Islamic Mosques

[vikingblade]

ok, ive got a question for those who have experience with islam and muslims. who runs and controls this organized religion? who controls what goes on in the mosque? is it controlled by a set group of people who say what is allowed to be said and done in their church and in the name of their religion and god?

im from the usa, born and bred catholic. an organized religion, with a church and priest and a clearly defined hierarchy. with strict rules of what a priest in a church can and can not say or advocate in the name of god and church.

if a group of catholic priests started preaching about doing violence to muslims and calling for the destruction of islam, and the middle east, their asses would be pulled immediately. the church as an organization as well as its followers and media would never allow it.

so, if islam is about peace. if these muslim extremists are just a small percentage of the overall muslim population, what they preach is unacceptable and wrong to the peaceful majority of muslims, Why is it that the extremist scum are doing their recruiting and preaching from mosques?? how is this possible? why are they allowed to advocate and spread violence from a peaceful religions place of worship? am i missing something here? does this so called religion have any control over its churches? anyone can just say whatever they want?

anyone, please enlighten me, what am i missing? why is the islamic religion not directly responsible for the ouright support, recruiting and creation of a violent, radical islamic movement that advocates mass murder and terror against all non muslims?? these radical clerics are indeed preaching in islamic mosques right?? do they have a radical only mosque??

[stuntman]

is it controlled by a set group of people who say what is allowed to be said and done in their church and in the name of their religion and god?
Exactly right! Take it from one who used to date one! Short story, I supported the war. On a friday (Thier sunday mass, I am also Roman Catholic) she asked her cleric for guidence on my opinion and he told her "Any one who supports the war especially a non- believer is evil" and the rest is history. As you can imagine I was extreamly bothered by this for I always thought of her as a free thinking fellow American, but she's now one of those who you see on tv protesting and blocking traffic and even almost got raped by a fellow believer (muslim American male) from her college! So thats sums it up for me. And by the way she is trying to get back with me, I am only sticking around for the apology and maybe some good P*ssy. Not very Christian but I'm a guy, go figure..
bye..!

[dacanadianbomb]

Ok here she goes, I might be off here so anyone who actually knows please set me straight.


AS faras I understand a person in Islam which would come close to the status of the pope would the prophet Muhammed, or Prophets son.
Since he isnt around anymore and there never was another prophet after that ( correct me if im wrong ) there is no central figure.

The Imams are the ones that decree the process in their own mosques, therefor a radical Imam can use his mosque to recruit people.He can be denounced by other groupings of Imams, yet noone can withdraw his right to preach since there is no central body as far as I know.

The reason for a catholic priest not being able to incite hatred and violence upon another religion is because Chritianity is represented and mostly to the majority in 1st world countries where other peoples rights and beliefs are respected. Whereas Islam is mostly present in 3rd world countries, or 2nd world countries with authoritarian leadership.Rights and beliefs are not as respected there as elsewhere.

One also has to take into account that these scumbag Imams recruiting people are just using the sanctity of mosques to do their dirty work, since religious houses are usually harder to get a warrant to wiretap on than a normal household.Its also a political hot potatoe to do so. If it goes well ok, if it screws up you have to be good at damage control.


Stuntman , whats you getting laid have to do with the question about the religion?

[henksmoeder]

Christian religion is the same way. Every religion has blood on its hands, because every religion have got their maverick preachers. You can be sure there are christian churches in the western world where they preach violence. Not even to mention the extremely violent past of the christians during for example the inquisition. An example of a more present time is the French Catholics during the second world war. The catholics were famous for their fierce recistance and violent raids, which was also preached in churches.

It's a shame that so many people here blame 'The Muslims'. I'm going to stress it once more. NOT every muslim is an extremist. When I visited a mosque for example, they welcomed me with open arms, offered me drinks and cookies and they offered us the oportunity to ask questions to an imam.

The increase of the number fundamentalists is a reaction to whats happening around the world. They aren't treated very well in Europe and a taxi driver in the US told me how he was afraid to even exit his vehicle. Furthermore, people are dropping a lot of bombs on muslim countries and the only thing they have to fight back with are some ****ty rifles from WWII and a couple of homemade rocket launchers. Without saying that these wars are bad or good, it's pretty obvious that some people over there are pretty pissed off. Wouldn't you be if your kid/wife/brother/mother/whoever is 'collateral damage'?
Almost every bomb, however carefuly dropped, results in 'collateral damage', and every 'loved one' killed results in another possible fundementalist. I'm not saying that it can be justified, but always keep in mind how you felt when, for example, the four balckwater emloyees (civies) were killed. You probably felt anger.

[StarvingStudent47]

Furthermore, people are dropping a lot of bombs on muslim countries and the only thing they have to fight back with are some ****ty rifles from WWII and a couple of homemade rocket launchers.

That's just plain not true, whether you're talking about the Soviet tanks and aircraft of the Iraqi military, or the American-made jets of Egypt, or the nuclear weapons of Pakistan.

[vikingblade]

Soooooooooooo....basically its an out of control, third world religion that deserves no respect or reverance.

if islam has no control over its mosques and religious leaders who speak from these mosques, how can this religion be given respect?

if a cleric at an islamic mosque.... advocates mass murder and destruction, it can no longer be considered a religion. it has become a radical, criminal organization of murderers, hiding and using a religion as a shield. these scum do not respect the mosque...they fire rpg's from them, so, why should we respect them! its a farce. they are playing the religion card.

do any mosques clerics preach against these radical uses of their religion and mosques? is the muslim majority against these violent, radical view or not?

IF TRUE ISLAM IS ABOUT PEACE.
IF ISLAM IS NOT TERRORISM
IF ISLAM IS NOT VIOLENCE
IF THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS REJECT VIOLENT, EXTREMIST VIEWS
IF ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF MUSLIMS ARE RADICAL

THEN WHY ISNT ALL THESE SO-CALLED TRUE MUSLIMS KICKING THEIR RADICAL ASSES OUT OF THEIR MOSQUES.

ISLAM.... Either take a hard stand against radical violent views and banish these terrorists from your mosques, or.... allow your religion to be a shield and excuse for mass murder and destruction, AND be considered the same. CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. ONE OR THE OTHER.

[-Max2-]

The increase of the number fundamentalists is a reaction to whats happening around the world. They aren't treated very well in Europe and a taxi driver in the US told me how he was afraid to even exit his vehicle. Furthermore, people are dropping a lot of bombs on muslim countries and the only thing they have to fight back with are some ****ty rifles from WWII and a couple of homemade rocket launchers.

BS.

It always someone else fault but its never the terrorists fault... :roll:

Dont try to find excuses for what those terrorists did. There are no excuses...

[big_les]

Soooooooooooo....basically its an out of control, third world religion that deserves no respect or reverance.

if islam has no control over its mosques and religious leaders who speak from these mosques, how can this religion be given respect?

if a cleric at an islamic mosque.... advocates mass murder and destruction, it can no longer be considered a religion. it has become a radical, criminal organization of murderers, hiding and using a religion as a shield. these scum do not respect the mosque...they fire rpg's from them, so, why should we respect them! its a farce. they are playing the religion card.

do any mosques clerics preach against these radical uses of their religion and mosques? is the muslim majority against these violent, radical view or not?

IF TRUE ISLAM IS ABOUT PEACE.
IF ISLAM IS NOT TERRORISM
IF ISLAM IS NOT VIOLENCE
IF THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS REJECT VIOLENT, EXTREMIST VIEWS
IF ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF MUSLIMS ARE RADICAL

THEN WHY ISNT ALL THESE SO-CALLED TRUE MUSLIMS KICKING THEIR RADICAL ASSES OUT OF THEIR MOSQUES.

ISLAM.... Either take a hard stand against radical violent views and banish these terrorists from your mosques, or.... allow your religion to be a shield and excuse for mass murder and destruction, AND be considered the same. CANT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. ONE OR THE OTHER.

As people have hinted at, it's more the context of the situation that perpetuates the hate and violence. The religion involved doesn't matter as much. Christianity was twisted for similar purposes many times in the ancient and medieval world, but because its main proponents are now western democracies that have subdued the loony bible-bashers, Christianity is closer to the moderate, love-thy-neighbour religion it was arguably intended to be. Islam however still has its main support in areas where democracy and freedom are new concepts. To put it simplistically, Islam in general is further back down the line of development, held back by its social and political contexts in the middle-east. Muslims in the West are generally much more like 'us', though devout in their beliefs. As top the apparent vocal support for the radicals, its a minority of loudmouthed loonies that have their freedom of speech because of the western socio-political situation. Moderate Muslims *do* condemn them on a regular basis, but there's not an awful lot they can do apart from expel them from councils and bodies that they probably don't care about in the first place. Finally, you must realise that a lot of moderate 'western' Muslims, and indeed elsewhere in the world, do abhor the violence and teachings of the loonies, but still feel they must condemn the war in Iraq for their own reasons which include the legality of it, the need for it, the politics behind it, and the fact that *their people* as well as the loonies, are dying every day. You can be a devout muslim, be against the war completely and still not support radical Islam. Some muslims here completely support the war, but like many most will be concerned at the direction the after-action has taken.

[vikingblade]

by the way....newsflash. there are no catholic churches in america preaching death, destruction to muslims and actually having members of those churches going out and killing a bunch of muslims. if they did, **** would really hit the fan. would never happen.

as far as the inquisition and the crusades...blah, blah, blah. im not interested in discussing something that happened hundreds of years ago...its freakin pointless. but, that does bring up a good point. in the past, past, when people were more primitive, superstitous and less civilized, religious extremism ran rampant. everyone was killing eachother over religion. the west figured it out, evolved. became civalized. guess what, the middle east and the islamic religion hasnt.

look, its simple, if true muslims dont want to be associated with the terrorists and thought of as violent religious fanatics, then bloody do something about it. if a bunch of christians stomped into their mosque and pissed all over the place, they would be in a religious uproar. but where is the outrage, when a radical cleric distorts and twists their beloved peaceful religion? uses it as a vehicle to incite terror, death and destruction??? isnt this an affront to their peaceful religion? isnt this pissin all over their religion? what could be more disrespectful to a peaceful religion than using it for violence?!? I DONT GET IT. it doesnt make sense does it?

[vikingblade]

well thought out post big_les. however, there are lots n lots of extremely radical mosques and clerics all over europe. england is bursting with em. as far as what the majority muslims can do.... they are the majority arnt they? dont allow radical clerics to preach in their mosques. the kkk isnt allowed to preach in a catholic church. when the radicals gather at a mosque to spread their crap, the true muslims should gather in much greater number to banish them. retake their religion for gods sakes. what is the other option...throw ya hands in the air and say oh well, let the scum distort our religion and spread violence from our place of worship. PLEASE.

how is this done anyways.... seriously, is a mosque radical all the time, and another is moderate all the time. each with its own resident cleric? or do they say.... tue-fri is moderate days, the other days you can preach death to the non-believers.

[Kilgor]

but where is the outrage, when a radical cleric distorts and twists their beloved peaceful religion? uses it as a vehicle to incite terror, death and destruction??? isnt this an affront to their peaceful religion? isnt this pissin all over their religion? what could be more disrespectful to a peaceful religion than using it for violence?!? I DONT GET IT. it doesnt make sense does it?

Thats a very interesting point.

Where is the uproar about their religion being defiled ?

