"Jesus Camp" and GWB

[Firetxmi]

So this really isn't to say that GWB has anything to do with this example, this is more to show that religious nuts and politics coming together is kind of a universal thing... Enjoy!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2c7_1173547096&p=1

[Litti]

Jesus.....

The parents of those children deserve a good kicking, damn indoctrination.

[shocker1]

Man, even I was disturbed by this video. I felt a sinister background in this. Anyway praying for our leaders is not what they are teaching there IMO.


Exd 20: 4-5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:


Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

[Thor]

I'm not a fan of the evangelicals, but the world do need more hardcore christians.

[LaoSexMachine]

Pfffttt. As long as they aren't harming anyone I see nothing wrong. It's a free country.

[Litti]

They are harming the minds of those children.

[Hollis]

Last time I check, they are not Jihading any one's butt... WHO CARES.

[LaoSexMachine]

They are harming the minds of those children.

To each his own. We have enough BS from government, local and federal, on how to raise our kids. Let parents be parents.

Video games-bad
R rate movies -bad

and so on and so on.

[shocker1]

My concern is more along not abiding by principles and using cardboard cutouts as objects of prayer. Praying for our leaders is a good thing, laying hands on images is disturbing.

[Firetxmi]

The speaking in tongues to the cutout was strange too. While I have no problem with them practicing their religion however they feel they need to (without harming anyone), it is nonetheless a little scary.

[LaoSexMachine]

The speaking in tongues to the cutout was strange too. While I have no problem with them practicing their religion however they feel they need to (without harming anyone), it is nonetheless a little scary.


There are some who dance with rattlesnakes. The only thing scary is intolerance.

[Litti]

I just dont like the idea that they are brainwashing these children and trying to impose their own fundamentalism on them. I think people shouldnt get in touch with religion too early in life.

It´s all a bit sad really. Childhood should be for playing, not for praying to Gods. :-|

[Firetxmi]

There are some who dance with rattlesnakes. The only thing scary is intolerance.

They are welcome to practice however they like.

If they start preaching hatred, then we can turn a skeptical eye, if they start acting out on that hatred we can stop them.

If parents want to send their kids to this "Jesus Camp" fine by me, I feel sorry for the kids, but ultimately it is their (or their parents) choice.

I posted the video because on first glance it looks like something you'd see coming out of Iran or Iraq except they are not Muslims they are little American Christian children. It was a shock.

[Thor]

Raise them good. More of this.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7383/templarbattlect9.jpg

[Litti]

Ive seen enough footage from these same camps where young children are saying how specific things are evil, how they want to be holy warriors and so on.

The one running this particular camp, in the video, said to the media that she wants to see these children radicalized so they can change the society when they grow up.

"A lot of people die for God and they (suicide bombers) are not even afraid."

Disgusting....

[LaoSexMachine]

When these kids get older I would bet most of them would rebel. Smoke pot, underage ***, drinking, and shat like that. Hey, it's America.

[MPNFL]

Raise them good. More of this.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7383/templarbattlect9.jpg

we've got enough of that from the other side, we don't need anymore from religion

[Thor]

we've got enough of that from the other side, we don't need anymore from religion
In my opinion that's the whole point, Christianity is under attack and needs to be defended.

[MPNFL]

I think that's the whole point, Christianity is under attack and need to be defended.

then kill terrorists, don't target an entire religion. that's only going to make the situation worse and generate more terrorist morans

[Litti]

Raise them good. More of this.

In my opinion that's the whole point, Christianity is under attack and needs to be defended.

So basically there is nothing different between you and a fundamentalist muslim who wants to see indoctrination and suicide attacks, except you read one book and he reads another.

Yellow apple vs red apple.

[utopia]

In my opinion that's the whole point, Christianity is under attack and needs to be defended.
Let's combat extremism with extremism.
This is clearly the only logical way to deal with the situtation going on in our world today.

[MPNFL]

Let's combat extremism with extremism.
This is clearly the only logical way to deal with the situtation going on in our world today.


haha. exactly, like I said, it will only make the problem worse. You don't fight fire with fire

[Litti]

Maybe Thor should buy a plane ticket to Iraq and go fight for Christianity. I bet your passion and dedication is so high that these children can play football without going to any camps while you scream in the deserts :

The power of christ compels you ! p-)

[justagoodolboy]

Matthew 7:13-20

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[LaoSexMachine]

Ezekiel 25:17



The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you

[Litti]

Doesnt really give the same kick without SLJ

[Thor]

then kill terrorists, don't target an entire religion. that's only going to make the situation worse and generate more terrorist morans
So you're saying you would rather have a strong islam than a strong Christianity?


So basically there is nothing different between you and a fundamentalist muslim who wants to see indoctrination and suicide attacks, except you read one book and he reads another.
Wrong, it's because of the difference I see a reason to fight back. To you right and wrong might be empty words, to me they're not.


Let's combat extremism with extremism.
This is clearly the only logical way to deal with the situtation going on in our world today.
The whole purpose of for example the military is to face extremism with extremism. A strong military is not just a tool, it's an insurance as well.

All countries have an army, their own or somebody elses. That's a saying that can be applied on religion as well.

[Litti]

Why should we have to choose between strong Christianity and strong Islam. I choose a third party candidate! (like it is in Europe)

[MPNFL]

So you're saying you would rather have a strong islam than a strong Christianity?





no, I don't want another war based on religious beliefs from both sides. Let the mujahideen or jihadists call it what they want but this GWOT is not a war of religions but more a war of ideologies.

Edit: I don't mean to glorify the "mujahideen" or the "jihadists", they're all killers to me

[Thor]

Weak Islam and weak Christianity anyone? Looking at the history books and the current political climate, it would probably be for the best eh?
That's not how it works. The world do seem to become more and more polarized. Mixed with (or maybe because of?) globalization it constitutes a lethal mix.


no, I don't want another war based on religious beliefs from both sides. Let the mujahideen or jihadists call it what they want but this GWOT is not a war of religions but more a war of ideologies.
And from what do you think your ideology, judicial system etc. is derived?

[shocker1]

So you're saying you would rather have a strong islam than a strong Christianity?


Wrong, it's because of the difference I see a reason to fight back. To you right and wrong might be empty words, for me they're not.


The whole purpose of for example the military is to face extremism with extremism.

All countries have an army, their own or somebody elses. That's a saying that can be applied on religion as well.
The Christian way to fight the world is to live a life that reflects your love for Jesus. In a way that seeks peace, love and understanding. While proclaiming what the path you chose has done for you. Not to smite with the sword of man but to forgive our enemies for their sins agianst us. Showing our strength in truth of spirit and charity without prejudice. In hope to lead others down that path while respecting the free will of those who do not agree.

[Litti]

Exactly MPNFL. This isnt about Christianity against Islam or the other way around. This is about democracy and personal freedom against extremist beliefs where everything goes by the book. It doesnt really matter in what package that s**t is in, it still stinks.

I choose Rainier Wolfcastle in Simpsons :

By(e) book!

*boom*

[kosse]

The Christian way to fight the world is to live a life that reflects your love for Jesus. In a way that seeks peace, love and understanding. While proclaiming what the path you chose has done for you. Not to smite with the sword of man but to forgive our enemies for their sins agianst us. Showing our strength in truth of spirit and charity without prejudice. In hope to lead others down that path while respecting the free will of those who do not agree.
Thor could not care less for true christian values, he just wants to use christian fundamentalism as a weapon in his personal vendetta against islam.

[justagoodolboy]

The Christian way to fight the world is to live a life that reflects your love for Jesus. In a way that seeks peace, love and understanding. While proclaiming what the path you chose has done for you. Not to smite with the sword of man but to forgive our enemies for their sins agianst us. Showing our strength in truth of spirit and charity without prejudice. In hope to lead others down that path while respecting the free will of those who do not agree.

Amen to that.

[Thor]

The Christian way to fight the world is to live a life that reflects your love for Jesus. In a way that seeks peace, love and understanding. While proclaiming what the path you chose has done for you. Not to smite with the sword of man but to forgive our enemies for their sins agianst us. Showing our strength in truth of spirit and charity without prejudice. In hope to lead others down that path while respecting the free will of those who do not agree.
Forgiveness, yes. Pacifism, no. Surrendering to Evil is not an option.

