PDA

View Full Version : Army Finds Troop Supply 'Getting Thin'



army cadet_ngcsu
04-28-2004, 07:33 PM
By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

WASHINGTON - The Army could have a tough time finding more combat troops if they are needed in Iraq (news - web sites). Of the service's 10 active-duty divisions, all or parts of nine are either already in Iraq to serve 12-month tours of duty, or have just returned home in recent weeks after a year's duty.

If extra troops are needed, soldiers may get less time at home before going back, one top general says. The Army might also have to consider sending troops now in South Korea (news - web sites). National Guard and Reserve combat forces would simply take too long to train.


"It's getting thin," said Pat Towell, a defense expert at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.


It's not yet certain that U.S. commanders in Iraq will ask for more troops, beyond the 135,000 there now, although it appears increasingly likely with violence high. But if they do, the Army would have to resort to extreme measures to answer the call.


It would even be more difficult to keep the force at the current level beyond June or so, when 20,000 soldiers whose yearlong Iraq tours were extended by three months are due to go home. The Army has not said which units it would call upon if it must replace those 20,000 this summer.


The only Army division not now in Iraq or just returned is the 3rd Infantry Division. But it is not expecting to get the Iraq call again until about January 2005, since it already has done one grueling tour there. Its soldiers spent months training in the Kuwait desert before spearheading the Iraq invasion in March 2003 and capturing Baghdad, along with the 1st Marine Division, in April. The 3rd Infantry returned to its bases in Georgia late last summer and is in the midst of a top-to-bottom reorganization and refit.


Once reconfigured, the 3rd Infantry will have four combat brigades instead of three, a change that is to serve as a model for a "modular" Army with a larger number of brigades that can be deployed more rapidly — better suited to fight jointly with the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps.


Lt. Gen. Richard Cody, the Army deputy chief of staff for operations, said recently that the 3rd Infantry is scheduled to finish reorganizing by midsummer and could deploy after that if necessary.


Cody said that if extra troops are needed, the Army would have to abandon its goal of allowing soldiers at least one full year at their home station before going back to Iraq or Afghanistan (news - web sites).


The Army is relying heavily on National Guard and Reserve combat forces for the Iraq mission. But they require too much training to deploy extra units as early as this summer.


Looked at another way, the Army has 33 active-duty brigades within the 10-division structure. Of those 33 brigades, 27 are either in Iraq or Afghanistan or just returned home. Of the six others, three are in the 3rd Infantry, and two are on duty in South Korea.


The only other brigade not otherwise occupied is the 172nd Infantry Brigade, based at Fort Richardson and Fort Wainwright in Alaska. It is "waist deep" into a fundamental reorganization, spokesman Lt. Col. Ben Danner said, and has yet to receive its new warfighting Stryker vehicles, which travel on wheels rather than steel tracks and make the Army more agile.


That leaves several other possibilities, none of which the Army thought it would be facing at this point, nearly a full year after President Bush (news - web sites) declared major combat over last May 1.


Among the options:


_Send the 3rd Infantry back to Iraq ahead of schedule. Cody said the full division would not be ready in its reconfigured form until July at the earliest. But one of its brigades has been kept ready for a short-notice deployment in a crisis.


_Deploy the 1st Brigade of the 25th Infantry Division, which just completed training in its new configuration with Strykers, early. A brigade spokesman, Capt. Tim Beninato, said the unit has received no deployment order but is ready to go. The Army had planned to dispatch the 1st Brigade next fall, but could accelerate that.


_Send more elements of the 10th Mountain Division, which has been tapped extensively for Afghanistan and currently has some soldiers in Iraq. Another battalion just returned from Iraq after one year in combat.


_Take some troops from the main Army force permanently stationed in South Korea — the 2nd Infantry Division — and send them to Iraq. That would be a radical step, because the soldiers in South Korea have long been considered untouchable so long as communist North Korea (news - web sites) poses a threat.

_Use members of the 3rd Marine Expeditionary Force, based on the Japanese island of Okinawa, in Iraq, even though they normally are considered reinforcements for Korea.



http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&u=/ap/20040428/ap_on_re_us/iraq_stretched_thin_1&printer=1

army cadet_ngcsu
04-28-2004, 07:36 PM
I say let the South Koreans fend for themselves, they're all grown up now. We have bigger issues to take care of in Iraq.

