First Merkava tank appears in French Armor Museum

[Javehn]

Recently Merkava tank has been donated to Frensh Saumur armor Museum . Here are the several pics of the tank in the Museum .

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/Merkava_1977_DSCF0117.jpg
Front

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/Merkava_1977_DSCF0114.jpg
Rear

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/Merkava_1977_DSCF0112.jpg
From the Left side

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/Merkava_1977_DSCF0111.jpg
Again fron

Ok , now i will let you do some speculations :lol: .

[J-10]

Nice pic's! :D

This is a Merkava Mk 2.

[Vance]

I never knew what the white arrow is for on the side of the vehicle. Can anyone tell me?

[UoUo]

I never knew what the white arrow is for on the side of the vehicle. Can anyone tell me?

I don't think that we allowed to do so.....maybe Javehn can tell....


And what mark is that? 1? or 2?

[J-10]

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/Merkava_1977_DSCF0114.jpg

The rear door is interesting. It is said this tank could load 8 soldiers, really?

[Javehn]

I never knew what the white arrow is for on the side of the vehicle. Can anyone tell me?

Continue guessing :lol: ;) .



And what mark is that? 1? or 2?

I am now in contacts to find out what mark that is . I would say , it looks like an early Merkava 2 , without the armor addings , and several old (very) features .

[flickme]

What are those chains for. I have several ideas but would feel stupid posting them and being wrong.

[Uninen]

I never knew what the white arrow is for on the side of the vehicle. Can anyone tell me?

Continue guessing :lol: ;) .

:roll: Tactical marking, to help and speed up the "IFF"...

[Javehn]

Ok , if that what you want to hear then yes .
Those are tactical markings . But beyond you can just guess (and most probably it doesn't interest you ) .

[unwanted]

Really nice pictures .. The Merkava sure looks like a sleek racing car/tank ... :)

[Ian H]

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/Merkava_1977_DSCF0114.jpg

The rear door is interesting. It is said this tank could load 8 soldiers, really?

I've heard this, but I've also heard that you're unlikely to get more than four in (the size of a Merkava crew). Coincidence?


Is the white arrow there so that new drivers know which door to get in? ;)j/k

The chains are for defence against RPG's, not perfect but they do help.

[Sirpad]

you can put 8-10 men inside the back of the tank, but that would be in a space required for gear, ammo. etc. in fact, it can take 3-4 guys other than the crew.

in the past there were plans for merkava-based APC - they were cancelled for financial reasons (the T-55 and M60-based APCs are excelent, though - hence extensive use in lebanon and territories). israel's heavy APC's are considered to be some of the best protected APCs in the world, and rummored to withstand direct impact of even the newest ATGMs.

[Javehn]

you can put 8-10 men inside the back of the tank, but that would be in a space required for gear, ammo. etc. in fact, it can take 3-4 guys other than the crew.

in the past there were plans for merkava-based APC - they were cancelled for financial reasons (the T-55 and M60-based APCs are excelent, though - hence extensive use in lebanon and territories). israel's heavy APC's are considered to be some of the best protected APCs in the world, and rummored to withstand direct impact of even the newest ATGMs.

Hey !!
Excuuse me Mister ! Do i know you ? :lol:

BTW guys , the picture is from someone private property , and you couldn't find one picture of it in the net . So , please i am asking not to distribute the picture , and respect that .

[Mark_Aspen]

HEY. I signed for that alunkah (stretcher) on the back, they've been docking my pay since. :)

[big80a2]

I never knew what the white arrow is for on the side of the vehicle. Can anyone tell me?

I't shows the way the vehicle is moving ;)

[big80a2]

I think this is a Merkava 2A but it lacks extra armor on sides of turend... but is has these smoke launcers that started to apear on the merkava 2B.

[big80a2]

you can put 8-10 men inside the back of the tank, but that would be in a space required for gear, ammo. etc. in fact, it can take 3-4 guys other than the crew.

in the past there were plans for merkava-based APC - they were cancelled for financial reasons (the T-55 and M60-based APCs are excelent, though - hence extensive use in lebanon and territories). israel's heavy APC's are considered to be some of the best protected APCs in the world, and rummored to withstand direct impact of even the newest ATGMs.

