Expel 1000 Muslims for every day that hostages were held

[fdt]

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,9295368,00.html

Hostage dilemma for Italian PM
From correspondents in Rome
16apr04

PRIME Minister Silvio Berlusconi faced an impossible choice today as Italy recoiled in horror at the execution of one of its hostages in Iraq - cede to the kidnappers' demands or face a macabre countdown to the killing of the three other abducted Italians.

"They have cut short a life. They have not damaged our values and our commitment to peace," said a defiant Berlusconi in his first reaction to the killing.
However, the execution of Fabrizio Quattrocchi, a 35-year-old Genoese baker turned security guard, has delivered a body-blow to Italy's involvement in Iraq as part of the US-led coalition.

It places Berlusconi in the front line of US President George W Bush's allies as the first head of government to be forced to deal with the killing of a hostage -- one of around 40 foreigners held in Iraq by insurgents calling for the withdrawal of coalition forces.

In a statement accompanying a reportedly grotesque video of the Quattrocchi's execution, the captors said they had "killed the hostage after comments by Berlusconi ... that the withdrawal of Italian troops from Iraq was not negotiable".

The kidnappers threatened to kill the other hostages "one by one if their demands were not taken into account", Qatar's Al-Jazeera television said.

Berlusconi, who said on Tuesday that the withdrawal of Italian troops was "absolutely not under discussion", immediately dispatched an envoy, Gianni Castellaneta, to Iraq to coordinate efforts to have the other hostages released.

At the same time, his Foreign Minister Franco Frattini struck a pessimistic note, saying it would be "very difficult" to obtain the release of the other hostages because the kidnappers - a previously unknown group calling themselves the Green Brigade -- were "bandits who represent no-one".

And in a comment today apparently aimed at rallying a nation powerless in the face of the kidnap crisis, the foreign minister paid tribute to defiance of the dead hostage in the face of his executioners, calling him a "hero".

"When the assassin was pointing the pistol at him, this boy tried to take off his hood and shouted: 'now I'll show you how an Italian dies. And they killed him."

Quattrocchi "died courageously, I would say as a hero", said the minister.

Frattini came under fire from the left-wing opposition today for remaining on a television chat show with members of the hostages' families as the crisis unfolded early yesterday.

Millions of Italians shared the families' anguish as news that an unidentified hostage had been executed.

But left wing critics slammed the program as an "obscene reality show".

The left-wing La Repubblica newspaper said close relatives of the hostages "found themselves protagonists in an unexpected game of Russian roulette" as the drama unfolded, wondering if it was their relative who had been slaughtered.

In the long days ahead, Berlusconi will at least be able to count on the support of the Italian opposition, which have strongly opposed Italy's involvement in Iraq.

"We must certainly not withdraw our troops from Iraq because some 'brigade' of assassins demands," said Francesco Rutelli, leader of the centre-left opposition.

But Berlusconi faces an uneasy period at home as he waits for news of the hostages.

He will not have been best served by a xenophobic outburst by the deputy leader of his coalition partner, the Northern League.

Citing the need for an 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' policy with Iraqi insurgents, Roberto Calderoli said western countries should expel 1000 immigrant Muslims for every day that hostages were held in Iraq.
Ahead lies a stiff test of Berlusconi's resolve to maintain Italy's commitment to a US-inspired cause which is unpopular at home, particularly with local and European elections in June seen as a mid-term barometer of his government's performance.

However, analyst Giorgio Prinzi of the Rome-based Centre for Global Security studies said Muslim extremists had identified Italy as the second "weak link" in the chain of US coalition countries after the Madrid bombings persuaded Spain to pledge the withdrawal of its troops from June 30.

[FallenAngel]

Reinhard Heydrich anyone?

I far from condone the murder of innocent civilians, but rounding up and expelling muslim citizens just because they're muslim?

Good God. :cantbeli:

[American Patriot]

That's ****ing awesome! Holy **** I just creamed my pants.

[ikurinturbiini]

Berlusconi is an unpredictable, bombastic windbag. His populist sidekicks are, well, populists.

Forget about it.

[American Patriot]

The Italian people know what they want, expel them.

[sierraone]

Obviously you haven't got a clue who Heydrich was and what happened there and you just plucked a german name from the WWII and threw it in the open. I am totally behind mr. Calderoli on this!! go for it Silvio!! We don't want Islam in Europe. not now or ever.

[dacanadianbomb]

LOl, thats a realy good one. Expell a certain religion because a couple of thugs are holding hostages in a country multiple thousand kilometers away.
You creamed your pants? You must be fairly easy to get going if a short sighted anger filled idea like that can get you off.

Is anyone actually thinking beyond their own doorstep when you say this is a good idea. So lets say if a group of Concerned Christians were to hold a Italian Abortion clinic hostage you would start expelling 1000 Christians for every day they held a hostage ?
Please people think a little bit further than what you have been posting until now .

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

So innocent people will be punished for something they have absolutely no control over?. You start doing that and you're no better than the hostage takers.

[Nizark]

It does bring up a question (g0 ahead, flame on), how much do you think europe would take? I mean appeasement wouldn't work forever, and if a group of french or germans or whomever got executed like the poor italian fellow, what could they do, and what would they do? How long until talking trash and freezing bank accounts isn't enough for the general populace?

[-Max2-]

Obviously you haven't got a clue who Heydrich was and what happened there and you just plucked a german name from the WWII and threw it in the open. I am totally behind mr. Calderoli on this!! go for it Silvio!! We don't want Islam in Europe. not now or ever.

I agree. Islam and Western values are simply incompatibles...


LOl, thats a realy good one. Expell a certain religion because a couple of thugs are holding hostages in a country multiple thousand kilometers away.
You creamed your pants? You must be fairly easy to get going if a short sighted anger filled idea like that can get you off.



Another ultra-tolerant, liberal guy... :roll:

I am really tired of all this ****. I never see Muslims living in the West condamning Al-Qaeda or go down in the streets to show solidarity with the victims of terrorism. I have the impression that the majority of Muslims immigrants in the West silently agree with those Al-Qaeda terrorists...

There is something wrong in the West at the moment, and nobody cares...

[fdt]

IMHO... main difference in attitude between US and Europe is that US is mentally in the state of war so it undertakes wartime measures while Europe is mentally in the peace time so it is more willing to apply the peacetime measures.

[mrfloppy]

If any of the European countries wanted to expel people for religious reasons, it would have to change its constitution, I guess. And that's aways a very slow process. As long as a person doesn't commit a crime, you can't expel him - or is it already a crime to be a muslim? Where would you draw the line between a good and a bad muslim? Would a Turk also be expelled, or are they less dangerous than Jordanians or Moroccans, etc.? Furthermore, I guess that those Iraqis, holding Italian hostages wouldn't give a f***ing sh*t for any muslim being expelled from Italy. They would perhaps even see this as a reason to kill their hostages, instead of releasing them.

I guess, that in the US there are still quite a lot of muslims feeling some sympathy for their brothers in Iraq - do they get expelled?!

[fdt]

If any of the European countries wanted to expel people for religious reasons, it would have to change its constitution, I guess. And that's aways a very slow process. As long as a person doesn't commit a crime, you can't expel him - or is it already a crime to be a muslim? Where would you draw the line between a good and a bad muslim? Would a Turk also be expelled, or are they less dangerous than Jordanians or Moroccans, etc.? Furthermore, I guess that those Iraqis, holding Italian hostages wouldn't give a f***ing sh*t for any muslim being expelled from Italy. They would perhaps even see this as a reason to kill their hostages, instead of releasing them.

I guess, that in the US there are still quite a lot of muslims feeling some sympathy for their brothers in Iraq - do they get expelled?!Then what You do with the anti West propaganda and call for violence spread in mosks (in some openly in most of them in hiding) all over the Europe? What about the muslim religious leaders who support (more or less open way) radical muslim groups? Where do You draw a line between a cultural and religious resistance against Western consumerism and the active terrorism? How do You wanna apply the Democracy rules to the enemies of democracy who openly oppose it? Are we in Europe in state of war or not???

[FLaKKeY]

another holocaust?

[SeanAshi]

Berlusconi is an unpredictable, bombastic windbag.
So is Vladimir Putin.

[fdt]

another holocaust? :cantbeli: It's as simple way to deal with the problem as turning the blind eye on it... Why don't You propose smth a bit more complicated...?

[mrfloppy]

As far as the muslim preachers are concerned, that try to spread hate against us, they should be prosecuted (in Germany, failure to comply with the constitution may be prosecuted). But it seems to be difficult, as you can see in UK, where they to seem to have the means to get rid of "Captain Hook".

Of course, I am also very suspicious about the muslim communities in Europe not clearly rejecting fundamentalist terrorism - but this could not justify extradition of muslims from Europe.

We are not yet in a state of war in Europe, but this may happen soon, if we don't force muslims to integrate in our system and accept our society and culture, as long as they want to live in our countries. I am not outright against legal action or extradition of criminals, but being a muslim is not a crime (yet).

As far as this statement is concerned:
Citing the need for an 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' policy with Iraqi insurgents, Roberto Calderoli said western countries should expel 1000 immigrant Muslims for every day that hostages were held in Iraq. , there is just no legal ground for such action.

[fdt]

SAUDI ARABIA

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/saudi.html (whole text)

(excerpts)

"It is absurd to impose on an individual or a society rights that are alien to its beliefs or principles," Saudi Arabia's deputy premier and effective head of state Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz told the U.N. Third Millenium summit in New York on September 6. He warned of "the ramifications of unbridled globalization and its use as an umbrella to violate the sovereignty of states and interfere with their internal affairs under a variety of pretexts, especially from the angle of human rights." The kingdom's fourteen million citizens and six to seven million foreign residents thus continued to be denied a range of basic rights guranteed under international law.

