Estonia to deport 88 year old ex-NKVD agent

[tyovan]

Estonia's Supreme Court has dismissed an appeal against the expulsion of an 88-year-old ex-Soviet secret policeman convicted of crimes against humanity.

Vasily Beskov was given an eight-year suspended jail sentence in 1999 for his part in deporting some 20,000 Estonians to Siberia under Stalin in 1949.

Despite living in Estonia for decades, he remains a Russian citizen. He was ordered to leave the country last year.

The court said no exceptions could be made for crimes against humanity.

Mr Beskov was a member of the NKVD, the forerunner of the KGB.

Three other men in their late eighties are also facing possible expulsion.

Uncertainty

But it is not certain that Mr Beskov will be forced to leave the country, the BBC's Laura Sheeter reports from neighbouring Latvia.

The Estonian government, which has the final decision on the matter, says it will take into account their age and long-established family ties to the country when considering whether or not to enforce the ruling.

Estonia-Russia ties have been strained in recent months over plans by the Estonian government to dismantle a Soviet war memorial in Tallinn.

According to Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip, preparatory work on removing the monument in the centre of the city has already begun.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said on Friday that relations between the two countries would be seriously affected if the plan goes ahead.

Estonia regained its independence from the Soviet Union in 1991 after what it sees as 50 years of occupation.

Post-Soviet tensions with Russia have emerged over the status of Estonia's large Russian-speaking minority, which Moscow says Estonia discriminates against. Estonia has denied this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6484623.stm

I think if he's sorry for what he did, Estonia should show mercy and allow him to stay in peace in Estonia for his final years of life. If he's unrepentant, I can understand why Estonia would want to deport him.

[LaoSexMachine]

convicted of crimes against humanity.

I don't know what Estonia considers a crime against humanity but people who are convicted of these crimes should not be given mercy. Pay for your sins.

[asch]

i just hope that it's not a crime of chosing wrong side.

[Switek]

All crimes should be sentenced and punished. In this case it's very positive that criminal found a justice. But in other hand I don't think that in this particular situation the judgment should be executed

[Beast]

i just hope that it's not a crime of chosing wrong side.

What part of "Vasily Beskov was given an eight-year suspended jail sentence in 1999 for his part in deporting some 20,000 Estonians to Siberia under Stalin in 1949. " dont you understand?

[Lokos]

Vasily Beskov was given an eight-year suspended jail sentence in 1999 for his part in deporting some 20,000 Estonians to Siberia under Stalin in 1949.

And what was his part?

Lokos

[Mamont]

What part of "Vasily Beskov was given an eight-year suspended jail sentence in 1999 for his part in deporting some 20,000 Estonians to Siberia under Stalin in 1949. " dont you understand?

Why someone must understand clear and open lie?

[lightfire]

Why someone must understand clear and open lie?

? which part lies? there were no deportations and noone is responsible for that?

[Kilgor]

? which part lies? there were no deportations and noone is responsible for that?

Only Germans herded human cattle into box cars remember.. :roll:

[Mamont]

? which part lies? there were no deportations and noone is responsible for that?
Lies:
1. 20000 deported
2. Deported to Syberia.
Well, on the other hand it can be simplification, but it's an old man involved here.

And again, strangely, in the wake of the speech "no exceptions could be made for crimes against humanity" no former nazi-collaborators were trialed.

[Kippari]

Lies:
1. 20000 deported
2. Deported to Syberia.
Well, on the other hand it can be simplification, but it's an old man involved here.

And again, strangely, in the wake of the speech "no exceptions could be made for crimes against humanity" no former nazi-collaborators were trialed.

You sir don't even try to understand how Estonians feel about the former Soviet Union. Nazis didn't occupy their country and forced people to leave against their will, but Soviets did. They, like most of the people here, feel that Stalin was just as bad as Hitler. The Soviet regime was very oppressive against minorities and Estonians were no exception. That's why they feel that such former pro-soviet Russians, who don't even want to be Estonians do not belong in their country.

[asch]

That's why they feel that such former pro-soviet Russians, who don't even want to be Estonians do not belong in their country.
so, it's justified all this 8 years fvckup of old man's life? hell yeah, all praise justice.
he got his "guilty" verdict in 1999, if i am right?
and some weird shyte about situation at all: another 3 old men (Petr Kisly, Yuri Karpov and Vladimir Penart) awaiting verdict in same case. Petr and Yuri married with Estonian citizens and Penart is ethnical estonian at all. it would be total circus if Estnian Supreme Court got them deported.
and where to?