Hey !!
Excuuse me Mister ! Do i know you ? :lol:

BTW guys , the picture is from someone private property , and you couldn't find one picture of it in the net . So , please i am asking not to distribute the picture , and respect that .

Javehn I got this pics trhough idfarmor groups at yahoo...
Are you also a member there?

[J-10]

you can put 8-10 men inside the back of the tank, but that would be in a space required for gear, ammo. etc. in fact, it can take 3-4 guys other than the crew.


This question confused me for a long time, thanks for your answer! :D

[Lysander]

What are those chains for. I have several ideas but would feel stupid posting them and being wrong.

They might be used to detonate RPG rounds or missles before they hit the turret.

[Javehn]

Javehn I got this pics trhough idfarmor groups at yahoo...
Are you also a member there?

Yes :) .

And by the way , there is a lot more on the tank ID , then side skirts ;) The side skirts are from the old generation , of Merkava 1 and Early 2 style . The tank licenced number is pretty odd , armor settings , the scope , and so on (trained eye , baby :lol: ) .. It's 2 allright , but it's hard to understand what exctly . It had a lot of work done on it , before it was given to the French Museum ;) .

[big80a2]

Javehn I got this pics trhough idfarmor groups at yahoo...
Are you also a member there?

Yes :) .

And by the way , there is a lot more on the tank ID , then side skirts ;) The side skirts are from the old generation , of Merkava 1 and Early 2 style . The tank licenced number is pretty odd , armor settings , the scope , and so on (trained eye , baby :lol: ) .. It's 2 allright , but it's hard to understand what exctly . It had a lot of work done on it , before it was given to the French Museum ;) .

:D thanks for the trained eye
jep just looked at it and some other mk2 pics.
the Inside would be most modivided before it went to france :D
maybe they welted down the hatches and when the french open it up they will only find a white flag :P

[oldsoak]

"Sanitised" is some way perhaps ? It looks impressive anyway and I would love to have a look inside one. The Israelis were quite clever on the design. There almost looks to be a grenade chute by the back door so the crew can post an unpleasant suprise to someone creeping up behind them. Is that right Javehn ?

[Javehn]

It looks impressive anyway and I would love to have a look inside one. The Israelis were quite clever on the design. There almost looks to be a grenade chute by the back door so the crew can post an unpleasant suprise to someone creeping up behind them. Is that right Javehn ?

No ... ;) No special surprises :lol: . And anyway , guy who can open it from behind without previous training and demonstration can recieve a Nobell prize . :lol:

But the tank is very sanitised (that's why it was kind hard for me to ID the mark . And i am still not shure if i am correct ) . Specially from the inside .

[big80a2]

No ... ;) No special surprises :lol: . And anyway , guy who can open it from behind without previous training and demonstration can recieve a Nobell prize . :lol:



Well you knock 3 times on the door. push that secret bolt and say:
"Sesam openup"

[foxtrot023]

I never knew what the white arrow is for on the side of the vehicle. Can anyone tell me?

IFF

[Uncle Chô]

It looks impressive anyway and I would love to have a look inside one. The Israelis were quite clever on the design. There almost looks to be a grenade chute by the back door so the crew can post an unpleasant suprise to someone creeping up behind them. Is that right Javehn ?

No ... ;) No special surprises :lol: . And anyway , guy who can open it from behind without previous training and demonstration can recieve a Nobell prize . :lol:

But the tank is very sanitised (that's why it was kind hard for me to ID the mark . And i am still not shure if i am correct ) . Specially from the inside .
Funny pictures :D I have been to Saumur Tank Museum last Saturday (I think the above pictures have been taken the very same day since it was a Special Event with a modeling contest in a nearby Hall) and I carefully examined that Beast. First of all, I must confess I am not a IDF MBT specialist so I can't tell you what part is genuine or not. Obviously, this specimen was carefully prepared for public display. To me, it looked fresh out of the factory ! No mud, no rust, no damaged road wheels, everything is well painted. Even the sprayed antislip coating is brand new. Yes, I have been able to climb on the turret and had a look around. All hatches were sealed by a slim welding ! I bet sensitive equipement were of course removed before shipping and that the interior is mostly empty (I have no clue if the engine is running but there are some fluid leaks under the body...).