Freedom of expression and association were nonexistent rights, political parties and independent local media were not permitted, and even peaceful anti-government activities remained virtually unthinkable. Infringements on privacy, institutionalized gender discrimination, harsh restrictions on the exercise of religious freedom, and the use of capital and corporal punishment were also major features of the kingdom's human rights record.

There were some encouraging developments, however, such as greater official sensitivity to international criticism of the country's human rights practices, recognition of international standards with respect to women's rights, and public pledges to establish human rights monitoring bodies. On September 7, Saudi Arabia became a party to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW), although on August 21 the Council of Ministers, in announcing the government's intention to sign the treaty, said that it would not comply with "any clause in the agreement that contradicts Islamic sharia [law]."

Freedom of expression remained strictly circumscribed and there was no independent press. The eighth Arabic-language daily newspaper in the kingdom, al-Watan, was launched in September, joining other Saudi newspapers and media bankrolled by the royal family, including the influential pan-Arab daily al-Hayat. The Royal Decree for Printed Material and Publications, promulgated in 1982, contained a list of prohibited topics covering any material that was printed, published, or circulated in the kingdom. Violations of the law were criminal offenses, punishable with up to one year of imprisonment and/or fines.
(..........................)
The large population of foreign workers included some 1.2 million Egyptians and 1.2 million Indians, according to the U.S. State Department. Undocumented workers included those who remained after entering the country to perform the haj or umra, and those who stayed after the expiry of their work visas. Migrants have long been subjected to restrictions such as the surrender of passports to Saudi sponsors, limitations on freedom of movement, prohibitions on trade union organizing, and lack of access to legal representation in cases of arrest. Overstayers and violators of the iqama (residency permit system) were given a July 2 deadline to obtain the proper authorizations or leave the country, which authorities later extended to August 29, after which date all penalties were to be "firmly implemented," the Interior Ministry said. Prince Nayif said that iqama violators included those who left or fled their Saudi sponsors or who were carrying out business activities on their own. Anyone without a residence permit after the deadline faced fines of over U.S. $25,000, prison sentences of six months, and deportation. Special police squads searched work places and homes for violators, including both foreign workers and their Saudi employers. Thousands of foreigners left or were expelled. For example, the Nigerian press reported on July 20 that 1,000 Nigerians had already been rounded up and deported, and Pakistani media said on September 27 that 2,441 Pakistani workers had been deported, in addition to thousands of undocumented workers who left the country voluntarily. In September, the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs reportedly wrote to private firms with over twenty employees, instructing them to increase by 25 percent the number of Saudis on their payrolls.

http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/mideast/saudi.html (whole text)

(excerpt)
Human Rights Developments
The government of Saudi Arabia, an absolute monarchy, continued to violate a broad array of civil and political rights, allowing no criticism of the government, no political parties, nor any other potential challenges to its system of government. Arbitrary arrest, detention without trial, torture, and corporal and capital punishment remained the norm in both political and common criminal cases, with at least twenty-two executions and three judicial amputations of the hand carried out by mid-October. Human rights abuses were facilitated by the absence of an independent judiciary and the lack of public scrutiny by an elected representative body or a free press.

Women continued to face institutionalized discrimination affecting their freedom of movement and association and their right to equality in employment and education. Muslim religious practices deemed heterodox by government-appointed Islamic scholars and all non-Muslim religious practices were banned and subject to criminal prosecution. In July the Philippines embassy in Riyadh reported that twelve Filipino nationals who had been detained in early June on charges of proselytizing and handing out bibles were deported to the Philippines. A Dutch citizen arrested at the same time was also deported.

Labor laws banned the right to organize and bargain collectively and gave employers control over foreign workers’ freedom of movement. Many foreign workers were denied promised wages and benefits and suffered under oppressive labor conditions. Labor protections did not extend to domestic workers, and labor courts rarely enforced the few protections provided by law when workers sought to have the terms of their contracts honored or pursued similar claims. In July the Council of Ministers issued a decision placing new limits on foreigners holding public sector jobs and prohibiting foreign workers with less than ten years in Saudi Arabia from “acquiring new expertise.” The restrictions followed a campaign to limit the number of foreign workers begun in July 1997, and in August the government announced that over 750,000 foreign workers had been expelled for violating residency regulations since October 1997.

The Saudi government has not disseminated a penal code or code of criminal procedure, and only a limited number of laws existed in published form. The Saudi monarchy enjoyed broad powers, enabling the king to appoint and dismiss judges and to create special courts, undermining judicial independence. In addition, principles of Islamic law were subject to reinterpretation by government-appointed religious leaders. Judges enjoyed broad discretion in defining criminal offenses and setting punishments, which included severe floggings, amputations, and beheading, and in determining which witnesses would be called to testify. These factors encouraged arbitrariness in sentencing and allowed great scope for manipulation of the justice system by well-connected interested parties.

Under the Principles of Arrest, Temporary Confinement, and Preventative Detention regulations issued by the minister of interior in 1983, detainees had no right to judicial review, could be held for fifty-one days before their detention was reviewed by the regional governor, and could be held indefinitely if neither the governor nor minister of interior ordered their release or trial. Detainees had no right to legal counsel, to examine witnesses, or to call witnesses in their own defense. Saudi law also allowed conviction on the basis of uncorroborated confessions. In cases of “crimes involving national security,” the minister of interior had virtually unlimited authority over suspects in crimes against state security, which were defined so broadly as to encompass nonviolent opposition to the government.

Foreigners were particularly vulnerable to manipulation of the judicial system, as in the case of Farzana Kausar and her three small children, all Pakistani nationals, who were detained for almost ten months, apparently in an attempt to force her husband to return to Saudi Arabia. Kausar’s husband, Mohamed Ijaz Ahmad, also a Pakistani national, was employed as office manager for Said Ayas, the business manager of Prince Mohammad bin Fahd bin ‘Abd al-Aziz Al-Saud, son of King Fahd and governor of the Eastern Province. Both Ahmad and Ayas were wanted by Prince Mohammad in connection with a business dispute, and Ayas had been placed under house arrest in June 1997 when he returned to Saudi Arabia at the prince’s request. After Ahmad went to Pakistan in September to visit an ill parent, he learned from neighbors that his wife and children were detained by General Investigations officers on October 8, 1997, a day before they were to join Ahmad. In March the Saudi ambassador to Pakistan reportedly sought the aid of Pakistan’s minister of interior in returning Ahmad to Saudi Arabia, and claimed that Kausar remained in Saudi Arabia because she was unwilling to travel without her husband. Ahmad fled Pakistan and applied for asylum in Britain, where he indicated he would testify on Ayas’ behalf in a London court case brought by the prince. In response to the court’s request for clarification of Kausar’s status, on July 14 the prince’s lawyers for the first time submitted affidavits claiming that Kausar had been charged with criminal offenses on February 28. They did not explain why the Saudi ambassador’s March appeal to Pakistan made no mention of charges, or why Kausar and her children were detained more than four months before charges were filed. The family was allowed to leave Saudi Arabia on July 27, the day before a scheduled court judgment in the legal dispute, on the condition that Kausar return to Saudi Arabia for a September 5 hearing. As of early October Kausar remained in Pakistan, in hiding, after the government of Pakistan banned her from traveling abroad on August 24.

The sentences of British nurses Deborah Parry and Lucille McLauchlan were commuted and they were released on May 20 and allowed to return to the United Kingdom. The two had been convicted of the December 1996 murder of an Australian nurse, apparently solely on the basis of coerced confessions the two later withdrew. McLauchlan’s additional sentence of 500 lashes was not carried out.

The Shi‘a community in Saudi Arabia, which comprised about 10 percent of the population, faced widespread government discrimination, including unequal access to social services, education, and government jobs, especially those in the national security sector. The government rarely permitted private construction of Shi‘a mosques or community centers, and even books on Shi‘ism were banned.

Shi‘a sources reported that the family of Mohammad al-Hayek, twenty-nine, of Qatif, was notified on June 21 that their son had died in prison and was buried in Riyadh, but the authorities declined to say when or how he died. Al-Hayek’s body was not returned to his family, causing speculation that he may have been tortured.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/riyadh/westerners_5-13.html (whole text)

(excerpt)

Westerners on Saudi soil have been a sensitive issue within the kingdom for over 50 years. U.S. military personnel arrived in conjunction with a mutual defense agreement in the early 1950's and were followed in ensuing decades by Western and other foreign workers recruited by the monarchy to help with modernization within many sectors of the economy, especially the oil industry.

During the 1990-1991 Gulf War, 600,000 allied forces streamed into the kingdom with the royal family's blessing in order to defend it from Saddam Hussein whose army had invaded Kuwait.
Some 5,000 to 10,000 troops stayed on after the Gulf War, primarily at the Prince Sultan Air Base. In early May, however, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld announced the removal of those troops to Qatar.

The increase of foreigners angered some radical Wahabbi clerics who opposed the presence of "infidels" on Saudi soil.

In 1991, one of those adherents, Osama bin Laden, was expelled from the kingdom and accused of working to overthrow the monarchy. Bin Laden was reportedly angry over the kingdom's alliance with the United States during the Gulf War and had offered instead to defend the country from Saddam Hussein with former mujahadeen troops from Afghanistan.

While concerted widespread violence against Westerners has never developed, militant Saudi dissidents have launched attacks on specific targets who they accuse of corrupting Islam's holiest territory.

One of the bloodiest of these attacks occurred in 1996, when the American troop residences in Khobar were bombed. The attack killed 19 U.S. soldiers and strained U.S.-Saudi relations due to disagreements over the ensuing investigation.

Hostility towards Westerners has long been a drawback for Americans considering work in the kingdom.

