Turkish politician fined over genocide denial [Archive]

rister

03-10-2007, 07:55 AM

"A Swiss district court has found a Turkish politician, Doğu Perinçek, guilty of racial discrimination for denying the 1915 Armenian massacre was genocide.

The court in Lausanne agreed with the prosecutor's demand and handed Perinçek a suspended fine of SFr9,000 ($7,336) as well as a one:off financial penalty of SFr3,000.

The court also ruled that Perinçek would have to pay SFr1,000 to the Swiss:Armenian Association as a symbolic gesture.

The politician, whose left:wing Turkish Workers' Party has no seats in the Turkish parliament, was brought to court after calling the genocide "an international lie" during a public speech in Lausanne in July 2005.

Under the Swiss penal code any act of denying, belittling or justifying genocide is a violation of the country's anti:racism legislation.

And Lausanne is the capital of canton Vaud, one of two Swiss cantons along with Geneva where the parliaments have voted in recent years to recognise the Armenian massacre as genocide.

Judge Pierre:Henri Winzap accused Perinçek of being "a racist" and "an arrogant provocateur" who was familiar with Swiss law on historical revisionism.

According to Winzap, the politician's action "appears to have racist and nationalist motives". The Armenian genocide is "an established historical fact according to the Swiss public", he added.

Perinçek's lawyers have called into question the authority of the district court to hear such a case. The Turkish politician said he would appeal against the verdict, which he called "racist and imperialist".

He admitted in court earlier in the week that there had been massacres but said there could be no talk of genocide. "I have not denied genocide because there was no genocide," he argued.

Armenians maintain the mass killings in 1915 were genocide, a charge Turkey disputes."

magic_flight

03-10-2007, 09:02 AM

good news!

no one can -or should- humiliate the suffering of millions of people.

[WDW]Megaraptor

03-10-2007, 12:44 PM

good news!

no one can -or should- humiliate the suffering of millions of people.

Where do you draw the line?

Will claiming that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had military significance become illegal too? What about claiming that accounts of violence in, say, Iraq, are exaggerated? Who decides what happened for real and what didn't when enforcing these types of laws?

Canadian2urk

03-10-2007, 05:29 PM

Megaraptor;2360133']Where do you draw the line?

Will claiming that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had military significance become illegal too? What about claiming that accounts of violence in, say, Iraq, are exaggerated? Who decides what happened for real and what didn't when enforcing these types of laws?

They dont... They only listen to one side of the story. Talk about freedom of speech..:fork:

It's pretty obvious by now that Turkey is not going to accept this "genocide" claim, they have been "denying" for how long now?? like 92 yrs now...:roll:

lets not forget, Turkey has even invited ANY 3rd party countries to join the Turkish-Armenian History Commitee... why don't the Swiss offer some Historians to join this commitee, if they know so much?

Here is the Turkish point of view on the issue according to the Turkish Embassy located in Ottawa, Canada.
(probably the same P.O.V of almost ALL Turkish members on this forum)

http://www.e-konsolosluk.net/eLibrary/eLibrary_Main.aspx

be sure to read "The Armenian Problem and International Law" , feel free to check out other related ones if you still dont believe your eyes.

[WDW]Megaraptor

03-10-2007, 06:18 PM

I have no sympathy whatsoever for Armenian genocide denial.

I just believe freedom of speech and its brother freedom of religion to be the foundations of a free and democratic society.

I also think that banning certain types of political speech only encourages it. For example, in the US where racist political organizations are legal they don't even get enough support to get their candidate's names on the ballot. While in Europe they occasionally win a parliamentary seat or 2.

apm

03-10-2007, 06:35 PM

now the same principle discussion can flame up again. however with no real results. i for my part have come to the conclusion that concerning the western world two parties are opponents in this matter: one party, chiefly consisting of the english-speaking states which see such statements as covered by the freedom of speech, and the mainly central-european states and additionally the states of the affected people on the other side, for example israel or armenians that value the denial of a fact as a crime when this denial goes along with the intention to insult someone.

this legal understanding is different enough to make it unnecessary to waste efforts with debating about it. i have forced myself to accept both points of view in this issue, but i see it only reluctantly if one calls the second opinion undemocratic. democracy can have many faces. the exemplary used democracy of the united states for example knows the death penalty or extraordinary trials for terror suspects which might again be valued as undemocratic by someone else.

Canadian2urk

03-10-2007, 07:45 PM

Megaraptor;2360600']I have no sympathy whatsoever for Armenian genocide denial.