All in all, a very interesting display. We have seen this tank so often on pictures in dramatic photos that it was a good sight to see it "for real". ;)

[Uncle Chô]

Since you've asked... p-)

http://62.210.160.29/ImgAlbums3/Images1/40404/UnviBCbQE1D28042004200940501280.jpg

http://62.210.160.29/ImgAlbums3/Images1/40404/UnviBCbQE1D28042004200941788611.jpg

http://62.210.160.29/ImgAlbums3/Images1/40404/UnviBCbQE1D28042004200941670339.jpg

http://62.210.160.29/ImgAlbums3/Images1/40404/UnviBCbQE1D28042004200941415152.jpg

http://62.210.160.29/ImgAlbums3/Images1/40404/UnviBCbQE1D28042004200942669910.jpg

Remember, we were not supposed to climb on that tank! ;)

[big80a2]

who!! Thanks
Now you can see for real a lot is striped!!

hehe is Latrun getting a Leclerc now??

[Javehn]

Leclerc ? No , no , we don't want to make France loose it's entire Armored Corps . :lol: Just kidding guys . But we actually got Leopard .

Uncle Cho , very nice pictures , thank you very much!! You looky bastard you !!
Now i can clearly see that it has been striped from different parts , and some strange "appetisers" added .

[Lysander]

What is all that on the tank? It looks like dirt or something, however it seems to be part of the armor. What is the purpose of the "textured" finish on the tank?

[pascalbausset]

:) Hi,

Thanks for these very nice pics.

This Merkava dont have any engine. Because US governement don't want that Israel export military technologies in France !!!!! :bash:

Thanks mr B,but we have our proper modern MBTs that goes well....

Cheers
pascal

[big80a2]

What is all that on the tank? It looks like dirt or something, however it seems to be part of the armor. What is the purpose of the "textured" finish on the tank?

It's antislip cover so when the tank is wet you won't slide off.

*only why they put it on the piece normaly above the commanders sight, is quite strange*

[Herrmannek]

I never knew what the white arrow is for on the side of the vehicle. Can anyone tell me?

I't shows the way the vehicle is moving ;)

This side toward enemy :)

[big80a2]

Thanks mr B,but we have our proper modern MBTs that goes well....

Cheers
pascal

was joking around :P
as often

[Operation Ivy]

nice :D

[oldsoak]

Quite an interesting turret design with what looks like stowage boxes built into the main turret structure as opposed to bolted on. Secure from small arms fire and providing a stand-off space against heat projectiles perhaps ? Pure conjecture I know, but a nice thought. What an excellent set of pics of an excellent tank ! :D

[Lysander]

What is all that on the tank? It looks like dirt or something, however it seems to be part of the armor. What is the purpose of the "textured" finish on the tank?

It's antislip cover so when the tank is wet you won't slide off.

*only why they put it on the piece normaly above the commanders sight, is quite strange*

That makes sense.

[hank]

This is not meant as a slight in any way, but has a Merkava ever faced an emeny tank in any of the fighting the Israelis have done? I think Merkava came after the Israeli wars against organized armies, am I right?

Still, it is a good tank and I ain't dissin it. Just wondering. Any of the former Israeli army guys please answer.

hank

[Marsh]

Hi,

My first message on the site. :)

This Merkava is an early model Mark 2, but with some non-standard features. It has the heavy duty hinges for the special armour side-skirts, but has plain steel side-skirts fitted instead. Presumably for security considerations. If we could see the left flank of the machine where the engine exhausts are situated, there is an easy way to check if it is a mark 1, there is a seperate exhaust grille for the auxillery power unit. You can still date the machine by other external features.

It lacks the circular plate, once used by the internally mounted xenon searchlight fitted to the mark 1. This became redundant shortly after the mark 1 entered into production, and can be seen welded over just behind the loaders hatch on very early mark 2s. Yet the commanders sights are of an early design. They reflect Anglo-American design practices rather than the German style quickly adopted by the Merkava 2. On a Merkava 2 of this vintage you would expect a fixed ring of five unity-power periscopes, and an externally mounted monocular, rotating periscope with a zoom function, magnifying images from x4 to x20. These are missing. My guess would be this is an upgraded, early, Merkava 2 which has been deliberately downgraded for display purposes.

