Build A Military

[DanteXavier]

I like all these new "build your military' threads, so i decided to make one. I'd been playing it all out in my head for quite some time, but I'm sure you'd all be way better at putting this type of idea together than i am.

All right, here goes...

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6143/botswanadb6.jpg

You're the new Minister of Defence for Botswana. It is your goal to modernize and increase the effectiveness of the Botswana Defence Force(BDF).

Botswana's Position: Lanlocked, located in Southern Africa. Bordered by South Africa to the South, Zimbabawe to the East, namibia to the West, and Zambia to the North. Botswana has a small, but very professional and well trained force. It is, however, at a numerical disadvantage with most of it's neighbors, and border security is key especially to the east with Zimbabawe.

In 2000, there were also small dispute with Namibia over the possible harboring of insurgents on the northwestern border. Botswana has a growing eco tourism industry, which is key to diversifying it's economy(much of Botswana's wealth comes from Diamonds and other precious gems). Anti Poaching operations are key to sustaining this growth and ensuring a safe future for Botswana's economy.

Major defense-related issues for consideration:

Border Security to the Northwest with Namibia.

Border Security with Zimbabwe to the East, also to help stem the flow of illegal immigrants from that nation.

Anti Poaching Missions within Botswana itself. Other than this, there is a low threat of internal conflict, but anti poaching operations are key to the growth of the already flourishing eco tourism industry in Botswana, which is key to future growth of the economy.

While violent crime is not particularly high in botswana, army units do do regular patrols in order to keep things this way. these patrols so far have had positive results.

There is a serious numerical disadvantage when compared with most of Botswana's neighbors, save for Namibia and Zambia.

Botswana's Domestic Situation: Botswana has always had a very strong democracy. It's corruption ratings have been consistently low(37th lowest in the world, which is actually lower than places like Italy, believe it or not). The ethnically driven internecine conflict that has plagued many other African nations has not taken root in Botswana.
Overall, aside from poaching incursions in botswana's wild areas, there is little conflict within the country to worry about. 30% of the population is below the poverty line. It should be noted that many of these citizens are subsistence farmers, and thers are illegal immigrants from Zimbabawe and, in some cases, Angola.

The Botswana Defence Force is very well respected by it's citizens, and a lot of prestige comes with being a member. Recruits are picked selectively, with educational merits being stressed often. The military is also well paid, and regularly paid, with many members being able to live comfortable off of their salaries.

Botswana's Foreign Relations:

Relations with the USA are very strong. Many BDF officers are sent to the US and Canada for training.

Relations most of Europe are good, but relations with Britain are the strongest of the lot.

Relations with South Africa are good and still improving.

Relations with Zimbabawe are strained, in part due to Botswana's stronger relations to the US and Europe, these coinciding with Mugabe's accelerated "look east" policies. Zimbabawe is arming up, buying new fighters and helicopters from China, and also new armored equipment as well. There is also dispute over the border, with large numbers of illegal immigrants heading across to Botswana.

Relations with Namibia are getting better, and negotiations for cooperative operations are likely in the near future.

Relations with China are cordial.

Relations with Russia are neutral; Botswana has been looking recently to purchase more in the way of Western Equipment due to it's strengthened ties with The U.S. and Western European nations. As a result, it will purchase eastern equipment, but generally only as a second option.

Relations with Zambia are strained a bit, partly due to border security issues. Many poachers have launched incursions into Botswana using Zambia as a launching point. Negotiations are underway.

Botswana's Order of Battle:

I was unable to attain the exact names and locations of botswana's specific military Brigades, but i do have some basic info.

Number of Troops: 12,000

The BDF consists of one armoured brigade, two infantry brigades, four infantry battalions, two armoured artillery, one engineer regiment and one commando regiment.

The armored brigade is based in the capital of Gaborone.

The botswanan special forces are equivalent to US infantry in training, although they may even be slightly higher in quality.

Army Issues:

Numerical inferiority when compared to neighbors.

Army Equipment:

FV101 Scorpion (incl variants) light tank - 36
SK-105 Keurrassier light tank - 50
V-150 Commando - 12
BTR-60 armoured personnel carrier - 30
FV103 Spartan armoured personnel carrier - 6
RAM-V-2 armoured personnel carrier - 8
L118 Light Gun 105 mm towed howitzer - 12
Model 56 pack towed artillery (105 mm) 6
Soltam towed artillery (155 mm)
Mortar (81 mm) - 12
M-43 Mortar (120 mm) - 6
TOW anti-tank missile launchers - 6
Carl Gustav recoilless rifle 84 mm - 30
M167 Vulcan air defence gun 20 mm - 7
SA-7 Grail portable surface-to-air missile launchers - 12
SA-16 portable surface-to-air missile launchers - 10
Javelin Surface to Air Missile launchers - 6

The Army would like to Pursue a policy of modernization, in order to reach a laevel of capability that will help to balance it's numerical inferiority when compared with it's neighbors. This would include replacing some of th older equipment seen here with new Armored vehicles, light tanks, and hopefull at least a few Main Battle Tanks.

It should be noted that Botswana attempted to acquire 50(German Made) Leopard 1 MBTs from the Netherlands in 1996, but this sale was shot down by Germany.

I am unaware of any army helicopters in service. I'm having trouble finding the listings as to whether or not they have any, although as of now, it's looking as if they might not.
If you'd like, you can assume that there are none, and make plans to acquire some as well. There are a few within the Air Wing already.

Botswana's Air Force:

http://www.scramble.nl/bw.htm

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9785/bwmilmapzl7.gif

Botswana's Air force, as of now, includes the following aircraft:

CF-5A (http://www.answers.com/topic/f-5-freedom-fighter) fighter - 10 CF-5B operational trainer - 3 C-130B (http://www.answers.com/topic/c-130-hercules) tactical transport - 3 CN-235 (http://www.answers.com/topic/casa-cn-235) medium tactical transport - 2 Skyvan 3M (http://www.answers.com/topic/shorts-sc-7-skyvan) transport - 2 (Just Retired)BN-2A/B Defender (http://www.answers.com/topic/britten-norman-islander) light transport - 10 Gulfstream IV (http://www.answers.com/topic/gulfstream-g400-g450) VIP transport - 1 BAe 125 (http://www.answers.com/topic/british-aerospace-bae-125)-800 VIP transport - 1 CN-212 (http://www.answers.com/topic/casa-c-212-aviocar) VIP transport - 2 O-2A (http://www.answers.com/topic/o-2-skymaster) - reconnaissance - 9 PC-7 (http://www.answers.com/topic/pilatus-pc-7) basic trainer - 10 Cessna 152 (http://www.answers.com/topic/cessna-152) trainer - 2 (Just retired)AS-350B (http://www.answers.com/topic/eurocopter-ecureuil) light helicopter - 4 Bell 412 (http://www.answers.com/topic/bell-412) utility helicopter (1 Bell 412EP is used for VIP) - 6 Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/botswana-defence-force-air-wing

Order of Battle:


Thebephatshwa / Molepolole (FBTP)

Z1 Air Transpot Squadron- BN-2A Islander
Z7 Flight Training Squadron- Pilatus PC7
Z10 Air Transport Squadron- C-130B, C212-300. and CN235-100
Z21 Helicopter Squadron- AS350BA and Bell 412SP
Z23 Helicopter Squadron- AS350B3
Z28 tactical fighter Squadron- Canadair BF-5A/D


Gaborone- Sir Seretse Khama International Airport (FBSK)


VIP Flt VIP Transport Squadron- BAe200, Bell 412EP and Gulfstream IV


Francistown (FBFT)

Z3Air Transport Squadron- O-2A
Z12 Air Transport Squadron- BN-2A/B

Botswana's Air Wing sees modernization as it's main goal, and it may require an increase in numbers to counter border threats. Botswana must come up with more answers to the Zimbabawean military buildup, and they should at least be able to look a little better when compared to to South Africa's Air Arm(while not needing to match them, obviously).
The goal is to eventually create an air arm that surpasses others in the region in terms of air warfare capability, save for maybe the South African's(Botswana probably isn't going to be able to afford something to match them).

Botswana's Navy: They don't have one; no access to the sea.

The Rules: Reform and modernize the military so that it can better cope with modern threats and so that it can increase it's effectiveness. Your budget is US $450 million for new stuff, out of a total of $850 million total budget for the military. You have 10 years.

You are free to expand the military and reorganize it if you want to incorporate new equipment and/or strategies.
Chinese equipment is unfavorable, and Russian equipment is as well. Western Equipment is the most prefered, due to Botswana's close ties with western nations. The US is willing to offer surplus equipment, as are most European nations. The US and western Europe wish for Botswana to become an ally of theirs in Africa, and to date Botswana has participated in several peacekeeping missions(Somalia and Lesotho most recently) and will look to continue doing so in the near future. They could be valuable(along with South Africa) in the case that Zimbabwe becomes a threat in the region.

This is my first try at one of these, so if you see any major mistakes let me know:)

[schwarz]

Wow, how many of these threads are there going to be???...........

[DanteXavier]

Wow, how many of these threads are there going to be???...........

I dunno, I knew there were already a few, but it seemed like fun and I'd always wanted to make one.

[schwarz]

I dunno, I knew there were already a few, but it seemed like fun and I'd always wanted to make one.

Its cool, whatever floats your boat.

[Ordie]

My number #1 national security issue is HIV/AIDS. 1 in 3 Botswanans are infected with HIV/AIDS. Without treatment or a cure the country's population and social fabric is at risk.

Therefore instead of modernization, I would set up a policy of providing free Antiretroviral drugs to help combat the effects of AIDS. Brazil was the first country to do this over the objections of pharmecitial corporations.

[DanteXavier]

My number #1 national security issue is HIV/AIDS. 1 in 3 Botswanans are infected with HIV/AIDS. Without treatment or a cure the country's population and social fabric is at risk.

Therefore instead of modernization, I would set up a policy of providing free Antiretroviral drugs to help combat the effects of AIDS. Brazil was the first country to do this over the objections of pharmecitial corporations.