The Vinell Corporation lists a "harsh physical and cultural environment, no alcohol and few Western cultural amenities" as downsides to working in Saudi Arabia.

According to the U.S. State Department, consumption of alcohol within the kingdom is illegal, homo****** activity is considered a criminal offense, criticism of Islam or the monarchy is not allowed, the government may censor imported media materials, public non-Muslim religious worship is illegal, social contact between men and women who are not related is forbidden, and women are not allowed to drive cars.

Dancing, watching movies, and listening to music in public are also forbidden.

The State Department's Web site gives the following advice to women planning to visit the kingdom:

"The Saudi Embassy in Washington advises women traveling to Saudi Arabia to dress in a conservative fashion, wearing ankle-length dresses with long sleeves, and not to wear trousers in public. In many areas of Saudi Arabia, particularly Riyadh and the central part of the Kingdom, Mutawwa [religious police] pressure women to wear a full-length black covering known as an Abaya and to cover their heads. Most women in these areas therefore wear an Abaya and carry a head-scarf to avoid being accosted. Women who appear to be of Arab or Asian origin, especially those presumed to be Muslims, face a greater risk of being confronted."

http://mondediplo.com/1998/10/05saudi

Where foreigners know their place (whole text)


Having already suffered the effects of falling oil prices, Saudi Arabia is now entering a problem period due to uncertainty about the succession to King Fahd who has been seriously ill for several years. The country’s prosperity during the 1970s and 1980s was based on immigrant labour that made up almost 80% of its total workforce. Having long been subjected to petty controls and social segregation, Saudi Arabia’s migrant workers can now be expected to bear the brunt of the oncoming recession.
by Nicolas Bombacci

An advert that tells it all: a photograph showing the posing staff of a Saudi dealership specialising in imported American cars. Out of 44 employees in the photograph, only eight are Saudis, standing out in their red and white chequered keffiyahs. The rest are identifiably Asians or Europeans.

In common with other countries of the Arabian peninsula (Yemen excepted), Saudi Arabia has been a major importer of foreign workers. According to the 1992 census, the country had 4,324,459 immigrants compared to 12,304,835 nationals. These figures have been challenged on the grounds that the first figure is too high and the latter too low. However, the opposite may be the case. According to official statistics, the percentage of foreigners among the economically active population now exceeds 80%. Immigration is still on the increase, with 2,412,063 additional arrivals registered in the kingdom between 1991 and 1995. And in December 1995 the ministry of the interior confirmed the presence of 6,256,000 foreigners on Saudi soil.

The influx has not yet reached the scale of countries like Kuwait, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, where nationals represent only about a fifth of the total population. However, the presence of a large immigrant population (and one which is growing faster than the national population) is seen as a strategic problem. The lack of skilled personnel in the Saudi labour market, which makes it necessary to recruit foreigners, highlights the contradictions of a hard-line Islam which bars women from going out to work, depriving the country of half its potential workforce - even though the majority of students in Saudi Arabia are women.

There is also the perversity of a welfare state reserved solely for Saudi nationals. Less than a third of Saudis of working age actually have a job: the rest live on state benefits. The oil industry, construction and the service sector are largely dependent on foreign labour. This also goes for administrative jobs. Non-Saudis account for a quarter of all teachers, and an even greater percentage of public health workers. Despite an attempt to reverse this in 1995, 84% of doctors, 80% of nurses and 55% of pharmacists were still non-Saudis. The figures were as high as 87% among general practitioners, 81% among dentists, 79% among gynaecologists and obstetricians and 71% among paediatricians. And immigrants are even more prevalent in the private health sector, which is de facto the province of foreigners since they have no right to free health care in state hospitals.

Saudi Arabia’s foreign workers are concentrated in the towns. Their rate of urbanisation is reckoned at about 90% compared with 66% for Saudis - this in a society which was still 85% rural in 1950 and where the largest city, Mecca, had a population of only 80,000. Expatriates are already in a majority in the port of Jeddah.

Riyadh, the kingdom’s capital and initial starting-point of Saudi expansionism, is in the interior of the country and has been less open to foreigners. The city has grown rapidly to almost 3 million (1) - an increase of 10% a year compared with 3.2% nationally - partly as a result of the rural exodus, partly because of the influx of foreigners (2). Today 70% of potential building plots within its municipal boundaries have been built on, compared with only 40% in 1987. For the moment, the authorities have managed to stop the emergence of shanty towns, with oil incomes allowing plentiful housing facilities in which supply exceeds demand.

Land is provided free by the government - except to foreigners who are not entitled to become landowners. The Housing Finance Fund was set up by royal decree in 1974, offering construction loans up to a total of 300,000 riyals (3), repayable without interest over a period of 25 years. In 20 years it paid out an impressive $28.8 billion to 502,000 beneficiaries. In comparison, only 150,000 housing units were self-financed, and government funding for state employees and social housing account for fewer than 250,000 units. The great majority of housing in the country - more than 91% -- has been built by the private sector. The net result is that almost two-thirds of Saudis own their own properties.

Saudi Arabia’s oil reserves may have eased the problems of urbanisation, but they have not made it easier to deal with the problem of immigration. Already before the oil price shock of 1973 the country was taking in substantial numbers of immigrants: Yemenis, Eritreans and Sudanese in the western part of the country, and Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese and Iraqis for more professional positions. The oil boom changed the situation by creating a large demand for manual labour, which was filled initially by Pakistanis, and then by Indians and non-Muslim South Koreans.

Asian workers are now in the majority, and they have been particularly badly treated and exploited. They are at the bottom of a pyramid of racial hierarchy, at the top of which sit the Saudis, and under them the Europeans. Obviously, they have no right (as do Saudi nationals) to join trade unions or set up organisations. However, this has not prevented periodic rebellions - as was the case with Turkish and Pakistani workers in 1976, and the Koreans in 1977, following the example of Indian and Pakistani workers in Bahrain in 1974, in Dubai in 1977 and Oman in 1978.

The presence of half a million foreign soldiers during the Gulf war in 1991 did nothing to lessen the country’s tendency to xenophobia. Wahhabism, the official state religion, is intolerant of outside influences, not least those in the field of Islam (4). This isolationism makes its presence felt in the country’s immigration policies. Foreigners are kept at arm’s length. They are denied access to public services, which accounts for the spread of private schools and clinics. Women are not allowed to drive cars, or, with very few exceptions, hold paying jobs. When they come of age, children either have to leave the country or find a job. The fact that the expatriate community has only one woman to every five men poses a serious problem for people wanting to keep families together. In fact, religious leaders have protested against the restrictions that prevent immigrant workers from bringing in their spouses and children.

The living conditions of Saudi Arabia’s migrant workforce smack rather of segregation. For instance, companies employing more than 50 people are required to build housing for their employees. This means that foreign workers tend to be housed away from the rest of the population in places where land is cheap and available. The camps for Korean workers are notorious for their quasi-military discipline. The living quarters of the oil companies, with their wire-fence perimeters, are also closed totalitarian spaces, in the sense that they are self-sufficient, even if their garden-city atmosphere is initially more attractive than the country’s on-site barracks (5). Foreign professionals tend to rent apartments in town, unlike their Saudi peers, who own their own villas.

The layout of Riyadh, with its 1,000 sq km built on an American-style grid pattern designed for the motor car, is not particularly attractive. The diplomatic quarter is a gilded ghetto to which locals are denied entry. The only immigrants who have a chance to mix with the Saudi population are those who live in the older city centres, which are cheaper because they have been declared unfit for habitation and are due for demolition. As in the United States, urban growth is tending to take place in the suburbs of cities, which are now favoured locations for wealthier families.

The government controls not only how immigrants arrive, but also where they choose to settle. Land management by this essentially expansionist state has always, since its establishment in 1932, had a policing aspect. Up until 1975 the ministry of municipal and rural affairs was simply a department of the ministry of interior. Currently its policy is to encourage the creation of small towns along a development corridor, while trying to contain a rural exodus that is resulting in the depopulation of the kingdom’s strategic (and contested) border regions.

The Achilles’ heel of the immigration services is the haj (pilgrimage) which brings a million pilgrims thronging into Mecca each year. What is the point of risking a clandestine crossing of the border by foot, or the risky arrival by boat at Jizan? The pilgrims arrive at Jeddah, which has an airport accounting for 50% of all incoming flights, and a sea-port accounting for 80% of the foreigners arriving by sea. Technically, the visa for the haj is only valid for Jeddah and the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, and its validity rarely extends for more then three months.

Despite its elaborate policing arrangements, the haj is a nightmare for the security services. They try to avoid going into the holy sites to supervise the masses of pilgrims and the crowds are left to their own devices. The consequences have been serious. In 1998 118 people were killed when a crowd got out of control; in 1997 an accidental explosion caused 343 deaths; a further 270 died in 1994 and 1,426 died of suffocation in 1990. Not to mention the political violence by Saudi fundamentalists in 1979 and Iranian Shiites in 1987.

In this pandemonium it is not hard for would-be immigrants to exploit the inviolability of the holy places as a way to remain in the country. Having arrived, they pay small fortunes to pass through the police cordons, whereupon they are hidden in the bottom of lorries and make their way to other parts of the country in search of work.


A political weapon

There is, of course, a legal way for a non-Muslim to get a job in Saudi Arabia. You find a Saudi sponsor (kafil) who stands as guarantor for you as an immigrant, enabling you to obtain the precious residence permit (iqama). This procedure has generated a whole new line of business: it is not unknown for Saudis to sell the visas of which they are the nominal holders, and in exchange take a percentage of whatever the immigrant goes on to earn.

Alongside major companies whose activities are sanctioned by the government, there is also a vast array of small companies whose only purpose is to bring in foreign workers - often then leaving them to fend for themselves in the job market. The expulsions of immigrants in 1997 were intended to eliminate these recruitment intermediaries, probably with a view to concentrating this lucrative trade in the hands of the 7,000-strong royal family.

