This Isn't True.......Guns Don't Exist In The UK

[Geezah]

With a total ban on firearms in the UK, I believe this story was fabricated by the Pro-Gun groups because you can't get guns when they're banned :roll:

Anti-gun crime drive is launched

Supporters of a charity set up to fight gun crime are meeting Home Secretary David Blunkett to raise the organisation's profile.

The Disarm Trust was set up in April 2003 in response to increased levels of violent crime involving firearms.

MP Diane Abbott, chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Gun Crime, set up the meeting.

Victims of gun crime and their families were invited to the event on Wednesday, along with celebrity supporters.

Figures from the pop world include So Solid Crew's Charleen and Siobhan, Damon Albarn, Gabrielle and Jamelia.

The police can't fight gun crime on their own

MP Diane Abbott
Other celebrities endorsing the charity include Casualty's Kwame Kwei-Armah and Basketball player John Amaechi.

Disarm was set up after several high-profile shootings across the UK.

Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis were shot dead while celebrating New Year's Eve 2003 in Birmingham.

Liverpool, Manchester, and London also have high levels of violent crime.

In January this year, 19-year-old Nureni Sheikh died after being shot twice in the Moss Side area of Manchester.

'Grassroots level'

This prompted community leaders in the area expressing fears gun crime was on the increase again.

Organiser Ms Abbott said: "The police can't fight gun crime on their own. The community needs to be involved.

"The Disarm Trust has played a key role in mobilising people both nationally and at grassroots level.

"This event will celebrate the first successful year of the trust and look to gain support for its future work."


This is in no way a flame, I'm just highlighting the fact you will never get rid of gun crime, it's all about supply and demand!

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3666499.stm)

[csqnsas]

The UK has had an increase in gun crime since the Gun laws were last reviewed and changed.

Some say it is now easier to get a gun than before. But you must 'know' the right people to do so.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Just like you cant get rid of cheap cigarettes :P :P :P
;)

[Geezah]

The UK has had an increase in gun crime since the Gun laws were last reviewed and changed.

Some say it is now easier to get a gun than before. But you must 'know' the right people to do so.

But how can that be, guns don't exist in the UK because of the ban?

[DeltaWhisky58]

The UK has had an increase in gun crime since the Gun laws were last reviewed and changed.

Some say it is now easier to get a gun than before. But you must 'know' the right people to do so.

But how can that be, guns don't exist in the UK because of the ban?

Not true. Handguns, semi-auto and pump-action rifles are banned, but hunting/target rifles (bolt/lever/break-open actions) and shotguns are quite legal under license.

[Geezah]

The UK has had an increase in gun crime since the Gun laws were last reviewed and changed.

Some say it is now easier to get a gun than before. But you must 'know' the right people to do so.

But how can that be, guns don't exist in the UK because of the ban?

Not true. Handguns, semi-auto and pump-action rifles are banned, but hunting/target rifles (bolt/lever/break-open actions) and shotguns are quite legal under license.

Are the people owning guns under license commiting crimes?

[Truthsayer]

Don't feed the tr0ll.

[Commander Cool]

British logic: If we ban guns then the bad guys won't be able ot get them and our country will be safe for law abiding people.

[Truthsayer]

American logic: "If all americans have handguns no-one will be able to shoot anyone else, because everyone will be to afraid.

Just make sure convited fellons don't get any, and we in the suburbs will feel save."

Generalising is fun, isn't it?

Btw, if liberal gunlaws are the solution to crimes, and your gunlaws are the best - how come people get murdered in the US?

How can I get a licens for a 'drive-by'. Some application as for CCW-license?

You can't argue gun-laws and applying your own statistics for another country. Understand this: THE UK ISN'T THE SAME AS MINI-US!

[Geezah]

Don't feed the tr0ll.

Arrrhhhh........so I'm a Troll for highlighting how flawed the British mentality towards curbing gun crime is?
Hey, I know what lets outlaw fireworks, amazing, this just increases everyones desire to get to France to pick up some of the great bangers they sell over there!

Like I said from the start "supply and demand".

[gilgoul]

With a total ban on firearms in the UK, I believe this story was fabricated by the Pro-Gun groups because you can't get guns when they're banned :roll:

Anti-gun crime drive is launched

Supporters of a charity set up to fight gun crime are meeting Home Secretary David Blunkett to raise the organisation's profile.

The Disarm Trust was set up in April 2003 in response to increased levels of violent crime involving firearms.

MP Diane Abbott, chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Gun Crime, set up the meeting.

Victims of gun crime and their families were invited to the event on Wednesday, along with celebrity supporters.

Figures from the pop world include So Solid Crew's Charleen and Siobhan, Damon Albarn, Gabrielle and Jamelia.

