Is Britain Replacing the Sa80a2?

[bogginroyal]

Having never fired the A2, I have only bad memories of the SA80 from my army days. I had always hoped we would eventually adopt the FN2000, or an HK offering. Yesterday though I saw a Brit soldier on close protection, much to my amazement he was touting an M4 (as favoured by Argyll) . Is this the end of the UKs love affair with all things HK ?
What is your choice for the UKs new rifle, does it matter if it is not Brit built ?

[ShotOver]

Ah, I thought you would of had a link to some news of some sort.

Also, wouldnt it of been a Diemaco C8? Not an M4.

[Molli]

As PT has already posted, the rifle you saw was unlikely to be an M4, instead you were looking at - more than likely - a Diemaco model! You should have asked for a fondle! ;) Most UK Diemacos carry a specific stamp, just like the others sold to, for example, the Netherlands.

[oldsoak]

A2 will go for a few years yet - its far more reliable than the first incarnation and does its job of slotting the baddies.
for a replacement - personally I'd go for something that uses a gas piston as a means of reloading. The direct gas-impingement ( think I got that right....)
of the M16 series works well but it does require good quality propellant in the cartridges. As the MoD may be tempted to buy cheap ammo, this might not be a good idea - I wouldnt want futuresquaddie to be left bangless on a battlefield thanks to some tight git back home. Roller locks like the HK33 are good, but require quality ammo cases. There exists the possibility that a cheap catridge will loose its base on extraction, leaving you with a nasty jam. I've seen this happen on G3's in Denmark and the gun was u/s for the rest of the ex.
This leaves us with FN or HK as suppliers. FN2000 looks odd and I dont know how its functioned in combat , but its a bullpup and FN do make good kit. The G36 has done well, is a known quantity and is used by quite a few countries. I'm not sure if it takes A2/M16 mags, but I'm sure HK can meet that requirement. My money would be on a German offering - 36/416 etc .

[velvet-cream]

The title of this thread is a little bit misleading. :)

As for cheap ammo, a military assault rifle should (as a requirement) be able to digest lower quality ammo. You never know. At times you may not be able to get ammo resupply from national stocks and you may need to rely on ammo from allies (which may be of lower or different quality). You shouldn't tailor ammo specifically for a particular type of weapon.

At least the above theory goes, with standard NATO rounds...
But I've heard not all militaries with 5.56x45mm rifles use NATO standard (ss109) rounds.

[Hydro]

UK Diemaco C8's are stamped L119A1 on the magazine housing.


As for replacement rifle; HK416 in a dream world. Mags already in service, piston driven therefore cleaner and easier to maintain, loads of options to attach expensive toys to it, if the MoD wanted to save money you could buy cheap M16A2 lowers and mate them to 416 uppers with no real adverse effects.

[Molli]

If the decision, on the matter of a replacement for the SA80 family, was up to me, I would have to go for Diemacos! ... Sorry, Colt Canandas! To be simply-specific*:

C7A1 w/ ACOG replaces L85A2 & L86A2 w/ SUSAT/ACOG
C7 " " L85A2 w/ Irons
C7A1 w/ ACOG & AG-C " " SA80 UGL
C8A1 w/ ACOG " " L85A2'K' w/ SUSAT/ACOG

Why? The forces have been using the AR-15 - and it's decendants - since before the Americans even did! Plus, the system is rather well proven, despite a few glitches.

*:lol:

[oldsoak]

The title of this thread is a little bit misleading. :)

As for cheap ammo, a military assault rifle should (as a requirement) be able to digest lower quality ammo. You never know, at time you may not be able to get ammo resupply from national stocks and you may need to rely on ammo from allies (which may be of lower or different quality). You shouldn't tailor ammo specifically for a particular type of weapon.

At least the above theory goes, with standard NATO rounds...
But I've heard not all militaries with 5.56x45mm rifles use NATO standard (ss109) rounds.

True. However, all sorts of variations exist -
5.56x45 varies quite a bit - The UK uses a different load for the SA80 to the US and some NATO countries. Then you've got m193 ( used by France ) and m855/ss109 NATO standard which require a different twist to the rifling. Then you've got steel cased ammo ( cases are more brittle ) and brass cased.
Ideally you should have a rifle that can digest ADI ammo as good as RG or Winchester.

[Hydro]

IIRC also the CP teams are switching to Diemacos because the HK53's are getting a bit long in the tooth and H&K don't make spares for them any more.

