"Opening Pandora's Box In Kosovo"

[AK-Lover]

25 March 2007 | 13:59 | Source: B92, mn.ru
Moscow -- No one understands just how deeply ingrained the problem of Kosovo is in the region, former Russian PM Yevgeny Primakov says.

Chairman of the Russian chamber of commerce and former Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov wrote in an op-ed published by the Moskovskie Novosti of his recent stay in Belgrade where he had informal, extensive talks with both President Boris Tadić and Prime Minister Vojislav Koštunica and gained “some interesting insights.”

“My general impression from what I saw and heard is that no one, primarily in Washington, understands just how deeply ingrained the issue of Kosovo is in the minds of the Serbs,” Primakov wrote

He said that “some Western politicians may have hoped that President Tadic would put EU membership above Serbia's territorial integrity,” which did not happen as” both Kostunica and Tadic categorically rejected independence for Kosovo.”

Primakov gave detailes of his talks to Tadić and Koštunica who introduced him to the details of Belgrade’s stance over Kosovo, as he cited three main points in the position of the Serbian leadership

“First, a fundamental solution to the Kosovo problem should be based on the preservation of the province's de jure status as part of Serbia with maximum independence [autonomy] rights,” Primakov writes adding that “the second point meant that Serbia was not turning its back on the West.”

Primakov said that “According to Koštunica, the country's course toward integration into the EU is still on.

However, this course should not impede relations with Russia, as “according to Tadić, Serbia has three foreign policy priorities: rapprochement with the European Union, the United States, and Russia,” Primakov added.

He particularly stressed the third point, according to which “the Serbian leadership is striving to continue negotiations with the Kosovo Albanians, harmonize positions and achieve a compromise formula that would be acceptable to both sides.”

He went on to elaborate on his impressions from the meetings with Serbia's top officials saying that “not all negotiating avenues have been exhausted yet.”

“I have often heard the question: Why act in such haste in dealing with this complex, long-standing problem? Unsurprisingly, many see "PR moves by the U.S. administration" behind this haste,” Primakov argued and explained:

“After leaving office, President Bush will go down in history not just with an "Iraq stigma" but also with victory in the Balkans, meaning that the air strikes on Belgrade eight years ago were not in vain,” Primakov wrote.

he commented on Richard Holbrooke's statement, predicting that delay in resolving the Kosovo issue would lead to more bloodshed.

"Should, God forbid, the scenario be played out, many questions are bound to arise: NATO forces and police have been deployed in Kosovo for the past eight years, therefore this entire international operation, initiated by the United States, has failed to establish stability in the province?" Primakov wondered.

He added that "if anti-Serb violence was possible even in the presence of international forces, what would be in store for the Serbian minority should Kosovo gain independence?"

At the end of his op-ed Primakov drew attention “to yet another problem,” saying that “once Kosovo is granted independence, the Bosnian state, created with so much difficulty, could start coming apart at the seams.”

“It cannot be ruled out that centrifugal trends will reemerge and start picking up pace. Bosnian Serbs could start gravitating toward Serbia, while a similar trend among Bosnian Croats with respect to Croatia could result in their secession from the Croatian-Muslim federation in Bosnia,” the former Russian prime minister concluded.

[AK-Lover]

Mr. Primakov makes very very excellent points about the situation, and it would be wise for the State Department and Eurocrats to listen to some of this.

[Switek]

I think that the best solution is to make a kind of confederation between Kosovo and Serbia. But it's only political fiction. Kosovo and Serbia as a only state... Jesus I'm so happy I'm not in it.


There is no good solution of this deadlock...

[AK-Lover]

I think that the best solution is to make a kind of confederation between Kosovo and Serbia. But it's only political fiction. Kosovo and Serbia as a only state... Jesus I'm so happy I'm not in it.


There is no good solution of this deadlock...

The problem is that Hoolbroke and Albright promised the Albanians in Kosovo and the Albanian lobby in capitol hill something that wasn't theirs to promise, and now it's kind of hard to go back on that promise, especially when you have 1.8 million Albanians ready to go for another 2004. Realistically speaking the Serbian government has given the most compromise based solution. That Kosovo and Metohija stay officially within Serbia but have the highest possible autonomy.

[Switek]

The problem is that Hoolbroke and Albright promised the Albanians in Kosovo and the Albanian lobby in capitol hill something that wasn't theirs to promise, and now it's kind of hard to go back on that promise, especially when you have 1.8 million Albanians ready to go for another 2004. Realistically speaking the Serbian government has given the most compromise based solution. That Kosovo and Metohija stay officially within Serbia but have the highest possible autonomy.

Anyway somebody should start reconciliation process. I don't see any volunteers from both sides. That's very sad...

[AK-Lover]

Anyway somebody should start reconciliation process. I don't see any volunteers from both sides. That's very sad...

Reconciliation process can only start after "Kosova" independance. According to "Kosovo Government", corrupt UMNIK and KFOR don't help alot either. Especially UMNIK, most of those higher level deputies would like to stay their forever as long as the paychecks from the UN and donations from the Kosovo "goverment" keep coming in.

[Switek]

Reconciliation process can only start after "Kosova" independance. According to "Kosovo Government", corrupt UMNIK and KFOR don't help alot either. Especially UMNIK, most of those higher level deputies would like to stay their forever as long as the paychecks from the UN and donations from the Kosovo "goverment" keep coming in.

May be I wrongly described this... Reconciliation must be done be by people, former neighbours... with all beitter words and subjectitive truth. You must be aware one thing... whatever we did or was done to us wee try to sustain the image that we're victims, surrivors of current situation. It's nothing but psychlogical simplification whitch can be far away from the trurth, that very often oppressor and victim is the same person in particular situation...

[California Joe]

Reconciliation process can only start after "Kosova" independance.

You don't seem to get that what you just wrote could have been a Bosnian speaking as well. Hate is like a religion there and the next generation is waiting to be baptized.

[AK-Lover]

You don't seem to get that what you just wrote could have been a Bosnian speaking as well. Hate is like a religion there and the next generation is waiting to be baptized.

I think we have a little misunderstanding, sorry. We're speaking about Kosovo hear, Serbs and Albanians. Bosnia is a whole other can of worms.

[NewsMan]

I find it interesting the the US is most likely about to make Kosovo a "non" combat zone when tension is at its highest in years.

[Durandal]

You don't seem to get that what you just wrote could have been a Bosnian speaking as well. Hate is like a religion there and the next generation is waiting to be baptized.

And 20 bucks says he won't get it after he reads it...

Edit: Nope...he did not.

[themacedonian]

Sometimes nature should take its course.

1. Russia will veto Kosovo independence in the UN SC.

2. Kosovo will declare independence and will be recognised by a lot of countries but not by Russia, Serbia, Greece and few more.

3. Albanians will declare independent part of Republic of Macedonia naturally.

4. There will be semi official war and western credibility will be lost.

It is not even hate now. The west has left the Albanians in charge of Kosovo for the past 8 years and they are had the chance to prove they are better than the Serbs. Even after the Butcher of the Balkans (Slobodan Milosevic) was gone from power the Kosovars participated in another war in Macedonia proving that they can not be trusted.

Nature will take its course according to Darwins theory.

[zg18]

Sometimes nature should take its course.

1. Russia will veto Kosovo independence in the UN SC.

2. Kosovo will declare independence and will be recognised by a lot of countries but not by Russia, Serbia, Greece and few more.

3. Albanians will declare independent part of Republic of Macedonia naturally.

4. There will be semi official war and western credibility will be lost.

It is not even hate now. The west has left the Albanians in charge of Kosovo for the past 8 years and they are had the chance to prove they are better than the Serbs. Even after the Butcher of the Balkans (Slobodan Milosevic) was gone from power the Kosovars participated in another war in Macedonia proving that they can not be trusted.

Nature will take its course according to Darwins theory.


I agree more or less,TheMacedonian what`s the situation in Macedonia now?

[R.D.]

Sometimes nature should take its course.

1. Russia will veto Kosovo independence in the UN SC.

2. Kosovo will declare independence and will be recognised by a lot of countries but not by Russia, Serbia, Greece and few more.