The police can't fight gun crime on their own

MP Diane Abbott
Other celebrities endorsing the charity include Casualty's Kwame Kwei-Armah and Basketball player John Amaechi.

Disarm was set up after several high-profile shootings across the UK.

Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis were shot dead while celebrating New Year's Eve 2003 in Birmingham.

Liverpool, Manchester, and London also have high levels of violent crime.

In January this year, 19-year-old Nureni Sheikh died after being shot twice in the Moss Side area of Manchester.

'Grassroots level'

This prompted community leaders in the area expressing fears gun crime was on the increase again.

Organiser Ms Abbott said: "The police can't fight gun crime on their own. The community needs to be involved.

"The Disarm Trust has played a key role in mobilising people both nationally and at grassroots level.

"This event will celebrate the first successful year of the trust and look to gain support for its future work."


This is in no way a flame, I'm just highlighting the fact you will never get rid of gun crime, it's all about supply and demand!

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3666499.stm)

Ban the guns, and only the bandits will have some.

[Truthsayer]

Give guns to everyone and make sure the criminals have them.

[Geezah]

American logic: "If all americans have handguns no-one will be able to shoot anyone else, because everyone will be to afraid.

Just make sure convited fellons don't get any, and we in the suburbs will feel save."

Generalising is fun, isn't it?

Btw, if liberal gunlaws are the solution to crimes, and your gunlaws are the best - how come people get murdered in the US?

How can I get a licens for a 'drive-by'. Some application as for CCW-license?

You can't argue gun-laws and applying your own statistics for another country. Understand this: THE UK ISN'T THE SAME AS MINI-US!

Your first statement was so true but I don't know if it's fear more a case of not knowing!

Amazing.......so you think that every gun owner is party to drive bys?:cantbeli:

People are murdered all over the World because we don't live in a classless society and until the time that that changes the liyttle man should be allowed to protect himself!

So long as the crims don't know who owns a firearm, society will be that much safer than if they knew no-one was allowed to own one.
I have no clue who does and who doesn't own a firearm on my street, that is a deciding factor allot of the time for potential criminals, for some reason they're not too hot on getting shot!

The only way "you" would come close to getting a firearm over here is out of the trunk of a car sold to you illegally! unless you moved here legally?

[king_nothing100]

We still have semi-auto in .22 iirc. seen a .22 SLR.


Are the people owning guns under license commiting crimes?

Pretty idiotic this question if you ask me. Owning a gun under a license how can that be that hard for you to answer? Or do you mean the people who have licesned firearms using them in crimes. Doubt most of them are imagine trying to rob an off lisence with a SMLE No. 4. Most crimes are unlisenced illegal ones, handguns and the such.

[Geezah]

Give guns to everyone and make sure the criminals have them.

Or as they say in the UK, only give guns to the criminals? rofl

Are you that blind to see how flawed "your" logic is?

Someone breaks into my house I can (A)confront the bad guy and protect my family or (B)hide somewhere and hope he doesn't discover me or my Wife and just leaves?

What would you do if you were given a choice of tools?

[Steve Andrews]

They'll be banning drugs next!!

[king_nothing100]

Give guns to everyone and make sure the criminals have them.

Or as they say in the UK, only give guns to the criminals? rofl

Are you that blind to see how flawed "your" logic is?

Someone breaks into my house I can (A)confront the bad guy and protect my family or (B)hide somewhere and hope he doesn't discover me or my Wife and just leaves?

What would you do if you were given a choice of tools?

Well B is only the real choice mainly because you smash the robber in the face with a pan you get done with ABH or GBH then sued for damages.

[Geezah]

We still have semi-auto in .22 iirc. seen a .22 SLR.


Are the people owning guns under license commiting crimes?

Pretty idiotic this question if you ask me. Owning a gun under a license how can that be that hard for you to answer? Or do you mean the people who have licesned firearms using them in crimes. Doubt most of them are imagine trying to rob an off lisence with a SMLE No. 4. Most crimes are unlisenced illegal ones, handguns and the such.

Sorry.....it's sarcasm, I know the answer.

I think it's a joke that even though the government have put heavier and heavier restrictions on owning firearms and protecting oneself, criminals are still getting hold of guns?
Why are people over there happy with becoming a victim?

It's almost like ID cards, that's another joke, you have CCTV everywhere but still crime happens, so they come up with another bright idea which will do nothing...hey everyone say hello to "1984"

[Geezah]

Give guns to everyone and make sure the criminals have them.

Or as they say in the UK, only give guns to the criminals? rofl

Are you that blind to see how flawed "your" logic is?

Someone breaks into my house I can (A)confront the bad guy and protect my family or (B)hide somewhere and hope he doesn't discover me or my Wife and just leaves?