I just believe freedom of speech and its brother freedom of religion to be the foundations of a free and democratic society

These 2 sentences are contradicting each other. It sounds quite silly actually...

how can you talk about "free of speech" an its brother "freedom of religion" when you slam the door in our face when we express our opinion? by saying you have no sympathy whatsoever for Armenian "genocide" denial, you are basically accepting only one point of view as the truth. therefore, You don't believe the Turkish P.O.V to the slightest bit.

not very democratic if you ask me....

Clearday-TRForce

03-10-2007, 08:03 PM

@ magic flight;

this is your post in http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106829

and this is your second post in http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=107058&page=2

it shows that you dont know what you write....and typical hypo manner of you. Get rest...p-) political minded opinions is nonsense and unvalued when true historical things there and no any conclusion what is right or wrong!!! and there is no any ***international genocide court**** decision about so-called Armenian genocide. Why?

[WDW]Megaraptor

03-10-2007, 08:27 PM

These 2 sentences are contradicting each other. It sounds quite silly actually...

how can you talk about "free of speech" an its brother "freedom of religion" when you slam the door in our face when we express our opinion? by saying you have no sympathy whatsoever for Armenian "genocide" denial, you are basically accepting only one point of view as the truth. therefore, You don't believe the Turkish P.O.V to the slightest bit.

not very democratic if you ask me....

Like I said, I don't agree with your views at all, just with your right to express them. Just like I have a right to express my opinions about your views.

Democracy doesn't mean accepting all views as correct.

Canadian2urk

03-10-2007, 11:34 PM

Alright, understood. (imo, there was no genocide. LOL, you prolly already knew my opinion, but i just had to rub it in.)

on topic,

I'm sure Perincek will do just fine with his 90kg of historical documents at the European Court of Human Rights.p-)
http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-24033.html

Martel

03-11-2007, 05:39 AM

Good news.

Mahir

03-11-2007, 05:53 AM

so there isn't freedom of speech in Turkey but there is in Europe huh ?
LMAO

Calanen

03-11-2007, 05:59 AM

@ magic flight;

this is your post in http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106829

and this is your second post in http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=107058&page=2

and there is no any ***international genocide court**** decision about so-called Armenian genocide. Why?

Because there was no such body to make such a decision in 1915. Nuremburg Trials happened after WW2. A long time after 1915. Turkey's treatment of the Armenians was disgraceful, but what is worse is that is continually denied. Turkey needs to be man enough to admit it, and move on. Stop the whole head in the sand revisionist documentary. It's like the neonazis who want to say there was no Holocaust. If Turkey wants to get into the EU it needs to start fessing up, and stop this bs.

Neutral countries like the USA, Britain and France all saw this take place with their diplomats, and Turkey created special ministries to take all of the property and possessions from the Armenians. Even your allies at the time, the Germans took photos of what happened.The Parliamentary debates of the time even record one politician arguing against this happening, Senator Ahmed Riza - if it didn't happen, what was he arguing about?

They killed 1.5 million Armenians. There are photographs of this occurring.

And yes, I admit our nations treatment of Aboriginal people has been disgraceful until the last 30 years or so in my country too before you throw that back at me.....

apm

03-11-2007, 06:22 AM

They killed 1.5 million Armenians. There are photographs of this occurring.

(imo, there was no genocide. LOL, you prolly already knew my opinion, but i just had to rub it in.

thats hilarious. imagine the following: canadian2urk has knowledge about those photographes but he still denies any circumstances of a genocide by the turks against the armenians. does that mean he has just another impression of that part of history or does that mean he wants do deny his nations guilt in this case? just because this contrary some lawmakers felt they should make it punishable if one denies a fact without an honest intention.

Megaraptor]
Democracy doesn't mean accepting all views as correct.

some democracies even find it necessary to prevent some idiots from expressing their 'opinion' to hinder a disturbing of the living together in their countries.
as i said, there are many forms of democracy in western nations and one cannot generalize them all as no good forms of democracy. the situation in the concerning country is determining how democracy must look like, and every form has advantages and disadvantages as i tried to explain with my first point here. it only depends on the view of that one who wants to judge about the governmental form.

signatory

03-11-2007, 06:47 AM

so there isn't freedom of speech in Turkey but there is in Europe huh ?
LMAO

Is that a acknowledgement placing Turkey outside of Europe ?

Might want to keep in your head that Switzerland is not a EU nor a UN member so broad generalisations is nothing but stupid.