[Molli]

UK Diemaco C8's are stamped L119A1 on the magazine housing.

Pointing forward; left or right side?

[velvet-cream]

True. However, all sorts of variations exist -
5.56x45 varies quite a bit - The UK uses a different load for the SA80 to the US and some NATO countries. Then you've got m193 ( used by France ) and m855/ss109 NATO standard which require a different twist to the rifling. Then you've got steel cased ammo ( cases are more brittle ) and brass cased.
Ideally you should have a rifle that can digest ADI ammo as good as RG or Winchester.

Yeah, that was my point. They adopted a standard, but didn't really stick to it. I'm sure you could probably fill a magazine with all the above ammo types and it will fire it through a decent assault rifle without jamming. But you'll end up with shifts in zero, etc.

Since many operations these days comprise of multinational forces and task groups, it's not far fetched that you may need to rely on allies for ammo supplies.

And don't forget that the UK and France use the Minimi / M249 type weapons. To the best of my knowledge, those weapons function best with SS109 belt. So what happens when you need to break up link for the L85A2 or the FAMAS? (it doesn't happen often, but what if...)

For those in the UK, do the minimis and the SA80s use the same cartridge? (besides the fact the minimi rounds are linked)

[PaulClift]

Damn, I thought this was going to be some breaking news for a minute :D

[Molli]

Here's a question: What would've you have chosen if the L70 went the way of the F-111K, TSR. 2, et cetera? No shiny G36s, HK416s and '2000s... Early '80s remember!

[bogginroyal]

24155Yeah, the title of the post is deliberately provocative and misleading, gets the debate going, so no apologies.
Solid points from all posts, my own preference is for a rethink on the nato-standard concept.
Nato will soon need an uplift, a lot of western nations are finding it increasingly hard to commit through politics.
When the change comes it may be time to re-visit the standard round.
Recent experience in Afghanistan and Iraq shows 5.56 can fail to deliver at longer ranges, the standard 300m engagement has gavev way at times to 400, 500m +.
I am aware a new 6.8mm round is finding favour with some as the new wonder bullet, providing range, stopping power, accuracy without significant increases in weight.
What ever happened to the caseless fletchette round ?

[baboon6]

Here's a question: What would've you have chosen if the L70 went the way of the F-111K, TSR. 2, et cetera? No shiny G36s, HK416s and '2000s... Early '80s remember!

Steyr AUG?

[Hydro]

Pointing forward; left or right side?



Left IIRC, under the Diemaco company stamp. It's been a while since I've seen one though.

[Molli]

Left IIRC, under the Diemaco company stamp. It's been a while since I've seen one though.

Ok, thanks. This here must be old, pre-designation, or something along those lines:

| \
| /

SFW
5.56mm

00xxxx1GB

[JDZ]

Solid points from all posts, my own preference is for a rethink on the nato-standard concept.
Nato will soon need an uplift, a lot of western nations are finding it increasingly hard to commit through politics.
When the change comes it may be time to re-visit the standard round.
Recent experience in Afghanistan and Iraq shows 5.56 can fail to deliver at longer ranges, the standard 300m engagement has gavev way at times to 400, 500m +.
I am aware a new 6.8mm round is finding favour with some as the new wonder bullet, providing range, stopping power, accuracy without significant increases in weight.
What ever happened to the caseless fletchette round ?

I doubt they’ll introduce a new calibre. My personal experience is that the effective range of an assault rifle is mainly limited by its optics, the skills of the soldier and the rifle’s condition.
For long range fire fights the squad designed marksman concept seems to work better.
The new calibre would only create logistical problems.

[bogginroyal]

I've never bought in to the need for an interchangeable rifle system, ie change the barrel and its a lsw change another its a smg. I don't see the practicalities of carrying lots of rifle parts.
The only factor is the compatibility of the round fired.
The future asslt rifle mayb see a return to a larger but lighter round. The key is to reduce the weight of the round while increasing the weight of the warhead. Caseless ammo may be the way ahead. G-11 on the way back.

[oldsoak]

Yeah, that was my point. They adopted a standard, but didn't really stick to it. I'm sure you could probably fill a magazine with all the above ammo types and it will fire it through a decent assault rifle without jamming. But you'll end up with shifts in zero, etc.

Since many operations these days comprise of multinational forces and task groups, it's not far fetched that you may need to rely on allies for ammo supplies.

