Current pistol shooting stance...

[California Joe]

What is the currently accepted stance being taught or used by all the HSLD types? When I was a cop we were taught what was called a "Modified Weaver". Just curious......I don't pistol shoot much anymore but thought I'd ask and maybe find out what some of you pistoleros are comfortable with...:)

[LaoSexMachine]

I'm no way a HSLD guy but I found the feet shoulder width apart and square to the shooter more 'comfortable' then the Weaver stance. I practice a alot of quick draws and Mozambique drill when I go to the range. Just my civilian perspective. I also do alot of condition 3 to condition 1 and engage targets immediately.


EDIT: All 'Isosceles' stance
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/2773/rangepics005id9.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/8080/1000138fh6.jpg

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/33/1000111zj8.jpg

[Pook2]

When I did M9 qual I was taught the same way Zeke was taught, Feet shoulder width apart, shoulders square to the target.

[taekwonno]

The only former HSLD guy that I know tells me I should shoot isosceles, or at least some form of it, because body armor is covering my front, not my sides.







Doesn't matter, I suck no matter what stance I use.


Even crane stance.

[Rakki]

Hehe.. You need some Gun Kata!

[Pook2]

Yeah, that's what it's called, Isosceles.

I did horrible on my M9 qual, and I'd like to blame it on old worn out barrels, but I dunno, I'm probably just bad with pistols, we were shooting at 30 feet, and I barely qualified. I'm much better with rifles.

[Beowulf]

There are others more experienced than myself, but I sent you a PM.

Also to add to what I wrote in the pm, the stance I described allows you to shoot shotgun and rifle with minor adjustments.

[punchinout]

i guess i use a modified modern isosceles stance.


I'd like to blame it on old worn out barrels

i've had that experience with civilian 92's, don't know if it was the barrel but it was a range rental and it just threw rounds everywhere, we decided to trade it in for a beretta PX4 and it was sweet.

[Niels]

I'm not with the police or anything, but I use the Isosceles stance. I find it's easier to control the pistol that way.


I did horrible on my M9 qual, and I'd like to blame it on old worn out barrels, but I dunno, I'm probably just bad with pistols, we were shooting at 30 feet, and I barely qualified. I'm much better with rifles.
What do you need to do to qualify?

[LaoSexMachine]

i guess i use a modified modern isosceles stance.



i've had that experience with civilian 92's, don't know if it was the barrel but it was a range rental and it just threw rounds everywhere, we decided to trade it in for a beretta PX4 and it was sweet.

Must be a rental cause my Beretta is good to go.

[Pook2]

I'm not with the police or anything, but I use the Isosceles stance. I find it's easier to control the pistol that way.

What do you need to do to qualify?

We shot 10 rounds practice, then 30 rounds to qualify, I don't remember the exact criteria for qualifying, but I know you at least needed to put rounds on target. Some of my rounds didn't even hit the paper, and I was aiming dead on the center of the bullseye. The reason that I blame it on old worn out guns was because I consider myself a pretty good shooter, I did excellent on my M16 qual, and most pistols that I've shot in the civilian world I've done well with, but the two times that I did M9 qual here at VMI, I did terrible.

[0311dog]

I use the isosceles. Its IMHO easier, quicker, and more stable to transition from one target to another, from right to left or left to right. It just feels more balanced to index on one target to from another because you can pivot to either side and have your body, hips and shoulders, squared on target. Whereas using the weaver it seems more unbalanced . We try to encourage our shooter to use an isosceles or modified isosceles. Also, in a CQB enviroment using correct subgun or carbine stance, you're already in a form of an isosceles if you transition to your sidearm.

[22.5degrees]

From my experience and training the flavour of the month for combat pistol shooting is indeed an isosceles type stance. By squaring off with your target you achieve several things. Your armour if you're wearing any is in direct line with your threat. Your full attention to the threat is in play. That is your arms are evenly extended providing a symmetrical platform for both stability and recoil managment and both eyes in a natural forward looking orientation. This is done naturally when faced with any threat. I strongly doubt anyone is willing to argue or anticipate a fight while positioned a 1/4 or 1/2 turn from your threat. Its not natural and it doesn't offer any advantages. Remaining square to your threat also permits rapid motion in any direction unlike a true weaver or chapman stance which fail to provide any significant option for motion. A swuare stance tends to be a lot easier to achieve in confined spaces.

22.5

ETA: I alomost forgot; a square stance is excellent for transitioning. From either primary to secondary or vise versa.

[saBBBat]

It's funny, I went to a range last week and had trouble with a rental as well! I couldn't figure out why I sucked so bad at 7 meters. Apparently my stance is equally terrible after reading all of your posts, I was favoring my right arm.

I made a game of it by challenging my buddy to 25 rounds in sets of 5 on bullseye targets. It was the most fun I've had at a range in a long time (because I won by 3 points).

[Seraphim]

http://youtube.com/v/ysa50-plo48

Here you go.

[punchinout]

http://youtube.com/v/ysa50-plo48

Here you go.

god damn, Todd Jarrett is so fast, i've been watchin some of his IPSC matches and good lord. if i had the money and time, i'd love to do that. its crazy, he puts the entire magazine down range and it doesn't even look the gun is recoiling. i guess thats strong arms for ya and awesome control. INSANE!!!