What would you do if you were given a choice of tools?

Well B is only the real choice mainly because you smash the robber in the face with a pan you get done with ABH or GBH then sued for damages.

Which is the root of the problem you give potential criminals something else to worry about, someone breaks into my house they will be looking down the barrel of a 12GA, then it's down to them how far the situations escalates.
I will not take a chance on my Wife's life, we're only given one and it's short enough as it is.

What ever happened to "a mans home being his castle"?

[Commander Cool]

What ever happened to "a mans home being his castle"?
You obviously aren't married.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Geezah what really is your problem with the UK and its firearm laws lets face it your not coming back here you have made that very clear, we have been over the UK firearm laws time and time again. You have adopted a very simplistic approach to firearms, gun crime and the UK policy towards both.
Go troll somewhere else. :bash:

[Geezah]

What ever happened to "a mans home being his castle"?
You obviously aren't married.

Sorry.....wishful thinking :D

[Geezah]

Geezah what really is your problem with the UK and its firearm laws lets face it your not coming back here you have made that very clear, we have been over the UK firearm laws time and time again. You have adopted a very simplistic approach to firearms, gun crime and the UK policy towards both.
Go troll somewhere else. :bash:

If you see the UKs way of doing things as working please educate me, rather than call me a Troll show me where my information is incorrect?
As far as having a problem, it worries me that there are some people that see what goes on over there as working and I'm scared that the antis over here will adopt the same ideas thinking it works!

As far as coming back, vacation but to live....doubt it!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Since semi auto full bore rifles and handguns have been banned there have been no nut jobs shooting kids in primary schools. The police are doing everything possible to get guns out of the hands of criminals, if there is something we have got its a first class police force I have every faith in them. When handguns were allowed you were not allowed to use them against intruders, I live in rural area and firearms are plentiful we have a large number of registered shotguns in my region so we are not disarmed. Before you harp on about how we are not allowed to defend yourself in the UK start reading up on the laws of the countries that make up the UK before you make any rash statements. You keep dragging this topic up Geezah and its buried time and time again because we don't give a flying f*ck about concealed carry and the right to bear arms, firearms ownership is a privilege in the the UK not a right and getting a firearms certificate is not that hard if your deemed fit enough to own one, in fact its harder to get a game dealer's license.
Do I feel safe in the UK the answer is yes and as for the "1984" quip you made on another post I have got news for you the US is fast catching up on the UK on CCTV and Homeland security is a big money industry so you can expect to be much better surveilled than we in the future. ;)

[FallenAngel]

The US has nut-job teenagers killing eachother in schools because their parents did not follow the law.

Weapons should be kept locked up with some sort of trigger-gaurd at the minimum and the ammo stored in another part of the house. Most of these tragedies occur when the kid takes dad's fully loaded gun from under the bed to school.

Some of the safest places in the US are in neighborhoods where (responsible) gun owndership is rampant. Hand guns, "assault rifles", shotguns.....whatever it is.

[cut]

They'll be banning drugs next!!

spot on, simply put, I'm with Steve

[Geezah]

I live in rural area and firearms are plentiful we have a large number of registered shotguns in my region so we are not disarmed.
we don't give a flying f*ck about concealed carry and the right to bear arms

I wasn't aware that so many people owned firearms still, that's good, so you're getting some of your rights back and seeing as you don't have to keep them locked up or are subject to spot checks by the Police it looks like it's going in the right direction! ;)


Who said anything about concealed carry on this thread? I didn't, I just highlighted the fact that there shouldn't be any illegal guns in the UK because of the ban? So where are they all coming from if the ban works?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I wasn't aware that so many people owned firearms still
Do your homework.


that's good, so you're getting some of your rights back
We never lost our rights as there is no right to firearms owenership its a privilege not a right.

and seeing as you don't have to keep them locked up or are subject to spot checks by the Police it looks like it's going in the right direction!
Its not only mandatory that firearms are safely locked away its also common sense.



I just highlighted the fact that there shouldn't be any illegal guns in the UK because of the ban? So where are they all coming from if the ban works?
As mentioned by Steve earlier "they will be banning drugs next".

[Geezah]

I wasn't aware that so many people owned firearms still.

Do your homework.

So how many would you say?


that's good, so you're getting some of your rights back.

We never lost our rights as there is no right to firearms owenership its a privilege not a right.

That's right....and so's breathing right?


and seeing as you don't have to keep them locked up or are subject to spot checks by the Police it looks like it's going in the right direction!

Its not only mandatory that firearms are safely locked away its also common sense.!

So you're telling me that your not required by law to have them locked up and your not subject to being spot checked by the Police to make sure?



I just highlighted the fact that there shouldn't be any illegal guns in the UK because of the ban? So where are they all coming from if the ban works?