[Crassus]

and where to?

Siberia would be ironic.

[Kilgor]

so, it's justified all this 8 years fvckup of old man's life? hell yeah, all praise justice.


There should be no sunset on justice for the worst crimes against humanity. Same with the nazis, the worst should always be brought to justice.. no matter how long.

[asch]

Siberia would be ironic.

sorry, no more GULAGs here. just a lot of different cities.

[asch]

There should be no sunset on justice for the worst crimes against humanity.
sure, very useful category. you can put here a lot of different cases, to suit present times.

[kosse]

I don't get at all what you Russians are bitching about again. If you have doubts about the fairness of the trial I am sure you can get your hands on the court decision. Such records are usually public in western countries.

[Lokos]

If you have doubts about the fairness of the trial I am sure you can get your hands on the court decision. Such records are usually public in western countries

You do a lot of trash talking, don't you?

Court decisions are also public in Russia. In fact, the entire process can be rather overly transparent.


You sir don't even try to understand how Estonians feel about the former Soviet Union

And you, sir, don't even try to understand how Russians feel about those who enlisted in the SS - and organisation deemed 'criminal' by the post-WW2 trials. Why aren't you trying these gentlemen, too? Is it only a crime if it harms ethnic Estonians?

Lokos

[kosse]

You do a lot of trash talking, don't you?

Lokos

What exactly was "trash" in my reply? Are you implying that I am lying about the court records being public?

[Lokos]

I'm accusing you of implying that there is a lack of transparency in Russian courts. In this case, an implication by omission (the exclusion of relevant parties in the statement 'In the West...').

Lokos

[kosse]

I'm accusing you of implying that there is a lack of transparency in Russian courts. In this case, an implication by omission (the exclusion of relevant parties in the statement 'In the West...').

Lokos
Wow. That is something you totally made up by yourself. I suggest you take those Soviet colored glasses off and read my reply again when you are in a bit more objective state of mind.



And you, sir, don't even try to understand how Russians feel about those who enlisted in the SS - and organisation deemed 'criminal' by the post-WW2 trials. Why aren't you trying these gentlemen, too? Is it only a crime if it harms ethnic Estonians?


I'm quite sure that Soviets dealt with the criminal element of the Waffen SS divisions after the war. And like said many times - conscripted Estonian Waffen SS formations were not found guilty of war crimes.

[asch]

I don't get at all what you Russians are bitching about again.
it's obivious that you "don't get".
i try to enlight you. every ruling regime has it's own agenda and always oppress remains of previous regime. this, moral values aside, considering normal in modern world. i just think that this case, alone, kinda inhumane. all those witch hunts targeted VERY old men/women, whoever they are
.

[kosse]

it's obivious that you "don't get".
i try to enlight you. every ruling regime has it's own agenda and always oppress remains of previous regime. this, moral values aside, considering normal in modern world. i just think that this case, alone, kinda inhumane. all those witch hunts targeted VERY old men/women, whoever they are
.
Well, old age is no excuse, usually. In my country murder for example is never too old to go before court as long as the accused is healthy enough to stand the trial. Estonians had no chance to convict these people earlier. So they do it now.

[Mamont]

You sir don't even try to understand how Estonians feel about the former Soviet Union.
And really - i don't want to. Truth is, that Estonia or Baltic for that matter was far less influenced by so-called "sovietization", but yet they are the most bitter.



Nazis didn't occupy their country and forced people to leave against their will
That's something new.



They, like most of the people here, feel that Stalin was just as bad as Hitler. The Soviet regime was very oppressive against minorities and Estonians were no exception.

Soviet regime was oppressive to those who oppose him. Like any autoritative goverment.



That's why they feel that such former pro-soviet Russians, who don't even want to be Estonians do not belong in their country.
So much for great human values and very democratic. Resembles Soviet Union in 70xx.. And those nazi-wannabies are welcome?

[kosse]

So much for great human values and very democratic. Resembles Soviet Union in 70xx.. And those nazi-wannabies are welcome? I think there is not any other as welcoming country to nazi-wannabes in the world as Russia. So, before pointing fingers at your neighbours you should make sure you don't have rats running in your own house.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AlexanderBarkashov.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AlexanderBarkashov.jpg

[Mamont]

I think there is not any other as welcoming country to nazi-wannabes in the world as Russia. So, before pointing fingers at your neighbours you should make sure you don't have rats running in your own house.
Indeed. I understand that Russia is The Epitome of Evil and source of world filth, but we a speaking about Estonia here. The situation is quite interesting - hunt for old soviet men and praising old and new nazis.

