German Army invests in "Skyshield" for camps in Afghanistan.

[Macs.]

Mehr Sicherheit im Einsatz
Berlin, 29.03.2007.

Die Bundeswehr investiert in den Schutz ihrer Soldaten im Einsatz. Bis Herbst 2009 sollen in Afghanistan zwei Systeme einsatzbereit sein, die anfliegende ungelenkte Raketen sowie Artillerie- und Mörsergranaten wirkungsvoll bekämpfen können.

Bisher gibt es gegen diese Bedrohung keinen wirksamen, aktiven Schutz, da bei sehr kurzer Reaktionszeit sehr kleine Ziele getroffen werden müssen. Ausgangsbasis des so genannten Nächstbereichschutz Counter Rocket, Artillery, Mortar (NBS C-Ram) wird voraussichtlich das Schweizer Flugabwehrsystem Skyshield, das aber weiter entwickelt werden muss.

Der Nächstbereichschutz für ortsfeste Einrichtungen wie Feldlager oder Flugplätze hat ein anderes Einsatzspektrum als das taktische Luftverteidigungssystem MEADS. Dieses soll Flugzeuge, Hubschrauber, Marschflugkörper und Raketen mit einer Reichweite bis zu 1.000 Kilometer bekämpfen.

http://tinyurl.com/2m89ut

In short: The German Army invests in two systems for the defence against unguided Rockets, Artillery and Mortars. The basis for this system will be "Skyshield" made by Oerlikon Contraves/Rheimetall. They should be fit for service in Afghanistan by fall 2009.



Skyshield features a modular design, flexible capabilities and a high level of automation as well as being easy to transport. A central sensor unit/C4I controls two 35 mm revolver guns and one or two missile launchers as an option.

http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/img/product/oc_skyshield.jpg

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/img/product/oc_f_3a.jpg
High-Res: http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/img/skyshield_45_gr.jpg

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/img/product/oc_f_3b.jpg

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/img/product/oc_f_3c.jpg

Skyshield is a modular (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular), light weight, short range air defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Short_range_air_defense&action=edit) (SHORAD) system developed by the Swiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss) corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation) Oerlikon Contraves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_Contraves). The successor to the Skyguard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_35_mm_twin_cannon) defense system, Skyshield is intended to rapidly acquire and destroy threatening aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft) and missiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missiles).
The weapons system itself consists of two 35 mm (1.38 inch) Revolver Cannons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver_cannon) with a rate of fire of 1,000 rounds per minute, a Fire Control System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-control_system) made up of a sensor unit and a detached command post. The Skyshield can also use up to two surface-to-air missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-to-air_missile) 8-cell modules for an expanded air defense capability. The Skyshield is designed for traditional anti-aircraft roles in addition to defense against missiles (see Anti-ballistic missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile)).

The Skyshield is easily deployed by trucks and other transportation systems. The fire control system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_control_system) (FCS) uses an X-band (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-band) search and tracking radar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar), and another unit for radar/TV and/or Laser/FLIR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLIR) precision tracking. The command post (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_post) can be placed up to 500 meters from the fire control unit (FCU). The Skyshield system can also be networked with other air defense systems for wider and more effective air coverage, expanding its roles from point defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-defence) to area defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area-defence).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyshield

[Mamont]

In short: The German Army invests in two systems for the defence against unguided Rockets, Artillery and Mortars.
Judging from the look of it - a good target for the .50cal sniper rifle.
Another thing - safety and collateral damage while intercepting low flying projectiles...

[usa320]

I believe the rounds fragment in the air and therefore little if anything falls down to earth.

[JoaMei]

It uses airbursting Bullets releasing preformed Tungsten Fragments:

http://www.defense-update.com/images/ahead.jpg

And so far nothing or nobody was ever hit with a .50 cal Sniper rifle in that area and particular in the camp at all.