I know all about the 36% infection rate. Trust me. However, with this thread, I'm just going by a purely military perspective. As it is today, Botswana's middle income status has led to it not receiving the same amount of aid that most other developing nations get. This means they end up paying 80% of the AIDS treatment fees, and it is straining them. They're already implementing the solutions you're suggesting, and asa result, the AIDS rates are starting to decline slightly.

However, this is my scenario, and in it, I've assumed that AIDS has become less of an issue and that the government can focus on other things (like defence, for example). In reality, such a scenario is probably not going to become real until about 2025 when AIDS rates will probably be down below 20% or less. But for now, we can assume this. It's just for fun.p-)

[Ordie]

Okay in that case I'll play along.


Give me some time to gather notes and research.

[DanteXavier]

So, is anyone going to try?

[Ghelp]

Buy all used.

25 Rooikats

18 G-5 artillery

Hundreds of mortars from 60mm to 120mm.

12 Huey's

20 Mi-17's

10 Super Tucano's

As many used M-113's as possible

[DanteXavier]

Buy all used.

25 Rooikats

18 G-5 artillery

Hundreds of mortars from 60mm to 120mm.

12 Huey's

20 Mi-17's

10 Super Tucano's

As many used M-113's as possible

That sounds like a pretty cool startp-)

About the Mi-17s, though: do you think that a blackhawk could do as good a job as they can? Are blackhawks overly expensive, or would it be possible to get some cheaper surplus models?

[Ghelp]

Used LG1 MkII from Western stocks 45.
http://www.panzerbaer.de/guns/pix/LG1_MkII_29.jpg

For small arms keep it to Ak-47/Rpg-7/PKM.

Tow launchers and missiles from Western stocks.

Have most of the Armour and Apc's scrapped or sold for metal.

Buy used/new EE-11's from Latin American stocks.

Used Mirage-5 Elkans from Chilean stocks 6.

[Ghelp]

That sounds like a pretty cool startp-)

About the Mi-17s, though: do you think that a blackhawk could do as good a job as they can? Are blackhawks overly expensive, or would it be possible to get some cheaper surplus models?

Blackhawks new are pretty expensive and cost more to operate then the Mi-17.You could possibly buy used Blackhawks from either the US/Colombia or any other big users of the helicopter.But would be much.Stick to the trusty and robust Mi-17.Spare parts all over the world are plentiful.

[perdurabo]

That sounds like a pretty cool startp-)

About the Mi-17s, though: do you think that a blackhawk could do as good a job as they can? Are blackhawks overly expensive, or would it be possible to get some cheaper surplus models?
why would you want replace heavy helo with midle sized helo?
just compare:
payload
Mi8 24 troops, rear ramp
UH-60 14 troops, no rear ramp
you see the diffrence? H-92 is US counterpart of Mi8 family
not to mention price is the key here.

[DanteXavier]

Blackhawks new are pretty expensive and cost more to operate then the Mi-17.You could possibly buy used Blackhawks from either the US/Colombia or any other big users of the helicopter.But would be much.Stick to the trusty and robust Mi-17.Spare parts all over the world are plentiful.

Sounds like a pretty good idea.p-) Where would they be bought from? Are there any particular sellers you have in mind?

[DanteXavier]

why would you want replace heavy helo with midle sized helo?
just compare:
payload
Mi8 24 troops, rear ramp
UH-60 14 troops, no rear ramp
you see the diffrence? H-92 is US counterpart of Mi8 family
not to mention price is the key here.

Good points, good points, you're right. I hadn't considered that stuff.:)

Good thing I asked you guys.

[Ghelp]

The Mi-17 series can be bought from Russia.If you want to go even cheaper the Turks would be willing to let them go or Eastern European countries looking to get rid of them.

[DanteXavier]

Used LG1 MkII from Western stocks 45.
http://www.panzerbaer.de/guns/pix/LG1_MkII_29.jpg

For small arms keep it to Ak-47/Rpg-7/PKM.

Tow launchers and missiles from Western stocks.

Have most of the Armour and Apc's scrapped or sold for metal.

Buy used/new EE-11's from Latin American stocks.

Used Mirage-5 Elkans from Chilean stocks 6.

I like the idea about the Mirage's, something I hadn't considered. With those, and the F-5s that are already there, there would be 19 total fighters. Is this good enough, or do you think there may be some other cheap mirage's on the market someplace?

As for the AK's, that's another good idea. Just wondering: are G36s a lot more expensive?

[Ghelp]

I like the idea about the Mirage's, something I hadn't considered. With those, and the F-5s that are already there, there would be 19 total fighters. Is this good enough, or do you think there may be some other cheap mirage's on the market someplace?

As for the AK's, that's another good idea. Just wondering: are G36s a lot more expensive?


You can probably get alot of used Mirage series from Latin American stocks that are being phased out and for a good price.G-36's are more expensive.Just stick with the trusty Ak series.

If Botswana has good relations with Israel even get some of the Mirages upgraded.

[DanteXavier]

You can probably get alot of used Mirage series from Latin American stocks that are being phased out and for a good price.G-36's are more expensive.Just stick with the trusty Ak series.

Yeah, well, it's just that I have this weird thing with the AKs...everytime I see them I think "renegade militia/insurgents"...I dunno why, maybe it's just the way they look...
Are there any upgraded versions(minus the wood) or any equally cheap, but more modern models?


If Botswana has good relations with Israel even get some of the Mirages upgraded.

Yes, a good idea. Botswana has strong relations with the USA, so I don't see why they couldn't get along with israel and get those upgrades.:)

[exarmyguard]

First, I would make myself King. Then create a Palace guard. One section of the guard would be ceremonial and made up of loyal subjects. The other section would be all ex-Israeli commandos to guard my royal a$$. Give the ceremonial guards toy guns and the Israelis any weapons they damn wanted.

The Regular army would be trained to SOuth African standards by South African trainers. All subjects get cumpulsory training for 3 years. Depending on my alliances, I would by from eastern europe primarily. AK-type rifles in 7.62, PK GPMG's, 12.7mm and 14.5mm Russian heavies, RPG's, BTR-80's, Mi-171's, AN-2 and AN-32 transports, L-59 Albatros aircraft and have a light aircraft production facility within the country for Cessna type trainers and light attack planes.

I would equip them as a light infantry and medium infantry units. They would be trained as a defensive force using hit and run tactics. One unit would be trained as an airborne capable recon unit with ability to sabotage behind enemy lines. ANother unit would be an elite ranger unit that would have the alternate mission as OPFOR to bring up the standards of the line units.

Have the unit bases be FAR away from the civilians, and the women especially. It would be daily running and lots of salt peter to calm them down. Incentives for training would be monetary. Best runners or atheltes gets more money in his paycheck, which would be deposited in an account they couldn't get a hold of until after their training was up.

[Ghelp]

Yeah, well, it's just that I have this weird thing with the AKs...everytime I see them I think "renegade militia/insurgents"...I dunno why, maybe it's just the way they look...
Are there any upgraded versions(minus the wood) or any equally cheap, but more modern models?



Yes, a good idea. Botswana has strong relations with the USA, so I don't see why they couldn't get along with israel and get those upgrades.:)

Not at all.Alot of proffesional militaries use the Ak series from Poland to Russia and US contractors in Iraq.Even on occasion UK and US special forces.Botswana should go with the Ak-47 7.62x39 ammo is cheap and plentiful especially in Africa and can train even a child on it.Some models of the Ak.You can get 5.56 NATO and other types.
That is good you can get some of the Mirages upgraded and they will have alot of life left in them.

PKM
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n253/G-Capo333/Weapon%20systems/pkm.jpg

Ak series

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n253/G-Capo333/Weapon%20systems/3242.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n253/G-Capo333/Weapon%20systems/untitled.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n253/G-Capo333/Weapon%20systems/74.jpg

[DanteXavier]

Ak series

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n253/G-Capo333/Weapon%20systems/3242.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n253/G-Capo333/Weapon%20systems/untitled.jpg

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n253/G-Capo333/Weapon%20systems/74.jpg

Ah, now there's what I'm talking about.p-) Those look good, great idea there.

This said, what do we do about MBTs and special forces? exarmyguard up there made a good point about the palace guard(although i don't wanna be a king or anything). That got me thinking about maybe creating a small elite force(50 men or so? 100?) of troops to take care of any major issues in the country and handle any major standoffs in terms of criminality, or maybe renegade groups that try anything(like the poachers), and also to act as a sort of presidential guard.

What should I give them? I do know that many special forces groups do get special/upgraded equipment. Should i consider this here to? Or are there other options?

Also, Botswana did try to purchase some leopard I's a decade ago. Should they try that again?

[exarmyguard]

Its good to be king, my friend. :)

[Ghelp]

Maybe create a small force of the best elite troops that can act as a Presidential or in ExArmyGuards the Kings guard.Maybe arm them with Ak with better sights and accesories.

Are Botswana's Leo-1's still operated.How many where bought.

[DanteXavier]

Maybe create a small force of the best elite troops that can act as a Presidential or in ExArmyGuards the Kings guard.Maybe arm them with Ak with better sights and accesories.

Are Botswana's Leo-1's still operated.How many where bought.

Well, they never got the Leos-they tried to buy them from the Netherlands(around 50, if i remember correctly), but Germany shot down the sale.
Should they try buying some more?

[Lord Of War]

Are Botswana's Leo-1's still operated.How many where bought.



10 January 1996

Botswana has procured a package of second hand defence equipment from the Netherlands including Leopard 1-V main battle tanks.