And don't forget that the UK and France use the Minimi / M249 type weapons. To the best of my knowledge, those weapons function best with SS109 belt. So what happens when you need to break up link for the L85A2 or the FAMAS? (it doesn't happen often, but what if...)

For those in the UK, do the minimis and the SA80s use the same cartridge? (besides the fact the minimi rounds are linked)

Yes - the UK still produces its own ammo with the RG headstamp and uses the same cartridge in the A2 and Minimi para/L110A1

[martinexsquaddie]

Diemacos but only if you get the uber gucci SF version friend of my brothers runs an armoury supplied the weapons for ultimate force among others
turned up at chilwell to go to iraq with a barret and hk pgs1 pair of mp5s the
powers that me were mightly un impressed even more so when he showed them the vickers:)
think tackleberry and your have the general idea

[Nrjetix]

Janes IDR has an article on improved future small arms. Here are some MOD related snippets.

Elsewhere, the UK MoD is gearing up to make a landmark decision on the future of its small-arms weapons mix. Sources within the organisation told Jane's that the UK MoD is now considering a number of weapons to take over from the SA80A2 assault rifle, which has an expiry date of 2020 at the very latest.

But the UK MoD's first key decision will be to confirm the calibre of its replacement assault rifle by 2008. The decision will take into account the MoD's strategy to equip each infantry section with four assault rifles, two with Underslung Grenade Launchers (UGL), two Light Machine Guns (LMG) and two Light Support Weapons (LSW).
According to one insider, the UK MoD's aim is to "deliver the right effects in the right scenarios with the right lethality, integrated with FIST and networks".
"Now we must start getting basic research in place and make the right decisions in the next couple of years to get the right systems in place by 2020. We must learn from the SA80 if we are to deliver a fully integrated and reliable lethality system and need this time to develop and trial it," he says.

Industry experts also confirm that the UK MoD had considered replacing its entire armoury of 300,000 5.56 mm SA80 rifles with Colt M16 systems, prior to Heckler & Koch's (H&K) GBP92 million (USD179 million) revamp of the weapon in 2000.

The US Army has commissioned a research group to study the effectiveness of the M855 5.56 mm round as used in the M16 and M4 weapon systems. Using equipment previously set aside to test artillery and armour, military small-arms rounds are pitted against commercial cartridges in different scenarios.
"This was not a calibre study. However, it did find that the family of 5.56 mm weapons and the older 7.62 mm M14 have the same effectiveness in the hands of a warfighter during the heat of battle," says Colonel Mark D Rider, officer in charge of the project.
Similarly, as the UK MoD is expected to stick with 5.56 mm ammunition, current research is also being carried out by QinetiQ and Dstl concentrating on lethality of small-arms fire. In the past, 5.56 mm rounds have been criticised for not having enough stopping power.

As has been seen with the UK MoD considering a mix of assault-rifle calibres within a section, there is now a growing trend for the development of multi-calibre families or weapons.
One such weapon, which would fit the MoD's requirements, is FN Manufacturing's special forces combat assault rifle (SCAR) family of rifles. Currently in low-rate production in the US after an operational requirements document generated by Special Operations Command in 2003, SCAR can be adapted to both 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm calibres.

With the HK416 in production for the US military and law enforcement, the HK417 is expected to start production this year following positive feedback from various NATO special forces units. According to HKGB, a 'few' NATO forces are interested in an ability for interchangeable barrels, -capable of fulfilling different roles.
"We are marketing it as an assault rifle with high accuracy levels," says Thornton, while outlining the possibility of upgrading the HK417 into a fully-fledged sniper rifle system in the near future.
Involved in research and development for the new UK MoD programme to replace the SA80A2 assault rifle for the British Army, as well as being strategically placed among all other NATO soldier modernisation programmes outside of the US, H&K still sees 5.56 mm calibre as a solid weapon calibre for assault rifles.
"Both 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm calibre weapons will remain the mainstays as well as PDW type weapons and I expected nothing to change today. The next period will see a different calibre perhaps, although the case for 6.8 mm is not yet proven. However, programmes are in place to look at that," he concludes.

[Steve Andrews]

Last night on TV they had a British Major General "on patrol" in Iraq.

One of his close protection team had a very short "M16 family" rifle. It wasn't a Diemaco SFW. Any ideas?