As mentioned by Steve earlier "they will be banning drugs next".

Just a catch 22 :) the good guys are the ones suffering :cantbeli:

[Chris1]

Don't like it?
Leave
oh wait, you already have
Everybody's happy!
Now **** off

[SteelHand]

We have the same problem here in Australia. They banned certain types of handguns, bought them back off the owners & now we have had a surge in handgun crime over the past 9 months.

SteelHand.

[Geezah]

We have the same problem here in Australia. They banned certain types of handguns, bought them back off the owners & now we have had a surge in handgun crime over the past 9 months.

SteelHand.

One of my contacts in Aus was telling me that there seems to be allot of in fighting between Palestinian immigrants using firearms? He sent me a link a while back to the news over there, he's located in Wetherill Park N.S.W.

[California Joe]

British and US gunsmiths are probably the finest in the world. Although the Italians may dispute that..... p-)

[cut]

Germans aren't too shabby

[TacoDelRio]

What's Australia's current situation on firearms? I thought they banned them too, although others say they own .22lr rifles, hunting rifles, etc.

Pro-gun? You mean someone who enjoys the fact that they have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms as an American citizen? Pro-gun is just what gun-hating individuals call us. Or "gun-nuts", implying that we are mentally unstable.

Take away a country's weapons, and thye lose the ability to defend themselves. (Cause, you know, there's no such thing as a country being invaded, or someone brekaing into your house with a weapon.) :fork:

Also, I keep seeing more and more British citizens (badly worded?) acting like guns are such horrible things, like implements of the devil or something. Damn. That's pretty sad when someone agrees that they themselves shoudln't be allowed to own something, and that the government should protect them from themselves. :cantbeli:

In no way do I mean ALL british people. Note how I said "MORE AND MORE", implying a supposed increase.

Just my $0.50

DB p-)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

British and US gunsmiths are probably the finest in the world. Although the Italians may dispute that..... p-)
Our local gunsmith does some nice rifles.
http://www.jacksonrifles.com/images/Nesika_243.JPG

www.jacksonrifles.com

[American Patriot]

The British people traded freedom for 'security'. Now look at them, hahaha

[cut]

The British people traded freedom for 'security'. Now look at them, hahaha

indeed look at us, and let me say this, there were more people admitted to hospital with gunshot wounds in florida alone then in the whole of the rest of the devlopped world put together.

I have never know there to be a armed robbery in vicinity of the places I've lived in Britain.

[Geezah]

The British people traded freedom for 'security'. Now look at them, hahaha

indeed look at us, and let me say this, there were more people admitted to hospital with gunshot wounds in florida alone then in the whole of the rest of the devlopped world put together.

I have never know there to be a armed robbery in vicinity of the places I've lived in Britain.


Police force Gun crime 2001-2002 Gun crime 2000-2001
Kent 60 109


This was taken from the BBCs website, 60 shootings in 01-02 and 109 00-01.

[Geezah]

British and US gunsmiths are probably the finest in the world. Although the Italians may dispute that..... p-)

I will say, I want an Acuracy International so bad I can taste it but I think my Wife would kill me if I did, they're around $4000-6000 over here.

[Geezah]

Germans aren't too shabby

Don't forget the Swiss either!

[cut]

The British people traded freedom for 'security'. Now look at them, hahaha

indeed look at us, and let me say this, there were more people admitted to hospital with gunshot wounds in florida alone then in the whole of the rest of the devlopped world put together.

I have never know there to be a armed robbery in vicinity of the places I've lived in Britain.


Police force Gun crime 2001-2002 Gun crime 2000-2001
Kent 60 109


This was taken from the BBCs website, 60 shootings in 01-02 and 109 00-01.

60 in a whole year, in a whole county, that's not bad at all.

Anyway, I've only been living in kent since late 02, so that doesn't apply :P

don't make me search the figures for dayton, ohio

[martinexsquaddie]

did'nt anyone spot the irony of having a member of the so solid crew on an anti gun platform :roll:
one of them went to jail for having a converted air pistol on them rofl
this is more about black on black urban crime. But of course as the US has the right to bear arms they have no urban crime level at all rofl
right geezah rofl

[ShadowNeo]

That's right....and so's breathing right?

I can't believe you are comparing the Right to own a weapon to being able to breath. :cantbeli: . On the other hand, it shows how "essential" guns are to you, a mindset that is somewhat different to the majority of the population of the UK.

[Geezah]

The British people traded freedom for 'security'. Now look at them, hahaha

indeed look at us, and let me say this, there were more people admitted to hospital with gunshot wounds in florida alone then in the whole of the rest of the devlopped world put together.

I have never know there to be a armed robbery in vicinity of the places I've lived in Britain.