31 July 1996

The sale of 54 Royal Netherlands Army Leopard 1-V MBTs to Botswana has been halted by a German manufacturers' veto. German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel has voiced concern over the stability of southern Africa. Leopards cannot be resold to a non-NATO country without German consent.

http://www.haaland.info/leopard1/world/

[DanteXavier]

The sale of 54 Royal Netherlands Army Leopard 1-V MBTs to Botswana has been halted by a German manufacturers' veto. German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel has voiced concern over the stability of southern Africa. Leopards cannot be resold to a non-NATO country without German consent.
http://www.haaland.info/leopard1/world/

You see, this is the lamest part. botswana is the stablest country in Africa. it's corru[ption level is lower than many nations in Europe. If you're going to veto a sale like that, then at least come up with a better reason for it!:bash:

Anyway, Ghelp, I came up with an idea recently. The Mirage 5s are good, but would it also be a good idea to acquire a dedicated interceptor as well? There are many Mirage F-1s available on the used market. I've heard that South Africa has a couple dozen of them sitting in storage(Gabon recently purchased 3 of them). Could Botswana purchase maybe 10 of them, and then utilize the mirage IIIs as well?

Or, maybe if South Africa retires it's Cheetahs....

[perdurabo]

If Leo1s are not availble then why not go for AMX-30, or better T-64 or T-72?
Maybe instead of buying mirage go for A4 with newest israeli modernization? or Jaguar? small country has small budget, so they need something that is cheap to fly but still has punch

[Lord Of War]

If Leo1s are not availble then why not go for AMX-30, or better T-64 or T-72?

IIRC Russia had never really exported the T-64 to any country (Ukraine is an expection, however these were inherated from the USSR after the fall of the Iron Curtian) and I doubt they would sell them to a country that has somewhat of neutral relations with.

[Razvodnik]

To increase the air superiority i would by some old F5 Tiger from the US and handle them over to IAI for modernisation. In an African war i see more need for CAS Aircraft then for an air superiority fighter. So i would buy some Super Tucano from Embraer and one Embraer145 AEW System.

M Mi171 is pretty good bird, ugly as hell but it don´t have to make it up on a model contest. The price is ok and he can absorbes pretty much of Small Arms Fire. I would put them in a Multi Role, as for troop transport so for CAS with unguided rockets. Maybe it would be good to buy some Mi24 for CAS but i don´t think it is a immediatly buying. In the War Case you can buy it along with Ukrainian pilots or you have a talk with Executive Outcomes in Durban.

I don´t think that M113 would be very useful with a small budget. I would customize different civil trucks on 6x6 or 8x8 (Tatra, Kamaz) chassis to gun trucks. It could satisfy the need for troop protection, mobility and fire support. In combination with Fast Attack Vehicles i.e. the Mercedes G-Class (FAV of the USMC) or LandRover Defender you have a cheap mobility in combination with low mainentance costs.

If u wan´t good AKs buy from the Serbs, my cousin as a Croatian Special Police Member, used a Zastava M70AB2 (very popular in Iraq) during the whole war and it was more reliabele then a FN-Fal or a G3! It has also the option to fire rifle mounted grenade´s. The RPG´s i would keep in duty, maybe buy some new grenades from Israel with a better tank breaching capability.

Tanks i would by old Russian or Ukrainian equipment (T72) and make a modernisation in Croatia to the M84A4 standard (Laser Optics & Stuff). By the way you could buy some new kevlar vests & helmets for troop protection when you are already in Croatia :). Maybe you get some HS2000 pistols for the officers and the police.

[Ironsight06]

IMO 450mil is way too much. But here we go again:

Army

Sell BTR-60's, V-150's and RAM APC's (+2mil)
Sell Scorpions and Spartans (+5mil?)
Acquire 150 Reva 4x4 APC's (-20mil)
Upgrade SK-150's (-25mil)
Acquire 50 surplus M113's for the Armored brigade upgraded with ERA (-50mil)
Acquire Stinger MANPADS and Avenger stations (-20mil)
Acquire additional L-118's (-10mil)
Acquire Denel Vektor 81mm Mortars (-10mil)
Acquire additional TOW stations (-20mil)
Airforce

Acquire 10 additional surplus CF-5A's (-20mil)
Acquire 2 additional surplus C-130's (-2mil)
Acquire 15 Super tucano's (-30mil)
Acquire 20 HAL Dhruv's for LUH, Attack and Recon (-20mil)I think this should do the trick for 195mil. No need for super expensive MBT's and fighter aircraft, these should be able to match the equipment of neighbouring countries.

[exarmyguard]

You guys like to think in terms of toys. I think more in how the soldiers will be trained. Also, Botswana boys ain't European boys. Computers would probably be an oddity to most of them. I could see the merit in a small cadre of smart soldiers with advanced radar, attack helicopters, and aircraft within the air force. Though I would keep them close to the palace.

[Ghelp]

IronSight I don't think the Super Tucano's would be 30 million USD for 15 of them.For 25 with 1 simulator it was 250 million USD.

http://www.defesanet.com.br/embraer/super_tucano_colombia7_e.htm

[Ghelp]

You guys like to think in terms of toys. I think more in how the soldiers will be trained. Also, Botswana boys ain't European boys. Computers would probably be an oddity to most of them. I could see the merit in a small cadre of smart soldiers with advanced radar, attack helicopters, and aircraft within the air force. Though I would keep them close to the palace.

Hire some mercenaries :)

[Hellfish]

Honestly, I don't see a problem with Botswana's military right now. Capable enough to deal with nearly all potential threats, save an all out invasion by South Africa. Ironsight has some good ideas, though.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Contract the MilPhot.net coup factory/think tank to design and run a coup in every country that borders mine.

Once they become lackey states, then i'll co-opt their militarys to defend and secure my battle space.

p-)

[DanteXavier]

IMO 450mil is way too much. But here we go again:

Yeah, but in this scenario, i've basically "assumed" that AIDS has become less of a problem. As a result, economic productivity is higher than it normally is, and thuse they have more money overall, hence a higher budget. In reality, the number would probably be only about $250 mil, but this is just for funp-)


Army


Sell BTR-60's, V-150's and RAM APC's (+2mil)
Sell Scorpions and Spartans (+5mil?)
Acquire 150 Reva 4x4 APC's (-20mil)
Upgrade SK-150's (-25mil)
Acquire 50 surplus M113's for the Armored brigade upgraded with ERA (-50mil)
Acquire Stinger MANPADS and Avenger stations (-20mil)
Acquire additional L-118's (-10mil)
Acquire Denel Vektor 81mm Mortars (-10mil)
Acquire additional TOW stations (-20mil)Airforce


Acquire 10 additional surplus CF-5A's (-20mil)
Acquire 2 additional surplus C-130's (-2mil)
Acquire 15 Super tucano's (-30mil)
Acquire 20 HAL Dhruv's for LUH, Attack and Recon (-20mil)
I think this should do the trick for 195mil. No need for super expensive MBT's and fighter aircraft, these should be able to match the equipment of neighbouring countries.

Remember, this is just for fun. You've got another $200 mil to use, don't hold back.p-) Act as if you do have all that money available, and show what you'd do with it.

BTW, doesn't Zimbabawe have some older russian tanks? If anything, they're gonna get them from China soon. What do we do about those?

[DanteXavier]

You guys like to think in terms of toys. I think more in how the soldiers will be trained. Also, Botswana boys ain't European boys. Computers would probably be an oddity to most of them. I could see the merit in a small cadre of smart soldiers with advanced radar, attack helicopters, and aircraft within the air force. Though I would keep them close to the palace.

Well, the good news is that Botswana has a relatively small military, and compared to most other African countries, it's advanced economically. Thus, it'd be easier to create an army full of smarter soldiers with advanced radars, and to train them as if they were those "European Boys"(in other words, give them some computer trainingp-) ).

[DanteXavier]

If Leo1s are not availble then why not go for AMX-30, or better T-64 or T-72?
Maybe instead of buying mirage go for A4 with newest israeli modernization? or Jaguar? small country has small budget, so they need something that is cheap to fly but still has punch

A Jaguar squadron for ground attack purposes wouldn't be a bad idea. Do you have any particular sellers in mind?

[DanteXavier]

To increase the air superiority i would by some old F5 Tiger from the US and handle them over to IAI for modernisation. In an African war i see more need for CAS Aircraft then for an air superiority fighter. So i would buy some Super Tucano from Embraer and one Embraer145 AEW System.

Not a bad idea:)


M Mi171 is pretty good bird, ugly as hell but it don´t have to make it up on a model contest. The price is ok and he can absorbes pretty much of Small Arms Fire. I would put them in a Multi Role, as for troop transport so for CAS with unguided rockets. Maybe it would be good to buy some Mi24 for CAS but i don´t think it is a immediatly buying. In the War Case you can buy it along with Ukrainian pilots or you have a talk with Executive Outcomes in Durban.

Nope, no ukrainian pilots. No offense to them, but if there's gonna be a war involving Botswanan forces, it's gonna involve botswanan pilots. We'll take the aircrews for the initial training of the aircrews, but come time for battle, it'll be Botswanan's flying the things.


I don´t think that M113 would be very useful with a small budget. I would customize different civil trucks on 6x6 or 8x8 (Tatra, Kamaz) chassis to gun trucks. It could satisfy the need for troop protection, mobility and fire support. In combination with Fast Attack Vehicles i.e. the Mercedes G-Class (FAV of the USMC) or LandRover Defender you have a cheap mobility in combination with low mainentance costs.

Good idea with the Defenders, i was already thinking about some british Wolves or Defenders similar to the ones used by the British army.


If u wan´t good AKs buy from the Serbs, my cousin as a Croatian Special Police Member, used a Zastava M70AB2 (very popular in Iraq) during the whole war and it was more reliabele then a FN-Fal or a G3! It has also the option to fire rifle mounted grenade´s. The RPG´s i would keep in duty, maybe buy some new grenades from Israel with a better tank breaching capability.

Tanks i would by old Russian or Ukrainian equipment (T72) and make a modernisation in Croatia to the M84A4 standard (Laser Optics & Stuff). By the way you could buy some new kevlar vests & helmets for troop protection when you are already in Croatia :). Maybe you get some HS2000 pistols for the officers and the police.

