub again.

At least not without massive psychological counselling and retesting.

It must have been one hell of a situation if eleven sailors feel this way.

Last paragraph


CAROLYN IN A FIRST FOR NAVY

Apr 26 2004

By Richard Smith


CAPTAIN Carolyn Stait is set to make history by becoming the first woman commander of a Royal Navy base.

Naval chiefs will break with hundreds of years of tradition by giving her the post at nuclear submarine base Faslane on the Clyde this June.

Carolyn, 47, will be promoted to Commodore when she becomes chief of HM Naval Base Clyde, a target of anti-nuclear protesters.

Her 7,000 staff will be nearly all men because women are still not allowed to sail on Royal Navy submarines.

Single Carolyn, from Fareham, Hants, who was awarded the OBE in 1999, said: "I am thrilled."

This year Lieutenant Charlotte Atkinson, 32, became the first woman to command a Royal Navy warship, HMS Brecon.

SEA trials on repaired nuclear sub HMS Trafalgar finally got underway last night. They had been postponed after crew members suffered stress, possibly due to an earlier accident.

and


Repaired N-Sub Begins Sea Trial

By Russell Fallis, Scottish Press Association

A major sea trial of a repaired nuclear submarine got under way tonight, after being postponed when crew members became stressed, possibly due to a previous accident, the Navy said.

Eleven sailors raised their concerns with the captain of HMS Trafalgar – which had run aground off the Isle of Skye in November 2002 – just hours before the sub was due to begin its “shake-down” last night.

A Royal Navy spokesman said tonight: “Their worries gave the captain sufficient concern that he decided to land them for medical assessment and support, thus briefly postponing sailing.”

The results of medical examinations are still awaited, but it is thought the men, who recently sailed from the sub’s home port of Devonport, may be suffering delayed post-traumatic stress disorder.

The crew was also involved in a minor incident in recent weeks where diesel fumes briefly entered the sub’s ventilation system while at in Devonport dockyard.

The shake-down is where testing of the vessel and training of the crew is stepped up and the pressures on the sub’s company increased to prepare for operational deployment.

A spokesman said: “The boat was due to sail for shake-down last night after minor repairs at Faslane – subsequent to the major repair which followed the incident off Skye in 2002.

“Eleven members of the ship’s company made representations to the captain through their divisional system about stress relating to returning to sea.

“Their worries gave the captain sufficient concern that he decided to land them for medical assessment and support, thus postponing sailing.

“We got sufficient personnel to sail tonight and the ship’s shakedown is under way.

“The crew who were landed are fit to travel south for further assessment at the start of this week.”

A court martial hearing last month reprimanded Commander Robert Fancy and Commander Ian McGhie, both 39, for their part in causing HMS Trafalgar to ground on the seabed while on a training mission, causing damage costing £5 million.

The two pleaded guilty to a charge of negligence causing the grounding of the sub on November 6, 2002.

Naval prosecutor Lieutenant Commander Alison Towler said the sub, at a depth of 50 metres and travelling at 14.7 knots, ploughed into the seabed off a small island called Fladda-Chuain as the vessel changed direction, injuring three sailors and causing the entire submarine crew to fall over.

Mr Gently Benevolent
04-26-2004, 09:36 AM
I do know a guy who was a Sparky on a UK sub and he told me that if you had a big row with your old lady the day before you sailed and the officers found out about it then they would replace you and only take you back on when you got your **** sorted out.