[cut]

by the way....newsflash. there are no catholic churches in america preaching death, destruction to muslims and actually having members of those churches going out and killing a bunch of muslims. if they did, **** would really hit the fan. would never happen.

as far as the inquisition and the crusades...blah, blah, blah. im not interested in discussing something that happened hundreds of years ago...its freakin pointless. but, that does bring up a good point. in the past, past, when people were more primitive, superstitous and less civilized, religious extremism ran rampant. everyone was killing eachother over religion. the west figured it out, evolved. became civalized. guess what, the middle east and the islamic religion hasnt.

look, its simple, if true muslims dont want to be associated with the terrorists and thought of as violent religious fanatics, then bloody do something about it. if a bunch of christians stomped into their mosque and pissed all over the place, they would be in a religious uproar. but where is the outrage, when a radical cleric distorts and twists their beloved peaceful religion? uses it as a vehicle to incite terror, death and destruction??? isnt this an affront to their peaceful religion? isnt this pissin all over their religion? what could be more disrespectful to a peaceful religion than using it for violence?!? I DONT GET IT. it doesnt make sense does it?

it's those who are poor that do this the reason, why you don't find this in america is because it's the richest country in the world

[Fox2]

it's those who are poor that do this the reason, why you don't find this in america is because it's the richest country in the world

I have to disagree with you there, cut. Many of these terrorist whackos are wealthy or at least comfortable. I believe the amount of people driven to terrorist acts due to financial status is not as substantial as you guess.

[Chuckie]

The thing that get's me is that I never hear any Muslim leaders really speak out when these Fanatics do what they do. Sure there's the ocassional person that will show up on FoxTV and say how it's a bad thing, but I seldom see any Muslim leaders that are outraged. I watch and read the news from all over the world and hardly see it.


If Muslim leaders truly disagree with what the fanatics are doing, why don't they speak out more.

There is 1 exception though. The Muslims in Lakawanna New York did turn in their own when they found out they trained with AlQueda. They should be commended for that. Hopefully things like that will happen in the future, but I haven't seen any other examples..

[cut]

it's those who are poor that do this the reason, why you don't find this in america is because it's the richest country in the world

I have to disagree with you there, cut. Many of these terrorist whackos are wealthy or at least comfortable. I believe the amount of people driven to terrorist acts due to financial status is not as substantial as you guess.

Yes, I know that but the following they get is poor, without that following they are nothing. Yes they were rich and intelligent in the case of 9/11 but they had to be to get to the US. I think you'll find the same isn't true for those who did the boat attacks on the end of the oil pipeline out at sea.

[Fox2]

Yes, I know that but the following they get is poor, without that following they are nothing. Yes they were rich and intelligent in the case of 9/11 but they had to be to get to the US. I think you'll find the same isn't true for those who did the boat attacks on the end of the oil pipeline out at sea.

Their following stems from religion, not financial status. You are correct, though, without their following, they are nothing. But, give the followers more funds, and I guarantee you they would still be in the same spot, committing the same heinous acts. The reason behind it has more to do with religion, emotion, and pride than other factors, in my opinion.

[cut]

Yes, I know that but the following they get is poor, without that following they are nothing. Yes they were rich and intelligent in the case of 9/11 but they had to be to get to the US. I think you'll find the same isn't true for those who did the boat attacks on the end of the oil pipeline out at sea.

Their following stems from religion, not financial status. You are correct, though, without their following, they are nothing. But, give the followers more funds, and I guarantee you they would still be in the same spot, committing the same heinous acts. The reason behind it has more to do with religion, emotion, and pride than other factors, in my opinion.

Yes but if you think about how the situation would be if you swapped the palestinans and Israelis, the palestinians would have an army and would not use suicide bombers. Having said that I don't think the israelis would have suicide bombers if the roles were switched but that may be because there are so few jews in the world and Israelis know this well, which is why they hurt so much if an israeli dies, but I wouldn't rule out french resistance style tactics.

My point being it's not the religion that makes them into suicide bombers, or at least that's not the biggest factor, as a lot of people try to make it out to be.

[Fox2]

Yes but if you think about how the situation would be if you swapped the palestinans and Israelis, the palestinians would have an army and would not use suicide bombers. Having said that I don't think the israelis would have suicide bombers if the roles were switched but that may be because there are so few jews in the world and Israelis know this well, which is why they hurt so much if an israeli dies, but I wouldn't rule out french resistance style tactics.

My point being it's not the religion that makes them into suicide bombers, or at least that's not the biggest factor, as a lot of people try to make it out to be.

You are not making your point well.

Religion is one of the biggest factors in Middle Eastern relations, and is also by and large, the biggest factor when it comes to Mid-Eastern terrorism.

I have noticed that many people do not understand that the Middle East is an entirely different mentality. The mindset is not worse or better, it is just different from one born in the West would find natural. It is obvious in reading many of these responses about the current focus on the Middle East.

As for your hypothetical situation with the Israeli/Palestinian crisis, I disagree with your assessment. If the Palestinian terrorist groups such as Hamas and the PLO had an army, and Israel were in the Palestinians' place, I assure you there would be no more Israelis left. The Palestinian "freedom fighters" fight not for land, nation or people, they've been offered exactly that countless times. No, they fight for the complete and utter destruction of a people. It seems outrageous to the Western mindset, but that is exactly what it is; outrageous. But let's not start yet another Israel/Palestine discussion.

Based on some of our previous discussions, I think it's obvious it is pointless to debate these points, as you will not budge from your standpoint, nor will I from mine.

Let's agree to disagree.

[cut]

the UN would be stairght in there with peacekeeping forces to protect the Israelis, so I don't accept the argument that the israelis woud be wiped out. But that's all hypothetical and doesn't really matter.

As for standpoints yours, isn't really that different to mine, so I'm not asking you to budge. I agree with you on the most part, but it things such as saying that people in the middle-east have completly different mentalities which we can't comprehend, I've lived in and visited a lot of different countries all through my life and I have never come across a mentality that was sufficiently different to mine to explain what you're saying.

but other then that we are pretty much going along the same lines so I'll leave it here if you want.

[Javehn]

Cut , you take kinda big interest in those subjects . Are you Media analiser or something for that matter ? You have some sort of connections to the subject ?

Because i think you are full of **** , excuse me . Some people in this forum really starting to annoy .

And by the way , Usama was rich like a MF . It didn't stoped him to fight in Afganistan .


I've lived in and visited a lot of different countries all through my life and I have never come across a mentality that was sufficiently different to mine to explain what you're saying.

Sorry , but i have a difficulty to bellieve that .

[Truthsayer]

Religion is one of the biggest factors in Middle Eastern relations, and is also by and large, the biggest factor when it comes to Mid-Eastern terrorism.


You are confused.

Religion isn't the reason for terrorism; poverty, power-struggles, clan-tradition, hard-line 'an-eye-for-an-eye'-tradition and blood-feuds are.

The religion is only the most effectiv tool to wage war for your own (hidden) agenda.

[Fox2]

Religion is one of the biggest factors in Middle Eastern relations, and is also by and large, the biggest factor when it comes to Mid-Eastern terrorism.


You are confused.

Religion isn't the reason for terrorism; poverty, power-struggles, clan-tradition, hard-line 'an-eye-for-an-eye'-tradition and blood-feuds are.

The religion is only the most effectiv tool to wage war for your own (hidden) agenda.

I would agree to the extent that religion is the "galvenizing force" of Middle Eastern terrorism. It is used to encourage, and sometimes drive it.

I will stand by what I have said in the past; humiliation and personal pride play the biggest roles in encouraging terrorism in the Middle East. Religion galvenizes that feeling of humiliation, into a tool the religious leaders can use.

I also disagree with your assumption that I am confused. p-)

Just for curiousity's sake, have you ever been to the Middle East?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yes, I know that but the following they get is poor, without that following they are nothing. Yes they were rich and intelligent in the case of 9/11 but they had to be to get to the US. I think you'll find the same isn't true for those who did the boat attacks on the end of the oil pipeline out at sea.

Their following stems from religion, not financial status. You are correct, though, without their following, they are nothing. But, give the followers more funds, and I guarantee you they would still be in the same spot, committing the same heinous acts. The reason behind it has more to do with religion, emotion, and pride than other factors, in my opinion.

Yes but if you think about how the situation would be if you swapped the palestinans and Israelis, the palestinians would have an army and would not use suicide bombers. Having said that I don't think the israelis would have suicide bombers if the roles were switched but that may be because there are so few jews in the world and Israelis know this well, which is why they hurt so much if an israeli dies, but I wouldn't rule out french resistance style tactics.
My point being it's not the religion that makes them into suicide bombers, or at least that's not the biggest factor, as a lot of people try to make it out to be.
Well, theres a HUGE madaf*cking difference between the French Resistance tactics and Palestinian tactics. If Palestinians stuck to French resistance tactics, not only would they have a state by now, but the respect of many Israelis as well.

[cut]

Yes, I know that but the following they get is poor, without that following they are nothing. Yes they were rich and intelligent in the case of 9/11 but they had to be to get to the US. I think you'll find the same isn't true for those who did the boat attacks on the end of the oil pipeline out at sea.

Their following stems from religion, not financial status. You are correct, though, without their following, they are nothing. But, give the followers more funds, and I guarantee you they would still be in the same spot, committing the same heinous acts. The reason behind it has more to do with religion, emotion, and pride than other factors, in my opinion.

Yes but if you think about how the situation would be if you swapped the palestinans and Israelis, the palestinians would have an army and would not use suicide bombers. Having said that I don't think the israelis would have suicide bombers if the roles were switched but that may be because there are so few jews in the world and Israelis know this well, which is why they hurt so much if an israeli dies, but I wouldn't rule out french resistance style tactics.
My point being it's not the religion that makes them into suicide bombers, or at least that's not the biggest factor, as a lot of people try to make it out to be.
Well, theres a HUGE madaf*cking difference between the French Resistance tactics and Palestinian tactics. If Palestinians stuck to French resistance tactics, not only would they have a state by now, but the respect of many Israelis as well.

that's the point RA

[The Walrus]

I've been to a mosque once, but it was ages ago with my primary school.
What I can remember of it is that you can't wear shoes inside a mosque, and that you have to wash your hands very often, that's all.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the radical Muslim defenders, I have to make a point here.

Violence perpetrated by a religion happens in a number of ways. When it was done by Christians, in the "name" of Christianity (and I suppose others), it was done contrary to the teachings of Christianity. That means that those committing the acts were violating their own religion at the behest of evil men pursuing their own agenda.

Am I not correct in pointing out that Islam contains within the Koran, several passages directing violence against nonbelievers? That these passages are simply glossed over & explained away by more "moderate" practitioners? Sort of the way Christians ignore parts of the Bible that we disagree with (*** before marriage, eating meat on Friday or similarly innocuous stuff).

But in Islam, the Koran is literally taken as the word of God, as transcribed directly to Mohammad as he wandered in the desert. Every version of the Koran is exactly the same - there are no "versions" of the Koran as differing Christian sects have produced differing versions of the Bible. (As an aside - there have been ancient versions of the Koran discovered in "document graves" which are different from modern versions, indicating that it has in fact been changed by man...but I digress)

So what I'm trying to point out is that the radical Islamists are only following their instruction book. They don't ignore the ugly parts. Meaning no disrespect to anybody, but I just don't understand how anybody can both claim a document as literally the word and instruction of God, and also simply throw out parts they find inconvenient. It would seem to be all or nothing...no?

Correct me if I'm wrong...if anybody has insight into this feel free to speak up. Anybody read the Koran? I've read it but am by no means an authority. From the limited reading I did, I found it difficult to follow, as it's not in narrative form. More of a list of unrelated and ungrouped bullet statements that sometimes contradicted prior statements. Anybody got better info?