But for numerous reasons I'm not going to get myself into a theological debate.


Thor could not care less for christian values, he just wants to use christian fundamentalism as a weapon in his personal vendetta against islam.
Speak for yourself and not for others.

[kosse]

Speak for yourself and not for others.
It's quite obvious looking at your posts.

[Thor]

It's quite obvious looking at your posts.
Like I said, speak for yourself. Only God can judge me.

[IraGlacialis]

In my opinion that's the whole point, Christianity is under attack and needs to be defended.
Just substitute "Christianity" for "Islam", and I am sure that you would make the psycho mullahs proud. Then you can subscribe to "Jihadi Daily".

As for this...

Raise them good. More of this.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7383/templarbattlect9.jpg
Sure, raise your kids into a bunch of fanatics who will kill every Jew and Muslim (and possibly a couple Arab Christians), be they man, woman, or child, in their path due to their "infidel" status.

[kosse]

Like I said, speak for yourself. Only God can judge me.
I bet that's what those suicide bombers think too.

[justagoodolboy]

Forgiveness, yes. Pacifism, no.

But for numerous reasons I'm not going to get myself into a theological debate.


Speak for yourself and not for others.

Indeed he did not call for pacifism. However, neither did he call for Holy War. The only nation God ever instructed to conduct war was Israel. In the New Testament Jesus preached, love and peace, but you're right, he did not teach pacifism. However, he also did not teach aggression.

Luke 22:35-38
-Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered.

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.-

The word sword was translated from the Greek word for dirk or dagger, a small sword used for self defense. As Christians, we should worry ourselves with carrying out the Great commission, not with fighting other religions. Do you really think God would let his word and followers be completely destroyed if it was not his will?

edit:There sure have been a lot of theological discussions on this board lately, haven't there?

[Freibier]

Like I said, speak for yourself. Only God can judge me.
God doesn't like hateful people like you, imho.

[shocker1]

Forgiveness, yes. Pacifism, no. Surrendering to Evil is not an option.

But for numerous reasons I'm not going to get myself into a theological debate.



Turning a cheek, forgiving the unthinkable is of the utmost honor to the Lord. Fighting evil on it's turf with blood for blood is exactly what the accuser wants us to do. As far as I am concearned forgivness of our enemies takes more heart, strength and honor than slaying the wicked with the sword. The later is much easier and can poision a good heart. When called to defend your home as an individual it is advisable to forgive those you fight before fighting. That way your call is not tainted with hate.

[Litti]

Only God can judge me.

Lets see how that line works with the IRS.

[IraGlacialis]

Turning a cheek, forgiving the unthinkable is of the utmost honor to the Lord. Fighting evil on it's turf with blood for blood is exactly what the accuser wants us to do. As far as I am concearned forgivness of our enemies takes more heart, strength and honor than slaying the wicked with the sword. The later is much easier and can poision a good heart. When called to defend your home as an individual it is advisable to forgive those you fight before fighting. That way your call is not tainted with hate.
Just reaffirming what you said.

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39

Although I have to admit, I am a believer in lex talionis in many instances. :-(

[justagoodolboy]

Just reaffirming what you said.

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39

Although I have to admit, I am a believer in lex talionis in many instances. :-(

It is good to know that although Jesus taught us to forgive and to "turn the other cheek", by no extent did he teach his followers to be doormats. There are many cases in the gospels where Jesus fled and avoided danger, and ceased fleeing only his work was done and it was time for him to complete his task.

[IraGlacialis]

It is good to know that although Jesus taught us to forgive and to "turn the other cheek", by no extent did he teach his followers to be doormats. There are many cases in the gospels where Jesus fled and avoided danger, and ceased fleeing only his work was done and it was time for him to complete his task.
Of course he didn't want his followers to be walked all over, but he also didn't want them to go out and take revenge on everybody.
Better to defend yourself now than get walked all over, get pissed off, and take revenge later.

[Thor]

Sure, raise your kids into a bunch of fanatics who will kill every Jew and Muslim (and possibly a couple Arab Christians), be they man, woman, or child, in their path due to their infidel status.
Since that's not the Christian way I think you're confusing it with some other religion.

What did Mohammed do with those 700 prisoners in Saudi Arabia?


I bet that's what those suicide bombers think too.
With the difference that I don't believe God will reward anyone for massacring innocents.


God doesn't like hateful people like you, imho.
Imho, some 2000 years ago you would have been there in the crowd, chanting and wanting Jesus crucified.


And yes, I think this thread displays pretty well how Christianity is under attack from both the outside as well as from within.

[kosse]

With the difference that I don't believe God will reward anyone for massacring innocents.

Doesn't make you any less disgusting. Killing civilians reward or no reward is equally despisable in both cases.

[shocker1]

The points I was making is a fundamentalist Christian attitude. All the rest is false doctrine not core Christianity. Those who subscribe to the fundamentals of Christ are not those most refer to as Christain fundamentalist. This tag grew from descriptions of extremist Muslims thus logic says any violent, unforgiving Christian must also be a fundamentalist. Not true but the adjective is tainted by modern religious violence.

[Thor]

Doesn't make you any less disgusting. Killing civilians reward or no reward is equally despisable in both cases.
Are you for real? "No reward" was a bit of an understatement. You're the one talking about killing civilians.

[justagoodolboy]

Of course he didn't want his followers to be walked all over, but he also didn't want them to go out and take revenge on everybody.
Better to defend yourself now than get walked all over, get pissed off, and take revenge later.
Agreed.


One thing all Christians should remember is that this place is full of sin, and there will never be peace.

John 16:33-These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

[IraGlacialis]

Since that's not the Christian way I think you're confusing it with some other religion.

What did Mohammed do with those 700 prisoners in Saudi Arabia?

What did the Crusaders do when they captured Jerusalem? I seriously doubt it was pass around flowers.
Or if you want to get into religious text, what did the Hebrews do when they captured Jericho and other Canaanite cities?

And you are correct in the fact that is not the Christian way. So why say that kids should be raised into Crusaders?
There is a differece between defending your faith and going on a crusade.

[Thor]

What did the Crusaders do when they captured Jerusalem?
According to muslim sources I'm sure they ate muslim babies.

Jesus would never have ordered the execution of 700 prisoners like Mohammed did. An obvious difference.


There is a differece between defending your faith and going on a crusade.
IMO Jerusalem should be in Christian hands. Jews, arabs and others should convert.

[AK-Lover]

Their is something very wrong with these evagelical doctrine. Alot of stuff they teach goes against some principles god set forth. To me the ways of Orthodox Christian Church are as close as we will get to the roots of Christianity.

[IraGlacialis]

IMO Jerusalem should be in Christian hands. Jews, arabs and others should convert.
Besides your blatantly bigoted and slightly frightening dogma, Arab is a race, not a religion. There are plenty Arab Christians.

[AK-Lover]

According to muslim sources I'm sure they ate muslim babies.

Jesus would never have ordered the execution of 700 prisoners like Mohammed did. An obvious difference.


IMO Jerusalem should be in Christian hands. Jews, arabs and others should convert.

Agreed

123456

[Thor]

I'm not a fan of these evangelicals either, but IMO they're still Christian brothers.

[kosse]

Are you for real? "No reward" was a bit of an understatement. You're the one talking about killing civilians.
I thought you started about killing innocents. You let me understand that you see no problem killing them - only that your god does not reward for it.

I'll remind you:


With the difference that I don't believe God will reward anyone for massacring innocents.

Here you say that the difference between you and a suicide bomber is that you believe you'll not be rewarded.

[Thor]

Kosse, I'm not even going to comment on that.

[shocker1]

IMO Jerusalem should be in Christian hands. Jews, arabs and others should convert.
Zec 12: 2-3 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

[Litti]

Then again that´s the old testament and to be honest it has been wrong on many accounts.

Like concentrating on the idea that God is going to make all the horses mad in order to make the conquest more difficult. Might not work against SU-30p-)

[Firetxmi]

Its funny. This thread is starting to remind me of Resurrections thread where he basically laid out his "perfect political party" that included demolishing all Mosques and Synagogues and everyone converting to Christianity. Everyone commented on how it was interesting how he really showed his "true colors" despite having over 6000 posts on the board.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106296

I am starting to see this happening to Thor.

