Uparmored HMMVV vs M113 vs Stryker

[nerdman]

I'm sure many of you hear have heard about this. A top U.S. Army general's recently disclosed memo recommends the Army build and ship more Stryker's to Iraq instead of the uparmored Humvees. Those who don't know what I'm talking about read the following:


Lack Of Armor Claims Troops
United Press International
April 27, 2004


WASHINGTON - Twenty percent of the U.S. troops killed in Iraq might have lived had there been more armored, heavier vehicles available to them, Newsweek reports Monday.

A top Army general is recommending the Army send more Stryker medium-weight fighting vehicles to Iraq, which are lighter than tanks but heavier than Humvees, according to the magazine.

Newsweek reports that an unofficial study by a defense consultant now circulating through the Army says 142 Americans were killed by land mines or improvised roadside bombs and 48 others by rocket-propelled grenades.

"Almost all those soldiers were killed while in unprotected vehicles, which means that perhaps one in four of those killed in combat in Iraq might be alive if they had had stronger armor around them," according to Newsweek's account.

The Army is racing to send "up-armored" Humvees to Iraq, but remains almost 1,800 vehicles short for its needs.



Anyways... Ret. Brig. General David Grange has been on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" talking about an alternative to sending uparmored Humvees or the Strykers to Iraq. The general suggests the U.S. military take its old M113 APCs out of storage, refit them, and send them over to Iraq, either as a stop gap or solution to the IED problem. I believe he said it would cost about $100,000 an APC for the refitting.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on this proposal? It makes sense to me. Every time I see pictures of peacekeepers from other countries they always seem to be riding around in some kind of APC.

[Durandal]

Not this old argument again.

A) Humvees are all terrain "cars" that is about it. I would hate to use one as a sort of replacement for "armor"...

B) M113s are boxes. History has shown how well the preform in an urban environment, stand up to RPGs, and handle mine hits...you could not pay me to ride in one, unless it is in a park in the United States.

C) Strikers are fine, but they do not have enough and its going to take 8 months to procure even a reasonable amount. Not too sure why the DoD f*cked this...as if uparmored Humvees were somehow going to replace armor...though we learned about that in Somalia.

The best solution would be to order some other nation's 6x6 or 8x8 wheeled vehicles tha have mone protection and can be fitted witht he anti-rpg skirts...


But noooooo.....that would mean the DoD f*cked up again...

Edit: sorry nerd. I wasn't slamming you and after rereading my post it came across like that.

Here is the solution.

Get an Armored Division BACK over there with their ARMOR rather than trucks and cars. Drum up another four to six Stryker Brigades. THIS is the role they are perfect for, rahter than using a bunch of half-assed M113 that have gone through some sort of Jerry Springer makeover...

"New and Improved!" They were not safe, nor designed for a urban specific role, but we did it by siply adding 100K worth of "improvements".

Yeah right...

[nerdman]

Another Armored Division would be a very good idea, but who could the Army send? They Army is obviously stretched a little thin, being that it already extend the tour of the 1st Armored Division as well as the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment.

I'm not being snotty. I seriously would like to know. Which units are ready or will be ready to go Iraq soon?

Also, I'm curious to know the amount of training it takes to drive/operate one a Stryker or any APC (M113 or foreign made) for that matter? There most be some learning curve involved.

P.S. I am also aware that many of the recently deployed units did not enter country with their full contingent of armor.

[seruriermarshal]

Not this old argument again.

A) Humvees are all terrain "cars" that is about it. I would hate to use one as a sort of replacement for "armor"...

B) M113s are boxes. History has shown how well the preform in an urban environment, stand up to RPGs, and handle mine hits...you could not pay me to ride in one, unless it is in a park in the United States.

C) Strikers are fine, but they do not have enough and its going to take 8 months to procure even a reasonable amount. Not too sure why the DoD f*cked this...as if uparmored Humvees were somehow going to replace armor...though we learned about that in Somalia.

The best solution would be to order some other nation's 6x6 or 8x8 wheeled vehicles tha have mone protection and can be fitted witht he anti-rpg skirts...


But noooooo.....that would mean the DoD f*cked up again...

Edit: sorry nerd. I wasn't slamming you and after rereading my post it came across like that.

Here is the solution.

Get an Armored Division BACK over there with their ARMOR rather than trucks and cars. Drum up another four to six Stryker Brigades. THIS is the role they are perfect for, rahter than using a bunch of half-assed M113 that have gone through some sort of Jerry Springer makeover...

"New and Improved!" They were not safe, nor designed for a urban specific role, but we did it by siply adding 100K worth of "improvements".

Yeah right...

Humvees are all terrain "cars" , But in Iraq they used in Road . Perhaps they must left road .

[Hellman109]

Having an armoured division patrolling civilian areas doesnt go down well for peace keeping.

They should though have armoured Humvees or similar, although having less roadside bombs and RPG's would be best (but obviously not that easy).

Also, the job required of the American forces has changed allot to the pre-war planning, they didnt forsee such a large resistence, so they did not plan for it, hence the current problem.

[usa320]

If you ask me the 3rd ID should be sent back...theyve been home a few months at least now, plenty of time to calm down and relax. They are lucky. Army SF, The 82nd Airborne, the 33rd TFW, 160SOAR, The 10th Mountain, and others have been deployed since just after 9/11... Task Force Tarawa has been back and forth to Iraq now twice.

[gilgoul]

I'm sure many of you hear have heard about this. A top U.S. Army general's recently disclosed memo recommends the Army build and ship more Stryker's to Iraq instead of the uparmored Humvees. Those who don't know what I'm talking about read the following:


Lack Of Armor Claims Troops
United Press International
April 27, 2004


WASHINGTON - Twenty percent of the U.S. troops killed in Iraq might have lived had there been more armored, heavier vehicles available to them, Newsweek reports Monday.

A top Army general is recommending the Army send more Stryker medium-weight fighting vehicles to Iraq, which are lighter than tanks but heavier than Humvees, according to the magazine.

Newsweek reports that an unofficial study by a defense consultant now circulating through the Army says 142 Americans were killed by land mines or improvised roadside bombs and 48 others by rocket-propelled grenades.