It is perfectly possible for me to name the tank's platoon, company, battalion and parent brigade from the tactical markings. I won't, in deference to security considerations on the internet. However, all this information is available from open sources - if you know where to look. Interestingly, some of the markings appear to have been applied by someone for whom Hebrew isn't their first language. By French museum staff perhaps?

For those who asked, althought the Merkava was first displaid for foreign Defence attaches with 8 infantrymen disembarking from it, they were packed in like sardines. For some special missions 3 or 4 infantry can be carried for short distances. The space at the rear of the tank is normally used to carry ammo, gear or to evacuate casualties.

The Merkava is an excellent tank with many unique features. It proved itself in battle against T-62s and T-72s in 1982.

cheers
Marsh

[Operation Ivy]

marsh were u a tanker, or are u just into tanks :hug: woot

[Marsh]

Hi,
Not a tanker I am afraid. I do write books and articles on armoured vehicles and military technology though.

cheers
Marsh

[American Patriot]

Nice pics. Who says the Jews are stingy with their belongings?

[Operation Ivy]

Hi,
Not a tanker I am afraid. I do write books and articles on armoured vehicles and military technology though.

cheers
Marsh

Sweet man, welcome to the forum :D u got any links or something to your articles, or your book names? :D

[ronin2172]

This is not meant as a slight in any way, but has a Merkava ever faced an emeny tank in any of the fighting the Israelis have done? I think Merkava came after the Israeli wars against organized armies, am I right?

Still, it is a good tank and I ain't dissin it. Just wondering. Any of the former Israeli army guys please answer.

hank

The Merkava was first used during the invasion of Lebanon in 1982 where it faced the T-72. As far as i have found it defeated the T-72 with ease, and none were lost in tank to tank combat.

However some were lost as a result of ATGM's or RPG's hitting the rear of the turret (hence the ball and chain apparatus at the rear). Despite this no Merkava crewmen was injured or lost in combat.

[ZeroPositive]

love the photos that is one hell of a tank

[Javehn]

Welcome abord Marsh , very good post .

Couple of things :


On a Merkava 2 of this vintage you would expect a fixed ring of five unity-power periscopes

The episcopes are not mounted in a ring styile Leopard .


My guess would be this is an upgraded, early, Merkava 2 which has been deliberately downgraded for display purposes.


Indeed ,that's good observation .


It is perfectly possible for me to name the tank's platoon, company, battalion and parent brigade from the tactical markings. I won't, in deference to security considerations on the internet. However, all this information is available from open sources - if you know where to look.

Check your PM about this matter .


Interestingly, some of the markings appear to have been applied by someone for whom Hebrew isn't their first language. By French museum staff perhaps?

How did you get to that conclussion ? :lol: Possible , but not necessary at all .


The Merkava is an excellent tank with many unique features. It proved itself in battle against T-62s and T-72s in 1982.

The last part of the sentence is problematic. There was a little research done on that subject , and apparantly the only place were engagement took part (only fight between T-72 and allegedly Merkava tanks) , the Merkava tanks didn't took part in the engagements , and in a fog of battle there are several contradicting versions . Unfortunatly , now i am not in position to tell more , later this evening perhaps ,if someone interested , i can tell more about that matter .

Again , i will say , very good post Marsh . Are you a poster over in Tank-net ?

[big80a2]

Thanks Marsh!!

didn't you write the book about israeli modern APC's ??
*Can check it but I'm not at the right place for that right now*

thankzz

[Marsh]

Hi Javehn, :D

I have close up, detailed photos of later build Merkava 2 commanders cupolas. These are onboard machines in service, and clearly show a fixed ring of five episcopes.

Yes, I know about the arguments as to wether or not it was Merkavas or TOWs which engaged and destroyed T-72s in the foothills of Sultan Ya'akub. (Or indeed if any T-72s were engaged). I have heard enough to suggest that at least some T-72s were taken out by the Merk.

I thought that the tactical markings might have been painted by the French museum staff as the Hebrew character Bet is particularly clumsily drawn.

Yes, I do post on Tanknet. I rarely post on any web site. I don't have the time. I tend to lurk. After Tanknet I find this site of most interest.

cheers
Marsh

[Javehn]

Yes, I do post on Tanknet. I rarely post on any web site. I don't have the time. I tend to lurk. After Tanknet I find this site of most interest.

Probably because of the pictures , and not discussion quality :lol: .