Police force Gun crime 2001-2002 Gun crime 2000-2001
Kent 60 109


This was taken from the BBCs website, 60 shootings in 01-02 and 109 00-01.

60 in a whole year, in a whole county, that's not bad at all.

Anyway, I've only been living in kent since late 02, so that doesn't apply :P

don't make me search the figures for dayton, ohio

They're on the FBI website, I can put them on if you like, I also have the figures for Met as well actually I have them for the whole of England and it's pretty pi$$ poor!

[Geezah]

did'nt anyone spot the irony of having a member of the so solid crew on an anti gun platform :roll:
one of them went to jail for having a converted air pistol on them rofl
this is more about black on black urban crime. But of course as the US has the right to bear arms they have no urban crime level at all rofl
right geezah rofl

There was a shooting on the Kings Road just the other day(unable to find anything in the papers on it) two youngsters shot another man and killed him, it's getting to the point where is stupid the criminals have nothing to fear, they obviously don't respect the Police so what hope if there? As far as it just being black urban crime, have you ever thought that may be the side of it that's in the publics eye more? What the media "decides" to put out!

[Geezah]

That's right....and so's breathing right?

I can't believe you are comparing the Right to own a weapon to being able to breath. :cantbeli: . On the other hand, it shows how "essential" guns are to you, a mindset that is somewhat different to the majority of the population of the UK.

Life is not a privilege it's a RIGHT, gun ownership is a tool which enforces the RIGHT to life.
Why is it you guys are so content with putting your life in the hands of the law when they cannot be there to protect you 24/7, I'm not saying people should be vigilantes but come on, people become victims but you guys think it's ok to pick up the pieces after the fact!

[Geezah]

Gun crime: Has anything changed?


If you want to stop gun culture in urban areas - how young do you need to start to keep the kids on the right track? Fifteen? Twelve? Or 10? Try five years old says Bill Brown, chairman of the Disarm Trust.

Gun crime was once something that seemed to be mostly far away - more New York than Birmingham.

But with the report into the September 2003 shooting of seven-year-old Toni-Ann Byfield revealing she was an innocent victim in the middle of an apparent drugs gang feud, pressure continues from within communities for those who hold the guns to put them down for good.

Gun crime rose up the national agenda in 2002 after a string of deaths in some of the poorest neighbourhoods of London and Manchester.

But it was with the January 2003 deaths of Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis in Birmingham that urban gun crime was recognised a national crisis.

So what's changed since then? One gun amnesty and increased police resources later, there is hope.

The gun amnesty didn't bring in the weapons which needed to come off the streets - and there were still killings in 2003. But it started people talking. The Home Office put money into a new black-community led charity, the Disarm Trust.

And among the community workers, politicians and families of victims who gathered at the House of Commons to mark the body's first anniversary, there is hope the tide can be turned.

Positive figures

Last Updated: Thursday, 29 April, 2004, 09:12 GMT 10:12 UK

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Gun crime: Has anything changed?

By Dominic Casciani
BBC News Online community affairs reporter


If you want to stop gun culture in urban areas - how young do you need to start to keep the kids on the right track? Fifteen? Twelve? Or 10? Try five years old says Bill Brown, chairman of the Disarm Trust.
Gun crime was once something that seemed to be mostly far away - more New York than Birmingham.


Charlene Ellis and Letisha Shakespeare: Killed January 2003

But with the report into the September 2003 shooting of seven-year-old Toni-Ann Byfield revealing she was an innocent victim in the middle of an apparent drugs gang feud, pressure continues from within communities for those who hold the guns to put them down for good.

Gun crime rose up the national agenda in 2002 after a string of deaths in some of the poorest neighbourhoods of London and Manchester.

You have to be optimistic - if you are not, then everything that Letisha stood for dies - she would have died in vain

Sandra Shakespeare, aunt of Letisha Shakespeare
But it was with the January 2003 deaths of Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis in Birmingham that urban gun crime was recognised a national crisis.

So what's changed since then? One gun amnesty and increased police resources later, there is hope.

The gun amnesty didn't bring in the weapons which needed to come off the streets - and there were still killings in 2003. But it started people talking. The Home Office put money into a new black-community led charity, the Disarm Trust.

And among the community workers, politicians and families of victims who gathered at the House of Commons to mark the body's first anniversary, there is hope the tide can be turned.

Positive figures

The latest figures from the Metropolitan Police show that things are improving. In areas covered by Operation Trident, the specialist gun crime unit within black communities, the murder rate halved in the year to April 2004 - down from 24 to 12.

Attempted murders have fallen by a fifth (from 60 to 47). Gun-related violent crime across all of London has falled by 7%.

The West Midlands has also seen a drop in gun use

The Disarm Trust has funded more than a dozen projects nationwide and forged links with similar organisations in the US.