"Almost all those soldiers were killed while in unprotected vehicles, which means that perhaps one in four of those killed in combat in Iraq might be alive if they had had stronger armor around them," according to Newsweek's account.

The Army is racing to send "up-armored" Humvees to Iraq, but remains almost 1,800 vehicles short for its needs.



Anyways... Ret. Brig. General David Grange has been on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" talking about an alternative to sending uparmored Humvees or the Strykers to Iraq. The general suggests the U.S. military take its old M113 APCs out of storage, refit them, and send them over to Iraq, either as a stop gap or solution to the IED problem. I believe he said it would cost about $100,000 an APC for the refitting.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on this proposal? It makes sense to me. Every time I see pictures of peacekeepers from other countries they always seem to be riding around in some kind of APC.
GEt everyone moving in achzarit, otherwise, maybe in merkavas, you don`t have any other option

[esl]

If the people who planed for this war didn't think that they would have to deal with an insurgency afterwards then they are either very ignorant or politically blind....either way its a crime.

Many people I spoke to in 2002-2003 predicted what has happened.

[GLax]

If you ask me the 3rd ID should be sent back...theyve been home a few months at least now, plenty of time to calm down and relax. They are lucky. Army SF, The 82nd Airborne, the 33rd TFW, 160SOAR, The 10th Mountain, and others have been deployed since just after 9/11... Task Force Tarawa has been back and forth to Iraq now twice.

we are going back, november to january. 3rd ID is re-manning and reorganizing rite now. i'm part of that remanning process, you prolly read that i just got outta basic and i'm headed to Ft. Stewart... 10th, 82nd etc. dont deply the same as Mech units do, they deploy in brigade rotations where as Mech units deploy entire divisions

[nerdman]

GEt everyone moving in achzarit, otherwise, maybe in merkavas, you don`t have any other option

I would be great if the U.S. could use more Israeli armored vehicles, Israel has been writing the book on urban combat for a while. This will never happen though; the political fallout from such a move would be HUGE. Although, I would bet money that tactical and logistical information is being shared between the two governments.

I say "more" because I've heard the U.S. Military is using armored Israeli Bulldozers (D9 & D10 maybe) in Iraq and has redirected shipments of specially armored Humvees to Iraq instead of Israel. Anyone have any picks of these vehicles in Iraq?

P.S. Don’t start a political flame war about the morality of Israeli tactics.

[nerdman]

gilgoul I have a question for you.

This maybe a dumb question but why doesn't the IDF use wheeled APCs (e.g. Stryker)? Are there future plans to do so?

[HELEX]

Rebuild old M-60 Tanks or something to APCs like the Isaelis did, thats the way to go. All other armor is to weak for the task.

[nerdman]

Speaking of rebuilds... this Israeli APC has to be the one of the ugliest peices of military equipment I've ever seen:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/nagmachon/nagmachon4.jpg

What do the Israelis think of it?

[AVZ]

that's what I think. put 6 guys in an modified tank with four M240's and keep than as backup. you can't get a lot of these down to Iraq. But they are high on armor and would do their job as a konvoy attachment.

[UoUo]

Speaking of rebuilds... this Israeli APC has to be the one of the ugliest peices of military equipment I've ever seen:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/nagmachon/nagmachon4.jpg

What do the Israelis think of it?

That it is 1 of the ugliest peices of military equipment we ever saw. :D

But in the same time 1 of the best peices of military equipment in uraban warfare. :D

[obd]

Well, I remmember numerous reports of how useless M113's were in Vietnam for protecting against the then rather new RPG-7 and even the older models......but I hear tell Israel has succesfully rekitted some of thiers for urban warfare... Dont know how well they would do if an artillery shell exploded 3 feet away.....kinda seems like all that surface area for the blast wave to hit would roll it but perhaps someone can tell me.???

By the way, I recomend a very good book by pulitzer winning auther called "Thunder Run" about the charge into Baghdad... Man, some of the Bradleys held up under 10 RPG hits or more..... I read alot about the first Russian charge into Grozny with T-72's and I keep thinking: Man there really is no comparison between the M1 and the T-72.... Even the frontal armor of the T-72 could be penetrated by a good shot from an RPG......this has been proven despite what Russian tech. manuals say, in both A-stan and Chechnya.......were numerous T-72's were destroyed......

I also find it interesting that not a single Abrams crew was killed while in the "hatch down position" during the war..... Some were killed by MG and sniper fire while maning the 240's outside thier tank but all who were down in the tank survuved even after over 20 RPG hits.... SIMPLY AMAZING......... Some Bradely crew and some Marine "tracks" were taken down but the Bradley impressed me and I think it impressed the soldiers in them by how much punishment it took............

[Javehn]

What i heard was :

Instead of shipping more Bradleys and Abrams to Iraq scene (And that's really what's neaded there , in order to keep soldiers allive) , there were shipments of Strikers and HHMMWW'es , because it's suited Ramsfeld projects of light deployment Army .

The problem is that it's killing soldiers .
US Army didlearn Israel tactics , and US army and Marine officers visited inside Israel to learn the tactics , to implement it . But there were done several mistakes :

1)They used tactic in wrong way in Iraq (like bombing mosks is a big no no in IDF doctorine , even when the fire got shot from there . Wrong implementation of Patrol method , and "road opening" tactics . Every time soldiers walk in non-shelant way on city streets , like they are boolet proof . Wrong vehicles position , bad tactical sollutions ,and so on ... ) .
2) They used the tactic not in the right time (the tactic is good when the forces are in full engagement. In the early stages of presence in Falluja , British model would be much more fitted ) , and without consideration .
3)Not full commitment to the tactic, due to Political feedback (thought in my opinion , US army took the "bad" part of Israeli tactic - something that would look bad in media , like surrounding the cities with barb wire , house demolition and so on . When the tactical part is neglected , due to political reasons ) .



Speaking of rebuilds... this Israeli APC has to be the one of the ugliest peices of military equipment I've ever seen:

What do the Israelis think of it?

We don't think about it . It's battle prooven .

[wreck]

Here's something the US might want to buy from ruskies. BTR-T, straight out of lessons learned in grozny.

http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/btr-t1.jpg

http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/btr-t.html

Maybe some M60s could be converted to something like that. Interesting to see what will come out of this conflict on terms of military equipment. MadMax-type trucks we have already seen.

