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pinkeye
04-26-2004, 03:57 PM
Navy will cut sailors and ships, official says
By DALE EISMAN, The Virginian-Pilot
© April 24, 2004 | Last updated 1:27 AM Apr. 24

WASHINGTON — The Navy’s top leadership has decided to pursue radical changes in the size and shape of its forces, likely resulting in the service’s shrinking by “thousands of sailors” and scaling back plans to add a substantial number of ships in the next few years, a senior Navy official said Friday.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the high-ranking official suggested that the success of a “sea swap” experiment, in which crew members have been rotated to keep destroyers on station overseas for up to two years, has led Navy leaders to conclude they can provide the combat power the nation needs with fewer ships than the 375 they had projected.

The Navy now has 295 ships.

In a 90-minute session with reporters, the official sought to “connect the dots” on a series of hardware and manpower initiatives sketched out in recent speeches by Adm. Vern Clark, the chief of naval operations.

The ambitious agenda, much of which would need the blessing of Congress, apparently was a major focus of a meeting of more than 200 admirals at the U.S. Naval Academy earlier this month. The official said it is aimed at making the Navy, and the Marine and Army forces it supports ashore, more agile in pursuing terrorists as well as fighting more traditional land and air forces.


The plan dovetails with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s calls for military “transformation” and the development of forces that can respond more quickly to crises. It puts a premium on the deployment of relatively small groups of Marines, watched over by a network of unmanned planes and protected by Navy fighters and new naval guns that will be able to hit precise targets from 100 or more miles offshore.

The plan also calls for development of “sea bases,” built around a fleet of 12 aircraft-carrier-sized cargo ships with flat decks that could launch large cargo planes to deliver equipment to forces ashore.

“Sea basing” has been one of Clark’s major goals for more than two years. The official said Navy leaders have concluded that the problems the United States encountered last year in securing permission to launch attacks on Iraq from Turkey are likely to be repeated in other countries as American forces pursue terrorist groups.

By stationing forces at sea, the United States avoids having to seek permission from other governments to strike at those terrorists, Clark has said.

The official suggested that the first of the new cargo ships could show up in the Navy’s 2006 budget plan. Along with them, the Navy and Marines are pursuing a new amphibious assault ship, with enough deck space to accommodate perhaps 20 of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighters the two services are developing in conjunction with the U.S. Air Force.

Those planes, which are to have a range of about 800 miles, also are vital to what the official said is the “persistent precision” needed to protect smaller groups of Marines ashore. The official said that while no new target for the size of the fleet has been set, the Navy also remains committed to several major new shipbuilding programs, including a next-generation aircraft carrier, a high-tech destroyer and a high-speed littoral combat ship that could ferry troops and equipment to potential combat zones.

The service lacks the money to pay for all those programs, the official acknowledged. To help close the gap, he said, officials are considering the elimination of three or four of the 12 “Expeditionary Strike Groups” now used to keep Marine forces forward deployed.

By periodically flying in replacement sailors and Marines rather than ferrying the ships to and from Norfolk or San Diego, the service can keep as many Marines forward with eight strike groups as it now has with 12, the official suggested. The 12 strike groups are equally split between the East and West coasts.

The Navy also is studying additional forward basing, including the movement of an aircraft carrier to Guam, where it would be closer to potential trouble spots in the western Pacific and the Arabian Gulf. Officials have refused to speculate on whether that carrier would come from the Atlantic or Pacific fleet.

Five of the Navy’s six Atlantic carriers are based in Norfolk.

In addition to trimming several of the strike groups, the Navy is looking to save money by continuing to cut manpower levels, the official said. With salaries, pensions and health-care costs dramatically rising, “this department cannot keep doing things the way we’ve been doing them in the manpower business,” he asserted.

The DDX destroyer now under development is to sail with just 125 sailors, one third as many as today’s destroyers, and the CVN-21 aircraft carrier is to have 900 fewer sailors than today’s flattops. For every 10,000 sailors trimmed , the Navy can save $1.2 billion annually for other initiatives, the official said.

“The manpower calculus is changing right before our eyes,” the official added. The service is pointing toward an enlisted force dominated by college-trained professionals, some of whom will enter the Navy at ranks that sailors normally take years to achieve, he said.

Reach Dale Eisman at (703) 913-9872 or icemandc@msn.com

FallenAngel
04-26-2004, 05:16 PM
in summation...

bigger ships than we have now...

...crewed with fewer sailors than we have now...

...further and longer deployed than we have now...

Well....it seems to make sense on paper :\

Maine Finn
04-26-2004, 05:19 PM
in summation...

bigger ships than we have now...

...crewed with fewer sailors than we have now...

...further and longer deployed than we have now...

Well....it seems to make sense on paper :\

:cantbeli:

HELEX
04-26-2004, 05:28 PM
It makes sense, Manpower is more and More replaced by technology. Especially in the Navy.

Maine Finn
04-26-2004, 05:33 PM
It makes sense, Manpower is more and More replaced by technology. Especially in the Navy.

No, it doesn't. No matter how much technology you have, you'll still need manpower to make it work and make sure it stays working.

HELEX
04-26-2004, 05:35 PM
Yes, but not as many as before. :D

Maine Finn
04-26-2004, 05:38 PM
Yes, but not as many as before. :D

And that's a good thing.... how?

duck
04-26-2004, 05:41 PM
The "large cargo planes", anyone have information on ongoing projects for a VSTOL/carrier capable cargo lifter?