[Mamont]

It uses airbursting Bullets releasing preformed Tungsten Fragments
That's obvious. And does not deny possibility of casualties and damage.
About .50cals - conflict is escalating and is far from end, so it's possible, that talibans wouldl aquire new and potent weapons. And in the wake of such system about to be deployed they'll try, no doubt.

Interesting, is this system capable of intercepting projectiles like russian S-5? Any believable data about reaction time and target interception diagrams?

[toki]

That's obvious. And does not deny possibility of casualties and damage.
About .50cals - conflict is escalating and is far from end, so it's possible, that talibans wouldl aquire new and potent weapons. And in the wake of such system about to be deployed they'll try, no doubt.

Interesting, is this system capable of intercepting projectiles like russian S-5? Any believable data about reaction time and target interception diagrams?

And your solution would be? Forgetting the system? I'm not sure why you are trying to find out any negative aspect, while it is said the system will be operational in Afghanistan in 2009. Means: It is not fully developed yet. I just see the positive side of it.
Are you so much of an expert that you know how it will work in 2 years?
Danger of snipers? OK, there should be measures against it. People are not that stupid. It's obvious that no system provides 100% safety.

[JoaMei]

Shaddock (S-5) is a cruise Missile and can be easily intercepted by the System.

Fighter aircraft/attack helicopters > 3.5 km
Guided missiles/cruise missiles > 2.0 km
Anti-radiation missiles > 1.2 km


It is the most capable CIWS on the Market today, also available for naval applications.

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?fid=1570&lang=3&pdb=1

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?fid=2050&lang=3&pdb=1

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/index.php?fid=1550&lang=3&pdb=1


The only problem so far is, the Tungsten Fragments of the normal air defence rounds are well capable to penetrate Helicopters, Aircrafts and Cruise missels but not the heavy steel shells of artillery.

A specialised CRAM version with larger Fragments is in development.


About .50 cal Rifles, the normal illiteral Taliban is to stupid to use a high calibered sniper rifle at higher ranges. This needs a lot of training and experience, and the equipment is expensive and heavy.

[Mamont]

And your solution would be? Forgetting the system? I'm not sure why you are trying to find out any negative aspect, while it is said the system will be operational in Afghanistan in 2009. Means: It is not fully developed yet. I just see the positive side of it.
You're making wrong assumptions. The system is fine by itself, but it's operational use could and would create problems. If the firing system components(cannons) are located on the perimeter of the objective of defence, than thay need additional protection from possible damage by light arms fire and rpg-type rockets, thus ether it will be armored, slowing turret rotation, hindering aiming(bigger weight, inertia, requires more powerfull engines to rotate), or will require prepared positions like ground walls, shelters or such. And so on. If they are located inside perimeter, than precision, reaction time and re-aiming time is crusial, as the system must protect from possibly massive strike and not harm anyone within perimeter. And with 200 rounds per gun it's quite possible to overcome it with sheer number of projectiles. Interesting again how many guns can simultaneously aim at one and different targets, how many guns can one fire-control unit serve and other things. And interesting how FCU would work in Afgan terrain, as it is quite different from european. Does it needs to be place higher for instance? Can it operate in urban areas and if yes with what success?



Are you so much of an expert that you know how it will work in 2 years?
No, i'm just curious about it's capabilities.



Danger of snipers? OK, there should be measures against it. People are not that stupid. It's obvious that no system provides 100% safety.
Yes, but if the system itself needs protection by patrolling groups, than it's effectiveness is questioned...


Shaddock (S-5) is a cruise Missile and can be easily intercepted by the System.
You're mistaken, i mean unguided rocket S-5 as part of UB-16-57 pod. I saw that talibans used old russian pods B-8M1 with S-8 rockets from downed helos.



The only problem so far is, the Tungsten Fragments of the normal air defence rounds are well capable to penetrate Helicopters, Aircrafts and Cruise missels but not the heavy steel shells of artillery.

Didn't they mix loadout with other types?