Litti

03-11-2007, 06:53 AM

There can never be absolute freedom of speech. You cant insult another person without expecting some sort of punishment from the government for example. There are many restrictions in place which are necessary.

We are on a dangerous path if we allow these individuals to spread their hatred and deny the holocausts ever happened. If we cant learn from the past and accept our mistakes the future doesnt look too bright now does it?

A fine is a suitable punishment, we are not living under fascism after all. Just remind this idiot what decent, caring, behaviour is.

rister

03-11-2007, 07:21 AM

Some good news: SWITZERLAND BECOMES THE 190TH STATE TO JOIN THE UNITED NATIONS
(10 September 2002)

Clearday-TRForce

03-11-2007, 08:26 AM

Because there was no such body to make such a decision in 1915. Nuremburg Trials happened after WW2. A long time after 1915. Turkey's treatment of the Armenians was disgraceful, but what is worse is that is continually denied. Turkey needs to be man enough to admit it, and move on. Stop the whole head in the sand revisionist documentary. It's like the neonazis who want to say there was no Holocaust. If Turkey wants to get into the EU it needs to start fessing up, and stop this bs.

Neutral countries like the USA, Britain and France all saw this take place with their diplomats, and Turkey created special ministries to take all of the property and possessions from the Armenians. Even your allies at the time, the Germans took photos of what happened.The Parliamentary debates of the time even record one politician arguing against this happening, Senator Ahmed Riza - if it didn't happen, what was he arguing about?

They killed 1.5 million Armenians. There are photographs of this occurring.

And yes, I admit our nations treatment of Aboriginal people has been disgraceful until the last 30 years or so in my country too before you throw that back at me.....

On the other hand, there is weird when an australian discuss a so-called genocide...Dear Australian, What about your genocides? why dont you only interest in armenian ones? political figures...and hypo manners all around...

There are lot's of things that are denied in Turkey to it's citizens.
Your treatment of Christians is appalling. Until Turkey changes it's ways Europe should not even consider it for membership.

illisional...and no one cares eu expect government here.And their interests about politics, nothing more.

Martel

03-11-2007, 08:39 AM

Is that a acknowledgement placing Turkey outside of Europe ?
Sure, which intelligent person would place Turkey in Europe ?

digrar

03-11-2007, 08:50 AM

On the other hand, there is weird when an australian discuss a so-called genocide...Dear Australian, What about your genocides? why dont you only interest in armenian ones? political figures...and hypo manners all around...

I don't think you'll find many people in Australia denying that we did some bad things to our indigenous people back in the bad old days.

Calanen

03-11-2007, 09:12 AM

On the other hand, there is weird when an australian discuss a so-called genocide...Dear Australian, What about your genocides? why dont you only interest in armenian ones? political figures...and hypo manners all around...

illisional...and no one cares eu expect government here.And their interests about politics, nothing more.

Its interesting, I expressly said, I dont deny what happened to the Aboriginal people. I put that in there expressly. Because I knew the first thing that some people would say, is 'but what about YOU!!!'. If you want to make another thread about the Aboriginal people then do so and I will deal with it. Still doesn't excuse the denial of the Armenian holocaust.

As to 'genocides' plural I don't think there was more than one, and arguably not even one. Australia did not in relatively recent times, say, 1915 organise a special ministry to execute 1.5 million Aboriginals as you did with the Armenians, confiscate their property and then deny it ever happened. And worse, you are still denying it ever happened.

The problems with the Aboriginals while appalling were in a different era largely, and are on record and not denied. While any loss of life is a tragedy, the Australians never engaged in the calculated and systematic massacre of Aboriginals on the scale approaching the Armenian massacre.

And even if we had - it still does not explain or justify at *all* denying the Armenian masscares and holocaust.

[WDW]Megaraptor

03-11-2007, 01:00 PM

some democracies even find it necessary to prevent some idiots from expressing their 'opinion' to hinder a disturbing of the living together in their countries.

But like I said, where do you draw the line as to what political speech is acceptable and what isn't?

If I say the Holocaust never happened, should that be illegal?

What about denying that Stalin killed millions of his own people? Should that be illegal as well?

Should denying any genocide be illegal? What if there really was a genocide that never happened? What happens if you argue that it didn't happen?

-------------------------------------------------------

What it all comes down to is the government determining what is true and what isn't. That's not something for the government to legislate.

dorian

03-11-2007, 02:01 PM

iran is more democratic than europe. year is 2007. shame on you swiss.