[Truthsayer]

Ever read the Torrah? Bibel?

Passages against non-believers there too...if you choose to follow them, blame yourself, not the religion.

[ibstolidude]

Religion is one of the biggest factors in Middle Eastern relations, and is also by and large, the biggest factor when it comes to Mid-Eastern terrorism.


You are confused.

Religion isn't the reason for terrorism; poverty, power-struggles, clan-tradition, hard-line 'an-eye-for-an-eye'-tradition and blood-feuds are.

The religion is only the most effectiv tool to wage war for your own (hidden) agenda.
you kid yourself - regardless of my lack of religion - only a knucklehead has been to places and does not beleive that the religios order does not place a major role in places like Afghanistan, with respect to their poverty, power struggles and eye-for-an-eye tradition. they are impossible to seperate.

[Javehn]

Ever read the Torrah? Bibel?

Passages against non-believers there too...if you choose to follow them, blame yourself, not the religion.

Oh , where , where , where ? Show me , show me .
I want to see it , please . You talled it , and now the burden of proove is on you . And by the way , i learned in religious school for 6 years , so you cannot fool me .
Where is it written in the Torah/Bibble , that there is passages on the "infidels" ?

Thruthsayer , again . You don't know **** , do you ?

[henksmoeder]

The increase of the number fundamentalists is a reaction to whats happening around the world. They aren't treated very well in Europe and a taxi driver in the US told me how he was afraid to even exit his vehicle. Furthermore, people are dropping a lot of bombs on muslim countries and the only thing they have to fight back with are some ****ty rifles from WWII and a couple of homemade rocket launchers.

BS.

It always someone else fault but its never the terrorists fault... :roll:

Dont try to find excuses for what those terrorists did. There are no excuses...

@ -Max-: I'm not saying who's fault it is, but every conflict has a cause. Even how silly it may seem to us. In holland we had a hostage-taker who was angry about Widescreen Tv's. Still there's a cause. There was a cause (or there were causes) why the US invaded Iraq and there are causes why people fight back. That's what I said. Do you think that thses people suddenly decided to be a fundementalist? Nope, even they had their causes.

[StarvingStudent47]

Yes but if you think about how the situation would be if you swapped the palestinans and Israelis, the palestinians would have an army and would not use suicide bombers.

Not true. The Sunni majority in Pakistan (which controls the army) ALSO launched several high-profile suicide bombings against the Shi'ite minority. It's a religion thing, not a "no other means" thing. They CHOOSE suicide bombing.

If suicide bombing was the easiest/last resort for poor folk, it'd be the most common form of war in Latin America. BUT IT ISN'T. And plenty of populations in Latin America are poorer and more desperate than Palestinians have ever been.

Yet there has NEVER, EVER been a suicide bomber in Latin America. Why? They're Catholic, not Muslim.

[/quote]Having said that I don't think the israelis would have suicide bombers if the roles were switched but that may be because there are so few jews in the world and Israelis know this well, which is why they hurt so much if an israeli dies, but I wouldn't rule out french resistance style tactics.[/quote]

Want to see what happens when the roles are switched? Look at the 1948 War, when the Arabs were armed by the USSR and no government aided Israel. What did the Israelis do? The Haganah/IDF bought black-market weapons from Czechoslovakia, formed a highly-disciplined military, engaged Arab MILITARIES instead of targeting women and children, and they even cleaned up their own radicals (using lethal force against the Irgun when necessary).

[Tane Angle]

The last time there was an overwhelmingly organized religion in Islam was under the Sunni Abbasid Caliphate. A caliph is something equitable to an emperor, but with a divine right normally. Under the Abbasids, Islam went through a true Golden Age, with the most advanced cities in the world, centers of learning and philosophy, and full indoor plumbing in many cities including the great cities of Cordova and Baghdad. And they were amazingly peaceful. (By the way, the Abbasids certainly weren't all fun and games. They just weren't horrible if one didn't question their authority.)

Islam, like nearly all other religions, is not organized in the same way that the Catholic Church is. Each mosque, or group of mosques, has its own particular style and ideals. There are mosques that blend Buddhism and Islam, mosques that preach peace, mosques that preach war, mosques that preach love, mosques that preach hate. There's something for everyone.

It's not black and white, just as Christianity isn't. Did every Christian commit genocide throughout the ages, most infamously under the Spanish Inquisition? No. Same with Muslims. But keep in mind what happened to Christians who disagreed with the main faith. Look at Galileo. In many of these nations, dissenting is signing one's own death warrant.

There are literally thousands of variations of the main forms of Islam-Sunni, Shiite, Druze (by many defintions, though some Druze don't like people considering them to be Muslims), Alawites, Sufis, etc. Within the Druze, a small group to begin with, there are many sub-divisions.

By the way, in Lebanon, those who had tanks usually used them. That wasn't always a good thing for those anywhere near the battle, but tanks were used to a great extent. The same is true elsewhere. Groups that used legitimate tactics, like tanks, also often used terrorist tactics, like car bombs and assasinations. Thus, were the groups still terrorists?

In Lebanon, a country smaller than Rhode Island, there were more than fifty major factions, most of them greatly sub-divided. I still can't comprehend the complexities of Lebanon sometimes, much less of the whole Middle East.

One last note, if I may-it was said earlier on this thread that maybe we shouldn't respect such a disorganized religion. It is specifically because we are not respecting their culture, particularly their religion, that we are running into many of the problems we are in Iraq. For example, don't sit in a meeting cross-legged, as it shows your host/guest the soles of your shoes. Cordon off buildings, then knock on the door; don't just barge, as the women might not be covered yet. If we kick down a door and see a woman from a more conservative family's face, her family will not be too keen on Americans. It's simple things like that, that every person deployed to Iraq should have been taught beforehand, but often isn't. Respecting them is the only way for them to respect us.

This is pretty disorganized, sorry. I'll try to revise it later. Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[WolverineBlue]

Check this link out for some interesting perspective on Islam and the Arab world in general.

http://denbeste.nu/essays/strategic_overview.shtml

[vikingblade]

so, islam is a religion where one mosque preaches violence and destruction. outright advocation of literal violence, and another mosque preaches peace. yet they are considered the same religion!!???????
im sorry but that is insane. this sounds acceptable?

ill say this again... IF THE MUSLIM MAJORITY DOES NOT FORBID RADICAL, VIOLENT VIEWS FROM BEING SPREAD IN THEIR MOSQUES, THEY ARE VALIDATING, SUPPORTING, AND ALLOWING THESE EXTREMISTS TO USE THEIR RELIGION TO SPREAD VIOLENCE AND MASS MURDER.

if an islamic mosque is advocating violence, islam is advocating violence. the mosque and the cleric represents the religion.

if an offshoot radical group of catholics started preaching violence and actually acted on it, it would immediately be banned by the entire church. the priest would be gone.

if you want to have an organized legitimate religion in the modern age, there needs to be set guidelines. which is it... peace or violence. otherwise, in my opinion, it is not legitimate.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Tane - good informative post.

Since all major religions seem to have had their barbaric period, where the church itself was the political power broker - maybe what we're looking at is a faith that's operating "out of time". That is, socially much of the Muslim world is still behaving as if it were 500 years ago.

Except that they may have 21st century asymmetrical weaponry at their disposal. Which is scary.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Tane - good informative post.

Since all major religions seem to have had their barbaric period, where the church itself was the political power broker - maybe what we're looking at is a faith that's operating "out of time". That is, socially much of the Muslim world is still behaving as if it were 500 years ago.

Except that they may have 21st century asymmetrical weaponry at their disposal. Which is scary.

[Tane Angle]

Thanks bud. You're right, often times it does seem like they are in a different era.


this sounds acceptable?
You don't have to accept or not accept the way Islam is. It just is that way, whether we like it or not.

Some Catholic priests have preached slaughtering gays. Doesn't mean all, or even most, Catholics agree with them. By the way, I'm Catholic; I don't mean any of these things to be anti-Catholic, or anti-anyone. Aside from terrorists/hostage takers/genocidal maniancs and the like, I'm not really anti-too many people.

I want to reiterate my usual disclaimer. I mean no offense, disrespect, etc. to anyone with any of my writings. I apologize in advance if I miswrite and do offend, disrespect, etc. anyone; that was, of course, not my intention.


if you want to have an organized legitimate religion in the modern age
That's the whole point, it is not an organized religion in the Catholic sense. Catholicism is actually surprisingly unique in how organized it is. Look at Buddhism (the Dalai Lama is recognized by only one group of Buddhists), look at Hinduism, look at Protestantism. And offshoot, radical groups of would-be Catholics have existed since before Catholicism was Catholicism. Look at Mel Gibson's father. How come the Pope hasn't condemmed Mr. Gibson's remarks? How come priests and bishops haven't?

Some would respond by saying that Mr. Gibson isn't a priest, so it's irrelevant. However, if one looks at Islam, many forms of Protestantism, and many other faiths, one might see that Catholicism is also rather unique in the idea of "professional clergy." Usually in Islam, an imam or cleric is not quite elected, but does achieve their post because of the people's respect for him, not because the would-be cleric has an official degree from a seminary hanging on his wall.

Moreover, legitimacy isn't an issue. They believe what they believe, and do what they do. They don't need our stamp of approval. And they won't change just because we ask them to. They won't change if we point guns at them and bomb them either. Well, they might turn to extremism. We can't look at them through the lense of our society. We have to understand them from their point of view, understand why they believe what they believe, why they do what they do. Relatively few people do this. I admit that I don't, or simply can't, too often.

Want to change them? Build schools and hospitals. Everything else, including security, comes second to those two priorities. That's why groups get support in Palestine, Lebanon, and Iraq-they build schools and hospitals faster than Israel/the Lebanese government/Civilian Provisional Authority do. In Lebanon, groups build schools and hospitals in warzones that were most certainly not secure. And they got support from the people for it.

Often, certain mosques are linked with certain hospitals and schools. Thus, clerics might teach their beliefs to students, and as there are no other schools to choose from, parents send their kids to school, where they are more or less preached to. Since the mosque, the school, and the hospital are more or less the same entity, they become synonomous.

People say "Cleric Bob is the only person around who will pay for a doctor to care for my ill son. If the doctor takes care of my son, I will like Cleric Bob." We have to provide more doctors than Cleric Bob does.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[California Joe]

Grey areas. You jokers need to read what Uncle Tane writes for he is wise.

[Tane Angle]

:oops: Thank you, sir. I'm actually just good at faking it. Besides, I don't have any craftsman's skills, like weapons manufacturing. p-)

[vikingblade]

Thanks bud. You're right, often times it does seem like they are in a different era.


this sounds acceptable?
You don't have to accept or not accept the way Islam is. It just is that way, whether we like it or not.

Some Catholic priests have preached slaughtering gays. Doesn't mean all, or even most, Catholics agree with them. By the way, I'm Catholic; I don't mean any of these things to be anti-Catholic, or anti-anyone. Aside from terrorists/hostage takers/genocidal maniancs and the like, I'm not really anti-too many people.

I want to reiterate my usual disclaimer. I mean no offense, disrespect, etc. to anyone with any of my writings. I apologize in advance if I miswrite and do offend, disrespect, etc. anyone; that was, of course, not my intention.


if you want to have an organized legitimate religion in the modern age
That's the whole point, it is not an organized religion in the Catholic sense. Catholicism is actually surprisingly unique in how organized it is. Look at Buddhism (the Dalai Lama is recognized by only one group of Buddhists), look at Hinduism, look at Protestantism. And offshoot, radical groups of would-be Catholics have existed since before Catholicism was Catholicism. Look at Mel Gibson's father. How come the Pope hasn't condemmed Mr. Gibson's remarks? How come priests and bishops haven't?