But, says Bill Brown, the key remains destroying the growing myth that a gang lifestyle is the only way to success for young men from disadvantaged backgrounds.

And if you are going to break the hold of gang culture - and the slide into criminality and drugs which often comes with it - then you have to catch them young.

"Before the two girls were shot in Birmingham, I think it was seen as turf wars, black-on-black, between drug dealers," said Mr Brown.

"But we found, more than anything, the exclusion of young black males is behind gun crime. We found out that more black men are being incarcerated than going to university.

"There are missing fathers. There are no role models in the lives of these people, no mentors. This is a deep rooted social problem."

Challenge gun culture

In May 2003, Hackney MP Dianne Abbott and others founded the All Parliamentary Group on Gun Crime (APGG).

Its first report called for new witness protection schemes and a ban on imitation firearms which can be converted in a backroom workshop.

It also called on police to review intelligence systems which have led to some believing some of the gun-carriers are getting away with it by becoming informers.

But Ms Abbott said some of the most important moves had to come from within the community.

"This is not just about guns," she said. "It is about the fact that we have an urban culture that revolves around guns.

"We have some young men who don't feel properly dressed up for an evening without being 'tooled-up'

"Gun crime is not a black issue or a London issue. It's a people issue.

"Where we have drugs and disaffection we have the possibility of gun crime as we have seen in Nottingham, Birmingham and elsewhere."

Sandra Shakespeare, aunt of Letisha Shakespeare agrees. She said people within her community had to stand up and be counted and challenge those who believe they are beyond the law.

"You have to be optimistic. If you are not, then everything that Letisha stood for dies. She would have died in vain," said Mrs Shakespeare.

Change had started with women speaking out and taking the lead. Key women within the anti-gun lobby spent part of last year in the US learning from the experiences of communities there, said Mrs Shakespeare.

"I don't think the problem was ignored [by politicians], but it was on the back burner.

"I don't think everyone saw it as a real problem for the whole community.

But when my niece was killed, that was a big wake-up call. Birmingham had exploded with guns and people starting thinking they were untouchable.

"You couldn't ignore it anymore."

OP TRIDENT SEIZURES 2003
333 firearms
1,037 rounds of ammunition
44.3kg of Class A drugs
£480,165 in cash
179 people charged
Source: Metropolitan Police

That pressure from families for change may have improved co-operation with the police. Trident officers have bluntly told communities in the past they cannot take gunmen off the streets if people are not prepared to trust the police with information.

Today, more people now appear willing to talk. In 2001 it solved just three killings. Last year enough people came forward to help officers bring killers to justice in 14 murders - two more than were committed in 2003.

But Sandra Shakespeare says one of the biggest changes is going to take time - and that involves men themselves and how they bring up children. "Men should stand up and take responsibility. It takes more than sowing a seed to be a dad.

"Learn how to walk and hold your head up high and say this is the true way to be a man."


BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3667985.stm)

[Geezah]

Violent crime figures rise by 11%

Violent crimes recorded by the police rose by 11% in the last quarter of last year, Home Office figures show.

The government said much of the increase was due to greater reporting and recording of low-level thuggery - which rose by 21%.

Overall crime levels remain stable, the figures show.

The Home Office has unveiled a plan to deal with binge-drinking in town and city centres, which ministers say is responsible for much of the crime.

Overall there were 271,500 incidents of violent crime recorded by police in England and Wales from October to December 2003.

More serious violent crimes such as homicide and serious wounding rose by 13%, compared to the same quarter in 2002, while "less serious" violent crime such as assaults was up 21% to 106,000 incidents.

The Home Office attribute much of the rise to low-level drunken violence where no-one is injured.

They also say people are more willing to report certain crimes such as ****** assaults, which are up by 6%.

Total crime remained stable with 1,452,600 incidents recorded over three months.

Home Office minister Hazel Blears said the figures were encouraging.

"Crime overall is stable and I am pleased that crimes such as burglary, robbery and vehicle crime are continuing to fall significantly.

"But it is clear from these figures that crime trends are changing.

"There are increases in violent crime and, as our research on violent crime makes clear, this needs to be put into context."

The Home Office estimates alcohol is the root cause of around half of all violent crime, and connected to 70% of late-night admissions to hospital emergency rooms.

To help deal with the problem, Ms Blears said police would be carrying out sting operations to tackle shops and clubs selling to underage drinkers.

CHANGE IN CRIME RATES: Q4 2002 - Q4 2003
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40096000/gif/_40096121_crime_gra416.gif
The British Crime Survey is based on interviews with the public
Recorded crime represents incidents reported to the police

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3669407.stm#graph)

[cut]

Yes this is a problem, but one which we are prepared to accept since our murder rates, armed robberies, car crime and well crime in general is far lower then that of the US even if you measure it per capita.