Hellman109
04-28-2004, 07:46 PM
You cant let the south koreans fend for themselves.

If you were standing inbetween a baby and a wolf trying to eat it would you go "meh, might go home for some lunch", no you wouldnt.

Also, if it was attacked, then the US have a duty to defend it, and that would require far more troops then what are avaliable.

IMO the US should reduce the number of foreign bases, like one plan Ive seen where they close most or all of the bases in Germany except for Rammestein, that is a good plan, Germany are no longer Nazi and do not pose a danger of attacking Europe again (that is there politically and socially stable, not that they lack the forces), but keeping Rammestein secures a strong base for the US for much of Europe.

What about Japan aswell? they have ~40,000 troops there (Im not sure which units though), they need to keep a naval / airbase there, but hardly a large number of soldiers, Japan also do not pose much of a risk of attacking the US again anytime soon.

Maybe if they didnt want to give up there bases they could just drop them to skeleton crews, so they dont lose the land, but then have a larger pool in which to pull forces from.

Dennis G
04-28-2004, 07:59 PM
I say let the South Koreans fend for themselves, they're all grown up now. We have bigger issues to take care of in Iraq.

How many soldiers are in S. Korea?

FallenAngel
04-28-2004, 08:09 PM
What about Japan aswell? they have ~40,000 troops there (Im not sure which units though), they need to keep a naval / airbase there, but hardly a large number of soldiers, Japan also do not pose much of a risk of attacking the US again anytime soon.


Thank you Clinton. Slashing the Army from 18 to 10 divisions was REALLY smart. (yeah, yeah, 20/20 hind-sight, but who the hell slashes the most powerful army in the world IN HALF?!?)

I'm pretty sure most of that 40,000 are Marines stationed in Okinawa (3rd Marine Div.)

2nd Marine Division has yet to go to Iraq. You could send them.

2nd Inf. Division should be used. It's been said before that if the N. Koreans even make a half-hearted attempt to invade the south, the 2nd is to be a speed bump to allow reinforcements to arrive in the south.

There's also the 11th Cav.- I know they have to play the 'bad guys' at Ft. Irwin, but they are still an army unit are they not? ;)

What about the troops in the Balkans? The Germans don't want to go to Iraq, thats fine. They can handle their own backyard while the Americans are moved to Iraq.

And of course, the Iraqis could help out more. (what- 50% desertion when the uprising began? That's not good.)

FallenAngel
04-28-2004, 08:11 PM
I say let the South Koreans fend for themselves, they're all grown up now. We have bigger issues to take care of in Iraq.

How many soldiers are in S. Korea?

Two combat brigades it says in the article.

ZoneOne
04-28-2004, 08:11 PM
if we dont get organized -- the D word will come up again

first letter D - last letter RAFT

Hellman109
04-28-2004, 08:20 PM
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/maps/world/fullpage.troop.deployments/world.index.html

Where I got my numbers from.

37,000 in S. Korea according to that.

In hindsight cutting 18 down to 10 is bad, but that is hindsight, dont forget who chose to goto Iraq. But, where are those divisions now? surely you could re-recruit them, give them a refresher course and have them ready to go in ~6 months? Or where they not regulars or combat divisions?

FallenAngel
04-28-2004, 08:38 PM
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/maps/world/fullpage.troop.deployments/world.index.html

Where I got my numbers from.

37,000 in S. Korea according to that.

In hindsight cutting 18 down to 10 is bad, but that is hindsight, dont forget who chose to goto Iraq. But, where are those divisions now? surely you could re-recruit them, give them a refresher course and have them ready to go in ~6 months? Or where they not regulars or combat divisions?

Clinton cut down 8 regular division and six reserve divisions I believe.

It's not the people....we can always recruit more. It's the year of training and equipment that has to be supplied. (ex: one of units cut was the 3rd Armored. Do you know how many tanks an Armored division needs? It's close a a thousand I believe.)

nerdman
04-28-2004, 11:10 PM
There's also the 11th Cav.- I know they have to play the 'bad guys' at Ft. Irwin, but they are still an army unit are they not? ;)

Ha Ha Ha Ha. Nice. We need the 'Bad Guys'... to fight the bad guys. Lord knows they enough training, that's all they do. We should let them have a break and fight (oops "Peace Keep") in Iraq.