[shocker1]

Then again that´s the old testament and to be honest it has been wrong on many accounts. p-)
Well can't say that prediction has not come to pass. Considering the current conditions.p-)

[Litti]

I think it´s past its sell date since all that happened already in the crusades. No wait, the citizens of Jerusalem actually lost that one. Perhaps 1948 then. p-)

[IraGlacialis]

Its funny. This thread is starting to remind me of Resurrections thread where he basically laid out his "perfect political party" that included demolishing all Mosques and Synagogues and everyone converting to Christianity. Everyone commented on how it was interesting how he really showed his "true colors" despite having over 6000 posts on the board.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106296

I am starting to see this happening to Thor.
Even though I am relatively new here, I already suspected that he had an anti-Islamic bias (not just agaist extremists, but against the religion in general).
I was, however, surprised at his comment about converting Jews as well.
Ah well, we will see how this turns out.

[shocker1]

Ok whatever you say, we are getting off the topic anyway. We could go on for hours on this subject and never agree. Lets just agree on the subject at hand that laying hands on a cardboard GWB is disturbing.

[eucalyptus]

Where can you buy those cardboard GWB, I know some people who would love to have one of those.

[shocker1]

I have a picture of GWB in my home office. No hand laying though and Clinton graced my wall when he was Pres. It is a respect thing I inherited from my grand paw.

[IraGlacialis]

I think it´s past its sell date since all that happened already in the crusades. No wait, the citizens lost that fight altough they were not jews. Perhaps 1948 then.
Maybe not, considering the turmoil in the region.
Personally, I am in favor of a joint religious commitee controlling the Holy Land. The committee will consist of the sects of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (i.e. Hasidic, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Sunni, Shiite, etc.). There will also be a provisional goverment below that. Plus rename the place to something like Levantine or Abramestine or something.

Nevermind: back on track. Kissing cutouts of Bush is creepy.

[utopia]

The whole purpose of for example the military is to face extremism with extremism. A strong military is not just a tool, it's an insurance as well.

I completely agree with you.
Let's get the US military to start abducting random Iraqi citizens, saw off their heads, video tape it and put it online.
Also, let's crash B-52s into highly populated Muslims areas.
That'll show'em who they're dealin' with!

I wouldn't consider the US military to be "extremist."
9/11 has brought about some very unsettling elements in our culture. I'm begginning to fear them more than I fear being attacked by a terrorist.

[Kaapeli]

Funny video. I love the way they babble and call it "speaking in tongues".

[Snoshi]

IMO Jerusalem should be in Christian hands. Jews, arabs and others should convert.

Ok.. Here you go little to far...

[Thor]

Its funny. This thread is starting to remind me of Resurrections thread where he basically laid out his "perfect political party" that included demolishing all Mosques and Synagogues and everyone converting to Christianity. Everyone commented on how it was interesting how he really showed his "true colors" despite having over 6000 posts on the board.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106296

I am starting to see this happening to Thor.
Oh, I'm just the same. p-) I never discuss politics or religion IRL hence I let it out on the intraweb instead.


I missed Resurrection's post, but let's remember that he's ~15 years old.

We're a Christian country. We have a cross in our flag, we have a state church, the constitution states that in order to claim the throne the pretendent must be of the pure Christian faith according to the Augsburg confession. When you serve in the army, services are administered by priests from the state church and attendence is not optional, and so on.

The first dedicated mosque I believe was built here in the 1990's. To have a law to preserve the cultural and historical architectural identity of a city shouldn't be a problem, and isn't a problem; with the exception made for oriental mosques and other temples. Religious freedom is one thing, it does not necessarily mean that you should be allowed to erect whatever building you want. I don't think the sovereign state of the Vatican City will ever allow a mosque to built on St. Peter's Square.


Snow podium at a regiment ahead of an outdoor service.
http://www.i19.mil.se/images/local/lucia_altare_06.jpg



I completely agree with you.
Let's get the US military to start abducting random Iraqi citizens, saw off their heads, video tape it and put it online.
This is getting ridiculous.

I of course meant that military force is an example of an extreme measure.


Ok.. Here you go little to far...
I don't think so. Jerusalem is the holiest city of Christianity and as you might know several Popes have ordered it retaken. As for convertion, it's up to each and everyone to do as they please.

[eucalyptus]

When you serve in the army, services are administered by priests from the state church and attendence is not optional, and so on. I´ve served in the army, never seen or heard of a priest.



The first dedicated mosque I believe was built here in the 1990's. To have a law to preserve the cultural and historical architectual identity of a city shouldn't be a problem, and isn't a problem; with the exception made for oriental mosques and other temples. Religious freedom is one thing, it does not necessarily mean that you should be allowed to erect whatever building you want. I don't think the sovereign state of the Vatican City will ever allow a mosque to built on St. Peter's Square.

They are not illegal buildings nor are they built on top of christian churches or any other historical buildings. Most mosques and prayer rooms are in no near vicinity of any dominantly swedish populence areas. I even bet you never saw a mosque in real life besides what they show on TV.

Comparing sweden to vatican.. hehe. Why do you keep diverting topics to swedish muslims all the time anyway?

[Snoshi]

I don't think so. Jerusalem is the holiest city of Christianity and as you might know several Popes have ordered it retaken. As for convertion, it's up to each and everyone to do as they please.

It is for Judaism too.. And right now it is an Israeli city..

[Lefty]

I've ordered the full DVD of this movie and can't wait for it to arrive, some interesting and fascinating stuff, hardcore fundamentalism is. Religion is such a wonderful thing until you get people involved, kind of tragic, every major religion preaches to love your fellow man, and yet religion has caused more wars than anything in human history. I used to think that only a few people in the world were nuts enough to believe that god wants us to kill someone else, as I get older, I'm rapidly finding that isn't the case.

Case and point, goth chick I knew in high school was a hardcore evangelical; drank, smoked, had ***, but believed since she accepted Jesus in his most perfect form, she was immune to sin, as she was a "soldier of God" meant to cleanse the earth of sinners. Sounded kinda fascist to me hehe.

[IraGlacialis]

Religion is such a wonderful thing until you get people involved, kind of tragic, every major religion preaches to love your fellow man, and yet religion has caused more wars than anything in human history. I used to think that only a few people in the world were nuts enough to believe that god wants us to kill someone else, as I get older, I'm rapidly finding that isn't the case.
Religion doesn't cause war, humans do. Religion is just the prettiest excuse to create an otherwise petty reason to go to war. And the reason usually still sounds petty afterwards.

[shocker1]

Case and point, goth chick I knew in high school was a hardcore evangelical; drank, smoked, had ***, but believed since she accepted Jesus in his most perfect form, she was immune to sin, as she was a "soldier of God" meant to cleanse the earth of sinners. Sounded kinda fascist to me hehe.
Humm. I think she needs a bath. Justifying your sin through Jesus is a no no. I know when I do wrong my guilt burns my soul until I visit with God in prayer. Forgivness of sin does not preclude the results of said actions and faith in Jesus does not put you in the ok to sin catagory. As a matter of fact the Lord will turn his blessings from such people. If someone proclaims Christianity and feels no guilt for their sin in humbleness before God they are liers. Flee from them they will harm you more spiritualy than those who do not accept God.

[annihilation]

I'm not a fan of the evangelicals, but the world do need more hardcore christians.

Why do we need more hardcore christians? Why should anyone be hardcore of any religion, it seems to me it only causes more trouble.

[Thor]

I´ve served in the army, never seen or heard of a priest.
I have never heard of anyone who did not attend neither a Korum, Christmas service, nor a Lucia service. We had a couple of muslims in my unit and they did attend.


They are not illegal buildings nor are they built on top of christian churches or any other historical buildings. Most mosques and prayer rooms are in no near vicinity of any dominantly swedish populence areas. I even bet you never saw a mosque in real life besides what they show on TV.
They should be illegal and for the record all areas of this country are dominantly swedish. I don't care where they are situated the point is that they do not conform with the cultural and architectural identity.

Random examples.