3. Albanians will declare independent part of Republic of Macedonia naturally.

4. There will be semi official war and western credibility will be lost.

It is not even hate now. The west has left the Albanians in charge of Kosovo for the past 8 years and they are had the chance to prove they are better than the Serbs. Even after the Butcher of the Balkans (Slobodan Milosevic) was gone from power the Kosovars participated in another war in Macedonia proving that they can not be trusted.

Nature will take its course according to Darwins theory.

Are you high or what?

Russia won't veto it(they never said they were going to veto it), and even if they do all EU countries and US will recognize its independence. Nobody will care for Russia anyway, like you guys don't know what happened when Russia attempted to occupy parts of Kosova back in 1999 saying they were "peacekeeping" troops. Anyway I got good news for all you daydreamers. Sorry to break it to you!




UN urges independence for Kosovo
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UNITED NATIONS, New York: A representative of the United Nations secretary general on Monday officially recommended independence for Kosovo, saying it was the only way the embattled province could become economically viable and politically stable.


In a report formally submitted to the Security Council, the envoy, Martti Ahtisaari, said he had concluded that yearlong negotiations between Serbia and Kosovo had reached an insurmountable impasse. In a 61-page proposal, he recommended that Kosovo's independence be supervised for "an initial period" by the European Union with NATO military forces and the European police.

Secretary General Ban Ki Moon said the recommendations had his full support. The State Department embraced the proposals.

President Boris Tadic of Serbia said in a statement that any form of independence for Kosovo was "unacceptable for Serbia." Belgrade has called for Kosovo to become an autonomous province within Serbia. Serbia's opposition to independence has been supported by Russia, a permanent veto-bearing member of the Security Council.

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov of Russia has called for extending the negotiations in a renewed effort at compromise.

United Nations officials said Ahtisaari, a former president of Finland, will appear before the Council on April 3 to present his recommendations, opening the Council's debate on the issue.

Over a year of negotiations, Ahtisaari wrote, "both parties have reaffirmed their categorical, diametrically opposed positions," and he said that any possibility for an agreement had been "exhausted." After NATO forces intervened in a bombing campaign to block Serb attacks in Kosovo, whose population is 90 percent ethnic Albanian, the territory has been administered since 1999 by the United Nations.

Ahtisaari said Kosovo would not accept a return of Serb rule. "This is a reality one cannot deny; it is irreversible," he wrote in the report.

The envoy's proposal calls for Kosovo to become a democratic "multi-ethnic society," with two official languages - Albanian and Serbian - with other local languages also recognized. He called for a decentralized government in which Kosovo Serbs would have "a high degree of control" over their affairs. The settlement proposal includes provisions to ensure the operation of the Serbian Orthodox church.

Refugees and displaced people from Kosovo would have the right to return and reclaim property. The proposal calls for the establishment within a year of a 2,500 multiethnic Kosovo security force whose commanders would be chosen by local assemblies.

According to the proposal, the United Nations would continue its current role for six months after the settlement goes into effect, while Kosovo writes a constitution. General elections would be held within nine months after the settlement takes effect.

For an undefined period, a European Union representative, with the support of NATO troops and the European police, would have supervisory powers to enforce the settlement agreement and ensure that ethnic conflict does not erupt.

Ahtisaari said Kosovo required independence in order to attract economic investment and integrate into the regional economy. With a population of about two million, Kosovo has faced widespread unemployment during the period of United Nations administration.

A State Department spokesman, Tom Casey, said the proposals "will give the people of Kosovo clarity about their future for the first time in many years." He called the proposed protections for Serbs and other non-Albanians "far-reaching."

Kosovo leader lauds proposal

President Fatmir Sejdiu of Kosovo welcomed the proposal as "a historic day for Kosovo" and said that independence would serve "peace, stability and prosperity" in the province, The Associated Press reported from Pristina.

Foreign Minister Margaret Beckett of Britain, meanwhile, said in a statement that Ahtisaari's proposals gave Kosovo clarity over its future, which "would enable the Balkan region as a whole to draw a line under the conflicts of the recent past."

"We look forward to working with our partners in the UN Security Council, on the basis of the UN special envoy's settlement proposals, to bring the status process through to completion."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/26/news/nations.php




Someone asked about the situation in Macedonia? I dunno what Greece has to do with this but anyway I guess he meant FYROM. The only reason why there was a "war" in FYROM in 2001 was because the "macedonians" were trying to be geniuses and beating up Albanians and burning their houses and wouldn't give them equal rights (open schools, participate in gov't, use Albanian as an official language etc). So Albanians took the law in their hand and showed the FYROM gov't what they could do, and thats why their gov't negotiated peace right away. Nobody asked how come NATO did not interfere. Well I guess they knew who was right and who was wrong, and the reason why nobody hears of any problems in FYROM right now is because they Albanians gained their rights, and since that time they never asked to get anything more. No autonomy, no independence, no union with Albania no nothing.
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[AK-Lover]

Are you high or what?

Russia won't veto it(they never said they were going to veto it), and even if they do all EU countries and US will recognize its independence. Nobody will care for Russia anyway, like you guys don't know what happened when Russia attempted to occupy parts of Kosova back in 1999 saying they were "peacekeeping" troops. Anyway I got good news for all you daydreamers. Sorry to break it to you!




Someone asked about the situation in Macedonia? I dunno what Greece has to do with this but anyway I guess he meant FYROM. The only reason why there was a "war" in FYROM in 2001 was because the "macedonians" were trying to be geniuses and beating up Albanians and burning their houses and wouldn't give them equal rights. So Albanians took the law in their hand and showed the FYROM gov't what they could do, and thats why their gov't negotiated peace right away. Nobody asked how come NATO did not interfere. Well I guess they knew who was right and who was wrong, and the reason why nobody hears of any problems in FYROM right now is because they Albanians gained their rights, and since that time they never asked to get anything more. No autonomy, no independence, no union with Albania no nothing.
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Nice way to start a reply. "Are you high?," the better question is are you high?
Russia won't veto it huh? Russia will do whatever Putins beleive's is in it's interests and right now that is to veto it, Kosovo is just another issue where the new revitilized Russia will stand up to the US, and if Russia veto's there goes China's veto also. Technically this issue shouldn't even be at the table for UNSC discussion since "standards before status" was not implemented even fractionally. But of course that is easily circumvented when the UN Special Envoy's position is oddly enough exactly the same as US's and GB's from the beggining of "negotiations" read farce.

[R.D.]

I dunno whats going on in your mind but as Ahtisari said "You can't negotiate with two sides that are not willing to give up any of their claims" so by Russia saying that, they're just trying to wast valuable time for Kosova because apparently they have nothing better to do. "Standards before status" yeah right! What standards do you want? All the Serbs that wanted to return have returned. Have you heard of any Serb geting killed because of their ethnicity in the last 6 months? I haven't. The Kosova gov't is paying for all their expenses to rebuild their houses and everything that they lost during or after the war. Who's gonna pay for all those hundreds of thousands of Albanian houses burned down during the war? huh? Serbia? I don't think soo. Serbs are getting way more than they deserve from this deal, and being on the losing side you know it could've been much worse, so sit tight and thank the west and the Albanians for not taking revenge(whose popularity you know in the Balkans from the wars of the 90s).

[Switek]

Nice way to start a reply. "Are you high?," the better question is are you high?
Russia won't veto it huh? Russia will do whatever Putins beleive's is in it's interests and right now that is to veto it, Kosovo is just another issue where the new revitilized Russia will stand up to the US, and if Russia veto's there goes China's veto also. Technically this issue shouldn't even be at the table for UNSC discussion since "standards before status" was not implemented even fractionally. But of course that is easily circumvented when the UN Special Envoy's position is oddly enough exactly the same as US's and GB's from the beggining of "negotiations" read farce.

well, Russia excluded itself by not participating in KFOR forces or other military, policing forces or even in not military way...

Putin himself and his clique take care, first of all for his own interest then Russian and later on the rest of the world. Russia can veto anything it wants but has nothing in practical sense to offer. Russia is marginalized itself on it own wish ... can't you see this?