In theory, Saudi Arabia has no immigration quotas. Companies address their needs on a case-by-case basis to the authorities, and whether or not visas are granted depends on the size of the company and the public standing of the kafil. Then there are specific (and contradictory) conditions: for instance, a bachelor may not hire a Filipino female domestic - that would be considered immoral. On the other hand, a handicapped person may hire the services of a foreign nurse, even if she is not married...

This system of visa allocation makes systematic control of the immigrant workforce impossible. Before the 1997 expulsions it was quite possible for foreign workers to be in the employ of a company other than the one that had sponsored them. Now, however, transfers from one sponsor to another are only permitted on condition they are properly registered and, in each instance, furnished with a valid visa. However, since employers can terminate work contracts more or less at will, it often happens that workers are not able to find a new kafil and join the underground economy rather than leave the country.

The severity of Saudi anti-immigration measures would gladden the hearts of the world’s anti-foreigner lobbies. In 1979 Riyadh expelled 88,000 foreigners for not having the correct paperwork. On 19 September 1990 a royal decree made Yemenis, who up until then had been free to settle in the country, subject to the standard rules for immigrants, and upwards of 800,000 were sent home. In August-October 1997 400,000 illegal immigrants of all nationalities "chose" to leave Saudi Arabia under an amnesty which promised no further legal action against them. The official reason for the move was the need to establish control of the labour market and to get more Saudis into the workforce.

However, for Riyadh such expulsions also have a political function. The expulsion of the Yemenis in 1990 served two purposes - as punishment for a country seen as sympathising with Iraq after the invasion of Kuwait and to warn Sanaa against entertaining democratic notions that might threaten the Saudi monarchy. Saudi Arabia has never had reservations about interfering in the internal affairs of Yemen. Following the British colonial practice of divide and rule, Wahhabi Islam has worked to increase the tensions between Yemen’s two main Muslim communities, the Zaydis and the Shafi’s. After the 1962 revolution, the Saudis supported the royalists against the Nasserite republicans and their Egyptian allies. In 1994 they supported the secessionists of South Yemen, despite their communist past and their friendly relations with Russia, Cuba and China.

At present the 424,000 Yemenis still officially resident in Saudi Arabia serve effectively as hostages in the border dispute between Riyadh and Sanaa. Although the Mecca accord (24 February 1995) endorsed the Treaty of Taif (20 May 1934) which ended the state of war between the two countries (6), Yemen has never given up hope of regaining the "lost provinces" of Assir, Najran and Jizan. Particularly since Saudi Arabia still shows signs of interest in annexing the Hadramaut, with a view to accessing the Indian Ocean. This explains why, every so often, Riyadh sends a "signal" to Sanaa, by expelling numbers of Yemenis. Sixteen thousand more were expelled in early 1998.

In other words, the fate of the immigrant workforce in Saudi Arabia is dictated in large part by strategic and political considerations. Unfortunately for them, they are also subject to the machinations of a police state. Eldorado is not necessarily all it appears to be, and the black gold has left a bad taste in the mouths of hundreds of thousands intent on improving their lot.


.........and so on, and so on.......

[seruriermarshal]

Yes , must kill those sh*t !

[cold0]

Many of you simply don't know the italian immigration problem; during the '90s the Italy is became the "landing zone" for the illegal immigration coming from North Africa and Middle East. The 90% of the immigrants are muslims and generally stay in Italy for a brief period, before to go in the North Europe. Tecnically they are "illegal" immigrants, so we have all the rights to send them back, a thing that we haven't made for humanitarian reasons; cleary no other europen country is bother of the "italian problem", until the immigrants pop up in German, Belgium ect. So the Italians are the only ones that must patrol the european south border (mainly the Mediterranean Sea), but can't expel the immigrants ('cause all the leftish europeans start to cry about "barbaric" and "inhuman" solution) and don't received any form of help from other europen nations but only blame when the immigrants arrive in other EU countries.

The things are change only in the last 2 years; first, the Italians have discover that a minority of muslim immigrant population is sympatetic with Bin- Laden and his cronies and that Milan was became one of the major recruitment e financial centre in Europe for Al-Qeada and similar organizations. As you can see, our "illegal" immigrants are very grateful for the fact that we have give them the possibility to stay in Italy.
Second, our governement has take the decision to "enforce" our immigration politicy simply starting to send back the people that are in Italy withour permission. We can "lawfully" expel them and our police has start to send them at home before the proposal of a reveage action for the kidnapping out citizens in Iraq.
Cleary, the first to go were been all the "grateful" immigrants that supported Al-Qeada, recruited wanna-be suicide bombers or fighters to send them in Iraqi, or, even worse, were planning some ostile actions on italian soil.

So we have all the right to defende us from these people, that we have received in our country and they have paid- back sending suicide bombers against out troops in Iraq and planning bombing actions as in Madrid.

[mrfloppy]

cold0 wrote
...The 90% of the immigrants are muslims and generally stay in Italy for a brief period, before to go in the North Europe. Tecnically they are "illegal" immigrants, so we have all the rights to send them back, a thing that we haven't made for humanitarian reasons; cleary no other europen country is bother of the "italian problem", until the immigrants pop up in German, Belgium ect.....So we have all the right to defende us from these people, that we have received in our country and they have paid- back sending suicide bombers against out troops in Iraq and planning bombing actions as in Madrid.

Of course, you have the right to protect your borders and control immigration - nobody in Europe would complain about that - especially not those countrys that have to bear the burden of "feeding" those immigrants after they left Italy. The reason for Italy's lax immigration policy is rather to be seen in the fact, that most immigrants leave your country within a few days, than in anybody's complaints about human rights. Italy is responsible for securing its borders alone - this is not a question of negligence of the problem by its European partners.

[cold0]

The reason for Italy's lax immigration policy is rather to be seen in the fact, that most immigrants leave your country within a few days, than in anybody's complaints about human rights. Italy is responsible for securing its borders alone - this is not a question of negligence of the problem by its European partners.

I's not a problem to find, and stop, the ship that carry the immigrants; our Coastal Guard and Navy have find, in the last years, the major of these ships. But they can only escort the ships the nearest ports; but we can't imprison them in a "centro d'accoglienza" forever. So when they the centro, generally giving false ID datas, our Police isn't able to track them. The Police can only hope to stop them during a regular document check but, until sometimes ago, the immigrants could oppose an expulsion order going to an italian jury. So until the italian jury has take a decision about the expulsion, the immigrants are free again and, generally, they disappear without traces.

The only solution is to expel them almost immediatly after they are landed in Italy; a measure that is jugded "inhuman" in many european nations.

But, after all, is it only an italian problem, isn't?

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Dude, Jawwas have no hearts...I do not see what we're going to do with them. "You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

We just need to clear out a huge space of land in Canada or Greenland and tell all MUSLIM EXTREMISTS that we moved all their holy **** there and we'll give them a free boat ride and even $10,000 per person to go there and leave everyone in the world alone. Who knows, maybe it would work...

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Dude, Jawwas have no hearts...I do not see what we're going to do with them. "You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

We just need to clear out a huge space of land in Canada or Greenland and tell all MUSLIM EXTREMISTS that we moved all their holy **** there and we'll give them a free boat ride and even $10,000 per person to go there and leave everyone in the world alone. Who knows, maybe it would work...
Nah lets just leave them where they are or belong, anyways I hear that Texas has a large and growing population of Muslims is this true?

[ikurinturbiini]

Berlusconi is an unpredictable, bombastic windbag.
So is Vladimir Putin.

Tee hee! You said that, not me! But I disagree. Putin's image is carefully planned, even to the point that it resembles the soviet-style cult of personality. Berlusconi, on the other hand, is notorious for saying stupid things about Germans/Finland/you name it, and he is continually making his PR-people cringe.

Berlusconi is a buffoon, but a powerful one. Putin is a cold executioner, and a very powerful one, too.

[cut]

Obviously you haven't got a clue who Heydrich was and what happened there and you just plucked a german name from the WWII and threw it in the open. I am totally behind mr. Calderoli on this!! go for it Silvio!! We don't want Islam in Europe. not now or ever.

Getting rid of greece is more likely, despite joining the EU ages ago they are poorer then some of the post communist countries joining in a few days.

If you say we don't want people people of a certain race in Europe it's you guys that are going to get kicked out for dragging your arses economically.

[Uninen]

Berlusconi is an unpredictable, bombastic windbag.
So is Vladimir Putin.

Again, your picking on a another Finn, cause you think because of a an avatar he has that his Russian... :cantbeli:

[Durandal]

another holocaust? :cantbeli: It's as simple way to deal with the problem as turning the blind eye on it... Why don't You propose smth a bit more complicated...?

OK, I will. Rather than expelling LEGALL citizens you simple ignore the demands.

That is even MORE simple and shows just as much strong will as a nation.

"Not only are we not going to meet your demands but we treat our muslim population better than you ever would. No F*CK OFF."

Or is that too much common sense for you haters out there? Why is every nationalists answer to muslim integration into society, expelling them?

Pure idiocy.

Reghardless of how it appears currently, we, being hte world, WANT muslims to integrate into society, and they cannot do that living inthe Middle east. So it has to be Europe, Canada, The United States, Indonesia, etc. That is the best solution.

Yet, you always have some idiot suggesting you somehow attack innocent citizens of their own nation to solve the problem which does nothing to actually solve the problem. In fact it only goes to show the less militant, moderate, and completely seperated muslims that the frothing fanatics are actually right.

SO, I supplied you with a far more simple solution and one that DRIPS with common sense.

Cheers!