Göteborg
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9079/watermarkphprm1.jpg
Malmö
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9944/300pxmalmmoskeic3.jpg
Stockholm
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6985/300pxstockholmsmoskpb4.jpg


Why do we need more hardcore christians? Why should anyone be hardcore of any religion, it seems to me it only causes more trouble.
It doesn't work that way. If you had to choose would you more rather have a strong islam than a strong Christianity?

[eucalyptus]

Im gonna leave this offtopic discussion with one note. In the first picture, it looks ALMOST like any swedish (radhus)... ;)

[annihilation]

It doesn't work that way. If you had to choose would you more rather have a strong islam than a strong Christianity?

Neither, if history is any example christianity was (middle ages) no better than islam, but were brutal, unforgiving and stupid. If I would rather see both groups dead then to have to pick one over the other as to me both are threats to humanity.

[justagoodolboy]

Why do we need more hardcore christians? Why should anyone be hardcore of any religion, it seems to me it only causes more trouble.

There are plenty of "Hardcore Christians". They're not the problem. It's the people who use "Hardcore Christianity" as a way to further their agenda.

[Thor]

Neither, if history is any example christianity was (middle ages) no better than islam, but were brutal, unforgiving and stupid. If I would rather see both groups dead then to have to pick one over the other as to me both are threats to humanity.
Well, IMO that means you pick islam. Welcome to Eurabia.

But don't let these evangelicals symbolize Christianity. They look more like members of some sect or cult.

[annihilation]

Well, IMO that means you pick islam. Welcome to Eurabia.

But don't let these evangelicals symbolize Christianity. They look more like members of some sect or cult.


I wouldn't pick islam, I would rather see humanity end before that.

[justagoodolboy]

You guys do realize that the Christians' Crusades aren't the only war of it's like. The Moors were a muslim army bent on taking over all of France and forcing conversion with the tip of a sword. The majority of muslim nations today (Persia, Afghanistan, Turkey, etc.) became so through invasion and forced conversion. Religion has been an excuse for wars since, well, religion.

[Kaapeli]

You guys do realize that the Christians' Crusades aren't the only war of it's like. The Moors were a muslim army bent on taking over all of France and forcing conversion with the tip of a sword. The majority of muslim nations today (Persia, Afghanistan, Turkey, etc.) became so through invasion and forced conversion. Religion has been an excuse for wars since, well, religion.

The Moors didn't force conversion in Spain nor was it one of their motives for invading France. Moorish Spain was considered the "Golden age" for Jews and Christianity too was well tolerated..

[annihilation]

The Moors didn't force conversion in Spain nor was it one of their motives for invading France. Moorish Spain was considered the "Golden age" for Jews and Christianity too was well tolerated..

Odd, even today the spanish still complain of the "turks".

[SonKev]

Raise them good. More of this.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7383/templarbattlect9.jpg


First of all, these were the crusades, started by the catholic pope at the time, they only used to name of "Christians"

They werent Christians though,

Catholicism is very very different than Christianity, if you are thinking...ive heard of catholic Christians, you are thinking of back than when Christians took the name *c*atholic Christians (LOWER CASE "c") which means universal,

NOTHING to do with the Roman Catholic Church, just to clear a couple things up.

The Crusades were from the Roman Catholics ordered by the current pope at those times, to "purify" the muslims...

I totally disagree with the Crusades as a Christian (murdering of all those people :( :oops:

[SonKev]

Since that's not the Christian way I think you're confusing it with some other religion.

What did Mohammed do with those 700 prisoners in Saudi Arabia?


With the difference that I don't believe God will reward anyone for massacring innocents.


Imho, some 2000 years ago you would have been there in the crowd, chanting and wanting Jesus crucified.


And yes, I think this thread displays pretty well how Christianity is under attack from both the outside as well as from within.

Thor, good job defending Christianity coming from another fellow Christian, Im sorry i couldnt get to this discusion earlier to help you out. <333

Very good job Thor!

God Bless

[Firetxmi]

First of all, these were the crusades, started by the catholic pope at the time, they only used to name of "Christians"

They werent Christians though,

Catholicism is very very different than Christianity, if you are thinking...ive heard of catholic Christians, you are thinking of back than when Christians took the name *c*atholic Christians (LOWER CASE "c") which means universal,

NOTHING to do with the Roman Catholic Church, just to clear a couple things up.

The Crusades were from the Roman Catholics ordered by the current pope at those times, to "purify" the muslims...

I totally disagree with the Crusades as a Christian (murdering of all those people :( :oops:

You are trying to tell me Catholics aren't Christians?

[Calanen]

Ezekiel 25:17



The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you

Ezekial 25:17 doesn't actually say the above, Quentin Tarintino made it up for dramatic effect. It is actually closer to as below, depending on the version you use:

'I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I take vengeance on them.'

[Techmarine1228]

First of all, these were the crusades, started by the catholic pope at the time, they only used to name of "Christians"

They werent Christians though,

Catholicism is very very different than Christianity, if you are thinking...ive heard of catholic Christians, you are thinking of back than when Christians took the name *c*atholic Christians (LOWER CASE "c") which means universal,

NOTHING to do with the Roman Catholic Church, just to clear a couple things up.

The Crusades were from the Roman Catholics ordered by the current pope at those times, to "purify" the muslims...

I totally disagree with the Crusades as a Christian (murdering of all those people :( :oops:

If you know your history, especially with the Dark Ages on the History Channel this past week, you would know more than that. Back during the time of the Crusades, there were only two kinds of Christianity: Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. Martin Luther hadn't had his reformation and started the Protestant movement yet!

And if I remember correctly, one of the Crusades after the fourth is known as the Children's Crusade because the leaders of Europe led some 50,000 kids to the Holy Land to fight the Muslims. Of course, the majority of the kids never made it.

[LaoSexMachine]

Ezekial 25:17 doesn't actually say the above, Quentin Tarintino made it up for dramatic effect. It is actually closer to as below, depending on the version you use:

'I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I take vengeance on them.'

I know what it saids in the bible. Believe it or not I have a bible and a Koran at home even though I'm a Buddhist.

[loganinkosovo]

They are harming the minds of those children.

Public "Education" in America is doing just as much harm and on a much larger scale....:)

[loganinkosovo]

You are trying to tell me Catholics aren't Christians?

"Christians" with a capital C do not believe we are "True" Christians even though Christ gave the Keys of the Church to Paul and not the Rev. Billy Joe Jim Bob.

According to "Christians" we do not take Christ as our Savior....what ever the hell that means.

We take God as our God, Christ as his Son and the Holy Spirit as the third facet of the holy trinity....

"Christians" seem to kick God and the Holy Spirit to the curb and have turned Christ into their God.....

I have come very close to whiping some "Evangelicals" A$$es over this bit of snobery even though I'm not very religious and would worry about the strucural safety of the Church if I ever went to Mass again. :)

[Litti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UWIb4FwHPg

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross" SINCLAR LEWIS

[loganinkosovo]

I know what it saids in the bible. Believe it or not I have a bible and a Koran at home even though I'm a Buddhist.

I always thought the quote "Vengenance is mine sayth the Lord....but he's a little busy at the moment and I though I'd help him out." covers it nicely.......

rofl

[FillTheVoid]

It's much better to instill godly values into those children than shove evolution down their throats imo.

[LaoSexMachine]

Here we go.

[Nano]

Round One Fight!!!

[Litti]

It's much better to instill godly values into those children than shove evolution down their throats imo.

This sentence would sound more logical if evolution was a moral value.

This topic has potential to reach quite a lot pages, hehe. But common sense and critical thinking for the win.

[loganinkosovo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UWIb4FwHPg

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross" SINCLAR LEWIS

And when Communism comes to America it will be wrapped in tweed, wearing berkenstocks and calling itself and "Educator"......Logan

:)

[FillTheVoid]

Round One Fight!!!

I'm not going to fight with anyone, sorry to disappoint you. :)

[INAT]

That is a horrible video.Christian children praying for evil.I do not think gwb is on the side of goodness and Christianity.

[IraGlacialis]

Round One Fight!!!
I find it funny that not long after this thread was formed, the Atheists thread was bumped back up.


This topic has potential to reach quite a lot pages, hehe. But common sense and critical thinking for the win.Common sense? Critical thinking?
NEVER!
http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/show/2005/07/8fantastic.jpg

[FillTheVoid]

That is a horrible video.Christian children praying for evil.I do not think gwb is on the side of goodness and Christianity.