Some would respond by saying that Mr. Gibson isn't a priest, so it's irrelevant. However, if one looks at Islam, many forms of Protestantism, and many other faiths, one might see that Catholicism is also rather unique in the idea of "professional clergy." Usually in Islam, an imam or cleric is not quite elected, but does achieve their post because of the people's respect for him, not because the would-be cleric has an official degree from a seminary hanging on his wall.

Moreover, legitimacy isn't an issue. They believe what they believe, and do what they do. They don't need our stamp of approval. And they won't change just because we ask them to. They won't change if we point guns at them and bomb them either. Well, they might turn to extremism. We can't look at them through the lense of our society. We have to understand them from their point of view, understand why they believe what they believe, why they do what they do. Relatively few people do this. I admit that I don't, or simply can't, too often.

Want to change them? Build schools and hospitals. Everything else, including security, comes second to those two priorities. That's why groups get support in Palestine, Lebanon, and Iraq-they build schools and hospitals faster than Israel/the Lebanese government/Civilian Provisional Authority do. In Lebanon, groups build schools and hospitals in warzones that were most certainly not secure. And they got support from the people for it.

Often, certain mosques are linked with certain hospitals and schools. Thus, clerics might teach their beliefs to students, and as there are no other schools to choose from, parents send their kids to school, where they are more or less preached to. Since the mosque, the school, and the hospital are more or less the same entity, they become synonomous.

People say "Cleric Bob is the only person around who will pay for a doctor to care for my ill son. If the doctor takes care of my son, I will like Cleric Bob." We have to provide more doctors than Cleric Bob does.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

thats it...just throw ya hands up. they believe what they believe, they do what they do. oh well, let em incite violence and destruction of the west. if we try to destroy them, it will only create more radicals....are you insane?

these people believe what they are told in mosques by clerics they believe know more than them. if the extremist clerics were not allowed to spread their hate in islamic mosques, they wouldnt be followed as blindly. as long as they are given legitimacy by preaching from an actual islamic mosque, the masses of sheep will follow their words as islam. cant you see that? as long as hate and violence is tied in with islam, the violence will continue to grow, and islam will be at fault. it is from their religious book that they get the words to hate, it is from islamic clerics speaking from islamic mosques that the masses are incited to do violence.

by the way, isnt inciting violence illegal? charles manson had a group of followers who took his word as god too. he incited them to kill, they did. ya know where he is...in prison for the rest of his life. he didnt kill anyone. just advocated it to people who listened to him.

lastly, why the hell should we try to learn their ways, and try to understand them. they are the ones creating the violence. it is the goal of radical islam to wipe out the west. to kill or convert every non-muslim. did we try to understand nazi germany? hell no, we fought it and destroyed it, because it was evil. and that is what needs to be done to radical islam.

[cut]

Yes but if you think about how the situation would be if you swapped the palestinans and Israelis, the palestinians would have an army and would not use suicide bombers.

Not true. The Sunni majority in Pakistan (which controls the army) ALSO launched several high-profile suicide bombings against the Shi'ite minority. It's a religion thing, not a "no other means" thing. They CHOOSE suicide bombing.

If suicide bombing was the easiest/last resort for poor folk, it'd be the most common form of war in Latin America. BUT IT ISN'T. And plenty of populations in Latin America are poorer and more desperate than Palestinians have ever been.

Yet there has NEVER, EVER been a suicide bomber in Latin America. Why? They're Catholic, not Muslim.

Having said that I don't think the israelis would have suicide bombers if the roles were switched but that may be because there are so few jews in the world and Israelis know this well, which is why they hurt so much if an israeli dies, but I wouldn't rule out french resistance style tactics.[/quote]

Want to see what happens when the roles are switched? Look at the 1948 War, when the Arabs were armed by the USSR and no government aided Israel. What did the Israelis do? The Haganah/IDF bought black-market weapons from Czechoslovakia, formed a highly-disciplined military, engaged Arab MILITARIES instead of targeting women and children, and they even cleaned up their own radicals (using lethal force against the Irgun when necessary).[/quote]

sorry I didn't respond earlier I missed this post, can you show me an article of suicide bombings by pakistanis I've never heard of it.

[Tane Angle]

In answer to your question, no, I am not insane. I have passed all my regular psych evals just fine. Same for my CAT scans. But thank you for your concern.

I am not just throwing my hands up.

Inciting violence is not illegal when the incident takes place outside the United States. And I'm not saying we should just sit back and watch them destroy us. If anything, I have said over and over on this message board that we have always been too soft on terrorism. Look at the Reagan thread in the Off-Topic section from just today. Our abandoning hostages and POWs is my ongoing rant on here. I'm surprised I haven't been asked to shut up about it yet, but I'm still not happy about it. Not just because we left people behind, but because it showed we were weak on terrorism. Maybe if we had actually acted once in a while, we could have nipped it in the bud.

I am not saying let's be passive and be killed, I'm saying let's give the people of third-world countries an alternative to extremism. In too many countries, there isn't much of one, except starvation.

Without understanding the nature of the threat, how do you propose to remove it? By using B-2s and MOABs?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[foxtrot023]

I agree wtih Tane in respect that most people that are well fed, have a house, a job and a decent living are no likely candidates to become terrorists (I think this is really the issue with palestinians, perhaps with economic development, they won`t turn to terrorism). the exception to the rule: AQ with Bin Laden (who is a millionaire) and the saudis that killed themselves in the 9/11 attacks who were middle class mostly.

In this case, how do we explain it? Do we label it a religious fanatics? If that is the case, what makes these guys, with a confortable life become human bombs (the so called ¨not so smart¨ bombs)? Is it the promise of getting laid in the afterlive so aluring? (as promised by radical clerics that if you die a martyr, scores of chicks will be with you in paradise, if so then perhaps the solution to islamic terrorism is to send them some hookers ;) )

just my thoughts

[Tane Angle]

First off, excellent point about the leadership of these groups. Rarely do they send their own children off to die, or do they blow themselves up. After all, the leadership has something to lose.

With those specific middle-class cases, it is a similar, but somewhat different problem. A main problem is that they would appear to feel disillusioned and disenfranchized. They lack a say in their governments. Now granted, that is only why they are susceptible to recruitment. That's not why they kill themselves. But once one is recruited, it doesn't matter what he or she believes.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[foxtrot023]

If only we could transmitt to the schmucks that become human bombs that their leaders are of the ¨do as I say, not as I do¨ variety, perhaps there wouldn`t be any more bombers.

It is a question of-

1. Somehow change the history of governments in that region (ME) to something that will allow more represantion
2. Decent standard of living in the region
3. Somehow get those terrorists laid so they don`t have to worry about how many chicks will wait for them in paradise

The most important one however is the standard of living (look at the gulf states).

Jsut another bunch of thoughts.

Good nite

[Seoulstriker]

I just wanna throw in the idea that Jihad is an inner struggle to which all obedient Muslims must follow. There are several degrees to the inner struggle (particularly related to non-Muslims and practicers of immorality) which range from ignoring and telling others to ignore and out-right protesting, to destroying property and ultimately killing the violator/whoever. The question is not whether Muslims follow Jihad, for all Muslims must follow Jihad as a tenet of their faith. The question is what degree of Jihad are the particular Muslims at in their personal struggle. Rather than referring to "Islamic Militants/Extremists", one should refer to those as "Muslims in the final degrees of Jihad."

Just some thoughts. Have a good one.

[Seoulstriker]

I just want to add to this that there are also 2 kinds of Jihad: outer and inner struggle. That's where you hear the "interpretation" of how Jihad is carried out by Muslims today.

[Tane Angle]

Excellent points, SS. There are different interpretations of the same lines, no?

[Truthsayer]

Ever read the Torrah? Bibel?

Passages against non-believers there too...if you choose to follow them, blame yourself, not the religion.

Oh , where , where , where ? Show me , show me .
I want to see it , please . You talled it , and now the burden of proove is on you . And by the way , i learned in religious school for 6 years , so you cannot fool me .
Where is it written in the Torah/Bibble , that there is passages on the "infidels" ?

Thruthsayer , again . You don't know **** , do you ?

I know that you have the eduacation-level of a nine-year old, but if you really want to spend your days reading the bibel for instance, there are some very interesting sites for you.

http://www.krysstal.com/contradi.html - just for the laughs.

Nice use of the words infidel. I take it you either choosed this words since the voices told you or to somehow make a hickup on this words later. Please note one thing: I never used the word infidel. How about you read my post again?


Other things to note:

In Judaism, their book the Hatanya, the Hassidic Habad movement says that all non-Jews are totally satanic creatures in "whom there is absolutely nothing good." The very existence of a non-Jew is "unessential," whereas all creation was created solely for the Jews. Since they too followed such intolerant teachings, they can hardly blame others for retaliation.

Many non-Jews and liberal Jews are unfamiliar with the essential racist, and discriminatory teachings of the fundamentalist or the ultra-orthodox Jews. But this is very evident for all to see in their present day actions toward Muslims whose religion also brands Jews as infidels.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/judaism.html

Does this mean liberal or even moderate jews would act upon this? No, ofcourse not.

But in many scriptures there is many exemplas that you _could_ follow (or empahis) if you really wanted to be 'supported' in your hunt to kill the 'non-believers'.

Infact, the very same things was done in Scandinavia - Christening by force. The 'choice' between being 'saved' (and converted) or being killed (and your dead body 'saved') was used widely. In part this development could be blaimed to the migration of norwegians to Iceland (and actually foring the remote and isolated country...away from the Christian norwegian King that sold out his countrymen.)

If you really went to school for so many years you should have picked a few things up.


Another link to read through could be: http://www.evilbible.com/
Not claiming it might be accurate (have read it all and anyone with deeper knowledge in correct translations of either the bibel or torrah could perhaps correct any mistakes they have) but it's kinda 'fun' nevertheless. Take it with a 'tounge-in-cheek' approach thou.


Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t “receive” the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33



Remember people: Think for yourself - don't ever let a book rule your life. Follow your heart and don't treat others as you don't want to be treated yourself.


I'm avaiting your appology.

[vikingblade]

christians of the past were certainly hardcore, so were the muslims.
however, that was then, this is now. i believe thats the point. modern cultures no longer take literally the violent, extreme, primitive parts of our religious books. we certainly do not preach them, advocate acting on them. and i say again, no western religion allows priests to incite violence against another race or religion. not in my lifetime. AND if they did, if a radical catholic priest got his local followers all worked up about the evil muslims, and advocated the killing and destruction of muslims, and those followers then went into an islamic neighborhood and blew up a mosque and killed a bunch of muslims, what do you think would happen????? ill tell ya what....an islamic outcry beyond anything you can imagine. every arab media network in the world would be yammering about the evil christian crusaders and church. they wouldnt give a **** if it was only one bad church or priest, never mind if it was 20 or 50 or 100. just one....they would label the catholic church as a whole, as muslim killers and call for a worldwide jihad against the infidals and destruction of the church. ANYONE DISAGREE WITH ME ON THIS??

but, what happens when we are attacked by an extremist offshoot of their religion, incited by respected islamic clerics preaching from islamic mosques.... we are supposed to understand them, not blame islam, they are poor, its only the minority of 5 billion muslims that want to wipe us from the planet, no big deal. gimme a break.