[nerdman]

The more I think about it... Bradleys or tracked APCs for that matter would solve many of the IED problems but not all.

You can use Bradleys for patrols or traveling short distances within the cities, but when long distances must be traveled problems arise. The U.S. military has many bases spread around Iraq which are supplied by truck convoys. These convoys cannot be guarded by heavy and slow Bradleys or tracked APCs. They need vehicles with just the right amount speed, armor, and firepower. A convoy guarded by Bradleys would be relatively slow. It would be like manna from heaven for insurgents with RPGs.

This is where the wheeled APCs come in. For instance the Stryker reportedly has a road speed of 62mph (110 km/h). Not super fast but defiantly faster than most tracked vehicles.

I guess I should add I'm not jerking off the Stryker. Other wheeled APCs would be fine in my book, but I doubt the U.S. would buy them. There has been too much money sunk into the Stryker Project.

When will people learn? Sunk costs are SUNK and should not be factored into opportunity cost.

[Javehn]

Several pictures from Annual Armor conferenc from Ft. Knox , Centucky .
One of the themes was Urban combat . It seams that someone is ripping ideas , and very late i might add ...

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/M150CAL2.jpg

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/M150CAL.jpg

50 cal over M1 main gun . Reminds me something ...

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/saltsariah2.jpg

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/saltsariah.jpg
Rear turret basket . Wonder where from that idea ...

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/urban_abrams.jpg
Urbanised Abrams concept

Keep in mind , that all those are just concepts , and by no way they are operational .


Nerdman :

You can use Bradleys for patrols or traveling short distances within the cities, but when long distances must be traveled problems arise. The U.S. military has many bases spread around Iraq which are supplied by truck convoys. These convoys cannot be guarded by heavy and slow Bradleys or tracked APCs. They need vehicles with just the right amount speed, armor, and firepower. A convoy guarded by Bradleys would be relatively slow. It would be like manna from heaven for insurgents with RPGs.

How did you get to that conlussion , can you explain please ? "You can use Bradleys for patrols or traveling short distances within the cities, but when long distances must be traveled problems arise" ? Tracked vehicles have the bennefit of bigger armor . And on Guerilla conflicts , travelling spead of vehicles doesn't matter . On high speed you loose or abbility to observate , and to C&C . You want something that goes fast ? You have Airforce for that . If you mean that the abillity to go fast behind the cover , or fleed the scene of shooting , then you missing the point of right usage of the vehicle . Every vehicle has it's own purpose , and the pluses of Bradley is the armor , optics and presice fire power . When you will drive at 100 km/h , you will loose those main abilities , that are so neadedin Urban warfare .

[nerdman]

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/saltsariah.jpg
Rear turret basket. Wonder where from that idea ...

I'm a novice here. So what exactly are the advantages of the rear turret basket, besides extra storage?

[Javehn]

I'm a novice here. So what exactly are the advantages of the rear turret basket, besides extra storage?

That is the use . "Besides" ???
You can store ammo , personal artifacts , mechanical exchange parts , things that take place inside the turret and you don't want them there , Extra communication parts , extra food , extra watter ,maintanance parts and so on , within a quick reach from the turret (the less time outside the turret , the healthier that would be to the tanker life ) ... And besides , when a nice RPG would fly to the rear of the turret , it would meet the storage basket with it's contents on the way , and that's kinda better then the alternative - RPG directly would meet the rear turret ...

[nerdman]

...when a nice RPG would fly to the rear of the turret , it would meet the storage basket with it's contents on the way , and that's kinda better then the alternative - RPG directly would meet the rear turret ...

This is the "besides" I am speaking of.

[gilgoul]

gilgoul I have a question for you.

This maybe a dumb question but why doesn't the IDF use wheeled APCs (e.g. Stryker)? Are there future plans to do so?
I heard there would be, and i`m not sure it is what we really need.
The styker looks like it could be a fine piece of equipement, for a MEU or a fast deployement unit.
But if you want to go in hostile cities, the concept loses it`s interrest, light weight and protection don`t go together simply.
I m not apologetic of the m113 either, wich is way too vulnerable unless covered with a few tons of active and passive armour (the blazer kit is at least four metric tons!)
An other thing, with tracks, you go over most of the obstacles, while you can`t do it on wheels, at least not inurban warfare.

[Delta Niner]

Speaking of rebuilds... this Israeli APC has to be the one of the ugliest peices of military equipment I've ever seen:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/nagmachon/nagmachon4.jpg

What do the Israelis think of it?

If it works for the IDF and probably will do a good job for the US Army, then it is not ugly :)

[Javehn]

The styker looks like it could be a fine piece of equipement, for a MEU or a fast deployement unit.


(MEU-Marine Expeditionary Unit ) .
I would rather be more specific here . Stryker would be fine vehicle for back up quick responce force in every task . What is that ? In every mission , you have the main force that goes in , and you have back up team , that suppose to enter inside , when the **** hits the fan , assist with fire power , evacuate woundends , and so on .

For this type of mission , fast vehicle would be the perfact one . Spead is essential to arrive as quick as possible to the scene , or to evacuate . But i would not hold my breath for the vehicle to be effective in the fighting scene . It doesn't have big optical abbilities , or abilities to be an active fighting vehicle . What's lacking now in Iraq , is IFV: Infantry Support Vehicles . Close support , is the name of the game .


An other thing, with tracks, you go over most of the obstacles, while you can`t do it on wheels, at least not inurban warfare.

Not neccesary . Tracks can give better weight distribution - bigger armor . But actually i personnally would say that wheeled APC have no problem to operate in Urban enviroment , and sometimes it's even preffered .

[gilgoul]

Speaking of rebuilds... this Israeli APC has to be the one of the ugliest peices of military equipment I've ever seen:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/nagmachon/nagmachon4.jpg

What do the Israelis think of it?

If it works for the IDF and probably will do a good job for the US Army, then it is not ugly :)

it`s just like an ornytorinc, so CUTE!