[AK-Lover]

I dunno whats going on in your mind but as Ahtisari said "You can't negotiate with two sides that are not willing to give up any of their claims" so by Russia saying that, they're just trying to wast valuable time for Kosova because apparently they have nothing better to do. "Standards before status" yeah right! What standards do you want? All the Serbs that wanted to return have returned. Have you heard of any Serb geting killed because of their ethnicity in the last 6 months? I haven't. The Kosova gov't is paying for all their expenses to rebuild their houses and everything that they lost during or after the war. Who's gonna pay for all those hundreds of thousands of Albanian houses burned down during the war? huh? Serbia? I don't think soo. Serbs are getting way more than they deserve from this deal, and being on the losing side you know it could've been much worse, so sit tight and thank the west and the Albanians for not taking revenge(whose popularity you know in the Balkans from the wars of the 90s).
You seem to be blinded by some type of nationalistic rage. According to standards before status none of the numerous incidents which occured since
the 2004 pogrom should have occured. In other words for Kosovo and it's "government" to have been declared prepared to take the responsibility of being granted independance many, many things would have had to be changed, none of this PR we rebuilt two Serbian villages which we burnt down now let us have independance crap. Standards as in Serbs and other minorities can leave their house and go to the market without an armed patrol or send their children to school without fear of them being shot or stabbed. This same situation has been occuring since 74 when Tito first gave you those artificial Kosovo boundaries, setting you up nicely for your 91-Present day campaign of firmly cementing your control and ethnic composition superiority on that territory, but thats a whole other story.

[AK-Lover]

well, Russia excluded itself by not participating in KFOR forces or other military, policing forces or even in not military way...

Putin himself and his clique take care, first of all for his own interest then Russian and later on the rest of the world. Russia can veto anything it wants but has nothing in practical sense to offer. Russia is marginalized itself on it own wish ... can't you see this?

The point is that the US and EU are pursuing an policy which according to Resolutions and Accords they signed themselves are illegal, not to mention international rule of law. This small local conflict had been blown out of proportion so much it is ridicoulus. The US is using it as always, an oppurtunity to show it's influence and meet it's interests while the EU is showing it's unity and the power of it's blackmail approach. Yes, realistically Russia has no direct military/political influence in the area but for this reason it is getting involved, and China is sore as always about Taiwan, not to mention they still haven't forgotten 1999.

[R.D.]

O really? So Serbs cannot go to the market without getting killed? Is that what you're saying? Well go ask those Serbs and see if that's what THEY are saying and not what Belgrade is telling them to say. I was in Prishtina in 2003 (imagine just 4 years after the war) with two friends of mine and I heard people talking Serbian in public in at least 10-13 occasions and nobody seemed to be holding a gun pointed at them. The Serbs in the North don't want to be part of a multi-ethnic Kosova cause for the last 90 years they were used to being in "the top of the foodchain" and now when everyone is equal they chose to stay inside their houses. So who's fault is that? Should the Albanians suffer because some 100 year old man in Northern doesn't want to go out of his house? Trust me the victim card is not a card you want to play. Soo what does Russia get from the VETO? Serbian gold? money? oil? military bases? anything? Oh I forgot they're gonna do it because they are your brothers. Right! Tell Putin that. You can't have standards before independence and there so much you can do without it, the rest comes after independence. It's like a getting half of the money before doing the job and the rest after you finish it. Reaching the standards which the Serbs want will be a long way from now maybe 20-50 years time. It's not a something you can do it in one day.

[Switek]

The point is that the US and EU are pursuing an policy which according to Resolutions and Accords they signed themselves are illegal, not to mention international rule of law. This small local conflict had been blown out of proportion so much it is ridicoulus. The US is using it as always, an oppurtunity to show it's influence and meet it's interests while the EU is showing it's unity and the power of it's blackmail approach. Yes, realistically Russia has no direct military/political influence in the area but for this reason it is getting involved, and China is sore as always about Taiwan, not to mention they still haven't forgotten 1999.

When you start to underestand that all Serb nation was used as a tool by Butcher of Balkans and his clan? Nato/EU got this job to stop him becouse there was no one willing to stop this pointless conflict.

Milosevich failed and all Serbs with him. Ask yourself if there was no other option since mid 1980's to bulid a modern Serb nation?

Sorry mate nor Russia, nor anybody other is going to drink a beer Serbs used to brew. Kosovo should be a part of Serbia IMHO, but it won't.


BTW. Do you really believe that independent Kosovo is able to surrive in economic and political way? I don't. Sooner or later organized criminal groups will turn this country into another trouble. Just a matter of time, IMHO ;)

[AK-Lover]

When you start to underestand that all Serb nation was used as a tool by Butcher of Balkans and his clan? Nato/EU got this job to stop him becouse there was no one willing to stop this pointless conflict.

Milosevich failed and all Serbs with him. Ask yourself if there was no other option since mid 1980's to bulid a modern Serb nation?

Sorry mate nor Russia, nor anybody other is going to drink a beer Serbs used to brew. Kosovo should be a part of Serbia IMHO, but it won't.


BTW. Do you really believe that independent Kosovo is able to surrive in economic and political way? I don't. Sooner or later organized criminal groups will turn this country into another trouble. Just a matter of time, IMHO ;)
Whats with this butcher of Balkans? If you read any of the stuff that Tudjman or Izetbegovic spoke of you would realize the other sides were as guilty if not equally in the violence which broke out in the 90's. Do you know how Milosevic came to power? You guessed it, Kosovo. Among other injustices imposed on the Serb nation during Tito's rule, his refusal to let Serbs return to Kosovo after the WW2 ethnic cleansing of Serbs by Albanian Nazi units and his letting of a flood of Albanian immigrants their in the subseqeunt decades compounded with his 1974 decision to give Kosovo and Vojvodina autonomy in a cheap attempt to weaken the Serbs (the largest and most influental group within the ex-SFRY) had created the modern day problem, not to mention Albanian aspirations for land in Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia and Northern Greece.

As for Kosovo and Metohija surviving as an independant country, you can see how well they have managed so far with an institutionalized mafia in government and corrupt UMNIK. %50 percent un-employment and the major industry being narcotics and human smuggling.

[Switek]

Whats with this butcher of Balkans? If you read any of the stuff that Tudjman or Izetbegovic spoke of you would realize the other sides were as guilty if not equally in the violence which broke out in the 90's. Do you know how Milosevic came to power? You guessed it, Kosovo. Among other injustices imposed on the Serb nation during Tito's rule, his refusal to let Serbs return to Kosovo after the WW2 ethnic cleansing of Serbs by Albanian Nazi units and his letting of a flood of Albanian immigrants their in the subseqeunt decades compounded with his 1974 decision to give Kosovo and Vojvodina autonomy in a cheap attempt to weaken the Serbs (the largest and most influental group within the ex-SFRY) had created the modern day problem, not to mention Albanian aspirations for land in Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia and Northern Greece.

As for Kosovo and Metohija surviving as an independant country, you can see how well they have managed so far with an institutionalized mafia in government and corrupt UMNIK. %50 percent un-employment and the major industry being narcotics and human smuggling.


AK-Lover, How Milosevic came to power is your Serbs problem... We live in Europe where is no place for ideologies from 19th centurty...

In many cses Serbs were innocent victims of different crimes. But, AFAIK, your leader Miloshevic was very pleased to see your nation that role.

look at my country now: we live in 30% of former Germany territories. It wasn't our choice... we couldn't say a word about it but we don't dream aboyt Great Poland and so on...

[AK-Lover]

AK-Lover, How Milosevic came to power is your Serbs problem... We live in Europe where is no place for ideologies from 19th centurty...

In many cses Serbs were innocent victims of different crimes. But, AFAIK, your leader Miloshevic was very pleased to see your nation that role.

look at my country now: we live in 30% of former Germany territories. It wasn't our choice... we couldn't say a word about it but we don't dream aboyt Great Poland and so on...

Switek, if Serbs and Milosevic had dreamed of our territory being free of any minorities such as Albanians and Croatians and Bosniaks etc, their would be none now in our country, but that was never on our mind. Thankfully not since my father is half-Croatian. The point is in the end that with Western "humanitarian intervention" all you have done is created another generation full of hatred and bitterness, especially in the Serbs, the whole Kosovo thing is adding insult to injury. Germany killed 6 million jews, do they have any claims to German territory or property? No.