[Threelions]

Obviously you haven't got a clue who Heydrich was and what happened there and you just plucked a german name from the WWII and threw it in the open. I am totally behind mr. Calderoli on this!! go for it Silvio!! We don't want Islam in Europe. not now or ever.

I agree. Islam and Western values are simply incompatibles...


LOl, thats a realy good one. Expell a certain religion because a couple of thugs are holding hostages in a country multiple thousand kilometers away.
You creamed your pants? You must be fairly easy to get going if a short sighted anger filled idea like that can get you off.



Another ultra-tolerant, liberal guy... :roll:

I am really tired of all this ****. I never see Muslims living in the West condamning Al-Qaeda or go down in the streets to show solidarity with the victims of terrorism. I have the impression that the majority of Muslims immigrants in the West silently agree with those Al-Qaeda terrorists...

There is something wrong in the West at the moment, and nobody cares...

This idea of expelling 1000 muslims for every hostage that is killed is the stupidest thing i have heard in a very long time. Since when do we europeans, north americans and British condon the idea of punishing innocent people for the actions of a few guilty people? I strongly doubt that any think half as stupid as this would ever take off, because europe still lives in the shadow of German atrocities during WWII which strted out just like this.

To even partially agree with a comment like this show such an amazing level of inhumanity and utter disregard for the sanctity of western freedom. Trying to lessen a persons argument against this horrible idea by labeling it "ultra-tolerant liberal" is absolutely ridiculous. This isnt Ultra liberal, this is western freedom and democracy. The only thing wrong in the west is the fact that their hate is breeding hate in the west and its starting to show.

Here are a few pics i have too show you western muslims hurt just the same as the rest of us in the west.

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/FLMuslimaAmericanflagicna.jpg

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/Iranvigil0918-03.jpg
Tehran September 18

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/Bangladeshpeacemarch.jpg
Bangledeshi Muslims after September 11

Cheers

[cold0]

another holocaust? :cantbeli: It's as simple way to deal with the problem as turning the blind eye on it... Why don't You propose smth a bit more complicated...?

OK, I will. Rather than expelling LEGALL citizens you simple ignore the demands.

That is even MORE simple and shows just as much strong will as a nation.

"Not only are we not going to meet your demands but we treat our muslim population better than you ever would. No F*CK OFF."

Or is that too much common sense for you haters out there? Why is every nationalists answer to muslim integration into society, expelling them?

Pure idiocy.

Reghardless of how it appears currently, we, being hte world, WANT muslims to integrate into society, and they cannot do that living inthe Middle east. So it has to be Europe, Canada, The United States, Indonesia, etc. That is the best solution.

Yet, you always have some idiot suggesting you somehow attack innocent citizens of their own nation to solve the problem which does nothing to actually solve the problem. In fact it only goes to show the less militant, moderate, and completely seperated muslims that the frothing fanatics are actually right.

SO, I supplied you with a far more simple solution and one that DRIPS with common sense.

Cheers!

Come on, someone really think we could expel 1000 muslims for every italian citizen that these SOBs kidnap?
We haven't even the gut to expel the illegal ones!!!
What really anger me is that all that have posted in this forum are more concern with the "bold" phrase said by an italian politic than with the fate of the hostages.

And we all know as this situation will end; the italian government will not do anything and they will kill the hostages. PERIOD.

Regards,

Regards,

[Truthsayer]

If they don't release the kidnapped workers you should hijack a couple of airplanes and drive them into the biggest buildings in Iraq.

You are already stepping over the line with arguing for commiting terrorist-actions, why not go all the way?

[HELEX]

:roll:

Berlusconi..... Berlusconi.... well, Im not surprised. He and his administration is really professional in producing Bull****. Well, or professional in changing Laws just for himself.... :cantbeli:

[fdt]

another holocaust? :cantbeli: It's as simple way to deal with the problem as turning the blind eye on it... Why don't You propose smth a bit more complicated...?

OK, I will. Rather than expelling LEGALL citizens you simple ignore the demands.

That is even MORE simple and shows just as much strong will as a nation.

"Not only are we not going to meet your demands but we treat our muslim population better than you ever would. No F*CK OFF."

Or is that too much common sense for you haters out there? Why is every nationalists answer to muslim integration into society, expelling them?

Pure idiocy.

Reghardless of how it appears currently, we, being hte world, WANT muslims to integrate into society, and they cannot do that living inthe Middle east. So it has to be Europe, Canada, The United States, Indonesia, etc. That is the best solution.

Yet, you always have some idiot suggesting you somehow attack innocent citizens of their own nation to solve the problem which does nothing to actually solve the problem. In fact it only goes to show the less militant, moderate, and completely seperated muslims that the frothing fanatics are actually right.

SO, I supplied you with a far more simple solution and one that DRIPS with common sense.

Cheers!First: Thank You for calling me hater... which i am not. Second; All i wanted to hear/read was where are the mistakes of the contemporary Europe as it apparently fails to integrate the arab/muslim society. This attitude doesn't assume expelling nobody, it is to provoke a discussion about the both cultures relationships within the democratic system. Why is there so much mutual mistrust and hate.... isn't that good ol' European racism? You wrote smth that You called solution... well it's Your right to think what You wish, but remember that this solution has been being applied for last 30 years... What are the effects? Answer Yourself that Q.

[cold0]

:roll:

Berlusconi..... Berlusconi.... well, Im not surprised. He and his administration is really professional in producing Bull****. Well, or professional in changing Laws just for himself.... :cantbeli:

HELEX,

First, the proposal to expel the muslims doesn't come from the italian government but a member of one party that support the actual government.

Second, it's better that you think to your politics than to speak of things that you don't know.

[foxtrot023]

In regards to what is being posted here, I must say that the measure proposesd by Berlusconi is exactly what AQ and other dirtbags want. AQ`s main goal is a clash of civilizations, and the way they are going to get it is by commiting terrorists attacks to the point in which all westerners view ALL muslims as potential terrorists, and measures like the one Berlusconi proposes become common place. This is turn will create even more hatred between westerners and muslims, which will add fuel to the flames.

The solution to this problem is neither simple, nor will it be easy, but here are my 2 cents:

1. Hunt down terrorists and kill them
2. Stronger inmigration rules, specially for muslims (but don`t curtail them, after all they do work in jobs we don`t want), however, this inmigration must be controlled via a system of annual lottery of visas, and anyone without a visa is out.
3. The hard part- We need to create a stable Middle East (since their governors are incapable of doing it), one that has employment, good government, thereby we kill two birds with one stone: Less inmigration, since there should be better opportunities in the ME and two, we remove some of the breeding grounds of terrorism.

Only then, we might see an end to war of terrorism. We finish terrorists the same way we eliminated the yellow fever: You kill their breeding grounds. With some measure of development, terrorist will have a much harder time recruting (BTW this is how we have almost eliminated ETA, by giving the Basque counties enough autonomy, freedom, etc.).

Regards all

[Truthsayer]

Got another solution: Ship 1000 muslums a day to Iran, make sure they all get mis-treated during the transport and then tell them they are all terrorist-lovers and deserve to die.

Leave them to the religios goverment of Iran to be educated.

And there will be ever-lasting peace.

[cold0]

If they don't release the kidnapped workers you should hijack a couple of airplanes and drive them into the biggest buildings in Iraq.

You are already stepping over the line with arguing for commiting terrorist-actions, why not go all the way?

I never said that with must retailate terrorist actions with other terrorist actions; I have said that, in Italy, we have problems even with illegal immigration, it's totally out rule that we expel our muslims citizens or other muslims from our country just for revenge.
The sad thing is that you are more concerned with a provocatorial menace that with the realty. We have 3 hostage killed in next five days and no one care.
If you want to find someone that really hate the others only because they have a different religion well..... see here http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13329[/b]

[fdt]

Problem for Europe is that it wants to be progressive and multicultural... where accepting multicultural context of islam it feels like going backwards... So again what Europe is going to do? Has any politician any idea?


http://cbn.org/CBNNews/CWN/032604europe.asp

Culture Clash: Muslims in Europe

By Dale Hurd
CWNews

March 26, 2004

There is no exaggerating Arab and Muslim anger and resentment. Most Arab immigrants live in slums, with four to five times the unemployment rate of native Europeans.

CWNews.org – The most common name for baby boys in Brussels is Mohammed. There are as many as 15 million Arabs and Muslims living in Europe. Europe needs babies and immigrants, because its birthrate has imploded, but Europe's not sure it wants these immigrants, because it fears the rise of Islam.

The political temperature is rising in Europe. Arabs and Muslims already felt like outsiders before France banned the headscarves in schools. The Dutch parliament voted to expel 26,000 asylum seekers, many of them from the Third World. Some are wondering if it is the beginning of an anti-immigrant backlash.

Many Europeans are nervous. They like to think that they are more enlightened and tolerant than the rest of the world, but that tolerance is being tested by a wave of immigration that could change the face of Europe.

Anti-immigrant far-right parties are growing all across the continent. In Austria, The Freedom Party; In Italy, the Northern League; in Switzerland, The People's Party; In France, The National Front; In Belgium, The Flemish Block; In Denmark, the People's Party, In Norway, The Progress Party.

Jean-Marie Le Pen, of France's far-right political party National Front, told CBN News that the cause of most of France's problems are immigrants from Africa and Asia, and his slogan is "France for the French."

Frank Vanhecke is leader of the Vlaams Blok, or Flemish Block, in Belgium. The party is strong in Belgium's Dutch-speaking North, and is poised to take over the Antwerp city government. Vanhecke is worried about the growth of what he says is a radical Islamic sub-culture that refuses to assimilate, and which has begun demanding that Arabic become an official language of Belgium.