Freibier

03-11-2007, 02:07 PM

iran is more democratic than europe. year is 2007. shame on you swiss.
I don't think so

dorian

03-11-2007, 02:09 PM

ok, iran is more democratic than swiss. year is 2007. shame on you swiss.

theholeinthedonut

03-11-2007, 02:13 PM

Dorian, I really hate to brake the news to you......but.........I'm afraid there isn't a single guy or gal in the whole of Switzerland that gives a rat's ass about what you think about "swiss.2007."

mountainbear

03-11-2007, 02:15 PM

ok, iran is more democratic than swiss. year is 2007. shame on you swiss.

You should be ashamed of your stupidity.
The guy was not fined simply for denying Armenian genocide but for voicing it in a racist way.

dorian

03-11-2007, 02:55 PM

The guy was not fined simply for denying Armenian genocide but for voicing it in a racist way.

ok, what did he say? what was the his racist way?

Vorian

03-11-2007, 03:07 PM

ok, iran is more democratic than swiss. year is 2007. shame on you swiss.

rofl rofl Obviously you have never been in neither.

PS: Have you noticed the similarity of our usernames?

[WDW]Megaraptor

03-11-2007, 08:27 PM

You should be ashamed of your stupidity.
The guy was not fined simply for denying Armenian genocide but for voicing it in a racist way.

It shouldn't matter, he can be an idiot if he wants...he's not hurting anyone (hurt feelings don't count).

dorian

03-11-2007, 08:34 PM

In Europe: idiot = democrat

Canadian2urk

03-11-2007, 08:56 PM

on related news. p-)

Armenian Historian bows out of Harput Dig

Yusuf Halacoglu, head of the Turkish Historical Society (TTK), stated yesterday that despite saying earlier he would participate in the project, an Armenian historian has now decided against jointly excavating an alleged mass burial site.

Holding a press conference at the TTK's offices, Halacoglu said that he had accepted a proposal by Ara Sarafian to work together to look into allegations of a mass grave. "We have been in contact via email," said Halacoglu. "In the email I sent him on Feb. 26, I told him not to take some stories published in papers into consideration. I proposed we meet face to face to set a date of the work, principles, those who will participate in the commission and which archives will be investigated. I also asked him to write in Turkish as he speaks perfect Turkish."

Halacoglu said that he got a negative reply from Sarafian. "He wrote that he has been following the developments in the Turkish media and was sorry he will not be carrying out the common project," said the historian. "Sarafian said that he thought the project would be productive for both sides. He wrote, 'If, contrary to what you said, well-kept Ottoman archives are lacking, we can't make any progress,' adding that he hopes to work together on new projects. Following his message I sent him an email, but haven't gotten an answer."

Stating that he received a press release from the Gomidas Institute on Thursday saying that they couldn't conduct the research, Halacoglu said that they were supposed to conduct the research together in line with the proposal. "We were planning to examine foreign archives, as well as Ottoman archives and look at the report of then U.S. Consul Leslie Davis," he said.

Citing an article from the March 2 issue of the Agos newspaper, Halacoglu said that there was about him, but more important was another saying, "The diaspora is opposing Sarafian." "I think this news clearly shows why Sarafian has given up," he said.

http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-24034.html

You people are talkin about impossible scenarios...
"Turkey just needs to admit" rofl

why not just look for dialogue?
You can't just charge someone of a crime without going to International Court of Law with evidence to prove your case. Accusations dont mean **** without proof, or else its purely political.... Nothing else!

Only Gregorian Armenians were subjected to relocation. Catholic an Protestant Armenians were left outside this process. The fact that only one of these groups were transferred shows that Ottomans did not feel racial hatred against the Armenians as a whole. This biggest group(Gregorian) was situated in the path of the advancing Russian Army which also shared similiar creed as the Orthodox Russians.

as soon as these Gregorian Armenians started collaborating with the Russian invaders to establish a "New Armenia" on Ottoman lands, it became a security threat for the Ottomans, which then rendered the relocation imperative from a military standpoint.

[WDW]Megaraptor

03-11-2007, 09:11 PM

What about the Assyrian Genocide? Did that not happen either?

Calanen

03-11-2007, 10:15 PM

on related news. p-)

http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-24034.html

You people are talkin about impossible scenarios...
"Turkey just needs to admit" rofl

why not just look for dialogue?
You can't just charge someone of a crime without going to International Court of Law with evidence to prove your case. Accusations dont mean **** without proof, or else its purely political.... Nothing else!

as soon as these Gregorian Armenians started collaborating with the Russian invaders to establish a "New Armenia" on Ottoman lands, it became a security threat for the Ottomans, which then rendered the relocation imperative from a military standpoint.