[Switek]

Switek, if Serbs and Milosevic had dreamed of our territory being free of any minorities such as Albanians and Croatians and Bosniaks etc, their would be none now in our country, but that was never on our mind. Thankfully not since my father is half-Croatian. The point is in the end that with Western "humanitarian intervention" all you have done is created another generation full of hatred and bitterness, especially in the Serbs, the whole Kosovo thing is adding insult to injury. Germany killed 6 million jews, do they have any claims to German territory or property? No.


So why the hell Milosevic did not ordered all Serbs to leave Kosovo? You start to deny yourself :roll:

Germany do not deny its crimes ... That makes a big difference.

[WKD]

Switek, if Serbs and Milosevic had dreamed of our territory being free of any minorities such as Albanians and Croatians and Bosniaks etc, their would be none now in our country, but that was never on our mind. Thankfully not since my father is half-Croatian. The point is in the end that with Western "humanitarian intervention" all you have done is created another generation full of hatred and bitterness, especially in the Serbs, the whole Kosovo thing is adding insult to injury. Germany killed 6 million jews, do they have any claims to German territory or property? No.

Yeah, good point. We should have just let Milosevic pull the trigger on the rest of the Albanians in Kosovo.

It would have worked too, if it wasn't for those damn kids!

[R.D.]

Yeah, good point. We should have just let Milosevic pull the trigger on the rest of the Albanians in Kosovo.

It would have worked too, if it wasn't for those damn kids!
:cantbeli:

[AK-Lover]

Yeah, good point. We should have just let Milosevic pull the trigger on the rest of the Albanians in Kosovo.

It would have worked too, if it wasn't for those damn kids!

No you shouldn't have armed the Albanians so they can go shooting Serbian police for a start.

[AK-Lover]

So why the hell Milosevic did not ordered all Serbs to leave Kosovo? You start to deny yourself :roll:

Germany do not deny its crimes ... That makes a big difference.

Why would he order all Serbs to leave Kosovo, when all the Serbs who had lived their had been living their for over 10 generations of family heritage.

[R.D.]

No you shouldn't have armed the Albanians so they can go shooting Serbian police for a start.
Ummm right police... so two cops were shot by an Italian here in NYC a few days ago, by your logics the cops should go to his neighborhood and kill everyone italian there right? Great logics there... I admire you...

[AK-Lover]

Ummm right police... so two cops were shot by an Italian here in NYC a few days ago, by your logics the cops should go to his neighborhood and kill everyone italian there right? Great logics there... I admire you...

Unfortunately for you that theory doesn't hold water in serious discussion, so yeah keep playing the broken record. Maybe I'll repeat again if the MUP and VJ wanted a whole lot of Albanians dead in Kosovo it would have gotten done, but we limited ourselves to liquidating UCK/KLA/OVK terrorists and their supporters. Unfortunately some units went of the hook and killed Albanian civilians but this was the exception not the norm, unlike with the KLA which purposely target Serbian villages which were undefended and their inhabitants.

[R.D.]

Unfortunately for you that theory doesn't hold water in serious discussion, so yeah keep playing the broken record. Maybe I'll repeat again if the MUP and VJ wanted a whole lot of Albanians dead in Kosovo it would have gotten done, but we limited ourselves to liquidating UCK/KLA/OVK terrorists and their supporters. Unfortunately some units went of the hook and killed Albanian civilians but this was the exception not the norm, unlike with the KLA which purposely target Serbian villages which were undefended and their inhabitants.
The KLA targeted Serbian villages? Are you freaking serious? That's the biggest lie ever, or can I say it wasn't a "norm." Killing 2 year old babies and 70 year old men yeah sure "It wasn't a norm" like it's nothing. Great excuse. Those are acts of genocide and that's why you got bombed. I dunno why you guys are in denial about this, even your freaking generals said it. You said it right though... KLA "terrorists" and they supporters (99.9% of Kosova Albanians) Good play on words there bud, but the KLA was fighting for all those things you were fighting for plus their homeland. They killed Serbian terrorists, MUP, police or whatever u want to call them, and their supporters (Serbs) so I guess that evens things out by your logics.

[AK-Lover]

The KLA targeted Serbian villages? Are you freaking serious? That's the biggest lie ever, or can I say it wasn't a "norm." Killing 2 year old babies and 70 year old men yeah sure "It wasn't a norm" like it's nothing. Great excuse. Those are acts of genocide and that's why you got bombed. I dunno why you guys are in denial about this, even your freaking generals said it. You said it right though... KLA "terrorists" and they supporters (99.9% of Kosova Albanians) Good play on words there bud, but the KLA was fighting for all those things you were fighting for plus their homeland. They killed Serbian terrorists, MUP, police or whatever u want to call them, and their supporters (Serbs) so I guess that evens things out by your logics.

Are you denying the terrorist UCK forces targeted Serbian villages and civilians? You are the one thats in denial friend.

[Fullaut0]

BTW. Do you really believe that independent Kosovo is able to surrive in economic and political way? I don't. Sooner or later organized criminal groups will turn this country into another trouble. Just a matter of time, IMHO ;)


It has already happened.

Kosovo will return to Serbia soon enough. As Lokos commented in another related thread, something is yours for as long as you can hold it.

[R.D.]

Are you denying the terrorist UCK forces targeted Serbian villages and civilians? You are the one thats in denial friend.
Did you read what I wrote or are you jsut acting stupid?



something is yours for as long as you can hold it.

Yep, but you better be ready for a LONG LONG wait... :)

[Fullaut0]

Did you read what I wrote or are you jsut acting stupid?


Yep, but you better be ready for a LONG LONG wait... :)

I give it 10 years from this date at the very outside.

[R.D.]

I give it 10 years from this date at the very outside.
lol yeah? I'd say you're over-optimistic. What about NATO wiseguy?

[Fullaut0]

lol yeah? I'd say you're over-optimistic. What about NATO wiseguy?

I think the Albanians will have more to fear from NATO than the Serbs.

[Redmen]

The whole solution to the problem is bs. Kosovo Albanians have the right to independence or (unification with Albania) but Serbs in Bosnia (Republika Srpska) dont have the same right.
And what happens if Kosovo (and Metohija) get their independence then probably the majority Muslim population in Sandžak will want the same thing allready many extremist Islamic groups (Wahhabi) have found it a nice place to live.

[Russian_dude]

I think if the EU goes over Serbs wishes in the matter, the Serbs should start recognising the wishes of "opressed" peoples of Europe, like he Basques and recognize Corsica as an independent country, because clearly they do not want to be with France, which refuses to compromise. Heck why not an independent Turkish Germany?

[themacedonian]

AS I SAID BEFORE.

NATURE WILL TAKE ITS COURSE.

According to DARWINS Theory of Evolution.

Survival of the strongest. Some nations will survive some won't and some will evolve.

[Sergei]

Both US and EU are playing with a large ball of fire in the Kosovo issue.
Soon (no more than 25-30 years) California will be mexican and south of France a part of Algeria. Most of us will be still alive to see how the guys will wiggle out of that situation.
By preserving the territorial integrity of Serbia, both EU and US are saving their own future IMHO. Plus this is a clear violation of 1975 Helsinki accords on the borders of post-war Europe and it opens a big can of worms.

How about redrawing some of the borders in Europe anyone?

[Musashi]

Both US and EU are playing with a large ball of fire in the Kosovo issue.
Soon (no more than 25-30 years) California will be mexican and south of France a part of Algeria. Most of us will be still alive to see how the guys will wiggle out of that situation.
By preserving the territorial integrity of Serbia, both EU and US are saving their own future IMHO. Plus this is a clear violation of 1975 Helsinki accords on the borders of post-war Europe and it opens a big can of worms.

How about redrawing some of the borders in Europe anyone?
That's one of your few posts written recently, I'd agree with.

Kosovo should be in Serbia.

[AK-Lover]

Russia: Independence would damage stability
27 March 2007 | 12:03 | Source: B92, Interfax
Moscow -- The Russian Foreign Ministry issued a statement Tuesday commenting on Ahtisaari’s finalized plan.

“The establishment of an independent state in Kosovo could have a negative impact on stability in Europe,” the Foreign Ministry said in a statement, Interfax reported.

"The establishment of an independent state in Kosovo is fraught with serious complications for stability in Europe," the Foreign Ministry mantained.