Porta_jon
04-28-2004, 11:41 PM
draft is a scary idea for me

JMooch
04-28-2004, 11:45 PM
"2nd Marine Division has yet to go to Iraq. You could send them."

WRONG!

2ndMARDIV was gutted to send Task Force Tarawa (2MEB) for OIF I. We are also supplying a beefed up battalion there now and have missions in four other AO's.

BTW, I MEF uses II MEF (and by extension 2ndMARDIV) as a body pool when they can't hit their manning levels. I'll leave it to you to put 2 and 2 together.
S/F
Mooch

American Patriot
04-28-2004, 11:47 PM
Why is the draft scary? You got a wife and kids? The Army can help you with that.

Seraphim
04-29-2004, 12:55 AM
The US troops in the demilitarized zone in Korea are going to be pulled back.

FallenAngel
04-29-2004, 02:24 AM
"2nd Marine Division has yet to go to Iraq. You could send them."

WRONG!

2ndMARDIV was gutted to send Task Force Tarawa (2MEB) for OIF I. We are also supplying a beefed up battalion there now and have missions in four other AO's.

BTW, I MEF uses II MEF (and by extension 2ndMARDIV) as a body pool when they can't hit their manning levels. I'll leave it to you to put 2 and 2 together.
S/F
Mooch

Thanks Mooch. Didn't know that...about the man-power pool part.

Are both Marine divisions that undermanned?

JMooch
04-29-2004, 08:04 AM
"Are both Marine divisions that undermanned?"

It's not that we're undermanned, you have to remember, the Corps is normally 179,000 and with Reserve activations maybe then only 199,000. That includes our Air Wing and Support elements besides triggerpullers.
You can only spread load people so far.

Take into account the I MEF force over in Iraq right now are almost completely intact from the one that was there for OIF I. So while all the Army/USAF folks were bitching that the Marines weren't/aren't being deployed to Iraq/Aghanistan at the same rate as the Army troops, most of those Marines are on their second rotation to each place. In fact I know of some that have pulled an Afghan tour, an Iraq tour and now are on their second swing through Iraq.

You just don't see Marines hitting the newsies and bitching about missions. Ask any Marine, they almost to a man would tell that they would rather pull consecutive operations then run through training cycles all the time. You are getting to put your warfighting skills to test for real that way. Of course its also easier to get burnt out that way as well.
Either way, I think both the Army/USAF/USMC will be pretty fried come 2006.
S/F
Mooch

Trident-za
04-29-2004, 02:13 PM
Either way, I think both the Army/USAF/USMC will be pretty fried come 2006.


Damn, thats hardly good news for world stability and the war on terror. Whats the solution?

Haiw
04-29-2004, 02:18 PM
Either way, I think both the Army/USAF/USMC will be pretty fried come 2006.


Damn, thats hardly good news for world stability and the war on terror. Whats the solution?
Increasing Navy manpower, as they seem to be spared in this quote... ;)

Abolith
04-29-2004, 02:23 PM
I thought I had just heard that the Navy was going to cut several thousand sailors and a number of ships.


Stupid government... :slap:

Maverick77
04-29-2004, 02:39 PM
This situation will lead to, in the next few years, the North Korean Army seeing an open door to attack the south. Although it will not really be open, without american forces there I feel the North would attack.

FallenAngel
04-29-2004, 03:43 PM
I thought I had just heard that the Navy was going to cut several thousand sailors and a number of ships.


Stupid government... :slap:

They aren't cutting really.

They are not INCREASING the number of ships....and the new ships planned will have smaller crews. (the new DDX will have only 125 sailors....about a third of what our destroyers carry already.)

Modernization allows you to do more with less- at least that's true for the Navy and Air Force to an extent. The Marines and Army need more ground-pounding infantry because you can't carpet bomb or Tomahawk some dude in a cave/ upstairs apartment. You need to send in infantry to get them.