[kosse]

Indeed. I understand that Russia is The Epitome of Evil and source of world filth, but we a speaking about Estonia here. The situation is quite interesting - hunt for old soviet men and praising old and new nazis.
Well, I certainly don't find Russia that bad - not even close. I think it's a nice country except for foreign policy and a few obvious problems that need fixing. But still..in my opinion you (Russians) have no moral high ground to judge others as long as you don't fix the very same problems in your own country you are accusing your neighbours of.

[Kippari]

Well, I certainly don't find Russia that bad - not even close. I think it's a nice country except for foreign policy and a few obvious problems that need fixing. But still..in my opinion you (Russians) have no moral high ground to judge others as long as you don't fix the very same problems in your own country you are accusing your neighbours of.

Quoted for truth.

Mamont. You just can't try to discuss in a civilized manner, do you? Your replies give away that their writer is an ingorant pr**k.
You are obviously saying that Estonians shouldn't feel bad about the mistreat they got during the WW2 and the cold war. Can't you see that in the eyes of the Estonians that these men, now being accused, are hard criminals? If they don't feel remorse about what they have done, why the hell should the Estonian public tolerate them?

I personally have high hopes for the people and state of Russia and fare all the good for them. unfortunately people like you try to hinder it the best they can.:-( Why do you view the Baltic states Nazist? Does the public television spread out that kind of propaganda or what? I mean where do you get all those ideas you have? I'm very interested to hear them.

[Thorgen]

Let's all remember he got the sentence as suspended, so he didn't actually do any time. After that, it all comes down to his nationality really. When USSR broke up and he chose to be a Russian citizen, he is to be judged on that basis. If he didn't want to become an Estonian in the first place, what is the problem really? In my view they're sending him home, which he chose himself. After all, it's the countries own choice also to determine who it welcomes inside its borders.

[tommy00]

But still..in my opinion you (Russians) have no moral high ground to judge others as long as you don't fix the very same problems in your own country you are accusing your neighbours of.

Ahh,....bullseye;)

[Kilgor]

And you, sir, don't even try to understand how Russians feel about those who enlisted in the SS - and organisation deemed 'criminal' by the post-WW2 trials. Why aren't you trying these gentlemen, too? Is it only a crime if it harms ethnic Estonians?

Lokos

Considering the NKVD harmed many innocent soviet citizens too, why are not you going after them?

No, they get indemnity and a nice pension.

The NKVD committed many of the crimes you accuse the SS off, and was led by a sadist and rapist.

[Corsar]

To Mamont

And again, strangely, in the wake of the speech "no exceptions could be made for crimes against humanity" no former nazi-collaborators were trialed.

Deporting former war criminals out of the country or judging old-aged men as a war criminal is a common habit:
USA:
Rosenbaum said that the case is the result of OSI's ongoing efforts to identify and prosecute former participants in Nazi-sponsored acts of persecution who reside in the United States. To date, 60 Nazi persecutors have been stripped of U.S. citizenship as a result of OSI's efforts, and 48 such persons have been removed from the United States.
Look also:http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/1998/September/426crm.htm

France:
On April 2, 1998, after the longest trial in all of French history, Maurice Papon, aged 87, was found guilty of complicity in "crimes against humanity," and sentenced to ten years' imprisonment as well as ten years' privation of his civic, civil, and family rights.Look also:http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n3p14_Faurisson.html

Lithuania/USA

Antanas Mineiki, Suspected Nazi Collaborator, 80
Published: New York Times, November 30, 1997

Antanas Mineiki, who was stripped of his United States citizenship in 1992 and deported to Lithuania on suspicion of having taken part in Nazi persecution in World War II, died on Monday in a Lithuanian retirement home, press reports said. He was 80. The reports said he died after suffering a heart attack.
He was suspected of organizing reprisals during the Nazi occupation of the Baltic region. He immigrated to the United States, but was deprived of American citizenship in 1992 and deported.

So the Soviet war criminals should be judged as well

[Mamont]

in my opinion you (Russians) have no moral high ground to judge others as long as you don't fix the very same problems in your own country you are accusing your neighbours of.
Well, i'm not russian. And i do not represent nor Russia, nor russian populaion, so no need to speek in plural. And i understand, that any country that has some neo-nazi movement should just tolerate what was going on in Estonia? That leaves us with a very few countries.. But speaking about same problems i understand that you meant old nazi collaborators parade? Or goverment support of neo-nazi movement? Can you point me to those events? And also tell me, when was the last trial of an old man in Russia for crimes against humanity?