We are not charging *someone* with a crime, we are saying Turkey committed genocide, a nation state. The protections to accused persons and the presumption of innocence have nothing to do with the responsibility of a nation state for genocide.

There is truckloads of proof. Thousands of photographs, reports from diplomats, and the records of the Turkish parliament implementing its program of genocide.

Even if you suspected persons within the Armenians for collaborating, you arrest them and charge them. You don't attempt to exterminate their whole race.

Turkey needs to be man enough to admit what it did wrong - not make feeble claims to uphold the right to the presumption of innocence to mean they never did it.

The reference to international courts of law is just ridiculous, they did not exist at the time, that is in 1915.

Canadian2urk

03-11-2007, 10:16 PM

^^ seems like i'm talkin to a wall. no hope.:bash:
It seems you even deleted a very important part of my quote.

There is truckloads of proof. Thousands of photographs, reports from diplomats, and the records of the Turkish parliament implementing its program of genocide.

Then why doesnt Armenia want to take this to International court if they want to prove the Turks are guilty??

The reference to international courts of law is just ridiculous, they did not exist at the time, that is in 1915.

yea its very ridiculous because Armenian "genocide" is purely political, nothing else!

in order to get your land reparations, you HAVE to go through International Court of law to prove your case. even if intl courts didn't exist back then, 3rd party countries still kept track of their history.

ANY 3rd party country is invited to to take part in the History commision.
how much longer can we argue about this issue?

PPSH41

03-11-2007, 11:16 PM

Though I think this polititian is a moron, and what he said is rediculous and distastful, its quite disconcerting that someone can get punished for political speak. I could understand if what he said was inappropriate for television as far as against regulations within those governing bodies. Honestly he can say whatever he wants, its his career hes ruining. I don't like being told what I can and can't say. Whats next, the thought police? We're not far off it seems.

dorian

03-12-2007, 05:40 AM

Then why doesnt Armenia want to take this to International court if they want to prove the Turks are guilty.

Armenia doesn't want to take this to International court , because armenian genocide is a lie. They have not proof. It is simple. What can you expect from a terrorist country?

Calanen

03-12-2007, 06:20 AM

I am not sure how many times I need to say this:

THERE IS NO 'INTERNATIONAL COURT' FOR THE ARMENIANS TO TAKE THIS ANYWHERE - IT HAPPENED WHEN THERE WAS NO INTERNATIONAL COURT IN 1915.

THE PEOPLE INVOLVED ARE ALL DEAD, THE WITNESSES ARE ALL DEAD, THERE WOULD BE NO ONE FOR THE COURT TO TRY AND NO JURISDICTION BECAUSE BOTH THE APPLICABLE LAWS AND THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE DID NOT EXIST THEN OR ANYTIME SOON THEREAFTER.

Please excuse the bold, but it seemed that the message was not getting through. Despite me saying it a number of times.

Please refer to the bold above whenever you feel the need to again post 'Armenians know this lie - because they dont go international court' or variations on the above.

Vorian

03-12-2007, 07:45 AM

Well said Calanen

Mahir

03-12-2007, 11:55 AM

Is that a acknowledgement placing Turkey outside of Europe ?

Might want to keep in your head that Switzerland is not a EU nor a UN member so broad generalisations is nothing but stupid.

only a little part of Turkey is in Europe, % 85+ is in Asia.
not only Switzerland, France has just accepted those anti freedom of speech things too, and there will be others in the future too.

Atlantic Friend

03-12-2007, 11:59 AM

only a little part of Turkey is in Europe, % 85+ is in Asia.
not only Switzerland, France has just accepted those anti freedom of speech things too, and there will be others in the future too.

Mazir, how do you stand on the issue of Section 301 of the Turkish Penal Code being used to threaten Turkish scholars acknowledging the existence of the Armenian genocide with jail and/or fines ?

Mahir

03-12-2007, 12:01 PM

Mahir

03-12-2007, 12:04 PM

Mazir, how do you stand on the issue of Section 301 of the Turkish Penal Code being used to threaten Turkish scholars acknowledging the existence of the Armenian genocide with jail and/or fines ?

our government is working on that section to change it slightly which is the best rather than removing it forever imo, but there are same kinds of sections in many countries in the EU, also in France if I'm not wrong.

SPROCKET

03-12-2007, 12:23 PM

Laws such as the Swiss one this **** was charged under make me uneasy. Restriction of speech could be a slippery slope; one day your prosecuting people for holocaust denial, the next it's for insulting Swissness because they don't like Swiss Miss Cocoa. Besides the stupid should be allowed their say, it makes mocking them so much easier.