[cut]

The British people traded freedom for 'security'. Now look at them, hahaha

indeed look at us, and let me say this, there were more people admitted to hospital with gunshot wounds in florida alone then in the whole of the rest of the devlopped world put together.

I have never know there to be a armed robbery in vicinity of the places I've lived in Britain.


Police force Gun crime 2001-2002 Gun crime 2000-2001
Kent 60 109


This was taken from the BBCs website, 60 shootings in 01-02 and 109 00-01.

60 in a whole year, in a whole county, that's not bad at all.

Anyway, I've only been living in kent since late 02, so that doesn't apply :P

don't make me search the figures for dayton, ohio

They're on the FBI website, I can put them on if you like, I also have the figures for Met as well actually I have them for the whole of England and it's pretty pi$$ poor!

why don't **** off and become american then, we're happy with our country that's why we still live here, what is the point of moaning your bollocks off if it's not going chage our opinion, WE DON'T CARE. Britiain is far safer then the US.

[Geezah]

The British people traded freedom for 'security'. Now look at them, hahaha

indeed look at us, and let me say this, there were more people admitted to hospital with gunshot wounds in florida alone then in the whole of the rest of the devlopped world put together.

I have never know there to be a armed robbery in vicinity of the places I've lived in Britain.


Police force Gun crime 2001-2002 Gun crime 2000-2001
Kent 60 109


This was taken from the BBCs website, 60 shootings in 01-02 and 109 00-01.

60 in a whole year, in a whole county, that's not bad at all.

Anyway, I've only been living in kent since late 02, so that doesn't apply :P

don't make me search the figures for dayton, ohio

They're on the FBI website, I can put them on if you like, I also have the figures for Met as well actually I have them for the whole of England and it's pretty pi$$ poor!

why don't f*** off and become american then, we're happy with our country that's why we still live here, what is the point of moaning your bollocks off if it's not going chage our opinion, WE DON'T CARE. Britiain is far safer then the US.

Well I guess that says it all, when you have nothing to offer just throw out the insults, well as far as becoming American that's in the works.

The "WE DON"T CARE" attitude is infectious really don't you think, that's why Britain is going to the dogs!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The "WE DON"T CARE" attitude is infectious really don't you think, that's why Britain is going to the dogs!
With your attitude Geezah I am glad you left, if you came back you would be as welcome as Dr Hook.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1560000/images/_1564626_hamza150.jpg
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030406/wd4.jpg

[Geezah]

The "WE DON"T CARE" attitude is infectious really don't you think, that's why Britain is going to the dogs!
With your attitude Geezah I am glad you left, if you came back you would be as welcome as Captain Hook.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1560000/images/_1564626_hamza150.jpg
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030406/wd4.jpg

This is what really amazes me, you have nothing to put out there on how things are changing apart from telling me that I'm as welcome as that piece of scum!
What ever happened to the days of being able to leave your front door open in the Summer or hanging your front door key on a priece of string behind your letterbox. This has all changed because of how lenient the government has become towards crime!
Now rather than insulting and focusing on me why don't you step outside the box for a minute and look around and tell me things haven't changed?

If I had my way ol Captain Hook would be tried for sedition!

[cut]

what the **** do you want? what is the point of this?

[ShadowNeo]

What ever happened to the days of being able to leave your front door open in the Summer or hanging your front door key on a priece of string behind your letterbox. This has all changed because of how lenient the government has become towards crime!

Err, I have my front door open all the time in the summer while I'm gardening, thankfully I don't have to expect a robber armed with a gun to challenge me while im engaging in my horticultural activities.

As for leaving house keys in obvious places, I think the lack of this nowadays is more down to common sense than anything else ;).

[Geezah]

what the f*** do you want? what is the point of this?

Hey....I'm just responding to you guys!

[Geezah]

What ever happened to the days of being able to leave your front door open in the Summer or hanging your front door key on a priece of string behind your letterbox. This has all changed because of how lenient the government has become towards crime!


As for leaving house keys in obvious places, I think the lack of this nowadays is more down to common sense than anything else ;).

That's right common sense!

I think I'm going to leave this one alone now and just say that I'm willing to agree to disagree!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Hey....I'm just responding to you guys!
And who kicked this thread off Geezah.

[Geezah]

Hey....I'm just responding to you guys!
And who kicked this thread off Geezah.

?????

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Hey....I'm just responding to you guys!
And who kicked this thread off Geezah.

?????
In other words who started this thread, you seem to bring this old chestnut up on a regular basis for what reason I do not know.

[cut]

last time we discussed this topic to death and got nowhere, what is the point in doing it all over again, for the last time we don't care what you think geezah.