[Thor]

As for replacement rifle; HK416 in a dream world.
According to the rumors floating around it's not really that much more expensive than the G36. So, why not.

[Straker]

Last night on TV they had a British Major General "on patrol" in Iraq.

One of his close protection team had a very short "M16 family" rifle. It wasn't a Diemaco SFW. Any ideas?

Diemaco do make a 11.5 or 10" barreled weapon IIRC, might have been one of them?

[big_les]

Last night on TV they had a British Major General "on patrol" in Iraq.

One of his close protection team had a very short "M16 family" rifle. It wasn't a Diemaco SFW. Any ideas?

I think you'd need more to go on; there are so many variants and "frankenstein" mixes of parts out there.

See http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=296919

Unless there's a UK-issued shorty Diemaco that it could have been...

[Molli]

Diemaco do make a 11.5 or 10" barreled weapon IIRC, might have been one of them?


Last night on TV they had a British Major General "on patrol" in Iraq.

One of his close protection team had a very short "M16 family" rifle. It wasn't a Diemaco SFW. Any ideas?

C8 CQB (http://www.diemaco.com/cqb-page.htm)? Or an 'old' Commando, SAS GW1 styley?

[-[Crosshair]-]

If the decision, on the matter of a replacement for the SA80 family, was up to me, I would have to go for Diemacos! ... Sorry, Colt Canandas! To be simply-specific*

Diemaco is now known as Colt Canada, they're one and the same and has been for a few years.


Why? The forces have been using the AR-15 - and it's decendants - since before the Americans even did! Plus, the system is rather well proven, despite a few glitches.

.........

Did you just say that another country used AR-15s before americans?

The AR-15 was developped in america and has been used since the middle sixties there. Where the flying **** are you getting your info?

Canadians got Diemacos in 1984, the Netherlands got their M95s (C7A1s) in 1995 and their M96s (C8s) in 1996. I'm not sure about the British's L119A1 (C8SFW).

[marktigger]

well 2020 is a long way off and who knows what will be developed in the meantime. Current 556's I would select if the decision was mine would fall between the G36 or the C7/C8 A2 like the Canadians are getting.

[Adam Wilhelm]

-;2382403']

Did you just say that another country used AR-15s before americans?

The AR-15 was developped in america and has been used since the middle sixties there. Where the flying **** are you getting your info?

Canadians got Diemacos in 1984, the Netherlands got their M95s (C7A1s) in 1995 and their M96s (C8s) in 1996. I'm not sure about the British's L119A1 (C8SFW).

Ever heard of Borneo?

[Steve Andrews]

C8 CQB (http://www.diemaco.com/cqb-page.htm)? Or an 'old' Commando, SAS GW1 styley?

The flash hider didn't loook like the C8 CQB's. I think it was a Commando.

The M4 Commando? Do Brits use them?

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/5853/m4comib2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Anthony91]

I'd say either the G36KE or the HK416 Carbine.

But it's not my military to decide what it needs...

[-[Crosshair]-]

The flash hider didn't loook like the C8 CQB's. I think it was a Commando.

The M4 Commando? Do Brits use them?

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/5853/m4comib2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

...No, they use the L119A1.

[Steve Andrews]

-;2382474']...No, they use the L119A1.

Definitely wasn't one of those. It was on the special feature on ITN news last night.
Close protection guy in full desert DPMs with Mk 6 helmet, carrying a Colt Commando/very similar weapon.

[Pete031]

There are so many different variations of the C8/M4 different hand guards, different flash suppressors, optics, you name it. Did the lower reciever look like a C8/M4? If it did then thats probably what it was.

[Steve Andrews]

There are so many different variations of the C8/M4 different hand guards, different flash suppressors, optics, you name it. Did the lower reciever look like a C8/M4? If it did then thats probably what it was.

I couldn't really see. The weapon looked to me to be an M4 Commando, but it could have been a Canadian version.

All I know is that it looked the same as the M4 Commando in the picture that I posted earlier.

[Hydro]

Diemaco C8 CQB's are also used, the two SAS blokes captured on a recce in Iraq and were splattered over the papers had them, they have 10.5 inch barrels.




Did you just say that another country used AR-15s before americans?

The AR-15 was developped in america and has been used since the middle sixties there. Where the flying **** are you getting your info?

The UK has used the AR-15 since 1962 IIRC for use in the jungle, and saw action all through the 1960's, Borneo, Indonesia...