Atlantic Friend

03-12-2007, 03:31 PM

our government is working on that section to change it slightly which is the best rather than removing it forever imo, but there are same kinds of sections in many countries in the EU, also in France if I'm not wrong.

I am not aware of any section of the French penal code putting you to jail for offending Frenchness as such, but there are of course fines for defiling the flag, and things like that.

I personally think it's stupid to fine or jail people for defending a historical thesis. If they're right, they're right, and the sooner a nation deals with it history, the better. If they're wrongm, they're wrong, and academic arguments should be enough to demonstrate they are. Putting a police baton in every nation;s history hook has already been attempted in the past, usuyally by dreadful regimes with dreadful results.

Is Youtube still banned, BTW ?

Mahir

03-12-2007, 03:58 PM

But the point is, history is based on documents, real documents which reflect the past objective. You cant argue about what happened/not happaned in the past. What we say is, if you have those documents share with us, otherwise it's just lying.

Youtube's ban was removed 2-3 days ago by the decision of a higher court. But still some people are trying to add videos about Atatürk,Turkish flag etc, but youtube removes them immediately after the ban.

[WDW]Megaraptor

03-12-2007, 04:42 PM

Calanen

03-12-2007, 05:50 PM

But the point is, history is based on documents, real documents which reflect the past objective. You cant argue about what happened/not happaned in the past. What we say is, if you have those documents share with us, otherwise it's just lying.

There are loads of documents of records kept by the Americans, the Germans (who were your allies), the British, the French and the Russians. But you will just say they are forged or done with photoshop, right?

Mahir

03-13-2007, 10:25 AM

There are loads of documents of records kept by the Americans, the Germans (who were your allies), the British, the French and the Russians. But you will just say they are forged or done with photoshop, right?

ok they are free to show it to our government, we are ready to discuss but although they "have" those documents, they dont share them with us guess why? :>

Mahir

03-13-2007, 10:26 AM

Megaraptor;2364694']So instead of banning YouTube the Turkish government is forcing them to remove stuff it doesn't like?

:cantbeli:

Talk about totally missing the point...

Our government is not forcing them, its Youtube's own decision to remove those videos.

Vorian

03-13-2007, 11:17 AM

ok they are free to show it to our government, we are ready to discuss but although they "have" those documents, they dont share them with us guess why? :>

http://www.answers.com/topic/armenian-massacres
http://cgi.ebay.com/1896-Ottoman-Armenian-Genocide-Constantinople-w-photo_W0QQitemZ330095679310QQcmdZViewItem

Just google. And I didn't post sites like thearmeniangenocide.com or turkkillers.com etc etc. These are as un-biased I could find in two minutes search. The documents are open and free for everyone to see, except those that pretend to be blind.

Mahir

03-13-2007, 03:48 PM

http://www.answers.com/topic/armenian-massacres
http://cgi.ebay.com/1896-Ottoman-Armenian-Genocide-Constantinople-w-photo_W0QQitemZ330095679310QQcmdZViewItem

Just google. And I didn't post sites like thearmeniangenocide.com or turkkillers.com etc etc. These are as un-biased I could find in two minutes search. The documents are open and free for everyone to see, except those that pretend to be blind.

try to show it to our experts in any international court, if you trust your "documents" so much.

Vorian

03-13-2007, 04:07 PM

Canadian2urk

03-13-2007, 07:02 PM

Mahir, the truth is tha all the world knows that this genocide happened. Now if they recognise it officially (most EU countries, Russia etc), ban its denial (Austria) or don't recognise it officialy for political reasons(USA), it doesn't matter. It happened and it's as real as the Holocaust.

22 countries is the whole world? how come none of these countries can submit historians to the History committee? remember.. Turkey's stance on this issue havent changed since then, what makes you think its going to change now?
get lost troll.:bash:

signatory

03-13-2007, 08:56 PM

So what are you afraid of?

Canadian2urk

03-14-2007, 04:22 AM

So what are you afraid of?

nothing.

why would i be? Turkish archives are open to anyone. Turks have nothing to hide. (As you can see by the "Harput Dig" article i posted on pg.3 , 3rd post.)

who offers dialogue instead of this endless cycle of argueing?

**cough**cough* Joint Turkish/Armenian History commission with any 3rd party country invited to take part*cough*

Calanen

03-14-2007, 04:59 AM

try to show it to our experts in any international court, if you trust your "documents" so much.