[Geezah]

Hey....I'm just responding to you guys!
And who kicked this thread off Geezah.

?????
In other words who started this thread, you seem to bring this old chestnut up on a regular basis for what reason I do not know.

???????

[cut]

hint: check the first post

[king_nothing100]

I want the ban lifted on semi-autos, but I know gun's are a privilidge here and not a right. I so badly want an L1A1 but I doubt the ban will ever be lifted so I wont be getting one living in this country.

[Geezah]

last time we discussed this topic to death and got nowhere, what is the point in doing it all over again, for the last time we don't care what you think geezah.

You're telling me you don't care then why post on a subject you have no interest in?
The subject in hand concerns me as I still have allot of family members that reside in the UK so if "YOU DON"T CARE THEN DON"T POST" me I'll keep on caring!

[ShadowNeo]

The subject in hand concerns me as I still have allot of family members that reside in the UK so if "YOU DON"T CARE THEN DON"T POST" me I'' keep on caring!

If you really are concerned, coldn't you join some pro-gun group in the UK or something? Might get better results than argueing on the internet :| .

[cut]

last time we discussed this topic to death and got nowhere, what is the point in doing it all over again, for the last time we don't care what you think geezah.

You're telling me you don't care then why post on a subject you have no interest in?
The subject in hand concerns me as I still have allot of family members that reside in the UK so if "YOU DON"T CARE THEN DON"T POST" me I'll keep on caring!

what I do care about is you spreading misinformation giveing the wrong idea of what life in Britain is like. Why do you bare such a grudge against you're homeland and then fly the union jack. If you don't like Britain then fine, it's not going to change so you may aswell become American.

[Geezah]

last time we discussed this topic to death and got nowhere, what is the point in doing it all over again, for the last time we don't care what you think geezah.

You're telling me you don't care then why post on a subject you have no interest in?
The subject in hand concerns me as I still have allot of family members that reside in the UK so if "YOU DON"T CARE THEN DON"T POST" me I'll keep on caring!

what I do care about is you spreading misinformation giveing the wrong idea of what life in Britain is like. Why do you bare such a grudge against you're homeland and then fly the union jack. If you don't like Britain then fine, it's not going to change so you may aswell become American.

I'm not spreading misinformation unless you mean what the BBC are putting out to the public?, as far as giving the wrong impression of what life in Britain is like, I don't know or care how old you are or what you've experienced but maybe after time you may change your mind.
Baring a grudge against my homeland, I bare no such grudge against the place I was born, I'm proud to be British and if it were possible I would fly the British flag upside down because of how passionate I am about what's happening to Britain!
The Government does what it wants even if the people aren't happy, Poll Tax, Council Tax, Congestion Charge, ID Cards even moving the route of Notting Hill Carnival? CCTV, Red route, Speed Camera's in low accident areas, even the TV license seems ridiculous now!
When I lived in the UK I was happy because I hadn't experienced the freedoms we have over here, coming for a holiday is one thing but actually getting a hands on experience is something else.
"Brisitsh by Birth, English by the Grace of God" and proud of it but not what's happening to the people or the Country

[cut]

last time we discussed this topic to death and got nowhere, what is the point in doing it all over again, for the last time we don't care what you think geezah.

You're telling me you don't care then why post on a subject you have no interest in?
The subject in hand concerns me as I still have allot of family members that reside in the UK so if "YOU DON"T CARE THEN DON"T POST" me I'll keep on caring!

what I do care about is you spreading misinformation giveing the wrong idea of what life in Britain is like. Why do you bare such a grudge against you're homeland and then fly the union jack. If you don't like Britain then fine, it's not going to change so you may aswell become American.

I'm not spreading misinformation unless you mean what the BBC are putting out to the public?, as far as giving the wrong impression of what life in Britain is like, I don't know or care how old you are or what you've experienced but maybe after time you may change your mind.
Baring a grudge against my homeland, I bare no such grudge against the place I was born, I'm proud to be British and if it were possible I would fly the British flag upside down because of how passionate I am about what's happening to Britain!
The Government does what it wants even if the people aren't happy, Poll Tax, Council Tax, Congestion Charge, ID Cards even moving the route of Notting Hill Carnival? CCTV, Red route, Speed Camera's in low accident areas, even the TV license seems ridiculous now!
When I lived in the UK I was happy because I hadn't experienced the freedoms we have over here, coming for a holiday is one thing but actually getting a hands on experience is something else.
"Brisitsh by Birth, English by the Grace of God" and proud of it but not what's happening to the people or the Country

you are British by country, not by nation, you disagree with everything that both conservativce and new labour governments have brought, we cannot go any further right-wing, fees for students etc.. what do you want old labour? socialism? what?