Kilgor, sadist and rapist? You must be having another delirium.

Kippari. bear with it. Estonians were almost priviledged. In budget spending, education, self-management. Even in 1951, after all those horrible "crimes against humanity" the bloody and oppressive regime payed estonian worker 1 ruble 50 kop and 1.830gr of seeds for 1 working day while at the same time russian worker received 17 kop. and 890gr of seeds.. Too bad the new independence spawned the unstoppable urge to blame Russia for all the problems. And can you please elaborate your phrase about nazi's?



Deporting former war criminals out of the country or judging old-aged men as a war criminal is a common habit:
USA: So the Soviet war criminals should be judged as well
We talking about Estonia or what?

[Corsar]

To Mamont


We talking about Estonia or what?

Yes, exactly! In Estonia the war criminals are treated the same way, no exeptions!

[Mamont]

To Mamont



Yes, exactly! In Estonia the war criminals are treated the same way, no exeptions!
No exeptions? The exeptions have their parades and museums..

[Switek]

Judgement is necessary, no exeption for soviet and nazi criminals but execution of sentence is completely different. In case of 88 years old criminal mercy should be applied.

Becouse you shouldn't be the same like your oppressors were...

[Corsar]

Judgement is necessary, no exeption for soviet and nazi criminals but execution of sentence is completely different. In case of 88 years old criminal mercy should be applied.

Becouse you shouldn't be the same like your oppressors were...

Yep, You're right. Some humanity is we need here...

[Kilgor]

Kilgor, sadist and rapist? You must be having another delirium.


Beria's savagery is well known. Why he is compared physically and spiritually with Himmler.

[asch]

Beria's savagery is well known. Why he is compared physically and spiritually with Himmler.

yup, them Georgians kinda savage sometimes. a good neighbours for us, evil neo-imperialists.

[Switek]

yup, them Georgians kinda savage sometimes. a good neighbours for us, evil neo-imperialists.

You have a really bad luck with foreigners on soviet service. Iron Felix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Edmundovich_Dzerzhinsky) (founder of soviet secret service) was a Polish nobleman... ;)

[asch]

well, multinational country, that says all.

[Switek]

well, multinational country, that says all.

So your complaints, are rejected!

[Kilgor]

No exeptions? The exeptions have their parades and museums..

As does Russia.

Only 300 turned up for that parade. Thats quite little for a country called "fascist" by Russians.

[Lokos]

Wow. That is something you totally made up by yourself. I suggest you take those Soviet colored glasses off and read my reply again when you are in a bit more objective state of mind.


I 'made' that up, by myself? So what, exactly, did you mean? Did you not exclude Russia from 'the West', when talking about 'Western' court process? I'll remind you that Russia, too, operates under the civil code system of law - like most European states - and considers transparency just as vital to the process.

As for your crack re: my 'Soviet colored glasses'... Stop smoking crack cocaine. If I interpreted your post badly it was due to the clumsiness of your sentence structure, syntax and lexicon, not through any tint in my eyewear. Objectivity does not equal literal interpretation abjectly ignoring implication.


And like said many times - conscripted Estonian Waffen SS formations were not found guilty of war crimes.

The SS, as a whole, was deemed a criminal organization. This includes 'conscripted Estonian Waffen SS formations'. What was 'conscripted' about them, again?


I'm quite sure that Soviets dealt with the criminal element of the Waffen SS divisions after the war.

Is that so? How would that be the case, exactly?


But still..in my opinion you (Russians) have no moral high ground to judge others as long as you don't fix the very same problems in your own country you are accusing your neighbours of.

And what moral 'high ground' do you stand on, as a Finn, to judge the Russians when it comes to anything?


After all, it's the countries own choice also to determine who it welcomes inside its borders.

So you would be an ardent supporter of ethnic cleansing, yes?


Considering the NKVD harmed many innocent soviet citizens too, why are not you going after them?

Because we're talking about a specific gentleman whose alleged 'crimes' have not been proven in any court of law, if I understand the situation correctly. Not the NKVD itself. One member of it. The NKVD was not deemed a criminal organization by anyone or anything, regardless of its actions.


The NKVD committed many of the crimes you accuse the SS off, and was led by a sadist and rapist.

The Wehrmacht committed many of the German atrocities of WW2, the Red Army committed many, the US Army and Air Force committed many, as did the British, as did the Japanese, as did a host of other political factions. Perhaps we should charge all veterans of all armies of the period with unspecified 'you played a part in this or that' crimes?