I am at a loss to understand the constant international court references. Even after I patiently a number of times, and then not so patiently in bold and caps explained:

There was no International Court in 1915.

Also, Turkey (surprise surprise) is not a signatory to the Rome Statute of the International Court.

So how can anyone present anything there about Turkey, (putting aside the Armenian genocide) even now, when you are not even a member of the International Criminal Court.

Turkey will not face up to its past, and they are just denying something that is taken for granted by the entire Western world, and all of Europe. Its in the same category as denying the Jewish holocaust. The more you say it, the more you are going to alienate Turkey from the rest of the world. If you want to be part of the EU, you are going to have to face up to this fact.

As for documents, type: armenian genocide in google. You will come up with hundreds of documents. Hundreds of photos.

But they are all faked apparently.... The US faked their diplomatic documents. The French faked their diplomatic documents. The Russians faked their diplomatic documents. The Germans faked their documents, even though they were your allies. The Germans also faked hundreds of photos that they took while they your allies. So did the Austrians. Countries that were fighting a war against each other, took a breather from killing each other's troops in WWI to collaborate in forging Armenian genocide documents...with the ancient versions of Photoshop and Microsoft paint....just to embarass Turkey ....or so you would have us believe.

And therefore the entire world, every other country in Europe, during WW1, on both sides of the conflict, engaged in a huge conspiracy to make Turkey look bad...manufactured this genocide...faked the photos...faked the documents... and the Armenians were in on it.

Or maybe more likely, Turkey just killed 1.5 million people and was so ashamed of their actions, even 90 years later, that they try still to cover it up. That's more probable than a giant conspiracy involving all of Europe.

Vorian

03-14-2007, 07:22 AM

22 countries is the whole world? how come none of these countries can submit historians to the History committee? remember.. Turkey's stance on this issue havent changed since then, what makes you think its going to change now?
get lost troll.:bash:

If anyone can compare our posts, he can easily understand who is the troll here.
Anyway, in my post I say specificly that the world knows, even if the countries haven't officially recognised it.

Russian_dude

03-14-2007, 09:11 AM

ok, iran is more democratic than swiss. year is 2007. shame on you swiss.

I can go out into the streets of Geneva and say "Prophet Muhamed is a %^^%#&^#!!!!!". Can I do that in Teheran?

Russian_dude

03-14-2007, 09:12 AM

Man, the Turks commited so many genocides in history, they lost count. The Balkans, Greece, Armenia. Heck it took the Russians to stop the worst of it.

achilles

03-14-2007, 03:02 PM

The Turks will never admit the Armenian Genocide, or any other genocide they committed. They are entitled to denying / distorting their history, as well as the history of others. This is the official line of the Turkish "deep state". A conglomeration of quasi-democracy with authoritarian stratocracy.

My experience on these boards suggests that arguying with the Turks over their genocides is equal to banging my head against the wall.

Move on...no conclusions to be drawn here

Canadian2urk

03-14-2007, 04:34 PM

updates:

Perincek appeals Swiss verdict on 'genocide' denial

The New Anatolian with AP / Lausanne
14 March 2007

Font Size: default (http://javascript:changeFontSize('100','habermetni');) medium (http://javascript:changeFontSize('130','habermetni');) large (http://javascript:changeFontSize('150','habermetni');)
A Turkish politician has filed an appeal against a racism conviction by a Swiss court for denying that the early 20th century deaths of Armenians was genocide, his lawyer said Monday.

Lawyer Laurent Moreillon said that Dogu Perincek, the leader of the Turkish Workers' Party (IP), had lodged the appeal with the Cantonal Court in Vaud, where he was convicted by a lower tribunal earlier this week and ordered to pay a fine of 3,000 Swiss francs ($2,450), along with a suspended penalty of 9,000 francs.

Perincek was charged with breaking Swiss law by denying during a visit to Switzerland in 2005 that the World War I-era deaths of up to 1.5 million Armenians amounted to genocide. He has since repeated the claim, including during his trial earlier this week. Perincek accused the judge of "racial hatred" toward Turkey and said he would appeal the verdict with Switzerland's Supreme Court.

Perincek also said that he would take his case to the European Court of Human Rights if necessary.

The IP leader, who submitted 90 kilograms of historical documents, argued there had been no genocide against Armenians, but there had been "reciprocal massacres."

The case was seen as a test of whether it is a violation of Switzerland's anti-racism law to deny that the Turks committed genocide in the deaths. The legislation has previously been applied to Holocaust denial.