I will concede that speaking to a cardboard cutout is a little excessive.

We're told to pray for our leaders, good or bad. There's no harm or evil in asking for God to give him the wisdom to make the right decisions.

[INAT]

I will concede that speaking to a cardboard cutout is a little excessive.

We're told to pray for our leaders, good or bad. There's no harm or evil in asking for God to give him the wisdom to make the right decisions.

See i do not think God is guiding him.I am not overly religious but can discern between good and evil.

[Fenrir]

We're a Christian country. We have a cross in our flag, we have a state church, the constitution states that in order to claim the throne the pretendent must be of the pure Christian faith according to the Augsburg confession. When you serve in the army, services are administered by priests from the state church and attendence is not optional, and so on.

Oh boy, thank the gods you dont speak for the whole of sweden, and i still havent seen or attended any religious function while serving in the armed forces. But then i think you have forgotten that the church and the state have separeted in this country.

btw Thor wouldnt a biblical name have suited you better as nick rather than an old pagan name after the god of thunder? even though you have bastartised the speling to suit the english language.

[Thor]

Oh boy, thank the gods you dont speak for the whole of sweden...
Neither do you. Some 80 percent of the population are members of the Church of Sweden (with a capital "S").


...and i still havent seen or attended any religious function while serving in the armed forces.
Like I said, I don't know anyone who didn't attend neither a Korum, Christmas Service, nor Lucia Service.


But then i think you have forgotten that the church and the state have separeted in this country.
Only to "look good" on paper, it's still heavily attached.

[Fenrir]

Guess i must know most of those remaining 20% then that have activly ended their relationship with the church. And of those 80% that are still part of the Swedish state church.. how many are members couse they are active belivers in the christian faith and how many are simply there couse they cant be bothered with sending in a note to the church/state resigning their mebership of said church?

As for Korum, Christmas Service, and Lucia Service. I did not attend either while serving in the army, and yes i served over the holidays. They were volontary for us at our regiment and very few conscripts did actually attend.

And many people dont attend mentioned services, but rather have them on tv at home couse its tradition, rather than out of belif. If all Lucia Services were religous most schools in sweden would be breaking the law.

Yes there are christians observing said religous fesativals as well, most of those will be found in church or other appropriate avenue of worship on those days, a majority of Swedish citizens will however be found at home with the tv on in the background while eating breakfast and heading to work/school or whatnot.

Claiming sweden as a whole as a country that follows christian dogma is utterly absurd. We are a secular nation and im proud of that fact since it means we wont be going on any crusades soon.

And for the record i hate exstremist christians with as much fever as i hate exstremist muslims and other exstremist religous groups, no matter race or creed.

[Thor]

Guess i must know most of those remaining 20% then that have activly ended their relationship with the church.
I'm part of those 20 percent.


And of those 80% that are still part of the Swedish state church.. how many are members couse they are active belivers in the christian faith and how many are simply there couse they cant be bothered with sending in a note to the church/state resigning their mebership of said church?
Researchers have looked into this and come to conclusion that people stay, and then have their children christened and so forth, due to cultural and religious reasons and not because of some type of lazyness. And of those who leave many do so because of the church tax (in the country with the world's highest taxes it kind of makes sense).


As for Korum, Christmas Service, and Lucia Service. I did not attend either while serving in the army, and yes i served over the holidays. They were volontary for us at our regiment and very few conscripts did actually attend.
Like I said, I have never heard of that. Where and when was it?


And many people dont attend mentioned services, but rather have them on tv at home couse its tradition, rather than out of belif. If all Lucia Services were religous most schools in sweden would be breaking the law.
I haven't attended a church ceremony for many years. And no, schools are not breaking the law as long as attendence is not made mandatory. Jan Björklund basically said the same thing when he was interviewed in TV4 (that we historically and culturally is a Christian country and that ceremonies in church are not a problem as long as attendence is not made mandatory).


Yes there are christians observing said religous fesativals as well, most of those will be found in church or other appropriate avenue of worship on those days, a majority of Swedish citizens will however be found at home with the tv on in the background while eating breakfast and heading to work/school or whatnot.
Like me then. To me and to most people here beliefs (or non-beliefs for that matter) is a very personal thing.


Claiming sweden as a whole as a country that follows christian dogma is utterly absurd.
I have not claimed we are not secular or that we are like "Livets Ord". What we are, having history in mind and all these incorporated attributes as well as an 80 percent membership ratio in the state church, is a Christian country.

[Litti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKqMCSoBWzQ

That´s some creepy sh*t. Like watching that movie where there are like 10 little children who have white hair and they can read minds and make people harm themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOIYsGVyg8M

You dont make heroes out of Warlocks, haha. Splendid

[Maskirovka]

We're a Christian country. We have a cross in our flag, we have a state church, the constitution states that in order to claim the throne the pretendent must be of the pure Christian faith according to the Augsburg confession. When you serve in the army, services are administered by priests from the state church and attendence is not optional, and so on.


It´s kinda funny. I was watching that documentary ("Jesus Camp") just a couple of weeks ago when it was broadcasted on swedish television. At the end of the documentary one of those religious fanatics says something like; "- Sweden is the least religious country in the world and India is the most. Unfortunaly USA now has the leadership of Sweden and the population of India. We must bring God into the white house!".

So when you comparing Sweden, the least religious country in the world, with crusaders and christian fanatics is kinda funny and could´nt be further from the truth. Just get over it, the vast majority of swedes don´t care about churches, god, religion or christianity. Even in norway they are way more religious. (and no, we don´t have a state church in Sweden)

[Thor]

At the end of the documentary one of those religious fanatics says something like; "- Sweden is the least religious country in the world and India is the most."
So you use those nut jobs for obtaining correct facts? They don't have a clue about that.


...with crusaders and christian fanatics is kinda funny and could´nt be further from the truth.
If you know anything you know that we were one of the most hardcore Christian countries in the world ca. 1100-1900. Today we are highly secular but remain a very Christian country for already mentioned reasons.


Just get over it, the vast majority of swedes don´t care about churches, god, religion or christianity. Even in norway they are way more religious. (and no, we don´t have a state church in Sweden)
Which isn't true. Some 80 percent of the population are members in the Church of Sweden and I have already mentioned why they stay members and have their children christened. It's not because of lazyness but due to cultural and religious reasons.

As for the state church it's no longer a state church per say but in reality it has kept all the attributes and affiliations, hence I still refer to it as a state church.

And use ' instead of ´. My eyes hurt.

[Maskirovka]

So you use those nut jobs for obtaining correct facts? They don't have a clue about that.

When it comes to religious facts and figures I´d rather trust those religous nuts then rascist, islamophob nuts on this board. Besides, they had no reason lying about that fact about Sweden since Sweden did´nt have anything to do with the documentury.



If you know anything you know that we were one of the most hardcore Christian countries in the world ca. 1100-1900. Today we are highly secular but remain a very Christian country for already mentioned reasons.

I don´t think Sweden were more "hardcore" christians than other catholic contries in europe 500 years ago, and I can´t really see why that is important. Yes, we are a christians country, with christian traditions (just like any other christian country in the world) but we are not a religious people.




Which isn't true. Some 80 percent of the population are members in the Church of Sweden and I have already mentioned why they stay members and have their children christened. It's not because of lazyness but due to cultural and religious reasons.

As for the state church it's no longer a state church per say but in reality it has kept all the attributes and affiliations, hence I still refer to it as a state church.

The main reasons IMO why so many people still are members of the church are two; Lazyness - not so many years ago every person in sweden were a member when we really had a statechurch. Now, to get out of it, you have to sign a document etc and most people just don´t give a damn about to few dollars/ year you save in taxmoney by leaving the church. Tradition - cultural traditions, not religious. IIRC things like weddings and being buried within the church is cheaper and easier if you are a member of the church. My personal reason for not leaving the church is only cultural, I like the old churches (the buildings) in Sweden and my taxmoney helps keeping them from being demolished since no one ever visits them...

I know you want to see Sweden as an outpost for the christian faith, a master race of crusaders standing up against the flood of evil islamist devils that are threatening to destroy the entire western christian society - and starting with Sweden.