HELEX
04-26-2004, 05:54 PM
Yes, but not as many as before. :D

And that's a good thing.... how?

Its cheaper and when hit less people die. Just think about it, a civil Supertanker has a maximum crew of 10.

Mr Gently Benevolent
04-26-2004, 06:01 PM
So is there any word on what projects are being trimmed, the DD21 project looked promising.

Maine Finn
04-26-2004, 06:02 PM
Yes, but not as many as before. :D

And that's a good thing.... how?

Its cheaper and when hit less people die. Just think about it, a civil Supertanker has a maximum crew of 10.

I'll agree that it might be cheaper to have less manpower aboard ship and elsewhere, but what does that mean for the combat units? Will they be replaced with technology because it costs less money? The Navy is a military service, and needs bodies in order to function. Cutting down the number of sailors on ships' crews makes no sense. IIRC, the Navy is undermanned as it is right now.

HELEX
04-26-2004, 06:18 PM
A modern naval Battle is managed by some few officers, it can even be fought without a single Man on the whole Ship. All guns are fully automated and the Missiles too. Automatic fire suppression systems do he firefighters job. Its not like in old times Soldiers are manning the Guns.
Marines are still needed for seizing other ships to control the cargo. Some Technicians that do the maintenance, The Combat Officers, the cook, the doc. Thats it.

Israel is experimenting with small unmanned patrol crafts....

Maine Finn
04-26-2004, 06:26 PM
A modern naval Battle is managed by some few officers, it can even be fought without a single Man on the whole Ship. All guns are fully automated and the Missiles too. Automatic fire suppression systems do he firefighters job. Its not like in old times Soldiers are manning the Guns.
Marines are still needed for seizing other ships to control the cargo. Some Technicians that do the maintenance, The Combat Officers, the cook, the doc. Thats it.

Israel is experimenting with small unmanned patrol crafts....

Not all guns are fully automated.

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_040424-N-1045B-035.jpg

That's not considering the crews that work the flight decks of aircraft carriers. You know, these lads:

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_040423-N-9851B-127.jpg

I can accept the idea of small, unmanned patrol craft, but for the larger ships of war, there need to be crews.

wyrm_142
04-26-2004, 06:29 PM
The "large cargo planes", anyone have information on ongoing projects for a VSTOL/carrier capable cargo lifter?

The sea-basing concept is designed around the ablility of C-17 employment from the base. We've flown C-130's off carriers.

HELEX
04-26-2004, 06:43 PM
Yes, crews that are significant smaller than before, and these manned Machinguns are nothing for a Naval Battle. They are in the "covering Marines entering a Ship" role. Thats no naval Battle.

Maine Finn
04-26-2004, 06:46 PM
Yes, crews that are significant smaller than before, and these manned Machinguns are nothing for a Naval Battle. They are in the "covering Marines entering a Ship" role. Thats no naval Battle.

I know it's not a naval battle. The picture was taken during an exercise. My point is that not all have been automated. And even those that have been require manpower, which you have already said. I'm hardly an expert, but it makes little sense to me to reduce the crew size and scrap ships unless the ships are due to be scrapped anyway.

HELEX
04-26-2004, 06:48 PM
Btw....


Thumbing a ride to Bangor to "visit" my best friend

Your living in the area Stephen King usually writes about? :D

Maine Finn
04-26-2004, 06:49 PM
Btw....


Thumbing a ride to Bangor to "visit" my best friend

You're living in the area Stephen King usually writes about? :D

No. Stephen King writes about places all over the State. Bangor is just where he lives.

Nizark
04-27-2004, 03:53 AM
Anyone know about basing a bunch of UAV's on a carrier? i don't know the wing spans, but that could be pretty facinating having like 150-200 armed predators take off and attack a armored column or a house that a terrorist is in? low radar sig, not bad fire power, no chance of US forces being killed, and a swarm of missile firing drones on a target. I don't know about the bandwith issue, but it could probably be overcome.

perdurabo
04-27-2004, 05:40 AM
everything ok but can topic be USNavy? because site is quite international and when i look on topics i don't know what navy you have in mind :)

Ian H
04-27-2004, 07:45 AM
So is there any word on what projects are being trimmed, the DD21 project looked promising.

Its been restructured into the DD(X) programme, as mentioned in the article.

Mr Gently Benevolent
04-27-2004, 07:47 AM
So is there any word on what projects are being trimmed, the DD21 project looked promising.

Its been restructured into the DD(X) programme, as mentioned in the article.
Thanks Ian :)

S'13
04-27-2004, 12:55 PM
Israel is experimenting with small unmanned patrol crafts....

http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/products/nav-protector.htm

Protector - Unmanned Naval Patrol Vehicle

The Protector is an integrated naval combat system, based on unmanned, autonomous, remotely-controlled surface vehicles. Highly maneuverable and stealthy, the Protector can conduct a wide spectrum of critical missions, while eliminating unnecessary risk to personnel and capital assets.
The Protector's anti-terror mission module payload includes sensors and weapon systems. The search radar and the Toplite electro-optical (EO) pod serve for detection, identification and targeting. The weapon systems are based on RAFAEL's Typhoon remote-controlled, stabilized weapon station, capable of operating various small caliber guns. The stabilized weapon station is highly accurate, yielding excellent hit-and-kill probability.

The Protector is mission reconfigurable through its plug-and-play design, allowing utilization of various mission modules, such as Force protection Anti-terror surveillance and reconnaissance, Mine Warfare (MIW), Electronic Warfare (EW) and precision strikes.


http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/images/protector.jpg