[AVZ]

Jahven wrote:


...when a nice RPG would fly to the rear of the turret , it would meet the storage basket with it's contents on the way , and that's kinda better then the alternative - RPG directly would meet the rear turret ...

It was reported that those supplies were often shot and began burning. Often water canisters etc. Those plastic was a good fire supplier and dropped down into the engine rooom....

So you still think it#s agood idea?? Or you just have to put non burning materials into that basket.

[Javehn]

Trust me , i know this baskets very well .
And yes , the last one . "Or you just have to put non burning materials into that basket."

And when an PRG hits the tank , the supplies in the rear basket becoming a bit less rellevant , then other things , like the survivor of tank and crue .

And also , there is special anti fire bresent that suppose to cover basket .

[mi35d]

Thanks for the chuckle - the IDF doesn't attack Mosques, that's a no-no.

Sure, after you recieve a round or two (or maybe a rock) you level the entire village, imprison all males over the age of 14 and stick anyone left in a refugee camp. The next day you roll in with construction vehicles and start building a new Israeli settlement.

There's a method to this madness, but please don't come off as some protector of the Islamic faith.

---------------

As for the basket in the back of the turret, a few ammo cans and some ruck sacks will have very little defensive ability when encountering an RPG. Typical tactics are to fire mutliple rounds anyway. So after the first hit blows away all the cargo, the subsequent rounds will do what they were intended to do. (Yet, with the M-1's armor, for the most part it makes a loud noise and annoys the crew.)

[Javehn]

Thanks for the chuckle - the IDF doesn't attack Mosques, that's a no-no.

Sure, after you recieve a round or two (or maybe a rock) you level the entire village, imprison all males over the age of 14 and stick anyone left in a refugee camp. The next day you roll in with construction vehicles and start building a new Israeli settlement.

There's a method to this madness, but please don't come off as some protector of the Islamic faith.


Listen pal . I don't know who you are or what your bussiness . But i ment what i wrote . And there is a lot of **** i think , but i don't write it . Because it will make people ungry (and let's say i don't want to make them angry ) .

And i stand behind every word . You have a ****ing problem with that ? I ain't protector of any faith , but i would like to know how would you feel after a nice shell inside your chearch .

Where from are you anyway , and how does this concern you ? You been in Iraq , good for you . Save your ****ing opinion on that matter to yourself .Please don't make me say what i really think .


There's a method to this madness

And please explain me , what did you ment here .

[gilgoul]

mi35d"]Thanks for the chuckle - the IDF doesn't attack Mosques, that's a no-no.

Sure, after you recieve a round or two (or maybe a rock) you level the entire village, imprison all males over the age of 14 and stick anyone left in a refugee camp. The next day you roll in with construction vehicles and start building a new Israeli settlement.

There's a method to this madness, but please don't come off as some protector of the Islamic faith.


You gave me the chucles,
So that is the way we are seen, that is the result of 30 years (at least) of anti israeli propaganda?
Without starting any flame war that has no interrest to me, I d just like to clarify a few points.
There are more than a few muslim fighters in Tsahal, beduins that are trackers, druzes (who are not exactly muslims) circassiians (who are muslims.
And you think that those guya would accept to fight in an army that destroys there holy places?
It s giving a really poor consideration to these people.
Second point, when you say :
"after you recieve a round or two (or maybe a rock) you level the entire village"
have you ever been here and tried to see whats going on, or you get your information only from indymedia and al jazeera?
I can confirm Jahven, shooting at a MOsque is TABOO, shooting deliberately at a crowd is TABOO.
I can tell you more, I manned a check point for a few weeks lately, and we are even polite to those people, tell them good morning and please.

imprison all males over the age of 14 and stick anyone left in a refugee camp
This one made me laugh big time
Franqly, do you really believe what you re writing or are you just trying to tickle me?
Call me massacrer if you want, but not incompetent.
Think for half a second, don`t be afraid, it doesn`t hurt too much to use your neurones.
They were about 20 000 terrorists attacks and related incidents (like isolated shooting, or molotov on vehicle etc..) in those last three years.
Those attck came from all the arabs towns and villages in the west bank and Gaza, and a few in Israel itself.
follow well, the population is estimated at 2163667 for the Wb and 1225911 for Gaza, (est 2000).
according to your logic, we can reasonably estimate at 1 million the number of men over 14, who should be in jail, and 2 milion who should be refugees in refugee camps, where, le s say jordan (poor guys) and the Sinai (no way egypt let in a millioon people from gaza).
But,, funnyno, all those people are at home, maybe enumployed, maybe not free to go to the movie theater whenever they want, but not "displaced", their house not bulldozed and their lives only messy as can be the messy life of someone living in a war zone.
---------------

As for the basket in the back of the turret, a few ammo cans and some ruck sacks will have very little defensive ability when encountering an RPG. Typical tactics are to fire mutliple rounds anyway. So after the first hit blows away all the cargo, the subsequent rounds will do what they were intended to do. (Yet, with the M-1's armor, for the most part it makes a loud noise and annoys the crew


When you don`t know, you d rather shut up, no offense intended
Of course a blanket won`t "armour" you against an RPG, but the very structure of the basket, plus all the lots that are in the basket, out of saving some precious room in the tank have an other advantage, the one to detonate prematurely the RPG round.
It might not work every time, but it s definitely an advantage over nothing.

[mattmayhem]

Can someone tell me the purpose of positioning the .50 over the main gun? Ive always wondered that looking at Israeli tanks... The tank already has a co-ax.

[IDFM203]

Nerdamn,

First on morality of our tactics, well it can be argued that what the U.S. has used in Iraq has been much heavier then what Israel has done, but I guess those that harp on Israel also harp on the U.S. so I guess it makes no difference.

As for tactics sharing between both nations, yeah Javehn already answered it for indeed there was a lot of training done by your military in Israel to learn some of our MOUT and other military warfare techniques etc….

As for our armored vehicles, well they all our very good in its Israeli upgraded versions though I wouldn’t mind getting the stryker or even the Bradley.