"It is also doubtful whether Kosovo's independence, obtained without the consent of all countries, would facilitate the achievement of the fundamental objectives that the status settlement requires, including the formation of a multiethnic society and the fulfillment of other standards ," the Russian Foreign Ministry claimed

[Lokos]

Enough of this horse****.


The KLA targeted Serbian villages? Are you freaking serious?

I was there. Third Army inorganic recce element (Vojska Jugoslavije). Yes, the KLA did target Serbian villages. And Albanian villages. And Roma villages. And Gorani villages. How do I know this? I passed through many of the ruined/raided ones.


Killing 2 year old babies and 70 year old men yeah sure "It wasn't a norm" like it's nothing

Two year old babies? Seventy year old men? Where do you get this cotton candy from? Plenty of civilians die in the crossfire in Iraq and Afghanistan. Why aren't you calling it genocide?


Those are acts of genocide and that's why you got bombed.

If we had wanted to commit wanton genocide, that wouldn't have been difficult. Sorry. But our mandate in Kosovo was the elimination of the KLA/UCK. Not the annihilation of the Albanian population. Operation Horseshoe was not an act of ethnic cleansing.

Though that did happen following the onset of NATO bombing.


I dunno why you guys are in denial about this, even your freaking generals said it.

Which general was this, then?


You said it right though... KLA "terrorists" and they supporters (99.9% of Kosova Albanians)

99.9%? Does this include the thousand or so Albanians who were gunned down by the KLA for 'collaboration' during the period of 1997-2000?


Yep, but you better be ready for a LONG LONG wait...

That depends, really. It's not like we haven't waited for a 'long, long' time before, though.

Lokos

[Vuk1389]

150 monistaries/churches collapsed....by a earthquake?...

All those non-albanians that were kicked out....oh they were chased by raccoons...

there is something called territorial security every soverign country in this world gets....WHAT DO YOU KNOW IT? SERBS DONT....oh wow RSK doesnt get recognised, but Kosovo does??? wow

Sadly I have a feeling another war is gonna break out.....

[kosse]

More recent news..




UN Security Council begins debate on Ahtisaari Kosovo plan

Serb PM Believes Russia will reject independence


The United Nations Security Council began debate on Tuesday on the Kosovo plan drawn up by former Finnish President Martti Ahtisaari (http://www.hs.fi/haku/?haku=Martti+Ahtisaari), who served as the special representative of the UN Security Council in talks on the future of Kosovo.
Approving the proposal would mean that Kosovo, which is officially a province of Serbia, would gain independence under the supervision of the European Union.
Ahtisaari personally presented his proposal to the Security Council. Also at UN headquarters in New York was Serb Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica (http://www.hs.fi/haku/?haku=Vojislav+Kostunica).

The Security Council is expected to spend several weeks going through the plan.
Kostunica has said that he is confident that Russia’s support will prevent Kosovo from being given full independence. Russia has called for the appointment of a new Kosovo envoy to replace Ahtisaari, and that the negotiations on the future of Kosovo should continue between Serbia and the predominantly Albanian Kosovo.
Kosovo Prime Minister Agim Ceku (http://www.hs.fi/haku/?haku=Agim+Ceku) urged the Security Council to approve Ahtisaari’s plan.
The US and the EU have said that a monitored independence is the only possibility for Kosovo to avert the outbreak of violence there. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon (http://www.hs.fi/haku/?haku=Ban+Ki+Moon) said on Tuesday that he fully supports Ahtisaari’s proposals.
Ahtisaari himself has said that independence for Kosovo is the only realistic option.
Ahtisaari’s plan calls for (http://www.hs.fi/haku/?haku=Ahtisaarirsquos+plan+calls+for) a separate constitution, flag, and national anthem for Kosovo, as well as the right to join international organisations. The proposal also provides protections for the Serb minority.
Kosovo would remain under the supervision of the EU, and NATO-led forces would remain in Kosovo to secure peace and stability there. Kosovo’s 100,000 Serbs would be guaranteed self-determination and protection.
Kosovo has been under UN supervision since 1999.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/UN+Security+Council+begins+debate+on+Ahtisaari+Kosovo+plan/1135226347693

[DinamitTNT]

150 monistaries/churches collapsed....by a earthquake?...

All those non-albanians that were kicked out....oh they were chased by raccoons......


Justin Timberlake - What Goes Around comes around


It is a nice song.

[AK-Lover]

Justin Timberlake - What Goes Around comes around


It is a nice song.

Qouting Justin timberlake to justify ethnic cleansing. You have stooped to a whole new level, I thought you were banned firefighter.

[DinamitTNT]

People don't forget. What can I say. They have this weird sense of payback. You should be glad you were only kicked out as you mentioned and not ethnicaly cleansed/ genocided like us.

All those non-albanians that were kicked out...
You should be thankfull for this only.

[Vuk1389]

Justin Timberlake - What Goes Around comes around


It is a nice song.I don't recall Serbs buring down 100's of mosques, before 1999.....or the mass killings of Siptars.

Can you please update me on this info?

[AK-Lover]

I don't recall Serbs buring down 100's of mosques, before 1999.....or the mass killings of Siptars.

Can you please update me on this info?

Vuce, don't let him pull you into flame war. You will get the banning from mods. I have reported him to a mod already and he is keeping close eye on him.

[DinamitTNT]

I don't recall Serbs buring down 100's of mosques, before 1999.....or the mass killings of Siptars.

Can you please update me on this info?

But during 1999 Servs did all kind of **** and they got only 10% of what they really deserved.

Even before that human rights violations were the norm. People do not rebel for the fun of it. There have to be strong reasons. And Servs gave lot of reasons for Kosova to seek a better future on its own.

[Lokos]

You having trouble ****ouncing that 'b', or what? Are you Alvanian?

Serb. Not Serv. Read it, know it, or be reported for what we all know you're referring to, you miserable git.

Lokos

[AK-Lover]

You having trouble ****ouncing that 'b', or what? Are you Alvanian?

Serb. Not Serv. Read it, know it, or be reported for what we all know you're referring to, you miserable git.

Lokos

Here we go again with the whole Slaves thing.....
:roll: :)

[Vuk1389]

But during 1999 Servs did all kind of **** and they got only 10% of what they really deserved.

Even before that human rights violations were the norm. People do not rebel for the fun of it. There have to be strong reasons. And Servs gave lot of reasons for Kosova to seek a better future on its own.I said before 99...

[martinexsquaddie]

unfortunaly kosovo is going to go for independence can't see them wanting to have anything to do with serbia and theres nobody willing to take the serbs seriously
more chance of persuading the nra that a 9mm is a suitable handgun
round four or five of balkan wars sort of like a van damme movie without the good acting and way more bloodshed :(

[Emperior]

US, EU warn Russia on Kosovo independence

By Daniel Dombey in London and Neil MacDonald in Belgrade
Updated: 4:11 p.m. ET May 6, 2007

The US and the European Union are seeking to push through a United Nations resolution on Kosovo this month, warning Russia that if it vetoes any such measure it will be responsible for any resulting violence or instability in the province.

US and European officials hope that, despite recent friction between Russia and the west on a range of topics, Moscow will abstain rather than veto the plan.

"It would be quite a big step if Russia blocked a resolution of what is fundamentally a European issue," said a senior British official.

"I would hope that the Security Council would agree this month for the simple reason that the meeting at the G8 can agree on a more positive agenda [at its June 6-8 summit]," said Martti Ahtisaari, the UN's mediator for Kosovo, last week. "Otherwise this issue will haunt that meeting as well." He added, referring to his plan to give Kosovo "supervised independence" under the European Union and Nato: "In light of my experience of the past year and a half, this is the only possible solution." He predicted that an international presence would be required in Kosovo for another five years or so.

Russia has consistently said that any deal needs to be backed by both the Serbs and the Kosovo Albanians and has repeatedlydismissed the Ahtisaari plan.

The argument made by Washington and Brussels is that a Russian veto will be indefensible, since it will be European and US peacekeepers who will be caught in the middle if the lack of a decisive outcome leads Kosovo to spiral out of control.

"It's sure that the Kosovars will declare independence under any circumstances," said Albert Rohan, Mr Ahtisaari's deputy. "The question is: 'Do we want this process to be handled in an orderly way or in a rather messy way?'… Russia cannot say simply say no to a solution which is orderly even if it is not an ideal one."