Loks

[Kilgor]

Because we're talking about a specific gentleman whose alleged 'crimes' have not been proven in any court of law, if I understand the situation correctly. Not the NKVD itself. One member of it. The NKVD was not deemed a criminal organization by anyone or anything, regardless of its actions.


In case you missed it, he was convicted in a Estonian court, guilty of crimes against humanity. So yes, he has been convicted by a court.

As for the NKVD, the Shvernik Commission found stalin (and others) guilty of serious crimes against the soviet state. So we can now call him a criminal by your standards.

[Mamont]

As does Russia.
Only 300 turned up for that parade. Thats quite little for a country called "fascist" by Russians.
Hm, nazi-museums and ss-men parading in Russia? Where and when?

The important point is not the number of participants, but the popular and goverment support.

I'd like to see at least one former omakaitse member convicted...

[Ivan le Fou]

All crimes should be sentenced and punished. In this case it's very positive that criminal found a justice. But in other hand I don't think that in this particular situation the judgment should be executed


Have you heard of Maurice Papon?

He was a french "prefet" under Vichy and signed the deportation's order of many jews (but he quitted shortly after).

Well, at the age of 80 he has been judged and sentenced to 10years of prison.

Many people said it was a ridiculous trial, useless, etc.. And even jews, relatives of those who had been saved by Papon, testified in his favor.

He died in prison last month.

[Thorgen]

So you would be an ardent supporter of ethnic cleansing, yes?

No, but your analysis of my sentence taken out of context and blowing it out of proportions, wont make a good debate. Try bringing the two cents next time, please. The guy is only facing a deportation as a foreigner that has committed such crime that deportation is necessary. I think all countries have similar policies, nothing new here.

[Switek]

Have you heard of Maurice Papon?

He was a french "prefet" under Vichy and signed the deportation's order of many jews (but he quitted shortly after).

Well, at the age of 80 he has been judged and sentenced to 10years of prison.

Many people said it was a ridiculous trial, useless, etc.. And even jews, relatives of those who had been saved by Papon, testified in his favor.

He died in prison last month.

hm...


Vasily Beskov was given an eight-year suspended jail sentence in 1999 for his part in deporting some 20,000 Estonians to Siberia under Stalin in 1949.

Despite living in Estonia for decades, he remains a Russian citizen. He was ordered to leave the country last year.

those are similar but different cases... Look at the origin of the victims.

In my private point all crimes should be sentencented it has much more to do with justice than sending such people to jail.

[Kippari]

Mamont. All i'm saying is that Estonians have every right to feel bad about the years of occupation and integration to Soviet society, which they did not want. It doesn't matter if they got privileges. Their independece was taken from them by force. How would you feel if some of your neighbors invaded your country and held it for 50 years? They just show respect to the men who stood for their independece even if it meant joining the SS. That doesn't make them nazis, because they did not promote nazi ideology or fascism. They were given means to defend their country against the aggressor. Got it?

Now, I don't want that old people who had committed crimes decades earlier should be sentenced to prison, if and only if they show remorse and want to apologize of what they have done. This man committed a crime and it seems that he is not that sorry, because he still wishes to be Russian after living a long time in Estonia. So what's the fuzz? Early soviets weren't any better than Nazis.:|

[asch]

All i'm saying is that Estonians have every right to feel bad about the years of occupation and integration to Soviet society, which they did not want
indeed. but don't wait for applause for that.

This man committed a crime and it seems that he is not that sorry, because he still wishes to be Russian after living a long time in Estonia.
err... "he was sooo sorry, that he decided (at last!!) to change his citizenship"? sound stupid, isn't it?
p-)

[Igor01]

They just show respect to the men who stood for their independece even if it meant joining the SS. That doesn't make them nazis, because they did not promote nazi ideology or fascism. They were given means to defend their country against the aggressor.

While I can understand the sentiment of Estonian patriots who didn't want the Soviet rule, the idea that by fighting alongside the Germans they were somehow working towards Estonia's independence is not very convincing. According to GP Ost the Baltics were incorporated into the Reich and after mass cleansing and deportation of "racially undesirable elements" the rest of the population was to be used to conduct "unpopular functions" like police and guard duties in the East or be "germanized". Kindly point out which part of the Generalplan Ost had anything even remotely resembling independence for Estonia.