In fact for the stryker in the IDF, well actually there was a thread about it a while ago based on a Jerusalem post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1075730354468&p=1006688055060) article that indeed the IDF was planning to purchase the striker and well this can also benefit the U.S. when after its in the hands of the IDF where after no time, you’ll see it have some quality improvements and add-ons that can be used on all of the Strykers that the Americans use as well ;) :D

Actually there is also an Israeli prototype that is built by the same factory that makes the Merkava 4 that some say even rivals the stryker, though I am sure due to cost it will probably never get past its prototype stage.


Anyways me personally I like some of the armored vehicles with the upgrades that we already have, though indeed I wouldn’t mind the Bradley as well especially since anyways there is already in them some Israeli made Armour and some Israeli electronics systems in them ;) :D

Shalom :D

[big80a2]

Can someone tell me the purpose of positioning the .50 over the main gun? Ive always wondered that looking at Israeli tanks... The tank already has a co-ax.

I think it's because in close quarters your co-ax isn't co-ax enough...
so by putting it straight above the main gun it is co-ax at all ranges.

just my thought through

[big80a2]

Speaking of rebuilds... this Israeli APC has to be the one of the ugliest peices of military equipment I've ever seen:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/nagmachon/nagmachon4.jpg

What do the Israelis think of it?

That it is 1 of the ugliest peices of military equipment we ever saw. :D

But in the same time 1 of the best peices of military equipment in uraban warfare. :D

Well they are one of a good subject for modelers around the world...
If I have a couple of spare cents I'll buy a model kit of this!!!

[mi35d]

Let's see, my business? It's been military for 21+ years now.

IDF Policy: Method to the madness means that the Israeli government does what it feels is needed to protect itself at all costs - which is as it should be. But, with that said, to quote policy is one thing, to know reality is something else. Anyone who has spent any time in the military understands this. And to forget what occurred in the past is foolish.

Hmmm...so if I have experience and I have been in real world situations I should "shut up" and let armchair generals tell me their vision of the truth?

The basket IS useful for storing gear. (Works better than strapping your gear to the side.) This is true. For it to act as a "pre-detonator" is questionable. The fuse on an RPG needs to make harder contact than a ruck or a water can.

As for the artillery sized flames for a minor comment, grow up. And if the best you can do is throw the "F" word my way, fine. I've heard worse. All it does is lessen any argument you might have had.

[Javehn]

I am sorry that you have been called the way you called , i noticed your another posts , and again i am sorry for the fact that you named like that. I am appologise , and you didn't deserved to called like that . Recieve my respect to you .

With that said , you are not the only one here with a military experience . And not everybody here are armchair generals .

If you like , i can PM to you my record . It's pretty short next to yours , but i bellieve in continuing it .

Ah , and by the way , marines are nice guys . Elemenths with 24 MEU i think (or 15) were training with us .I can't add more on the subject , thought i do have to add . And it's related to what we talking here . On the subject , what you say starting to slide into international politics and affairs , and let's say USA can allow itself more , then Israel on international area .


And about the basket storage , it's not the main job of it to stop RPG's , not by a longshot . It's main job is to shorten the trip outside the turret . But in case of RPG , it is better then nothing , and it can detonate (no one said stop, but pre detonate it . And it does , that i can asshure you ) .

[IDFM203]

Let's see, my business? It's been military for 21+ years now.

IDF Policy: Method to the madness means that the Israeli government does what it feels is needed to protect itself at all costs - which is as it should be. . I would respectfully have to disagree with you here......if it did we would have done for example operation defensive shield in 2000 and not in 2002.

I can go on and on but it would be very naive for you not to understand that Israeli government is very mindful to world politics (unfortunately to our defensive determent) and as such does not do what it needs to when it does.

UNLIKE the U.S. that indeed does whatever it wants whenever it wants and IMO with LESS of a threat to its vital security to its homeland as what Israel faces on a daily basis!!

Shalom :D

[nerdman]

First on morality of our tactics, well it can be argued that what the U.S. has used in Iraq has been much heavier then what Israel has done, but I guess those that harp on Israel also harp on the U.S. so I guess it makes no difference.

I have NO opinions on the “morality” of Israeli tactics. As I said before… I don’t want this to turning into a political flame war concerning them.

[gilgoul]

Can someone tell me the purpose of positioning the .50 over the main gun? Ive always wondered that looking at Israeli tanks... The tank already has a co-ax.
I`m not a tankist, so you should ask more specifically to Jahven, but i thinnk that since it hasw the same balistics, mre or less, than the big gun, you can use the targetting of the big and shoot only with the 0.5.

[GLax]

i saw a small program on CNN about all this mess. something that they never really hit on was the fact that the Stryker is NOT meant to engage in combat, its not an IFVs. the actual weapon and offensive capabilities are the Infantryman inside. all theyre really meant to do is get men to the battle real quick and then hang back and offer as much support as they can with .50s, TOWs or 105mm.

[Javehn]

Yes , at the beggining it was training tool . But lately it was discovered to be effective weapon , as a between generation of tank 7.62 MG , and 120 mm gun . It had much stronger punch then 7.62 , but less destructive then 120mm . It was also discovered , that the 12.7 bullet is very effective on IED detonation , andthe Brauning can work as IED detonator . Also , on event when you have to create any sort of supressive fire , with maximum fire power , or to split fire power to several directions at the same time , the high number of Machine guns helps .

[shrek]

Ok, here's what I don't get. They need STRYKER's. There's 4 sitting withing sight of my office windown that haven'tbeen touched since they got here. Do we need 4 to test with. I think not. Any serious testing should have been done before production began. Therefore these are probably just here for show instead of protecting some poor scmuck joe in the box.

Just a thought, I'll get off my box now!

[mi35d]

Jahven, no offense taken. I'm sure you serve your country with pride.

----

203: And it would be naive of you to believe that the IDF and the Israeli government has never done anything that would be considered wrong in the eyes of the world. Please check your history. Once again, as with other posters, don't take my comments as anti-Israel. I have a great respect for the IDF yet I am also mindful that with very few exceptions, every military in the world has committed wrongful acts or has acted incorrectly at some point.

----

Back to the topic at hand...

More Strykers are needed! As previously stated, I was a Section Leader for 4 years with TOW Humvees. The base models are fine for wooded or field areas where the added weight of an up armored model would hinder movement, etc. But even with the added armor, I wouldn't feel secure about rolling down a limited access urban area - too many ways to disable a Humvee at close range. The vehicle's strength is speed and the ability to mount long range firepower - .50 cal, MK19, TOW, etc.