[Seraphim]

Yeah I wish I was half as good as he is.
Also another thing about isosceles is that it is already your natural standing position.

PS

If any airsofters come in here and start spouting ****, I am going to lose it.

[punchinout]

Yeah I wish I was half as good as he is.

PS
If any airsofters come in here and start spouting ****, I am going to lose it.

x2!!! lol

god damn i've gotten lazy, i haven't been to the range in like a month, also...i need to get a pimped out 1911, iguess we are all allowed one. i just bought a sig 220 and now i need to go back to 1911's.

[English]

^ Awesome video, thanks for sharing that.

[ShotOver]

http://www.youtube.com/v/e8PRxF6lvHU&e

ADF 9mm Training

[Irish_11]

x2!!! lol

god damn i've gotten lazy, i haven't been to the range in like a month, also...i need to get a pimped out 1911, iguess we are all allowed one. i just bought a sig 220 and now i need to go back to 1911's.

you gotta branch out a bit... haha I need to work on my form ALOT, you've seen it there is no form. Thats what you get for being the only gun person in your family and teaching yourself to shoot p-)

[Roaming East]

The USAF tried to teach me isosceles when i qual'ed with the M9 but ive been shooting pistols since before the USAF was in my head so i still use modified Weaver. Shot expert too...

[mi35d]

I've had to explain several times to people on ranges that just because they can shoot fairly well with a rifle doesn't mean that skill translates to the pistol. Yes, sight alignment, breathing, etc. will be similar but there are large differences (other than the obvious!) that I end up having to teach every range day. I've found that proper grip and trigger pull is always the first step to improving scores.

Of course, its always fun to watch people who supposedly know what they're doing get pissed at the gun for not working as the slide sits locked to the rear after a reload drill...

Young sh1t in my OBC class couldn't understand that shooting was a skill like any other. He was all state, all sport, BMOC and yet couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 20 paces. In his mind, all he had to do was practice a bit and he could do as well as me because, "well, you're old and kinda fat." Explained that there was natural skill AND years of practice involved. He fired his five rounds, hit the target twice. I fired my five and made all five dead center.

[Laconian]

The video seraphim put up is pretty much how we teach our folks. We roll the shoulders forward a bit more, emphasize a wrist lock (not just thumb forward) support hand, and "crunch" the abs a bit more to help with recoil control. But that's just nit-picking. There is science behind it, and it works well for combat shooting.

CJ, when I first became a cop modified Weaver was the way to go, but now most (not all) survival shooting schools lean in the direction of a modified isoscleles.

[California Joe]

Thanks fellas, as I was telling Beo, when I think back to our initial range training with a retired Vietnam vet SF range officer we actually used a kind of modified isoceles sometimes, usually for the real close range/quick draw excercises but whenever we were shooting from any distance at all we were supposed to shoot with a modified weaver. The reasons outlined by most of you do make sense. I'll have to give that a try.

[LtVacan]

Yeah I wish I was half as good as he is.
Also another thing about isosceles is that it is already your natural standing position.

PS

If any airsofters come in here and start spouting ****, I am going to lose it.

I guess its time for you to lose it then. I play airsoft.

I have also been shooting for about 45 years, I'm an NRA certified pistol instructor and have completed more than 300 hours of professional tactical shooting training in the last 4 years.

While that does not make me a high speed anything, it more than qualifies me to answer this question. Isoceles, for all of the reasons stated above by others.

[Seraphim]

I guess its time for you to lose it then. I play airsoft.

I have also been shooting for about 45 years, I'm an NRA certified pistol instructor and have completed more than 300 hours of professional tactical shooting training in the last 4 years.

While that does not make me a high speed anything, it more than qualifies me to answer this question. Isoceles, for all of the reasons stated above by others.

Yes, but you are not spouting **** comparing your spring pistol or whatever to the real thing like many other airsofters have.

Read, comprehend, post.

[LtVacan]

I apologise if I misinterpreted your post. I am used to people on this site disparaging anyone that chooses airsoft as a recreation activity.

Airsoft is also a very useful training tool for force on force scenarios.

BTW, I use isoceles with my gas pistol too.

[tboy01]

I was always taught stand front on to the target when possible. This allows full use of your body armour. Roll shoulders foward, hunker down. Feet around shoulder width apart, knees over toes and shoulders over knees.

There are alot of modified stances going around to counter problems such as being a right -handed shooter and left eye dominant. But thats a whole other issue.

[Seraphim]

There are alot of modified stances going around to counter problems such as being a right -handed shooter and left eye dominant. But thats a whole other issue.

I have that problem, do you have any pointers. I just slightly squint my left eye until my right eye becomes dominant so I still have some depth perception.

[ShotOver]

I was always taught stand front on to the target when possible. This allows full use of your body armour. Roll shoulders foward, hunker down. Feet around shoulder width apart, knees over toes and shoulders over knees.

There are alot of modified stances going around to counter problems such as being a right -handed shooter and left eye dominant. But thats a whole other issue.