Vanhecke said, "This is the kind of people we are dealing with - people who do not come to our country to adapt, to make a new life, to start again, to make a living, to be thankful for the country that accepts them. We are talking about people who, in fact, come to us as rulers, who want to become masters in our country. And I personally think, I fear, that this is a part of the Islamic religion."

His party's platform calls for all immigrants who refuse to adapt to the values and language of Belgium to be returned to their home countries.

Gareth Harding, UPI Bureau Chief in Brussels, commented, "I think, incontestably, the far right is on the march." And those marching with it, he said, are the angry.

Harding added, "I think that they feel, by talking to them there, betrayed by these mainstream parties who have simply refused to deal with common concerns about immigration, and about crime and falling standards of living."

German policy analyst Mirjam Dittrich thinks the right wing threat is overblown.

He said, "I think there is xenophobia in Europe. And, of course, there are right wing parties that are exploiting existing fears and are playing on those fears. But I think at the same time we shouldn't exaggerate the threat of these right wing parties."

But there is no exaggerating Arab and Muslim anger and resentment. Most Arab immigrants live in slums, with four to five times the unemployment rate of native Europeans. They feel like outsiders, and many are turning to radical Arab leaders like Diyab Abou JahJah. JahJah's been called the Belgian Malcolm X. He's the head of the Arab European League in Antwerp. And he says White Europe doesn't want to face reality.

JahJah said, "It doesn't want to adapt to the fact that this society is multicultural now. It still behaves and acts as if we were like 50 years ago, when everybody here was white and Catholic and talking Dutch."

But JahJah, who leads those who feel like outsiders, doesn't want Arab and Muslim culture to be assimilated into Europe. And that is exactly what the right wing fears.

"We do not want to debate integration or assimilation, " says JahJah, "because we don't believe in that kind of debate. We believe in a debate about how a country should treat its own citizens, because we are not foreigners."

There may now be as many as seven Arabs for every Jew in Europe, and some believe that is the major reason that anti-Semitism has returned to Europe. A poll last year showed that most Europeans now think Israel is the biggest threat to world peace. Attacks on synagogues, schools, cemeteries and Jews are reminiscent of the 1930's.

Jewish student Eli Mamane said, "I've had people call me dirty jew, stinking jew, smelly jew. They've said, 'You Jews are [the] world's problem at the moment.' "
Michael Whine of the Jewish Community Security Trust, said, "Anti-Semitism now comes from Islamists, from the Middle East, from the Arab media, and there's an overspill, both of tension in the Middle East and the anti-Semitism that's being promoted within the Arab states itself."

But unlike most Arabs in the Middle East, Arabs in Europe can vote. And as their political clout grows, Europe is likely to become more anti-Semitic, more anti-Israel, more anti-American. A clash of civilizations is looming in Europe. France tried to strike a blow to Islamic separatism when it banned headscarves on Muslim schoolgirls. Muslim leaders warn the ban will backfire.

But after the headscarf ban, Dr. Dalil Boubakeur, the leading moderate Muslim spokesman in France, told a newspaper that French Muslims had become social pariahs, and he predicted violence in the streets. Even before the headscarf ban it was not uncommon for Arab demonstrations to end in riots. And as anti-immigrant parties convince more Europeans that Islam is a threat to European civilization, their power will grow.

Vlaams Blok's Vanhecke said, "The Islamic religion is a religion of force, which despises non-Islamic peoples. I think this may sound hard, but I think it's the truth."

With immigrants having babies three times faster than native Europeans, Europe's future is going to be multi-cultural. But it may not be peaceful.

[foxtrot023]

In regards to that article FDT, that is why we should control inmigration, and perhaps help muslims countries to develop, as that will curtail inmigration, since after all, who wants to leave their native country if they can find a good life there?

Otherwise we will be swamped by inmigrants from the ME, and then the far right goons will have ammo for their campaigns

[mrfloppy]

cold0 wrote
The sad thing is that you are more concerned with a provocatorial menace that with the realty. We have 3 hostage killed in next five days and no one care.

Well, the only ones that could take care of that are the Italian government or the Coalition forces - if they knew where the hostages are being held.

There seems to be no hope for the hostages, as Italy can't give in and withdraw its troops. As bad as it is, those three Italians are doomed, unless the Iraqis show some mercy. You can hardly threaten the terrorists to retaliate, because the are already in a state of war.

[-Max2-]

Threelions: Unfortunately, its only a minority of Muslims...

And just for you:


Most British Muslims do not blame al-Qa'ida for attacks.

By Andrew Grice

Seven out of 10 Muslims in Britain believe the war on terrorism is a war on Islam, an opinion poll published yesterday shows.

More than half of the British-based Muslims questioned believe Osama bin Laden and his al-Qa'ida network should not have been blamed for the 11 September attacks in the United States



And if i remember correctly, 80% of British Muslims said that they considered themselves Muslims first, and British citizens second according to a poll...

[mrfloppy]

Regarding the last article, fdt:

A somewhat biased article, especially when mixing up European criticism of Israeli politics with European anti-semitism and muslim anti-semitism. That's three different problems, each one has to be solved differently.

Europe has to be aware of those, who don't want to integrate in our western society - foxtrot023 has made a good point about that.

[The Walrus]

Hmmmmm, this wouldn't make the 1 billion Muslims that live in the world think that the west is declaring a war on Islam, thus dis-illusioning them further and playing into the hands of Al-Quaeda.
:cantbeli:

[cold0]

There seems to be no hope for the hostages, as Italy can't give in and withdraw its troops. As bad as it is, those three Italians are doomed, unless the Iraqis show some mercy. You can hardly threaten the terrorists to retaliate, because the are already in a state of war.

The Italians don't want reteliate against no ones!! We have tried to find a paeceful solutions without giving up, thing that is resulted impossible. Even yesterday italian members of Red Cross were at Falluja to provide confort to the local population only to be treatened by local "insurgents".

And, for someone, we are even racists!

[mrfloppy]

The Italians don't want reteliate against no ones!!

You seem to have misundertood me, I just wanted to say, that those guys can't even be threatened to give in and release their hostages.

[Saranof]

I agree. Islam and Western values are simply incompatibles...

I am really tired of all this ****. I never see Muslims living in the West condamning Al-Qaeda or go down in the streets to show solidarity with the victims of terrorism. I have the impression that the majority of Muslims immigrants in the West silently agree with those Al-Qaeda terrorists...

There is something wrong in the West at the moment, and nobody cares...

Really? Whys that? Could it be because people like you have an attidute of hatred towards them? :roll:

I see plenty of muslims here protesting against all kinds of bad thins that happed, not only al qaeda attacks. Since al qaeda mostley harms thier reputation (though islam has really lttle to do with al qaeda) they don't like em.
BUT in some cases, they go with them, just because people like you seem to think that all muslims are evil- doers.
Not so strange many Iraqis think that all americans are evil, just because they get to see intolerant hill billies all the time.

[Saranof]

Yes, lets shift 1000 muslims evey day, we need more lebensraum...oh, sorry? Did I just compare Berlusconi to a certain mustached little man? Of course, Berlusconi has never expressed such opinions! Just because he means to piss muslims worldwide and confirm many muslims belife that westerners hate them, by throwing 1000 of them out because of something they had no control over, and the fact that he trys to change laws to suit himself, dosn't make him a bad person!
rofl

[-Max2-]

Really? Whys that? Could it be because people like you have an attidute of hatred towards them?

BUT in some cases, they go with them, just because people like you seem to think that all muslims are evil- doers.


Where did i say that i hated Muslims ?

I have a different opinion, so i am a "hater"... :roll:

[henksmoeder]

I can't believe that this post isn't immediately locked or something. The idea is purely a nazi idea, deporting large groups people selected only by belief. It would make the conflict escalate even more if we make it a religious crusade.

What I do not understand on this board is that when somebody says anything about Israel, he is called an anti-semit immediatly (although sometimes deserved). When we are talking about doing to muslims what the nazis did to jews, nobody seems to give a f***. :bash: This is pure anti-islamitism.

Another terrible racist comment was about how Europeans wouldn't want muslims in their community. Why wouldn't we? I don't want to live in an all christian country and i know for a fact that the majority wouldn't want to go back to times were we had even stronger feelings of black/white, christian/'heretic'.

Not even to mention (can't remember when) when seoulstriker said something about how A LOT of muslims want to decapitate westeners. Did you ever see a muslim? Did you ever recieve their hospitality? NOT every muslim is an extremist, man!

Me = speechless and startled :(

[ShadowNeo]

Don't let it get to you henksmoeder, your bound to get more than your fair share of people with "extremist" views on the internet, not that this forum is an accurate representation of the real world anyway.

I, and many other people, are in total agreement with your views :).

[DLodge]

Never mind.

[Fox2]

I agree with most here when they say that it won't help the situation to expel 1,000 immigrants each day.

I'm glad I'm not the one who has to make the decisions, though.

[Pooga]

I wish we knew where the hostages are…or rather where the hostage-takers are…

[SeanAshi]

Bangledeshi Muslims after September 11
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/Bangladeshpeacemarch.jpg
Palestinians on September 11
http://www.yesha.org.il/pic1.jpg
http://www.yesha.org.il/pic2.jpg
http://www.yesha.org.il/plo1.jpg
http://www.yesha.org.il/plo2.jpg
http://www.yesha.org.il/plo3.jpg
http://www.yesha.org.il/plo4.jpg
http://www.yesha.org.il/pic22.jpg

[Durandal]

Problem for Europe is that it wants to be progressive and multicultural...

Actually, Europe has NEVER been progressive and mutlicultural. Unless by saying progressive you mean soclialist and by multicutural you mean nationalistic, then I would agree.

[DLodge]

Just thought I'd post this so certain people might become a little more informed...