[szr]

Definitely wasn't one of those. It was on the special feature on ITN news last night.
Close protection guy in full desert DPMs with Mk 6 helmet, carrying a Colt Commando/very similar weapon.
Today's Pic's Tuesday, March 20th, 2007 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2380769#post2380769)
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/424/snapshot20070320212958eq6.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9620/snapshot20070320213038jy0.jpg

[N-G-F-O]

Diemaco C8 CQB's are also used, the two SAS blokes captured on a recce in Iraq and were splattered over the papers had them, they have 10.5 inch barrels.





The UK has used the AR-15 since 1962 IIRC for use in the jungle, and saw action all through the 1960's, Borneo, Indonesia...

SRR not SAS

[Hydro]

I stand corrected.

[gaijinsamurai]

I'd like to see them adopt either the HK416 or the Swedish version of the FNC.

[curlyboy]

Last time i checked the british army were looking at a version of the G36K to replace the SA80, as it would have to be a H&K gun due to H&K been british owned (at the present) and lots of toys for the SA80 could be adapted for the G36 (grenade launchers etc).

I doubt the british army would touch any version of the armalite after their experiance with the older models, and the canadian ones were a limited buy to evaluate performance apparently.

curlyboy

[marktigger]

Last time i checked the british army were looking at a version of the G36K to replace the SA80, as it would have to be a H&K gun due to H&K been british owned (at the present) and lots of toys for the SA80 could be adapted for the G36 (grenade launchers etc).

I doubt the british army would touch any version of the armalite after their experiance with the older models, and the canadian ones were a limited buy to evaluate performance apparently.

curlyboy

HK isn't British owned Blair and co forced Bae to sell it to conform to New Labours ethical foreign policy bull****

[Little J]

HK isn't British owned Blair and co forced Bae to sell it to conform to New Labours ethical foreign policy bull****


Better for HK that they did sell, always thought BAe's management of its divisions was s***.

[GazB]

What ever happened to the caseless fletchette round ?

Close range accuracy was not good enough due to seperation issues with the sabot petals. Due to high velocity and short flight time the effects of wind and range were so low that the rifle offered had a fixed sight that could be used out to about 700m and was more accurate than the 5.56mm ammo at longer ranges. The other main problem however was effect on target. The holes in the target were tiny and unless it hit a bone or load bearing equipment it would likely have a very poor wounding effect unless it hit the brain. Even heart shots were shown to be not necessarily fatal as the tiny hole resealed and the heart continued to pump in a live pig used for tests.

Regarding what weapon they should use, they have invested enough in the SA80A2, why not just continue using that? Get some soldiers that have used it into the meetings they have at the place that upgrades them and give them Browning 9mm pistols to shoot any accountant that says a word. Then make sure any British MP that has any power or control with regard to the DODs purse strings also has a son or daughter on the front line with the British Army and see that any equipment they get everyone gets...
Shame it wont happen though.

[Hydro]

I doubt the british army would touch any version of the armalite after their experiance with the older models, and the canadian ones were a limited buy to evaluate performance apparently.

curlyboy



Eh? The Armalite was loved by the UK forces. The Canadian C7's and 8's have been in use since the mid to late 1980's in the hands of all sorts. UKSF use the C8 SFW regularly.

[Molli]

I doubt the british army would touch any version of the armalite after their experiance with the older models, and the canadian ones were a limited buy to evaluate performance apparently.

Erm... I don't think so.

If they had such a rough time with the 'Armalite family', why have the 'Armalites' been the primary arm for most, if not all, of our elite forces in almost every bloody conflict they've been envolved in?

[Molli]

The Canadian C7's and 8's have been in use since the mid to late 1980's in the hands of all sorts.

When did the Canadians adopt the C7?

[Hydro]

1984 I believe.

[Molli]

So Diemacos in the Gulf, rather than 'Pick 'n' Mix' Colts?

[Hydro]

Could be either/or IIRC. No way to say for definite.

[Pete031]

So Diemacos in the Gulf, rather than 'Pick 'n' Mix' Colts?

We have had them as general issue since 1986. Yeah, Canada's contingent used them in Gulf war 1

[bogginroyal]

I've seen the future and its BELGIAN
http://www.portierramaryaire.com/imagenes/fn2000.jpg

[marktigger]

My reading is that we tend to spend to much time devloping weapons that preform well on the range and to pass trials testing and then look at cost instead of buying off the shelf developed products.