This argument assumes that Europe and the US can win a majority of UN Security Council members to their side, but the senior British official said the Ahtisaari plan was backed by 11 or 12 of the 15 countries on the council.

He added that rather than simply declaring Kosovo independent, a UN resolution would give the province a "platform" for independence, by giving it the right to join international organisations. As a result, he said, Russia could still refuse to recognise Kosovo, even after a resolution was passed, and could even veto a specific Kosovan application to join the UN.

Nicholas Burns, US undersecretary of state, said that the US and the EU would probably start circulating a draft resolution at the UN this week. "We hope very much that Russia is going to work with us and be a productive member of this group," he said. "It's hard to stop history."

Settling Kosovo's status has been further complicated by the lack of a fully functioning government in Belgrade. Parliament is to convene on Monday although rival parties have still failed to form a governing coalition since inconclusive January 21 elections.

Copyright The Financial Times Ltd. All rights reserved.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18520192/



Looks like Kosovo is gaining its Independence, with or without Russian support

[Lokos]

Looks like Kosovo is gaining its Independence, with or without Russian support

Looks like Republika Srpska is gaining its independence, with or without international/BiH support.

You set the precedent, you deal with the consequences.

Lokos

[AK-Lover]

Looks like Kosovo is gaining its Independence, with or without Russian support

Hahah looks like idiots in EU/NATO are trying to throw the blame off themselves for the cluster**** they created.

[AK-Lover]

Looks like Republika Srpska is gaining its independence, with or without international/BiH support.

You set the precedent, you deal with the consequences.

Lokos

Hehe, svaka cast Lokos. Obozavam tvoje komentare. Good stuff!

[Emperior]

Hahah looks like idiots in EU/NATO are trying to throw the blame off themselves for the cluster**** they created.

Actually its the American side backed by UK who is pushing it and the EU is just following the lead, nothing wrong with it. And dont call our leaders for idiots, atleast they are not war criminals

[Emperior]

Looks like Republika Srpska is gaining its independence, with or without international/BiH support.

You set the precedent, you deal with the consequences.

Lokos

Who is going to support it? Sure go ahead

[Lokos]

And dont call our leaders for idiots, atleast they are not war criminals

You're living in 2001. Which Serb leader of the current era is/was an accused war criminal? Kostunica? Tadic? Djindjic?


Who is going to support it? Sure go ahead

In what? Gaining its independence? Who's going to take it (the right to secede) away, when the Kosovo Precedent takes effect? Listen up: from now on, any geographically based localized majority, with or without legal/historical/cultural claim to the geographic entity in question, has the right to declare independence.

Welcome to the Super Wilsonian 21st century.

Lokos

[TheArmenian]

If Kosovo gets independence.......What a cascade of events to which a precedent has been set.

Just to name a few:

South Ossetia
Abkhazia
Nagorno Karabagh
Transdniestria
Kurdish North of Iraq
etc. etc.

....and not to mention areas in West Europe that would like to seceed.....How about some US states that want to go alone.....

It will be a very, very interesting world.....

Indeed a Pandora's box. Great title for this topic.

"Can of worms" is another good title I could think about.

[Deminer from Sarajevo]

Scotland as well

[Emperior]

You're living in 2001. Which Serb leader of the current era is/was an accused war criminal? Kostunica? Tadic? Djindjic?


No but Bosnian Serb leaders, who is still protected by nationalist Kostunica and many radical political parties in Serbia.



In what? Gaining its independence? Who's going to take it (the right to secede) away, when the Kosovo Precedent takes effect? Listen up: from now on, any geographically based localized majority, with or without legal/historical/cultural claim to the geographic entity in question, has the right to declare independence.

Welcome to the Super Wilsonian 21st century.

Lokos

Depends on, has the majority of that provice being treated as second citizens, ethnic cleansed, massacred, raped, killed the infrastructure, destroyed villages etc then yes, but if non of them then why should they secede? The Albanian ppl had gone thru all of it, so has the Bosnian ppl, the west had to do smth and Im glad they did took action to stop another Srebrenica.

[Emperior]

If Kosovo gets independence.......What a cascade of events to which a precedent has been set.

Just to name a few:

South Ossetia
Abkhazia
Nagorno Karabagh
Transdniestria
Kurdish North of Iraq
etc. etc.


Kurdistan at northern Iraq comes closest the right to secede, the rest is Russian made up states wich both the EU and USA would not recognize

[Lokos]

Christ almighty, the hypocricy of some fools.


the rest is Russian made up states wich both the EU and USA would not recognize

And why would we recognise the NATO made-up state of 'Kosova'?


No but Bosnian Serb leaders, who is still protected by nationalist Kostunica and many radical political parties in Serbia.


Neither Mladic nor Karadzic are Bosnian Serb leaders. They are persona non grata. And, unless you can prove that either a) Kostunica/Serb nationalist parties are protecting them (and if you can do so, contact the Hague, they'd love to hear from you) or b) that the leaders of the Serb Republic are war criminals, then you can just shut your mouth.

I find it ironic that you call the leaders of the RS war criminals, when a charged war criminal recently ruled Kosovo. Do you even know who I'm talking about? Hint, hint, he's Albanian.


but if non of them then why should they secede?

And if they decide to, anyway? What then? You're all for it? I look forward to the establishment of the Malmo Caliphate.


the west had to do smth and Im glad they did took action to stop another Srebrenica.

I was in this army of 'rapists and war criminals' you allege the Vojska Jugoslavije was, and I have one thing to say to you: it is better to be thought a fool and say nothing, than to open your mouth and to remove all doubt. You're already well past that point.

Every single thing you say confirms to me just how little you know, how little you understand, and how much that holds true with the rest of your countrymen. Begone.

Lokos

[AK-Lover]

Jebote, the ignorance and arrogance of some people.

[Emperior]

Christ almighty, the hypocricy of some fools.

And why would we recognise the NATO made-up state of 'Kosova'?

No one is forcing you..


Neither Mladic nor Karadzic are Bosnian Serb leaders. They are persona non grata. And, unless you can prove that either a) Kostunica/Serb nationalist parties are protecting them (and if you can do so, contact the Hague, they'd love to hear from you) or b) that the leaders of the Serb Republic are war criminals, then you can just shut your mouth.

Not now, but they where


I find it ironic that you call the leaders of the RS war criminals, when a charged war criminal recently ruled Kosovo. Do you even know who I'm talking about? Hint, hint, he's Albanian.

Haradinaj, well he is innocent until proven guilty. Should I compare Serbs alone against all other nationalities in former Yugoslavia charged by ICTY? You would be surprised how many.


And if they decide to, anyway? What then? You're all for it? I look forward to the establishment of the Malmo Caliphate.

Dont worry about Malmö stad, they are doin just fine maybe to many in one place but what can you do, and no one is killing them for their nationality..


I was in this army of 'rapists and war criminals' you allege the Vojska Jugoslavije was, and I have one thing to say to you: it is better to be thought a fool and say nothing, than to open your mouth and to remove all doubt. You're already well past that point.

You know, you sound very tough behind you computrer, why cant you reply in a civil manner. I don't get what you are trying to prove?


Every single thing you say confirms to me just how little you know, how little you understand, and how much that holds true with the rest of your countrymen. Begone.

Lokos

Trust me I know alot about former Yugoslavia, have Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian and Albanian friends and every time we have a party history comes up, and I like to listen alot and I have been there already twice: Dobrovnik (CRO) -02, Pristina (KS) -04 ..have you ever been in Kosovo?

Ps. Next time you want to reply, use a civilized language mate, same thing goes to you AK-Lover

[AK-Lover]

No one is forcing you..



Not now, but they where



Haradinaj, well he is innocent until proven guilty. Should I compare Serbs alone against all other nationalities in former Yugoslavia charged by ICTY? You would be surprised how many. I guess you didn't read what Lokos read but he was in Kosovo 98-99.



Dont worry about Malmö stad, they are doin just fine maybe to many in one place but what can you do, and no one is killing them for their nationality..



You know, you sound very tough behind you computrer, why cant you reply in a civil manner. I don't get what you are trying to prove?