But thats not simply the fact, the majority of swedes does´nt care a s*it about religion or christianity. They have´nt been in a church for years if they had´nt been forced to attend a wedding or a funeral. Just ask any swede on this board when they last attended a sunday mass in a church. I would be surprised if even 5% have been at a mass in the last years, or if ever...

[Hollis]

Blaming religion for all the problems in the past, is a little narrow minded. In the past, religion, government, economic and culture was greatly intermixed and was generally control by the same entities. Some people will use what ever means to exploit a situation to their advantage. Religion was not much more than a vehicle to be used my despotic rulers to insure their rule. It was a handy tool. As people became more literate, societies progressed. Government became less oppressive, religious institutions became more focused on "religion", economic interests focused more on the markets. As it is with people, nothing is pure (100%) single interests. People will blend and mix those aspects to justify their good or bad desires.

[akd]

I have not claimed we are not secular or that we are like "Livets Ord". What we are, having history in mind and all these incorporated attributes as well as an 80 percent membership ratio in the state church, is a Christian country.

As opposed to Sweden being a Muslim country, or a Buddhist country? I guess that is an easy claim to make.



Not until liberalization in the late 18th century, however, were believers of other faiths, including Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) and Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism), allowed to openly live and work in Sweden, although it remained illegal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal) until 1860 for Lutheran Swedes to convert to another religion. The 19th century saw the arrival of various evangelical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_church) free churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_church), and, towards the end of the century secularism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism), leading many to distance themselves from Church rituals. Leaving the Church of Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Sweden) became legal with the so-called dissenter law of 1860 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860), but only under the provision of entering another denomination. The right to stand outside any religious denomination was established in the Law on Freedom of Religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Religion) in 1951 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951).

Today about 78% of Swedes belong to the Church of Sweden, but the number is decreasing by about one per cent every year, and Church of Sweden services are sparsely attended (hovering in the single digit percentages of the population).[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#_note-36) The reason for the large number of inactive members is partly that until 1996, children became members automatically at birth if at least one of their parents were a member. Since 1996, all children that are baptised become members. Some 275,000 Swedes are today members of various free churches (where congregation attendance is much higher), and, in addition, immigration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration) has meant that there are now some 92,000 Roman Catholics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholics) and 100,000 Eastern Orthodox Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church) living in Sweden.[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#_note-37) Due to immigration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration), Sweden also has a significant Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) population. As many as 500,000 are Muslims by tradition[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#_note-38) and between 80,000 - 400,000 of these are practicing Muslims.

According to the most recent Eurostat "Eurobarometer" poll, in 2005,[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#_note-39) 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 23% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force". Sweden ranks aside with France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) and Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) on having a large minority of its citizens who have no religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion). Independent of these statistics, it is gererally known that Swedish society, collectively, is comparatively secular and non-religious.

Belief in God and church attendance are the important factors when judgeing a population's piety, not paper membership in a long-established, state-sponsored church.

[Laworkerbee]

Blaming religion for all the problems in the past, is a little narrow minded. In the past, religion, government, economic and culture was greatly intermixed and was generally control by the same entities. Some people will use what ever means to exploit a situation to their advantage. Religion was not much more than a vehicle to be used my despotic rulers to insure their rule. It was a handy tool. As people became more literate, societies progressed. Government became less oppressive, religious institutions became more focused on "religion", economic interests focused more on the markets. As it is with people, nothing is pure (100%) single interests. People will blend and mix those aspects to justify their good or bad desires.

Good post HOLLiS

[Thor]

When it comes to religious facts and figures I´d rather trust those religous nuts then rascist, islamophob nuts on this board.
You're out of line.


Besides, they had no reason lying about that fact about Sweden since Sweden did´nt have anything to do with the documentury.
I'm sure they believed in their claim but that doesn't make it more true.

CIA Factbook even have us listed at 87 percent Lutheran.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sw.html


I don´t think Sweden were more "hardcore" christians than other catholic contries in europe 500 years ago
You should learn about history then. Especially with Gustaf II Adolf things really speeded up.


but we are not a religious people.
In that case the numbers would be the other way around. But this is of course a secular country.


The main reasons IMO why so many people still are members of the church are two; Lazyness - not so many years ago every person in sweden were a member when we really had a statechurch.
Again, not true. Research shows otherwise.


Now, to get out of it, you have to sign a document etc and most people just don´t give a damn about to few dollars/ year you save in taxmoney by leaving the church.
On the contrary they lose members quite rapidly and the main reason is the church tax. They who do stay state different reasons.

If you have a low income the church tax is rather insignificant but with a higher income it's different. First it all adds up to quite an amount, and secondly due to the progressive tax your net income percentage drops while you still have to pay the same church tax based on your gross income.


IIRC things like weddings and being buried within the church is cheaper and easier if you are a member of the church.
IIRC if two people wants to get married in a Church ceremony at least one of them must be a member and then the price stays the same. As for funerals you won't be buried within the Church if you're not a member


My personal reason for not leaving the church is only cultural, I like the old churches (the buildings) in Sweden and my taxmoney helps keeping them from being demolished since no one ever visits them...
That's very nice of you, if you don't mind the fact that the Church of Sweden is very wealthy.


They have´nt been in a church for years if they had´nt been forced to attend a wedding or a funeral. Just ask any swede on this board when they last attended a sunday mass in a church.
I'm not a member of the state church, and I haven't attended a mass in many years. Still, here I am.

I think you need to get back in line. I think you need to more carefully review this thread. If you have a problem with understanding the english language I encourage you to work on it.



Belief in God and church attendance are the important factors when judgeing a population's piety, not paper membership in a long-established, state-sponsored church.
Not at all. To me the true faith is the personal faith, the personal conviction. It's not about singing and watching some hippies play bongo drums. I believe Martin Luther would agree with me on that. Personal conviction is not about who can scream the loudest, it's about quiet personal reflection and contemplation in your everyday life.

As for your poll you have to understand that Christianity is a very sensitive subject here since Christianity is very much under attack. I would never discuss faith IRL and If I received a call asking me to contribute to a poll I would be very suspicious. Not even the Christian Democrats here officially admits that they are a Christians anymore.

This doesn't change the fact that the ~80 percent who stay on as members in the state church say they do so because of religious and cultural reasons.

[Thor]

Religion was not much more than a vehicle to be used my despotic rulers to insure their rule.
I know it may be hard for a contemporary person in a secular society to grasp that religion was the unquestionable truth back then. Kings as well as peasants were fundamentalists and it was a huge driving force in their lives.

[Hollis]

I know it may be hard for a contemporary person in a secular society to grasp that religion was the unquestionable truth back then. Kings as well as peasants were fundamentalists and it was a huge driving force in their lives.


Yes, Life was much more scary, no medicine, most people illiterate, no indoor plumbing, etc. Faith might have about all they had to cling to, in order to survive a really nasty environment.

[akd]

You're out of line.


I'm sure they believed in their claim but that doesn't make it more true.

CIA Factbook even have us listed at 87 percent Lutheran.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sw.html


You should learn about history then. Especially with Gustaf II Adolf things really speeded up.


In that case the numbers would be the other way around. But this is of course a secular country.


Again, not true. Research shows otherwise.


On the contrary they lose members quite rapidly and the main reason is the church tax. They who do stay state different reasons.

If you have a low income the church tax is rather insignificant but with a higher income it's different. First it all adds up to quite an amount, and secondly due to the progressive tax your net income percentage drops while you still have to pay the same church tax based on your gross income.


IIRC if two people wants to get married in a Church ceremony at least one of them must be a member and then the price stays the same. As for funerals you won't be buried within the Church if you're not a member


That's very nice of you, if you don't mind the fact that the Church of Sweden is very wealthy.


I'm not a member of the state church, and I haven't attended a mass in many years. Still, here I am.

I think you need to get back in line. I think you need to more carefully review this thread. If you have a problem with understanding the english language I encourage you to work on it.



Not at all. To me the true faith is the personal faith, the personal conviction. It's not about singing and watching some hippies play bongo drums. I believe Martin Luther would agree with me on that. Personal conviction is not about who can scream the loudest, it's about quiet personal reflection and contemplation in your everyday life.