[Rebel 7]

ok, ive got a question for those who have experience with islam and muslims. who runs and controls this organized religion? who controls what goes on in the mosque? is it controlled by a set group of people who say what is allowed to be said and done in their church and in the name of their religion and god?

im from the usa, born and bred catholic. an organized religion, with a church and priest and a clearly defined hierarchy. with strict rules of what a priest in a church can and can not say or advocate in the name of god and church.

if a group of catholic priests started preaching about doing violence to muslims and calling for the destruction of islam, and the middle east, their asses would be pulled immediately. the church as an organization as well as its followers and media would never allow it.

so, if islam is about peace. if these muslim extremists are just a small percentage of the overall muslim population, what they preach is unacceptable and wrong to the peaceful majority of muslims, Why is it that the extremist scum are doing their recruiting and preaching from mosques?? how is this possible? why are they allowed to advocate and spread violence from a peaceful religions place of worship? am i missing something here? does this so called religion have any control over its churches? anyone can just say whatever they want?

anyone, please enlighten me, what am i missing? why is the islamic religion not directly responsible for the ouright support, recruiting and creation of a violent, radical islamic movement that advocates mass murder and terror against all non muslims?? these radical clerics are indeed preaching in islamic mosques right?? do they have a radical only mosque??

I am a Muslim and I'll give you my opinions and attempt to answer some of your questions.

The closest thing that Islam has to a priest is a Mullah (religoius teacher). The Mullah is not a special person, he is only a teacher. He has no authority, aside from teaching the religion.

Now, you must understand that these fanatics or extremists that you are talking about have killed more Muslims than they have any other group. Believe me, that is a fact. The embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania killed more Muslims than Americans or others. The Taliban and Al Qaida killed more Afghans in their six year reign in Afghanistan than they killled Americans or others. The same fanatics are a bigger problem for the Muslim community than anyone else. We have dealt with them for many years, but our struggle against these lunatics have gone silently across the Western media. Example, Ahmad Shah Massoud was fighting chechen terrorists in Afghanistan, Pakistani terrorists, Arab terrorists, as well as Chinese, Indonesian, Morrocan, etc. Yet, how often was Massoud's struggle against these fanatics given the media attention it deserved. I mean most American's don't even know that it was Massoud fighting against the Taliban long before Sept. 11.

What you must realize is that these terrorists emerged in great numbers during the Soviet-Afghan war. To counter the Soviets, the US (believe it or not) along with Pakistan began to realize that religion could be used to motivate the fighters and give them more determination to fight and die. At the time, the CIA and Pentagon were not aware of how greatly this would affect them later on when the guns of these fighters turned away from the Soviets and towards the US. Thus, Pakistan began to open more madrassas (religious schools) and began brainwashing both their population and Afghan refugee children into thinking that if they killed an enemy they would be granted paradise. The children were taught to think that this life was not worth living and that dying as a martyr was the greatest thing. Little did they know that they were going into their own graves fighting not for religion but for the politics of another country (namely Pakistan). After the Soviets withdrew, the US lost all interest in Afghanistan and left the nation to destroy itself. During this time, Pakistan continued to keep the madrassas open to send more fighters into Afghanistan to fight Massoud and his army since Pakistan wanted Gulbudeen (a Paki puppet) in power. The Taliban were formed and during the love affair between Al Qaida and the Taliban, bin Laden realized that the same tactic used against the Soviets could now be used against the US, which was to brainwash people and incite hatred towards the Americans so that once again his followers could fight with determination and die without regret. This is a technique used to make people into suicide bombers and it worked well during the Soviet-Afghan war, that bin Laden made use of it against the Americans. Today, what you see in Muslim countries is NOT religion at work but politics under the name of religion. That way, the nation can pursue its political agenda under the guise of religion, so that their actions look like its advocated by the religion which means that people of that religion are less likely to criticize the government's actions.

The problem is not Islam, the problem is nations like Pakistan, Iran, etc. that are run by corrupt people who pretend to be believers of Islam, and who openly support and allow Mullahs of the country to teach hate in their mosques so that the nation's population can be more supportive of their governments stance against America or of their governments wrongful political actions.

I hope that clarified some of your concerns....

[Rebel 7]

People have to understand that using religion for poltical purposes is not a new tactic. Those who want to truly know what Islam is should look into the Quran, not the actions of some lunatics.

[vikingblade]

Rebel 7.... very good post. thank you. very enlightening. ive read about most of it before, and i recognise Massoud in your avatar. he was a good man and leader. im afraid we will be dealing with the cia blowback of the afghan/soviet war for a long time. we shouldnt have left then. such is politics.

i still have a question though.... if these extremists kill muslims as well, which they do, why then do muslims who are not radical, allow mullahs and clerics to teach and preach these ideas from islamic mosques. if, as you say, they do not represent islam, why are they supported by large amounts of the muslim community?

as i said before......

if islam is about peace. if these muslim extremists are just a small percentage of the overall muslim population, what they preach is unacceptable and wrong to the peaceful majority of muslims, Why is it that the extremist scum are doing their recruiting and preaching from mosques?? how is this possible? why are they allowed to advocate and spread violence from a peaceful religions place of worship? does islam have any control over its mosques and mullahs? anyone can just say whatever they want from a mosque and call it islam??

[Rebel 7]

Rebel 7.... very good post. thank you. very enlightening. ive read about most of it before, and i recognise Massoud in your avatar. he was a good man and leader. im afraid we will be dealing with the cia blowback of the afghan/soviet war for a long time. we shouldnt have left then. such is politics.

i still have a question though.... if these extremists kill muslims as well, which they do, why then do muslims who are not radical, allow mullahs and clerics to teach and preach these ideas from islamic mosques. if, as you say, they do not represent islam, why are they supported by large amounts of the muslim community?

as i said before......

if islam is about peace. if these muslim extremists are just a small percentage of the overall muslim population, what they preach is unacceptable and wrong to the peaceful majority of muslims, Why is it that the extremist scum are doing their recruiting and preaching from mosques?? how is this possible? why are they allowed to advocate and spread violence from a peaceful religions place of worship? does islam have any control over its mosques and mullahs? anyone can just say whatever they want from a mosque and call it islam??


i still have a question though.... if these extremists kill muslims as well, which they do, why then do muslims who are not radical, allow mullahs and clerics to teach and preach these ideas from islamic mosques. if, as you say, they do not represent islam, why are they supported by large amounts of the muslim community?

Its a chain reaction type of situation. For example, the Pakistani government opened up madrassas to teach hate and violence during the 80s so that the could send hardened fighters to the front lines and use these fighters to pursue their own political agenda. The effects of 20+ years of being taught hate, violence, and intolerance, upon the population is difficult to reverse. Most of these people have no clue to what Islam says about violence, but because they have so much hate inside them, they use religion as a tool to justify what they do. Now take the Pakistan example and multiple that by like all the Arab countries, countries like Iran, Morroco, etc. and you have one major problem at hand. The sad fact is that the moderate Muslims have been weak to counter this because frankly they don't have the power that governments like Pakistan, Iran have. The way to solve this problem is to replace the fanatics in the governments and eventually the madrassas and mosques will be reformed since the fanatics no longer are in power to say how the religious institutions should be run. Again, it all starts from the root, which is the government.

[Tengu]

Well i'm a little late here but here it goes.

We have professors who studied the islam and say it is an evil religion, you can compare it with the nazi's and wearing a headscarf is like wearing a swastika (rejection civilization).

Saiz it all.

[weedman]

I think the Islam is a quite interesting religion - I'm talking about the real Islam, not that abused one of fundamentalism.

Many of my friends are muslims and I also visited their mosque several times.

But sometimes it is really hard to sustain when some illiterate guys start to offend them for things that have nearly no link to their religious roots. :(

[vikingblade]

sadly, the reality is that the large majority of the worlds terrorists are muslim. the most unstable, violent, cruel, inhumane countries in the world are muslim governed countries.

misguided as these radical islamic groups are, they are still all highly motivated by the qur'an and the words of muhammad.

[weedman]

motivated by the qur'anmotivated by an interpretation of the qur'an which is out of date.

There are some really progressive interpretations nowadays, unfortunately, they were rejected by a great majority of Muslims.

[Javehn]

I posted a PM to Truthsayer . I think he would like his answers , sence he don't have a clue , and he yet arguing . I don't protecting any religion , but i refuse the big mouth over here to get away from it .

So , now , as you said it yourself , i am wating for appologise .
If someone wants , i can post my PM to him over here .

[IDFM203]

So , now , as you said it yourself , i am wating for appologise .
If someone wants , i can post my PM to him over here .

Hey man I want :D , I mean why don’t post your response here, I mean he kind of asked for it and well he should get it and publicly p-) :D

Secondly on other things, its absurd that he is asking for an apology, I mean where is ours from him after he photoshoped a picture from his sig and lied about who was there, and then he has the gull and audacity to ride on his BS high horse and lecture others on how this forum is or ask for an apology :roll: ……what a hypocrite!! :roll:

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Ok , i sent it as a PM to him , but never the less , here is the transcript . I will change a few little things there .


_____________________________________________________________
PM to Truthsayer : Hello
_____________________________________________________________

I see you decided to engage me .It's also nice that you are accusing me of not answering you , because i am too "stupid" , as you say . I didn't saw it , but now that you mentioned it , no problem . As i said before , you are the one who engages in debate without any knowledge , not me . Better then for me . So , let's start .



I know that you have the eduacation-level of a nine-year old, but if you really want to spend your days reading the bibel for instance, there are some very interesting sites for you.

My education : I am ---------- --- ----------- -------- , and now i am studying for additional degree . I don't need to spend my days studying bible , because unlike you , who really likes to engage in debate without really knowing the matter (and uses Internet sites to proove his point) , i know what i am talking about - personally . So now , please share your life "Wisdom" , it seams that in your past 30 age , you collected some small life experience . But still you consider yourself higher then everybody .

It's also Bible , not Bibel .



http://www.krysstal.com/contradi.html - just for the laughs.

Let's laugh , haha . The site is irrelevant to our point . I asked you to show the passages against non bellievers . You bringing me the contradiction in Bible . What's your point ? The point would be valid , if i said that i am following the bellieves of the book . I am not , but i do have respect for it , and i learned it . My point was , that the Byble don't dictate passages against non bellievers in a harsh manner , as you said . Another point for you - every time when Tora is speaking about Non bellievers , it's meaning Jews , and only them . Not any other nation , and only Jews , that decided to forsake religion .

But if you insist , let me disproove you the first sentence from that "site" :
God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind: and God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"
Gen 1:25,26
(man made after the beasts)
AGAINST
And the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam ... but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Gen 2:18-20

The sentence - It is not good that the man should be alone - reffers to the fact that the god created the woman Eve , and not to the fact that he created animals . I am not shure why they confused it on this site , because it was said many times (Even in Mishna and Gmara , which offcorse , you have no clue what the hell it is all about ) , this sentence reffers to the creation of WOMAN , and not animals . If they would be kind enough to continue quoting the same chapter several lines after - they would reveal that G-d said not good for the man be alone , after he created the animals and saw , that they are not enough to make the Adam not to be lonely . And that's why he said - "I will make him an help meet for him " . It was said clear , that fishes were created on 5 day , animals on 6 day , and Adam ws created after them , in the end . The translation to Aramic , then later to Romic and English messed it up , it's seen cleat on Hebrew source .
It's clear that the site don't understand the meaning of Tora, It's only want's to show how non-true it is , and so , it is descredit by me as any possible source of information . By the way , you offcorse don't know , but the Tora alone don't go with nothing , there are explaining for it (it was oral explaining up until 100 B.C.) , that were put down in writting on aprox 100 years B.C. by Jewish wisemen , because they fear it will be forgotten . It's called Mishna , later the intepritation of it called Gmara or Talmud wich is divised to 2 parts .