Good ideas, especially with the pistol.:)

[Jackal01400]

Training is essential for any effective force. Being that relations with the United States are good I would attempt to send Senior NCOs and Officers to train with the U.S. Army and Marines possibly also with SOC. Study/Observe activities and exercises preformed in both Army and Marine basic training and ait. With the knowledge recieved from thier experience with the US, they reform basic training and ait with the goal of producing a more effective and better trained soldier. Increase phyical fitness, put more money into training exercises and so on.

[Ironsight06]

IronSight I don't think the Super Tucano's would be 30 million USD for 15 of them.For 25 with 1 simulator it was 250 million USD.

http://www.defesanet.com.br/embraer/super_tucano_colombia7_e.htm
Yeah to be honest I have no idea how much the Tucano's are. I had the figure of 2mil each in my head but that was probably just a trainer without fancy stuff.


BTW, doesn't Zimbabawe have some older russian tanks? If anything, they're gonna get them from China soon. What do we do about those?
TOW's and SK-105's should be able to deal with those.

[Ironsight06]

I can see a big role for the Reva's. They would be excellent for patrol, especially in remote area's with the protection they need.

Reva variants:
Reva APC - regular armored personnel carrier (replacement for the BTR's)
Reva Command - Should replace the Spartan APC's
Reva Ambulance - Ambulance variant
Reva Patrol - special patrol vehicle with small one-man turret (replacement for the RAM's)
Reva AT - TOW missile launcher added similair to humvee's with TOW's
Reva AA - vehicle with instead of the back cab an AVENGER station

They should be easy to acquire and not expensive because they are manufactured in SA, so shipment of big amounts shouldn't be a problem.

[DanteXavier]

TOW's and SK-105's should be able to deal with those.

Sounds good enough. If that'll take care of it, then that's ok.

[Ironsight06]

Sounds good enough. If that'll take care of it, then that's ok.
I am pretty sure it will. I think Robbie's most modern armour is a handfull of Type 69's.

[DanteXavier]

I can see a big role for the Reva's. They would be excellent for patrol, especially in remote area's with the protection they need.

Reva variants:
Reva APC - regular armored personnel carrier (replacement for the BTR's)
Reva Command - Should replace the Spartan APC's
Reva Ambulance - Ambulance variant
Reva Patrol - special patrol vehicle with small one-man turret (replacement for the RAM's)
Reva AT - TOW missile launcher added similair to humvee's with TOW's
Reva AA - vehicle with instead of the back cab an AVENGER station

They should be easy to acquire and not expensive because they are manufactured in SA, so shipment of big amounts shouldn't be a problem.

So, basically it'd be sort of a "do everything" vehicle, like the hummer is for the U.S....nice idea. So if those are bought, would they no longer need any Land Rovers or anything like that?

[KingoftheHill]

Maybe create a small force of the best elite troops that can act as a Presidential or in ExArmyGuards the Kings guard.Maybe arm them with Ak with better sights and accesories.

Are Botswana's Leo-1's still operated.How many where bought.
Like an rapid action force eqipped with
AK-74M (similar to Cyprus's models)
HS-2000 pistol
Kevlar
A handful of Type 92 (WZ551)
Reva APC
Dauphin helicopters (or Chinese Z-9 version)
You can probably get alot of used Mirage series from Latin American stocks that are being phased out and for a good price.G-36's are more expensive.Just stick with the trusty Ak series.

If Botswana has good relations with Israel even get some of the Mirages upgraded.

Nah, more C/F-5s are better.


As delivered to Botswana, the CF-5s were very advanced fighters – almost comparable to Boeing F/A-18A Hornets. They have got new GEC-Marconi HUDs and weapons aiming and computing system (WACS), with an air data compute, and an improved navaid suite, including Litton INS and GPS, Magnavox AN/ARC-164 VHF radios, JET standby attitude indicator, Corac AoA sensor, Honywell radar altimeter and Ferranti video cameras. The whole weapons system was linked to the MIL-STD 1553B databus, making them compatible with all possible NATO-standardised weapons. In addition, the structures of these aircraft were strengthened and they were re-winged, increasing their life-expectance for 3.000 additional hours.

Additional upgrades on BDF CF-5s in Botswana were undertaken by British Aerospace (BAe) Flight Systems. Specifically, the BAe was installing ALE-47 chaff & flare dispensers on two fighters, including one single- and a two-seater. Their QA Representative, Joe M., arrived in Botswana in 2002, and here are some of his recollections, together with four photographs from these times:

Get more CF-5s before the Canadians scrap them :bash:

And for the rest of the military in general
Type 81 rifle
Dongfeng EQ2100E
Have Poland upgrade the BM-21s
More SA-16s
8 Mi-17 with NVG
2 more C-130
12 Super Tucanos

[DanteXavier]

Like an rapid action force eqipped with

AK-74M (similar to Cyprus's models)
HS-2000 pistol
Kevlar
A handful of Type 92 (WZ551)
Reva APC
Dauphin helicopters (or Chinese Z-9 version)I like all of those suggestions except for the Type 92(remember the relations with China are neutral, West are the biggest allies)...are there any similar western models? Wouldn't Pirahna's do the same job? Are they too much more costly?

I like the idea about the Dauphin's especially.


Nah, more C/F-5s are better.

Get more CF-5s before the Canadians scrap them :bash:


I like Mirages(:-( )...but I guess the CF-5s would be ok to, as long as it can be found that they're more capable than any Mirages that could be acquired. They'd all have to be upgraded accordingly.
I do know that those upgraded CF-5s are as good as F-18As, so I guess one could assume that they're better than Mirage IIs or Vs. If that's the case, then i guess it'd be a good idea to acquire them.
Would it still perhaps be a good idea to still get some Jaguars or Mirage's for Ground attack purposes, or maybe some used Mirage F-1s specifically for interception?

Edit: ok, wait a sec, I found some info about mirages vs. F-5s...

If they get Mirages, those could be upgraded into Kfirs by Israel...CF-5s aren't as good in the air as Mirage's or Kfirs(they're still ok, but not as good). And upgraded Mirage would definitely outdo any CF-5s in the air, but the CF-5 is probably the better Ground attack plane.

So, maybe in the end it would be better to keep the CF-5s as primarily ground attack aircraft, and then get those mirages, upgrade them to Kfir standard, and use them in the air to air roles.

[KingoftheHill]

I like all of those suggestions except for the Type 92(remember the relations with China are neutral, West are the biggest allies)...are there any similar western models? Wouldn't Pirahna's do the same job? Are they too much more costly?
I like the idea about the Dauphin's especially.


Remember this is China, meaning no strings attached. They can get them probably pretty cheap. They are what they are.

The Dauphins could carry up to 10 commandos and can be armed, not to mention their size fits Botswana's military needs well.

But...

Boy oh boy we think alike, I was gonna put Piranhas but i thought people would shoot the idea down :cantbeli:


I like Mirages(:-( )...but I guess the CF-5s would be ok to, as long as it can be found that they're more capable than any Mirages that could be acquired. They'd all have to be upgraded accordingly.
I do know that those upgraded CF-5s are as good as F-18As, so I guess one could assume that they're better than Mirage IIs or Vs. If that's the case, then i guess it'd be a good idea to acquire them.
Would it still perhaps be a good idea to still get some Jaguars or Mirage's for Ground attack purposes, or maybe some used Mirage F-1s specifically for interception? Why all the types? The CF-5s should do good against Zimbabwe's MiG-23s and F-7s in the even of war.

[DanteXavier]

Remember this is China, meaning no strings attached. They can get them probably pretty cheap. They are what they are.

The Dauphins could carry up to 10 commandos and can be armed, not to mention their size fits Botswana's military needs well.

But...

Boy oh boy we think alike, I was gonna put Piranhas but i thought people would shoot the idea down :cantbeli:

Well, i dunno, maybe i just have a bias towards the pirahnasp-)


Why all the types? The CF-5s should do good against Zimbabwe's MiG-23s and F-7s in the even of war.

Well, I'm justthinking about making the force as capable as possible, rather than only just matching others. Acquiring a few Mirage's, then upgrading them would give better air to air capability, while they could just keep the CF-5s that are already there and use them primarily for ground attack roles. I just threw the Jaguars in there as another possibility, but if the mirage's are acquired and upgraded, those probably won't be needed at all. it's just be Mirage's/Kfirs for the air-to-air roles, and CF-5s for the ground.

Also, I think Zimbabawe is going to also try acquiring not just F-7s, but also even newer chinese aircraft. Mirage's/Kfirs might stand a better chance against FC-1s, or anything else Zimbabawe tries to get.

[Ironsight06]

Also, I think Zimbabawe is going to also try acquiring not just F-7s, but also even newer chinese aircraft. Mirage's/Kfirs might stand a better chance against FC-1s, or anything else Zimbabawe tries to get.
No country is stupid enough to supply Mugabe with advanced weaponary. Expect the ZDF will stay as it is for now.

[exarmyguard]

No country is stupid enough to supply Mugabe with advanced weaponary. Expect the ZDF will stay as it is for now.

As long as he doesn't have a need for it. I would bet China would give or sell whatever to good ol' Mugi if he complained enough. What if Mugi was willing to keep the French LeClerc Tank line open by purchasing 200 tanks? Would the French allow this? History has shown the French selling to all sorts of unsavory characters, ie Saddam and his Mirage and Entendards. A lot of "what if's" but with alot of precedence.

[KingoftheHill]

Well, i dunno, maybe i just have a bias towards the pirahnasp-)



Well, I'm justthinking about making the force as capable as possible, rather than only just matching others. Acquiring a few Mirage's, then upgrading them would give better air to air capability, while they could just keep the CF-5s that are already there and use them primarily for ground attack roles. I just threw the Jaguars in there as another possibility, but if the mirage's are acquired and upgraded, those probably won't be needed at all. it's just be Mirage's/Kfirs for the air-to-air roles, and CF-5s for the ground.

Also, I think Zimbabawe is going to also try acquiring not just F-7s, but also even newer chinese aircraft. Mirage's/Kfirs might stand a better chance against FC-1s, or anything else Zimbabawe tries to get.