Estonia is by no means a "fascist" country, it's a nation that has come a very difficult and painful way and is trying to become a free and democratic society, that however also presents them with certain responsibility to act as a civilized nation and not indulge in revisionism no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes them feel. They really need to start viewing the Estonian role in WWII with some degree of objectivity and not invent comforting myths about "freedom fighters" and "struggle for independence". Anybody with half a brain and some time to do reasearch will quickly find out that their past is not quite as spotless as the SS apologets would have you believe. I should also point out that generalizing all Estonians to be of certain opinion is quite incorrect and that simplyfing history to fit some ideologically convenient pattern is hardly the proper way to learn from one's past.

[Pvt.Anderson]

finally a country's having the balls to

[Corsar]

Hm, nazi-museums and ss-men parading in Russia? Where and when?

http://www.newizv.ru/images/photos/big/20060821211747_2-rne.jpg
http://pix.lenta.ru/articles/2005/12/05/barkashov/rne.jpg
http://hro.org/pics/oct_93/rne_okt93.jpg
http://www.compromat.ru/main/barkashov/image/rne.jpg
Interesting sites:
http://www.nazi-lauck-nsdapao.com/rusind.html
http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/beyond-the-pale/eng_captions/68-4.html
http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/beyond-the-pale/eng_captions/68-2.html
Interesting story and "nice" pics:
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/08/murder_in_st_pe.html
http://www.mari.ee/eng/news/polit/2005/05/05.htm
Very interesting site of WW2 Russian fascists:
http://www.earthstation1.com/Russian_Fascists_WWII.html The last site is not connected to the nowadays but interesting for Your knowledge!

It's hard to find something in Estonia where oldaged brothers in arms are commemorating others perished in times compared to these pictures of contemporary Russia

[Doublethinker]

*yawn* All photos are from pre-2000 times, when RNU still had any influence. Would you still please come back with anything new pleeeease?

[Corsar]

*yawn* All photos are from pre-2000 times, when RNU still had any influence. Would you still please come back with anything new pleeeease?

Oh, sorry, I made a mistake - they are all a good guys now!!! Only old estonians are real fascists!

Some articles of last couple of months what happened in Russia:

Russian Synagogue Vandalized
(March 21, 2007)
Russian Police Captain Charged With Inciting Inter-Ethnic Hatred
(March 20, 2007)
Russian Parliamentarian's Aides Expelled for Wearing Swastikas Inside Duma Building
(March 20, 2007)
Inter-Ethnic Clash Almost Leads to Riots in Saratov Region
(March 19, 2007)
Third foreigner attacked in Russia's Voronezh
(March 19, 2007)
Moroccan Students Attacked in Nizhny Novgorod
(March 16, 2007)
Moscow Football Hooligans Attack Turks on Suburban Train
(March 14, 2007)
Vandals Strike Jewish Cemetery in Voronezh (March 12, 2007)
Krasnoyarsk Youths Convicted of Hate Crime (March 12, 2007)
Central Asians Stabbed on Moscow Commuter Train (March 8, 2007) Moscow Law Student Sentenced for Sending Antisemitic Text Messages (March 8, 2007)
Orenburg Neo-Nazis Charged With Killing Uzbek (March 7, 2007)
Neo-Nazis Suspected in Murder of Ethnic Buryat Banker (March 6, 2007)
Vladivostok Synagogue Vandalized (March 5, 2007)
National Bolsheviks Hold Anti-Chinese Rally (March 3, 2007)
Hate Crimes on the Rise--MVD Head Releases Stats (February 27, 2007)
Nizhny Police Accused of Racist Attack (February 26, 2007)
Racist Rampage in Petersburg Suburb Leads to Uzbek's Death (February 20, 2007)
Moscow Neo-Nazis Stab Uzbek (February 20, 2007)
Antisemitic Attack Near Moscow (February 19, 2007)
RUSSIA: Pentecostal Teacher "Forced to Resign" After Raid on House Church (February 19, 2007)
Hate Murder Retrial Stalls (February 16, 2007)
Racists Attack Newsweek Journalist in Moscow Metro (February 14, 2007)
Neo-Nazis Attack Uzbek in St. Petersburg (February 14, 2007)
Tambov Court Sentences Man to Prison for Hate Crime (February 9, 2007)
Antisemitic Vandalism in Volzhsk, Russia (February 9, 2007)
Russia: 5 Teens Jailed For Killing Jew With Cross (February 9, 2007)

Fortunately most of these "cases" are judged, but tendences are notorious - on the light of these cases to name Estonia a fascist country is rediculous. What happening in Russia doesn't justify nazi-occasions in other countries, but after start call others bad, first hold Your yard clean!
Comprende!

[Igor01]

Oh, sorry, I made a mistake - they are all a good guys now!!! Only old estonians are real fascists!