Complicated , no ? Made you dizzy ?



Nice use of the words infidel. I take it you either choosed this words since the voices told you or to somehow make a hickup on this words later. Please note one thing: I never used the word infidel. How about you read my post again?

Later that day i run the word infidel in some online translator . And guess what ?? Infidelis what i ment . No voices talked to me or made me hick up the word . Because you missed some point , and that is : Torah don't talk about non-bellievers . Torah talks only about Infidels - that's Jews that bellieved Torah , and because of some reason turned their back on religion . There is not one verdict in Torah about people who don't bellieve at all , and people from non Jewish religion . In this context , it's only talking about Jews that walk back from things they bellieved before .You will not find many topics in "Veikra" (4 book from Genesis) , that talks about non - Jews , except the fact , what they should do if they want to become Jews , and that's it . The only discrimination towards non-Jews is , that they are not allowed to learn and follow Jewish rules (sort od Druze bellieve style) , and that's not exactly the matterial you were looking for , don't you ?
And here is what it really says :
"םכותב יתנכשו שדקמ יל ושעו"
(ח ה"כ)
,השמ עזעדזנ ,שדקמ יל ושעו השמל ה"בקה רמאש העשב"
,ביתכ אלהו ,ה"בקהל תיב תושעל םדאה לוכי ךיא רמאו
אל ,ה"בקה ול רמא .ךולכלכי אל םימשה ימשו םימשה הנה
פ"ע) "'וכו םחוכ יפל אלא שקבמ ינא יחוכ יפל
.('ג ב"י ר"דמב

That means , that every man should worship god as much as he can . Tora also says that non Jews only have to perform 7 Noah followings , to get to heaven . People like Mother Terreza for instant shurely is going to heaven .



Other things to note:
Quote:
In Judaism, their book the Hatanya, the Hassidic Habad movement says that all non-Jews are totally satanic creatures in "whom there is absolutely nothing good." The very existence of a non-Jew is "unessential," whereas all creation was created solely for the Jews. Since they too followed such intolerant teachings, they can hardly blame others for retaliation.

Many non-Jews and liberal Jews are unfamiliar with the essential racist, and discriminatory teachings of the fundamentalist or the ultra-orthodox Jews. But this is very evident for all to see in their present day actions toward Muslims whose religion also brands Jews as infidels.


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/judaism.html

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ~!!!!!!!!!!

You know what is sooooooo funny ???? Because - the book of Tanya written on Arameic language , and how to tell you this .... Not many people speaking , and reading this language (Infact , only religious Jews have the ability to read the language , and only Habad movement learns this book . Only them ) . So , i have very serious doubts for this source . It somehow fails to show the location of that quote -In Judaism, their book the Hatanya, the Hassidic Habad movement says that all non-Jews are totally satanic creatures -WAWWW !!!!!

And by the way , guess what , i did happend to learn it .
So , here is it - Guess what ? I have the book of Tanya in my house ! I learned it ! Oops , sorry , you don't have this book , do you ? You think you are smartest person here ...

And the closest thing , that was said on that bull**** site is :

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/tanya.jpg
I marked in green . It says that every Jew , no matter how much he follows Tora and the law of it , he shouldn't consider himself as "Tsadik" , that means holly man , but far from it . We (Jews) even have famous saying - We bellieve in guilt , not forgiveness . That what it's talking about . Only about Jews . It's also talking that the Jews have one extra soul , regular and Jewish soul , while non Jews have one regular soul . AND THAT'S IT !!!! NO MORE TANYA TALKS ABOUT ANY MATTER CLOSE IT .
YEA, NOT NICE TO ARGUE WITH PEOPLE WHO KNOW what they are talking about , unlike you ?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/judaism.html - so , this site is totaly full of **** . I learned about proffesor Max Puller , and he only reffers to written Bible as it , while there are books of interpritation of it , which he hardly mentions (and the fiction of Tanya book ) . Doctor Moshe Grannot , and Proffesor Max Geller have much more powerfull insight on the books , and far more stronger points , then Max Puller , who seems to have no insight of the Torah books and interpritations .

The rest of your post talking about New byble , which i am sorry to inform you , that's not exactly the book i will protect, thought i learned those books also . Let's say i am not a belliever , but i am not dismissing everything before i know it , like you do .



I'm avaiting your appology.

So , as you delicatly sayed yourself , i am the one know waiting for appology . Truthsayer , you had bad habbit of teaching people , when infact you have nothing to teach them about . I am waiting an answer for my first question- your life experience . What i wrote is only tip of the Iceberg , as you can understand , i tried to make this post as short as possible , and contradict only what you wrote .

Greatings , Javehn
_____________________________________________________________


_________________________________________________________________________________

Pushing Truthsayer from God's right shoulder .

[Javehn]

So , the picture from Najaf university display from Sahem at 2002 , which Truthsayer so desperatly tried to proove us it's valid (you shure know to pick up your fights , Truthsayer. Why don't you go teach the pop some Ivangelies ? ;) Sounds like you . ) , and this one , that's strike 2 .



I am waiting for appologies

And you also have good sence of humor . Now , do i get mine , or you will follow your nick ?

_______________________________________________________________________
Pushing Truthsayer from God's right shoulder

[Saranof]

*edit* Rebel7 said everything I ever wanted to, good post man.
Any religions are evil if you use them for your own profit.
Interesting to hear from a muslim here. You hear a lot of bs against muslims, arabs, and so here. Don't think too many of us know what Islam is about. One main problem is that the only time many people hear about Islam is on the news, when some group branded as muslim extremists blow something up.
Shame.

[One?]

I just wanna throw in the idea that Jihad is an inner struggle to which all obedient Muslims must follow. There are several degrees to the inner struggle (particularly related to non-Muslims and practicers of immorality) which range from ignoring and telling others to ignore and out-right protesting, to destroying property and ultimately killing the violator/whoever. The question is not whether Muslims follow Jihad, for all Muslims must follow Jihad as a tenet of their faith. The question is what degree of Jihad are the particular Muslims at in their personal struggle. Rather than referring to "Islamic Militants/Extremists", one should refer to those as "Muslims in the final degrees of Jihad."

Just some thoughts. Have a good one.

how did I overlook this thread...

Anyways just like you said the inner struggle is to learn, educate etc.. Thats what muslims were mostly involved in when theur empire spread from spain to asia. The other form of Jihad is the fighting part. THe word jihad comes from ijtihad. Which means learning.

I can sit here for days and argue, but i wont. Most of you don't know what Islam is and don't want to accept the fact that islam does not preach the killing of americans. Instead of fighting about religions go have ***...

[UkrainianAmerican]

Javehn has just MASSIVELY pwned liesayer.
I think wikipedia.com should add a link to this page of the thread, under the definition of PWNed.
Thats how its done, boys and girls (and a particular few who are not sure to which category they, or their partners belong)

[Javehn]

Well , then i might as well add this . The last PM i sent to Liesayer .

Here it goes :
____________________________________________________________________

PM TO TRUTHSAYER :

Remember the "Othentic picture" when Jewish boy puts a gun on Palestinian boy head ? Remember how honnestly you tried to convince other and me , that it's othentic . You did another mistake . You know which one ? I was there .

I found today by mistake another 2 pictures from Najaf university exhibit . Here they are , sorry they are kinda small .

http://www.nfc.co.il/UploadImages/4567834735.jpg
This is simulation of beating up Palestinians . "Simulation" , you know what that means , right ?

http://www.nfc.co.il/UploadImages/8328363300.jpg
Same as above .

http://www.nfc.co.il/uploadimages/kgSaLy.jpg
And here is the picture of every year terror convention in Najaf university .

You really think you are the smartest man on the plannet ? Listen , before you will answer on this PM , i sent you another one before , i hope you would like it . Read the previous PM . I was also asked to post it on public , so i did it on that exact thread you challenged me .

Yes , payback is a biach ? Then don't talk bull**** on the first place .
[end PM]
_______________________________________________________________________

Well , now you can add this to WIKIpedia :P



_____________________________________________________________________________
Kicking Truthsayer out of God's right shoulder

[786mine]

To vikingblade:

From all of your posts, I've noticed that no matter what responce you get regarding Muslims and Islam, you have made up your mind to talk s**t. :bash: It is fundametal people like you and the fanatics all over the world who give Islam a bad name.

Regarding your question, In the Mosque the Qur'an and the Sunnah [the way and life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH] are used as role models. Each mosque has a "Mulla", and Islamic version of peace. Each Friday, he picks about a topic and talks and teachs the woshipers about Islam and what the Prophet would have done. I admit there are some fanatic Mullas, they are only in minority but since the media just picks up on the bad things and not the good things, it is presented that ALL the mullas teach and preach death to all non-Muslims, which is NOT the case. Each religion has its own way of doing things, and we all must understand and respect their way of doing things. What works for them may not work for us. But that is they way the world goes. To give you an example, the Mormons are thought to be evil etc, and it is widely believed that all practice polygamy, which again is not true. But to me my friend, it seems that you have made up your mind to keep making a fool out of your self. Remember, talk is cheap. ;)

[786mine]

Its a chain reaction type of situation. For example, the Pakistani government opened up madrassas to teach hate and violence during the 80s so that the could send hardened fighters to the front lines and use these fighters to pursue their own political agenda. The effects of 20+ years of being taught hate, violence, and intolerance, upon the population is difficult to reverse. Most of these people have no clue to what Islam says about violence, but because they have so much hate inside them, they use religion as a tool to justify what they do. Now take the Pakistan example and multiple that by like all the Arab countries, countries like Iran, Morroco, etc. and you have one major problem at hand. The sad fact is that the moderate Muslims have been weak to counter this because frankly they don't have the power that governments like Pakistan, Iran have. The way to solve this problem is to replace the fanatics in the governments and eventually the madrassas and mosques will be reformed since the fanatics no longer are in power to say how the religious institutions should be run. Again, it all starts from the root, which is the government.

Rebel 7: Your posts were good, but I have to correct you on Pakistan. The Pakistani government has ALWAYS helped Afghanistan, and for what I might ask? Nothing more than crap from the the Afghani. The Afghani are strange, they talk **** about Pakistan but when the Pakistani government asks them to go back to THEIR country, they don't want to leave Pakistan. No mister, you want to talk about facts, and you say its countries like Pakistan should not get involved in other coutries business. But wasn't it your Prime Minister in the 60's who wanted to cause civil unrest in NWFP and pushed for the creation of "Pakhtunistan." If the Afghanis don't like Pakistan so much, they don't they just pack up their bags and leave Pakistan? If it were not for Pakistan, Afghanista would not have any sea access, its because of Pakistan that Afghanistan gets its food. You sure do have double standards. I don't see any difference between you and the "believers" who wish death upon the US but would do almost everything to get a green card. Have a nice day. :D

[SeanAshi]

The Pakistani government has ALWAYS helped Afghanistan
Pervez Musharraf has been one hell of an allie for the US, I don't know about his amnesty deal to terrorist recently maybe a trick, but no one came forward, so its time for the Pakistani army to go back in Waristan or whatever the hell its called and start kicking ass.