I gotta ask, was this from your military training? Such as the video I posted a couple posts up, or is this from Private PMC training.
Just curious

[Hollis]

I have that problem, do you have any pointers. I just slightly squint my left eye until my right eye becomes dominant so I still have some depth perception.

Not sure if it is what is being done today, you can train your eyes, better than squinting is using a eye patch, the dominent is open but can not see, you force yourself to use the other eye, sort of re-training it.

At pistol ranges, I don't think range estimation is important.

[Young-kiwi]

I'm a compettion pistol shooter, Not great by any means, but have been doing it a while, and I'll put my 2 cents in and place my vote towards Isosceles.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/young-kiwi/Standing_IPSC.jpg

A casual, not great, but ok 50Metre target
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/young-kiwi/standing_IPSC_TARGET.jpg

[tboy01]

I gotta ask, was this from your military training? Such as the video I posted a couple posts up, or is this from Private PMC training.
Just curious

PMC days mate. I was lucky enough to work with ex-Rangers and 18series guys. PLus I scored a range a few times with some HSLD type dudes.

Unfortunately the Aus military is miles behind the yanks when it comes to pistol shooting.


I have that problem, do you have any pointers. I just slightly squint my left eye until my right eye becomes dominant so I still have some depth perception

Seraphim. PM me with the exact problem. Then tell me where its throwing your group. I see if I can help.

[ShotOver]

PMC days mate. I was lucky enough to work with ex-Rangers and 18series guys. PLus I scored a range a few times with some HSLD type dudes.

Unfortunately the Aus military is miles behind the yanks when it comes to pistol shooting.

Thanks mate, I appreciate the answer. I was thinking the ADF would be (with the exception of 4RAR and SASR of course) lacking in two-way range pistol shooting experience.

[Sabre]

Coming from the UK where handguns are only owned in Nottingham, I have no clue as to what the shooting positions are called.

I have been taught that the best stance is a boxer's stance, similar to a rifle shooting stance. For a right handed shooter, this would be left foot a comfortable step forward, right arm extended and left arm bent. This allows the shooter to 'pivot' his right arm with his left to engage targets at multiple angles. The boxer's stance enables the shooter to quickly turn to engage targets 360 degrees around him and also allows him to quickly adopt the kneeling position for stoppage drills.

I understand the point regarding body armour and stability for the 'square on' stance, however it seems that this stance would severely restrict your arcs and make turning/kneeling much more difficult. That's just my impression though. What matters is that the rounds hit the target before the target's rounds hit you or your team. How that is done is up to the individual.

[Sabre]

your forgetting about certain areas of london

Dont hang out our dirty laundry Kev! p-)

[Pook2]

http://www.youtube.com/v/wR02Iz0jdpk

[Jippo]

Also I try make my life simple by using similar stances in all forms of fighting. Hand, knife, pistol & rifle from almost the same stance.

Works for me.


-jippo

[LtVacan]

I have that problem, do you have any pointers. I just slightly squint my left eye until my right eye becomes dominant so I still have some depth perception.



The eye squint will work, but you may want to try canting your pistol to the left about 45 degrees to better line the pistol up with your dominant left eye. Then squint your right eye a little. It takes a little practice, but I have seen this work great for right handed-left eye dominant shooters.

[sergey31]

I shoot weaver stance and it works fine for me.
We shoot every month and you only get bonus ($) if you shoot perfect score. Two courses, 100 rounds and timed.
It's been working just fine for me and they way I see it is if works why experiment with something else.
Our instructor is a retired LAPD SWAT and several other LE retired personnel.

[Geezah]

Tag as this is a great read..............

[scrybe]

Tag? lol, arfcom addict.

[Hunterhr]

This thread reminds me how badly I need to scrape together some money for a pistol course...

[jagermeister]

modern isosceles is they way to go....or what ever works for ya.

[Durandal]

Tag? lol, arfcom addict.

rofl

That was funny...and true.

[Durandal]

This thread reminds me how badly I need to scrape together some money for a pistol course...

This thread reminds me that its about Spring Cleaning time down on our range. Warm weather is coming...

[Hollis]

This thread reminds me that its about Spring Cleaning time down on our range. Warm weather is coming...

No kidding who wants to shoot in sub zero and 45 mph wind. Time for winter reloading to pay off.

[Hunterhr]

No kidding who wants to shoot in sub zero and 45 mph wind. Time for winter reloading to pay off.

I'm just praying that the snow will be down to a reasonable level so I can get some shooting done when I go home for spring break.

I remember shooting once when it was -15 outside. Pop off a magazine and run back inside the house we were at to thaw out your fingers...

[Jippo]

I remember shooting once when it was -15 outside. Pop off a magazine and run back inside the house we were at to thaw out your fingers...

We had a competition last weekend at -20C. On the last stage we had combined shotgun & pistol, and I couldn't reload the shotgun with gloves on as thumb got constantly stuck on the feeding ramp. I decided to shoot the stage without gloves. I did ok, but I had to ask the referee to release the bolt so I could get the gun uncocked. I simply couldn't push the bolt release anymore as my fingers stopped working by that time. Good splits though during the stage.


-jippo