Yes, I know about the arguments as to wether or not it was Merkavas or TOWs ....

You can add a battalion (if i am not mistaken) of M60 to that equasion . There were done a research made by several people that participated the battle , which suggested that the bigger chance is , that Merkava arrived later to the scene of the battle , and engaged allready "dead" tanks .


I have close up, detailed photos of later build Merkava 2 commanders cupolas. These are onboard machines in service, and clearly show a fixed ring of five episcopes.

Indeed , we probably talking about different things . I thought you are reffering to the case , where there is a ring built in into the commander hatch , and inside the ring the episcopes mounted . Like in Abrams or Leo TC hatch .

Here is a top picture of Merkava 2 in Latrun museum .
http://www.waronline.org/IDF/pictures/Museums/Latrun/0023.jpg

Take care .

[gilgoul]

who!! Thanks
Now you can see for real a lot is striped!!

hehe is Latrun getting a Leclerc now??

It would be so nice :D
The fact is the Leclerc seems to be a piece of art, balancing well mobility, com, protection and fire, It was the first databus tank, and seems to function well.

[admar2]

looks intimidating,

I'm surprised the French didn't surrender to it. :cantbeli:


J/K

[Javehn]

Ok , i am home now , so i can write more freely now :lol: .

First of all , i will recommend your latest book . I hope you don't mind , that i am doing here a free commercial to your book :lol: . The book is Osprey publishing , and you can buy it on their website online (to people that are interested ) . This book inspires many modelers , and it's an honor indeed that you decided to post here .

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/osp_img/titlecovers/S5791AL.JPG



Now , give me some time to find the matterial about T-72 VS Merkava story (or put my **** together , as we say :lol: ) , and i will post the information here .


So , next post on me ;) .

[Marsh]

Hi,
It is hardly "an honour" to have me on the site. I assure you, I am not very immpressive! :oops:

Am still at work.Have to go.

cheers
Marsh

[Uninen]

It is perfectly possible for me to name the tank's platoon, company, battalion and parent brigade from the tactical markings. I won't, in deference to security considerations on the internet. However, all this information is available from open sources - if you know where to look.
Check your PM about this matter .

LoL, did you think that its big secret? ;)

[Javehn]

Save your lols and insights for yourself if you have nothing to contribute , uninen .

Ok , couple of things .
The story is talled by members from AT TOW unit . There are accounts that they did had a tank force near them , but they were ...Shermans . That's sounds pretty strange , but the man who was in that fight insists on Sherman tank . Anyway , high probability that they didn't take any part in the fighting itself .

In the book "Way of a soldier" from Raful , he describes the battle between Merkava and T-72 , where he says about the big number of "killed" T-72 (20 tanks) , whereas there were almost no losses from Israeli side . The source i am quoting from now tryes to show that it wasn't the case , and the book was just bragging to show "our tanks is our might " , and what happened in Yom Kipur war , was just big luck to Syrian Armored corps , and we are way better infact .

The battle took part south of villedge Amiq in Lebanon , at 10-11 June , before the seaze fire . It's north west to Sultan Yaakub . After the battle , battalion from the 7 Brigade arrived to the scene after the engagement , and they shot at allready abandoned T-72 . That's the center of missunderstandment .

Thought , it brake other Soviet "myth" , that the T-72 was virtually unpenetrable by any AT means - the TOW attack was in front armor of T-72 .

Several of those T-72 got shot by M60 tanks .

[hey]

My father served as a tanker(in "magah" tanks, dont know the english name) during the lebanon war. He participated in the "karun" lake battle and "sultan yaakub" battle. He know that merkava tanks engaged surien t-62 and t-72 in those battles . He also told me about some markava crew members he met that were very happy with the merkava armor because it protected them very well from those surien tanks. it was the first engagment of the merkava and no one knew about the real capability of the armor and protective equitment so it was a nice surprise for the crews.

[Va_Dinger]

What are those chains for. I have several ideas but would feel stupid posting them and being wrong.

Detonate RPG HEAT warheads before they can strike the vulnerable turnet ring.

[bruce_m4]

Mag'ach tanks are Israeli M60s with Blazer armour plates and low profile Urdan cupolas.

Good read Marsh. I'll look for that book the next time I'm at a book store.