[Commie]

Hi, just would like to say that this will be my first post on this forum. I have been browsing around this forum for a half year now, reading and looking but this one got me pretty outraged so i felt i had to respond.

I mean.
First of all Islam is the second largest religion on earth with around
2,000,000,000 followers.

Among every four humans in the world, one of them is Muslim. Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion. By comparison, Christians have increased by only 47 percent, Hinduism, 117 percent, and Buddhism by 63 percent. Islam is the second largest religious group in France, Great Britain and USA (Muslims in USA are 10 millions and Jews are 6 millions).

http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm
(Don't know how exact this is.)

If Islam really is this evil and westernhating religion we must be into some really deep ****! Since every fourth person you see on the streets is one! Second of all to say that Islam and muslims in general do hate and despise all human rights stink racism all the way down to the Third Reich.

Talk about generalisation!

Of course this religion has fanatic believers and followers but please do name one religion, one idealogy or philosphy that doesn't. I bet you can find several millions of catholic people in United States or Europa that have much worse beliefs than your average muslim.

If you know your history (and history does matter) especially when looking on middle east. Most of the states in the mid-east is newly formed because they people who has been living in these lands has been opressed by colonial oppressors like france, england, turkey etc... for decades. How does this count as a factor, first of all mostly all new formed states come up as a totalitarian state more or less then it's followed by some kind of revolution. And to form some kind of goverment in mid-east is extremely hard since the mid-east has an extreme complexity by folk groups and religions and sub religions all with a different political agenda. To name out Islam as the sole burden for the failure of a democratic uprising in these lands get me so mad i don't even know where to start.

Islam is a dynamic and complex and even democratic religion that i think we should embrace, yes hear me out. Every mosque is run by a different Imam who teaches his values and discuss them with his apprentices. Every mosque has a function to learn out the teachings of Islam and to function as forum ( much like this one.) In countries that are run by totalitarian leadership this is most likely the only way to commune with other people and criticise your goverment and later act upon it. Sure there are mosques that are run by hard-liners and Islam conservatists but that can we find in any democratic country as well. The mosques functions as a means of discussion of ideas. So to shoot at these mosque can also be away to interp that we dont want them to do this (freedom of speech?). Almost every demonstration that is held in Iraq has been started from a mosque. A demonstration, hmm, a form of democratic statement or the orders from a mad terrorist telling his terrorists to go and wreak havoc. Instead of just come with outrageous accusations of Western hating muslims we should take our time to learn about Islam so we know more about the muslim world.

I believe that if the muslim world ever are going to experience the wonderful blessings of democratic leadership in governing form it will come through the forums that are called mosques. That's why we can't go arresting clerics just because they have some kind of opinion that we don't like. In a western country these people would have been called political prisoners.

So please stop with the "anti-muslim" bashing!
Since none of the "anti-american" "anti-israel" "anti-war" and "anti-GOP" bashing is allowed on this forum.

[obd]

Wow Truthsayer, very good posts throughout this forum....You know, its about time people started realizing that all religion, including Christianity, and all books of worship, including the bible, say and teach intolerance in one manner or another.........and at the same time preach tolerance.......It is simply the result of thousands of years of the man made institution of religion evolving to meet the needs of the people be it a sense of purpose in life, a sense of superiority over others, a sense of belonging to a group of people, a sense of having sacred code of morality, a sense of peace of mind about certain unaswerable questions in life (such as death) etc etc etc........

Think about it: Religion basically professes to answer some of lifes most daunting questions such as: Why are we here? What happens after we die? How should I live my life? etc etc etc...........Basically religion allows people to cease to question in many ways and to just accept "the truth".....it provides comfort to those who cant stand to honestly say "I dont know the answers".

Think of the concept of faith and how it is stressed in so many of the vastly different religions of the world: Faith is basically blind belief in something..... To say "I have faith" is essentially an act of will to believe in what cant be seen and/or experienced..........but of course some religions such as certain strains of Christianity profess the power of faith while at the same time promissing "proof" of Gods existence which essentially negates faith.... Its hypocritcal but also necesarry to gain adherents to that particular form of societal organization..........

If one were to talk to an evangelical reborn Christian, he/she would tell you that they accepted Jesus into thier lives and that belief in god is not enough.... jesus is the only way to God and there is no other way.... Thus even those who believe in the one god of the bible are not truly connected to "him"...........so yet again christians claim to have the only real and true connection to god via jesus and the holly ghost and by jesus being accepted into thier hearts............They will also likely tell you that they "know" and have "proof" of jesus and thier spiritual connection to god because god "answered" thier prayers....... While most evangelical Christian profess to be "tolerant" of other forms of belief they will tell you in the very next sentence and with great confidence that others are going to hell and do not have a "real" connection with god........ Of course, this type of belief system lends itself to times of acceptance and tolerance but also to times of violence and oppression and conversion "by the sword". Essentially, they can have thier cake and eat it too.

Of course, it is impossible to argue that with someone who professes to have "met" jesus in thier hearts just as it is impossible to argue with someone who professes to have met the tooth fairy after they accepted her into thier hearts.........

I was speaking to an evangelical reborn from work and found his beliefs highly interesting, very frightening, and entertaining at the same time: According to him, one who has accepted jesus christ into thier hearts is garunteed into heaven no matter thier deeds essentially but one who does acts of good and even lives by the laws of the bible without accepting Jesus will burn in hell.......... So basically, it gives the "ok" for the jesus accepting to do with as they please in thier lives and be promised heaven.....quite an attractive deal if you ask me: You get to be one of the few in this world with a true connection to God, you get to do as you wish and still go to heaven, and you dont have to go to Church because its not about organization but it IS about personal connection to jesus........Almost as attractive a deal as 70 virgins in paradise for killing someone attackign the faith heheheh, although I wonder what Christians were promised during the Crusades............

Of course, most all religions have some variety or another of this ideology because it has been proven to work and to gain people........and it can survive and provide impetus for war, pillage, genocide, etc yet also still continue afterwards during times of reconciliation etc........I find it fascinating that religion is so ambigious and maliable in that regard..how easily societies can take any waction they want such as war, murder, robbery, etc and defend it in some way with some passage from the Koran, Bible, etc....yet then use those same books to defend tolerance when it suits the needs of the society...and how people can accept (I guess through faith) all these contradictions and such.............

Throughout history, one can follow the ever changing ideology of the man made institution of religion as it adapts to ever changing societies...........Today, Christianity in one area of the world can be as different from Christianity in another as Hinduism is from Janism or even animism...........

islam also is subject to the influence and change from different societies as the adopt what they wish and ignore or even throw out what doesnt suit them..........Its all the same to me....... People are people really and they will meet thier needs in life in whatever way they can.......

Religion is responsible for so much evil and suffering in this world yet it has also aided our soicities in functioning and it has provided a bullworlk for law and the ordering of society.......... ... Sometimes I find myself hating the man made institution of religion for the death, destruction, intolerance, ignorance, etc it spreads throughout the world yet other days I realize it is not religion but man himself that is to blame and if man did not have religion to justify genocide, war, murder rape, robbery, invasion, torture, etc etc etc, he would simply find something else..........

Its a good thing most poeple in this world respect eachother!!!!!!!!!!!! Its only the few nutbags that ruin it all for the rest of us with thier ingnorance, intolerance, bigotry etc etc etc and I will be the first to say I have my own internal battles with such things...............

[786mine]

The Pakistani government has ALWAYS helped Afghanistan
Pervez Musharraf has been one hell of an allie for the US, I don't know about his amnesty deal to terrorist recently maybe a trick, but no one came forward, so its time for the Pakistani army to go back in Waristan or whatever the hell its called and start kicking ass.

I agree with you. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Afghanistan or the Afghani people, but they are not doing any good to Pakistan, the Pakistani need to kick some ass.

Going beyond the topic, I think that the Pakistani government should accept Israel as a state. Forget past grievences. And get rid of these fanatic Mullas once and for all.

[786mine]

Hi, just would like to say that this will be my first post on this forum. I have been browsing around this forum for a half year now, reading and looking but this one got me pretty outraged so i felt i had to respond.

I mean.
First of all Islam is the second largest religion on earth with around
2,000,000,000 followers.

Among every four humans in the world, one of them is Muslim. Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion. By comparison, Christians have increased by only 47 percent, Hinduism, 117 percent, and Buddhism by 63 percent. Islam is the second largest religious group in France, Great Britain and USA (Muslims in USA are 10 millions and Jews are 6 millions).

http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm
(Don't know how exact this is.)

If Islam really is this evil and westernhating religion we must be into some really deep ****! Since every fourth person you see on the streets is one! Second of all to say that Islam and muslims in general do hate and despise all human rights stink racism all the way down to the Third Reich.

Talk about generalisation!

Of course this religion has fanatic believers and followers but please do name one religion, one idealogy or philosphy that doesn't. I bet you can find several millions of catholic people in United States or Europa that have much worse beliefs than your average muslim.

If you know your history (and history does matter) especially when looking on middle east. Most of the states in the mid-east is newly formed because they people who has been living in these lands has been opressed by colonial oppressors like france, england, turkey etc... for decades. How does this count as a factor, first of all mostly all new formed states come up as a totalitarian state more or less then it's followed by some kind of revolution. And to form some kind of goverment in mid-east is extremely hard since the mid-east has an extreme complexity by folk groups and religions and sub religions all with a different political agenda. To name out Islam as the sole burden for the failure of a democratic uprising in these lands get me so mad i don't even know where to start.

Islam is a dynamic and complex and even democratic religion that i think we should embrace, yes hear me out. Every mosque is run by a different Imam who teaches his values and discuss them with his apprentices. Every mosque has a function to learn out the teachings of Islam and to function as forum ( much like this one.) In countries that are run by totalitarian leadership this is most likely the only way to commune with other people and criticise your goverment and later act upon it. Sure there are mosques that are run by hard-liners and Islam conservatists but that can we find in any democratic country as well. The mosques functions as a means of discussion of ideas. So to shoot at these mosque can also be away to interp that we dont want them to do this (freedom of speech?). Almost every demonstration that is held in Iraq has been started from a mosque. A demonstration, hmm, a form of democratic statement or the orders from a mad terrorist telling his terrorists to go and wreak havoc. Instead of just come with outrageous accusations of Western hating muslims we should take our time to learn about Islam so we know more about the muslim world.

I believe that if the muslim world ever are going to experience the wonderful blessings of democratic leadership in governing form it will come through the forums that are called mosques. That's why we can't go arresting clerics just because they have some kind of opinion that we don't like. In a western country these people would have been called political prisoners.

So please stop with the "anti-muslim" bashing!
Since none of the "anti-american" "anti-israel" "anti-war" and "anti-GOP" bashing is allowed on this forum.

Thank you Commie. That was an excellent post. I've been visiting this foroum for over 4 months now, but this post made me feel out raged aswell. "So please stop with the "anti-muslim" bashing!" :P

[Jack Mehoff]

I just wanna throw in the idea that Jihad is an inner struggle to which all obedient Muslims must follow. There are several degrees to the inner struggle (particularly related to non-Muslims and practicers of immorality) which range from ignoring and telling others to ignore and out-right protesting, to destroying property and ultimately killing the violator/whoever. The question is not whether Muslims follow Jihad, for all Muslims must follow Jihad as a tenet of their faith. The question is what degree of Jihad are the particular Muslims at in their personal struggle. Rather than referring to "Islamic Militants/Extremists", one should refer to those as "Muslims in the final degrees of Jihad."