[IDFM203]

203: And it would be naive of you to believe that the IDF and the Israeli government has never done anything that would be considered wrong in the eyes of the world. I don’t think there is an Israeli here that said other wise or said that we are perfect for we are not and we have made mistakes in the past (as every nation is ****e to do that as well) though IMO for the most part in the past fifty years overall we have acted right (and in fact IMO very restrained as compared to what some other nations would do if they were exactly in our positions and situation) in our defense against enemies that have wanted to completely destroy us (and still do!!).

The same thing you said about my nation, I would say it to yours as well and indeed I am not anti American and in fact I have made it clear like most Israelis I love the U.S. and have great repect for it, though at times it’s a bit irritating to see some of the hypocrisy emanating from SOME in your nation especially since IMO you have acted as or even harsher recently then how we have for our defense which again IMO you have done so with even less of a vital national security threat to your very homeland as what Israel faces on a daily basis.


ok now onto what the thread is supposed to be about............

Everyone talks about the stryker and indeed IMO it looks like a good system (as I said before) though what are your views on the Bradley’s performance thus far? Do you have personal experience on it? If so I would actually be very interested to hear your views on it and whether in your opinion the IDF should adapt it as well.

Shalom :D

[mattmayhem]

So the logic behind the extra .50 over the main gun is to overcome problems with the co-ax at short range as well as an extra machine-gun that is stronger then the 7.62mm and less destructive than the main gun? Its just stange because tanks already have a .50 and 1-2 7.62ms, but I geuss at close range when you can't use the main gun 'cause of civilians every extra gun helps.

[Javehn]

Ok , guys , let us not go that direction . We are proffessionals here (at list most of those in the thread ) , we are on the same boat .

Mi35d , i know what we did , and what i felt about it , but it's all another story . I rather not disscuss it here , because many people would really misunderstood it .

You said that Strykers needed . Did you operate with it ? The platform is good for mount weapons on it , but what observation abbilities it has ? Who would spot the one first , shoot first . Who spots enemy from safe place , and not outside the turret , remains allive .

What special armor abilities it has ? If the vehicle required to remain in static position , he suppose to have good armor abilities .

The only vehicle virtue is the speed , and that makes him good vehicle for recovery , or just as personal carrier , and not Infantry support vehicle . It is good vehicle , but not on close patrol missions .

Would you say that is wrong point ? Regards .

[esl]

For a twenty ton vehicle it seems like its pretty good protection...from what I read not one RPG-7 have destroyed Stryker or killed crew member.

The slates seem to detonate the warheads far enough away to cut the penetration in half. So the underlying Spectra/ceramic/steel armor must be alright?


However I gather that by far the bulk of all these RPG warheads are really old designs from the 1960s/70s. THere was a bit of info quoted from a study in Nam. It showed that when RPGs where fired at M-113 , most missed while of those that did hit , 3/4 of the warheads failed to fuse while 3/4 of what did detonate & penetrate failed to hit anything inside the APC?

[Durandal]

It isn't just a matter vehicles though either. As I am sure everyone knows by now the difference between an Interim Brigade a normal Infantry or armor group.

We need to get MORE Interim Brigades along WITH their Strykers.

As to using Tanks in a police action, well, Iraw is not a simple police action, period. To claim it to be is pure folly. While their are portions of the country that having tanks patrol the streets with infantry may not be productive there are certainly PLENTY of areas where they are needed as well as the show of force they represent and the projection of power they can administer when needed.

The idea of using an armored unit without its tanks, swaping them for light vehicles, is appalling.

[Merik]

Another Armored Division would be a very good idea, but who could the Army send? They Army is obviously stretched a little thin, being that it already extend the tour of the 1st Armored Division as well as the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment.

I'm not being snotty. I seriously would like to know. Which units are ready or will be ready to go Iraq soon?

Also, I'm curious to know the amount of training it takes to drive/operate one a Stryker or any APC (M113 or foreign made) for that matter? There most be some learning curve involved.

P.S. I am also aware that many of the recently deployed units did not enter country with their full contingent of armor.


My unit, the 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment is leaving at the end of this year to go over there.


As for the Stryker, I can not remember for the life of me where I heard it but someone that was or is over there said that the Bradley's are more effective in an urban enviroment than a Stryker. The reason being is because the Stryker can not turn at the angles a M-2 or M-3 can so it takes it longer and is more difficult to get it out of tight spots. Just my 2 cents.

[Durandal]

I was thinking...

I wonder how much Ret. Brig. General David Grange got paid to mention using M113s by the company that would receive the contract for the upgrades...

[nerdman]

I was thinking...

I wonder how much Ret. Brig. General David Grange got paid to mention using M113s by the company that would receive the contract for the upgrades...

Good Call.

It's definitely a good time to be a military analyst. Those guys are pimpin' hard.

[nerdman]

My unit, the 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment is leaving at the end of this year to go over there.


As for the Stryker, I can not remember for the life of me where I heard it but someone that was or is over there said that the Bradley's are more effective in an urban enviroment than a Stryker. The reason being is because the Stryker can not turn at the angles a M-2 or M-3 can so it takes it longer and is more difficult to get it out of tight spots. Just my 2 cents.

I was thinking more in terms of saving lives.

Plus the Israelis use heavy armor in urban environments all the time.

But what do I know I'm armchair quarterbacking (generaling) here.

[esl]

One of the stryker troopers told us on another board that their vehicles are deadly. Insurgents don't hear them until there are right on top of them. Strykers profile should always be some kind of hit and run or road runner patrols . Bradelys are useless at these missions cause they use track too much and are way to loud.

[ogukuo72]

One of the stryker troopers told us on another board that their vehicles are deadly. Insurgents don't hear them until there are right on top of them. Strykers profile should always be some kind of hit and run or road runner patrols . Bradelys are useless at these missions cause they use track too much and are way to loud.

Rubber continous tracks should make tracked vehicles less noisy. Some nations already fit these to their M113's. There are also up-armour kits for M113, some specifically designed to deal with the RPG threat. As a tracked vehicle, M113's can make tighter turns than wheeled vehicles.