As for your poll you have to understand that Christianity is a very sensitive subject here since Christianity is very much under attack. I would never discuss faith IRL and If I received a call asking me to contribute to a poll I would be very suspicious. Not even the Christian Democrats here officially admits that they are a Christians anymore.

This doesn't change the fact that the ~80 percent who stay on as members in the state church say they do so because of religious and cultural reasons.

1. You kinda skipped over the important bit there: "belief in God." 76% of Swedes don't believe in a monotheistic God of any denomination. If you are going to claim that Swedes will lie in order to conceal their piety in an anonymous poll, but will openly maintain membership in the Lutheran church because of their belief in God, then you are going to have to produce some very significant data to reconcile the two.

2. Whether or not they are practicing Lutherans and not members of the church for some broader social purpose (or simply because they were automatically made members) would be determined by whether or not they regularly attend Lutheran church services.

[Firetxmi]

This thread got big and off topic pretty quick.

[Maskirovka]

You're out of line.

Oh, I think people who raise and brainwash their children into fanatics-worshipping a god and cardboard figure is out of line. Or teaches them to become "soldiers" of the Jesus-army and that every non-christian is a bad person and the enemy. Allso people who thinks it´s a good idea to raise children into "crusaders" and teaches them hate I think is out of line. Rascists who thinks all non-christian are "Evil" and should convert, I think is out of line.




I'm sure they believed in their claim but that doesn't make it more true.

CIA Factbook even have us listed at 87 percent Lutheran.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sw.html


So what? Every nordic country shows the same figures and they shurely not consider themselves as "religious" countries...

When every swede almost mandatory had to belong to the swedish state curch just until 10 years ago many offcourse still do. Mainly because of cultural tradition and convenience NOT any religous believes. I have no idea wich bogus research you are reffering to but anyone who lives in Sweden can tell you this, we don´t care about religion!




You should learn about history then. Especially with Gustaf II Adolf things really speeded up.

I know that much at least that Gustav II Adolf was´nt around 500 years ago and when he was around Sweden were no longer catholic. And having read several history books I don´t think Sweden were much more "hardcore" religious than many other countries in europe like Denmark, England, France, Spain or the states in Germany or Italy.




In that case the numbers would be the other way around. But this is of course a secular country.


Again, not true. Research shows otherwise.

It´s just a pointless debate. I don´t know what world you are living in but it can´t be Sweden. The majority of us simply don´t care about religion and, never attend church and never practise our christian religion. Even tough you seem to think we are closet-fanatics who are just waiting for the signal to pick up our sword and defend our holy faith against what ever imaginary attack you think were under...

[Thor]

You kinda skipped over the important bit there: "belief in God." 76% of Swedes don't believe in a monotheistic God of any denomination.
No, I addressed that as well if you had bothered to notice.

23 percent says "I don't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force".

The remaining percentage, 77 percent, happens to correlate very well with the membership ratio in the state church. And the members in the state church have stated that the reasons for them staying (and paying the hefty church tax) are predominately religious and cultural ones.


If you are going to claim that Swedes will lie in order to conceal their piety in an anonymous poll, but will openly maintain membership in the Lutheran church because of their belief in God, then you are going to have to produce some very significant data to reconcile the two.
Not really, and not being willing to give away very personal information over the phone to a stranger is not lying. In this country anyone who says he believes in God will be treated as an idiot. Even priests often have a hard time admitting in public that they believe in God and slips into speaking about "spirituality" and such instead. Since the state church is so old and such a natural part of society it's not as controversial.


Whether or not they are practicing Lutherans and not members of the church for some broader social purpose (or simply because they were automatically made members) would be determined by whether or not they regularly attend Lutheran church services.
I don't agree. First of all they have stated their reasons. And secondly, like I said, faith is not about who can scream the loudest or if you sing to the beat bongo drums once a week. It's about your own personal faith and conviction.

I for one have not been inside a church for years.

[Thor]

Oh, I think people who raise and brainwash their children into fanatics-worshipping a god and cardboard figure is out of line..
Hence why I refered to them as nuts for doing that to their children, while you didn't. Instead you just picked up a piece of their "facts".


Allso people who thinks it´s a good idea to raise children into "crusaders" and teaches them hate I think is out of line. Rascists who thinks all non-christian are "Evil" and should convert
Once again you're out of line. Everyone with a backbone and some basic decency are willing to defend their faith, family, country, and people.


So what? Every nordic country shows the same figures and they shurely not consider themselves as "religious" countries...
How is that reading comprehension working out for you? We are secular (look up that word if you don't understand it) just as the rest of the Nordic countries, but we're still by all definitions a Christian country. Finland and Denmark have even kept their state churces to a full extent.


When every swede almost mandatory had to belong to the swedish state curch just until 10 years ago many offcourse still do.
Only if a parent was already a member and he/she/they accepted it


Mainly because of cultural tradition and convenience NOT any religous believes. I have no idea wich bogus research you are reffering to
Once again you are making up things. Svenska kyrkan is losing members quite rapidly and have researched what it is that makes people stay and what it is that makes them leave.

If you had followed the media reporting on this issue you would among other things also know that there was recently a proposal to change the church tax so that high income earners would pay less (and by so not leave to such a great extent) but in the end it was revoked.


but anyone who lives in Sweden can tell you this, we don´t care about religion!
77 percent in the poll from Eurostat posted above says otherwise.

But the point here isn't about if people go and sing to bongo drums once a week or not, but about the core cultural values of the country. In that and other senses we are very much a Christian country.


I know that much at least that Gustav II Adolf was´nt around 500 years ago and when he was around Sweden were no longer catholic.
That was kind of the whole point when I mentioned that things were speeded up with him..... Use your glasses if you have any.


And having read several history books I don´t think Sweden were much more "hardcore" religious than many other countries in europe like Denmark, England, France, Spain or the states in Germany or Italy.
You're claiming to have read several books in your lifetime?? I doubt it. If you don't know your own country's history you're just a sad person and I'm not payed to tutor you.


Even tough you seem to think we are closet-fanatics who are just waiting for the signal to pick up our sword and defend our holy faith against what ever imaginary attack you think were under...
Again, you have entirely missed the point. I have been discussing the identity and core values of this country. You have wandered off into your own comic book fantasies.

Though it's true that this country is very much under attack (don't make me post statistics). If you're not loyal to this country it would be best for you to just pack and leave and try to find some country that would take you.

[hauptman]

If someone just believes in God and all that stuff (just as an average Catholic) I have nothing against this ...

But such "hardcore" religion are IMHO just sick.
Anyone who encourages such things underestimates human's love of freedom.

[akd]

No, I addressed that as well if you had bothered to notice.

23 percent says "I don't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force".

And exactly how are the 53% who say "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" Christians? Are you actually claiming you don't have to believe in a monotheistic God to be a faithful Christian? That is not Christianity. That is agnosticism. You have seriously confused your deep desire for a shared racial identity with shared faith.


The remaining percentage, 77 percent, happens to correlate very well with the membership ratio in the state church. And the members in the state church have stated that the reasons for them staying (and paying the hefty church tax) are predominately religious and cultural ones. Which just goes to show that belief in the Christian god does not have much to do with church membership in Sweden.



Not really, and not being willing to give away very personal information over the phone to a stranger is not lying. In this country anyone who says he believes in God will be treated as an idiot. Even priests often have a hard time admitting in public that they believe in God and slips into speaking about "spirituality" and such instead. Since the state church is so old and such a natural part of society it's not as controversial.

A Christian would deny their faith in God and Christ out of a fear of being socially shunned (but would not end their membership in the state church for that reason)?



I don't agree. First of all they have stated their reasons. And secondly, like I said, faith is not about who can scream the loudest or if you sing to the beat bongo drums once a week. It's about your own personal faith and conviction.

I for one have not been inside a church for years.

If you don't believe in God and Christ, you are not a Christian, regardless of church membership or family association. The only thing I've learned here is that at least some part of Swedish society is deeply hypocritical, which is certainly something they can share with the religious right in the US.

[Maskirovka]

Hence why I refered to them as nuts for doing that to their children, while you didn't. Instead you just picked up a piece of their "facts".


Once again you're out of line. Everyone with a backbone and some basic decency are willing to defend their faith, family, country, and people.


