Delays in storming Falluja - WTF?

[LordHalbert]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3658523.stm

The US has once again delayed storming the city and extended the dead line for turning in heavy weapons.

This has got to be a joke - what is this going to accomplish?

Seems to me that the correct thing to do is take city with extreme violence, kill everybody who resists, detroy all weapons found, and test everybody for firearms propellent residue on the skin.

[seruriermarshal]

It's so bad message , those Iraq sh*t will ready weapon and food , water ......

[Sayeret]

The US has had some really bad policies recently. Not entering Fallujah and giving power back to the baath party has to be the worst. It may not be as bad as leaving Iraq but its getting pretty close.

[seruriermarshal]

To the country , anything after win .

[hank]

The US has had some really bad policies recently. Not entering Fallujah and giving power back to the baath party has to be the worst. It may not be as bad as leaving Iraq but its getting pretty close.

Maybe we should kill Arafat with a missile strike. That would solve everything wouldn't it. :D

hank

[American Patriot]

I dunno, there are a lot of people that need to be killed in that city but at the same time storming the city won't really help US too much.

[TacoDelRio]

I think NOT storming it will provide more problems than attacking it.

seruriermarshal, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you said. I'm not trying to be an ass, just a bit confused.

The Ba'ath party is back in power?!?! WTF?!?!? I need to watch TV once in awhile.

DB p-)

[seruriermarshal]

I think NOT storming it will provide more problems than attacking it.

seruriermarshal, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you said. I'm not trying to be an ass, just a bit confused.

The Ba'ath party is back in power?!?! WTF?!?!? I need to watch TV once in awhile.

DB p-)

My meaning is first win , second rebuild Iraq ......

[SeanAshi]

Maybe we should kill Arafat with a missile strike. That would solve everything wouldn't it.

It woldn't solve anything but it would make us happy :P

[TacoDelRio]

Ah, roger that Securier...

DB p-)

[Durandal]

The Ba'ath Party is not back in power. They announced that they were allowing former Ba'athists back into certain positions. Some of which include teachers.

[Trident-za]

I think they are concerned about 2 types of political fall-out, and it's causing a lot of uncertainty on the part of politicians and military alike. If they "storm" the city of Falluja the Marines will definitely win the war... but will it lose the coalition the battle???

First thing, the fall-out in terms of coalition-Iraqi relations would probably be pretty damn serious. This is a big concern for the guys in charge. You might not think it's an issue, but the guys in charge definitely do.

Second, even though they will win, the Marines will take pretty serious casaulties.... they control approx 25% of Falluja right now, I think. Is that about right? And, its the "outer" 25%..... Taking the center of the city is going to be pretty damn epic, and the remaining bad guys seem very... dedicated. What will the political fall-out in the US be if the next 2 weeks see a higher casaulty rate than what we've seen in the last 3-4 weeks? Don't think it'll happen? Well, the Marines themselves ARE worried about this.

[martinexsquaddie]

another fact massive civillian casualties are not really going to help the coalition are they?
Being a member of the baathist party was like being a member of the NAzi party or communist party in either the soviet Union or Nazi germany you want to get ahead in your career or you get invited to join (your not exactly going to say no are you :( )
so the people who can run iraq are all ex baathiststhe Beaurcrats and techincal mangers etc.
all the people who don't have trerribly important jobs until they don't turn up for work. The majority of low level nazis went back to work in germany have to do the same in iraq if you want the place to work :(
just screen out the real window lickers

[UoUo]

Sayeret, are you from israel?

[LordHalbert]

It seems that the US/Coalition faces a dilema as far as Fulluja and possibly Najaf as well.

If they take the cities with force there may be political fall out and more unrest. If they take a political solution it may not resolve the situation and leave pockets that are not controlled by the US/Coalition - obviously not good.

I'm sure G. Bush has weighed the options but it seems the current situation of threatening violence and backing off is not the correct thing to do. May be the US changed their mind at the last moment, or may be the whole thing was an empty threat without ever really intending to take the city. It's hard to understand what's going on sometimes - there's obviously a lot of games being played. The idea of getting the rebels to turn in all their heavy weapons was rediculous - did anyone truly believe that the rebels would abandon all their RPGs, machine guns, mortors, and AAA ?? So far they have only given up rusty antiques - hardly enough to fill a small truck.