I doubt China will give Mugabe the J-10 or any other advanced fighter. Those CF-5s will be good for the near future.

[Ironsight06]

What about a ST Kinetics upgrade for the SK-105's, if compatible off course:
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=130

[ase290406]

Allright here's my try.

Ground Forces:

Scorpion: Buy 66 more, 1/3 are Striker versions with atgm.
1/3 are spartan apc's. (Acheiving a total of 100+ of them)
Sk-105:Remains
Vulcan: Upgrade to the Israeli "Mahbet" configuration.
Adding 4 stingers and a better electronic equipment.
Hmvvw: 100 of an old model from U.S. 50 with M2, 25 with MK-19, 25 with TOW.
Arty:2s23 Nova-SVK self-propelled 120 Mortar. Build on BTR chasis.
Maybe to be converted from the existing BTR-60's. Buy about 100.

Sell/scrap everything else.

Small arms:
Ak-101's+GP's rechambered for NATO 5.56 mm.
Negev:Israeli,similar to SAW, but probably cheaper, 5.56 mm.
M4 for SF: Lighter than AK, more customizable. SF soldiers will keep clean.
RPG-7: Self explanatory
Carl Gustaff: Buy 30 more, to serve as a more heavy AT weapon.
Maybe for SF.

Air force:

Mi24V: About 25, heavily armed + transport. Eastern Europe.

MI-8: About 25. Eastern Europe.

C-130 Hercules: Buy 3 more.

IF the U.S is willing to sell at a marginal price, together with free weapon's and spare parts:

10 F-14 Tomcats for Air to Air. (Unit cost 38mil $- FAS.org)

And leave 10 F-5's for Air to ground.

Alternative: Get as many advanced F-5 versions as you can.

Scrap/sell everything else.

[ase290406]

Ignore this post please. Written by mistake.

[Ghelp]

F-14's are a bit much.Every thing else is ok.

[KingoftheHill]

10 F-14 Tomcats for Air to Air. (Unit cost 38mil $- FAS.org)

Woah buddy, imagine how much it will cost to keep those flying?

Plus for 30 million you can get a better Su-30MK series :-*$

[Ironsight06]

SK-105 upgrade for Botswana

Latest engine, transmission etc. updates:
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/supplement/lav/lav_sk105.shtml

+

Denel's LMT-105 turret:
http://denel.co.za/Landsystems/LS_TurretsLMT105.pdf

[DanteXavier]

SK-105 upgrade for Botswana

Latest engine, transmission etc. updates:
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/supplement/lav/lav_sk105.shtml

+

Denel's LMT-105 turret:
http://denel.co.za/Landsystems/LS_TurretsLMT105.pdf

That looks like a good idea, great suggestion.:)

[DanteXavier]

Allright here's my try.

Ground Forces:

Scorpion: Buy 66 more, 1/3 are Striker versions with atgm.
1/3 are spartan apc's. (Acheiving a total of 100+ of them)
Sk-105:Remains
Vulcan: Upgrade to the Israeli "Mahbet" configuration.
Adding 4 stingers and a better electronic equipment.
Hmvvw: 100 of an old model from U.S. 50 with M2, 25 with MK-19, 25 with TOW.
Arty:2s23 Nova-SVK self-propelled 120 Mortar. Build on BTR chasis.
Maybe to be converted from the existing BTR-60's. Buy about 100.

Sell/scrap everything else.

decent idea. You sure the US would sell Hummers to Botswana? I didn't figure they would.



Small arms:
Ak-101's+GP's rechambered for NATO 5.56 mm.
Negev:Israeli,similar to SAW, but probably cheaper, 5.56 mm.
M4 for SF: Lighter than AK, more customizable. SF soldiers will keep clean.
RPG-7: Self explanatory
Carl Gustaff: Buy 30 more, to serve as a more heavy AT weapon.
Maybe for SF.


Air force:

Mi24V: About 25, heavily armed + transport. Eastern Europe.

MI-8: About 25. Eastern Europe.

C-130 Hercules: Buy 3 more.

IF the U.S is willing to sell at a marginal price, together with free weapon's and spare parts:

10 F-14 Tomcats for Air to Air. (Unit cost 38mil $- FAS.org)

And leave 10 F-5's for Air to ground.

Alternative: Get as many advanced F-5 versions as you can.

Scrap/sell everything else.

Well, I'm not sure Botswana could afford to maintain F-14s- those cost a ton of cash to keep flying, and a lot of work hours. I wish I could say it was plausible, but I'm not sure Botswana has the means to keep them going. It may be better to buy more F-5s and use Mirage's for the air to air role.

[C-in-C]

Worked with some of their officers. Well trained, educated, most with atleast a bachelor's. Country is flat. Would wait for used Stryker vehicles from US.

- 50 Stryker second hands. (South africa used Ratel in Angola effctively)
- retrain military to fight as small Special forces units.

- buy 10 F-5
- buy 7 mirage
- shop around for heavy lift helicopters
- add 4 used C130s

[KingoftheHill]

Worked with some of their officers. Well trained, educated, most with atleast a bachelor's. Country is flat. Would wait for used Stryker vehicles from US.

- 50 Stryker second hands. (South africa used Ratel in Angola effctively)
- retrain military to fight as small Special forces units.

- buy 10 F-5
- buy 7 mirage
- shop around for heavy lift helicopters
- add 4 used C130s
Hey Bro, welcome.


Maybe in this instance Mi-26s would be more useful for hauling stuff around the Kalahari Desert than a C-130 would?

The Stykers have a long ways before the are going to be phased out, so something in the Piranha/WZ551/VAB/Ratel class would do, right?

Just my opinion :|

[Razvodnik]

Why are everybody likes the Hummer? It is pretty expensive, very big and you need special parts for it to keep em running. I would suggest a vehicle that is cheaper in buying and operating, easier to repair and at all much lighter! Imagine how a road looks a like in the rain time. And then you try to move with a 3-ton Hummer? It don´t make sense for me!

Why don´t buy Toyota Pick Up´s or the good old M151 Jeep. In bad road conditions i have preety good experience with the Lada Niva. It was much better than a Puch G (Mercedes) or the Nissan Patrol. The only problem with Lada is the quality, but this you could handle if you order a large amount than you could fix it in production line. Remeber that the Niva costs under 7.000 EUR ex-factory, a twenty year old US Army Hummer costs in Germany about 25-30.000 EUR.

If you decides to buy Lada and UAZ Jeeps and Kamaz Trucks the Russians will be very happy to sell you ATGM that you could mount on the vehicles. Also the Russians have the tiger Jeep it can compare to the Hummer but cheaper. Or if you prefer western equipment look at the Italian Iveco Jeep, the croatian Army has buyed 10 for the use in Afghanisan +70 pcs option.

I have no problem with spending money, but i´m again to waste money!

[Ironsight06]

Why are everybody likes the Hummer? It is pretty expensive, very big and you need special parts for it to keep em running. I would suggest a vehicle that is cheaper in buying and operating, easier to repair and at all much lighter! Imagine how a road looks a like in the rain time. And then you try to move with a 3-ton Hummer? It don´t make sense for me!

Why don´t buy Toyota Pick Up´s or the good old M151 Jeep. In bad road conditions i have preety good experience with the Lada Niva. It was much better than a Puch G (Mercedes) or the Nissan Patrol. The only problem with Lada is the quality, but this you could handle if you order a large amount than you could fix it in production line. Remeber that the Niva costs under 7.000 EUR ex-factory, a twenty year old US Army Hummer costs in Germany about 25-30.000 EUR.

If you decides to buy Lada and UAZ Jeeps and Kamaz Trucks the Russians will be very happy to sell you ATGM that you could mount on the vehicles. Also the Russians have the tiger Jeep it can compare to the Hummer but cheaper. Or if you prefer western equipment look at the Italian Iveco Jeep, the croatian Army has buyed 10 for the use in Afghanisan +70 pcs option.

I have no problem with spending money, but i´m again to waste money!
Don't forget that buying USA is a plus as the relations between Botswana and the USA are well. I think Ruskie equipment is a big no-no here.

Regarding those Iveco's, I think they are way too expensive for a country like that and I think it would be easier to stick with the Reva's. The Reva is produced in South Africa and should be easier to obtain maintenance and spare parts for besides that it will cost you a third of the price of an Iveco.

[Razvodnik]

Of Course the relations between Botswana and the US are very good and the relations to Russia are "Neutral". But the Kamaz and Lada that i thougt about are Civil 4x4 vehicles that you can also buy in Germany for example. The U.S. has preety good equipment but i don´t realize the need for buying everything in the U.S. that i can get cheaper and better on the world market.

The Reva is a APC, not a utility vehicle. I like the High Mobility Concept :) based on commercial vehicles similar to the USMC Wolf or the M151 before.

Maybe a a couple of Mercedes Unimog´s would be good for troop transport purposes. Buy used from Bundeswehr, they have already instaled the MG3 Lafette on the roof of the cabin. On the load area you can mount almost everything, a Avenger Station, Red Cross Conatainer, TOW Launcher, 40mm Bofors AAA...

How much cost a Reva? 400k $? You will need about 150 Pieces, so i would split it up, reduce the APC to 40 and fill up the rest with used commercial and military trucks (Mercedes or MAN 6x6 and 8x8 and Unimog) and give them additional armor to protect the troops against Small Rifle Fire and IED´s. As a alternative to the Hummer get some old M151 from USMC, they can be equipped with a .50, M60, M249, TOW or Mk19 to have mobile fire power.

The military all over the world is forced to reduce their operationg costs, in Europe as in Africa. The German Bundeswehr has a couple of years ago started a own Fleet Service for comercial vehicles. Search for BW Fuhrparkservice for closer informations.

[DanteXavier]

Worked with some of their officers. Well trained, educated, most with atleast a bachelor's. Country is flat. Would wait for used Stryker vehicles from US.