How is that reading comprehension working out for you? We are secular (look up that word if you don't understand it) just as the rest of the Nordic countries, but we're still by all definitions a Christian country. Finland and Denmark have even kept their state churces to a full extent.


Only if a parent was already a member and he/she/they accepted it


Once again you are making up things. Svenska kyrkan is losing members quite rapidly and have researched what it is that makes people stay and what it is that makes them leave.

If you had followed the media reporting on this issue you would among other things also know that there was recently a proposal to change the church tax so that high income earners would pay less (and by so not leave to such a great extent) but in the end it was revoked.


77 percent in the poll from Eurostat posted above says otherwise.

But the point here isn't about if people go and sing to bongo drums once a week or not, but about the core cultural values of the country. In that and other senses we are very much a Christian country.


That was kind of the whole point when I mentioned that things were speeded up with him..... Use your glasses if you have any.


You're claiming to have read several books in your lifetime?? I doubt it. If you don't know your own country's history you're just a sad person and I'm not payed to tutor you.


Again, you have entirely missed the point. I have been discussing the identity and core values of this country. You have wandered off into your own comic book fantasies.

Though it's true that this country is very much under attack (don't make me post statistics). If you're not loyal to this country it would be best for you to just pack and leave and try to find some country that would take you.


Now your just starting to make up things.

First of all, I have NEVER said that swedes does´nt consider themselves as christians or that Sweden is not a christian country. Offcourse most swedes are christians and consider themselves that due to the fact that Sweden has been a christian country for some 1000 years! Much of Sweden is built upon christian traditions, culture and ideology (just like any other christian country).

What I AM saying is that most swedes does´nt consider themselves very religious. At least not in the scence of christian religious.

I know some about history, specially swedish history. Can you give me some sources that says that the swedish population were more fanatic religious christians then let say Spain, France, etc or had harsher religious rules than these countries during the years of 1100-1900. Offcourse religion played a huge part back then in everyday life and much of the judicial system almost came strait out of the old testament but it was the same almost everywhere in europe.

I know you are discussing identity and traditions, so am I. But you seem to think that being religious is a big part of the swedish identity since it is a christian society. I know it´s not, very few swedes consider themselves religious and even less practice that, but most of us consider us to be christian nonetheless. So stop the ridicules "If you're not loyal to this country it would be best for you to just pack and leave and try to find some country that would take you ", "willing to defend their faith, family, country, and people" or "Though it's true that this country is very much under attack (don't make me post statistics)". The first two statement just shows how disillusioned you are when you think swedes would consider religion as important as the family or homeland. And in the last sentence I would guess you just would be presenting statistics of crimes made by immigrants in Sweden, and rabbling about these crimes were committed by these people beacuse it is in their nature and other BS.

BTW, if you really consider Sweden being at war against against foreigners at this moment, is´nt it your duty to fight back and defend the homeland and king? How are you gonna do that? Start crusading against immigrants in Sweden or buy a one-way ticket to Iraq?

[Firetxmi]

Guys, I'm beginning to not give 2 ***** about Sweden anymore.

Can we stay on topic, or has this thread wandered so far off?

[IraGlacialis]

Guys, I'm beginning to not give 2 ***** about Sweden anymore.

Can we stay on topic, or has this thread wandered so far off?
Did you give 2 ***** about Sweden in the first place?

You ask too much when wanting to stay on topic with a subject such as this, in the PD&R section. ;)

[Firetxmi]

Did you give 2 ***** about Sweden in the first place?

You ask too much when wanting to stay on topic with a subject such as this, in the PD&R section. ;)

I guess thats the breaks! :D

[Kant]

Some of those kids had the worst mullets I've ever seen.
God must have been high when handing out the common sense gene to some of these people.

[IraGlacialis]

Anybody who uses their brain knows that common sense is anything but common.

The more I look at the video, the creepier it gets. What was that woman saying after asking the kids to do a blessing over the figure?

[Redguy]

Anybody who uses their brain knows that common sense is anything but common.

The more I look at the video, the creepier it gets. What was that woman saying after asking the kids to do a blessing over the figure?

You mean when she went "shaabbaaa kooo shhaabbaa shabbaa"?

Glossolalia (from the Greek, "γλώσσα" (glossa), tongue and "λαλώ" (lalô), I speak) comprises unintelligible utterances, often as part of religious practice. Glossolalia is claimed by some to be an unknown mystical langauge; others claim that glossolalia is the speaking of an unlearned foreign language The origin of the modern Christian concept of speaking in tongues is the miracle of pentecost, recounted in the New Testament book of Acts, in which Jesus' apostles were said to be filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in languages foreign to themselves, but which could be understood by members of the linguistically diverse audience. This story in Acts, along with the concept of a "baptism in the Holy Spirit", forms the basis of the charismatic practice of glossolalia. (Wikipedia)

Personally (as a christian) i disagree with the way this is practiced in todays age, to me it seems like alot of people just speak jibberish.

[IraGlacialis]

You mean when she went "shaabbaaa kooo shhaabbaa shabbaa"?
It looks so much more goofy when written out.

So I guess that every time I fly into a spastic fit of rage and attempt to keep from screaming and cursing, the gibberish that sputters out is filling me to the brim with the Holy Spirit. :D

[Redguy]

It looks so much more goofy when written out.

So I guess that every time I fly into a spastic fit of rage and attempt to keep from screaming and cursing, the gibberish that sputters out is filling me to the brim with the Holy Spirit. :D

haha you may have misread what i posted. Never the less, i don't know a whole bunch about it.

[IraGlacialis]

haha you may have misread what i posted. Never the less, i don't know a whole bunch about it.
Nah, I got the true concept of speaking in tongues; I just felt like mocking the people in that ceremony.

You were the one who stated that most people today who claim to speak in tongues seem to just speak gibberish that has no hope of remotely sounding like even an unheard-of language.

[FillTheVoid]

Speaking in Tongues is just one of those things, personally I'm not all that concerned with it.

[Hollis]

Speaking in Tongues is just one of those things, personally I'm not all that concerned with it.


Agree, but it is funny how other people are so concerned with other people's business, especially what it does not concern them.

There are a lot of things I don't understand and people practice it in their religious system. I don't need to pass some kind of judgement on it. If it is not effecting me in any negative manner, why should I. Same if someone is not following their beliefs 100%. So a person's belief says no old beer and a persons imbibes in a cold beer. I guess if that person took my last cold beer and I was really in need of one, I could say something.

As it has been expressed by religious and non-religious people here, if they are not pushing their religion/philosophy on someone else, who cares.

I think it would be better, rather than judging another's belief/philosophy, to try to understand it and the mechanism behind it. It can lead to better insight to the workings of our own self.

[Firetxmi]

Agree, but it is funny how other people are so concerned with other people's business, especially what it does not concern them.

There are a lot of things I don't understand and people practice it in their religious system. I don't need to pass some kind of judgement on it. If it is not effecting me in any negative manner, why should I. Same if someone is not following their beliefs 100%. So a person's belief says no old beer and a persons imbibes in a cold beer. I guess if that person took my last cold beer and I was really in need of one, I could say something.

As it has been expressed by religious and non-religious people here, if they are not pushing their religion/philosophy on someone else, who cares.

I think it would be better, rather than judging another's belief/philosophy, to try to understand it and the mechanism behind it. It can lead to better insight to the workings of our own self.

I agree, I just wish that some would understand that in a slightly different context.

[IraGlacialis]

Agree, but it is funny how other people are so concerned with other people's business, especially what it does not concern them.

...

As it has been expressed by religious and non-religious people here, if they are not pushing their religion/philosophy on someone else, who cares.

I think it would be better, rather than judging another's belief/philosophy, to try to understand it and the mechanism behind it. It can lead to better insight to the workings of our own self.
I would agree with your statement that a person shouldn't be concerned about another faith (or lack thereof), except for plain interest (being amused is another matter (come on, you can't say that the whole speaking in tongues deal isn't even remotely amusing)).

However, some groups such as that (besides breaking a commandment by praying over a cut-out) have the possibility (however minute) of becoming more radicalized (especially after hearing that one woman imply that kids here should have the same conviction as the kids with the bombs strapped to them). I am not saying that they should be shut down, but careful observation is recommended, IMHO.