RNE was stripped of its public organization status in 1999. Good or bad (I think bad, but that's irrelevant right now) they have absolutely no official support and endorsement. You won't see the Minister of Defence attending at their rallies, can you say the same for Estonia?


Fortunately most of these "cases" are judged, but tendences are notorious - on the light of these cases to name Estonia a fascist country is rediculous.

Ethnic hatred and crimes happen everywhere, Russia is not an exception. Another thing to consider - there are plenty of ethnic crimes against Russians by non-Russians, especially in the southern Russia and the Caucasus but you will never see them mentioned in the mainstream mass media, these things are taboo. The picture of poor minorities being persecuted by evil Russian skinheads is not exactly true, not full anyway.

And this matter of Estonia being "called a fascist country" should really be laid to rest, Estonia is clearly not "fascist", but the current leadership is shall we say near-sighted when it comes to dealing with Estonia's painful past.

[Kilgor]

And this matter of Estonia being "called a fascist country" should really be laid to rest, Estonia is clearly not "fascist", but the current leadership is shall we say near-sighted when it comes to dealing with Estonia's painful past.

If there is any country that needs to deal with its painful past, its Russia.

[Corsar]

RNE was stripped of its public organization status in 1999. Good or bad (I think bad, but that's irrelevant right now) they have absolutely no official support and endorsement.

According to media quoted above, neo-nazi groups in Russia are not "stripped of" entirely unfortunately. Obviously the RNU centrally doesnt function any more but have some strong branches like Ural branche of RNU - and this one is quite vivid.


... can you say the same for Estonia? According to Wikipedia (allthough this source is not highly rated here): "Estonia has some Nazi skinheads." (I don't know, what does mean "some", in media was published three skinheaded young men carrying Estonian flag - if skinny head is automatically sign of nazism, then they are in Estonia. But there are not comparable organizations like RNU or nazbols in Estonia so there is not such judgements held as no reason to have ones. In Estonia more activ are branches of RNU (e.g. russians), according to Wikipedia: "Three members of the neo-Nazi group Russian National Unity (RNU) put on trial in Tallinn. All were men in their twenties, two of whom were Russian citizens. Investigators established that one of the men printed and all three distributed around 2,000 copies of a RNU newspaper called Kolovrat, which incites hatred against Jews, Estonians, Poles and Caucasian peoples. The two Russian citizens also worked as private security guards. They all faced up to one year in prison and/or a fine if found guilty of inciting ethnic hatred."


And this matter of Estonia being "called a fascist country" should really be laid to rest, Estonia is clearly not "fascist", but the current leadership is shall we say near-sighted when it comes to dealing with Estonia's painful past.
Estonian goverment let their people to commemorate the perished men who fought on nazi German side. Like german people commemorating their brothers in arms in nowadays.

[Igor01]

According to media quoted above, neo-nazi groups in Russia are not "stripped of" entirely unfortunately. Obviously the RNU centrally doesnt function any more but have some strong branches like Ural branche of RNU - and this one is quite vivid.

The groups do exist, no doubt, but they are very marginal and do not have any official support, quite the opposite is true. Even mildly nationlist movements like DPNI (Movement to Restrict Illegal Immigration) are subject to constant harrassment by the authorities. Again, you won't see the country's Defence Minister or Members of Parliament grace nationalist rallies which unfortunately happens in Estonia.


Estonian goverment let their people to commemorate the perished men who fought on nazi German side. Like german people commemorating their brothers in arms in nowadays.

Estonia was a divided nation with members of the same familiy often fighting on the opposite sides. It is however important to understand why many object to the official endorsement of Estonian SS by various Estonian authorities - many of those who later joined the 20th SS previously served as Schutzmannschaft and commited a great number of atrocities outside Estonia (mind you the Germans didn't consider it to be an Estonia, it was absorbed into the Reich). Their victims number in tens of thousands, mainly civilians who were eliminated in terror operation to crush the partizan movement. The list of their crimes goes on and on.

To idealize these men as glorious fighters for Estonia's independence is an insult to the facts and a very dangerous path that forgets the lessons of the past.

[Smersh]

conclusion: Russians are the most evil people.

there, no more need to argue.

I don't know much about this trail, he may have been guilty. but sentencing an 88 year old is more a symbolic move, with some kind of political motive, then actually getting justice.

[Kilgor]

conclusion: Russians are the most evil people.

there, no more need to argue.



No, some just have a hard time accepting history.


I don't know much about this trail, he may have been guilty. but sentencing an 88 year old is more a symbolic move, with some kind of political motive, then actually getting justice.