Interesting:) How long will the wait be for those Strykers to hit the used market? If it does take too long, Pirahna's would probably suffice in the meantime, along with the Reva's from SA.


- retrain military to fight as small Special forces units.

- buy 10 F-5
- buy 7 mirage
- shop around for heavy lift helicopters
- add 4 used C130s

Great idea, fit right in line with what i was thinking. For heavy lift, should we be thinking Mi-26? Not sure Botswana could afford any U.S. stuff(or could they?).

[DanteXavier]

Don't forget that buying USA is a plus as the relations between Botswana and the USA are well. I think Ruskie equipment is a big no-no here.

Basically, yes. Russian equipment is an option(as seen by the Mi-17s, and the Mi-26, AK-74s, etc, etc) but if there is a comparable western alternative available, then it becomes first priority. Ruskie stuff is sort of the 2nd option(no offence to the ruskies:) ), but if there is no comparable western alternative within reason, then it can be attained.

So, to sum it up: Western stuff first, if not, then look east.

[Razvodnik]

Why they need heavy lift chopper? The Mi17 can transport two platoons, i don´t realize the need for instant transport of a whole company. By the way it is a big risk to transport a company in one chopper, only one Strela or Stinger hit is needed to kill a entire company! In War time you can´t afford the loss of so many trained soldiers at once.

I think it is smarter to buy two or thre Mi17 instead of one Mi26. But if you like US what about the CH46 Seaknight and the CH53 of the USMC reserve? When the Osprey comes this birds are going to be replaced.

[KingoftheHill]

Basically, yes. Russian equipment is an option(as seen by the Mi-17s, and the Mi-26, AK-74s, etc, etc) but if there is a comparable western alternative available, then it becomes first priority. Ruskie stuff is sort of the 2nd option(no offence to the ruskies:) ), but if there is no comparable western alternative within reason, then it can be attained.

So, to sum it up: Western stuff first, if not, then look east.
Not in this case, many times you can get new Russian stuff and with the funds you can only get second hand Western stuff.

[Hellfish]

Well, I'm not sure Botswana could afford to maintain F-14s- those cost a ton of cash to keep flying, and a lot of work hours. I wish I could say it was plausible, but I'm not sure Botswana has the means to keep them going. It may be better to buy more F-5s and use Mirage's for the air to air role.

Why the hell would they need F-14s anyways? There are no old Soviet bombers to intercept over Botswana...

[KingoftheHill]

Why the hell would they need F-14s anyways? There are no old Soviet bombers to intercept over Botswana...

LOL p-)

12345

[Razvodnik]

Why the hell would they need F-14s anyways? There are no old Soviet bombers to intercept over Botswana...

Maybe as a AWACS alternative, i heard the Iranian used the F14 as AEW System in the Mid eighties.

[Ironsight06]

How much cost a Reva? 400k $? You will need about 150 Pieces, so i would split it up, reduce the APC to 40 and fill up the rest with used commercial and military trucks (Mercedes or MAN 6x6 and 8x8 and Unimog) and give them additional armor to protect the troops against Small Rifle Fire and IED´s. As a alternative to the Hummer get some old M151 from USMC, they can be equipped with a .50, M60, M249, TOW or Mk19 to have mobile fire power.
The Reva is only 100k.

[Razvodnik]

Holy S´hit, its cheaper then my BMW :) , never again problems with the Rush Hour or to get a parking lot in Frankfurt Downtown.

[Hellfish]

Maybe as a AWACS alternative, i heard the Iranian used the F14 as AEW System in the Mid eighties.

Why the hell would Botswana need AWACS? The only threat to them is the half dozen Zimbabwean J-7s that are still functional. Why would you spend $34 million on even a single F-14 just to shoot down some ****ty planes flown by ****ty pilots that, at most, cost $1 million each.

If Botswana has that much money to blow, they should spend it on a cure for AIDS first.

[DanteXavier]

Why the hell would they need F-14s anyways? There are no old Soviet bombers to intercept over Botswana...

Well, it'd look totally badassp-)

LOL, but seriously, you're right. Botswana wouldn't need any of those, and even if Zimbabwe did get TU-20s or something, Mirages would probably suffice.

[DanteXavier]

Why they need heavy lift chopper? The Mi17 can transport two platoons, i don´t realize the need for instant transport of a whole company. By the way it is a big risk to transport a company in one chopper, only one Strela or Stinger hit is needed to kill a entire company! In War time you can´t afford the loss of so many trained soldiers at once..

I think they may be used to lift some of the APCS from place to place. Not sure if the MI-17 can do that, but if they can then that would work.

CH53 is a good idea, but I just wasn't sure if they'd be too expensive.

[DanteXavier]

Why the hell would Botswana need AWACS? The only threat to them is the half dozen Zimbabwean J-7s that are still functional. Why would you spend $34 million on even a single F-14 just to shoot down some ****ty planes flown by ****ty pilots that, at most, cost $1 million each.

If Botswana has that much money to blow, they should spend it on a cure for AIDS first.

Don't forget, this is a created scenario.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2337380&postcount=6

Basically, we're assessing the countries true capability to it's full capacity(meaning we're talking about what would happen if AIDS was not as big of an issue). like i said, just for fun.p-)

Anyway, you're still right in anycase. F-14s would look badass and all, but they're just too expensive and they take too much work to maintain. Overall, not worth the ammount of effort needed. Kfirs, Mirages and F-5s should probably do just fine, but they probably don't need anything more expensive than that.

[Razvodnik]

I´m not sure i would by Mirage´s, i would concetrate on F5 and if Super Tucanos are too expensive i would thought about A4 or A1 for the CAS. A good CAS system with good resistance again AAA an Stinger is important, more than the Air Dominance Fighter.

[DanteXavier]

I´m not sure i would by Mirage´s, i would concetrate on F5 and if Super Tucanos are too expensive i would thought about A4 or A1 for the CAS. A good CAS system with good resistance again AAA an Stinger is important, more than the Air Dominance Fighter.

Well, having a few upgraded ones would put the air force on par with most other countries, and they still wouldn't cost a whole lot of money. The CF-5s are good and Canada sells them cheap, but they're best at ground attack duties and are more limited air-to-air.
With this strategy, they should still be capable of providing good close air support(they would buy a few more F-5s and the aforementioned Tucanos). Tucanos may be expensive, but it would still likely be possible to acquire about 6 of them just for CAS/COIN operations. The CF-5 has good ground attack capability, and will also be good for CAS. The Mirages(upgraded to Kfirs plus the squad of F1s, maybe 6 or 8 just for CAP and air-to-air missions) will be used for CAP, and can also be used for ground attack purposes if needed(the Kfirs can possibly carry smart bombs as well, which I don't think the CF-5 can do).

Plus, they shouldn't be too expensive. The Mirage's wont cost too much to buy used, and they'd only have to pay for the upgrade in Israel.

[KingoftheHill]

Mirages will be too much maintainance wise for Botswana.

Better off to stick with one type and use it in multiple roles.

[DanteXavier]

Mirages will be too much maintainance wise for Botswana.

Better off to stick with one type and use it in multiple roles.

If they modernize the bases at molepolele, and in Francistown to accomodate them, then I think it won't be too much of a hassle. Mirage's aren't too expensive to begin with. Besides that, there are only two different builds of aircraft(mirage variants and F-5s). That should be manageable. Botswana's status as a friendly nation should give them a fairly steady stream of parts for the aircraft, and since the aircraft are going to be playing different roles, the pilots of each type can be trained accordingly.

It would also be possible to train pilots to fly more than one type as well. Using one plane in multiple roles is ok, but what if that one plane is better at one thing than another? The CF-5 is good air to ground, but pretty marginal air to air, and it can't carry smart bombs. Adding another type of plane will help maximize the capability of the force by allowing it the capability to perform different roles with maximum effect.
At the same time, however, the other plane we're adding(the israeli upgraded mirage's) isn't too expensive, is fairly easy to maintain, and will turn the airforce into a completely modern, multi 3 dimensional force capable of performing any role to maximum effect.

It seems a win-win situation.:)

[DanteXavier]

BTW, about the rifles. I think it should be settled on the m16. I did a little research and found that Botswana actually already uses them. So, i guess that should just stay the same.

[Ironsight06]

BTW, about the rifles. I think it should be settled on the m16. I did a little research and found that Botswana actually already uses them. So, i guess that should just stay the same.
So maybe buy some additional M16's and M4 carbines for para's and SF?

LMG will probably be the MAG and the M2 as HMG right?

[playtym]

So maybe buy some additional M16's and M4 carbines for para's and SF?

LMG will probably be the MAG and the M2 as HMG right?

You can't go wrong by using any of those.

[DanteXavier]

So maybe buy some additional M16's and M4 carbines for para's and SF?

LMG will probably be the MAG and the M2 as HMG right?

Yeah, that should cover it. Maybe M4A1 for the commandos alongside a few MP5s(I hear those are popular within the SF).

[Razvodnik]

Yeah, that should cover it. Maybe M4A1 for the commandos alongside a few MP5s(I hear those are popular within the SF).

Yes the MP5 are very popular, you can get em cheap from Iran. The Germans, H&K, have signed a contract with the Shah to build up a factory for G3 and MP5, after the Mullahs taken the power they continued to produce weapons there. They are - AFAIK- similar to the early German versions.

How is the terrain configuration in Botswana, more desert or more jungle? I don´t think the MP5 is good for jungle fight, IMHO it needs more firepower. For that the US Navy had build a variant with a bigger calibre. The MP5 is in common use with the law Enforcment forces in Europe.

[KingoftheHill]

Yes the MP5 are very popular, you can get em cheap from Iran. The Germans, H&K, have signed a contract with the Shah to build up a factory for G3 and MP5, after the Mullahs taken the power they continued to produce weapons there. They are - AFAIK- similar to the early German versions.

How is the terrain configuration in Botswana, more desert or more jungle? I don´t think the MP5 is good for jungle fight, IMHO it needs more firepower. For that the US Navy had build a variant with a bigger calibre. The MP5 is in common use with the law Enforcment forces in Europe.
Getting them from Iran may be a bad idea.