[esl]

One of the stryker troopers told us on another board that their vehicles are deadly. Insurgents don't hear them until there are right on top of them. Strykers profile should always be some kind of hit and run or road runner patrols . Bradelys are useless at these missions cause they use track too much and are way to loud.

Rubber continous tracks should make tracked vehicles less noisy. Some nations already fit these to their M113's. There are also up-armour kits for M113, some specifically designed to deal with the RPG threat. As a tracked vehicle, M113's can make tighter turns than wheeled vehicles.

Its not the tracks rubber on road but the wheels and tracks contact. Still way above wheels and bandtracks woun't solve this either. Maintenance of tracks [bradley ] requires twice as many spare parts lines to be maintained and sucks back 3 times as much fuel per km driven.

Soldier reported Strykers are near silent in final assault phase = no warning at night.

M-113 applique is a joke and won't stop RPGs , but the tight turning radius is an issue in confinded city blocks spaces and narrow old country roads.

[Uncle Sam]

This site (Some graphic images) has alot about this issue...HERE (http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/hmmwv.htm)

More about the GAVIN M113 (http://www.geocities.com/gavinpetition/)

[nerdman]

That guy sure does have a hard-on for the M113. Lot's of good info though.

[Chris1]

get to know the Author time
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26245&highlight=Mike+Sparks
Originally posted by Snake
Filter this through the Field Expedient Anti-Bull**** device. It's an article by Mike Sparks, Anti-USMC Mullah.


He washed out of Marine Infantry Officer Training(whateverr ya'll call it. ITB?), got offered a slot in Supply, refused it, and resigned with about 7 months of active duty. Has -loathed- the Marine Corps ever since. He was given a boot to the ass on the "OLD" SocNet, back around 1998.

He's an Officer in an Army Reserve rigger unit, nowadays. Publishes wild ****, like putting a Brigade of the 82nd on bicycles, etc. Always calls the M113 the "Gavin". He's the only one to do this, so you can recognize his works. Universally loathed. Even Hackworth said he's got a few rounds missing from his belt.

[nerdman]

get to know the Author time
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26245&highlight=Mike+Sparks
Originally posted by Snake
Filter this through the Field Expedient Anti-Bull**** device. It's an article by Mike Sparks, Anti-USMC Mullah.


He washed out of Marine Infantry Officer Training(whateverr ya'll call it. ITB?), got offered a slot in Supply, refused it, and resigned with about 7 months of active duty. Has -loathed- the Marine Corps ever since. He was given a boot to the ass on the "OLD" SocNet, back around 1998.

He's an Officer in an Army Reserve rigger unit, nowadays. Publishes wild ****, like putting a Brigade of the 82nd on bicycles, etc. Always calls the M113 the "Gavin". He's the only one to do this, so you can recognize his works. Universally loathed. Even Hackworth said he's got a few rounds missing from his belt.

Interesting

[gilgoul]

get to know the Author time
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26245&highlight=Mike+Sparks
Originally posted by Snake
Filter this through the Field Expedient Anti-Bull**** device. It's an article by Mike Sparks, Anti-USMC Mullah.


He washed out of Marine Infantry Officer Training(whateverr ya'll call it. ITB?), got offered a slot in Supply, refused it, and resigned with about 7 months of active duty. Has -loathed- the Marine Corps ever since. He was given a boot to the ass on the "OLD" SocNet, back around 1998.

He's an Officer in an Army Reserve rigger unit, nowadays. Publishes wild ****, like putting a Brigade of the 82nd on bicycles, etc. Always calls the M113 the "Gavin". He's the only one to do this, so you can recognize his works. Universally loathed. Even Hackworth said he's got a few rounds missing from his belt.

Actually the bycicle is not a bad idea if you want to be light and fast.
The swiss are using that, and some other oarmy i can`t remember, looks stupid but let`s not forget that it allowed the vieth minh and viet cong to bring a bunch of suppply quicly and quietly

[Uncle Sam]

get to know the Author time
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26245&highlight=Mike+Sparks
Originally posted by Snake
Filter this through the Field Expedient Anti-Bull**** device. It's an article by Mike Sparks, Anti-USMC Mullah.


He washed out of Marine Infantry Officer Training(whateverr ya'll call it. ITB?), got offered a slot in Supply, refused it, and resigned with about 7 months of active duty. Has -loathed- the Marine Corps ever since. He was given a boot to the ass on the "OLD" SocNet, back around 1998.

He's an Officer in an Army Reserve rigger unit, nowadays. Publishes wild ****, like putting a Brigade of the 82nd on bicycles, etc. Always calls the M113 the "Gavin". He's the only one to do this, so you can recognize his works. Universally loathed. Even Hackworth said he's got a few rounds missing from his belt.

Were you refering to my post? So this guy who wrote this is a whack job? Interesting...

This is the site where this came from, HERE (http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/index.htm)

[nerdman]

get to know the Author time
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26245&highlight=Mike+Sparks
Originally posted by Snake
Filter this through the Field Expedient Anti-Bull**** device. It's an article by Mike Sparks, Anti-USMC Mullah.


He washed out of Marine Infantry Officer Training(whateverr ya'll call it. ITB?), got offered a slot in Supply, refused it, and resigned with about 7 months of active duty. Has -loathed- the Marine Corps ever since. He was given a boot to the ass on the "OLD" SocNet, back around 1998.

He's an Officer in an Army Reserve rigger unit, nowadays. Publishes wild ****, like putting a Brigade of the 82nd on bicycles, etc. Always calls the M113 the "Gavin". He's the only one to do this, so you can recognize his works. Universally loathed. Even Hackworth said he's got a few rounds missing from his belt.

Were you refering to my post? So this guy who wrote this is a whack job? Interesting...

This is the site where this came from, HERE (http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/index.htm)

Interesting means interesting. Knowing a guys background (i.e. where he's coming from) is interesting. Plain and simple. Settle.

[Chris1]

Nerdman, yep.
whackjob?
don't know him, so can't say, but people who have think so and some of the stuff I've read written by him varies between
a) Idiotic
b) out of date, writing about problems that have been solved, or a solution is coming in (here he usually claims victory over the dinosaurs holding him back, obviously)
c) a dig at people, not concepts. "I don't like it because wossisname does and here is half thought out evidence to provie it!"