Of course its a symbolic movie, such as the other sentences dished out to old and dying men.

Justice should have no sunset.

[oregongrunt]

I think if he's sorry for what he did, Estonia should show mercy and allow him to stay in peace in Estonia for his final years of life. If he's unrepentant, I can understand why Estonia would want to deport him.
He didn't show any mercy in the 20,000 people that he sent to die in Siberia. He's probably only sorry that he finally has to face his actions.

[GromGrad]

Any one surprised about this? Estonian witch hunt continues. Why don't the prosecute their ex SS members? They have more blood on their hands as any NKVD member.

[Zuze]

Any one surprised about this? Estonian witch hunt continues. Why don't the prosecute their ex SS members? They have more blood on their hands as any NKVD member.

You seem to forget that Estonia was part of SU for 50 years. And believe me, Soviet Union was pretty good at finding and executing NAZI criminals. There are simply none left, even Simon Wieshental center admitted that. Or maybe you suggest that they should execute everyone who served in NAZI German armed forces? Most of them were conscripts...

[Smersh]

why ressurect this dead thread?

[asch]

He didn't show any mercy in the 20,000 people that he sent to die in Siberia. He's probably only sorry that he finally has to face his actions.

it takes one troll to resurrect a zombie thread and at least 5-10 MPnetters to hit zombie in ze head and put it to sleep again.

[GromGrad]

You seem to forget that Estonia was part of SU for 50 years. And believe me, Soviet Union was pretty good at finding and executing NAZI criminals. There are simply none left, even Simon Wieshental center admitted that. Or maybe you suggest that they should execute everyone who served in NAZI German armed forces? Most of them were conscripts...

Who were the Waffen SS veterans marching at the parade then?

[Snoshi]

Round 2!!!fiiighht!!

[Herrmannek]

Носил волк, понесли и волка!(wolf carried few times, they carried the wolf)

As for Russians whining at Estonians. Who cares actually? The old men was scum got what he deserved. He should be happy his crimes aren't to fresh because otherwise he could be hanging on the nearest branch ...

Sorry didn't notice its old crap, thought it grew up through night :)

[Hukatus]

Who were the Waffen SS veterans marching at the parade then?
hey buddy, i have seen Russian war veterans happily bragging about executing prisoners of war, their chests are full of medals and they are regarded as heroes.
i remember very well how one of them said that they captured German soldier in Stalingrad front, said to him: "tell us all u know and u be fine" and after the German soldiers had spoken he was taken around the corner and shot. Russian veteran said it was every day business.
the interviewer of this documentary asked the Russian veteran if he has any remorse or regrets, and he answered no, why should i? it was war.
the same story was repeated by some other Russian partisan happily bragging about executing German POWs.
Both documentaries were shown on Discovery channel few years ago.

[asch]

hey buddy, i have seen Russian war veterans happily bragging about executing prisoners of war, their chests are full of medals and they are regarded as heroes.
i remember very well how one of them said that they captured German soldier in Stalingrad front, said to him: "tell us all u know and u be fine" and after the German soldiers had spoken he was taken around the corner and shot. Russian veteran said it was every day business.
the interviewer of this documentary asked the Russian veteran if he has any remorse or regrets, and he answered no, why should i? it was war.
the same story was repeated by some other Russian partisan happily bragging about executing German POWs.
Both documentaries were shown on Discovery channel few years ago.
can you provide us any sources?

[Mamont]

hey buddy, i have seen Russian war veterans happily bragging about executing prisoners of war, their chests are full of medals and they are regarded as heroes.
That's really something. Another step ahead and you'll be defending way how german troops fought in SU.


Both documentaries were shown on Discovery channel few years ago. Discovery as proof? Glad you didn't point to Wiki.

[Royal]

Estonia is by no means a "fascist" country, it's a nation that has come a very difficult and painful way and is trying to become a free and democratic society, that however also presents them with certain responsibility to act as a civilized nation and not indulge in revisionism no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes them feel. They really need to start viewing the Estonian role in WWII with some degree of objectivity and not invent comforting myths about "freedom fighters" and "struggle for independence".


Estonia is clearly not "fascist", but the current leadership is shall we say near-sighted when it comes to dealing with Estonia's painful past.

People who live in glass houses...

Perhaps when Russia comes to terms with its own genocidal past people may listen with rather less incredulity.

In the meantime, this is an old thread that is rapidly spilling into a flame war.

You've been warned about the RussiaStrong!!! BS.

Locked.