Muslim Troops Highlight Nation's Diversity

By Linda D. Kozaryn

American Forces Press Service


WASHINGTON -- Qaseem Ali Uqdah and Abdullah Hamza Al-Mubarak
share a common goal. Both former enlisted men aim to help make
life a little easier for people in the armed forces who share
their faith.

Uqdah, a former Marine, and Al-Mubarak, a former airman, are
followers of Islam, a religion based on the teachings of the
prophet Mohammed. The 1.2 billion who practice the faith
worldwide are known as Muslims. They believe in one God, Allah,
and abide by religious laws written in the Koran, Islam's holy
book.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States. The
Council on American-Islamic Relations here estimates there are
now 6 million Muslims in America compared to 2 million in the
early 1970s. Nearly half are African-American converts. The rest
are immigrants from such countries as India, Pakistan, and Arab
and African nations.

Uqdah and Al-Mubarak converted to Islam and while on active duty
often found themselves with nowhere to turn for religious
guidance. For the most part, Muslim chaplains were unheard of in
the armed forces. When the two service members left the enlisted
ranks, they set out to help their religious brethren in uniform.

Uqdah, a 21-year Marine Corps veteran, today heads the American
Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Council, based in
Arlington, Va. Al-Mubarak is now an Air Force Reserve second
lieutenant and attending the School of Islamic and Social
Sciences in Leesburg, Va. Upon completing seminary training in
May, he will become the Air Force's first Muslim chaplain.

"When I started at Parris Island [Marine Corps Recruit Depot,
S.C.] in 1975, there was no support for Muslim service members,"
Uqdah recalled. The former gunnery sergeant has worked to change
that since he retired eight years ago. "It's been a labor of
love. This is like Christian missionary work. We have to have
someone focus on it. If you don't, it's going to fall short."

Since Uqdah and Al-Mubarak served in the enlisted ranks,
military leaders have come to recognize Muslim service members'
religious needs. Things have improved somewhat for the estimated
4,000 Muslim service members now on active duty. Two Muslim
chaplains serve the Army and two serve the Navy.

Along with Al-Mubarak, two more Muslim chaplain candidates are
in training, one for the Air Force and one for the Army. The
first permanent Islamic mosque, the Masjid al Da'wah, opened at
Norfolk Navy Base, Va., last November for the estimated 750
Muslim sailors there.

Al-Mubarak said he experienced "a certain level of anxiety and
emptiness" not having a chaplain of the same faith. He said he
missed having someone who could facilitate his religious needs
and understood his religious etiquette.

In 1995, he took the initiative to find out why there were so
few Muslim chaplains and got the ball rolling to do what he
could to change that. Two years later, he picked up his
commission and entered the Air Force chaplain candidate program.
The program allows the military and the candidate to look each
other over while the candidate's enrolled in seminary, he said.

Today, Al-Mubarak goes on active duty during seminary training
breaks and works with chapel staffs. "In my case, whatever base
I go to, it has been something new for everybody," he said.
"Other chaplains have been fantastic at showing me what it takes
to be a chaplain -- how to help airmen, how to work within an
ecumenical environment to facilitate other faith groups without
compromising your own."

Uqdah and Al-Mubarak recently helped senior military leaders
recognize Muslim service members. Deputy Defense Secretary John
J. Hamre and Vice Adm. Vern Clark, director of the Joint Staff,
invited them and about 25 Muslim service members to the Pentagon
Jan. 15 in honor of the month-long celebration of Ramadan.

During Ramadan, Muslims do not eat, drink or have ******
intercourse from sunup to sundown. After sundown, they break the
fast during "Iftar." This was the second annual Ramadan Iftar
hosted at the Pentagon.

Uqdah said the event is designed to remind commanders and senior
enlisted members that they have Muslim service members within
their ranks.

"Often, Muslim service members have the support of the chaplain,
but the one who truly makes a difference is that commanding
officer," he said. "When an issue comes up with respect to
religious accommodation, ... the chaplain will make a
recommendation, but the commanding officer is the one who says,
'This is what's going to happen.'"

By recognizing Muslim service members at the Pentagon, military

leaders send a clear signal to the field that "Muslim soldiers
are there; take care of them," Uqdah said.

Before dining, the Muslim troops turned toward Mecca, the Muslim
holy city in Saudi Arabia, and chanted prayers led by Army
Muslim Chaplain (Capt.) Mohammed Khan of the 519th Military
Intelligence Battalion, Fort Bragg, N.C. Khan also led prayers
during the first Iftar at the Pentagon.

Khan, an 18-year Army veteran born in India, said he originally
worked in preventive medicine in the Army Nurse Corps. He said
he became the Army's second Muslim chaplain in May 1997.

"They were looking for chaplains, so I switched over," he said.
"I was already serving the Army, educating commanders and troops
about Islam, especially during Desert Storm. I was writing
articles about Muslim events like Ramadan and dietary
requirements for Muslim soldiers."

Khan said the annual Pentagon celebration of Ramadan is very
encouraging and supportive for Muslim soldiers. "It indicates
the integrity of the armed forces that they're committed to all
faiths," he said.

One guest who accompanied Khan from Fort Bragg echoed the
chaplain's view. Army Pfc. Boukassim Khalid of C Company, 1st
Battalion, 321st Field Artillery, said the Iftar celebration
gave him a chance to meet some fellow Muslims and discuss
religious issues. Originally from Morocco, Khalid said he joined
the military two years ago to earn education benefits. "Muslim
troops are a minority, but they are a part of the military," he
said.

After Muslim service members said prayers and broke their day's
fast with water and dates, Clark expressed his appreciation for
their contribution to the nation's defense. "I'm thankful that
we're here where it's all right for us to have different views
and different faiths," he said. "Diversity is part of our
greatness."

Hamre, who also spoke at last year's event, told the group, "we
come together as people of faith who have assumed a larger
responsibility -- service to our country."

Hamre said the fundamental principles expressed in the
Constitution -- liberty, justice, equality and opportunity --
are the same fundamental values of Muslims, Christians and Jews.
"We are faithful to our Constitution only if we recognize the
religious freedoms and rights of all of our soldiers, sailors,
airmen and Marines," he said.

[Durandal]

...this attitude doesn't assume expelling nobody, it is to provoke a discussion about the both cultures relationships within the democratic system. Why is there so much mutual mistrust and hate.... isn't that good ol' European racism? You wrote smth that You called solution... well it's Your right to think what You wish, but remember that this solution has been being applied for last 30 years... What are the effects? Answer Yourself that Q.

Listen, Europe is not some great melting pot. Sorry. The problem is that minorities in Europe get treated like sh*t, period. Probably more so than they do in America. French attitudes towards muslims (regardless of origin), German treatment of East Germans following the reunification. Western Europe's general treatment (economicaly) of Eastern Europe. General treatment of Jews, etc.

What is happening here is that YOU posted an article that confuses two seperate issues. One a foreign one and the other a domestic one. In theory the two are unrelated.

So which do you want to talk about? Europe's dealing with (or lack there of) with terrorism? Or Europe's inability to deal with immigration and the socialist laws that ecourage it?

[radon]

Expelling 1000 random muslims , how does Berlusconi want to justify that? This is slightly similiar like penalties for the family od the wrongdoer. well I dont believe Berlusconi/Italy will do that anyway.

In Finland the treatment of immigrants is often better than the natives , by officials that is . Minorities are certainly not treted like **** in Finland.
the newcomers have to adapt MORE than the native population.

The immigrants have to respect the rules of the country not the other way around. Immigration from backward third world countries creates only many problems.

[Pooga]

Good call, SeanAshi.

[radon]

Listen, Europe is not some great melting pot. Sorry. The problem is that minorities in Europe get treated like sh*t, period. Probably more so than they do in America. French attitudes towards muslims (regardless of origin), German treatment of East Germans following the reunification. Western Europe's general treatment (economicaly) of Eastern Europe. General treatment of Jews, etc.

What is the problem with the treatment of Eastern Europe. Listen , they are allowed into the Eu and are given much money. No they aren't given that much like they wanted , or get unbelievable presemts or anything. They still get alot money from Eu. And they have cheap labour , often small taxes. This and the Eu money makes it for them possible to decrease theyr costs even more to attract investors. The biggest economical growth of Ireland was said to be caused by the low taxes also made possible by Eu money. Alot of industry is going to Eastern Europe , and here people already went jobless because of that.

I dont say they dont need miuch money , everybdyt knows they need much of it . But they are certainly not treated bad. It is not wise to for example to make some law , that every Eastern European gets paid as much as the current Eu average, or something stupid like that wouldn't function. It would be BAD for them. Nobody would invest there if it cost as much but the country is still in bad condition and with worse infrastructure than elsewhere. Read that topic about Poles going to work to other Eu countries, cheap labour is what the Eastern Europeans want to use . and the extra laws that limit work immigration are just for a couple of years , and often with too much holes to function at all. I dont see your point with Eastern Europe. Giving them the same benefits right away is not a good idea for anyone, especially in the long run. The Poles and others have likely another opinion on this , it is all about perspective.

[mrfloppy]

radon, I wouldn't bother with Durandal's post - he obviously doesn't know a lot about Europe.

[BlackRain]

Muslim Troops Highlight Nation's Diversity

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States. The
Council on American-Islamic Relations here estimates there are
now 6 million Muslims in America compared to 2 million in the
early 1970s. Nearly half are African-American converts. The rest
are immigrants from such countries as India, Pakistan, and Arab
and African nations.



This is simply not true as the source is unreliable.

The ARIS 2001 total in Table 1, which shows 1,104,000 Muslim adults, is smaller than the figures in current circulation. * Based on the 2000 US National Census

[cut]

Problem for Europe is that it wants to be progressive and multicultural...