[Uncle Sam]

Nerdman: They are questions. "Where you referring to my post?"...."So, This guy who wrote this is a whack job?" and they were directed to Chris1

? = Question

I thought that too was "interesting"...Get it.

Settle!

[Chris1]

Ah, I was referring to this thread, as I know this guys stuff is going to be posted some time.
Your post was simply the first :)

[Uncle Sam]

What I posted was from that website. I find it "interesting" that the guy who wrote that article about the Hummer, Stryker and M113 is a "crack pot". Although he did have some valid points.

[nerdman]

Nerdman: They are questions. "Where you referring to my post?"...."So, This guy who wrote this is a whack job?" and they were directed to Chris1

? = Question

I thought that too was "interesting"...Get it.

Settle!

Uncle Sam's Pissed

[esl]

This site (Some graphic images) has alot about this issue...HERE

More about the GAVIN M113

Yes as the others point out ...not a good source. I read on some boards where posters have met Sparky [as they affectionatly refer to him as].He does not have too much credability with them. SO this is chance for all of you to show your quality of skepticism ;)

Don't worry too much about what he reports its mostly sensationalism. The worrying thing was that this was all been done for some congress man who wanted to mount a campaign against the whole program.

Guess thats "pork barrel politics" or is that lobby politics? :cantbeli:

[Uncle Sam]

Nerdman: They are questions. "Where you referring to my post?"...."So, This guy who wrote this is a whack job?" and they were directed to Chris1

? = Question

I thought that too was "interesting"...Get it.

Settle!

Uncle Sam's Pissed

Not yet. ;)

[IDFM203]

Well I have seen some (or many) questioning the amount of strikers or rather the lack of the requisite amount of them in theater, as well as questioning the actual protection of them that it provides and of course as well as the abilities of the HMMVV’s to protect the troops in Iraq and well its clear that something needs to be done. (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/29/125714.shtml) Now as that article states, the U.S. military has already tons of M113’s available and while I am not saying that M113’s are the best thing out there (for nothing is great or perfect), however IMO there is defiantly an argument to be made for the Israeli upgraded ones (which the U.S. can do as well if they choose to) that we use for they do offer what seems to be better protection against some of the threats the U.S. soldiers face in Iraq.

Now with that said, perhaps something like this is in order……..

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/m-113/zelda_n4.jpg

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/m-113/zelda.jpg

or even the Zelda 2 (which even provides more protection then the regular Zelda)
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/m-113/zelda2.jpg

or lastly the newer versions that was designed purposely for this kind of conflict (LIC).

Here are two pics of it with a article about it from Here (http://www.defense-update.com/products/l/l-vas.htm)

http://www.defense-update.com/images/l-vas-2.jpg

http://www.defense-update.com/images/l-vas-new.jpg

M-113 Upgrading & Modernization Program
Israel Military Industries

A different approach was implemented by the IDF with the preparation of the M-113 APC to engage in low intensity conflict. The current vehicle is fitted with surrounding mesh armor and an elevated fighting compartment, installed on the top of the existing fighting compartment. The IDF plans to introduce an improved and light weight protection suite for the M-113, currently under development by IMI and RAFAEL.

The improved modernized M113 will receive the engine designed for the A3 version (275 hp) a new steering wheel and torsion bars that will add to the weight carrying capability of the vehicle. The additional weight of the new suite will total 3.25 tons, and include full protection against heavy automatic fire and RPGs. as well as improved floor protection. The vehicle will also be fitted with a remote controlled weapon station (http://www.defense-update.com/products/i/imi-rcs.htm) that will improve both observation and weapons operation capability behind under protection. IMI has unveiled its own design of the remote control station.


Shalom :D

[Yard Ape]

The Stryker is the better vehicle for the Jobs being done in Iraq now. It is faster & better armoured than the M113. It is as more x-country mobile & better armoured than M1114. It has a remote weapon station that lets the HMG (or AGL) fire from under armour even while on the move. It carries a full rifle section (with ammo and equipment).

One problem that the M113 has is that it will greatly slow all the unarmourd vehicles that it has to protect.

[esl]

The Stryker is the better vehicle for the Jobs being done in Iraq now. It is faster & better armoured than the M113. It is as more x-country mobile & better armoured than M1114. It has a remote weapon station that lets the HMG (or AGL) fire from under armour even while on the move. It carries a full rifle section (with ammo and equipment).

One problem that the M113 has is that it will greatly slow all the unarmourd vehicles that it has to protect.

All true but if the alternative is a unarmored HUMMER then maybe rehabilitating M-113A3 would make sence. Looking at a book over the weekend I noted that the M-113A3 came with the "P900" applique armor. This is the same mesh armor applied to the block 1 improvement to the AAVP-7 prior to ODS in 1990. The armor looks alot like the Zelda upgrade pics above but is shaped like the AIFV applique. A serb showed me a drawing of this armor that shows very hard steel with polyurthane filler. Not sure on what that would do but HMG protection and Rifle Grenade protection is possible...no way RPG level.


Anyway the other book showed two mesh layers with some coating over the mesh. This could turn the armor into a double layer bulging plate?

[IDFM203]

The Stryker is the better vehicle for the Jobs being done in Iraq now. It is faster & better armoured than the M113. It is as more x-country mobile & better armoured than M1114. It has a remote weapon station that lets the HMG (or AGL) fire from under armour even while on the move. Well perhaps though can you explain the better armored to me? I am not saying your wrong, for to be honest I don’t know much about the Stryker, though Id like to see how its better protected then the Israeli M113’s that I brought down.

Anyways the way I see it, is that to me its not even about what’s better a Stryker or a Israeli upgraded M113 or even the wheeled vs tracked debate, what it comes down to is the fact that there is simply not enough Strykers in theater NOW and the HMMVV's we can all agree are not acceptable at all.


Also I think you should take another look at those Israeli upgraded ones that I brought down as to the added firepower that it has over the older M113’s that you might have been familiar with (especially the last model and pic that I brought down that comes with its own remote controlled weapons station)

Shalom :D