Trust me I know alot about former Yugoslavia, have Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian and Albanian friends and every time we have a party history comes up, and I like to listen alot and I have been there already twice: Dobrovnik (CRO) -02, Pristina (KS) -04 ..have you ever been in Kosovo?

Ps. Next time you want to reply, use a civilized language mate, same thing goes to you AK-Lover

Mate, your acting quite an ass. If you knew "quite a bit" about the former Yugoslavia you wouldn't be flaming so much.

[Lokos]

I'll use civilized language (whatever that means) when your neurons start firing normally.


No one is forcing you..


You're hilarious. You're trying to force us to accept the independence of Kosovo. Isn't that what's being discussed?


Not now, but they where



Yes, and Germany's WW2 leaders were also not saints, but the Greater German Reich is no modern Germany, just as the Republika Srpska of 1995 is not the Republika Srpska of 2007. Do you even understand how asinine you look when you make a point, that point is rebuffed, and then you pretend that it wasn't even your point in the first place?

Do I even need to quote you, to show you that 'they were' wasn't even tangentially what you were saying in your previous post?


well he is innocent until proven guilty.

More hilarity! So who proved Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic guilty, hmm? Where's the conviction, ever the fool?


Dont worry about Malmö stad, they are doin just fine maybe to many in one place but what can you do

You can sit there and wait until they are an absolute demographic majority in the region, and then you can lose the region, if they democratically decide to take your land by a democratic vote. And you probably wouldn't even fight for it.


You know, you sound very tough behind you computrer, why cant you reply in a civil manner

I start to lose civility when I have to talk down at idiots. You've already called my comrades and I rapists, murderers and war criminals. Yet you're being civil?


..have you ever been in Kosovo?

Are you deaf? I fought in Kosovo during the 1998/1999 war as a soldier in the Vojska Jugoslavije (the Yugoslav Army). What makes you think your visits to Pristina and Dubrovnik have any purchase with me, who was there, and who experienced the things you blab about?

Lokos

[asch]

Kurdistan at northern Iraq comes closest the right to secede, the rest is Russian made up states wich both the EU and USA would not recognize
care to back this up? come on, give us some facts, at last.

[CroWinner]

Mate, your acting quite an ass. If you knew "quite a bit" about the former Yugoslavia you wouldn't be flaming so much.

Well, I do!

And Serbs are masters in lies, manipulation, secret state proctected murders, beatings and other bloody ways of ruling the state.

It is sooo weird Kosovars don't want to have anything with them! :roll:

[asch]

And Serbs are masters in lies, manipulation, secret state proctected murders, beatings and other bloody ways of ruling the state. Racism is any form of bigotry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry), prejudice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice), violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence), oppression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression), stereotyping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotyping) or other socially divisive practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice) whose primary basis is the concept of race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race).

change "race" to "nation" and have your sickness.

[CroWinner]

Racism is any form of bigotry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry), prejudice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice), violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence), oppression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression), stereotyping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotyping) or other socially divisive practice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice) whose primary basis is the concept of race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race).

change "race" to "nation" and have your sickness.

Yeah, hit me with some definition. :)

Ashy, 70ty years of this kind of behavior with many many documents backing this up, is just plain fact. You can play with words, but dead are speaking loudly after the death of communism, and fall of Milosevic.

[asch]

Yeah, hit me with some definition. :)

Ashy, 70ty years of this kind of behavior with many many documents backing this up, is just plain fact. You can play with words, but dead are speaking loudly after the death of communism, and fall of Milosevic.

your inability to correct writing of my forum name is a sign of your IQ state, or a simple try to insult me?

[CroWinner]

your inability to correct writing of my forum name is a sign of your IQ state, or a simple try to insult me?

It is just a nickname, you are paranoid?

[asch]

It is just a nickname, you are paranoid?
well, i'm russian, and i think that in your nice little racial list we are paranoids and warmongers too.

[AK-Lover]

An extreme Croatian nationalist talking to us about violence! HAHAHAH!
I'm gonna sit this one out.

[Emperior]

You're hilarious. You're trying to force us to accept the independence of Kosovo. Isn't that what's being discussed?

Nope, Im being realistic. Why should I force anyone to accept smth they dont want?




Yes, and Germany's WW2 leaders were also not saints, but the Greater German Reich is no modern Germany, just as the Republika Srpska of 1995 is not the Republika Srpska of 2007. Do you even understand how asinine you look when you make a point, that point is rebuffed, and then you pretend that it wasn't even your point in the first place?

Do I even need to quote you, to show you that 'they were' wasn't even tangentially what you were saying in your previous post?


Hey, its not even 12 years since the war ended and the same ppl massacred 8,000 men and boys are still alive today, yes protected by the Serbian government! For crying out loud stop taking WWII Germany as an excuse everyone should forgive and move on, go tell that to their families, no wonder EU wont start talking to you ppl befor you hand over them


More hilarity! So who proved Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic guilty, hmm? Where's the conviction, ever the fool?

Well lets see shall we, Milosevic escaped justice when he died befor the verdic came, thos two criminals are still at run? Do you ever think befor posting, no seriously?




You can sit there and wait until they are an absolute demographic majority in the region, and then you can lose the region, if they democratically decide to take your land by a democratic vote. And you probably wouldn't even fight for it.

Do you even listen to yourself what you are typing, why are you taking Sweden of all countries when Holland, Germany, France all have more places like Malmö, is it becasue Im from Sweden and you are trying to make me think how Serbs feelt when the majority in a province first lost their autonomy then when they tried to break away they where ethnic cleansed you got to be jokin rofl



I start to lose civility when I have to talk down at idiots. You've already called my comrades and I rapists, murderers and war criminals. Yet you're being civil?

Im sorry did I hurt your feelings, in my opinion yeah they are


Are you deaf? I fought in Kosovo during the 1998/1999 war as a soldier in the Vojska Jugoslavije (the Yugoslav Army). What makes you think your visits to Pristina and Dubrovnik have any purchase with me, who was there, and who experienced the things you blab about?

I didnt say I know more or experienced what happend to the place, but Im just saying what I know. If you seem to know more, your welcome to add. I have to admit the response you are giving is what Serbs around me say to their neighbors and the respone from me is what they say back, funny isnt how? Maybe I should invite them and you can have a debate, in that way you are all from same place. So what if you where there fighting in the war, you proud or smth, its not that you fought a real army mate

[AK-Lover]

Nope, Im being realistic. Why should I force anyone to accept smth they dont want?




Hey, its not even 12 years since the war ended and the same ppl massacred 8,000 men and boys are still alive today, yes protected by the Serbian government! For crying out loud stop taking WWII Germany as an excuse everyone should forgive and move on, go tell that to their families, no wonder EU wont start talking to you ppl befor you hand over them



Well lets see shall we, Milosevic escaped justice when he died befor the verdic came, thos two criminals are still at run? Do you ever think befor posting, no seriously?





Do you even listen to yourself what you are typing, why are you taking Sweden of all countries when Holland, Germany, France all have more places like Malmö, is it becasue Im from Sweden and you are trying to make me think how Serbs feelt when the majority in a province first lost their autonomy then when they tried to break away they where ethnic cleansed you got to be jokin rofl




Im sorry did I hurt your feelings, in my opinion yeah they are



I didnt say I know more or experienced what happend to the place, but Im just saying what I know. If you seem to know more, your welcome to add. I have to admit the response you are giving is what Serbs around me say to their neighbors and the respone from me is what they say back, funny isnt how? Maybe I should invite them and you can have a debate, in that way you are all from same place. So what if you where there fighting in the war, you proud or smth, its not that you fought a real army mate

When were you in Kosovo? Have you ever seen any real combat? Just interested since you seem to regard yourself on such a level as to allow yourself to insult other peoples service.

[Emperior]

July-sept 2004.

Closest combat I came to was my military exercise way up in Sweden called Lappland ..so no, I havent seen a real combat and I hope I dont have to see it either.

[asch]

what sources of information you use to making statements about all-around-bad-serbs and their victim neighbours?

[AK-Lover]

what sources of information you use to making statements about all-around-bad-serbs and their victim neighbours?

His several months experience in Kosovo.

[Emperior]

what sources of information you use to making statements about all-around-bad-serbs and their victim neighbours?