[Razvodnik]

Getting them from Iran may be a bad idea.


AhmedJihad is going to sell anything for Euro, Schweizer Franken or Diamonds. I even don´t have to buy it in Theran, i can buy ii directly in Dubai.

[Ironsight06]

Relations with the US are strong. Why the hell order them from Iran :|

[perdurabo]

Relations with the US are strong. Why the hell order them from Iran :|
because its cheap? some smaler polish cities police units order MP5s from Iran, only bigger ones have enough cash for oryginal HK.

[Lt.Havoc]

Yes the MP5 are very popular, you can get em cheap from Iran. The Germans, H&K, have signed a contract with the Shah to build up a factory for G3 and MP5, after the Mullahs taken the power they continued to produce weapons there. They are - AFAIK- similar to the early German versions.

How is the terrain configuration in Botswana, more desert or more jungle? I don´t think the MP5 is good for jungle fight, IMHO it needs more firepower. For that the US Navy had build a variant with a bigger calibre. The MP5 is in common use with the law Enforcment forces in Europe.

I would rather buy the MP5 and the G3 from the Greek company Hellenic Arms, they also produce the MG3 in licence. Well, I´m observing this topic with great intrest.

Well, I would try to get the FNC as the basic weapon for the ground forces or the HK33, both are produced in licence by a couple of countries. These weapons are rugged and easy to maintain. My other idea would be to approach France and buy the FAMAS, but I´m not sure how much it will cost.

Well, anyway, that are my current ideas. I have some more intresting solutions and suggestions, but I will post it later after I have everything put together and looked searched my sources.

Nice thread btw, I like these kind of scenarios, then you need to find the best fitting solution and spend the money right.

BTW: do you have the 450 Million for 10 years, or do you have 450 million defence budget every year for 10 years? Sorry if that sounds dumb, but thats what was puzzeling me all the time.

[Col. Psycho]

Uhm, dont know if this has been mentioned, but there is a reason why alot of southern african militaries use wheeled vehicles over tracked ones - the terrain. I'd build a small, but high speed sophisticated military using mostly wheeled vehicles with tanks an extra option.

I'd sell most of the current stuff, if not all of it. I'd then buy the following:

Armor:

60 x Rooikats + 105mm turrets.
120 x Iklawa IFVs.
240 x Casspirs for troop transport.
60 x RG32 Mamba patrol vehicles.
60 x Upgraded T-80's.

Soft Skin Vehicles:

120 x Land Rover 110 w/ WMIK or similar.
whatever many Samil trucks needed.

Artillery:

24 x G6 artillery pieces.
120 x Assorted mortar pieces from Denel.

Attack Helicopters:

24 x Upgraded HIND's from that South African company.

-=-=-=-=-

very rough, i havent calculated the amounts and left out alot of equipment types. But, i stuck to locally produced / maintained vehicles because:

a) it boosts local economy's.
b) parts would be available locally, and training would be cheaper.
c) SANDF and Botswana's forces would be rather compliant with each other, allowing the countries to fight as an ally with very similar equipment, i.e like NATO does.

i'll revise this another time, right now im a bit busy. :D


edit: the terrain in that part of botswana is typical savanna, with thick bush in parts and lush green vegitation in other parts. it can be as hot as the desert but when it rains, it rains. :D


second edit: I'd keep it simple and buy large amounts of R4's from Denel, infact, i'd go one step further and purchase CR21's. (bullpup R4, in laymans terms.) and for a pistol i'd just go with the browning high-power. Remember, the terrain is horrible to weapons out there, and at the end of the day if they are trained to the best of thier ability with rugged firearms, they'd be fine. :) non of this G36 mumbo jumbo. :P

[DanteXavier]

Yes the MP5 are very popular, you can get em cheap from Iran. The Germans, H&K, have signed a contract with the Shah to build up a factory for G3 and MP5, after the Mullahs taken the power they continued to produce weapons there. They are - AFAIK- similar to the early German versions.

How is the terrain configuration in Botswana, more desert or more jungle? I don´t think the MP5 is good for jungle fight, IMHO it needs more firepower. For that the US Navy had build a variant with a bigger calibre. The MP5 is in common use with the law Enforcment forces in Europe.

Botswana is predominantly flat, tending toward to gently rolling tableland. The Kalahari Desert is located in the southwest of the country.
Botswana is dominated by the Kalahari Desert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalahari_Desert), which covers up to 70% of the land surface of the country. The Okavango Delta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okavango_Delta), the world's largest inland delta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_delta), is in the Northwest. The Makgadikgadi Pan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makgadikgadi_Pan), a large salt pan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_pan) lies in the North.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botswana#Geography_and_environment

No jungles at all;far too dry.

[DanteXavier]

I would rather buy the MP5 and the G3 from the Greek company Hellenic Arms, they also produce the MG3 in licence. Well, I´m observing this topic with great intrest.

Well, I would try to get the FNC as the basic weapon for the ground forces or the HK33, both are produced in licence by a couple of countries. These weapons are rugged and easy to maintain. My other idea would be to approach France and buy the FAMAS, but I´m not sure how much it will cost.

Well, I figured since Botswana already has them that it'd be cool to just stick with the M16. They're already there, they don't cost too much, and they can easily be acquired in larger numbers from the US thanks to strong relations.


Well, anyway, that are my current ideas. I have some more intresting solutions and suggestions, but I will post it later after I have everything put together and looked searched my sources.

Nice thread btw, I like these kind of scenarios, then you need to find the best fitting solution and spend the money right.

Thanks! I wanted the thread idea to be interesting, and building in smaller countries is always challenging, and therefore somewhat more fun(at least I think so). I'm glad people like it. I've actually been daydreaming about these types of scenarios all the time(I have a lot of free time and no life, basically) and it was cool to get some professional opinions about it. I've really enjoyed the conversations.
I might make a couple more of these once this thread has run it's course, which hopefully won't be for a while. Like I said, I've definitely enjoyed this thread.:)


BTW: do you have the 450 Million for 10 years, or do you have 450 million defence budget every year for 10 years? Sorry if that sounds dumb, but thats what was puzzeling me all the time.

$450 million per year for 10 years. I guess it could be higher if the budget changes a bit, but overall this will be the minimum and the average, so budget as if you're spending that much.:)

[DanteXavier]

Uhm, dont know if this has been mentioned, but there is a reason why alot of southern african militaries use wheeled vehicles over tracked ones - the terrain. I'd build a small, but high speed sophisticated military using mostly wheeled vehicles with tanks an extra option.

That's not a bad idea, I suppose:)


I'd sell most of the current stuff, if not all of it. I'd then buy the following:

Armor:

60 x Rooikats + 105mm turrets.
120 x Iklawa IFVs.
240 x Casspirs for troop transport.
60 x RG32 Mamba patrol vehicles.


I like all of those ideas. The casspirs will definitely be good for troop transport(I had not thought of that), and a few mambas can be utilized alongside the Revas for patrol and other similar roles. The rooikats are also a great idea. But what about the Reva APC? Should they buy along with the Iklawa? Or should they just stick with the Reva(cheaper, and already available)?


Soft Skin Vehicles:

120 x Land Rover 110 w/ WMIK or similar.
whatever many Samil trucks needed.

Artillery:

24 x G6 artillery pieces.
120 x Assorted mortar pieces from Denel.

Those are good suggestions. I think we've established that the G^ and the Land Rover should be fairly concrete buys, as should the mortars.


Attack Helicopters:

24 x Upgraded HIND's from that South African company.

This actually reminds me...how much do Rooivalks and Cobras cost? p-)


very rough, i havent calculated the amounts and left out alot of equipment types. But, i stuck to locally produced / maintained vehicles because:

a) it boosts local economy's.
b) parts would be available locally, and training would be cheaper.
c) SANDF and Botswana's forces would be rather compliant with each other, allowing the countries to fight as an ally with very similar equipment, i.e like NATO does.

i'll revise this another time, right now im a bit busy. :D

Yeah, I was thinking about the cooperation thing to. Botswana's military already sends personnel to train in the US and England, but I think that they could cooperate with South Africa, and maybe even Namibia(I'll make a thread on that country later:) ) in terms of military operations and excercises, maybe even creating a south african union of sorts.


second edit: I'd keep it simple and buy large amounts of R4's from Denel, infact, i'd go one step further and purchase CR21's. (bullpup R4, in laymans terms.) and for a pistol i'd just go with the browning high-power. Remember, the terrain is horrible to weapons out there, and at the end of the day if they are trained to the best of thier ability with rugged firearms, they'd be fine. :) non of this G36 mumbo jumbo. :P

Well, the army already has m16s(in real life, as we speak), but I could see a place for the r4 in a secondary role...maybe for the police SWAT teams and as secondary rifles?
As for the G36, I thought it'd be cool to talk about them buying those, but it turns out they're just too darn expensive(I'm hearing something like $1200 per rifle? WTF!:backhand: ) and in anycase, the m16 is already right there.

[Adam Wilhelm]

Personal weapons: M16 because it´s already in use, just buy some more of them and additional M4.

UGL: M203

LSW: Minimi or Negev, the one wich is cheaper.

GPMG: FN MAG

HMG: M2

Mortars: lightweight 81 mm and 120 mm.

Personal clothing: american woodland BDU.s (surplus from U.S) or british DPM jungle.

Personal protection: PASGT-helmets (surplus from U.S) or british Mk. 6, decent kevlar with PALS.

Round things up with some decent group and Platoon radios.
And last but not least: a lot of terrain trucks to support the shooters, the amateur studies tactics, the professional studies logistics

[Col. Psycho]

Personal weapons: M16 because it´s already in use, just buy some more of them and additional M4.

UGL: M203

LSW: Minimi or Negev, the one wich is cheaper.

GPMG: FN MAG

HMG: M2

Mortars: lightweight 81 mm and 120 mm.