About .50 cal Rifles, the normal illiteral Taliban is to stupid to use a high calibered sniper rifle at higher ranges. This needs a lot of training and experience, and the equipment is expensive and heavy.
Those stupid talibans holding out preatty long, aren't they? And things are going in a way that to counteract them such expensive systems are about to be deployed. So i wouldn't underestimate them. And those rifles will be handed not to the normal talibans than.. :) They used Stingers, they'll learn to use .50's..

[Andreas]

Can theis system be reconfiured to intercept the c-unts who keep stealing my parking spot outside my appartment?

[Exer]

Can theis system be reconfiured to intercept the c-unts who keep stealing my parking spot outside my appartment?

Would be alot easier to stand there with a assault rifle ready wouldnt it?

[JDZ]

About .50 cal Rifles, the normal illiteral Taliban is to stupid to use a high calibered sniper rifle at higher ranges. This needs a lot of training and experience, and the equipment is expensive and heavy.

Actually you’re right the 12,7mm sniper threat is stupid. I mean you also don’t get rid of radios, because antennas are great targets.
But there is a great sniping tradition in A-Stan. The Soviets had great problems with that and as far as I know the mujs got some Mk82 by the CIA in the 80s. So they have the potential to use high calibre sniping weapons. You shouldn’t underestimate their abilities.
But saying that you can’t employ radar for airdefence is nonsense.

[JoaMei]

You're mistaken, i mean unguided rocket S-5 as part of UB-16-57 pod. I saw that talibans used old russian pods B-8M1 with S-8 rockets from downed helos.

Its well capable of hitting them, the capabillity to hit incoming guided Bombs, Mortar rounds, Artillery shells and unguided rockets was prooven. But there were some problems to knock them out even when hit because of the lightweight fragments. But they always scored multiple hits on the targets.


Didn't they mix loadout with other types?

No, compared to othere CIWS the whole effect is based on the higher caliber airbursting capabillities because of the slower rate of fire compared to gatling guns. Sabot type ammo is available but its more for larger ground and aerial targets, rockets like the ones you mentioned are to small and difficult to hit.

The new german IFV Puma for example uses the AHEAD Round for soft ground targets.

[Mamont]

Its well capable of hitting them, the capabillity to hit incoming guided Bombs, Mortar rounds, Artillery shells and unguided rockets was prooven. But there were some problems to knock them out even when hit because of the lightweight fragments. But they always scored multiple hits on the targets.

S-8 had a diameter of 8cm. Preatty small area to hit, even if lenght is 1,5м. Density of fragments must be really high.. No info on estimated number of rounds per typical target?

[JoaMei]

Like with every defense Project its hard to get infos like that.

You have to remember the AHEAD principle works different compared to other airburst concepts. The Subprojectiles are not ejected to the sides but in direction of firing, so the effect is similar to a shotgun not like HE-Frag.

[Flummox]

Yes, but if the system itself needs protection by patrolling groups, than it's effectiveness is questioned...
It's inside a base/camp...



They used Stingers, they'll learn to use .50's..

Skyshield protects against indirect fire... You can hide it from direct fire, but it can still shoot on incoming mortar.


And with 200 rounds per gun it's quite possible to overcome it with sheer number of projectiles.
Reloading?


No info on estimated number of rounds per typical target?


Sadly I have no info on that.
But the system of Skyshield should make it efficient. There are 3 rings on the end of the barrel. The 2 first mesure the initial speed of the bullet, the 3rd "engraves" this v0 in the bullet and programs the distance at which it will explode. So it should explode only very shortly before the incoming round and do as much damage as possible.

And if it really doesn't work on all incoming rounds it is still better than nothing.

[IsraDani]

I heard very good comments about this system.
The IDF evaluated it for create an anti qassam shield, then we went for an indigenous IMI project.
Skyshield should be very good intercepting rocket and missiles in a short area, or larger thanks to the multi control system of the FCU.
The FAE interception system with the relase of the Tungsten should remove any threat of large debris.