I think you misunderstood me, I dont have anything against Serbs, but I can say I dont agree with their leaders who manipulate their own ppl for a lost case just so they can rule the state. You propably saw it on the news the Serbian parliament elected Nikolic as the parliament speaker, tell me what does that say for the future of Serbia? Sources, facts from ppl who had an awful experience, yes from both sides..

Interesting article, http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=05&dd=09&nav_category=92&nav_id=41137

Ak-Lover, you still mad at me? cheer up mate!

[Dardanius]

what sources of information you use to making statements about all-around-bad-serbs and their victim neighbours?

I was in Kosova during the war and i have seen all the crimes serbs have committed against Albanians. Personally, i had a lot of friends killed alltogether with their families by serb chetnics the only reason being they were Albanians. Im sure the same thing wouldve happened in Croatia and Bosnia. Is that enough information?!

[asch]

I was in Kosova during the war and i have seen all the crimes serbs have committed against Albanians. Personally, i had a lot of friends killed alltogether with their families by serb chetnics the only reason being they were Albanians. Im sure the same thing wouldve happened in Croatia and Bosnia. Is that enough information?!

think about your possible credibility here.
we have a lot of jerks who screaming different proclamations here from time to time, but empty words have a weight only when filled with credible facts.

[Dardanius]

think about your possible credibility here.
we have a lot of jerks who screaming different proclamations here from time to time, but empty words have a weight only when filled with credible facts.
I wont try and convince you in any way because i know that thats impossible. You dont angree with me not because of the credibility of the information but rather because im Albanian, you think im just making this up and that the serbs were the real victims of the war. So its pointless proving my point to you if you havent already realised what has really happened in Kosova. If you show you facts, your response would be an echo of the answer ive heard from serbs and russians many times.
"Thats a western source and they were fiercely against the serb people therefore releasing a lot of desinformation during the war making serbs look like animals"
So i really dont see no point.

[asch]

I wont try and convince you in any way because i know that thats impossible. You dont angree with me not because of the credibility of the information but rather because im Albanian, you think im just making this up and that the serbs were the real victims of the war. So its pointless proving my point to you if you havent already realised what has really happened in Kosova. If you show you facts, your response would be an echo of the answer ive heard from serbs and russians many times.
"Thats a western source and they were fiercely against the serb people therefore releasing a lot of desinformation during the war making serbs look like animals"
So i really dont see no point.
the problem of people like you that you always ready to accuse others with racial or any other prejudices to make yourself right. this, considering the fact that you know nothing about me, make your entire post junk.

basically:

Asch: tell us facts.
Dardanius: "i really dont see no point"

good bye and have a nice something.

[AK-Lover]

I think you misunderstood me, I dont have anything against Serbs, but I can say I dont agree with their leaders who manipulate their own ppl for a lost case just so they can rule the state. You propably saw it on the news the Serbian parliament elected Nikolic as the parliament speaker, tell me what does that say for the future of Serbia? Sources, facts from ppl who had an awful experience, yes from both sides..

Interesting article, http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=05&dd=09&nav_category=92&nav_id=41137

Ak-Lover, you still mad at me? cheer up mate!

No I'm not mad. Well I'm lying I kind of am. Your arrogant, high-minded attitude is kind of pissing me off. You are from Sweden and you think you know whats good or not for my country. It's people like you that bring people like Nikolic to power.

[Dardanius]

No its people like you that think about sparking another war in Kosova are people that bring Nikolic to power! Because, wes the only one crazy enough to do it and sern people vote him. Its not like Swedish people get to vote whos going to be the next serbian president?! Stop blaming other nations for your own incapabilities! I would personally want to see a democratic serbia but its just not happening because of people like you who dwell on the past.

[AK-Lover]

No its people like you that think about sparking another war in Kosova are people that bring Nikolic to power! Because, wes the only one crazy enough to do it and sern people vote him. Its not like Swedish people get to vote whos going to be the next serbian president?! Stop blaming other nations for your own incapabilities! I would personally want to see a democratic serbia but its just not happening because of people like you who dwell on the past.

Well for a second you seemed one of the brighter cookies in the jar. But i guess not. So alas, let me break it down for you. People like him bring Nikolic to power, people not countries. People as in diplomats, specifically who still follow the 90's Clintonite policies in dramatically different Balkans and in an even more different world political situation. See Serbia is THE key nation in the area of the ex-Yugoslavia. Like it or not 8 million Serbs with industry and natural resources and the will to work are more important than 2 million loud-mouthed "Kosovar Albanians" who haven't done anything to improve the situation in "Kosova", which has become the Black hole of Europe. A center of unprecedented corruption and crime. The west is at tension with the new Russia as to who will vield the influence over this key nation, see they are holding one part of our country hostage and since their carrot cannot make us forget who we are or who are ancestors were they are attempting to implement a rather short stick. You (Albanians) another set of pawns on the chessboard and fortunately for you their (the US's) interests went hand in hand with your territorial ambitions. Am I going too fast for you?

Oh and your obviously not reading past Nikolic since we are talking about PS not President.

[Lokos]

Nope, Im being realistic. Why should I force anyone to accept smth they dont want?


So you want to force 'Kosova' on me because it's 'reality', but you don't want to force it on me. That's basically the gist of it? Schmuck.


Hey, its not even 12 years since the war ended and the same ppl massacred 8,000 men and boys are still alive today, yes protected by the Serbian government! For crying out loud stop taking WWII Germany as an excuse everyone should forgive and move on, go tell that to their families, no wonder EU wont start talking to you ppl befor you hand over them

Can you prove they're protected by the Serbian government? Like I said, if you can, go to the Hague. And no one gives a nickel about the EU, if it comes at the price of selling the last vestiges of your dignity for 'talks'.

BOTTOM LINE: Neither the leaders of the RS or Serbia are war criminals of any sort. Your point was stating the opposite. You attempted to deflect it by saying there were still war criminals in the countries in question who were at some point accused of war crimes - accusations never proven.

CONCLUSION: Stop talking out of your rear. Your primary point was defeated. Don't look more the idiot by pretending this new angle was where you were coming from, originally.


Well lets see shall we, Milosevic escaped justice when he died befor the verdic came, thos two criminals are still at run? Do you ever think befor posting, no seriously?

Do you? No, seriously. The question was convicted war criminals. Your answer: they escaped justice. Which STILL DOES NOT MAKE THEM CONVICTED WAR CRIMINALS. Verstehen sie? Understand? It's a very simple point. Comprehend it, move on.


is it becasue Im from Sweden and you are trying to make me think how Serbs feelt when the majority in a province first lost their autonomy then when they tried to break away they where ethnic cleansed you got to be jokin


I don't care how you feel. I'm giving you an analogous situation. But, hey, let's pretend I was actually predicting the future - why not?


Im sorry did I hurt your feelings, in my opinion yeah they are

In my opinion, you're not worth a hair on any of their heads. Sorry.


So what if you where there fighting in the war, you proud or smth, its not that you fought a real army mate

The Americans then shouldn't be proud of fighting in the Iraq War, yeah? It's not like they're fighting a real army, eh mate? Get stuffed. I apologize to the mods for the profanity, and if an infraction is forthcoming so be it. But that's the last time you get to say that a year of fighting a guerrilla war with an enemy numbering between 20,000 and 30,000 and getting bombed for two and a half months by the world's biggest operational gathering of strike craft doesn't constitute a real war. What would you know about 'real war', anyway, living up there in the socialist paradise of Sweden?


I was in Kosova during the war and i have seen all the crimes serbs have committed against Albanians

You saw all the crimes? Really? Pray tell, where were you living at the time?

Lokos

[kapela]

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=37

[Killerkai1]

I would like to know the Serb perspective on the Albanian claim that in 1913 they were the majority community in Kosovo and should not have been incorporated into Serbia, what was the Serb population in Kosovo at that time, because the Serbs were minorities, albeit large ones in places like Pec, Pristina, and the border should have been drawn to reflect that, this is the view of Miranda Vickers.

KK

[Vuk1389]

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=37
Yah i heard a Jewish radio where they were discussing that, and they got pretty mad for making it seem as they were from Yugoslavia(in other words you'd think Serbia) and not mention Kosovo Muslims/Albanians(their real identity). If the Serbs did something like that I'm pretty sure they wouldn't say from Former Yugoslavia.:-(