Actually, Europe has NEVER been progressive and mutlicultural. Unless by saying progressive you mean soclialist and by multicutural you mean nationalistic, then I would agree.

he said wants to be, stop jumping at his throat.

[usa320]

Its definately an issue that needs dealing with, but i think to expel unhostile muslims would be wrong. instead the Italians should pledge to commit 1,000 more troops each time a hostage is killed.

And to kill 2,000 more terrorists each time they shoot at Italian troops.

:fork:

[esl]

Obviously you haven't got a clue who Heydrich was and what happened there and you just plucked a german name from the WWII and threw it in the open. I am totally behind mr. Calderoli on this!! go for it Silvio!! We don't want Islam in Europe. not now or ever.

My dad used to tell me that was exactly the sentiment in Europe in the 30s towards the Jews. Is this a case of history repeating itself? :cantbeli:

[fdt]

Listen, Europe is not some great melting pot. Sorry. The problem is that minorities in Europe get treated like sh*t, period. Probably more so than they do in America. French attitudes towards muslims (regardless of origin), German treatment of East Germans following the reunification. Western Europe's general treatment (economicaly) of Eastern Europe. General treatment of Jews, etc.

What is happening here is that YOU posted an article that confuses two seperate issues. One a foreign one and the other a domestic one. In theory the two are unrelated.

So which do you want to talk about? Europe's dealing with (or lack there of) with terrorism? Or Europe's inability to deal with immigration and the socialist laws that ecourage it?
My personal perspective is completely different... Europe is (or rather used to be) melting pot. The melting was sometimes violent (most of the time) sometimes peaceful... but it worked somehow. Nationalism of XX century was contrary to that, but it was to some extent overcomed and the tendency is to minimize it's impact. I live in Poland, my grandparents were austrian, ukrainian, polish and polish ;) . My austrian grandpa was in Polish anti german resistance during the WW2 ! My Polish grandpa was hiding two jewish families. One of my cousins lives in Denmark and she is Danish (she speaks polish like 5 yrs old baby) another lives in UK and she is British despite hers origin. My friend has a russian wife that speaks well polish and studies at Polish Univeristy... etc. etc. We are all melting down our nationalities into a decent humans... or as some call it Europeans.

The process was present for all Europe's history in larger of smaller scale... but it was... until the 60 ties of XX century when in Europe begun a process of ghettiong the newcomers from Africa, Asia and ME. They were not welcomed to integrate, so now they begun to resist integration. I've seen Kreuzberg in Berlin, I've seen Bradford in UK, I've seen Trappes in Paris... It doesn't look like we (Europeans) are doing a good job to integrate with them (not them)...

What I wanna talk? I wanna talk about the apparent failure to create an open and consistent society with those not white immigrants that creates tensions and sometimes erupts into a violence or marginalization of certain groups of people/citizens who don't feel welcomed, who feel outsiders. Soon this will be a problem of "new" Europe too, and all I want to talk is how to make it stop to be a problem.

It was a deliberate from me to put the problem "politically not correct" way, because in this specific issue "political correctness" too often means not to talk about it...

[fdt]

What is the problem with the treatment of Eastern Europe. Listen , they are allowed into the Eu and are given much money. No they aren't given that much like they wanted , or get unbelievable presemts or anything. They still get alot money from Eu. .
We didn't want a fairytale or a golden fish... we wanted the equal treatment. We werent greedy. We still get a lot what would be considered as an insult by "old europeans" if thay were offered this. We should be grateful and we are...


And they have cheap labour , often small taxes. This and the Eu money makes it for them possible to decrease theyr costs even more to attract investors. The biggest economical growth of Ireland was said to be caused by the low taxes also made possible by Eu money. Alot of industry is going to Eastern Europe , and here people already went jobless because of that. Yeah we all are the employers here so we "have cheap labor"...


I dont say they dont need miuch money , everybdyt knows they need much of it . But they are certainly not treated bad.
We are not treated bad, we are treated on unequal terms. When man and womad do the same job it's wrong to pay less to a man or woman because of ***. But where old european and new european are doing the same job it's ok to pay less because he/she has different passport.


It is not wise to for example to make some law , that every Eastern European gets paid as much as the current Eu average, or something stupid like that wouldn't function. It would be BAD for them. Nobody would invest there if it cost as much but the country is still in bad condition and with worse infrastructure than elsewhere.

Thank You for concern, but I think we know what's good and bad for us...


Read that topic about Poles going to work to other Eu countries, cheap labour is what the Eastern Europeans want to use . and the extra laws that limit work immigration are just for a couple of years , and often with too much holes to function at all. I dont see your point with Eastern Europe. Giving them the same benefits right away is not a good idea for anyone, especially in the long run. The Poles and others have likely another opinion on this , it is all about perspective. Geeez man what did U read about this flood of Polish workers going to invade rest of Europe? Was it The Sun, Bild or smth similar? Wait and watch... in few months You'll learn about facts and figures not the rag press hysteria predictions. About of not giving us the same benefits (what is supposed to be a good thing for us) pls write me: what benefits in particular You mean? I assume that You know what are You writing about... what means that wages are not a subject of any EU programme benefits... it's a matter of the demand and supply (with exception to minimal wage regulations... that are subject to individual country internal regulations regardless to EU). What are the benefits for us that our farmers will get a quarter of the dotation of Finnish or Greek farmer... for the same thing? Huh?

[cold0]

Expelling 1000 random muslims , how does Berlusconi want to justify that? This is slightly similiar like penalties for the family od the wrongdoer. well I dont believe Berlusconi/Italy will do that anyway.

In Finland the treatment of immigrants is often better than the natives , by officials that is . Minorities are certainly not treted like **** in Finland.
the newcomers have to adapt MORE than the native population.

The immigrants have to respect the rules of the country not the other way around. Immigration from backward third world countries creates only many problems.

For the last time, THE ITALIAN GOVERNMENT NEVER PROPOSED TO EXPEL 1000 RANDOM MUSLIMS!!!!! Our opposition would crucifixed Berlusconi for a similar plan; Calderoli is not a government member, he is simply a deputy of Italian Camera of the Lega Party!!
The simple fact that, in Italy, no one care of Calderoli words could been sufficient to understand that you can't take serious these words.

[fdt]

Expelling 1000 random muslims , how does Berlusconi want to justify that? This is slightly similiar like penalties for the family od the wrongdoer. well I dont believe Berlusconi/Italy will do that anyway.

In Finland the treatment of immigrants is often better than the natives , by officials that is . Minorities are certainly not treted like **** in Finland.
the newcomers have to adapt MORE than the native population.

The immigrants have to respect the rules of the country not the other way around. Immigration from backward third world countries creates only many problems.

For the last time, THE ITALIAN GOVERNMENT NEVER PROPOSED TO EXPEL 1000 RANDOM MUSLIMS!!!!! Our opposition would crucifixed Berlusconi for a similar plan; Calderoli is not a government member, he is simply a deputy of Italian Camera of the Lega Party!!
The simple fact that, in Italy, no one care of Calderoli words could been sufficient to understand that you can't take serious these words. Calm down Cold0... some people simply don't understand what they read...

[cold0]

Calm down Cold0... some people simply don't understand what they read...

No, I don't calm down; it's days that the other europeans just try to portrait us as a bunch of racists and to show us that they are "better", more tolerant, friendly with the immigrants and that the Italians are programming a new holocaust.

In the end we all know that the Italian government can't give up and the Green Brigates will kill the hostages.

So, answer me my european friends, who are the assassins?!

[cut]

the article came from australia, why are you having a go at europeans?

[Truthsayer]

http://www.yesha.org.il/plo1.jpg


Incase some people are stupid enough to not understand it:

THIS WAS A STAGED PHOTO.

Taken by people with an agenda. They give the people the 'bread' (that can acctually be seen in this photo) and told them to chair and celebrate.

They even interview the woman a few days later (when they finally got words of the attack and images from papers about it!) and she regret that she had cheered infront of the photographer like that - since it was took completely out of context.

Here 'joddling' and dancing was shown some 20 times the following day here in Scandinavia for instance as 'evidence' that ceölebrating was going on.

Sure, some asshats celebrated BUT NOT THE MAJORITY!


But alas, being ingorant and filled with hate is so much more fun, eh?

[cold0]

the article came from australia, why are you having a go at europeans?

I'm pointig against the radon's opinions and similar views in this forum; tha article is quite clear and quotes exactly from whom com the speach to expel the muslims.

[cut]

the article came from australia, why are you having a go at europeans?

I'm pointig against the radon's opinions and similar views in this forum; tha article is quite clear and quotes exactly from whom com the speach to expel the muslims.

wether berlusconi said it or not he has a history of outburst, usually which he doesn't mean but that he says anyway.

[Durandal]

radon, I wouldn't bother with Durandal's post - he obviously doesn't know a lot about Europe.

A counter argument of the ignorant. I do not recall the last time I stepped in are arguments about my homeland and said "You obviously know littlle about the United States."

Keep the comments constructive instead of child-like commentary please.

[Durandal]

he said wants to be, stop jumping at his throat.

cut, I am not jumping down his throat. I simply disagree. He claims Europe wants this. I disagree. Not because a minority of ALL of Europe does in fact want it, but because most of Europe in fact does not and HISTORICALLY (which was the point I was making) never has.

[cut]

he said wants to be, stop jumping at his throat.

cut, I am not jumping down his throat. I simply disagree. He claims Europe wants this. I disagree. Not because a minority of ALL of Europe does in fact want it, but because most of Europe in fact does not and HISTORICALLY (which was the point I was making) never has.

okay, but all I'm pointing out is that for example historically Germany was a country that would have happily given the US a hand in Iraq, until you guys castrated them. In the same way those who use treatment of jews in WW2 by germany or occupied countries as the basis of their arguments of how minorities are treated here are also inaccurate.