Personal clothing: american woodland BDU.s (surplus from U.S) or british DPM jungle.

Personal protection: PASGT-helmets (surplus from U.S) or british Mk. 6, decent kevlar with PALS.

Round things up with some decent group and Platoon radios.
And last but not least: a lot of terrain trucks to support the shooters, the amateur studies tactics, the professional studies logistics

no offense, but for that part of the bush, that camo is mostly useless when considering that there is better camo around, it would work, but you'd probably stick out like a sore thumb if you are patrolling in open plains. I would suggest that american designed Multi-cam, its all purpose and i have a feeling it would fit in the environment pretty well...

I wasnt aware that they used M16's. Maybe purchasing / retrofitting the rifles with new gear (proper optics) would improve thier capabilities.

Also, i didnt know they operated Reva's as Botswana isnt listed as a country operating the Reva, but maybe thats changed. I think it would be cheaper to buy refurbished or even new RG-32's from the SADF instead of having multiple types of vehicle doing the same job. (parts and general logistics would be a bitch if you have a broken down reva on one side and a broken down RG-32 on the other.)

The Rooivalk isnt too expensive, but it isnt exactly cheap. Maybe buying a small amount (say 24 - 32 of them) for support would be a good idea. depends on cost and budget. :| im off to bed. later all.

[DanteXavier]

I wasnt aware that they used M16's. Maybe purchasing / retrofitting the rifles with new gear (proper optics) would improve thier capabilities.

Definitely:)


Also, i didnt know they operated Reva's as Botswana isnt listed as a country operating the Reva, but maybe thats changed. I think it would be cheaper to buy refurbished or even new RG-32's from the SADF instead of having multiple types of vehicle doing the same job. (parts and general logistics would be a bitch if you have a broken down reva on one side and a broken down RG-32 on the other.)

They actually don't, actually. We'd just talked about using the Reva earlier in the thread, and figured it'd be a great vehicle for the BDF. So, i guess we have to decide which vehicle is better overall: RG-32s or revas.


The Rooivalk isnt too expensive, but it isnt exactly cheap. Maybe buying a small amount (say 24 - 32 of them) for support would be a good idea. depends on cost and budget. :| im off to bed. later all.

Sounds good, thenp-)

[Adam Wilhelm]

no offense, but for that part of the bush, that camo is mostly useless when considering that there is better camo around, it would work, but you'd probably stick out like a sore thumb if you are patrolling in open plains.

Mea culpa, another uniform it is then. p-)
Going multicam is perhaps to expensive but Israeli BDU is a simpler design.

And bying optics to the M16, look at what the Israelis have done to theirs.
I think thats the way to go.

[Razvodnik]

But you don´t need to buy the uniforms for the complete Army at one bunch. You can handle it like the german police with their cars, they are keeping the old green camo but the new ones are going to be deliverd with blue camo.

So you can change the uniforms in this way:
FY01 for SpecOps, Scouts & Forward Observer
FY02 for the rest of the infantry
FY03 Armored & Mechanized infantry
FY04 Support Units and HQ bitches
FY05 Everyone i have forgotten

For the LandRover´s needed i would like to suggest that a good defense attaché in London in combination with a professional ambassador can request the UK for "military aid" so you gone buy old Landies from the British Army for a extremly low price :), the same thing with the US, they will be glad to get rid of the old M151 and couple of dozen 5ton Trucks they have on stock.

@DanteXavier
to get a better view on the situation you should organise a "Consulting" trip to Botswana. Their MoD should pay only for the trip and the hotel, we don´t need a special payment :)

[DanteXavier]

But you don´t need to buy the uniforms for the complete Army at one bunch. You can handle it like the german police with their cars, they are keeping the old green camo but the new ones are going to be deliverd with blue camo.

So you can change the uniforms in this way:
FY01 for SpecOps, Scouts & Forward Observer
FY02 for the rest of the infantry
FY03 Armored & Mechanized infantry
FY04 Support Units and HQ bitches
FY05 Everyone i have forgotten

For the LandRover´s needed i would like to suggest that a good defense attaché in London in combination with a professional ambassador can request the UK for "military aid" so you gone buy old Landies from the British Army for a extremly low price :), the same thing with the US, they will be glad to get rid of the old M151 and couple of dozen 5ton Trucks they have on stock.

Those all sound like really good ideas:) I hadn't taken uniform types into account there...


@DanteXavier
to get a better view on the situation you should organise a "Consulting" trip to Botswana. Their MoD should pay only for the trip and the hotel, we don´t need a special payment :)

Wait, you seriously want me to go to Botswana and talk to their military? Sounds like fun, I'd have to talk to my mom first thoughp-)

[Razvodnik]

Wait, you seriously want me to go to Botswana and talk to their military? Sounds like fun, I'd have to talk to my mom first thoughp-)

If you ask me, don´t ask your parents - just make it. They will only say boring things like "my son it´s too dangerous" or "No, goddamn get in your room". :)

The only thing i wan´t is to travel around the word and have someone who is going to pay the trip. It seems i have no choice i must join the Legion et Rangere to get out of Europe :)

[DanteXavier]

If you ask me, don´t ask your parents - just make it. They will only say boring things like "my son it´s too dangerous" or "No, goddamn get in your room". :)

The only thing i wan´t is to travel around the word and have someone who is going to pay the trip. It seems i have no choice i must join the Legion et Rangere to get out of Europe :)

No, actually, believe it or not, we've been thinking about taking a few of those trips. We're Jamaican, actually, and we've been there enough, so we're thinking that maybe in a few years we could visit Ghana(my stepfather is from there), Namibia, and even Botswana, plus a few other islands in the caribbean that my mom has seen, but that I haven't been to(like Barbados):)

I don't think visiting would be a problem. I'd actually really like to see it myself. Take a ton of pics, maybe some videos....if I could get to the airbase i would do that to.:)

[perdurabo]

with all the shiny toys we forgot moust important ones: comunication, command, surveliace, networks, logistics...

[DanteXavier]

with all the shiny toys we forgot moust important ones: comunication, command, surveliace, networks, logistics...

Well, we did focus a little on troop transport and logistical vehicles(we settled on Casspirs and some Indian trucks, maybe)...Revas/Mambas could probably be used for command vehicles and ambulances(like what happens with some Hummers)...the communication system can be bought from England(Botswana is a part of the commonwealth), and EMB145 AEW systems can be bought for the airforce.

That's a decent start, I think.:)

[Adam Wilhelm]

No i didn´t. p-)


Round things up with some decent group and Platoon radios.
And last but not least: a lot of terrain trucks to support the shooters, the amateur studies tactics, the professional studies logistics

[KingoftheHill]

Well, we did focus a little on troop transport and logistical vehicles(we settled on Casspirs and some Indian trucks, maybe)...Revas/Mambas could probably be used for command vehicles and ambulances(like what happens with some Hummers)...the communication system can be bought from England(Botswana is a part of the commonwealth), and EMB145 AEW systems can be bought for the airforce.

That's a decent start, I think.:)

AEW?

Dude it's just Botswana.

[DanteXavier]

AEW?

Dude it's just Botswana.

Well, hey, you got like 13 F-5s already, and with the kfirs and mirage f1s, plus the transport planes,you'll probably have something like 30-40 jets total plus 10-15 or so more transports and VIP planes. All ofthe most efficient airforces have strong communications, and that often means at least one plane for air control, or AEW.

Or, if some cooperation could be established, Botswana could work with south african AEW...although generally, it's more plausible to just get your own aew. 1 EMB 145 or an E2 Hawkeye shouldn't cost too much either.:)

[KingoftheHill]

Well, hey, you got like 13 F-5s already, and with the kfirs and mirage f1s, plus the transport planes,you'll probably have something like 30-40 jets total plus 10-15 or so more transports and VIP planes. All ofthe most efficient airforces have strong communications, and that often means at least one plane for air control, or AEW.

Or, if some cooperation could be established, Botswana could work with south african AEW...although generally, it's more plausible to just get your own aew. 1 EMB 145 or an E2 Hawkeye shouldn't cost too much either.:)
Your talking about tripling the fleet bro.

Chill,

No need for all that.

[DanteXavier]

Hey, what's up with the title change?

[digrar]

To stop the dozens of threads popping up on the same topic the build a military and overhaul a country threads are now free for alls.

[DanteXavier]

To stop the dozens of threads popping up on the same topic the build a military and overhaul a country threads are now free for alls.

Oh, I get it...so we just put all the build a military threads here in one topic.p-)

[Bahamian]

Bump woot

12345

[DanteXavier]

Bump woot

12345

Cool, I'd almost forgotten about this thread.

Anyway, here is what I cam up with for Botswana's new Air Force:


1 Beechcraft King Air

4 C-130 Hercules.
2 Gulfstream 4
6 Eurocopter Ecureil
8 BN Islanders
7 Bell 412
6 pilatus PC-7
8 BAe Hawks
20 CF-5s
16 Kfirs
And a lone EMB-145 AEW system.

...and that should cut it. I'll outline the army later if anyone is interested.

[Suicaine]

right, well i'll outline some suggestions..

AR-18/copy rifles
CETME Ameli or HK23 Machine gun (Minimi and MG43 could prove too expensive)
FN MAG
M2 .50
CZ-75 Pistols
Parker Hale M82/Barret M90/5 (if a .50 is required)
larger number of 84mm Recoiless rifles

M198 or old FH-70 155mm Howitzers
Bandkanon 155mm SPG's
more 81mm and 120mm mortar systems

possibly Marder 1A3's or/and ex-British Sabre's to replace the V-150's
as for APC's Flog all of the BTR's and replace them all with Spartan's (try to keep just 1 set of APC's)
some nice Landy 110 Deffenders/wolf's (i think WMIK's would cost far too much unfortunatly.)

More Bell 412 helicopters.
small number of F16A/B
possibly 2 CH-53's?
ex-Canadian CH-113's
Surplus CF-5's or F-4's



just a basic outline i'll do some more later.

- Alex.