[Flagg]

another fact massive civillian casualties are not really going to help the coalition are they?
Being a member of the baathist party was like being a member of the NAzi party or communist party in either the soviet Union or Nazi germany you want to get ahead in your career or you get invited to join (your not exactly going to say no are you )
so the people who can run iraq are all ex baathiststhe Beaurcrats and techincal mangers etc.
all the people who don't have trerribly important jobs until they don't turn up for work. The majority of low level nazis went back to work in germany have to do the same in iraq if you want the place to work
just screen out the real window lickers

I think Martin makes a good point...and opens the door to an analogy I wonder may be relevant....

I think I recall the US utilised many Nazis....some quite nasty ones as well as many "rubber stamp Nazis" in helping prevent Soviet/Communist subversion/incursion into West Germany and Western Europe after WWII during the rebuilding years.

I believe they were involved in such things as intelligence & counterintelligence activities through latent wartime source networks and resources...amongst other things.

For those that are unaware of the history.......a rebuilt Western Europe and the Marshall Plan didn't appear overnight.....it got quite nasty at times.

I'd be surprised if the US and her allies aren't digging through Saddam era domestic Iraqi intelligence and sources to attempt to manipulate unfolding events.

I reckon the best people to do the work...would be those that created and nurtured the sources.....some of Saddam's own henchmen.

In no way do I condone US utilisation of Nazis then, and possibly Baath Party members now, but I guess the realities of war are dictating the need to find an unconventional and unseemly solution to a problem that seems unresponsive to more traditional approaches.

[HELEX]

Seems to me that the correct thing to do is take city with extreme violence, kill everybody who resists, detroy all weapons found, and test everybody for firearms propellent residue on the skin.

OMG, is there intelligent life on this Planet? :cantbeli:

[Pille1234]

I think I recall the US utilised many Nazis....some quite nasty ones as well as many "rubber stamp Nazis" in helping prevent Soviet/Communist subversion/incursion into West Germany and Western Europe after WWII during the rebuilding years.

I believe they were involved in such things as intelligence & counterintelligence activities through latent wartime source networks and resources...amongst other things.

That's true. Especially the intelligence guys were often former SS and SD ppl, with blood on their hands. Morale aside, that worked because there were common interests. With the USA, against the Soviet union. But where are the common interests with the baathist ppl? They are not working against a common foreign thread. The Baath party was always an instrument of supression, used against shias and all kinds of dissidents. The baathist ppl will probably cooperate with the US because they can gain power, but are their goals the same as the US goals?

[martinexsquaddie]

well I wasn't talking about the int types.
more the rest of society the people who ran the place day to day and the majority of the Army.
who were not big political types but followed orders. Its going to take a generation to have technocrats and beaurcrats free of taint.
As for the kill them all quotes did'nt stop things in chencya did it :roll:

[usa320]

Enough is enough. We need to storm and pacify that city, kill or Capture Zarquawi. Then we need to do the same to Najaf and Sadr. Right now we are letting people keep AK-47's for protection. I think they should have to hand in anything bigger than a pistol.

[Trident-za]

Enough is enough. We need to storm and pacify that city, kill or Capture Zarquawi. Then we need to do the same to Najaf and Sadr. Right now we are letting people keep AK-47's for protection. I think they should have to hand in anything bigger than a pistol.

Edit: My apologies to USA320.... my response was written after a few too many beers. Unacceptable.... sorry for the personal attack dude :oops:

[Flagg]

That's true. Especially the intelligence guys were often former SS and SD ppl, with blood on their hands. Morale aside, that worked because there were common interests. With the USA, against the Soviet union. But where are the common interests with the baathist ppl? They are not working against a common foreign thread. The Baath party was always an instrument of supression, used against shias and all kinds of dissidents. The baathist ppl will probably cooperate with the US because they can gain power, but are their goals the same as the US goals?

I suspect the common interest could be the prevention of a fundamentalist movement.

If a fundamentalist group gained power in Iraq......it's quite possible Baathists, especially the naughty ones, would be purged like the Shah's supporters and his SAVAK in Iran.....many others would likely be forced to flee......strong motivation.



well I wasn't talking about the int types.
more the rest of society the people who ran the place day to day and the majority of the Army.
who were not big political types but followed orders. Its going to take a generation to have technocrats and beaurcrats free of taint.

I agree Martin......

I wouldn't think the civil servants who were "involuntary or go with the flow" type Baath Party members would receive much opposition or protest.......maybe an analogy to ex-Communist Party types in Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union......no big repurcussions there I don't think.....I was considering the more sordid utilisation of Baath Party members WITH blood on their hands