Just some thoughts. Have a good one.

how did I overlook this thread...

Anyways just like you said the inner struggle is to learn, educate etc.. Thats what muslims were mostly involved in when theur empire spread from spain to asia. The other form of Jihad is the fighting part. THe word jihad comes from ijtihad. Which means learning.

I can sit here for days and argue, but i wont. Most of you don't know what Islam is and don't want to accept the fact that islam does not preach the killing of americans. Instead of fighting about religions go have ***...


rofl rofl
You are teh funneh. Aren't you the same guy who labeled the entire U.S. Army, American government and America because SIX U.S. soldiers commited a crime that is unacceptable in U.S. military? Using your own logic, why can't I label Islam because 18 muslim nutcase murdered 3,000 innocent people?

Yeah, we called that generalization.

Most of you don't know what U.S. military is and don't want to accept the fact that U.S. military does not preach the torture of POWs.

[Truthsayer]

Javehn>> I feel sorry for you. You completely lack any reading-comprehension.

You claim that the bible (and the torrah, but I've read the bible far more so it's more of 'my' area) doesn't have any passages against non-believers.

This is ocourse a lot of horse-****, but this is the only kind of posts you seem to be able to produce.

I think it's wonderfull that you would ever try to counter-argument the fact that the bible isn't only a peacefull religion, and that it never preaches about killing others.

Only goes to show that you really can see whatever you want if you have an agenda.

I'm gonna type this slow, so you might be able to read it (...): The bible, torrah and koran all have one thing in common: they preach the 'only' belief. They don't accept other beliefs. Their beliefs are told to be the only one and that going against this (can!) be a base for punishing the 'wrong-doers'.

Perhaps in your twisted world the crusades never happened either.


Shouldn't there be a MOD monitoring this thread yet?
No, I'm sorry, only attacks against 'some' groups are forbidden. My bad.

[IDFM203]

I think your response or rather your lack of reponse to Javehns points clearly says all I need to see about how much you know on this subject :roll:

I could go on but since Javhen is doing a great job I will let him respond to your non-response.

(Anyways as a personal rule, my religion is to try to avoid debates on religion for when it gets into a belief system well it’s a very hard debate to argue for or against ;) )

but I will address a few lines of yours.


Only goes to show that you really can see whatever you want if you have an agenda.

.ahh classic wording by your type :roll: ....yeah when Jews say anything its an agenda but when you say its merely an opinion? :roll:


Shouldn't there be a MOD monitoring this thread yet? and you have the gull to put yourself in a place to ask for monitoring as if YOU yourself don’t deserve that treatment :roll: ...gees and the hypocrisy continues.

Secondly I repeat (though I amended a few words) "its absurd that you are asking for an apology, I mean where is ours from him after he photoshoped a picture from his sig and lied about who was there, and then he has the gull and audacity to ride on his BS high horse and lecture others on how this forum is or ask for an apology :roll: ……what a hypocrite!! :roll:”



No, I'm sorry, only attacks against 'some' groups are forbidden. My bad. oh cut out the BS, we take more crap that goes unanswered then most here!!


I have seen you (or a few other selected individuals) make this false charge here before and its simply false, tons of **** that is said against us goes unanswered and people get away with it so spare me your BS tears over your supposed disgust of how attacks against us are forbidden but attacks against others are not….that’s simply not true.


You see the problem is that I see you whine and moan about things and you ride on this high horse (or as you call it on god's right shoulder :roll: ) but yet YOU yourself are as guilty in many threads of the same types of prejudice and lie’s against one group as you protest when others act like you do against the groups you have your sympathies for.

Shalom :D

[born_to_kill]

Ok not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim ( now at least)


Muslims are good people, only about 20 percent is bad..

But 20 percent of 1.4 billion is a ****load of people.

[Truthsayer]

IDFM203>> Nice to see that your only job here is to spread lies.

Yes, I have an agenda: The inform everyone that ALL MODERN RELIGIONS HAVE **** IN THEIR BACKGROUND AND CAN BE MISUSED.

To bad none of you understand this. You rather post racist crap about muslims being terrorists - when infact in these cases the terrorists are being muslims - GET THE POINT?

And yet again you lie about the picture: I never claimed it was real, I claimed you couldn't prove it wasn't. Remeber: You came to me and said it was - so the burden of proof is on you.

It was posted on ******.com and the americans on the site said it was real, and was having a blast about it. I.e. - laughing about how afraid the kid looked and how much 'owned' he was. But yet again, you choose to make up your own history.

I guess this is how it works with you, you take one thing in hickups on it for some thousend years...

If you hade any proof that the translated bible we get here is false and faked and that the bible never teaches anything about punishing non-believers or 'evil' people, then fine. But you don't. So you attack me. Again.

'Couldn't see that one comming.'

Why does it feel like I'm on another forum and arguing against some moronic whitepower nazi-guy again?

(Time for PMs with "you are a ****ing muslum-lover" from a random selection of users again?)

Btw, I'm against all religions since they enslave the mind of the people. So much for loving muslims, huh?

[Truthsayer]

Ok not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim ( now at least)


Muslims are good people, only about 20 percent is bad..

But 20 percent of 1.4 billion is a ****load of people.

Argyll, are you gonna take this?


Lieing about history shouldn't be allowed.

Neither it's from a 16 year old punk-bitch from LA nor an revisionalist nazi-moron from Montana.

[IDFM203]

IDFM203>> Nice to see that your only job here is to spread lies. here go now and point out where I lied you lier!!!


You rather post racist crap about muslims being terroristsahh tell me when I posted that Muslims are terrorists?

Please do tell me how I have been a racist?


And yet again you lie about the picture: I never claimed it was real, no you post a pic and then you photo shop it, that is YOU automatically endorsing it….I mean its like you can bring a article full of lies and then say hey I didn’t write it as if that negates that it was YOU that brought the article and as such it is logically assumed that you support it.

That picture and what it portrayed was a lie!!!


I claimed you couldn't prove it wasn't. Remeber: You came to me and said it was - so the burden of proof is on you. and indeed I proved it by showing how there was Arabic writing on their shirts which shows that it wasn’t Jewish kids at all and also how their “Jewish sideburns” were fake.


If you hade any proof that the translated bible we get here is false and faked and that the bible never teaches anything about punishing non-believers or 'evil' people, then fine. But you don't. I didn’t attack you because I have no proof or anything like that, I avoid religious debates as I explained before and as such I chose not to argue with you on it…javehn countered every point you made on the torah before and yet you offer no counter points to his point by point on the scriptures that you brought down from some website.

It just shows here whom really known nothing :roll:

As for attacking you, well perhaps you might see it that way but I am simply responding to YOUR comments and all I am doing is once again pointing out the utter hypocrisy in almost all of your statements about us that you yourself engage in the same type of racist and lying and despicable manner about us as you accuse others of doing of others!!



Why does it feel like I'm on another forum and arguing against some moronic whitepower nazi-guy again? :cantbeli: :roll: and now this old tired thing…Preatty lame tacitc!!! :roll: I mean hey you used it already time to change it up, huh? I mean you keep on trying to compare me to Nazi’s as if you are some angle here but I think before you accuse anyone of acting the way you do, look in the mirror first you hypocrite!! :bash:



(Time for PMs with "you are a f*** muslum-lover" from a random selection of users again?) what does this have to do with anything, have I ever sent you a PM???? Ever?? I don’t think so!!

How dare you institute that I have.



Btw, I'm against all religions since they enslave the mind of the people. So much for loving muslims, huh? I don’t care who you love, but what’s clear is that you defend anything against what’s said about Muslims but yet you say a lot against Jews.

You hypocrite!!!

Shalom :D

[born_to_kill]

Ok not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim ( now at least)


Muslims are good people, only about 20 percent is bad..

But 20 percent of 1.4 billion is a ****load of people.

Argyll, are you gonna take this?


Lieing about history shouldn't be allowed.

Neither it's from a 16 year old punk-bitch from LA nor an revisionalist nazi-moron from Montana.

How am i lying about history??

your a ****in idiot learn to read

[born_to_kill]

IDFM dont even bother arguing with Liesayer, hes a ****in idiot stoner who thinks he knows everything because he sits and reads about **** on the internet all day.

He calls us liars then when u ask him to prove it he runs away

punk bitch ****er muslim lover

[Truthsayer]

That picture and what it portrayed was a lie!!!

The picture was a montage and a mockey or some other members banners on the 2004 election.

It said "Bush Sharon 2004" - SO OFCOURSE IT WAS A LIE!

Jesus christ, don't so dumb and start a war over a satire-pic.

You do know the concept, right?

Btw, when i typed 'random users' is meant _other users_, often not directly onvolved in the argument, hence 'random' - GET IT?

For some reason you seem to lack common reading comprehension and therefor take that as an excuse for going off at people.

I'm not suprised, 'some of you' (Israelis, probably most notably cit-k and javehn, look up the thread yourself) said every one living in Sweden was 'nazis' and 'anti-semits' for an art-work some JEW puts in an MUSEUM. For christs sake, you better get a grip on the world.

With posts like that, YOU MADE PEOPLE HATE YOU - donät you get it?

That thread was spread across some 50 other sites (and irc-networks) and people got sick of reading it and you accusations.

But no..no..no..'we' are the bad people. You are the people from God. We are evil. You are good.

Btw, if some of the ****ed-up nazi would kill that artist, would you consider it an act of love or hate from your stance? Some of you seemed to hate him too...

[Truthsayer]

IDFM dont even bother arguing with Liesayer, hes a f*** idiot stoner who thinks he knows everything because he sits and reads about **** on the internet all day.

He calls us liars then when u ask him to prove it he runs away

punk bitch f*** muslim lover



I WAS RIGHT.



Btw, do you BORN TO KILL (but aren't old enough to join **** yet) still celebrate the assasiantion in Chechnia of the president???

[born_to_kill]

Liespreader

please show me a thread where they said everyone in sweden was a nazi, because if they said it (WHICH THEY DIDNT) then theyre ****in idiots and not all israelis think like that

too bad they didnt say it though.

[Truthsayer]

Liespreader

please show me a thread where they said everyone in sweden was a nazi, because if they said it (WHICH THEY DIDNT) then theyre f*** idiots and not all israelis think like that

too bad they didnt say it though.

Contradiction is so much fun.


Btw, do you BORN TO KILL (but aren't old enough to join **** yet) still celebrate the assasiantion in Chechnia of the president???

[born_to_kill]

you turn every ****in thing into a flamewar with your retarted views.

i dont know how old you are but thats pretty low (im assuming your older because your making fun of me for being 16, another immature thing to do)

so im going to be the matuer guy and walk away from this thread

****in faggot

[Truthsayer]

you turn every f*** thing into a flamewar with your retarted views.

i dont know how old you are but thats pretty low (im assuming your older because your making fun of me for being 16, another immature thing to do)

so im going to be the matuer guy and walk away from this thread

f*** faggot

You are the mature one, huh?

Then why did you even come here?

Yes, I know...to flame.


Btw, do you BORN TO KILL (but aren't old enough to join **** yet) still celebrate the assasiantion in Chechnia of the president???


You made a fool out of yourself and deserve to get kicked in the nuts.

Next time to want to CELEBRATE the death of an president, atleast make sure he IS an muslum. That why no-one in this board cares.

(Hint: The president in Chechnia was pro-Russian and seen as an traitor by the extremist groups. So you post with 'Good job Russia' and a smailie wasn't only wrong, it was distastefull.)

[Beowulf]

locked