The case has caused diplomatic tension between the Alpine republic and Turkey, which insists Armenians were killed in civil unrest during the tumultuous collapse of the Ottoman Empire and not in a planned campaign of genocide.

In his closing statement, Judge Pierre-Henri Winzap described the defendant as an intelligent and cultivated person, but added that to deny the Armenian genocide was an arrogant provocation because it was an accepted historical fact.

The Turkish Foreign Ministry, in a written statement on Friday, expressed Ankara's uneasiness with the Swiss court's decision.

Saying that the decision would not be accepted by Turkey, the statement added, "We hope that decision will be corrected by independent Swiss judicial officials which we believed that there were in Switzerland."

Turkey strongly opposes the claims that its predecessor state, the Ottoman government, caused the Armenian deaths in a planned genocide. The Turkish government has said the toll is wildly inflated and that Armenians were killed or displaced in civil unrest during the empire's collapse and conditions of World War I. Ankara's proposal to Yerevan to set up a joint commission of historians to study the disputed events is still awaiting a positive response from the Armenian side.

After French lawmakers voted last October to make it a crime to deny that the claims were genocide, Turkey said it would suspend military relations with France.

http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-24211.html

quoted by me earlier..

in order to get your land reparations, you HAVE to go through International Court of law to prove your case. even if intl courts didn't exist back then, 3rd party countries still kept track of their history.

ANY 3rd party country is invited to to take part in the History commision.
how much longer can we argue about this issue?

Calanen

03-15-2007, 04:24 AM

you HAVE to go through International Court of law to prove your case. even if intl courts didn't exist back then, 3rd party countries still kept track of their history.

I will keep this short and to the point, I'll try again:

How does anyone take Turkey to 'International Court' when Turkey is not a member of the Treaty of Rome that set up the International Criminal Court? If you can answer this question, I could write a fascinating paper on being able to compel non-member states to participate in International Judicial proceedings.

If you did take Turkey to that Court, putting to one side they are not a member of this Court or the Treaty that created it- how would it have jurisdiction if the events in 1915 happened before the Court existed, given the Court it was set up in 1953?

Why do we need a court hearing? There is no accused. There are no living victims (I assume, could be wrong..) There is no case. So what exactly would the Court do, even if we all managed to somehow get the case in front of it?

There is no UN Court of Settling Historical Disputes.

achilles

03-15-2007, 03:10 PM

I will keep this short and to the point, I'll try again:

How does anyone take Turkey to 'International Court' when Turkey is not a member of the Treaty of Rome that set up the International Criminal Court? If you can answer this question, I could write a fascinating paper on being able to compel non-member states to participate in International Judicial proceedings.

If you did take Turkey to that Court, putting to one side they are not a member of this Court or the Treaty that created it- how would it have jurisdiction if the events in 1915 happened before the Court existed, given the Court it was set up in 1953?

Why do we need a court hearing? There is no accused. There are no living victims (I assume, could be wrong..) There is no case. So what exactly would the Court do, even if we all managed to somehow get the case in front of it?

There is no UN Court of Settling Historical Disputes.

Speaking about international courts regarding that matter is at best, idiotic, when the following countries have officially recognized and condemned a historical fact: the Armenian Genocide.

Argentina,
Armenia,
Austria,
Belgium,
Canada,
Cyprus,
France,
Greece,
Italy,
Lebanon,
Lithuania,
The Netherlands,
Poland,
Russia,
Slovakia,
Sweden,
Switzerland,
Uruguay,
Vatican City,
Venezuela,
part of the United Kingdom, Wales
and the Parliament of the State of New South Wales, Australia passed a resolution acknowledging and condemning the Armenian Genocide in 1997. Plus, many US states have officially recognized the genocide and it is common knowledge that the US unofficially recognizes it.

Thats enough of an "international court" for me...

dorian

03-15-2007, 03:17 PM

There are nearly 350 countries in the world. Your list is not enough.
Armenian lobbies can't change historical fact.

Yesterday's news: a right decision from Israel.

Parliament of Israel has denied to recognize claim of armenian genocide.

a law plan about recognition of april 28 as armenian genocide day,prepared by rightwinger Meretz party diplomat Haim Oron has been denied by Israel parliament.

Oron said: israel parliement should recognize armenian genocide. This is an obligation to Jews and armenians

Israel has a diplomatic and military relationship with Turkey. Israel has been never recognized armenian claims.

http://www.cnnturk.com/DUNYA/haber_detay.asp?PID=319&haberID=315435

achilles

03-15-2007, 03:45 PM