[oldsoak]

My reading is that we tend to spend to much time devloping weapons that preform well on the range and to pass trials testing and then look at cost instead of buying off the shelf developed products.

its the only way to get on in the MoD these days....

[bogginroyal]

SLR one of the most reliable rifles Ive ever fired. BELGIAN.

[bogginroyal]

GPMG the best 7.62 machine gun ever.
BELGIAN

[bogginroyal]

Minimi/m249
BELGIAN

[Thumpsquid]

hercule Poirot, best fictional detective

BELGIAN

[big_les]

Today's Pic's Tuesday, March 20th, 2007 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2380769#post2380769)

I had thought that Steve Andrews was right; comparing that screengrab (nice one by the way) with the C8 CQB as posted earlier ( http://www.diemaco.com/cqb-page.htm ) the flashhider doesn't look right - it looks more traditional Colt (M933 Commando judging by the black blur/carry handle area).

Looking again I think the flashhider could be the longer ****g type, just foreshortened and indistinct due to being vidcapped. Despite this, light is still showing through the slot in the ****gs; if it were the M4-type hider, the slots (being much smaller and closed at the end) would be barely (if at all) visible. I think it's the Diemaco.

Look also at the butt-pad. It's damn thick, again a feature of the C8 (CQB).

The barrel/RIS-mounted torch is also very similar to the one on the Diemaco promo photos, if that tells us anything.

[Hydro]

Dr Evil.



BELGIAN.

[Freibier]

French Fries



BELGIAN

[Raptus_regaliter]

Bottle in the Keyster.

BELGIAN.

[Pete031]

I had thought that Steve Andrews was right; comparing that screengrab (nice one by the way) with the C8 CQB as posted earlier ( http://www.diemaco.com/cqb-page.htm ) the flashhider doesn't look right - it looks more traditional Colt (M933 Commando judging by the black blur/carry handle area).

Looking again I think the flashhider could be the longer ****g type, just foreshortened and indistinct due to being vidcapped. Despite this, light is still showing through the slot in the ****gs; if it were the M4-type hider, the slots (being much smaller and closed at the end) would be barely (if at all) visible. I think it's the Diemaco.

Look also at the butt-pad. It's damn thick, again a feature of the C8 (CQB).

The barrel/RIS-mounted torch is also very similar to the one on the Diemaco promo photos, if that tells us anything.

So what? I had a vortex on mine overseas. Everything is plug and play with those weapons... Especially with high speed units.

[big_les]

So what? I had a vortex on mine overseas. Everything is plug and play with those weapons... Especially with high speed units.

Obviously. But we're dealing with a *British* close protection detail, and British SF are known to have and use Diemaco carbines. If the flashhider and butt are as they appear, then this all makes sense. The only reason this matters a jot to us chairborne types is whether or not this guy has an issue weapon or a kitbash. And because somebody asked.

[Thor]

I'd like to see them adopt either the HK416 or the Swedish version of the FNC.
I got no complaints about it but when procuring a new standard assault carbine you should look 30 years ahead and then FN SCAR probably is a better choice (even if you can attach the same extras). Don't know the price difference though.

Ak5C
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/1174/2belowmj6di5.jpg

FN SCAR Mk. 16
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/9783/ee4a4874jpgorigcf6.jpg

[gaijinsamurai]

You're probably right, Thor.

[Pete031]

Obviously. But we're dealing with a *British* close protection detail, and British SF are known to have and use Diemaco carbines. If the flashhider and butt are as they appear, then this all makes sense. The only reason this matters a jot to us chairborne types is whether or not this guy has an issue weapon or a kitbash. And because somebody asked.

That what I am saying.... If you know they use Diemaco's, just like I use a diemaco, then it doesn't matter what the flash suppressor looks like. Or whether it has a vertical foregrip or not. Chances are, it's a diemaco.

[DeltaWhisky58]

How many times do we need to debate this topic? Every time we get a new Brit member it seems to rear its head again - use the bloody search engine! When replacement of the L85A2 is a serious issue, you can debate the matter again properly, but until then please give it a rest.

The L85A2 and the L22A1 (there is no such beast as the L85A2k) are with us for some time yet.


Yesterday though I saw a Brit soldier on close protection, much to my amazement he was touting an M4 (as favoured by Argyll) .

It would have been an L119A1 (Diemaco C8SFW) or another Diemaco variant.